Proof Of Warmer Earlier Climate! Swiss Geologist Studies 10,800-Year Old Tree Trunk Under Alps Glacier

Reposted from NoTricksZone

By P Gosselin on 17. January 2021

Previously hidden under a Swiss glacier, a 10,800-year old tree trunk was discovered and tells us the Alps were much warmer in the early Holocene than today.

Online SRF Swiss Broadccasting recently reported on a fascinating find in the Swiss Alps: a more than 10,000 year old tree trunk that had been until recently buried under the Morteratsch Glacier.

University of Bern Professor Emeritus Christian Schlüchter says 10,800 year old larch tree trunk found under glacier Alps means it had to be warmer 10,800 years ago than today. Image: cropped from EIKE.

In 2018 renowned Swiss geologist Christian Schlüchter received a tip from the local forester of the exciting find that had been revealed by the retreating Morteratsch glacier. But this specimen was unusual in the sense it was some 2 meters long and included the rootstock. Moreover, it also was astonishingly intact, and even included some bark.

The SRF site features photos.

The unusual good condition of the larch tree trunk meant that it must not have been transported downward by the glacier, and thus not ground up in the process. This means its resting location had to be very close to where it had originally grown.

The SRF reported:

‘This is unique,’ says Schlüchter, saying he has never discovered anything like it in the Alps. With wood finds, he says, there is always one central question: ‘How far from the site did the trees grow, how far did the glacier transport them?’

A tree in this condition must have stood in the immediate vicinity, otherwise the trunk would look different, Schlüchter says.”

Schlüchter, a professor emeritus at the University of Bern, has been studying glacier wood for decades.

10,800 years ago, lived 337 years

According to Schlüchter, the original larch tree had lived 337 years before it died and the glacier buried it. Research shows that the larch started growing about 10,800 years ago, less than 1000 years after the last ice age ended.

The finding tells us that there used to be forests where glaciers are found today, which means the “Morteratsch glacier was once much smaller than it is today,” reports the SRF. The region was obviously warmer than today.

Rapid climate change 10,500 years ago

Schlüchter also points out that barely 1,000 years after the end of the ice age, there were already larches up there. Schlüchter says: “That shows the unheard-of dynamics we see here.”

More studies will be conducted on the tree specimen and parts of the large trunk will be on display in the museum in Pontresina in the future, writes the SRF.

=================================
Christian Schlüchter is Professor emeritus for Quaternary Geology and Paleoclimatology at the University of Bern in Switzerland. He has authored/co-authored over 250 papers.

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ResourceGuy
January 17, 2021 2:05 pm

Call it the Ice Mann Tree.

observa
Reply to  ResourceGuy
January 18, 2021 6:31 am
ResourceGuy
Reply to  observa
January 18, 2021 12:26 pm

I like yours better.

mothcatcher
Reply to  observa
January 18, 2021 12:43 pm

Well, yes.
There’s plenty of evidence for a lack of glaciation in the broader period discussed, but just one thing. It’s one tree only on this occasion. I guess someone has checked that the glacier put it there, rather than some deceitful human agency? The most earnest and dedicated scientists are the most easily fooled.

EppingBlogger
Reply to  mothcatcher
January 19, 2021 2:39 am

Do you have ready access to a stock of 10,000 year old tree stumps?

January 17, 2021 2:17 pm

I remember to have been there about 40 years ago, a very nice region, and a much larger glacier. There was a hole under the ice at the end of the glacier, high enough to enter and see some coming meltwater.

Jean Parisot
January 17, 2021 2:17 pm

They will just flip inconvenient data like this upside down.

M Courtney
Reply to  Jean Parisot
January 17, 2021 3:55 pm

For the curious, this is a reference to Tiljander.

David Kamakaris
January 17, 2021 2:38 pm

That zealot nyolci won’t like hearing about this. Sooooo looking forward to hearing from you.

MarkW
Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 17, 2021 5:38 pm

He’ll just proclaim that this only means that this hill in Switzerland was warmer for a few years back then. The rest of the planet was definitely colder. The models have spoken, all hail the sacred models.

Loydo
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2021 7:05 pm

Maybe it is warmer now, or do glaciers just vanish overnight?

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 7:46 pm

Even by your cosmically low standards, that was a pathetic comeback.

Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 8:16 pm

Actually Loydo, some mighty evil oil baron came out in the dark of night, lifted up the glacier, and put the tree under it.

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 17, 2021 8:36 pm
fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 8:34 pm

That’s utterly moronic….. even by your standards , loy-satte.

Glaciers have been declining basically since the end of the LIA.

All sorts of human and tree artifacts have been found under retreating glacier.

Do you think those trees grew while the glacier was on top of them. Are you really that dumb.!!

Many European glaciers DID NOT EXIST during the MWP and earlier, they are a feature just of the LIA.

Even with the gradual warming , out of the coldest period in 10,000 years, the Swiss glaciers still follow inversely with the AMO pattern as they advance and retreat..

comment image

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
Meab
Reply to  fred250
January 18, 2021 8:33 am

Not just European glaciers, the glaciers in the Grand Tetons in Wyoming are known to have regrown from zero during the LIA. The MWP was global.

Reply to  Meab
January 18, 2021 9:20 am

Same with Glacier National Park. Most alpine/valley glaciers formed after the Holocene Climatic Optimum during neoglaciation. The retreat that the alarmists are cackling about is from their maximum Holocene extent in the mid-1800’s.

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 18, 2021 11:16 am

Are you really that dumb.!!’

That was rhetorical, right?

David A
Reply to  fred250
January 18, 2021 1:10 pm

Besides if Anything that tree grew at a higher colder elevation, as in general glaciers do not flow up hill.

Redge
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 11:18 pm

A better come back would have been:

“Yes, but that’s just one tree in a big world”

Wait a minute….

Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Redge
January 18, 2021 10:12 am

😇🤣………

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 4:15 am

Nah, it’s the prayers of the priests in the LIA finally working

observa
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 6:56 am

Well Loydo Australia did produce black swans and we have got snow gums so there is a chance you might find find the ice gums you’re looking for. Is that a definite ‘maybe’ of yours we can quote?

David Kamakaris
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 8:58 am

Sorry Loydo. Guess I should have mentioned you along with nyolci. I’ll remember next time.

MarkW
Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 18, 2021 11:17 am

Loydo isn’t worth remembering.

ATheoK
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 6:13 pm

Maybe it is warmer now, or do glaciers just vanish overnight?”

Incredible lack of reading comprehension and an utter failure to understand what the “tree trunk that had been until recently buried under the Morteratsch Glacier.” means.

It means, lolly, that trees were growing for over “337 yearsat that altitude in the early Holocene.

Nor should one overlook where that larch seed originated. Quite likely from a forest growing at that altitude.

Alarmist claims that modern weather is the Holocene’s warmest?
Busted! Not that those claims ever held any water.
comment image?dl=0

Loydo
Reply to  ATheoK
January 20, 2021 12:52 am

Or…. maybe you’ve just credulously accepted Gosselin’s frankly silly headline as being gospel truth; because it confirms your bias. Despite the fact Christian Schlüchter the actual author of the paper says nothing of the kind. You are not alone.

Suddenly one tree is “proof” of something…and look the conga line ‘skeptics’ froth at the mouth like its some kind of heresy if someone questions it. Sad really.

Reply to  Loydo
January 20, 2021 6:06 am

The 10,800 year old Larch tree was found under Morteratsch glacier.

The only portion of the Alps with ice at the time was the Colle Gnifetti saddle…

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-77518-9

While the Alps’ glaciers have retreated from their Holocene maxima at the end of neoglaciation, the Alps were mostly ice-free up until 5-6 thousand years ago.

Loydo
Reply to  David Middleton
January 20, 2021 2:19 pm

 “…the Alps were mostly ice-free up until 5-6 thousand years ago.”

So what?

Reply to  Loydo
January 20, 2021 2:35 pm

It’s “Proof Of Warmer Earlier Climate!” You know… The title of this post that you were ignorantly criticizing…

Or…. maybe you’ve just credulously accepted Gosselin’s frankly silly headline as being gospel truth; because it confirms your bias. Despite the fact Christian Schlüchter the actual author of the paper says nothing of the kind. You are not alone.

Suddenly one tree is “proof” of something…and look the conga line ‘skeptics’ froth at the mouth like its some kind of heresy if someone questions it. Sad really.

Loydo
Reply to  David Middleton
January 20, 2021 10:17 pm

Um, no it is not “proof”.

How long would it take Europe to become glacier free if average global temperatures rose a further 2C overnight?

Reply to  Loydo
January 21, 2021 1:01 am

That’s more moronic than your previous comments.

The Holocene Climatic Optimum and subsequent neoglaciation are “Proof Of Warmer Earlier Climate!”.

Loydo
Reply to  David Middleton
January 21, 2021 4:44 am

Dificult to combat willful blindness, good luck with it, but I’ll answer for you; about a 100 years. Thats right, it could easily be warmer now but there is a lag in glacier melt. It took three thousand years of warming to reach the Holocene optimum.

Reply to  Loydo
January 21, 2021 6:28 am

What may or may not happen in the future is irrelevant to the fact that the early to mid Holocene was warmer than it is today.

January 17, 2021 2:49 pm

This is very interesting, because it would seem to predate what is generally thought to have been the warmest part of the Holocene, the mid-Holocene Climate Optimum (HCO).

The HCO, in turn, is thought to have averaged several degrees cooler than the warmest part of the Eemian interglacial.
comment image

It is very clear that the warmth of the current climate optimum is not unprecedented.

Reply to  Dave Burton
January 18, 2021 12:27 pm

Dave
Correct. The existence of the Eemian interglacial is one of many arguments that – just by themselves – entirely refute climate CO2 warming alarmism.

Richard (the cynical one)
January 17, 2021 3:01 pm

This evidence will either be buried under a pc pr snow job, or under the coming glaciers. Either way, inconvenience will be avoided.

To bed B
Reply to  Richard (the cynical one)
January 17, 2021 3:25 pm

It’s evidence of what will happen if the globe continues to warm to unprecedented levels – larch forests instead of glaciers.

Is that what you want? (Doesn’t sound so bad to myself. Those unprecedented times seem a lot nicer).

fred250
Reply to  To bed B
January 17, 2021 4:59 pm

StephenP
Reply to  To bed B
January 17, 2021 11:50 pm

They’re worried about their skiing holidays.

hiskorr
Reply to  Richard (the cynical one)
January 19, 2021 6:02 am

Most likely it will just be ignored, like the tree that was found growing through many strata that supposedly represent many millions of years duration.

January 17, 2021 3:03 pm

David Attenborough has just this evening in the BBC’s latest wildlife series “A Perfect Planet”, made a series of false claims of unfolding climate catastrophe. He stated:

– global temperature has changed by less than one degree over the last 10,000 years. FALSE. It’s changed by 3-6 degrees since the Holocene optimum. “Optimum” means warm, not cold.

– Human CO2 emission could raise global temperature up to 2100 by 5 degrees C. FALSE

– Storms are becoming more intense – a tornado in the background as he said it implying tornadoes increasing in intensity. FALSE

– Wildfires becoming more frequent and deadly due to human CO2. FALSE. Wildfires are becoming more frequent because (a) eco fascists are stopping forest management and (b) ecofascists are lighting the fires 🔥 themselves

– Human CO2 is making all aspects of weather such as drought occurrence and timing of monsoons more variable in a way damaging to wildlife. FALSE. There is no evidence for this.

Has DA never heard of chaos? OK so half of WUWT don’t like chaos either since it upsets Astro theories but never mind. Weather and climate are fundamentally chaotic and DA’s assertions are meaningless nonsense.

The BBC are trying to make us believe that the world was a tranquil garden of Eden before 1850, with no weather and no climate, just a benign unchanging green fog.

Nice timing in Biden’s inauguration week. The Empire strikes back!

Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 3:19 pm

😀
“– Human CO2 is making all aspects of weather such as drought occurrence and timing of monsoons more variable in a way damaging to wildlife.”

This guy never heard about high and low pressure systems, their origins, their different impacts everywhere, ocean cycles, I could continue hours typing all weather relevant origins on earth, or does he really believe, these yearly around 3% of human CO2 are responsible ?
DA is a liar or as stupid as one meter of a dirt road.

Last edited 6 months ago by Krishna Gans
To bed B
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 17, 2021 3:27 pm

A few too many trips over corrugated roads before decent shock absorbers.

Notanacademic
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 17, 2021 4:25 pm

I think stupid liar sums him up quite nicely.

Jim Veenbaas
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 17, 2021 4:31 pm

According to NASA, the number of forest fires has been decreasing since 2000. Quit calling them wild fires please.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 17, 2021 5:05 pm

Dumber than a hoe handle.

Nick Graves
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 18, 2021 12:28 am

Where he originates, they say “soft as shit – and twice as nasty”.

Mickey Reno
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 18, 2021 6:18 am

If MY life depended on knowing something about nature, and I could ask a either a bag of hammers or David Attenborough, I’d ask the bag of hammers. I know the bag of hammers wouldn’t lie to me.

Joseph Campbell
Reply to  Mickey Reno
January 18, 2021 8:37 am

Belly laugh! “Bag of Hammers” indeed…

ATheoK
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 18, 2021 6:46 pm

DA is a liar or as stupid as one meter of a dirt road.”

David Attenborough is an actor proselytizing his religious belief that demonizes humans.
Well, except for attenborough’s fellow frauds and alarmists. According to attenborough, their cause allows them to lie, cheat, falsify video all without fault.

Calling attenborough a liar implies that attenborough belongs in limbo instead of residing for eternity in the 9th circle of hades.

Voltron
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 5:31 pm

I quite liked David for most of my youth. In time however, I realised that he was just a voice and kindly grandfather figure. If you read his book “A life on air” I think thats what it was, basically as an editor at the bbc, he was very clear as to what he wanted people to see and what should not be seen. Its no different now.

Redge
Reply to  Voltron
January 17, 2021 11:22 pm

He’s definitely on something. I’m not sure it’s air anymore

Fran
Reply to  Voltron
January 18, 2021 10:33 am

I find men (and some women) with over modulated voices creepy. I never could see why people liked Brian Mulroney’s voice, and our current provincial health officer, Bonny Henry has the female equivalent. Perhaps its an allergy to the Christian sermons heard in youth.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 5:45 pm

Noble Cause Corruption from the beknighted one.

philincalifornia
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 5:51 pm

The world is devolving into a collection of Monty Python sketches:

Nick Graves
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 18, 2021 12:30 am

Nah – the Pythons would have dismissed the current world as being too absurd to be funny.

Tombstone Gabby
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 5:57 pm

since the Holocene optimum. “Optimum” means warm, not cold.

At least one archaeology text book refers to the Holocene “Altithermal” – ‘when parts of North America were probably not habitable’.

saveenergy
Reply to  Tombstone Gabby
January 18, 2021 3:47 am

‘when parts of North America were probably not habitable’.

That’s true today…mainly the inner city’s

Reply to  Tombstone Gabby
January 18, 2021 12:22 pm

TG
There was a brief deep cooling episode about 8.3 kya – is that the “Antithermal”? The warm optimum was about 6 kya.

Tombstone Gabby
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 18, 2021 6:40 pm

Whoops – “A l t i” not “A n t i” thermal. (When all else fails, blame the font.)

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 17, 2021 8:41 pm

“Weather and climate are fundamentally chaotic and DA’s assertions are meaningless nonsense.”

It is one of a handful of bromides about weather we feel obliged to state for some reason. Actually the weather is doing what it has always done. There are no new things happening. In the tropics you can set your watch by the onset of afternoon rains. Farmers plant their crops within the same calendar week most years -including areas relying on monsoons. We brace ourselves for hurricanes which always come from the same direction and during the same months. We plan our skiing holiday to our favorite mountain long before the snow flies. Global Temps are within a degree or two over thousand of years…

DA’s assertions are meaningless nonsense precisely because nothing new is happening.

Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 18, 2021 5:40 am

Weather is chaotic? I would guess at cyclic with strange attractor/s.

Sara
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 18, 2021 6:19 am

Well, I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: all these brilliant individuals like Davey Attenborough could dramatically reduce the CO2 load in the atmosphere by doing one simple thing: get their mouths sewn shut. Politicians, too – they really violate the Laws of Mother Nature every time they start yakking. And news people? As long as they’re in a studio, their CO2 load can be cleaned up and recycled and the O2 released, but if they’re on the street doing reporting, they just pump it up.

I may get some tee shirts printed with that advice on them. Or even simpler: Reduce CO2: stop talking!

Just an idea that could save the environment, or something like that.

TheLastDemocrat
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 18, 2021 9:21 am

A prediction about the future cannot be false.
It may not be well-founded, but it cannot be false.
“Science” is a matter of developing a hypothesis about how material and forces interact in our material, mechanistic world. To overly simplify, we know water will freeze at 32 degrees, and paper burns at 451 degrees.

By using hypothetico-deductive reasoning, and depending on definitions and examining genuine outcomes, we use the scientific process to understand how the physical world around us works.
All of this has nothing to do with the future. A prediction can be well-founded, but cannot, logically, be “true” or “false.”

We can use scientifically developed knowledge to make predictions, forecasts, projections. But we are doing more than just science. We are going further, based on logic and reason. Extrapolation being a type of reasoning.

History only happens once. We can look back and argue about whether slavery was a cause of the Civil War. This does not generalize to any general principal about the physical world in which we live, such as “any nation with slavery will have a civil war over slavery.” It doesn’t work like that.

So, we have to recognize that Science is limited, and to develop acceptable, likely explanations about the past, or the future, we are largely using logic and reason, not science.

Eric Vieira
Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 20, 2021 2:01 am

The Empire? … I thought it was the swamp…

noaaprogrammer
January 17, 2021 4:12 pm

“Previously hidden under a Swiss glacier, a 10,800-year old tree trunk was discovered and tells us the Alps were much warmer in the early Holocene than today.”

Hannibal and his elephants could have told them that.

MarkW
Reply to  noaaprogrammer
January 17, 2021 6:01 pm

I believe the Holocene pre-dates Hannibal by several thousand years.

Ed Zuiderwijk
Reply to  MarkW
January 18, 2021 4:44 am

Hannibal’s exploits were during the Roman optimum, at least 1 degree warmer than today, with the snow limit in the Alps higher than even today. Many now still hidden passes would have been, eh, passable.

Gunga Din
Reply to  noaaprogrammer
January 18, 2021 8:33 am

But since Hannibal didn’t have any thermometers, there is no proof it was warmer back then.
The fact that he got some elephants across the Alps only proves that the Woolly Mammoth was not yet extinct in North Africa (or at least in Carthage).
A little tree ring told me so.
(Now where did I put that sarc tag ….)

Pat from kerbob
January 17, 2021 4:26 pm

Doesn’t matter if it is close to original location

If such trees are usually carted by the glacier so distance that can only be from a higher point

So these trees exposed by glaciers inevitably end up being from even higher up the mountain meaning ever warmer

Jackie Pratt
January 17, 2021 4:29 pm

So cool. And 337 years old. I guess it died because of of the catastrophic climate conditions from AGW (a glacier’s wrath).

leitmotif
January 17, 2021 4:34 pm

This news has been on CNN, BBC and Sky UK all evening.

I think it will run to the end of the week.;)

RickWill
January 17, 2021 4:43 pm

The stump now able to release more carbon into the atmosphere as it decays unless it gets preserved of course.

Think of how much carbon was buried under ice that extended from Texas to Italy across the northern land masses.

Once the northern hemisphere moves into glaciation mode it can accumulate ice at a tremendous rate reducing sea surface level by 7mm/yr. Lots of forests locked up in short time and all that decaying matter no longer exposed to the atmosphere. No wonder there is a surge in CO2 after the ice recedes.

The tropical oceans would need to have excess heat input around 1W/sq.m to deliver all the water into the atmosphere to be deposited as ice on land in the northern hemisphere.

shrnfr
January 17, 2021 5:56 pm

This just shows you that the whole CAGW thing is out to larch.

Tony
January 17, 2021 5:57 pm

Many critics of this site suggest it picks up unrepresentative studies, or single data points, contrary to the vast bulk of pro AGW evidence. They suggest it and then promotes these studies, as if they proves anything.

Hint: They don’t.

Mike
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 6:51 pm

”contrary to the vast bulk of pro AGW evidence”

What the hell is pro AGW evidence? Where is this vast bulk? Show us.

But before you do, please see……

”Scientific evidence is evidence that serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be EMPIRICAL…

(empirical………
……based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.)

……evidence and interpretable in accordance with scientific method”

**********************************

”Hint They don’t”.

They don’t prove anything? So this tree does not prove it was warmer 10,000 years ago in this area?
Is that what you’re saying?

Last edited 6 months ago by Mike
Loydo
Reply to  Mike
January 17, 2021 7:14 pm

“So this tree does not prove it was warmer 10,000 years ago in this area?
Is that what you’re saying?”

Pretty much sums it up. It’s warming rapidly, how long does it take for a glacier to melt?

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 7:52 pm

So the fact that the temperature was warmer than today long enough for an entire forest full of multi-hundred year old trees to grow means nothing to you?

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 8:48 pm

You really have to do some research, gain some basic knowledge and understanding so you stop typing such moronic sentences, loy-dumb

Yes, it was quite a bit warmer.

TREES grew where trees can’t grow now.

Do..

.. you

.. under-

.. stand !!

A lot of those glaciers DID NOT EXIST before the LIA.

Glaciers have been retreating spasmodically since the end of the coldest period in 10,000 years.

In the Swiss Alps, in line with the AMO

comment image

Mt Baker (USA) glaciers also follow the AMO

comment image

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 9:02 pm

“It’s warming rapidly,”

NO , its not. !

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
Chris Hanley
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 9:54 pm

“… how long does it take for a glacier to melt? …”.
The Wiki link above says:
‘ Yearly length change measurements [of Morteratsch Glacier] have been recorded since 1878. For the period to 1998, the overall retreat was over 1.8 km (1.1 mi)’.
Anyway it’s not about the glacier, it’s about the tree.
On Google Earth there is no sign of vegetation in the bed within about one km of the glacier terminus nor mature trees within ~2km.
You can get a street view from the road at Al Vadret Swisslodge and there is one closer view along an access track.

Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 1:55 am

Loydo
How’s the Jacobshavn glacier (largest one in Greenland) doing these days?

John Tillman
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 2:28 am

The glacier has been retreating for over 300 years, since the depths of the LIA during the Maunder Minimum.

If you knew anything at all about Alpine glaciers, you’d know that they advanced to threaten Swiss villages in the 17th century.

fred250
Reply to  John Tillman
January 18, 2021 3:50 am

“If you knew anything”

That is where Loy-dumb misses out..

EVERY time !

He/she/it is probably the most ignorant AGW groveller to ever post on any blog, anywhere.

Enrico
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 2:47 am

This Loydo character might do himself a favor by attending some classes Glaciology at universities in Austria or Switzerland.
In the early eighties of last century, I did my training for mountain guide near Innsbruck, Tyrol (Austria) with a professor in Glaciology. During the long days of hiking and climbing glaciers and peaks I learned a lot about past climates, that actually laid the foundation for my climate-realism.

Lrp
Reply to  Enrico
January 18, 2021 11:07 am

Loydo is waiting for snow in Townsville, QLD, all dressed up in parka, snow shoes, etc.

fred250
Reply to  Enrico
January 18, 2021 12:04 pm

(Snipped) SUNMOD

(Better to stay on topic, leave out the unwarranted personal insults) SUNMOD

Last edited 6 months ago by Sunsettommy
Loydo
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 2:58 am

Oh woe, the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the unskeptical believers when their echo-chamber factoid is questioned.

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 3:36 am

Again, the TOTALLY EMPTY waste of space that is Loy DUMB.

You haven’t questioned ANYTHING, just displayed your monuMENTAL ignorance.

You have NO FACTS.

You have NO SCIENCE

You are an embarrassment even to the ignorance of AGW cultist worms.

David Yaussy
Reply to  fred250
January 18, 2021 4:26 am

Fred, responding to Loydo with capitalized insults and vituperation only makes skeptics look unhinged. He serves a purpose here – he makes the warmist case, and reasonable people respond with rebuttals that have done a lot to educate me. We are never going to persuade Loydo of anything, but we should use his presence to educate ourselves rather than engage in name-calling and sneers.

fred250
Reply to  David Yaussy
January 18, 2021 5:02 am

Sure… let’s all just roll over and be polite to the AGW scammers, shall we.

Bow and curtsy, is that is what you want to do. !

Loy doesn’t make ANY case… never has..

He/she/it has nothing to offer….. period.

Here is a reminder of the board policy, quoted in part:

Trolls, flame-bait, personal attacks, thread-jacking, sockpuppetry, name-calling such as “denialist,” “denier,” and other detritus that add nothing to further the discussion may get deleted…

(There have been personal attacks and insults being written, it damages your argument and a violation if civil debate, you get carried away with your replies to Loydo and Griff with the insults, let your science based arguments do the work instead) SUNMOD

Last edited 6 months ago by Sunsettommy
Reply to  David Yaussy
January 18, 2021 5:50 am

If I could but give you a thousand plusses, brother!

Loydo
Reply to  David Yaussy
January 18, 2021 5:06 pm

Here is the thing David, I would much prefer to be having a frank adult discussion/debate and make the “warmist” case and be rebutted and learn myself – that is what science is for. Despite the expert opinions of the likes of Fred, I am not dogmatic and I am able to be persuaded.

Unfortunately this article provides (another) perfect example of everything that is wrong with this website. Where does Schlüchter say :the Alps were much warmer in the early Holocene than today”, is that not Gosselin’s fake headline he just made up? But that gets amplified and echoed and conflated and bias confirmed to the point where it is now the truth for some here. To the cult-like extent, where anyone with the temerity to question it is remorselessly ridiculed.

Converting semi-genuine factoids get into revealed truths is de rigeur every day here. Middleton is at down lower in the thread: posting interesting info that purports to show what Gosselin is claiming – but doesn’t. Ok, so the Alps were ice-free 10,800 years ago. With the abrupt modern warming we have we experienced (Abrupt? Yes 0.2C/decade and accellerating is abrupt.), they will probably be gone again in a few decades time – glaciers don’t disappear overnight. So while it does show temperature were likely higher in central Europe then, than during the depth of neo-glaciation a couple of hundred years ago, that does not show global temperatures was “much higher” than 2020.

And therein lies the rub: this another of a string of Gosselin’s ‘anything but CO2’ disinformation pieces, cut and pasted around the echo-chambers to where it becomes recieved truth to the willingly credulous. That is not science.

Ron Clutz posted this below
comment image?fit=600%2C423&ssl=1

Schlüchter’s own graph shows the Holocene maximum only 0.6C above the 1950 temperature making this statement: “much warmer…than today” complete bunkum. I stand by my argument above; it is most likely warmer today, it’s just that there is a lag time for glaciers to melt.

It is exceedingly intersesting that the Holocene was warm only several thousand years after deep glaciation but is that what you’d call “proof” it was “much warmer than today”?

Is there credible Holocene data showing temperatures 10,000 years ago warmer, let alone much warmer than today? And by today I mean 2020, not 70 years ago before the subsequent 1C rise.

Last edited 6 months ago by Loydo
Mike
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 6:42 pm

”With the abrupt modern warming we have we experienced (Abrupt? Yes 0.2C/decade and accellerating is abrupt.),”

2002 was the same temp as 1958. No abrupt changer there. In fact nothing at all. Temps just returning to where they were.
We know that pre 1958 it was warmer still world wide. More or less the same as it is today. Where is your abrupt warming? (unless you call normal fluctuations ”abrupt”)
You are talking absolute garbage. You are a confirmed paralyzed climate zombie. You need to admit that such postulations are utterly meaningless, political hogwash.
It may be warming at 0.2C/decade but it is warming at roughly 0.0C/century.
The arrow shows the start of the satellite era…

co2 journal of geophysical research. - Copy.GIF
Last edited 6 months ago by Mike
chemman
Reply to  David Yaussy
January 18, 2021 11:07 pm

There are some that try and make the warmest case. Loydo isn’t one of them

Climate believer
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 4:22 am

“echo-chamber factoid” …..is that some Aussie goth band?

mkelly
Reply to  Climate believer
January 18, 2021 7:06 am

He admits it is a “factoid”. Loydo shot down the idea of forcing with his graph the other day and now he says receding glaciers with trees under them factually show it was warmer long ago.

Keep going

I will throw in this one.

https://www.icelandreview.com/news/3000-year-old-trees-excavated-under-glacier/

Graemethecat
Reply to  mkelly
January 18, 2021 9:02 am

In reality, Loydo is slowly ceding ground when faced with hard evidence like this. It’s a bit like watching a glacier retreat.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 9:00 am

As usual, little Loydo only has snark, but no actual comeback when faced with empirical evidence.

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 11:22 am

As usual, Loydo demonstrates that either it doesn’t actually read the responses, or it is paid to pretend not to.

Refuting your idiotic claims is now viewed as wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I said earlier that you had reached new low in pathos, in less than 24 hours, you shattered that record.

Sara
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 6:25 am

Loydo, really, if you don’t “get” that plants like trees grow where there is available dirt, you do not know much about anything at all.

MarkW
Reply to  Sara
January 18, 2021 11:24 am

you do not know much about anything at all.”

Hasn’t that already been established?

Sara
Reply to  Sara
January 18, 2021 7:53 pm

Just pointing out the obvious to him, MarkW. 🙂

Peter W
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 6:52 am

Glacier Bay in Alaska is called that because when that area was first explored and charted by seafarers back about 1750, the 65 mile long bay was completely filled by a massive 65 mile long glacier. The seafarers kept updating their charts over the years, thereby documenting the retreat of the glacier. In 1972, it was still retreating in some arms of the bay. Keep in mind that the end of this glacier was continuously exposed to liquid seawater.

Fran
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 10:42 am

I wish he was right. Canada needs warmer not colder.

chemman
Reply to  Loydo
January 18, 2021 11:04 pm

How long does it take for a forest to grow

ATheoK
Reply to  Loydo
January 19, 2021 6:41 am

Pretty much sums it up. It’s warming rapidly, how long does it take for a glacier to melt?”

Sums absolutely nothing. Not even for moronic basement dwelling trollops.

A 337 year old tree from a forest above the tree line, only 10,000 years ago.
No glacier back then!

“Warmest temperature” claims are proven delusional.

Morteratsch Glacier, like most glaciers, has been melting off and on since the end of the Little Ice Age.

Nor is Morteratsch Glacier alone in releasing wildlife material as they melt. Glaciers worldwide have released wood, plant material and wildlife remains. All reality, documented by and backed up by peer reviewed research.

Loydo
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 7:11 pm

Indeed, skepticism thriving…
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.


MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 7:53 pm

I see that Loydo has reduced himself to science denial.
Not that it has ever known what science is.

Mr.
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2021 9:00 pm

Here’s an insight to how Loydo appreciates studies into life’s more complex events –

(of course it’s The Jerk)

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 17, 2021 8:55 pm

Poor Loydo – the scientific and mental equivalent of a Norwegian Blue !!

Its brain is DEAD..

Nailed to its perch

Not just stunned …… Bereft of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZw35VUBdzo

Yes, “climate scienceᴸᴼᴸ” HAS devolved into a Monty Python sketch

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
MarkW
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 7:50 pm

If you could present a small smidgen of this pro-AGW evidence, It would be appreciated, as well as being a first.

As these and thousands of other studies have shown, what is happening now is nothing out of the ordinary.
Indeed, it has been proven that the past was not only as warm as today, but most of the last 20,000 years was much warmer than it is today.

fred250
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 9:01 pm

And your post contains ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but mindless rhetoric.

Scientifically bereft, the standard AWG apologist.

fred250
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 9:33 pm

“vast bulk of pro AGW evidence”

Well,,, Come on… where is it !

Remember, models are NOT evidence.

Maybe you could start with answering two simple questions, with scientific evidence, of course…

1… Do you have any empirical scientific evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2?

2… In what ways has the global climate changed in the last 50 years , that can be scientifically proven to be of human released CO2 causation?
.

Redge
Reply to  Tony
January 17, 2021 11:27 pm

I agree.

After all, it is just one tree.

Wait a minute…..

Lrp
Reply to  Tony
January 18, 2021 12:49 am

Show us the evidence

Reply to  Tony
January 18, 2021 5:47 am

Br’o, (say braa)
It seems Mike misunderstood you just enough for them crazy trolls to have something to buid their own thread upon. You think it might have been something in the grammar?
Asking for a friend who also has difficulties getting past the loydos….

Gunga Din
Reply to  Tony
January 18, 2021 8:41 am

Single point?
You do know that in North America receding glaciers have also revealed tree stumps.
Right?

January 17, 2021 7:13 pm

Christian Schlüchter was one of the brave scientists who presented at the Nov. 2019 climate conference that Antifa protesters forced out of the Munich convention center. Blogger Andreas Müller summarized his and others presentations. Synopsis is here:
https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2019/12/24/munich-climate-conference-2019/

Reply to  Ron Clutz
January 17, 2021 7:15 pm

Here is an infographic of Schlüchter’s work developed by Raymond in his Simple Science series:

Summer Temperatures (May – September) A rise in temperature during a warming period will result in a glacier losing more surface area or completely vanishing. This can happen very rapidly in only a few years or over a longer period of time. If temperatures drop during a cooling period and summer temperatures are too low, glaciers will begin to grow and advance with each season. This can happen very rapidly or over a longer period in time. Special thanks to Prof. em. Christian Schlüchter / (Quartärgeologie, Umweltgeologie) Universität Bern Institut für Geologie His work is on the Western Alps and was so kind to help Raymond make this graphic as correct as possible.

06_infographic_wocc[1].png
Reply to  Ron Clutz
January 18, 2021 6:08 am

Oh, my! That just cannot be true! Those are awfully steep inclines and declines on that graph, no wonder the heroes in face nappies are concerned about the quick pace of warming!
Oh, wait, the last ten millennia fall in the range of one and a half degree peak to peak? I think Loki messed with the data eight thousand BC! Some sort of clipping algorithm or something…
Of course, even those graphs may be subject to all sorts of bias, I wasn’t there.

Gary Pearse
January 17, 2021 8:06 pm

“tells us the Alps were much warmer in the early Holocene than today.”

The craziness of these types of jubilant ‘discoveries’ are peculiar to this thirty-odd years of climate madness and the tailor-made ‘science’ that was cobbled together by néomarxiste politicians (Maurice Strong put this thing together before the science was invented), sociologists, billionaire symbionts of governments and opportunist, science-lite ‘researchers’.

It was well-known that ~ at least 8,000years of the Holocene was notably warmer than today. It was well-known long before I studied geology in the 1950s that coral reefs and river deltas rise and fall in concert with sea-level, that the Sahara was green, that carbon dioxide was the base of all life….

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Gary Pearse
January 17, 2021 8:50 pm

Ancient Forest Thaws From Melting Glacial TombBy Laura Poppick September 20, 2013

Lots of these articles readable from a Google search of “relict forests from glacier retreat”; and of course, on Stephen McIntyre’s “Climate Audit”, a search for glacier retreat brings up dozens of great posts and rich comments.

One need not go back as far as the Climatic Optimum to see warmer temps. The Medieval Warm Period was provably real and it was world-wide.

Chris Hanley
January 17, 2021 8:58 pm
Last edited 6 months ago by Chris Hanley
saveenergy
Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 18, 2021 4:08 am

Well, if it’s in wicker-pitiful it must be true !!!

Insert your own sarc button

Peter W
Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 18, 2021 6:58 am

I have been aware of Wikipedia for quite a few years, and have learned from experience to take anything on it with a tablespoon full of salt.

Ed Zuiderwijk
January 18, 2021 4:35 am

But, but, the prophet Attenborough said yesterday in his wisdom, that is his new series ‘Perfect Planet’ that ‘in 10000 years the temperature has changed by not more than 1 degree’.

Discuss.

Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
January 18, 2021 6:08 am

Uh, well, uh, you see, sir, uhm, and so on.

jtom
January 18, 2021 7:45 am

“ Research shows that the larch started growing about 10,800 years ago, less than 1000 years after the last ice age ended.”

So there was a significant climate change in less than 1000 years to clear the area of glacier, allowing the larch to sprout. 387 years later, the larch, still living and in good condition, was plowed under by a glacier; another significant climate change in less than 400 years.

AFAIK, there were no cataclysmic events (e.g., astroid strike) associated with this time frame.

What this tells me is that the climate can change radically in a short time (less that 1000 years), frequently, as a result of natural variation, about which we still do not have a good understanding.

Unfortunately, *when* the climate turns cooler again, and the temps retreat back to twentieth century averages (then lower) the warmists will slap themselves on their backs, claim they did it, and award each other Nobel prizes. Never will the average person realize the impact the warmists had on the weather was the same as rain dancers have on rain.

One can only hope that when the climate turns cold, and Man dumps enormous amounts of CO2 in the air to no avail, that the statues will be torn down, and buildings renamed.

Editor
January 18, 2021 7:57 am

10,800 years ago, the Alps were nearly ice-free.

Reply to  David Middleton
January 18, 2021 8:06 am

The 10,800 year old Larch tree was found under Morteratsch glacier.

The only portion of the Alps with ice at the time was the Colle Gnifetti saddle…

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-77518-9

While the Alps’ glaciers have retreated from their Holocene maxima at the end of neoglaciation, the Alps were mostly ice-free up until 5-6 thousand years ago.

ResourceGuy
January 18, 2021 12:30 pm

Are there any carvings in the bark with names and hearts or maybe phrases like “The end is near” or “Joe’s ice cream shop”?

Jacques Dumon
January 19, 2021 2:16 pm

@Loydo
Re: “Abrupt climate change”
You are asserting that 0,2°C /decade is an “abrupt warming”
Wikipedia has a website that deals with abrupt climate changes ten times faster:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrupt_climate_change
where you can read this:
…””Changes recorded in the climate of Greenland at the end of the Younger Dryas, as measured by ice-cores, imply a sudden warming of +10 °C (+18 °F) WITHIN A TIMESCALE OF A FEW YEARS !!!!! Other abrupt changes are the +4 °C (+7.2 °F) on Greenland 11,270 years ago or the abrupt +6 °C (11 °F) warming 22,000 years ago on Antarctica.[

CRISP
January 19, 2021 10:23 pm

One of my pet hates is researchers and others switching between “years ago” and “BCE” because there is a 2000-year difference which always screws people up. I prefer BCE because it has an absolute datum. I wish there was made a compulsory convention to use BCE, at least up to say 20,000 BCE.

Anyway, 10,800 years ago is 8800 BCE. This was well after the end of the last ice age. In fact it is 1,000 years after the end of the Younger Dryas (~10900-9800 BCE, although references do vary on these dates – possibly because of the confusion generated by using different datums!), when the gradual end-of-Ice Age warming went into a very sharp and very nasty reversal. The Neolithic Age had begun in the Middle East ~9500BCE. By 8800 BCE the Holocene Climatic Optimum had also well and truly begun. This new evidence confirms how warm that period was.

January 23, 2021 2:26 am

Old Stumps

DE140BE3-A5FD-4D00-B32A-33DFF1B94417.jpeg
Bertrand
January 27, 2021 12:50 am

Ptolemy’s maps are also evidence of catastrophic climate cooling since these events transformed savannas into deserts and destroyed many civilizations including Punt:

https://nantt44.wordpress.com/2019/02/19/chapter-viii-betius-charmutha-arabia-felix-and-the-climatic-change/

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