Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
[UPDATE—
Well, I got up today and fired up the weed wacker and went out to sweat a bit in the sun. You can see the mowed part at the bottom and the much larger unmowed part behind … I limit my fun to one tank of gas per day, makes my hands shake afterward.

And while turning tall grass into short grass, I thought …
Rats! I asked the wrong question!
The question is not “Do Lockdowns Work”? The answer to that is obviously yes. All different types of those restrictions, from the mildest to the most draconian, will have some effect on the speed of transmission. So “Do lockdowns work?” is meaningless.
The real question is, “Is Extending Lockdowns Worth The Cost?”
That is to say, will any further extension of the lockdowns make any difference? From what people say below, we don’t see the effects of the lockdowns for three weeks or so after the imposition of the sanctions. Now, thanks to a most interesting site provided by my generally aggravating friend Steve Mosher, the future of the US looks like this (the site also has individual states):

If the peak is in two weeks, and the effects of what we do today won’t be visible for two weeks, and at this point the possible changes are small, is that worth the huge damage this lockdown is doing?
The problem that I see is the cost. One week of lockdown has cost us two trillion dollars, along with thousands of failed businesses, people unable to retire because their 401Ks are in the toilet, hundreds of thousands unemployed, a big uptick in domestic violence, and lots of jobs lost.
Now, I estimate that something on the order of 80,000 people will die in the US from this virus. (Curious me, I also looked up the estimate from the model above … 93,000.) Suppose the “flattening the curve” saves 10% of them. By all indications, it won’t, but let’s use that number.
That means that we have spent two trillion dollars to save maybe 8,000 people.
And that, in turn, means that we’ve spent a QUARTER BILLION DOLLARS PER PERSON, most of them over 70 like me but unlike me with other diseases, and put our economy in the crapper in the bargain. I may be wrong, but somehow I don’t think my life is worth a quarter billion dollars.
Now, think about the alternative—voluntary self-isolation, particularly of geezers like me, along with putting two billion into field hospitals, quarantine hospitals, accelerated doctor and nurse training in quarantine procedures, ventilators, masks, quarantine ambulances, drug production of antibiotics, chloroquine, and whatever drugs we need, instructional videos on social distancing, and the like.
I’d say there’s a good chance that we could save more than the 8,000 people by that method, and no matter how many we saved, we’d end up with a) a medical system second to none, b) a humming economy that just had two trillion poured into increased production, c) on-shoring our drug-production industry, d) no business losses, unemployment, or job losses, and e) no uptick in domestic violence.
Call me crazy, but I do NOT want to spend another two trillion dollars to prop up a mostly “feel-good” lockdown ..
Given the general ineffectiveness of these various lockdown-type interventions in the Western countries, and given that a couple weeks of lockdown have already cost us a trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of vanished jobs and failed businesses and unemployed workers …
… given all of that, I have to ask … is yesterday too soon to end the lockdowns?
Don’t give up. Just end the stay-at-home shelter-in-place regulations. Leave a strong VOLUNTARY self-isolation on geezers like myself, retired folks. Test incoming visitors to the US. Keep washing hands. START WEARING MASKS!.
Let’s get the country back to work before any more people go bankrupt or are unable to pay their rent.
Anyhow, that was my morning. How was yours? I’ve changed the title of the post, and left the original title as well, for searching purposes. And now, here’s my original post.
Best wishes to all for good health,
w.]
Before this $%^&* lockdown started, I said “SPEND THE $1 TRILLION ON OUR HEALTH SYSTEM AND DON’T LOCK THE UNITED STATES DOWN”!!!
(See, back then they were only talking one trillion. But it’s politicians spending OPM, so of course now it’s two trillion.)
And from everything I’ve seen up to now, I was right. Near as I can tell, the lockdowns in various countries have done little & our health system is still inadequate. However, that’s just anecdotal. So here is some harder data on the question.
First, almost every country has implemented some forms of health interventions, ranging from the mild to the Chinese-style totalitarian clampdowns.
And as the Koreans have shown, this can work … but only if people are willing to have quarantines enforced with GPS locations and a surveillance state and GPS contact tracing that shows everywhere you’ve been in the last two weeks. As far as I can see, you have to be Korea or China to pull that one off, and no western country has even tried it.
And as a result, there is very little difference between the spread of disease and the concomitant rate of death in any of the western countries. Figure 1 shows the tragic trajectory of death in the 14 countries with the highest death rates.

Figure 1. Coronavirus deaths versus the number of days since the country went over 10 deaths per million people.
As you can see, there is very little difference in the death rates between the various countries, despite the fact that they all have differing levels of health interventions to try to prevent the spread. They’re all following the same trajectory.
Now, other than lockdowns, what kind of health interventions am I referring to? Glad you asked. Over at ACAP you can download a dataset of the different kinds of measures used by different countries. They list no less than 33 different types of health interventions being used to fight the coronavirus, viz:
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- Amendments to funeral and burial regulations
- Awareness campaigns
- Border checks
- Border closure
- Changes in prison-related policies
- Checkpoints within the country
- Complete border closure
- Curfews
- Domestic travel restrictions
- Economic measures
- Emergency administrative structures activated or established
- Full lockdown
- General recommendations
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Humanitarian exemptions
- International flights suspension
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Limit product imports/exports
- Limit public gatherings
- Lockdown of refugee/idp camps or other minorities
- Mass population Testing
- Military deployment
- Obligatory medical tests not related to COVID-19
- Partial lockdown
- Psychological assistance and medical social work
- Public services closure
- Schools closure
- State of emergency declared
- Strengthening the public health system
- Surveillance and monitoring
- Testing policy
- Visa restrictions
So I used that to see if countries with more of those restrictions fared better. Here, for example, are the restrictions imposed by South Korea over time. Some are listed twice because they were expanded or made more rigorous over time:
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Limit public gatherings
- Visa restrictions
- Visa restrictions
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Schools closure
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- Surveillance and monitoring
- General recommendations
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- General recommendations
- Partial lockdown
- General recommendations
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Psychological assistance and medical social work
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Surveillance and monitoring
Quarantine, then surveillance, then more rigorous quarantine, then even more rigorous surveillance and quarantine. I don’t believe that Americans would put up with that.
However, being a graphically minded sort of person, I then made a scatterplot of the number of distinct kinds of restrictions a country has imposed versus the number of deaths per ten million in that country. Figure 2 shows the result:

Figure 2. Scatterplot, number of kinds of restrictions to try to prevent viral spread versus coronavirus deaths per ten thousand.
As you can see, the number of restrictions seems to have little to do with the number of deaths. For example, here’s what Switzerland has done. These are the different restrictions they’ve applied.
- Limit public gatherings
- Border checks
- Visa restrictions
- State of emergency declared
- Schools closure
- State of emergency declared
- Border checks
- Visa restrictions
- General recommendations
- Strengthening the public health system
- Awareness campaigns
- Testing policy
- Limit public gatherings
- Border closure
- Limit public gatherings
- Economic measures
- Limit public gatherings
- Partial lockdown
- Full lockdown
- Partial lockdown
- Economic measures
- Economic measures
- Limit product imports/exports
- Military deployment
- Limit public gatherings
- International flights suspension
- Limit public gatherings
- Strengthening the public health system
- Visa restrictions
- Economic measures
So the lack of visible effect is not from a lack of restrictions. Nor is the lack of visible effect because the restrictions haven’t been in place long enough. Switzerland imposed the first restrictions forty days ago, on the 21st of February. They closed the schools. On the 24th of February, the government declared an “extraordinary situation,” and banned all private and public events and ordered restaurants and bars to close. At that point, they had no coronavirus deaths. [UPDATE: A couple of people said that Switzerland’s restrictions had not been in place that long. Upon rechecking my sources, I find they were right and I was 100% wrong. However, my point remains—the different restrictions haven’t made any detectable difference to date, and the crunch is coming in one or two weeks for most countries. So any effect will be minimal, if not detectable, and meanwhile the economic and human cost is horrendous.]
They currently have 433 deaths from coronavirus. Forty days of sanctions with no effect.
Meanwhile, the Swiss have about the same number of deaths per ten million population as say Netherlands, and here’s all that the Dutch have done:
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Limit public gatherings
- Schools closure
- Public services closure
- General recommendations
- Economic measures
- Emergency administrative structures activated or established
No lockdown, neither partial nor full. No limitations on import/export. No suspension of flights. No visa restrictions. No state of emergency. No border checks.
And despite that … they are on a par with the Swiss, despite all of the Swiss containment measures.
Or you could look at it another way. Germany, the US, Portugal, France, and Spain have all instituted the same number of restrictions … but their deaths go from low to high.
So it seems that my intuition was correct. Unless you are willing to impose a full-blown police and surveillance state, these measures do very little. The problem is that this bugger is so insidious. It has a long incubation period when it is infectious but asymptomatic. And it can live on surfaces for days. As a result, in terms of government restrictions, nothing but a major Korean-style full-court press, with surveillance and strict quarantine and a populace willing to follow restrictions to the letter, will cut down the number of cases.
And Americans simply won’t do that. In fact, it’s impossible to get Americans to just shelter in place. If you go out into the streets of the US, there are lots of people working, lots of people going from place to place, grocery stores full of people … control the virus?
I don’t think so.
But regarding controlling the virus, here’s another graph. It’s exactly the same as Figure 2, but it contains Japan as well.

Hmm … they’re in the danger zone, near to Korea and China, so what extreme health measures are they practicing? Here you go …
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Visa restrictions
Whaaaa? That’s all the restrictions? … my only conclusion from that is simple.
WEAR A MASK.
The one virus health practice that distinguishes Japan from most of the world is that they all wear masks in public. Even the liberal US news media is noticing the effectiveness of masks—a CNN story is headlined “Face masks and coronavirus: Asia may have been right and the rest of the world is coming around” … seems the US specialists were wrong again. Go figure.
A mask cuts transmission down in two ways. First, it keeps you from touching your mouth or nose. This both protects you until you can wash your hands, and if you are infected it keeps you from spreading the virus onto hard surfaces to infect others.
Next, it keeps you from sneezing or coughing a billion virus particles into the air. It’s less effective at preventing you from inhaling such particles, although it helps with that as well. And it is that sneezing and coughing that is the major way that the virus is spread.
And overall, as Japan is showing us, wearing a mask cuts the transmission rate way down.
We’re starting to get there, but it may be too little too late. I see that the genius medical experts who recommended the ineffective drastic lockdown are now thinking about recommending that Americans wear masks. The headline in Politico says “Fauci: Mask-wearing recommendation under ‘very serious consideration’” … under consideration?? They’ve destroyed the American economy without looking back, but a simple recommendation to wear a mask in public requires “very serious consideration”?
Sigh …
We can see above that there’s very little upside to the American lockdown … so let’s look at the downside. First, the economic damage from the current insane “shelter-in-place” regulations designed to thwart the coronavirus is already huge—lost jobs, shuttered businesses, economic downturn, stock market losses. This doesn’t count the personal cost in things like increased suicides and domestic and other violence. The people who made the decision obviously were led by doctors, which was good, but they did not listen to economists or social scientists, which was lethal.
To partially compensate the populace for those stupendous economic losses, we’ve just thrown two TRILLION dollars in the general direction of the problem. That’s trillion with a “T”. Most people have no idea how much a trillion dollars is. Consider it this way.
Suppose you were an immortal who made so much money that you were able to spend a million dollars a day forever. In the first week, you buy 350 ventilators at $20,000 each and give them to the various states. The next day you buy 200,000 face masks at $5 a pop, epidemic prices. Then you decide to take a year and buy a field hospital every day, 365 of them at a million dollars each. That feels so good that you decide to set up full hospitals. They’re something like 1.5 million dollars per bed. So you can buy a 250-bed hospital per year. You spend the next two hundred years doing that, two hundred new hospitals, 50,000 new beds.
Now that’s only about a hundred years of spending a million bucks a day. Suppose further that you started spending one megabuck per day, that’s a full million dollars each and every day including weekends, back on January First way back in the Year One. And imagine that you spent a million dollars a day every day right up to the present, buying medical equipment, expanding medical schools, purchasing test kits, a million dollars a day from the year 1 right up to the year 2020.
Guess what …
…
… you still would have spent far less than a trillion dollars, only about three-quarters of a trillion. And to spend two trillion, you’d have to spend a million dollars a day for 5,500 years.
Can you imagine what our medical system would be like if we spent a million dollars a day on it for fifty-five-hundred years?
Instead, we’ve pissed the two trillion away on repairing the damage caused by the lockdown without getting the economy started again, plus wasting it on all the pork that got loaded onto the bill.

Consummate financial idiocy that only politicians could ever think was reasonable, logical, or practical. Mark Twain was right when he said “Suppose that you were a Member of Congress. And suppose further that you were an idiot. But I repeat myself.”
So … how about we all put on masks, keep washing our hands, give up our steamy midnight rendezvous (rendezvous?) with pangolins, increase testing particularly of our medical personnel, start testing for antibodies, and end this stupid lockdown? The pluted bloatocrats in Congress are already dreaming up a new appropriations bill to waste another trillion dollars or so that we cannot afford. Me, I say, let’s quit while we’re behind and get back to work.
Here on my forest hillside where the redwood trees scratch the sky, it’s my great fortune that my daughter, her husband, and my infant granddaughter have come to spend the lockdown in the woods … and both I and my gorgeous ex-fiancée are overjoyed that they are here. They’re working from home, and we’re retired, so all is well chez nous.

So stay well in these parlous times, dear friends. I see that Chloroquine has been approved in India for Covid-19 treatment. I had malaria four times, so I know that drug up close and personal. Plus I took it once a week for a year as malaria prophylaxis. And I used to take three weekly doses per day for three days in a row if I felt malaria coming on, and that would stop it in its tracks. So I’d take it again in a minute.
And I also saw that the advisor to the Italian Health Minister has said that only 12% of the Italian deaths were actually deaths FROM Covid-19, and the rest were deaths WITH Covid-19. So things may be looking up.
Regards to everyone,
w.
The Usual: When you comment please quote the exact words you are discussing, so we can all be clear who and what you are referring to.
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
I agree completely with the case for masks.
Let me make a general observation about the pandemic: The magic number seems to be 10 % growth in cumulative deaths, on a downward trend. This happened in China about 27 days after first reported death (FRD) and in Italy about 36 days after FRD. The magic number happened when daily deaths likely peaked.
10 % growth on a downward trend might be happening today in Spain on day 50. (Spain went 19 days between FRD and second reported death.)
Off topic but encouraging, today’s numbers indicate that Spain has joined Italy on the trend to recovery.
Lockdown in Germany shows no visible effect at first view.
With the start of lockdown, schools etc were closed, homeoffices were introduced bars and restaurants limited, social distancing asked.
The second, stronger Lockdown: shops closed, bars and restaurants closed, delivery are ok, only groups of 2 persons allowed or 3 living together as family in the same home etc, police monitoring at critical points, parcs etc…
You need at least 2 full weeks to see an effect. So in theory it does not make sense to apply a stronger lockdown already after one week. I believe the reason they do so is to make the change it people’s live a bit more gradual. Or because in the mean time they better realised what happened in Italy
Thats why I highlighted the two weks (14 days).
We will see the following numbers.
Frog meet slowly warming pot of water.
@ur momisugly Willis
Love your daily charts. Would be more informative if you would please add a line for the numbers of the common influenza deaths for the USA to the “Coronavirus deaths versus the number of days ” chart.
I keep reading that the Total of Both COVID19 deaths AND Influenza deaths are not exceeding the 2017/18 deaths.
Thanks.
Don’t know what to think about Fig. 2.
It would seem that “full government lockdown” would about cover all the other social distancing impositions, but here counts as only one? Iran, for example seems to rank #1 in terms of fewest constraints… unless their society is already so oppressed by its military / religious leaders that they need impose no others to keep people isolated.
Wiki says Iran has executed between 500 and 1,000 of its citizens each year in the last decade:
Maybe ACAPS simply failed to find out what governmental social distancing measures were actually imposed there.
U.S. meanwhile, may have slapped 12 or 13 madates on its citizens, but from what I can see every state, city and individual appears to take these suggestions (?) with a different degree of seriousness. Testing? The hardware guy I talked to a few days ago just got over his “presumptive positive” case when he suffered all the enteric problems (diarrhea) from a follow-on case of flu, and though he was back on the job two days later, he did not look good. There’s no clear policy for testing, so he was never tested. Limited group size? Forget that. The cat-herders haven’t got themselves organized yet.
Curious as to why French number of cases was still rising when many other EU countries are clearly over peak new cases, I want for test data.
I Just managed to get some data on the number of COVID-19 hospital based tests done in France. Earlier reports gave daily, now it’s weekly lumps. Why hide the detail?
3rd week of March had twice as many tests and … twice as many confirmed cases. We already knew that the reason Germany shows a lot of cases and very few fatalities is that they have a lot of test kits available and use them.
Now France has been rising a lot slower over the last 20 days but it was becoming odd that there was no peak in new cases. The doubling of tests will obviously be pumping up the number of “confirmed cases”. There was also the introduction of city based private analysis centres being authorised to COVID testing from 8th March, though it seems the number are only about 10% of the number of hospital tests.
Now there was a big jump up in cases on 24th and again 1st April.
We will have to wait some time for these sparse reports to have some more updates on whether this was also driven by test numbers.
This raises the question of whether increasing stats for new cases are being inflated by test availability and exploited to justify ever more draconian restrictions on movement.
The exponential rise in test numbers ( MORE than doubling each week ) would more than account for the milder increase in cases ( 8 day doubling time ) .
That would suggest that COVID spread in France probably peaked over two weeks ago and they forgot to mention it before putting the whole country on confinment orders.
Willis, I usually like your arguing, that you take data and let it show things. But this made me just disappointed. The data we have this early have a lot of inaccuracy, bias and hidden factors. As a European, I look scared stiff the bad logic going rounds in both MSM and social media. European countries are doing very differently. The Italian language zone is doing much worse than the German one. We don’t see the end yet, the fat lady needs to sing first, but people will have a lot of explaining why the epidemy hit Italy so badly.
Also of worth noting. PM Löfven of Michigan sized Sweden is behaving like a fatalist, where neighbouring Norway and Finland are not taking that given. You can already see the difference in mortality.
But the MSM here seem to think Trump is doing worse than social democrat Löfven. Why? Because the US has over 200k cases. They seem to genuinely think Trump stopped flights just because he’s racist, and try to call him out for not taking corona seriously enough. Yet NY has Oxiris Barbot, who really was a part of the problem, not solution. The MSM in Europe always copy the US D talking points, and that has caused a lot of damage.
MSM here was impeaching in January and much dismissed risks related to Wuhan lockdown as a right wing conspiracy — right until they started to claim the right wingers are not taking this seriously enough. In Finland, the far left is in the coalition government, and they pretty much swallowed the right wing opposition requirements of border lockdowns to Russia, Estonia, flight bans and serious limits to in country travel. The lockdown appears *not ineffective*’ but masks have not yet been introduced.
For me, that China lies about corona is the proof they knew about it earlier than they admit. They lied, and now liberal very not-racist huggers die in NY.
That is simply not true, that they test only people with severe problems. If somebody is detected with problems and positive for Covid-19 people who were in contact with him are tested too. If virus was spread much more than official numbers new cases would pop up exponentially, which is not the case. 8 million New Yorkers got in 20 days from 100 to 50 thousand by 9 doublings (100×2^9). Slovak 5.5 millions got in 20 days to 400 by 2 doublings (100×2^2). There is no underlying epidemy going. A.k.a face masks works. Nice day.
There is actually a third and possibly most important reason masks help.
They raise the humidity level in the nasal cavities which makes it much more difficult for the virus to gain entrance. It’s also why it’s a good thing summer is approaching up here in the North.
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577
Yes lockdowns work. Look at the San Francisco success story.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/03/31/coronavirus-early-stay-home-order-helping-san-francisco-column/5088664002/
“While it is difficult to attribute the difference to any one factor, it seems likely that early action by political and corporate leaders made an enormous difference. On March 16, the mayors of San Francisco and the five surrounding counties issued orders mandating that all citizens “shelter in place” — stay at home for all but essential needs such as shopping for food or receiving health care. With this order came the closure of restaurants, bars, gyms and many businesses.”
Not sure lockdowns are responsible. California has a relatively low number of cases, which may be due to weather or other factors. And you have to remember lockdowns are only good for as long as they last. They are unlikely to eradicate a virus or prevent re-emergence. Please note that the area of California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico seem to all have a low number of cases. Could be a number of factors but may not be lockdowns. An excellent paper here: https://medium.com/@wpegden/a-call-to-honesty-in-pandemic-modeling-5c156686a64b also describes very well the issue of deferral rather than elimination of infections and deaths.
Willis is definitely right about getting rid of the lockdowns. On any reasonable cost/benefit analysis they are not supportable. We now have at least 20 million lost jobs. That joblessness results in substantial health and other social harms, including excess deaths. And I agree with the points in the paper I referenced above and that are found at http://www.healthy-skeptic.com, that the current mitigation efforts are merely delaying tactics.
they are only designed to be delaying tactics !
Flattening the curve is all about buying some time for a woefully inadequate healthcare system to get its act together and get the means in place to deal with a surge of patients.
This is not a discovery, it is the declared aim.
The containment boat sailed long ago and is not coming back. This is about mitigation and spreading the caseload over a longer period to render it more manageable.
Ultimately this virus will fizzle out because of herd immunity. We are simply negotiating how we get there.
Latest french data issued 24th March, shows this year is band on the seasonal average. This is not even a “bad flu years” so far.
If you are saying the weather in CA is responsible for the low numbers in the SF bay area then compare San Francisco with stable numbers to New Orleans or Miami where cases appear to be ballooning out of control. The difference is the early and continued lockdown (and compliance). It’s all about not overloading the health system, as Greg explains below.
Jo Nova says lockdowns do work Mr Eschenbach :-
“Willis Eschenbach, for example, wondered If Lockdowns Worked, but counted subdivisions of any quarantine type action as a measure of the severity when it’s more a measure of the wordsmithiness or indecision of leaders.”
http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/ancient-technology-wins-quarantine-and-isolation-still-work/
Hydrochlorquine is not being used in the UK, a BBC radio investigation tonight reported, the official treatment in the UK is paracetamol and ventilation, the reason we dont use hydrochlorquine is we have not done our own tests, two doctors who remained anonymous said” this is crazy we are ignoring tests and studies and successfull treatments across the world. The health service and NHS have banned the use of the drug, although doctors can use a untrialed drug if the gains clearly outway the risks, well there clearly not using the drug!!.
Such is the backward nature of the UK, allowing it’s own people to die rather than try a drug that is successful in other countries.
Big pharma are dictating policy. Blair similarly blew about £1.5bn on flu vaccines ‘just in case’. Never used.
Follow the money. There is not money in an old cheap, out of patent drug which even 3rd world countries can make.
The EU “discover” study has queered the pitch against Hydrochlorquine by ensuring it is only trailed in conditions it is already know NOT to cure.
that just leaves the pharmaceutical’s latest novelty anti-virals which have a chance of winning EU wide approval and multi-billion euros orders.
Luckily tests on the ground in Marseilles are going ahead with an effective protocol and will prove its effectiveness before the rigged antiviral trails are completed.
All over Europe, many children were wrecked by these useless, dangerous flu vaccines.
(And in Europe, very few children have their parents brainwashed enough to get them vaccinated.)
Why deny ourselves some antivax baloney indeed?
What is baloney?
Which vaccine is useful for European countries, or the US?
I’ve added an important update to the head post.
w.
Heres a economist take on the lockdown and effects .
https://youtu.be/V-r0Qk2_ceM
jeez another old git who is going to keep listening to his crap to get one scrap of information I could read in 10s. Screw Utube as a means of communication, life is short and getting shorter, very quickly !
But you did not get the information here that the old git published did you, nor did you publish the information which is relevant to the topic, you need to cool down and stop being so judgmental of people, his aftermath analogy is just as relevant as anything you have to say.
Makes good sense Willis… I love the evolution on this topic. I now see a path to us getting back to work sooner than I did before reading your post.
Let’s add that the course of action is guided by political winds, and by this s-storm from the Left, that no matter what decisions are made, the Left will provide damning condemnation. So your deep logic bolsters the case for getting out NOW or yesterday. Add to that, the growing potential from readily available Zn-ionophore-based options to help weaken the virus’ ability to replicate… and I see the light… thank you for spreading hope.
“Most people have no idea how much a trillion dollars is.”
An astute observation. This is a number outside most peoples’ experience. So let me put it in perspective for you. If you had a trillion dollars, and you spent one dollar per second, it would take you ONE TRILLION SECONDS to spend it all.
There, I hope that gives everyone some sense of proportion.
That’s funny… and it wasted a trillion of my brain cells reading your post…
Now, to make it more like what is happening…how much could you spend at a given rate of interest and never run out of money?
And account for inflation… Every dollar that gets created out of thin air, has the effect of a stock split.
Official french report from 24th March ( latest ) . This shows a near exponential rise testing , increasing about x2.5 each week . The out weighs the persistent climb in reported confirmed cases which is only doubling in 8 days.
Taking those two facts together suggests that France went through peak infection rate at least a week ago, maybe two weeks. The just forgot to notice.
I started digging this since I thought it improbable that the figures kept rising when other countries had peaked, The curve itself just did not smell right.
At best if it peaked two weeks ago , we should see a peak in fatalities in the next week.
The real question is, “Is Extending Lockdowns Worth The Cost?””
From my knowledge of writing code to simulate essentially every aspect of a nuclear Power Plant for use in both Accident Analysis and Training Simulator design it is obvious to me that all of the charts I have seen so far PREDICTING the future are BS. In essence, they only provide a good guess of what could happen AND an excuse for you to use if it is wrong and your actions do not achieve the intended goal. I do not see any real information being input into these graphs that will provide data that I would trust to make a life or death decision. The computer models I wrote were accurate to within less than 1/10 of a percent of actual events – both normal operation and design bases accidents.
The real decision being made is by people that want to maintain their position in elected offices and both sides of the problem have opposite views of what should be done. Each want the person they are running against to lose and them to win. However they have to take actions in a fashion that makes them look like they are doing the correct thing AND not make a decision that is not supported by these BS predictions. As I said in a previous comment.
The chart on Mosher’s recommended site indicates that Nebraska has No lockdown, Shelter in place. That is not the case. The Governor of NE let the Counties decide. The highest populated counties DO have shelter in place and ten person rule. All restaurants, bars, theaters, etc are closed. Most government offices have, few, if any people in them, far fewer than ten. It is about ten per building. Playgrounds, basketball courts, etc are closed. Only two people in a gas station or auto repair. Vet only lets one person in at a time and they are directed to an empty waiting room, and neither person in the office got within 6 feet of me. It sure seems like a lockdown to me. Thus whatever effect a lockdown would have is not shown in that chart, prediction, if they are following the assumptions at the top of that page. With twenty plus states in a partial lockdown and counted as no lockdown I am highly suspicious of the results. Kinda resembles CAGW results to me.
Going from “Do Lockdowns Work?” to “Is Extending Lockdowns Worth The Cost?”
It would have been better as a new post.
The new question is more relevant for many individuals but even harder to answer.
What we need to do is lower the R0. By now we should be calling it Rt, or R(t), as knowledge of the virus does change behavior, which changes the R value.
Uzur,
My reservations about the quality of data input to these epidemic models are also strongly informed by experiences with radioctive decay. I once owned a fast neutron generator for activation analysis, for one small example of relevant mathematics.
The past radiometric modelling had the advantage that it could be tested and verified. This epidemic modelling does not have that luxury, yet many feel that it is necessary for future management of medical responses to the emergency. Maybe it would help if researchers routinely put proper estimates of uncertainty onto their figures. Not limited to an ignorant Excel stats
figure from the fit of points to a graph, but the full Monty on accuracy such as the effects of various ways to assign mortality to a measured, rather than inferred cause.
It is all so hard when epidemiologists and onlookers who write about this topic are making the same errors about uncertainty that tainted global warming “science” from the beginning and made it unbelievable.
Geoff S
The numbers from IHME don’t compare to the AHA numbers? The AHA claims there are over 800,000 beds in over 6,000 hospitals in the US – excluding Federal Hospitals (about 213 Federal hospitals, VA, military hospitals, etc). Point is there are lots of beds. Over 60,000 ICU units excluding neonatal, burn units, etc.
Then there are the videos of private citizens visiting their local hospitals and recording that nearly all have empty admissions and emergency areas and rows of ambulances with their crews watching Netflex, etc. Parking lots nearly empty. And these at the “epicenter”. Hospitals have shuttered, in most states, all elective procedures. Even urgent and somewhat urgent care is beginning to be like Canada – getting a bonex set took takes days to schedule as a nephew of mine found out last week.
And then there’s the malarial cures many clinics are reporting. At the rate this is being used, there’ll be no need for clinical trials – the FDA and the good folks at CDC and the various governors can simply use a few tens of thousands of patient actual clinical treatments instead.
I am very familiar with the hospital industry and other facilities in our health system. We will find the beds. Equipment is a bit more of an issue. The real problem is health workers.
And Willis you are asking exactly the right question. But you are way off on jobs lost, 15 to 20 million already. The unemployment claims filing is an undercount because people who get any severance have to wait, but we are at over 10 million new unemployment filings in two weeks. Can you imagine the insanity of that, we destroyed 20 million jobs so far to defer a relatively few deaths, maybe save a very small number.
KR, yes.
Over 10,000,000 unemployed in two weeks, vs 6K dead. The medical professionals are giving us worst-case, proved wrong by the last few, H1N1, etc…
Ours will be the first economy in history to self-destruct, and when a business goes under, it is gone, does not pop right back up to the surface. The Donald would say that it will pop right back up, but he also knows this is not true. Time for him to step up and be the businessman that he is. Trump, save some jobs, quarantine the most at-risk and we know who they are even if one teen-ager died, and put America Back To Work!!!!!
He could say whatever he wants, but this did not start on his say so and will not end because someone says open up the ball parks, go back to the movies, open the schools, take a vacation, go shopping, go to the park, throw a party, etc.
No one wants to get sick…so he would merely lose credibility and no one would listen anyway if he did.
Looking at the death rate and ignoring that a far larger number get very sick for anywhere from a week to a month or more ignores the big picture.
No one wants to get sick, no one knows if they will get unlucky, and the numbers would be far higher if everyone tried to pretend it was not happening.
“..think about the alternative—voluntary self-isolation, particularly of geezers like me,…”
Why ‘particularly geezers’?
Today’s news has a 101 year old man and an 89 year old woman recovered from Covid-19 in Italy, or maybe it was Spain…
It would make more sense to isolate diabetics, asmahtics, those with high blood pressure, heavy smokers, etc..
But self isolation is difficult to impossible for some people, so there has to be organized support provided to keep them fed, medicated, etc.. Otherwise they’ll be out there taking their chances.
Willis: “Is Extending Lockdowns Worth The Cost?”
WR: At this stage (huge breakout of the virus) the right question should be:
“What is the [total] cost of continuing the social distancing (different forms) vs. the [total] cost of the disruption of society and economy in case of an uninterrupted spread of the disease?”
I think it is not possible to answer that question at this moment: both are unknown experiments for modern times. We can only infer from the experiences of the Spanish Flu that an uninterrupted spread of a devastating virus also (!) disrupts societies at very high costs. In modern times spread is enhanced by all modern means of transport and the spread of fear is multiplied by all modern communication.
I am afraid that a high damage for the economy can not to be prevented anymore. We are now paying a high price anyway because we have not been preparing society to fight the next dangerous virus – as Bill Gates has been asking years ago. *
Our economic problems are not [mainly] caused by the choices we make now. The cause for our present problems lies in the past. Wrong choices have been made: the Green Madness attracted all attention to imaginary problems and not to real ones that FOR SURE would be happening: only the date was not yet known. Only very smart persons like Bill Gates were warning us.
* https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/We-Are-Not-Ready-for-the-Next-Epidemic
Excellent comment!
Think about, or do the math for, using all the money wasted on Wind and Solar instead of on building CO2 free Nuclear Power and the amount not needed on power used on public health.
We’re not ready for the next CME, the next nuclear war, the next ice age, etc., etc., either. It’s ridiculous for Bill Gates and other fat cats to cry and wring their hands. The problem is that our system of government promotes sociopathic leadership and sheepish middle management, guaranteeing mediocrity and skulduggery. The rich and influential have no interest in saving the poor, except those few they need as servants and entertainers, so their primary efforts are to bolster their security with lifeboats (tickets off planet for plan C or D), and all the rest is PR to fool the angry peasantry and their newly “educated” offspring.
I find it impossible to believe that all the world’s leaders are so stupid as to swallow whole the posturing and panic mongering of the WHO and the CDC which has led to the disastrous disruption of the world economy. Yet it’s taken two months for any dissenting voices to be heard even over the most absurd directive of the above – that face masks should never be worn by the healthy except for health professionals.
Otropogo: “that face masks should never be worn by the healthy except for health professionals”
WR: EVERYTHING that brings down further contamination helps to end up this epidemic. The quoted sentence above is spoken by authorities and politicians who know THAT THERE ARE NO FACE MASKS. We have not been prepared for a virus outbreak. Politicians know that (now) and that’s why there is so much panic and confusion.
We have not been prepared for the real problems that ever will be here. After the virus a new realism will change future directives. This virus will mark a break in politics and will divide history in ‘the era before the virus’ and ‘the era after the virus’.
In the future real safety will play a dominant role. This virus shows that ‘feeling safe’ is a dominant driver for the acting of people. We even accept a temporary disruption of our economy to avoid the unsafety the virus causes.
This virus marks the start of an new ‘Era of Realism’. UN will have to concentrate on solving real problems: infrastructure for the poor, sanitation for the poor (making the world (!) safer), diminishing inequality (which will make many places safe again for ‘all other people’) etc..
Real science again will have to be restored by making Science again independent from politicians: money for (smaller?) universities again must be secured without the result of science to be influenced. Our experts again will need to be independent as well: not influenced by money nor politicians. The same for critical high quality media that completely disappeared in the last decades.
The ‘need for being safe’ will be recognized as the main driver for people. This will change the way we organize our societies.
The next goal for societies could well be Prosperity for All in a Safe Environment.
The UN is a sham, a place holder for real world government. It’s there to make sure no such entity will ever evolve. One good thing that has come out of this disaster is that anyone still capable of independent thought will see that the UN and its “health” agency , the WHO, are nothing but beggars and charlatans.
If it’s not their job to plan for pandemics, or at least to warn the people of the world that their governments have not planned and provisioned adequately for them, then whose job is it?
Just today I heard a medical “expert| warn against using stale dated N95 masks, despite the fact that recently published tests of such masks stockpiled in the USA showed that the great majority of such masks were still performing within spec more than four years after their expiry date.
And on another news report, a stockpile of millions of N95 masks was said to have been found stale-dated in the Province of Ontario, Canada, and therefore deemed unusable.
Apparently, our governments would rather let thousands be unnecessarily exposed to serious illness or death than test their existing stocks of masks for effectiveness. The same happens with “expired” medication constantly, despite convincing studies that almost all medications retain most of their potency years after these money making dates, and that there is no evidence of any toxicity resulting from their use.
This situation is particularly dangerous when a medication is only rarely required, such as rabies vaccines and thyroid blockers for radiation exposure. During the Fukushima incident, the Canadian government got pharmacists across the country to refuse to sell thyroid blockers to their customers while it pretended that it would provide this medicine to the public as and when needed. Exactly the same thing happened in China.
Of course, the real reason for this obstruction was that neither China nor Canada had enough stock of the product to fill demand. And the governments wanted to keep the existing stock for their own purposes.
The scarier conclusion that follows is that if the product were urgently needed, they would conceal the fact from the public. So even those who had some wouldn’t know to take it in time unless they had a personal radiation alarm. Those alarms were reportedly flying off the shelves in Tokyo and Hong Kong in the Spring of 2011.
Can you really expect such governments to change course?
Our current democratic system of government is based upon secrecy, hypocrisy and deceit. What chance is there for justice, fairness, or compassion in a society in which no honest person can hold onto public office long enough to achieve anything?
“We’re not ready for the next CME, the next nuclear war, the next ice age, etc., etc., either. ” And we now have a culture that the federal government SHALL provide all necessary material, workers, equipment, material, medicine, transportation shipment storage and purchase them for these “emergencies” with a moments notice and provide them to the needed communities the same day.
Factor that into the next federal budget an guess what your taxes will be.
Switzerland manages to keep three months’ worth of food, water, medicine, and coffee for all of its citizens in nuclear bunkers. Yes they have higher taxes, but they also have better health care, and they’re not starving.
But don’t worry. In Canada and the USA the reason for not preparing AT ALL for large emergencies is that it’s bad for business. Our governments don’t just fail to prepare, they DISCOURAGE us from properly preparing privately, and for the same reason.
As for our culture – when the broadcast media bring out the big guns, that “culture” will turn on a dime. Take masks, for instance. Yesterday, masks bad, BAD. It was starting to look like there would be laws and major fines for ILLEGAL POSSESSION of an N95 mask… Today, maybe masks not so bad. Tomorrow, you may get harassed, fined, or arrested if you’re not wearing one… Dr. Fauci is like a weathercock spinning in the wind, with the media following like lemmings.
How do we know if we are having an effect? At best we are saving perhaps 1/3 of the people who go on a ventilator, or even less.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/02/826105278/ventilators-are-no-panacea-for-critically-ill-covid-19-patients
No way to know if the 1/3 would have survived without ventilation. The whole point of this lockdown is to prevent overloading the ventilators. And now we are finding they may be mostly or wholly ineffective anyway?
Willis — I know you’re not an economist, but what do you think happens to the $2 trillion? It doesn’t get put in a big pile and burned. It goes to people who make something or provide some service, or to people out of a job who will spend it on something. It will go back into the economy.
I’m not a Keynesian — I don’t for a moment believe the “multiplier” is greater than 1 for government spending. But it’s not zero, either. So your calculation of dollars spent per life saved ignores any benefits from that spending, which doesn’t make sense.
Does the money get “put in a pile and burned”? Nope. But if all the Government doing is providing a lifeline for people who the Government actions have just put out of a job, it doesn’t move you forwards. Instead of running in the same spot, we could have kept our economy cranking and upgraded our hospital facilities to be the best in the world, provided dozens of field hospitals, converted unused buildings to quarantine facilities, produced hundreds of ventilators and thousands of masks, the possibilities were endless.
Now, we know for sure that those actions would have saved lives. Whether it’s more or less lives than the lockdown is an open question.
But at the end of the lockdown we have an economy in a shambles and hundreds of thousands out of work. At the end of the path I recommended before the lockdown, we’d have a humming economy and a medical system that would be the envy of the world.
Easy choice on my planet.
I’m reminded of the story of Milton Friedman in China, probably apocryphal but apropos. It’s said that Milton Friedman was once visiting China when he was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, thousands of workers were toiling away building a canal with shovels. He asked his host, a government bureaucrat, why more machines weren’t being used. The bureaucrat replied, “You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.” To which Milton responded, “Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, you should give these workers spoons, not shovels!”
So you’re right. The money doesn’t disappear … but if you want a canal (or a hospital) built, don’t use spoons.
Best regards, stay well,
w.
What you just described is exactly what freedom looks like if you can keep it. You’re right again Willis. This ain’t a binary choice.
Automation, mechanization along with cheap energy (being the slave to humans) leads to more stuff being made more effectively, which leads to abundance, which leads to lower cost per thing made, which means there is more stuff to go around. This is the definition of productivity, which drives cost per unit down, and keeps inflation low! This is how wealth accumulates.
When governments give you money that was not earned by making something of value, (not tied to productivity), you get what you’re paid for –nothing. When there’s not much stuff, cost goes up and leads to inflation.
In summary, printing money ALWAYS inflates the cost of stuff… this is not in doubt.
In NZ the money is being spent to give non-essential folk a very mild taste of what they are going to get when the Depression hits hard , when they are to be locked down in very miserable conditions; the lockdown being necessary then to maintain law and order when the sheer poverty and misery bites.
This is the plan we have followed , pretend to shut the border , pretend to quarantine arrivals from infected area , and pretend to lock down the non-essential, who are in fact just running around holidaying at taxpayer expense.
It’s the biggest psy-op since AGW. And it achieves the same goals.
Sadly , to large extent yes. It’s gets give to the Federal Reserve cartel. To a large degree this is 2008 all over again. Determined not to learn from the errors they made last ( if it was an error ) they are not putting strict conditions on the banks actually passing the money on.
We are already seeing stories of Bank of America ( which the public purse bailed out last time ) refusing to give credit to small businesses who are not already in debt with them. Businesses customers not already owing money to the bank are refused PPP loans.
“Easy choice on my planet.”
On the planet of wishful thinking that is.
Missing ventilators and beds is only one part of the problem. Missing health care workers a more serious one. Cause you cannot produce them in the same amount of time as equipment. These people are specialists and need training and experience to function. They are not machines and need rest and you cannot compensate easily for the staff that gets infected or worse dies.
If the system is overwhelmed by cases that need a lot of care other health issues will not get treated as they normally would worsening the overall health care. That is not a guess that is what already happens in New York. And they are asking for a lot more staff already with being probably 2-3 weeks away from the peak maybe even more.
Thanks, Ron. In 1968, the Hong Kong Flu killed 100,000 people. Given today’s population, that would be 150,000. And it happened without hysterics. It happened without lockdowns. It happened without “social distancing”. There was no economic crash, no mass unemployment, no thousands of businesses not surviving.
So it’s not “wishful thinking”. We’ve done the experiment.
Yes, it is possible that the American Lockdown might save some lives. Maybe 10%, although that seems doubtful. But how many lives could we have saved by putting that 2 trillion dollars into upgrading our medical system, buying plenty of PPE and ventilators, setting up quarantine hospitals in appropriate buildings, purchasing field hospitals, and upgrading our entire medical system?
I’d say it would be of the same order of magnitude as the lives possibly saved by the Lockdown … except that a) we KNOW that improving our medical system would save lives, and we BELIEVE that the lockdown would save lives, and b) at the end we’d have a functioning economy, nobody out of work, and a medical system that would have been the envy of the world.
Like I said … easy choice on my planet … and at 73, I’m in the high-risk group. Give me the improved medical system over the lockdown any time.
w.
Hi Willis,
there are two points you either miss or not really grasp. The first is the limitation of the health care system by the availability of qualified staff. For example Germany has 23k of beds for intensive care and they could double the number by short notice but they have not at all sufficient health caretakers for all those units. And that is something all the money in the world cannot solve. Okay, you can hire people from other countries but that is just redistributing the shortage not ending it. There is no short term solution to that problem.
Second is a corona virus is not influenza. It just isn’t. It’s like trying to substitute salt with sugar as both are crystalline and of white appearance. Just out of laziness I’ll cite myself from Lord Monckton of Brenchley’s article:
“What people don’t get about vaccination is that everybody produces DIFFERENT antibodies against a vaccine or a virus. So their antibodies work eventually very well against related viruses for some people just bc of the nature of their own specific antibodies are just by chance working against similar strains as well. If the similarity between the viruses is pretty high the antibodies will worked nearly all the time against both strains though I doubt one will achieve 100% just the way antibodies are produced by the immune system.
That is the same mechanism behind using an intentional infection with the cowpox to prevent death by a smallpox infection. The whole word vaccine comes from the latin word vacca for cow bc it was the first application of this idea in history.
Unfortunately, for COVID-19 that is just not the case cause most people were not exposed to something similar ever making it as big as a problem as it is.”
And that is exactly one reason why the Hong Kong flu was not that pandemic:
“The 1968 pandemic was caused by an influenza A (H3N2) virus comprised of two genes from an avian influenza A virus, including a new H3 hemagglutinin, but also contained the N2 neuraminidase from the 1957 H2N2 virus.”
There was already some immunity in the population. This time there is none. From the Korean numbers it’s not the death rate that worries me (that’s 1% which is not exceptional) it’s how contagious the virus is and how fast it spreads bc nobody has any immunity that would prevent its spread.
In case of influenza people who have already working antibodies from a just related but similar enough strain or vaccination will get infected but they will not spread the virus. Their immune system contains the virus without incubation time. That’s the tiny but game changer difference to asymptomatic infections without immunity where people are contagious without knowing it.
In addition to contact reduction and masks, I think the most important factor is testing, which leads to the quarantine of infected people. The countries with the lower death rate have relatively the most tests (Austria, Iceland, Norway, Germany) and are also on the more favorable side in Figure 1.