This is a scientific review, published to inform health care professionals and public officials, and for an open peer review. It is not medical advice.
Abstract
Hydroxycholoroquine (HCQ) is effective against COVID-19 in a variety of roles – the main two being antiviral and immunomodulator. This “silver bullet” effect may have caused confusion between different effects. It is better to start HCQ-based treatment as early as possible.
Introduction
Hydroxycholoroquine (HCQ) has many mechanisms against COVID-19. This diversity of mechanisms may have created confusion, even among medical professionals. Most importantly, HCQ and its combinations are effective antivirals against SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus causing COVID-19. As all antivirals, HCQ combinations should be taken early, before the virus overwhelms the body. Therefore, and because current COVID-19 tests have a large rate of false negatives, Dr. Zelenko recommends starting an HCQ-based treatment immediately upon suspicion of COVID-19 [1]: “Given the urgency of the situation, I recommend initiating treatment based on clinical suspicion as soon as possible, even without confirmatory testing.”
I can understand the theoretical basis for starting immediately. If common flu is treated with antivirals, the CDC recommends starting within 48 hours of symptoms onset [2]: “treatment is most effective when given as early as possible after symptoms develop, and its effectiveness diminishes markedly after 48 hours.” Those antivirals, like oseltamivir, begin acting immediately upon entering the bloodstream [3]. HCQ, however, is different. It needs to accumulate in the tissues, and that takes time. Thus, there seems to be no 48 hours window. HCQ’s anti-viral effect diminishes with every day that treatment is delayed.
HCQ as anti-viral
HCQ+AZ
The most tested HCQ-based treatment for COVID-19 is HCQ+AZ (Azithromycin). This drug combination treatment is associated with Didier Raoult, head of the Institut Hospitalo-Universitaire Méditerranée Infection (IHU) [4], [5]. He and his colleagues cited earlier experience of doctors in China.
The two drugs, HCQ+AZ, are considered synergetic in suppressing the SARS-CoV-2 spike — ACE2 interaction, which the coronavirus uses to enter the cell [5], [6]. These “spikes” make up the crown, or “corona”, which gives this type of virus its name. AZ is also an antibiotic, necessary to protect the body from any opportunistic bacterial infection during treatment.
To suppress the SARS-CoV-2 spike – ACE2 interaction, HCQ must accumulate in the lungs. This process begins when HCQ enters the bloodstream and proceeds slowly from there. This is explained in [7] (on chloroquine):
Drug disposition proceeds in three phases—distribution from blood to tissues, equilibration between blood and tissues, and release from tissues back into blood. These phases have half-lives of 3–8, 40–216 h, and 30–60 days, respectively
The times vary by tissue.
HCQ+Zn+antibiotic
Zinc (Zn) prevents viruses from multiplying within cells, however, little Zn is found within cells. Zn ions cannot cross cell membranes. HCQ is known as Zn ionophore – it crosses cell membranes and carries Zinc with it [8]. This antiviral mechanism is entirely distinct from HCQ+AZ ability to suppress the SARS-CoV-2 spike – ACE2 interaction.
Unfortunately, HCQ does not shuttle back and forth through cell membranes carrying Zn but tends to enter the cells and stay there. Some level of tissue saturation is needed for HCQ to be effective as an ionophore.
I am not aware of any reported results on HCQ + Zn + (non-AZ antibiotic) treatment for COVID-19. Dr. Vladimir Zelenko and Dr. Anthony Cardillo (Thousand Oaks, CA) give their patients HCQ + Zn + AZ, so it is hard to say whether HCQ + Zn works. Dr. Zelenko has just registered a clinical trial [9], in which he will compare HCQ + Zn + AZ vs. HCQ + Zn + Doxycycline. Doxycycline is a milder antibiotic with no known activity against the coronavirus.
HCQ
When used on its own, HCQ does exhibit antiviral effect against COVID-19, but not strong enough [10].
HCQ as an Immunosuppressant
HCQ is most known as an immunomodulator (mild immunosuppressant). Hence, its use against auto-immune diseases like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. The main direct cause of death from COVID-19, like many other pulmonary diseases, is a cytokinetic storm and related acute respiratory distress syndrome (ADRS). This is caused by excessive immune reaction to the infection, which leads to multiple organ failure and death. HCQ decreases this excessive reaction and can do so at any time in the development of COVID-19. Apparently, early attempts to use HCQ against COVID-19 were done in the late stages of the disease.
Remarks
HCQ combinations are being used for COVID-19 treatment all over the world, from India to Czechia, with excellent results. Random population sampling is needed to evaluate the spread of the coronavirus infection and immunity to it.
Chloroquine was noticed for its antiviral and immunomodulatory effects in context of SARS epidemic in 2003 [11]:
Chloroquine exerts direct antiviral effects, inhibiting pH-dependent steps of the replication of several viruses including members of the flaviviruses, retroviruses, and coronaviruses.
… chloroquine has immunomodulatory effects … which mediate the inflammatory complications of several viral diseases.
… the tolerability, low cost, and immunomodulatory properties of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine are associated with biochemical effects that suggest a potential use in viral infections, some of whose symptoms may result from the inflammatory response.
As regards viral diseases, what is clear is that the drug has antiviral and immunomodulatory effects that warrant particular consideration.
References
| [1] | V. Zelenko, “To all medical professionals around the world,” 2020. |
| [2] | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), “What are Flu Antiviral Drugs,” 2019. |
| [3] | B. Davies, “Article Navigation Pharmacokinetics of oseltamivir: an oral antiviral for the treatment and prophylaxis of influenza in diverse populations,” Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, 2010. |
| [4] | P. Gautret and D. e. a. Raoult, “Clinical and microbiological effect of a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin in 80 COVID-19 patients with at least a six-day follow up: A pilot observational study,” Travel Medicine and Infectious Disease, 4 April 2020. |
| [5] | G. Hache and D. e. a. Raoult, “Combination of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin as potential treatment for COVID 19 patients: pharmacology, safety profile, drug interactions and management of toxicity.,” Mediterranee Infection, 22 April 2020. |
| [6] | G. Sakoulas, “ACE2 Is the SARS-CoV-2 Receptor Required for Cell Entry,” NEJM Journal Watch, 18 March 2020. |
| [7] | D. J. Browning, “Pharmacology of Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine,” in Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine Retinopathy, Springer, 2014. |
| [8] | J. e. a. Xue, “Chloroquine Is a Zinc Ionophore,” PLOS ONE, 2014. |
| [9] | A. Thakore, “Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc With Either Azithromycin or Doxycycline for Treatment of COVID-19 in Outpatient Setting,” clinicaltrials.gov, 1 May 2020. |
| [10] | C. e. a. A. Devaux, “New insights on the antiviral effects of chloroquine against coronavirus: what to expect for COVID-19?,” International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, 12 March 2020. |
| [11] | A. Savarino and et al., “Effects of chloroquine on viral infections: an old drug against today’s diseases,” The Lancet, November 2003. |
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The statement “created confusion, even among medical professionals” is a key concept. MD’s work off of protocols that may take decades of accumulated knowledge to develop. They are not really even allowed to practice outside the protocols unless they are in private practice or Medical Directors. This is why the MD’s are openly hostile to novel treatments and new interpretations of the causes of diseases. The medical profession has performed abysmally during the crisis.
The good news is we might not make the same mistakes in the future.
Right, archie, but I wonder how many of the confused professionals have presented us with an investigatory opportunity? To wit, how many patients already under treatment with HCQ, for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, developed Covid-19? Some medical group could find this out, and, since the HCQ was “administered early” we have the perfect test case. Not sur how to weigh Zn and add-on antibiotics though. Press on.
The HCQ cocktail has been proving effective as many doctors are saying. It has some very serious side effects if taken in large doses for an extended period of time, but as a virus treatment that is short term and should not harm anyone.
I’ve seen very few of the serious side effects reported and only anecdotally. I believe they are being intentionally exaggerated.
The best way to determine the extent of the side effects is to just follow the mainstream news. By doing so, you can easily conclude that they haven’t been occurring. Why is that? It’s easy. If the mainstream news could find just one case of a serious side effect caused by the short term use of HCQ, they would spread the word across the world in less than 24 hours. That’s all we would be hearing for two to three days following the discovery.
And if there were dozens or hundreds, well, the doctors that did the prescribing would already be in the social media equivalent of the medieval stocks.
Instead we get…crickets. There are no cases of the side effects the media keeps warning us of. Period. That doesn’t mean they aren’t a risk, but the risk is obviously very small under present circumstances. Yes, I overstate the point, but only by a tiny bit. Somewhere there is doubtless a poor soul experiencing one of the more serious side effects; the media just can’t find him.
Rod: “That’s all we would be hearing for two to three days following the discovery.”
That, and the word Trump.
guys….Hydroxycholoroquine is sold over the counter…doesn’t even involve a Dr
…millions of people take it and they are not dropping off like flies
If it was killing people….like the LSM talks it up….it wouldn’t even be used for things like arthritis or lupus….the risk would be greater than the benefits
…if Obama or some other idiot democrat had suggested it…the LSM would be singing the praises
Agreed and for nefarious reasons.
From reading up on it pre COVID19 uses for lupus, some people had retina damage after 5 years of heavy use.
@Latitude – not everywhere. Rx only in the US.
Plaquenil has been freely available in France like forever, and just in January, it’s declared toxic and you need a prescription, which you can’t use to buy it either, because you can’t use it against Kung Flu, and the prescription doesn’t say why you have one, so…
Need a post listing alternate ways to procure HCQ
“To suppress the SARS-CoV-2 spike – ACE2 interaction, HCQ must accumulate in the lungs.”
One wonders whether an HCQ inhaler would help with its rapid delivery into the lungs.
Now that’ you’ve said that, some idiot snowflake will attempt to inhale the inhaler, instead of its contents, and Trump will be to blame.
None of the side effects (see the Mayo Clinic site for details of each of the components) seem to be life threatening and not detectable by a treating MD. Others have posted here they’ve taken HCQ for weeks as a prophylactic against malaria (Escheback?).
Someone might comment regarding whether a population taking the HCQ combo for three weeks could resolve the current pandemic? It’s lots cheaper than all those ventilators, makeshift hospitals, stimulus checks, and related trillions.
Add 50 micrograms vitamin D3 per day into the mix and if everyone did that I think lockdown would soon be over. Someone needs to check this out. Just think of the money this would save on a world-wide basis. Why isn’t it already being done! They need to go into an area with a high level of infection and pay people to participate. Tweek it, get it to work and then roll it out. The people in the medical business wouldn’t last in the car repair business. We need an engineer’s approach to this problem.
I took chloroquine every Friday for over 20 years as protection against malaria in Rhodesia. No side effects at all.
Why Friday? I hear you ask. That was the military pay-day and we were obliged to swallow the pill before they would hand over our cash. If you caught malaria you were charged with damaging government property, I never did.
Good times.
Actually, there is a a drug disease interaction that has killed quite a few people. COVID19 in advanced stages causes arrhythmia, atrial fibrillation. HCQ is known to possibly cause a prolongation of the QTC interval, which is not a good thing in atrial fib.
Thus …. this is a case where the side effect profile for malaria or lupus is not relevant, as the disease itself causes a condition that can be a conflict with HCQ treatment.
“how many patients already under treatment with HCQ, for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, developed Covid-19?”
Not many. Dr. Oz is looking into this and came up with one result where he queried something like 10,000 of these patients records and only got a few dozen that had contracted the Wuhan virus. I think the federal government is currently doing a big research study of this issue.
It sounds to me like everyone should be taking a dose of hydroxychloroquine similar to a lupus or RA patient’s dose as a preventative until a vaccine comes along. The older, vulnerable population should defintely get it, imo, and we should not rule out giving it to everyone including children because the Wuhan virus is causing some strange, unknown problems even in asymptomatic people and in young people. The best bet might be to try to keep the Wuhan virus out of the body as much as possible from the very beginning and not waiting for symptoms to develop.
I’ve got a doctor’s appointment today at the VA, the new way: over the telephone. I may ask him if he will prescibe me some hydroxychloroquine. I have a little touch of arthiritis. Yeah, that’s the ticket. 🙂
Here’s Dr. Marik’s protocol for Covid prophylaxis (suppressing infection):
Prophylaxis
While there is very limited data (and none specific for COVID-19), the following “cocktail” may have a role in the prevention/mitigation of COVID-19 disease. While there is no high level evidence that this cocktail is effective; it is cheap, safe and widely available.
■ Vitamin C 500 mg BID and Quercetin 250-500 mg BID (BID = twice a day)
■ Zinc 75-100 mg/day (acetate, gluconate or picolinate). Zinc lozenges are preferred. After 1-2 months, reduce the dose to 30-50 mg/day.
■ Melatonin (slow release): Begin with 0.3mg and increase as tolerated to 1-2 mg at night
■ Vitamin D3 1000-4000 u/day (optimal dose unknown).
Relevant paper by Marik, et al: (2020) Does vitamin D status impact mortality from SARS-CoV-2 infection? Medicine in Drug Discovery, 100041 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590098620300282.
why does no one talk about Elderberry?
I wonder why too.
Elderberry: Benefits and Dangers
There are many things like this. On my personal list.
Green tea
Red onions
Bilberry extract
We talked shortly in the viatamine D thread about Elderberries.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/05/04/vitamin-d3-and-the-chinese-virus-coronavirus/#comment-2986626
Dr. Marik has done some groundbreaking research on the vitamin C!
@terry
Add to you list:
Black cumin,
ginger,
garlic,
curcuma (+black pepper),
oregano,
Propolis
and you are travelling to a malaria infested country very soon aren’t you?
Well, my Doc told me there “wasn’t a chance in hell” of him writing me a perscription for hydroxychloroquine. He said it nicely, though. 🙂
Maybe you need a different Dr
https://spectator.org/a-report-from-the-front/
Where can i independently verify this?
If you have not seen this
https://spectator.org/a-report-from-the-front/
Or evms.edu/covidcare
Thanks for the advice, LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks. I’m off to the liquor section!
It is currently not recommended to take HCQ for prevention of COVID-19. When HCQ is taken for prevention of malaria, it is taken at much lower dosage than for treatment.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04326725
“Stitch in time saves nine.”
“An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
Cliches, sure, but grounded in sound scientific observation & measurement.
Not so fast.
A very interesting analysis at Roy Spencer’s website showed that nations with the highest malaria rates, implying high usage of HQL by the population, had extremely low COVID19 rates.
I assume small doses of HQL taken regularly was most common but the analysis did not cover the dose
Tom
You said, “… one result where he queried something like 10,000 of these patients records and only got a few dozen that had contracted the Wuhan virus.”
A “few dozen” is ambiguous. I’ll assume that it is somewhere between 3×12 (36) and 6×12 (72), or about 50. That is equivalent to about 50/10,000, or 5,000 cases per 1,000,000 population. There have been about 1.24 million cases of COVID-19 in the US, as of today, out of about 331 million population, (0.37%) or 3,700 cases per 1,000,000 population.
5,000 per million is larger than 3,700 per million. Based on that, one is more likely to get COVID-19 if taking HCQ. You have not presented a very convincing argument. Check my calculations. Maybe I made a mistake.
The most recent random sample done in New York showed that 21% of the population showed SARS CoV 2 antigens in their bloodstream, indicating a current or prior infection. Since that equates to over 1.6 million individuals just in the New York City Metro area, it would seem that your claim of 1.24M in the U.S. is wildly undercounted. This is because you are looking only at the “confirmed” numbers, meaning individuals who were tested and received a positive reading.
Given that the latest numbers are showing that as many as 80% of cases are asymptomatic, we have to assume the positive tested patients are merely the tip of the iceberg.
If, in fact, we simply multiply the rate of known positives by a factor of 5, for those who are asymptomatic, the infection rate jumps to 18,500 cases per million and 1.85%. But, if we use the results of the random sampling, then we have to assume that 21% of the population have been infected, meaning an infection rate of 210,000 per 1,000,000 population, which would then put the HCQ population into an extremely low infection rate category.
In any case, trying to extrapolate statistically meaningful numbers from these numbers that suffer from selection bias, over and under counting, and lack of testing, or even intentional falsification, is nearly impossible under the current circumstances. One of the most frustrating things about this whole situation is the complete lack of any meaningful statistical data coming out of any group, without massive political or ideological bias attached to it.
To quote Mark Twain, “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
Jeffrey
I used the same source of information routinely used by Willis Eschenbach and Christopher Monckton: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Since I wrote the comment, the estimate has increased to 1.26 million. It almost certainly is inaccurate. However, it is probably a better estimate than yours, because your calculations are based on other estimates of unverifiable accuracy, and New York does not seem to be representative of the country as a whole.
However, I would say that the least reliable numbers are those attributed to Dr. Oz. My point was that the ‘evidence’ for the efficacy of HCQ was not convincing. I think that conclusion still stands.
I have been having tonic water which contains quinine with added lemon juice and occasionally with alcohol. It seems not to have been rushed off the shelves. I also have a couple of dozen anti-malarial pills from a working trip to the bush in Minas Gerais, Brazil a couple of years ago which I keep for emergency.
I’ve taken anti-malarials intermittently since the 1960s and (with family with me) have never had adverse side effects nor have I known of serious side effects among countless colleagues and their families.
There has been a lot of lefty hype on dangerous side effects. One person I know had some moderate intermittent dizziness, spells of lost sleep and some nightmares, but the alternative certainty of getting malaria is much worse. These symptoms were significantly mitigated by taking the drug only with meals. Warnings on all drugs look pretty scary but I’m sure the incidence of problems are few and far between for a family of drugs that have been used since Victorian times by Europeans and by native people for hundreds of years.
Gary
You are making the same logical fallacy as others here. You are basically saying that because you are an honest man, and you don’t know any criminals, it must be concluded that criminals don’t exist!
Are you suggesting that there is no evidence for serious side-effects (despite testimonials here) and that the pharmacies are inventing things to provide with the prescriptions?
I have generally found you to be a reasonable and rational person. But, when it comes to this topic, you are not being consistent and are not demanding the same level of evidence that you have for ‘climastrology.’
RE:
One of the most prominent advocates of the drug’s off-label use on WUWT described his early experiments at non-recommended doses. Several years ago he also shared with readers his unfortunate heart health history. People here have short memories. So, apparently, does he.
Not to say I wouldn’t use it if I needed it. Question is whether HCQ builds up to the necessary concentration in your blood before the virus does a number on your lungs. If used according to recommended doses, it might not accumulate fast enough.
But maybe it’s more to the point to keep the focus on how serious this disease is. Only a few people have written about it here, but it would certainly be interesting to hear more personal accounts. If anyone has had antibody testing and can attest to the disease’s effects and symptoms, it would be great to know about them. The following hospitalization rates help put its seriousness in perspective:
Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19-Associated Hospitalizations (Rate per 100,000 population): 40.4
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_3.html
Laboratory-Confirmed Flu Hospitalization (Rate per 100,000, for Nov-May 2019-20 Flu season): 69
https://gis.cdc.gov/GRASP/Fluview/FluHospRates.html
The increase in Covid cases is slowing in U.S. and likely will level by summer.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/
Further, we vaccinate millions of people for flu. Without this campaign the number of flu deaths would rival those of Covid-19.
We keep hearing “This isn’t the flu. Coronavirus is NOT THE FLU.” I’m beginning to believe they were right. It is MUCH, MUCH less serious.
@Clyde Spencer
It’s always the question of the probability of whatever side-effect. Not everybody suffers from side-effects, in general, side-effects are in general rare, but m a y occur. In so far, it is right and necessary to name them. Also may it it possible, that under certain conditions, a new side-effect m a y occur. But seen the milions of doses taken since the first use of HCQ, it seems, these side-effects are very seldom.
And of course, contra-indications have to be considered.
Krishna
It isn’t JUST the probability of a serious side-effects. One can’t turn to a grieving family and console them with, “We’re sorry, but your husband/father was one of only 1% that reacts poorly to the medication.” Physicians swear an oath to “First, do no harm.” They have to have a reasonable expectation that there will be no fatal or permanently debilitating side-effects. Unfortunately, because HCQ has a half-life of nearly two months, once the level builds high enough in the blood stream to cause life-threatening reactions, it isn’t sufficient to simply stop the dosage, and there are few ways to clear the system as is done with chelating agents to treat heavy-metal poisoning. It seems to me that those who are strong advocates of HCQ therapy have not given much thought to the ethical and moral ramifications of treating large numbers of people with a drug that is not proven conclusively to work, and have unpredictable and potentially fatal side-effects. What’s worse, the recommendations are to only use the drug at an early stage when the people might get well on their own. So, the use puts people at an unknowable risk at a time when they may not need it.
The small but potentially fatal risk of using the drug, is best dealt with by the patient, or their family, giving informed consent to the trial. It isn’t “informed” when commenters here deny that there any risks whatsoever, or say that the only side-effects are always mild. The potential user will have been misled. It is irresponsible to downplay the risks, especially when they are well-documented.
Tom Abbot, not sure why some comments can be replied to and not others
But regarding quinine
I have a sodastream, the tonic syrup has quinine and you can make it stronger if you wish
Is there and real documentation that quinine is a zinc ionopre as is hydrocloroqine
This has been looked at, not in great detail, but there is some info in this YT series by a US pathologist, info from Italy at about 10min (the rest is worth a watch, as are his other YTs on cv.
Puting this out again. Treating covid is more than the antiviral part. I could clip parts and drop them in, but read them from links. A lot of people have died needlessly. Still not a word about this here
Here is a recent description, sorry for the political bent..
https://spectator.org/a-report-from-the-front/
For the protocol it self, make sure to read pages 9 and 10
Evms.edu/covidcare
One of these day this site might even do at top level article on this.
Interesting info, good to know. Especially the part on
anti-inflammatory agents.
An example of a physician who was able to work outside the protocols: https://www.fox7austin.com/news/fox-26-gets-unprecedented-access-to-texas-1st-nursing-home-to-treat-covid-19-with-hydroxychloroquine.amp
A comment from a medical friend:
“I was never one for protocols as they end up tablets of stone,*
Archie,
The Medical ‘Profession’ is all about the money. That explains why the Medical Profession has made ‘bad’ decisions and the fact that there are two ‘miracle’ simple cures for Covid that an idiot could find.
The tests of hydroxychloroquine must include Zinc supplements. Tests have shown only 30 mg/day of Hydroxychloroquine and 30 mg/day of Zinc stops the virus from replicating.
Hydroxychloroquine or Chloroquine can stop the virus from replicating if those drugs are given within zinc supplements BEFORE the patient is exposed to the virus.
In vitro tests have shown that Zinc stops from the covid virus from replicating, however, the zinc positive zinc ion +2, needs an ionophore to get into our cells
The drugs Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine are Zinc ionophores.
Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine help the positive Z+2 ion get into our negative cell. The Z+2 ion and then makes the recepitor ACE-2 slightly positive which stops the virus from replicating.
It appears, that Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine the malaria fighting chemicals, are most useful only useful in fighting the virus, when they are used with Zinc supplements!
https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176
Zn 2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture
Trump got the idea from Rudy Giuliano who interviewed this doctor.
https://www.ibtimes.sg/us-doctor-claims-have-cured-nearly-500-coronavirus-patients-using-hydroxychloroquine-video-42075
“I blended the two treatments from South Korea and France and made a three drug regimen which are hydroxychloroquine, which is the common denominator by both treatments, then I used zinc, and azithromycin. The virus gets inside the cell and begins to hijack the cell industrial machinery. It is well known that zinc interrupts that. So, the concept is that it interferes in the replication of the virus,” said Dr Zelenko while revealing about his course of treatment.
“But the problem with zinc is that it does not get inside the cell very easily, only very small percent gets in. What is interesting is that hydroxychloroquine is a ionic core; so it is the key that opens the canal and facilitates the work of the zinc. When you have a severe viral infection, it is well known that you can get a secondary infection, so I believe the zithromax is there as a precaution and if there begins a bacteria process, it kills it before it causes a bigger problem,” he went on to add.
This is the Jewish physician that treated 700 sick covid patients with higher dosage Chloroquine and Zinc supplements with close to 100% success rate.
https://techstartups.com/2020/04/03/updates-from-dr-vladimir-zelenko-now-treated-700-coronavirus-patients-with-99-9-success-rate-using-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-and-z-pak-1-outpatient-died-after-not-following-protocol-exclusi/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182877/pdf/pone.0109180.pdf
I posted this link before, but it bears repeating. From St. Luke’s Clinic —
https://swietylukasz.pl/en/2020/03/20/zinc-and-covid-19-infection/
HCQ is apparently not the only zinc ionophore. Two others are:
quercitin (plant flavonoid, found in many fruits and vegetables) – supports the immune system and increases the effectiveness of treatment of viral infections,
AND
phosphatidylcholine (a phospholipid that builds cell membranes, contained in lecithin) – necessary for the proper work of the nervous system, mitochondria, immune system and also helps to detoxify the body.
Both of these are common OTC supplements with a long history of zero side effects. Worth noting that excessive Zn can also be a bad thing, just like excessive vitamin D3 (or excessive almost anything) but intelligent supplementation with Zn, D3 and one of these ionophores during this crises would be a good bet for most people, especially those of us in the high latitudes with minimum sunlight exposure.
Dr. Raoult released the results of treating 1,061 patients:
” The HCQ-AZ combination, when started immediately after diagnosis, is a safe and efficient treatment for COVID-19, with a mortality rate of 0.5%, in elderly patients. It avoids worsening and clears virus persistence and contagiosity in most cases.”
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/
Some “science” people say: Raoult treatment is useless and possibly harmful, even causing death.
IOW, some people think: COVID assassinates less than 0.5%, you only have to not follow Raoult.
Except, they don’t SAY that. They either don’t dare, or these science/academia people don’t know what they mean.
“The medical profession has performed abysmally during the crisis”
I’d say they perform abysmally almost all the time. It’s just more obvious and more dramatic.
I agree with you that the “House of Medicine” is a very conservative, malpractice-shy place. Often it is those, such as medical directors and those in private practice, who will take risks in order to push the envelope for novel or less-than-traditional treatments. While I am a believer in EBM ( evidence based medicine) Science is not a monolith. EBM depends on who is presenting the “evidence”, how strong is it, has it been reproduced, as well as financial and political considerations. I have been promoting an osteopathic protocol for viral infections for a decade, based on osteopathic treatment since the 1918 influenza pandemic and used , in modified form, for the last 100 years, often quite effectively. You can see it at : http://www.nysoms.org, for “Covid-19- A Missing Link to Treatment?”
An interesting resume. Filled in some gaps in my knowledge. Brief and to the point. Many thanks.
Seconded.
What is aggravating about the HCQ debate is that there is nearly nothing to lose by trying it. Short term side effects are nearly nil and the profiles of those few at risk are well known. Its like being told lottery tickets are free, but you aren’t allowed to buy one because you might get a paper cut that gets infected and kills you. Thanks, but I’d like to take my chances.
…your chances of winning the lottery, and getting a paper cut that kills you, are about the same…..
Excuse me, there is a lot to lose. If this treatment is widely known and promoted, it will make Donald J Trump look good. Most of the media would rather cut off both their thumbs than to say something good about him. Seriously.
Human lives mean little to these people. Consider the leftists love of so-called renewable energy that harms the poor the most. Since they are rich enough that it will not harm them, they don’t care. Consider the emotional harm the media has inflected on people by making low-risk people think that just walking outside your apartment for a second will mean instant death.[i] An economy that is ruined means nothing to these leftists, because they will still be rich. Are others out of job and poor? They don’t care, as long as Donald Trump loses the election. Those people are beneath them anyway. For some of these leftists, hundreds of thousand dead is a small price to pay if it means Donald Trump would lose the next election.
[i] http://www.alexberenson.com/the-mental-toll-of-coronavirus-lockdowns-on-families-and-children/
Thank you.
Couldn’t have said it better
According to the UK NHS, none of this is important, and we can’t use this medicine until clinical trials are complete in a few years time…..
Right, the evidence is all “anecdotal”, and not “scientific”.
Medicinal Marijuana sailed through approvals in numerous states based solely on anecdotal stories.
Apparently anecdotes are okay for some health policies but not for others.
What’s even more galling is that Trump was and is still being crucified over not flooding the country with unvalidated COVID tests from the WHO and elsewhere in the first few weeks after the impeachment circus wrapped up.
They insist on anecdotally sound tests before hard scientific evidence was available, but demand the exact opposite with HCQ. The only consistent point is Trump bad.
In the UK the BBC and others seem to jump on every perceived failure by President Trump over this on a daily basis, claiming that he was completely wrong, HCQ doesn’t work ‘as we now know’, (it isn’t clear who ‘we’ is and why it doesn’t work, but that is completely irrelevant when Trump is the focus), whilst completely ignoring the disgusting behaviour of China, or the utter failure of the EU to do ANYTHING. This is why I don’t bother with news- it makes absolutely no difference to my life other than to possibly bring on a stroke. I’m 58 and can honestly say I’ve never known the media to be so obsessed over a US president.
That “as we know” was the Left’s conclusion from a non-clinical study at the VA where the patients had progressed to the point they were intubated and zinc was omitted from the protocol!
The Left is so devious they probably caused the deaths of a number of veterans just to get the results that fit their political agenda! It seems to be a valid case of malpractice but broken eggs are cheap!
I dunno, Andy.
I’m 57 and I seem to remember the meeja studies typists were worshipping (for want of a cruder term) Obama as if he were Blair or JFK or something. But that’s the opposite face of the coin.
DJT does leave himself rather open to saying stuff which, video-clipped out of context, can be made to look pretty dumb. Though that may of course, be a BoJo-style double-bluff some of the time.
Funny how these supra-national disorganisations like EU and The Who? have been utterly useless in co-ordinating any of the data/protocols on this. Anyone might think they were superfluous.
RockyRoad
You opined, “The Left is so devious they probably caused the deaths of a number of veterans just to get the results that fit their political agenda!” If you will pardon the pun, that is way out in left field.
I don’t think that you are actually familiar with the study. You might want to read this:
https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2
Clyde thank you for providing the link. Here’s my take on it.
“The drug has long been known to have potentially serious side effects, including altering the heartbeat in a way that could lead to sudden death.”
So, should people in malaria infested areas stop taking hydroxychloroquine prophylactically even though it has been used in this fashion and considered safe for many years?
“Earlier this month, scientists in Brazil stopped part of a study testing chloroquine, an older drug similar to hydroxychloroquine, after heart rhythm problems developed … “
It was because of these side effects that chloroquine was phased out in favour of hydroxychloroquine. Incidentally, chloroquine is still being used in areas where mosquitoes have developed immunity to hydroxychloroquine. Presumably, the side effects were considered less of a problem than dying of malaria.
As a matter of interest how old were the people in this group and how advanced were their symptoms before hydroxychloroquine treatment was administered? It is important to start treatment as soon as the patient is diagnosed, ideally before blood clotting in the lungs begins. Finally, were ventilators used. People die from the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY Virus because their lungs stop oxygenating their blood. (Stop working.) Putting them into a ventilator is like trying to push-start a car that has run out of petrol. Is death by ventilator less painful that death from the disease?
Michael
I think that a couple of points need to be made. Most commonly, those using antimalarial drugs in First World countries are of military age, of working age and traveling on business, or young and off to see the world. Co-morbidities that usually accompany age, are going to be less frequent in the above groups. Additionally, the malarial prophylactic dosage is smaller than for other uses, and it is recommended that one start use before leaving the country. If a bad reaction occurs before leaving, one should cancel their trip. For people who live in countries where malaria is endemic, they have a choice of dying from malaria, or dying from hypersensitivity to HCQ. They may also try other drugs.
One of the issues about the concern that the claims of HCQ efficacy are anecdotal, is that there is a high rate of mild symptoms; a very small percentage die. Not everyone who uses HCQ would have needed it to recover. So, if large numbers of people were to be treated routinely, one could expect to see a higher rate of HCQ side-effects, where the cure became worse than the disease.
I agree with your assessment. This is “groundhog day”. Until November 3rd, election day 2020, every day , every media report and political statement of legislative pronouncement with be about the election and the Democrats using all their energy and clout to bring down Donald Trump…. regardless of the costs, except to their rich supporters and followers, and their “sheep”. Until election day, every day is November 3rd.
actually I believe it is empirical evidence
“Apparently anecdotes are okay for some health policies but not for others….”
#Believeallwomen is also ok for some accusations and not others….
#Believeallwomen is also ok for some accusations and not others….
Some were sacrificed. Democratic leadership at NBC is out. BTW, the disgraced democrat Harvey Weinstein is free of coronavirus.
Nothing anecdotal about basic science.
Safety profile of HCQ is well known based on the millions of doses already taken in other other conditions. This is not a gummy-bear and therefore therapy needs to be monitored. This is not a shot in the dark.
BTW – that paper below is well known to Fauci as it’s from his NIH
I don’t want to be a tin-hat wearing guy but one needs to follow the money. When officials pronounce that remdesivir DOA (ie the drug did not show benefit vs placebo) but then a couple days later change the goal posts and say it does work well but ‘lessening the duration of illness by a couple of days’ – that’s anecdotal, not scientific
Things that make you go hmmm?
HCQ $20/dose
antiviral remdesivir $1200/dose
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Martin J Vincent, Eric Bergeron, Suzanne Benjannet, Bobbie R Erickson, Pierre E Rollin, Thomas G Ksiazek, Nabil G Seidah & Stuart T Nichol
Virology Journal volume 2, Article number: 69 (2005) Cite this article
216k Accesses 112 Citations 17599 Altmetric Metrics
Conclusion
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds.
Because HCQS (S for sodium) is a generic substance, a 200-gram pill typically can be purchased for 63 cents each in bulk!
Companies can’t make money that way and the patent has long expired! Too bad everybody is in the habit of buying based on price yet the healuth-care industry has largely been successful in convincing rubes like us to avoid that approach when it comes to our health.
RockyRoad
The “S” is actually for sulfate. It concerns me that people who obviously don’t know what they are talking about are promoting self medications. Half the comments here are little better than Rain Dance ‘Science.’
rickk
You posted, “antiviral remdesivir $1200/dose.” Do you expect that to be your insurance co-payment, or what your insurance will pay? There is a good reason that most people who can afford insurance buy it!
If the insurance companies felt that HCQ was as good as remdesivir, I’m sure that they would be lobbying in favor of HCQ. For those of you prone to conspiracy theories, I suggest that you investigate the role that medical insurers play in the prescription of drugs.
No one is really paying attention to you ‘Lying’ Clyde, except maybe the man or woman paying you by-the-word to post here …
You are looking at this point as “paid opposition”.
_ Jim
I don’t take kindly to being called a liar. However, it has happened all too frequently on Yahoo comments when people don’t have a factual, logical rebuttal to facts that I present, usually with links.
I get paid as much for trying to introduce sanity into the discussion about COVID-19, as I get from Big Oil for the 10 WUWT guest articles and thousands of words I have contributed to comments here.
You may be right about no one paying attention. After all, you can drag an ass to water, but you can’t make him think — especially if he has already made up his mind.
+10,000 Dodgy. The vacillation is staggering given the bleedin’ obvious point that people are dying in numbers. If you have a person contract the virus (assuming they are ever tested) and who has any of the potential survival risk factors (eg age over 50, excess weight etc), wouldn’t he/she and his/her family not want you to go for the potential cure right away? You do wonder just how many of those who have died would have survived. As with masks, vitamin supplements and various other aspects of this story with limited downside you really do wonder about the strength of leadership in the UK’s (very highly paid) senior management with the NHS and Public Death England.
you really do wonder about the strength of leadership in the UK’s (very highly paid) senior management with the NHS and Public Death England.
Sadly, I do not. This pandemic has proved that governments, politicians, bureaucrats, etc. of all types are completely and utterly useless when it come to actually doing anything effective. They can witter and waffle, tell us what we can and can’t do, pass laws, but can’t actually take action themselves. Why anyone thinks that the public sector is superior to the private is totally beyond comprehension.
In the U.S., the left is trying to shift the blame of higher incidence of cases and deaths among blacks onto a lack of “social justice.” It is, as you say, just another failing of the establishment and big government.
Not a ‘senior management’. In the Soviet Union they went by the name of ‘nomenklatura’…
“as early as possible”
And, quite possibly, earlier than possible…?
It should be available in all the stores and should be listed at the top of every masthead in the news paper business.
And, it is… as tonic water… and you can buy zinc tablets at the store, too.
But not in the news paper business… oh, no, can’t do that:
Gotta leave us all… “like sitting ducks.”.
The public health crimes that have been committed in this panic: BY OMISSION.
Basic “take your vitamins & minerals” omitted from the dais of the so-called “experts.”
While hydroxycholoroquine isn’t “vitamins & minerals”, what we know: Trump was right to announce it to the American public… and push it… the way Trump does.
But the MSM media scoffed and people died.
Disgusting.
In the morning newspaper, today (a large, absentee owned paper):
“scant evidence” hydroxycholoroquine works.
That’s false.
Doctors around the world report beneficial results.
But the newspaper is satisfied to mislead its readers.
James
I will agree that most newspapers are liberal and routinely print misleading and non-factual articles. However, your claim that “scant evidence” is false, is not provided with anymore supporting evidence than the typical newspaper! You are only stating your personal belief, which is no better than the liberal editors.
Right, because no one should be able to refer to simple, established facts as, you know, simple, established facts. Everything must be proven over and over again. And documented! Don’t forget the documentation. Because life is really just one long geometry proof.
Remember, people, take Clyde’s point to heart – no one here is to simply stipulate anything! You want to say the sun rises in the east? PROVE IT.
Matthew
As far as I’m concerned you can believe that the sun rises in the east, instead of the Earth rotating in a manner that makes it appear so. You can self-medicate based on any level of evidence, or lack thereof. However, it should be self-evident that if in any medical trial there is poor control, confounding factors such as different ages, unknown pre-existing medical conditions, and a cocktail of different components is used so that it can’t be determined clearly which ones were most effective or if the dosages were optimal, then you aren’t doing science. And, should you follow your own advice, you deserve whatever should happen to you. But, it is unethical to encourage others to follow you over the cliff.
Clyde Spencer –
PAID OPPOSITION. “Resistant to fact, immune to logic; paid to think in a particular vein.”
Change my mind …
+10000000000000000000000000000000
_ Jim
I’m afraid to change your mind I would have to teach you about the Scientific Method, controlled experiments, and logic. From what I have seen, that might take more time than I have left.
I do hope you have more to contribute to this forum than insults and unsupported accusations.
James
You said, “It should be available in all the stores and should be listed at the top of every masthead in the news paper business.” If it were, you would see people taking it inappropriately and have widespread side-effects, including ‘mild death.’ It might well end up with the ‘cure’ being worse than the disease.
Yes, and driving to the pharmacy they die in a car-crash.
Fully agreed on all the above points! There is almost no downside to using this drug combination. The drugs all have Very acceptable therapeutic indices (the ratio of Toxic dose vs effective Dose) so there is very little risk of toxic side effects.
Furthermore, there is a logical, putative (but as yet unproven) pharmacological basis for the combination to offer some help in countering the infection progression and the immune response to that.
We need to consider this as “battlefield medicine” for now since we have no vaccine in sight for a while and these drugs are cheap, safe & widely available. Even if the dugs only provide a placebo effect, that would probably save some lives.
It is absolutely disgusting – no other word for it – to consider the part the media & vested interests in the medical/Pharma community have trashed the potential of this nostrum. They are potentially culpable for many tens of thousands of lives if this combination proves worthy on post-pandemic analysis……and we should NOT let them forget this fact….ever!
I agree with your assessment. This is “groundhog day”. Until November 3rd, election day 2020, every day , every media report and political statement of legislative pronouncement with be about the election and the Democrats using all their energy and clout to bring down Donald Trump…. regardless of the costs, except to their rich supporters and followers, and their “sheep”. Until election day, every day is November 3rd.
No mention of side-effects? See, among others, http://www.healthline.com/health/hydroxychloroquine-oral-tablet.
“HCQ combinations are being used for COVID-19 treatment all over the world, from India to Czechia, with excellent results.” Evidence? References? In fact, most people who get COVID-19 recover anyway. Death rates at 6 May 2020 are: Australia 1/71, India 1/29, Czechia 1/30, USA 1/17, UK , France 1/6. I don’t think anyone in Australia has being treated with HCQ. On the other hand Australia’s numbers of confirmed cases are probably much more accurate than say, India’s or Czechia’s, because it has one of the most extensive testing programs. If India’s official confirmed case number is lower than it really is, then the death rate would be higher.
Still, in the face of serious life-threatening situations, it is easy to understand why humans want to believe that someone has the solution, http://anash.org/dr-zelenko-encourages-letters-in-miracle-sefer-torah/
“I don’t think anyone in Australia has being treated with HCQ.”
Maybe HQC is reserved for movie stars ?
Tom Hanks and his wife Rita Wilson were tested positive and treated at Queesland Hospital :
https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/tom-hanks-rita-wilson-australian-hospital-virus-69551695
Rita Wilson has been treated with HQC (see link below) but at the time (in March) she was fine with no reported side effect at all.
But some times after (about a month later), Rita Wilson suddenly warned about “extreme HQC side effects” :
https://www.web24.news/u/2020/04/for-his-wife-rita-wilson-chloroquine-caused-extreme-side-effects.html
Firstly, this confirms that she has actually been treated with HQC (this was known since March) in Australia, secondly, the fact that no whatsoever side effect was reported before by Rita Wilson and/or relatives tends to show that all this “extreme side effect” meme which very oddly and suddenly appeared mid April is a complete bullshit.
The ‘extreme side effects’ she referred were fatigue, nausea, dizziness, muscle weakness! Extreme or not, they are all typical symptoms of virus infection and its aftermath. Why she wanted to blame HCQ is unclear. She seems ill-acquainted with such discomforts. Given that, can we rely on her statement that she was treated with HCQ at all? Clarification needed.
Petit-Barde: I stand corrected. There are trials going on in Australia. Also our very own eccentric billionaire politician, Clive Palmer, has been taking out multipage newspaper ads touting HCQ, and has allegedly bought up 33 million doses. Australia’s population is 24 million, and less than 7000 people have tested positive to COVID19, so maybe some of these may be available to others?
Of course, he’s also been building a full-sized replica of the Titanic, named Titanic II, since about 2010. According to the last press release, dated 2018, the ship is to be launched in 2022 for a reenactment of the original voyage across the North Atlantic (leaving from Dubai) for those still brave enough to go on an ocean cruise (no doubt there’ll be plenty of HCQ on board).
Truth IS stranger than fiction.
Also New York Times April 12 2020:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html
All pharmaceuticals have possible side-effects. Read the fine print of any common over-the-counter medication.
Are you implying that a strong devotion to religion somehow delegitamizes the work of Dr. Zelenko and others?
Given the statements of the naysayers, no currently recommended, officially or otherwise, treatment can ever be satisfactorily proven to be more effective than a placebo.
AC Parker: No I wasn’t implying that devotion to religion delegitimises Dr Zelenko’s work. Just that in crises people want to believe there is a solution, whether religious or medical, or as in this case, apparently a combination of both.
I do think HCQ is worth testing but I am cautious of optimistic claims based on one doctor’s say so, when that doctor has limited experience in virus epidemiology research.
There are papers going back to at least 2004 discussing the effectiveness of chloroquine against corona viruses.
For example, Keyaerts, et al., In vitro inhibition of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus by chloroquine BBRC 323, 264–268
The evidence is not just anecdotal. The success of HQC against covid occurred within the context of very strong inferential evidence of its likely effectiveness.
That’s why Dr. Raoult tried HCQ.
Agreed
Study shows nearly no effect with 4 µM chloroquine.
Serum concentration of Raoult study in patients is only ~1.3 µM.
Direct effect on SARS in patients with applied medication therefore unlikely.
Like any good doctor, Dr. Zelenko researched the literature, written by virologists and epidemiologists specifically experienced in SARS research, and determined a treatment for his many at-risk patients.
No treatment will be truly verifiable until years after this crisis has passed. Anecdotal is about as good as we are going to get. Action must be taken now to save lives now.
HCQ is a demonstrably safe medication that can be taken as a prophylactic. It showed promise against SARS in laboratory testing, that is why it is used to treat Xi virus patients worldwide. That is why it was given to Rita Wilson and also to my congressman (though, as a Democrat, he is loath to mention it), both of whom have recovered from the virus.
Your statements exhibit much more than mere caution.
ACP
You provided the medical advice, “HCQ is a demonstrably safe medication that can be taken as a prophylactic.” What is the correct dosage, the malarial prophylactic dose, or the larger RA daily dose? On what do you base your recommendation?
Clyde, read the protocols from Dr. Raoult, as example, all, then you know.
Krishna
From what I have read, Dr. Raoult was treating patients showing symptoms. Are you claiming that he was instead providing prophylaxis?
Raoult used hydroxychloroquine, (HQC) Ron, not chloroquine.
His average serum HCQ level was 0.46 μg/mL = 1.06 μM.
According to his initial publication, “The proportion of patients that had negative PCR results in nasopharyngeal samples significantly differed between treated patients and controls at days 3-4-5 and 6 post-inclusion (Table 2). At day6 post-inclusion, 70% of hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were virologicaly cured comparing with 12.5% in the control group (p= 0.001).
…
At day6 post-inclusion, 100% of patients treated with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination were virologicaly cured comparing with 57.1% in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine only, and 12.5% in the control group (p<0.001)”
Seems pretty promising to me.
“…No mention of side-effects? See, among others, http://www.healthline.com/health/hydroxychloroquine-oral-tablet.
……………. In fact, most people who get COVID-19 recover anyway. .”
Er.. the side effects , contra-indications and the correct dose levels have been known for over 50 years. This is a safe and VERY well tested medicine.
Actually, most people who get Covid-19 don’t even know that they have it. This medicine would be prescribed for:
1 – people in the early stages of a severe Covid illness.
2 – people working with Covid patients – typically nurses and care assistants. To stop them getting it and spreading it.
I sometimes wonder about the mentality of people who would prefer to sacrifice the lives of useful members of society rather than agree that a politician whom they oppose was correct. I think they call it ‘identity Politics’….
All drugs have side-effects. And not all drugs work on every person. We shouldn’t restrict the use of a drug just because 10% or 20% of the people do not respond to it. And, which is worse: a temporary side-effect or death?
Someone was on Aspirin ?
Nothing more common than that, certainly.
Aspirin ?
Hydroxycholoroquine sucks.
It has no effect on covid19 whatsoever, but causes a lot of negative side effects.
It’s been used for 60 years dumbas there are no side effects.
You are right John. If it is so dangerous why didn’t we see all these warnings decades ago? Why now, exactly after Trump touted it? Hmm.
Vincent and John
Your remark is a non sequitur. You may not have seen the warnings because you had no interest. I received my HCQ from the VA a year before the COVID-19 and the warnings were both on the prescription bottle and with the paperwork that came with the prescription. In my case, I immediately manifested HBP, which wasn’t on the list. If an elderly person already has HBP, taking something that exacerbates it is NOT desirable!
It is no more rational to deny the existence of common side-effects than it is to resist HCQ use because of who recommended it. It becomes one “dumbas” arguing against another “dumbas.”
The warnings they wrote about is the massive negation of use HCQ because side-effects, as you f. e. demonstrate. They wrote not about warnings in instruction leaflets. Or will you say, that in the last about sixty years there was a comparable campaign because of side effects in HCQ despite of the fact certainly millions of doseshas been consumed ?
Krishna
Malaria is a horrible disease. Those who found it necessary to work in countries where it was endemic generally made the choice to put up with any mild side-effects. But, if the side-effects were bad, a prudent person would voluntarily leave the country they were traveling in, and not use the drug.
If someone knows that they tolerate HCQ well, there seems to be a small downside to volunteer to be a guinea pig. Although, those who tolerated it in their youth, may find that as they have aged, they no longer tolerate it as well. And, the other side of that coin is that COVID-19 seems to have a host of unusual symptoms, some of which may be exacerbated by common side-effects of HCQ.
To summarize, my objections and complaints have been towards those who deny that there even are any HCQ side-effects, and are offering medical advice based on their personal experience or general lack of knowledge, without acknowledging that there can be serious side-effects for a small percentage of the population. The problem is, when you are dealing with a very large number of people, even a small percentage translates into a large absolute number. There is a significant number of commenters here who are giving potentially risky medical advice, because they want to believe there is a simple cure.
Clyde, no one denies the existance of side-effects, but say, they occure rarely, so they had none.
You see the difference ?
If there is no side effects, it is not a medicine.
Paracelsius.
I love your well documented professional opinion. Are you a Democrat?
And his verb conjugation failure.
sorry but as someone whos takenit there ARE side effects and some are unpleasant
it took just 44 pils ie 22days for me to have oedema of the face/head and be unable to see well with haze n bluetinges when I looked at anythingbright.
and I was in immense pain from RA and was praying to a drug that worked
it didnt work for the ra either for me.
I also wonderif the annoying tinnitus i have had for over a decade also stemmed from that drug,
the eyes gradually recovered but maybe not s good as before either
would I risk a short course for covid?
dunno Id wanna be in hospital for immediate care if it caused a second wore event
and Im glad theyre trialling it with Doxycycline
both HQ and Zpak have known heart effects
why double up the risk?
Sadly the stuff I have read says you are right Alex. Time to loo somewhere else.
Sarc ??? 😀
Oh, ye of little faith.
With that attitude, no wonder it does not work for you.
You gotta BELIEVE!
Alex, the claimed side effects of hydroxychloroquine are all the effects of the corona virus infection that many of the medical community seem to be completely ignorant of. They think that COVID-19 is a ‘simple respiratory disease’ but it is actually a disease of the endothelium. This leads to the diarrhea, conjunctivitis, blood clots, heart attacks, kidney damage, strokes in young people as well as the lung damage and viral pneumonia.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200424/blood-clots-are-another-dangerous-covid-19-mystery
It would really serve medicine well if all the symptoms of COVID-19 were listed, it would stop the less well read doctors making fools of themselves and perhaps harming their patients. It does seem that while we are repeatedly told that anecdotal evidence is insufficient for efficacy of HCQ; anecdotal rumours generated by doctors who do not understand the disease they are treating are easily sufficient to shut down treatments.
The side-effects of HCQ were known and experienced long before COVID-19 infected humans. So if the side-effects of HCQ are the same as the effects of COVID-19, then maybe it’s not a good idea to double-up the impact on people who come down with the virus? Hopefully the trials will look at age differences in patients – to see if HCQ is effective for older people with a higher risk of dying, or only for young people who have higher survival rate anyway.
Many years ago I took anti-malarial tablets for about 18 months. I can’t remember now whether it was chloroquine or hydroxychloroquin, but I have had bad tinnitus since around that time, with no medical explanation. I had no idea that this was a common side effect of HCQ until this recent publicity. I note that no doctor has ever asked me if I had ever taken HCQ.
These effects Covid-19 may cause are not the result of HCQ, but in many cases, treating early enough,with HCQ will decrease the risk to get these effects.
It’s not the question of doubbling these effects.
Ian
You are reading selectively. Ozspeaksup just gave a testimonial of her(?) experience, which clearly are side-effects. Yet, you still de-Nye that they exist. What does that say about your objectivity when someone tells you something and you say it isn’t true?
Your powerful argument convinced me. Despite evidence to the contrary.
https://www.fox7austin.com/news/fox-26-gets-unprecedented-access-to-texas-1st-nursing-home-to-treat-covid-19-with-hydroxychloroquine
South Dakota, heavy treatment of hydroxychloroquine, 0.88% death rate. Michigan which all but banned hydroxychloroquine, 9.41% death rate. But your argument convinced me! (May 6 – South Dakota, 24 deaths out of 2721 cases. 24/2721 = 0.88% ** Michigan 4179 dead out of 44397. 4179/44397 = 9.41%)
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
And then there’s Bahrain. First case in late Feb. Adopted HCQ as a protocol a few days later. Despite testing at four times the U.S. rate (implying relatively few cases have gone undetected) the number of deaths in the entire country is eight, working out to five per million people (vs. the U.S. 200+ per million and climbing).
And it’s not because they don’t have confirmed cases. They have about 60% of the level in the U.S. (on a per million basis). That somewhat lower rate just might be because with their effective treatment regimen they haven’t allowed Covid to run wild in their nursing homes as has happened in several U.S. states.
And, while I’m a bit skeptical of this number, Worldometer indicates that they have just four present cases listed as serious/critical. Four. And that’s not per million either. Compare to 50+ per million in the U.S.
But maybe their vitamin D3 levels are sky high in Bahrain, always a possibility.
Wade
It is obvious that you don’t understand the basis and need for controlled experiments. One has to be careful that the cohorts in the study are similar in age, general health, and other confounding factors are controlled for. It is currently well known that the death rate for Blacks is about twice the rate for Whites; Michigan has a lot more Blacks in their population.
It is starting to look like there are at least two major strains of COVID-19, which have different behaviors. Without testing to determine whether those in South Dakota are experiencing the same strain as Michigan, you might as well be comparing rabies with tularemia.
The difference between anecdotal claims, and scientific evidence, is that one can’t be sure in the first case that one isn’t dealing with a spurious correlation. In a well-designed medical trial, great pains are exercised to avoid that.
Your ‘cover’ is blown, Clyde; why do you persist?
Does the payment-per-word agreement with your pharmaceutical ‘contact’ (handler) still apply?
Why do I persist? Because I object to people stating falsehoods and I’m concerned that if someone doesn’t call them on it, some lives might be lost unnecessarily.
Your intended insults are without any evidence. I’m still waiting for something of substance from you. That tells me a lot about you.
Your political bias is showing. Maybe you should pull up your britches. My wife has been on it for ten years and zero problem.
Taz
Are you addressing your remark to me? By “political bias,” do you mean that you can tell that I vote a straight Republican ticket? Surely you aren’t suggesting that because you know one person who tolerates HCQ well that your observation can be extended to every human on Earth! Maybe it is YOUR political bias that is showing.
Trouble is, will they (medics) read it?
I’ll forward this to my GP. I already told him that based on my 3 years of taking chloroquine I think this might be the answer, but it has to be prescribed as a preventitive or at very early onset.
The greatest test of HCQ is currently still ongoing in Turkey. They are giving HCQ to everyone who tests positive, or have enough symptoms to suspect covid. Their numbers of recovered patients is incredible in comparison to all other nations with large numbers of infected. Current numbers are 74+K recovered, and 52+ active cases. No other nation reached such a ratio until they reached the far end of their plateau. Turkey has accomplished this prior to reaching the middle of their outbreak. Their very low 42 deaths per million proves how effective HCQ is when used early on.
Are they giving with zinc and z pak?
Many say it is worthless without those two additions.
So?
https://www.dailysabah.com/opinion/columns/turkeys-unique-fight-against-covid-19
No mention of, but I’ll look further
The good way of Turkey :
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/coronavirus-turkey-hydroxychloroquine-malaria-treatment-progress
In a German text I read about AZ given and high vitamine C doses, but it concerned just the one or the other known person in Turkey
https://tacticaltalk.net/2020/04/19/this-is-why-turkey-has-a-fast-covid-19-recovery-rate/
So far enough, youmay also use a search machine to your taste. 😀
They are using a Japanese antiviral (and Japanese antiviral favipiravir.) with the HCQ, … https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-covid-19-treatment-turkey/
Turkey has over 130,000 cases. So they now have the largest patient group in the world using HCQ as a treatment.
The highet number of death/day was 127, I looked up starting March 15 on Worldometer until today.
Most of the time they had less than 100
Thank you for posting this summary. It doesn’t contain anything really new that Rud Istvan and several others haven’t posted before. It mostly references Zelenko and Raoult, which goes back quite a long time now in this fast-moving matter.
This is surprising as there has been plenty of time for new information to appear. It might well be that HCQ turns out not to be beneficial at all (wouldn’t be the first time a a high profile drug has crashed and burned) but my opinion is that the downsides of taking it as a prophylactic, or imediately upon the first sign of symptoms, are so limited as to be worthy of ignoring. So I’d take it – if I could get it. But of course I can’t. What I need is more news on it, updated news. At least in USA you have been talking about it.
In UK there has been a near-complete news blackout on HCQ. We can’t get it and clinicians are advised not to use it except as a trial. We don’t know whether any units in the UK are using it, let alone what their results are. One of the downsides of a monolithic National Health Service is that different units are mostly doing the same thing. We don’t get comparatives, we don’t get second opinions, we don’t learn as quickly as we might. Yes, we do have a Nanny State. We get the official line, put out by the media, and that’s it. We don’t even know which clinicians in which countries have used / are using HCQ, and in view of the very different results countries appear to be getting (okay, that appearance may be misleading, I agree) this may be worth exploration. This information must be out there. But we are not getting it. We are not even getting anecdotal stuff about HCQ. Our media is usually so transfixed on ‘human interest’ stories, usually inconsequential ‘fluff’- and is so short of other news with which to fill its time slots (BBC, note that please!) that one would have thought this anecdotal, but in depth stuff, would be a major part of their programming. But no, nothing. Zero. More information, please.
We took a dose of straight chloroquine (on the advice of British High Commission) once a week for 8 years while working in Africa, this as an anti-malarial prophylactic. You certainly needed to take it a good week before entering a malarial area. Side effects – probably the tinnitus I’ve had ever since. I’ve read that Hydroxychloroquine seems to be less harsh in its side effects. With malaria choloroquine’s main action is to stop the parasites replicating through the cells. That’s presumably why its use with Covid 19 would need to be started asap. It needs to be in the system, but once there appears to act on the virus in the same way as it does on malaria parasites, i.e. stopping its replication from cell to cell. Additional antiviral and zinc are also advised by some practitioners. As for the BBC, as an organ of public info, it is shameful. No independent journalistic enquiry on any topic allowed. A good blog for UK medical info and debate is ‘Dr Malcolm Kendrick’ here on WordPress.
Tish, yes, Dr Kendrick helped me understand the true reason behind coronary artery heart disease – that would be blood clotting abnormalities to keep the explanation short. For that reason I turned down a cholesterol PCSK9 inhibiting drug that was ‘more effective’, but cost £1000/shot once every two weeks. Sounds like the remdesivir business model perhaps?
The malarial areas of the world are still lagging well behind the temperate regions for covid infections. Coincidence, I think maybe not.
When Willis did his first analysis on the Diamond Princess passengers my first thought was like his, why so few deaths given they were heavily biased toward the at-risk age group? It remains the most solid evidence for what happens in a closed community.
There was the talk early on of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. After a tiny bit of research on their connection to quinine, joining the dots I reasoned that G&T might be a popular drink on a cruise ship and they were probably free for anyone who wanted one. From that moment on I’ve been on a morning/evening 125ml glass of tonic water as a prophytactic. I’m an engineer, my medical chums in their slightly patronising way assured me the quinine dose was too low to have any effect, but I carried on anyway.
After a month or so I noticed my blood pressure, which I take regularly because of past heart problems was unusually low, about 6% on average, that’s unheard of for me, and now after 3 months my resting heart rate has dropped by about 10%. Exercise and fitness pretty much the same throughout. These readings are all taken at the same time just after getting up in the morning. Curious I went to look for the side effects of quinine and lo and behold it’s a vasodilator and it can increase the Q-T interval, which would lead to lower blood pressure and pulse rate.
I’ve had symptoms since the outbreak that could have been Coviv-19, but never bad enough top stop me doing what I wanted, so a test was never worth doing, better to save those for medics treating serious patients.
So don’t necessarily believe the part time experts, this is new stuff. It’s also a huge reason why everybody should know what ‘normal’ blood pressure/pulse is for them, because a spot reading taken by your doctor will be all over the place and meaningless.
BTW I don’t take any zinc supplements, just looked up foods that contain zinc and made sure I ate some regularly.
Richard
Thanks. Good stuff. Where are you located? Here in the US, the FDA limits the quinine to 83 mg/liter.
Hobart, I’m in the UK, think our limit is similar for quinine…
Yes, UK has the lowest rate of HCQ prescription. I think this is because of the Trump Derangement Syndrome. The papers confirming efficacy and safety of HCQ have been popping up almost daily over the last couple of weeks:
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/lecture-critique-de-letude-de-yu-et-al-medrxiv-2020-freng/
https://twitter.com/niro60487270/status/1257678990514384896
I don’t know how effective HCQ is. Most “studies” haven’t used Zn. Most are not studies in the sense of clinical trials, but the result of researchers going over patient notes to see what treatments given. Most HCQ treatments have been given late in the disease progression, and then reported as being not efficacious, which is not surprising.
However, I am pretty sure that these “dangerous side effects” is the result of a media campaign to discredit it, probably because a) it is out of patent and b) Trump. When going over old – ie pre covid-19 instructions – nowhere are these dangers mentioned. People were prescribed this in the millions as a precaution when visiting certain countries. Yet now, suddenly, “serious side effects”. I say, follow the money. Or follow the politics. Probably both.
Yes, Vincent, follow the money & politics.
Side effects of HCQ
https://www.drugs.com/sfx/hydroxychloroquine-side-effects.html
Can cause serious problems for heart and liver but not common
Yes I’ve seen that. But they don’t give any indication of probabilities. When I had a catheter ablation, I was given probabilities for every side effect. Then I could make the decision, is it worth the risk? So when you list a very uncommon side effect alongside very common ones, it ignores the most important factor a patient needs to ask: What is the risk? It is very misleading in my view, and can lead to patients making the wrong decisions, which is probably what is happening now.
Clinical trials are used because of the need for a control group. Since there have been over one million cases in the US, there are plenty of patients not on the HCQ protocol to compare against.
A separate, formal clinical trial is not needed. There are already plenty of control group participants – in hospitals and morgues.
I’m just waiting for the anti HCQ warriors, and for what they call “arguments” 😀
We have here the one and the other warlord 😀
Unfortunately this article doesn’t mention a very grave and life endangering side effect of HCQ!
Namely for people with a G6PD gene defect. This G6PD defect is especially wide spread in the population of Malaria affected countries since it makes the carrier immune against Malaria. But the side effect is that some food (like peas or beans) and some drugs cause life endangering haemolysis (dissolution) of red blood cells. Nowadays due to globalization and migration and especially in the US with its high share of Afro-American population this G6PD gene defect is also wide spread in northern countries. Especially from the US there were already reports mentioning a higher share of dead people with Afro-American ethnicity amongst the CoVid deads, compared to their share of population.
HCQ and all of it’s derivates are clearly on the blacklist with “high risk” for G6PD deficiency affected people. Treating CoVid infected G6PD people with HCQ can kill them without even being noticed by doctor. Since a serious CoVid infection already leads to a lack of oxygen in the blood and HCQ triggered haemolysis reinforces it… with deadly outcome.
So giving a general recommendation for HCQ-treatment is very dangerous. It might be a good curing drug for people without G6PD defect, but for those with the defect, it’s most likely a secret killer.
Here is a good article of a German virologist explaining (in English) the risk of a HCQ-treatment, especially starting from the subtitle “A hint from New York” which also shows a global map of the G6PD defect frequency: https://multipolar-magazin.de/artikel/covid-19-a-case-for-medical-detectives
I don’t know about you but after reading this, suddenly fish-tank cleaner is looking pretty tasty.
They are investigating that woman with murdering her husband. They think that she poisoned him and then made up the story for the police.
The primary reason for a clinical trial is to have a control group. But with over 1 million cases in the US, there are plenty of patients who did not receive any HCQ treatment that could serve that purpose.
There is no shortage of control group candidates already – in hospitals and morgues.
Mr. Leo Goldstein,
Have you any info on the quinine sulphate tablets which are meant for leg cramps, available without prescription ? Thanks.
Importantly, sulfur ions also have antiviral activity.
“Organosulfur compounds like quercetin and allicin are associated with inhibition of viral infection. These chemicals can hinder virus attachment to host cell, alter transcription and translation of viral genome in host cell and also affect viral assembly. Quercetin can affect entry and attachment of Enterovirus and Influenza virus on host cell. This compound also has ability to inhibit RNA polymerase which is necessary for viral replication. Quercetin also inhibit process by which virus alter signalling pathway in host cell. Organosulfur compounds like allicin, diallyl trisulfide and ajoene are main chemicals which impart antiviral property to garlic. It is known that allicin can pass through phospholipid membrane of cell and can further contribute in inhibiting viral multiplication.
Considering numerous studies which corroborate antiviral effect of onion and garlic, this paper recommends consumption of these plants as a safe alternative to prevent virus infection.”
https://pharmascope.org/index.php/ijrps/article/view/1738/2428
thanks ren
I’m not sure what you mean by sulfur ions (sulfide?).
Quercetin is not a sulfur compound and none of those compounds you mentioned are ionic. I’m not discounting what you are saying other than some the chemistry you are claiming is not correct.
Scissor, look up link
I just did.
The article is garbage from a garbage journal. I found several factual errors in just the first paragraph, and the grammatical errors are inexcusable. I guess that why is scores so low.
Eat lot of garlic, it’s good for social distancing too, no other major side effects known.
“Garlic contains diverse organosulfur compounds such as S-allyl-l-cysteine, diallyl disulfide, diallyl trisulfide, ajoene, and allicin, which have potent antioxidative, antibacterial, antiviral, and anticancer properties”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491620/
No, I don’t
Thanks
Fauci has known that HCQ worked against SARS COV1 from a study his institution carried out. Strange stance he’s taking now in the light of that.
https://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/bryan-fischer/2020/04/27/fauci-knew-about-hcq-in-2005-nobody-needed-to-die
Freshens breathe and whitens teeth too.
I use it instead of salt on my eggs, and I never been sick a day in my life!
I understand there is also a relationship with Bill Gates and vaccine development that may affect the view of a cheap generic easily manufactured treatment.
In my limited view, the best known side effect of HCQ treatment is, that prople recover.
According to dr Wodarg from Germany, a pneumologist/epidemiologist and former politician and above all the first in Europe anyway to voice a protest against the Corona panic (wodarg.com , recommended) chloroquin has a major drawback because it may be the cause of hemolysis and subsequent death in people with a deficiency in the enzyme G6PD. Possibly many humans are deficient in this enzyme to make them better resistant against malaria. People in malaria infested countries are often dark skinned and this would be the explanation why in New York many black people die in this pandemic. Not of Corona, but because of their inability to handle chloroquin. See: https://multipolar-magazin.de/artikel/covid-19-a-case-for-medical-detectives
It’s hardly being used.
The blacks that are dying are like others dying. They have other underlying illnesses, are overweight, etc. Poor diet of course contributes to all of this.
“….chloroquin has a major drawback because it may be the cause of hemolysis and subsequent death in people with a deficiency in the enzyme G6PD…”
Given that it has been prescribed for around 70 years now, I suspect that we would have noticed that effect a long time ago if it were a major one, and we would have specified prescription standards to allow for it…?
I am not medically qualified and this is not medical advice:
During an informal conversation with a staff member of my anti-coagulant clinic I was told that quinine does not mix well with warfarin. I have no further details.
“Continuous hydroxychloroquine or colchicine therapy does not prevent infection with SARS-CoV-2: Insights from a large healthcare database analysis”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997220301282
A red herring study. Infection is irrelevant. Progression to disease is the only relevant metric.
While that study involved 14,000+ medical records, reading to the very end of the table of data reveals that of the 14,000 only 107 had been on hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for other medical purposes. And that is qualified with the following statement:
“…the basic methodology of the study, which is based on a computerized database, which might be incomplete. For instance, the duration and the reason of the treatment, as previously mentioned, are lacking.”
About 1300 of the 14,000 had tested positive for Covid-19 and of those ten had taken HCQ/Chloroquine prior, while 97 of the non-Covid subjects had also taken the drugs. Given those numbers, they concluded they could find no benefit.
Fauci won’t support the hydroxy cocktail unless blah blah.
from NCBI, a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), in 2005.
most authors are CDC:
Aug 2005: NCBI: Virology Journal: Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Conclusion
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection…
Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is an emerging disease that was first reported in Guangdong Province, China, in late 2002…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/
MedCram – an excellent source on what is going on- just had all its shows on chloroquin removed by you tube. There is some evil stuff going on in our country. They are still available on their website.
https://www.medcram.com/
“MedCram – an excellent source on what is going on- just had all its shows on chloroquin removed by you tube.”
Really? The ER doctor who is a Medical School teacher about ventilators is about as expert as you can get. He, himself, takes an OTC set of PreExposurePrep including Quercetin and Zinc. Also NAC (cytokine storm prophylactic). OTC. Order online. Get it in 2 days. If it is good enough for the ER expert it is good enough for me.
HCQ is not a cure. It is a PostExposure prophylactic which inhibits (but does not stop completely) viral growth. This should, it is hoped, lead to a milder (read survivable) case. HCQ has well-known effects. Medical doctors are trained to take all (side or intended) effects of a drug when prescribing to an individual patient.