
Guest post by David Redfern, aka HotScot
I was invited by Charles the Moderator to write an essay with the emphasis on Scottish wind derived electricity.
I’m not a scientist, nor an engineer, in fact barely educated beyond high school, so, whilst you won’t get ‘shorthand’ scientific terms here, you will get something laymen can grasp, hopefully.
And that’s important as, whilst there are a small number of scientists/engineers etc. in the world, the majority of voters are like me, just plain old laymen and the subject of climate change is now political so every voter is vital.
Now, if you’re unfamiliar with Scotland, it’s wet and windy, with the North Sea, the Irish Sea and the Atlantic Ocean all converging in one small spot on the planet with the Gulf Stream rushing past it bringing plenty of moist, warm air up from the South. Without it, Scotland (and England and Ireland) would be frozen solid for much of the year.
I paint a bleak picture but thanks to that warm moisture Scotland has some of the most beautiful countryside in the world, a great deal of it accessible. If you take a look on Google maps at, perhaps, the River Clyde, the term ‘river’ is a bit of a joke. It has mountains rising from it. It’s home to the United Kingdoms Nuclear Submarine fleet (Faslane) and they are to bee seen sailing to and fro, mere dots on the water.
And whilst we don’t do things on the scale of, say, the USA, the country is Gods garden when the sun shines.
So, an ideal spot for wind turbines, in fact, pretty well perfect. But the most obvious problem is the destruction of the landscape, the intrusion on a wilderness that’s jarring. No romantic thoughts of isolation or Crofters tending the land in peace, turbines are a stark reminder that nowhere is far from technology.
But it is, in fact, a power grab, and I’ll explain that: Oil was discovered in the waters around Scotland in the 50’/60’s I guess (Dave Middleton will put me right on this I’m sure) and it began pumping in the early 1970’s. A bonanza! But being part of the UK it was shared equitably, but not according to the Scot’s, many of them claimed it was Scotland’s Oil.
And I’ll mention here that the reputation the Scot’s have for being good with money is a myth. In the late 17th/early 18th Century Scotland spent approximately 20% of all the money circulating in the country on an ill-conceived lunge to colonise the Isthmus of Panama; the ‘Darien scheme’. It failed and England basically bailed Scotland out in 1707 and a Political Union was the cost.
Ever since, Scotland has basically stumbled from one financial crisis to another, latterly with the socialist Labour party dominant, but more recently, the Scottish Nationalist Party, another socialist organisation desperate for independence from the United Kingdom, but with a terrible economy.
Meanwhile, industrious individuals were beavering away: James Clerk Maxwell – The second great unification in physics. Alexander Fleming – Penicillin. James Carnegie – Steel. Douglas Lapraik – Shipping magnate and founder of HSBC Bank (Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation) and many more.
I only mention these to highlight that governments are lousy at picking winners. But the Scot’s never seem to learn. Even today their mad dash to replace the now meagre Oil resources with the ‘miracle’ of wind power is largely a government decision, not that of the business community. If wind was such a great idea, why are governments required to shovel money into it at the expense of the taxpayer. And talk about putting all their eggs into one basket, in nearly 15 years of a devolved assembly, the SNP have notably failed to attract a single major industry to the country.
Wind might be considered that industry, but very little of the infrastructure is manufactured in Scotland. Despite SNP promises of an employment bonanza, with tens of thousands of jobs, barely a few thousand have materialised. Towers, Nacelles and Blades are mostly made overseas and transported to Scotland. The jobs thereafter are largely maintenance.
The whole thing is summed up well by Prof Tony Trewavas (Chairperson) Scientific Alliance Scotland:
“Throwing large amounts of money at unreliable sources of energy when others with much greater reliable potential are starved of investment is poor economics and will not be followed by any other country governed with good sense. This is gesture politics at its worst.”
OK, so now to the facts most readers of WUWT are familiar with but, as I said, it’s important the layman is furnished with basic, irrefutable facts, he/she can use to debate the subject with a degree of authority.
Many are derived from Matt Ridley’s excellent article Published on: Monday, 15 May, 2017 in the Spectator and available on his Blog: http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/wind-still-making-zero-energy/
“……wind and photovoltaic solar are supplying less than 1 per cent of global energy demand. From the International Energy Agency’s 2016 Key Renewables Trends, we can see that wind provided 0.46 per cent of global energy consumption in 2014, and solar and tide combined provided 0.35 per cent. Remember this is total energy, not just electricity, which is less than a fifth of all final energy, the rest being the solid, gaseous, and liquid fuels that do the heavy lifting for heat, transport and industry.” [Ridley] (My emphasis.)
The renewables lobby make wild claims that 14% of world energy is provided by them, but they are misleading themselves: “In fact the vast majority — three quarters — is biomass (mainly wood), and a very large part of that is ‘traditional biomass’; sticks and logs and dung burned by the poor in their homes to cook with.” [Ridley]
But this is the bit that really bowled me over. Global energy consumption is growing about 2% per year, and I’ll dispense with the detail here as it’s available from Matt’s article – with an area of about 50 acres of turbines to produce a Megawatt of electricity, it takes roughly 350,000 turbines installed every year just to meet demand, that’s an area half the size of UK and Ireland every year.
Over 50 years that would represent a land mass half the size of Russia (3,300,835 square miles) just to keep up with growth, never mind displacing mankind’s existing use. I did a rough beer mat calculation (before I drank the beer) and, very roughly, if we replaced what mankind already uses, that would be the entire land mass of Russia (6,601,670 square miles) or, put another way, almost wall to wall wind turbines across the USA (3,531,905 square miles) and Canada (3,511,023 square miles) Total 7,042,928. OK, Americans/Canadians get 44,1258 square miles all to themselves.
Then we have the thorny subject of batteries. How else are we to store all this energy for when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. The concept of a continent wide wind infrastructure is fine, but at some point there will major climatic events that impacts the performance of turbines/solar arrays.
And if, as we are assured by the climate hysterics (but not the IPCC) that catastrophic climate events are to become so much worse, turbines are going to be operational far less than they are now. But that doesn’t seem to occur to the hysterics.
I’ll refer you to a report commissioned by the GWPF (Global Warming Policy Foundation) from Michael Kelly, the Emeritus Prince Philip Professor of Technology at the University of Cambridge, formerly Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK Department for Communities and Local Government, and a fellow of the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering: https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2020/05/KellyDecarb-1.pdf
Kelly discusses the practicalities of converting the UK from internal combustion engine reliant transport to electricity reliant transport.
“The power pack for a Tesla weighs half a tonne and occupies much of the floor pan of the car: for the same 600-km range in a petrol car, you would need 48 litres of petrol, weighing just 36 kg. And the size of the battery means that they require huge quantities of materials in their manufacture. If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:
- 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
- 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
- at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium – nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
- 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.
And this is just for the UK.” [Kelly].
So what do we have left to produce all the batteries required to store the energy from wind turbines?
There are, of course, alternatives e.g. pumped storage, but I can’t think of a country which has sufficient to produce vast amounts of electricity during turbine down times. If a country had enough, it would almost eliminate the need for wind turbines, wouldn’t it?
Referring back to Matt Ridley’s article, wind turbines require “about 200 times as much material per unit of capacity as a modern combined cycle gas turbine.” [Ridley]
“A two-megawatt wind turbine weighs about 250 tonnes, including the tower, nacelle, rotor and blades. Globally, it takes about half a tonne of coal to make a tonne of steel. Add another 25 tonnes of coal for making the cement and you’re talking 150 tonnes of coal per turbine. Now if we are to build 350,000 wind turbines a year (or a smaller number of bigger ones), just to keep up with increasing energy demand, that will require 50 million tonnes of coal a year. That’s about half the EU’s hard coal–mining output”. [Ridley]
So now we are talking mind boggling numbers, enormous emissions, vast amounts of Coal/Oil/Natural gas etc. land and resources to mine/drill/excavate and transport materials to burn, just to produce wind turbines.
But of course the argument goes (by some daft enough to make it) that when the wind infrastructure is in place it’ll provide all the energy to manufacture more wind turbines.
If ever there was a Unicorn argument, that’s it right there. It demonstrates a staggering level of ignorance of physics by promoting the concept of perpetual motion. It’s just not credible.
This is the insane environment the Scottish assembly are hurling the country into. Germany’s creaking Energiewende policy should act as a warning, but it seems it’s being ignored.
See what I mean about us Jock’s being utterly useless with money. Common sense is also in short supply.
And just a wee thank you to the level headed, scientific community of WUWT especially, (obviously, Anthony) Charles, Willis, David Eric, and Chris Monckton etc.; and the forum contributors like Allan McRae, and the ever caustic MarkW 😊. I visited skepticalscience to understand climate change some years ago, ignorant of everything climate related. But it scared me, the level of aggression is unreal. Contrastingly I was welcomed at WUWT, people were/are patient and educated me, not in climate science, but how to hone my limited analytical skills. I still have to take my socks off to count but the debate has moved into the realm of politicians who have never bothered to take their socks off.
Masterly. But it’s a discussion limited to the pampered ‘West’ pumped up on comfortable access to fossil fuels. In the real world it’s over 600 new coal fired power stations to add to the 10,000 already existing which will lift their people out of poverty.
Should the globe cool, it’s going to get very embarrassing.
Terrific article HotScott . When will the penny drop with the public that they are being taken for fools ?
Prof Anthony Trewavas is the real hero here .
The energy mess / scandal in Scotland needs wide exposure .
Thank you, HotScot, a very clear and simply written article.
And in reply to Matt_S, “When are we going to wake up from this self deluded fantasy,” my answer is “One by one.”
Nice article Hot Scot.
I was thinking about Scotland just a couple of days ago as we went for a summer solstice walk on Nearby Dartmoor. We were reminded that exactly 30 years earlier my wife and I were seated on the vey northernmost tip of mainland Scotland, a few miles north of John o’ Groats watching puffins and waiting to see if there was indeed eternal twilight on that day, which there was.
Scotland has in parts achingly beautiful landscapes and it is this that contributes so much to the economy as well as providing great spiritual pleasure to locals and visitors alike. It shapes the country and its people.
You don’t save the environment by trashing the countryside, but unfortunately Scottish leaders seem to have ignored this with the vast scale of many wind farms destroying the very reason people visit.
If it were cost effective to build and run them and wasn’t so environmentally destructive to mine the materials then erect the turbines it might be more acceptable. Even more acceptable if they were actually effective-but they aren’t. So a sort of madness reigns as it did with the Darius gap adventure. I wonder what the final cost to Scotland’s soul and economy and political affiliations will be as they cast around for alternatives to North Sea oil..
As well as all the many profound technical arguments against wind power set out above we need to recognise the vast costs of the inter-connectors needed to deliver the intermittent supply from Scotland to the market place that is going to be forced buy it, namely England. As the turbines desecrate more & more remote beauty spots the overhead of getting the product to market becomes a larger & larger proportion of the infrastructure costs. Green politics does not a well-engineered system make.
Human civilization only advanced because the cost of producing energy fell. If wind or any other form of energy production makes the end product more expensive, today’s civilization will collapse.
But somehow it seems that’s what they want.
I just wonder how the Climate Jugend and Green Shirts will react when the light switch stops working.
“Robertvd June 22, 2020 at 3:43 am
Human civilization only advanced because the cost of producing energy fell.”
No. It was glass and lenses.
Patrick MJD
Go down that route and it could be argued it was the candle; which could be burned relatively cheaply, allowing people to continue to work beyond dusk, at which point lenses are useless without candlelight.
Yes, all true however, while there was light, without glasses/lenses, no-one could read or write text.
It would not surprise me in the least, if we were to use 10% of the monies spend on trying to engineer climate to adapt to and even seek to benefit from climate change, that we would see a handsome return for our investment. On top of that we should eliminate the remaining 90% of wasteful climate spending. Perhaps we could also use some of this savings to clean up the worst environmental pollution. A win-win-win path.
Two hundred years ago the publisher William Collins was founded in Glasgow. It not only lifted many city residents out of poverty but in the next 150 years grew to become one of the great publishers of the world. Then in the mid seventies its fortunes turned and it ended up incorporated in the US publisher Harper. A sad story about what should have still been one of the greatest publishers today. What were the decisions that led to this loss and can to learn from them? Perhaps there is a parallel here: decisions taken by Collins management without thinking through their wisdom and possible consequences. The same with wind energy in Scotland.
Just imagine how many bagpipes could be powered by all that wind. The sound would be incredible. No further need for national defense either. No would-be invader would dare go against that.
Bruce Cobb
Much of the reason pipers were often point men during WW1 & WW2. The haunting sound of the pipes could be heard for miles and induced anxiety in the enemy.
More like three quarters of a tonne of coal. I don’t have the reference handy but I got a figure from a steel industry site of either 768 kg./tonne or 786 kg./tonne for new primary steel. The lower figure Ridley cites may be including recycled steel when can me made using electricity produced from less that 200 kg. of coal per tonne of steel (assuming coal-fired electricity). Lumping primary and recycled production would account for Ridley’s figure. Roughly 15% of coal mined worldwide each year goes into primary steel production. Wind can’t replace coal to make new primary steel no matter how cheap it is.
Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Matt Ridley invariably errs on the conservative side when quoting numbers.
His are horrific enough, and I have little doubt you’re correct.
Well in theory it can. Sort of. iron oxide needs energy to turn it into iron, and will release oxygen in the process. The normal way to do that of course is to use carbon both as the source of energy and to absorb the oxygen.
see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10800-017-1143-5
Of course steel needs a bit of carbon in there as well as iron, but you might get that from atmospheric CO2.
Massively expensive and inefficient but theoretically possible.
Which statement should be applied to all green technology.
In the late 17th/early 18th Century Scotland spent approximately 20% of all the money circulating in the country on an ill-conceived lunge to colonise the Isthmus of Panama; the ‘Darien scheme’.
Been reading about the Darien for years, but this is new to me. Time to do some more research. If there were a contest for the worst place on earth to colonize, the Darien would be a contender. Today you can drive from Alaska to Panama City on the Pan-American Highway. If you can somehow get your car into Colombia you can drive on, to the southern tip of Argentina. But you can’t drive through the Darien.
HotScott,
Thanks for your well-written and informative post.
Bill Rocks
Not at all, it was a pleasure writing it.
Thank to you for reading it.
It is no great surprise that no major industry would invest in Scotland all the time the SNP and Jimmy Krankie are pushing for independence. The disruption that would cause in enough to put anybody off. A closer examination of the economy of an independent Scotland certainly would since it would be a basket case from day 1. The currency would be a major problem since while they could use sterling or the euro, or anything else, they would have no control over it or have any lender of last resort.
There is something wrong with your copper production number. World production is over 15 million per year, so 2.4 million is not half. However, it is a big chunk and would massively affect the price.
Gerry
Not my numbers mate. I’m far too thick to figure those out.
But thanks for the head’s up.
The problem with green enthusiasts are:
1) Anything that works is an anathema.
2) They are completely innumerate.
3) Anything that might prevent breakdown of society, which would usher in a new totalitarian age, is to be resisted to the hilt.
#3 is the greatest problem.
I had the pleasure and honor to live in Scotland in the late 80’s/early 90’s. As far north as you can get. On a clear day, I could see the Old Man of Hoy from my kitchen window. Rode the A-9 from Thurso to Inverness and back many times, and a more desolate and beautiful landscape is difficult to imagine. Even then, the blight of windmills was starting to appear. I fear to think what that ride would look like now.
TomB
Progress in Scotland means speed cameras, as well as wind turbines.
Far less of an exhilarating ride these days.
Assuming, of course, you were riding a Motorbike.
Production of hydrogen is an alternative to batteries to absorb electricity from wind systems.
Why is it always assumed that production of alternative energy components requires carbon-based energy? All energy must move to zero carbon to meet climate goals. Then manufacturing, mining etc. will also be zero carbon.
However, I believe nuclear is an essential contributor.
Ian Kerr
I suspect the generation of Hydrogen would soak up far too much of wind derived energy to make it useful for anything else, far less boil a kettle.
Now, to go down your route, we are entering the realms of perpetual motion. Build a wind turbine to produce a wind turbine. That just doesn’t work.
Build a wind turbine, to produce Hydrogen, to build a wind turbine, works even less.
Even my limited knowledge of cumulative loss along the way tells me this is Unicorn thinking.
Sadly, the Unicorn is the National emblem of Scotland.
Which should tell us all something.
Keep up the good work, HotScot!
J Mac
Thanks for the support. I’ll try.
This article highlights that the global push for renewables and more particularly wind power makes no economic, commercial, social or environment sense and a laymen like you and myself prepared to do a minimum amount of research will reach that conclusion . I think we can fairly describe that the push by countries like UK, Australia , Germany to go down this path as some sort of economic suicide which will not work out well.
What I can’t understand is how such illogical insanity can be instilled countrywide into democracies who every few years have the opportunity to throw out those who seek to implement such obviously flawed policies. The insanity of the policies are so clear that I sometimes wonder whether I have suddenly woken up in an alternative universe where everything doesn’t quite make sense and I’m the only one who has a proper sense of perspective.
Only on forums like this do I actually find people who speak my language but it is the results of the US , UK and Aussie elections that have given me hope that there are way more of us than I realised only that most people are either too disinterested or too afraid to state what is obvious ( the emperor has no clothes). I feel that the massive indoctrination of a whole generation by a compliant media and academe could in the near future swing opinion against us such that even the silent majority will not be able to stop the carnage that will flow if the wrong people get into power.
As one of our more colourful leaders said ( well almost).
“ Global warming (policy) is one of the Greatest moral issues of our time”
We have reached a tipping point. If it can’t be halted in the next one to two years it may be too late to do anything about it and the influx of indoctrinated voters and the death of elderly conservatives will swing the balance so that true capitalist democracies as we know will be controlled by those inflicted with this insanity. Obviously this will not be a problem for dictatorships like China who will be beneficiaries of the craziness that is climate change policy.
The author Sir Terry Pratchett had his own opinion on “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. He suggested that the Emperor’s (armed) guards would go up to the bystanders with “You didn’t hear that did you? Did you?” And, given the reactions of the Powers That Be (and their MSM) to any opposition – it seems like that’s the way that things go!
Great article. Scots today are heading for a cliff and appear to have no-one to head them off.
Nice level-headed article.
If you want to see the nightmare called Wind Turbine Farms, just visit us here in Texas. It isn’t so bad when they are just blotting out some square miles of corn fields, but when they cover the once beautiful colorful ridges of west Texas (near to New Mexico) it is sickening.
Then you have all the new high power transmission lines I helped to pay for through my electricity prices and taxes that traverse endless miles to transport the intermittent electricity they produce.
And finally, you have the brown outs (probably soon to be blackouts) that too much reliance on wind generation brings to us.
I keep hoping that Texans will wake up and fight back against the Green Mob, but there are too many liberals moving here for the jobs – Austin is already becoming a “lost city”, with Houston and Dallas not far behind.
The only description of wind power is that it is dumb, expensive, impractical, stuipid and fails to reduce carbon levels in the atmosphere. It wouldtake many paragraphs to certify the negatives of this 18th century tevchnology,, which somehow has been hyped as a solution to something. Or other.
Just take costs : it is certifiable that a molten salt small modular reactoers of aproximaely 350MW requires a land area that is a tiny percentage of the vast amounts of land required bt wind turbines
that can produce the same amount of power (nameplate capacty of turbines would have to be on the order of 1200 MW) . Wind power is low quality unreliable power that causes undue grid peregrinationes to make use of the power generated by sloppy wind turbines. The side effect costs of any unreliable generator such as wind are very substantial and to top it all off, wind turnbines have been estimated as unable to reduce atmospheric carbon levels and no proof rejecting this has ever been put forth by wind hypsters. Wind turbines , especially large versions, have ben shown to have lifespans a fraction of that promised by wind hucksters, making the costs of the power far greater than it already is, which is far and away the most expnsive methods of producing electricity. We know for certain that small modular molten salt nuclear reactors can be built to porduce levelized costs of 4 cents per kWhr. Compare that to the 20 something cents per kWhr produce dby wind. Wind is dumb all over the place : costs, effects, grid unfriendliness, etc
Only the clueless Scots have convinced themselves that their wind turbines are the future. They have thus shown themselves as dumb as the technology itself.
Petr Beckmann called it ‘piddle power.
Great article HotScot, a lot of good comments but not enough time to read them all.
I’m still giggling over the thought that copper wire was invented by two Scots squabbling over a penny! 🙂
How did we ever get to a stage where there was enough coal powered electricity to make new coal driven power plants? Did we need to achieve perpetual motion to do that? – Greg
Your comment demonstrates a “staggering level of ignorance”.
You might want to read a little of the history of coal particularly in the UK. For example: heating & smelting (Both came before the invention of writing), lime burning (concrete and mortar), iron, coke (Not the drink), steal, James Watt, gas lighting (Town gas / coal gas), the steam engine, the industrial revolution, cotton mills, steamships, steam trains, steam turbines… !
I think you’ll find it’s not “turtles all the way down” but coal!
*Exposed seams on the surface and sea cole (sea coal).
One point in the discussion that never seems to be mentioned: It is looked into like when these wind turbines are built they will supply electricity forever. My estimate is they will run for a maximum of 30 years. (see also “Planet of the Humans”). So every 30 years they have to be replaced! That compares unfavourably to coal and nuclear factories that usually last 60 years. (please excuse my English)
You are correct Heinrich, but I wouldn’t think there would be too many turbines that would last thirty years. There aren’t enough raw materials on earth to fulfill their dream of making the world 100% renewable once over let alone call it a sustainable source of power.