Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
[UPDATE—
Well, I got up today and fired up the weed wacker and went out to sweat a bit in the sun. You can see the mowed part at the bottom and the much larger unmowed part behind … I limit my fun to one tank of gas per day, makes my hands shake afterward.

And while turning tall grass into short grass, I thought …
Rats! I asked the wrong question!
The question is not “Do Lockdowns Work”? The answer to that is obviously yes. All different types of those restrictions, from the mildest to the most draconian, will have some effect on the speed of transmission. So “Do lockdowns work?” is meaningless.
The real question is, “Is Extending Lockdowns Worth The Cost?”
That is to say, will any further extension of the lockdowns make any difference? From what people say below, we don’t see the effects of the lockdowns for three weeks or so after the imposition of the sanctions. Now, thanks to a most interesting site provided by my generally aggravating friend Steve Mosher, the future of the US looks like this (the site also has individual states):

If the peak is in two weeks, and the effects of what we do today won’t be visible for two weeks, and at this point the possible changes are small, is that worth the huge damage this lockdown is doing?
The problem that I see is the cost. One week of lockdown has cost us two trillion dollars, along with thousands of failed businesses, people unable to retire because their 401Ks are in the toilet, hundreds of thousands unemployed, a big uptick in domestic violence, and lots of jobs lost.
Now, I estimate that something on the order of 80,000 people will die in the US from this virus. (Curious me, I also looked up the estimate from the model above … 93,000.) Suppose the “flattening the curve” saves 10% of them. By all indications, it won’t, but let’s use that number.
That means that we have spent two trillion dollars to save maybe 8,000 people.
And that, in turn, means that we’ve spent a QUARTER BILLION DOLLARS PER PERSON, most of them over 70 like me but unlike me with other diseases, and put our economy in the crapper in the bargain. I may be wrong, but somehow I don’t think my life is worth a quarter billion dollars.
Now, think about the alternative—voluntary self-isolation, particularly of geezers like me, along with putting two billion into field hospitals, quarantine hospitals, accelerated doctor and nurse training in quarantine procedures, ventilators, masks, quarantine ambulances, drug production of antibiotics, chloroquine, and whatever drugs we need, instructional videos on social distancing, and the like.
I’d say there’s a good chance that we could save more than the 8,000 people by that method, and no matter how many we saved, we’d end up with a) a medical system second to none, b) a humming economy that just had two trillion poured into increased production, c) on-shoring our drug-production industry, d) no business losses, unemployment, or job losses, and e) no uptick in domestic violence.
Call me crazy, but I do NOT want to spend another two trillion dollars to prop up a mostly “feel-good” lockdown ..
Given the general ineffectiveness of these various lockdown-type interventions in the Western countries, and given that a couple weeks of lockdown have already cost us a trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of vanished jobs and failed businesses and unemployed workers …
… given all of that, I have to ask … is yesterday too soon to end the lockdowns?
Don’t give up. Just end the stay-at-home shelter-in-place regulations. Leave a strong VOLUNTARY self-isolation on geezers like myself, retired folks. Test incoming visitors to the US. Keep washing hands. START WEARING MASKS!.
Let’s get the country back to work before any more people go bankrupt or are unable to pay their rent.
Anyhow, that was my morning. How was yours? I’ve changed the title of the post, and left the original title as well, for searching purposes. And now, here’s my original post.
Best wishes to all for good health,
w.]
Before this $%^&* lockdown started, I said “SPEND THE $1 TRILLION ON OUR HEALTH SYSTEM AND DON’T LOCK THE UNITED STATES DOWN”!!!
(See, back then they were only talking one trillion. But it’s politicians spending OPM, so of course now it’s two trillion.)
And from everything I’ve seen up to now, I was right. Near as I can tell, the lockdowns in various countries have done little & our health system is still inadequate. However, that’s just anecdotal. So here is some harder data on the question.
First, almost every country has implemented some forms of health interventions, ranging from the mild to the Chinese-style totalitarian clampdowns.
And as the Koreans have shown, this can work … but only if people are willing to have quarantines enforced with GPS locations and a surveillance state and GPS contact tracing that shows everywhere you’ve been in the last two weeks. As far as I can see, you have to be Korea or China to pull that one off, and no western country has even tried it.
And as a result, there is very little difference between the spread of disease and the concomitant rate of death in any of the western countries. Figure 1 shows the tragic trajectory of death in the 14 countries with the highest death rates.

Figure 1. Coronavirus deaths versus the number of days since the country went over 10 deaths per million people.
As you can see, there is very little difference in the death rates between the various countries, despite the fact that they all have differing levels of health interventions to try to prevent the spread. They’re all following the same trajectory.
Now, other than lockdowns, what kind of health interventions am I referring to? Glad you asked. Over at ACAP you can download a dataset of the different kinds of measures used by different countries. They list no less than 33 different types of health interventions being used to fight the coronavirus, viz:
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- Amendments to funeral and burial regulations
- Awareness campaigns
- Border checks
- Border closure
- Changes in prison-related policies
- Checkpoints within the country
- Complete border closure
- Curfews
- Domestic travel restrictions
- Economic measures
- Emergency administrative structures activated or established
- Full lockdown
- General recommendations
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Humanitarian exemptions
- International flights suspension
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Limit product imports/exports
- Limit public gatherings
- Lockdown of refugee/idp camps or other minorities
- Mass population Testing
- Military deployment
- Obligatory medical tests not related to COVID-19
- Partial lockdown
- Psychological assistance and medical social work
- Public services closure
- Schools closure
- State of emergency declared
- Strengthening the public health system
- Surveillance and monitoring
- Testing policy
- Visa restrictions
So I used that to see if countries with more of those restrictions fared better. Here, for example, are the restrictions imposed by South Korea over time. Some are listed twice because they were expanded or made more rigorous over time:
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Limit public gatherings
- Visa restrictions
- Visa restrictions
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Schools closure
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- Surveillance and monitoring
- General recommendations
- Additional health/documents requirements upon arrival
- General recommendations
- Partial lockdown
- General recommendations
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Psychological assistance and medical social work
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Surveillance and monitoring
Quarantine, then surveillance, then more rigorous quarantine, then even more rigorous surveillance and quarantine. I don’t believe that Americans would put up with that.
However, being a graphically minded sort of person, I then made a scatterplot of the number of distinct kinds of restrictions a country has imposed versus the number of deaths per ten million in that country. Figure 2 shows the result:

Figure 2. Scatterplot, number of kinds of restrictions to try to prevent viral spread versus coronavirus deaths per ten thousand.
As you can see, the number of restrictions seems to have little to do with the number of deaths. For example, here’s what Switzerland has done. These are the different restrictions they’ve applied.
- Limit public gatherings
- Border checks
- Visa restrictions
- State of emergency declared
- Schools closure
- State of emergency declared
- Border checks
- Visa restrictions
- General recommendations
- Strengthening the public health system
- Awareness campaigns
- Testing policy
- Limit public gatherings
- Border closure
- Limit public gatherings
- Economic measures
- Limit public gatherings
- Partial lockdown
- Full lockdown
- Partial lockdown
- Economic measures
- Economic measures
- Limit product imports/exports
- Military deployment
- Limit public gatherings
- International flights suspension
- Limit public gatherings
- Strengthening the public health system
- Visa restrictions
- Economic measures
So the lack of visible effect is not from a lack of restrictions. Nor is the lack of visible effect because the restrictions haven’t been in place long enough. Switzerland imposed the first restrictions forty days ago, on the 21st of February. They closed the schools. On the 24th of February, the government declared an “extraordinary situation,” and banned all private and public events and ordered restaurants and bars to close. At that point, they had no coronavirus deaths. [UPDATE: A couple of people said that Switzerland’s restrictions had not been in place that long. Upon rechecking my sources, I find they were right and I was 100% wrong. However, my point remains—the different restrictions haven’t made any detectable difference to date, and the crunch is coming in one or two weeks for most countries. So any effect will be minimal, if not detectable, and meanwhile the economic and human cost is horrendous.]
They currently have 433 deaths from coronavirus. Forty days of sanctions with no effect.
Meanwhile, the Swiss have about the same number of deaths per ten million population as say Netherlands, and here’s all that the Dutch have done:
- Introduction of quarantine policies
- Limit public gatherings
- Schools closure
- Public services closure
- General recommendations
- Economic measures
- Emergency administrative structures activated or established
No lockdown, neither partial nor full. No limitations on import/export. No suspension of flights. No visa restrictions. No state of emergency. No border checks.
And despite that … they are on a par with the Swiss, despite all of the Swiss containment measures.
Or you could look at it another way. Germany, the US, Portugal, France, and Spain have all instituted the same number of restrictions … but their deaths go from low to high.
So it seems that my intuition was correct. Unless you are willing to impose a full-blown police and surveillance state, these measures do very little. The problem is that this bugger is so insidious. It has a long incubation period when it is infectious but asymptomatic. And it can live on surfaces for days. As a result, in terms of government restrictions, nothing but a major Korean-style full-court press, with surveillance and strict quarantine and a populace willing to follow restrictions to the letter, will cut down the number of cases.
And Americans simply won’t do that. In fact, it’s impossible to get Americans to just shelter in place. If you go out into the streets of the US, there are lots of people working, lots of people going from place to place, grocery stores full of people … control the virus?
I don’t think so.
But regarding controlling the virus, here’s another graph. It’s exactly the same as Figure 2, but it contains Japan as well.

Hmm … they’re in the danger zone, near to Korea and China, so what extreme health measures are they practicing? Here you go …
- Health screenings in airports and border crossings
- Visa restrictions
Whaaaa? That’s all the restrictions? … my only conclusion from that is simple.
WEAR A MASK.
The one virus health practice that distinguishes Japan from most of the world is that they all wear masks in public. Even the liberal US news media is noticing the effectiveness of masks—a CNN story is headlined “Face masks and coronavirus: Asia may have been right and the rest of the world is coming around” … seems the US specialists were wrong again. Go figure.
A mask cuts transmission down in two ways. First, it keeps you from touching your mouth or nose. This both protects you until you can wash your hands, and if you are infected it keeps you from spreading the virus onto hard surfaces to infect others.
Next, it keeps you from sneezing or coughing a billion virus particles into the air. It’s less effective at preventing you from inhaling such particles, although it helps with that as well. And it is that sneezing and coughing that is the major way that the virus is spread.
And overall, as Japan is showing us, wearing a mask cuts the transmission rate way down.
We’re starting to get there, but it may be too little too late. I see that the genius medical experts who recommended the ineffective drastic lockdown are now thinking about recommending that Americans wear masks. The headline in Politico says “Fauci: Mask-wearing recommendation under ‘very serious consideration’” … under consideration?? They’ve destroyed the American economy without looking back, but a simple recommendation to wear a mask in public requires “very serious consideration”?
Sigh …
We can see above that there’s very little upside to the American lockdown … so let’s look at the downside. First, the economic damage from the current insane “shelter-in-place” regulations designed to thwart the coronavirus is already huge—lost jobs, shuttered businesses, economic downturn, stock market losses. This doesn’t count the personal cost in things like increased suicides and domestic and other violence. The people who made the decision obviously were led by doctors, which was good, but they did not listen to economists or social scientists, which was lethal.
To partially compensate the populace for those stupendous economic losses, we’ve just thrown two TRILLION dollars in the general direction of the problem. That’s trillion with a “T”. Most people have no idea how much a trillion dollars is. Consider it this way.
Suppose you were an immortal who made so much money that you were able to spend a million dollars a day forever. In the first week, you buy 350 ventilators at $20,000 each and give them to the various states. The next day you buy 200,000 face masks at $5 a pop, epidemic prices. Then you decide to take a year and buy a field hospital every day, 365 of them at a million dollars each. That feels so good that you decide to set up full hospitals. They’re something like 1.5 million dollars per bed. So you can buy a 250-bed hospital per year. You spend the next two hundred years doing that, two hundred new hospitals, 50,000 new beds.
Now that’s only about a hundred years of spending a million bucks a day. Suppose further that you started spending one megabuck per day, that’s a full million dollars each and every day including weekends, back on January First way back in the Year One. And imagine that you spent a million dollars a day every day right up to the present, buying medical equipment, expanding medical schools, purchasing test kits, a million dollars a day from the year 1 right up to the year 2020.
Guess what …
…
… you still would have spent far less than a trillion dollars, only about three-quarters of a trillion. And to spend two trillion, you’d have to spend a million dollars a day for 5,500 years.
Can you imagine what our medical system would be like if we spent a million dollars a day on it for fifty-five-hundred years?
Instead, we’ve pissed the two trillion away on repairing the damage caused by the lockdown without getting the economy started again, plus wasting it on all the pork that got loaded onto the bill.

Consummate financial idiocy that only politicians could ever think was reasonable, logical, or practical. Mark Twain was right when he said “Suppose that you were a Member of Congress. And suppose further that you were an idiot. But I repeat myself.”
So … how about we all put on masks, keep washing our hands, give up our steamy midnight rendezvous (rendezvous?) with pangolins, increase testing particularly of our medical personnel, start testing for antibodies, and end this stupid lockdown? The pluted bloatocrats in Congress are already dreaming up a new appropriations bill to waste another trillion dollars or so that we cannot afford. Me, I say, let’s quit while we’re behind and get back to work.
Here on my forest hillside where the redwood trees scratch the sky, it’s my great fortune that my daughter, her husband, and my infant granddaughter have come to spend the lockdown in the woods … and both I and my gorgeous ex-fiancée are overjoyed that they are here. They’re working from home, and we’re retired, so all is well chez nous.

So stay well in these parlous times, dear friends. I see that Chloroquine has been approved in India for Covid-19 treatment. I had malaria four times, so I know that drug up close and personal. Plus I took it once a week for a year as malaria prophylaxis. And I used to take three weekly doses per day for three days in a row if I felt malaria coming on, and that would stop it in its tracks. So I’d take it again in a minute.
And I also saw that the advisor to the Italian Health Minister has said that only 12% of the Italian deaths were actually deaths FROM Covid-19, and the rest were deaths WITH Covid-19. So things may be looking up.
Regards to everyone,
w.
The Usual: When you comment please quote the exact words you are discussing, so we can all be clear who and what you are referring to.
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Naive maths alert!
I’ve been plotting simple numbers of new daily deaths in a number of countries.
The y axis naturally is on a log (10) scale.
I looked for some simple metric of whether the curve of deaths per country was steepening, staying linear or “flattening”. Now in crappy Excel almost none of the “trendline” options work, so I was left with second order polynomial. OK howls of protest at bad maths. But I am looking quickly for something really approximate.
So I obtained the quadratic (square) term of the fit of daily deaths over the last ten days.
That is, in y = ax^2 + bx + c, the quadratic is a.
Then I divided a by each country’s population for normalisation.
Finally this number which was really small was multiplied by a billion to make it above 1.
Anyway here are the results, I think they give an idea of which countries still have an accelerating outbreak (UK, Belgium, Sweden) and which are starting to flatten the curve (Italy, Spain, Netherlands):
UK, 94.75
Belgium, 77.05
Sweden, 43.35
France, 32.40
USA, 6.24
Germany, 3.69
Iran, -5.21
Portugal, -8.38
Netherlands, -30.43
Spain, -83.22
Italy, -125.82
Phil, if you would like an alternative to crappy Excel , look at this post for one of my graphs where I fit a linear regression on the log scale using gnuplot. I’ve posted code to reproduce the analysis and the graph.
https://climategrog.wordpress.com/2019-ncov-log-growth-italy-2/
It’s early days but Belgium also looks like its past peak COVID.

You can see when the peak in cases is reached, e.g. Italy, and the peak in deaths will follow.
Willis, great work. I hope this will be widely reported on social media and picked up by mainstream media..
What has been overlooked is the spread of the virus by asymptomatic individuals, because people release droplets into the air during normal speech. Using a mask would significantly reduce this.
These do not need to be N95 masks which are in short supply. If fact many N95 have an exhaust vent and do not protect against release of droplets.
As such, a simple bandana such as popularized by villains in westerns may be more effective than a vented N95 mask.
Agreed. Masks are most useful for not infecting others. Important if visiting at risk folks. Anyone of good health probably should be contributing to herd immunity by getting some exposure and developing antibodies, rather than hiding in a cupboard.
The human race already has the capacity to produce a “vaccine”, we should be putting our evolutionary finely tuned systems to work, not praying for the vultures in big pharma for salvation.
And now the alternative view :-
http://joannenova.com.au/2020/03/we-can-hammer-coronavirus-in-weeks-instead-we-go-to-war-unarmoured/
How to make your own mask :-
http://joannenova.com.au/2020/03/masks-can-stop-maybe-75-of-influenza-and-you-can-make-them/
Suppression is GONE. It worked pretty well in S.K. because they got in early with a lot of tests and followed up. They now have the task of “dancing” on a high wire preventing the protected and non exposed population exploding into a new epidemic.
In EU and US that boat sailed long ago. However smart you think strategy may be, that is now an academic, historical discussion.
Jo’s info on home made masks in interesting , I’ve recommended that to a mate who was freaking out about not being able to buy masks anywhere. ( He is in an at risk category since he had heart surgery about 10y back and has been on ARBs ever since ).
Some of the info Jo copies is highly suspect, like hanging “masks” in the sun to sterlise them. Just in case no one noticed the sun light is pretty straight and always seems to come from the same direction. How that is supposed to sterilise all the surface of a used mask seems to have escaped attention.
The scatterplot simply shows that governments get more desperate as rate of deaths climb. Most are reactive and way behind what was necessary to control the spread and avoid massive death toll. POTUS Trump is now justifying his initial lack of response to CV19 saying he was distracted by impeachment proceedings. All US states will end up with severe restrictions as their tolls mount. So far only WA is showing effectiveness.
There are still dingbats who are advocating let it rip.
Australia has some natural benefits regarding virus spread like being a sparsely populated island. But we have plenty of dingbats who need government intervention and enforcement to keep people apart – fines have already been levied for breaking quarantine and hosting/attending group functions. As at 2nd April, Australia has 22 deaths and 345 recovered. Our states are locked down and some rural communities, within states, have been locked down.
Australians can be thankful to Lewis Hamilton who was vocal and influential in preventing the Australian F1 GP from running. If that event had been held with a crowd of some 250k flying in from around the globe and mingling, Australia would be in dire straits now.
Willis
I have no comment to make about the virus, it will unfold and be resolved one way or another. I do think that people need to feel that they are proactive.
I want to thank you for sharing your beautiful letters. I know that generally speaking this site covers particular ‘issues’, and that was it’s purpose. But every now and again people touch on some small aspect of their personal life and it’s a reminder to me of our humanity, that each and every one of us has a story.
Ask any Nuclear Plant Radiation Worker if they would wear an N95 in an airborne particulate radiation contaminated area. 50 years working at military and commercial nuclear power plants and I do not recall ever seeing a paper mask. You will notice that at the University of Nebraska isolation facility hospital employees used Positive Pressure masks and had received instructions on their use.
N95 filters only 95% of the particulate coming through the mask. They do not filter the air that does not go through the mask but around the sides. And that is why they are not used for radiation.
You may also want to ask a painter how effective the majority of the mask you see people walking about are. Used one once for spray painting and from then on used the much more expensive ones that work.
I’ve used respirators every working day, for decades. In dusty environments. Sat through many “proper face-fit” training sessions. If the person is clean shaven, then a good fit is easy to obtain. If the job requires wearing of a respirator, and the employee has facial hair, then it is shave or go home (or the employer has to buy a full-face respirator with air supply). PPE is issued “free” in the UK, and if issued, its use is mandatory. They work. Paint sprayers have to be provided with air-fed masks.
Willis, as I said before its a case of slow it down e or let it happen as per the yearly flu.
He in Australia and no doubt elsewhere there is much talk of “Flattening the curve””.
That to be sounds like, “”We do not t have enough beds as per cutbacks over the years, so lets cover that up by making things happen a little slower
The is a saying from I think UK PM , “”Never let a crises go to waste””
Politicians love to create a so called emergency, then save us from the effects. Please remember we saved you, so vote for us next time.
I would like to see the actual death figure if a normal l flu season. Trump is right in saying the the cure is worse than the virus and shutdowns.
VK5ELL MJE
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/153567601001500204
There’s another way of sorting.
What if we could sort by degree of economic damage.
It would be interesting because the least economic damage is done by letting ‘er rip and culling the herd of the aged and infirm. Kinda rough, but in the long term, that’s what will happen. The herd gets immunity, the economy is doing fine and the taxes are rolling in.
If I was a King or a Queen or an Emperor, why would I not be thinking that way?
So I think that a sort by regime type could be interesting.
Who still has a King or a Queen?
Sweden , Netherlands, Denmark, U.K. , Belgium , Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, Spain etc.
Then we might predict that Socialist outfits like NZ at present, would “improve ” the economy to align with certain desirable economic outcomes that they want to do anyway, and which always produces disaster anyway, and pretend not to cull the herd while ensuring that the less essential are sacrificed.
Makes sense , doesn’t it?
Willis,
In a rare case, sadly, I disagree with you about masks. I think they might have positive psychology for those who feel that they must do something. Not much more.
To date, I have not seen epidemic data sufficiently good to be credible for the types of graph analysis you show. Readers can misinterpret log graphs if they are not used to them.
There are too many further factors that differ country to country.
I understand government desires to flatten the curve but have not seen evidence of it working. Not enough time has elapsed.
I regard wearing masks as like putting on a life vest when a tsunami is approaching. It might help a few.
I stress that in the main, you and I think alike about problem solving.
https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-work-revealing-review/
https://newsbook.com.mt/en/a-warning-on-the-use-and-reuse-of-surgical-face-masks-respirators/
“…only 12% of the Italian deaths were actually deaths FROM Covid-19, and the rest were deaths WITH Covid-19. So things may be looking up.”
Wouldn’t that also be the case with any bad flu or virus epidemic? Any bad illness is likely to push the elderly or those with underlying conditions over the edge. But that doesn’t mean they might not have lived for several years longer without the virus speeding up the process. If I shoot someone with stage 4 cancer, should I be able to avoid conviction for murder because they were likely to die anyway? I just don’t see why the above stat means that things are “looking up.”
If you would put Korea in Figure 3 (figure 2 with Japan added), it would be somewhere close to Japan. The number of fatalities is relatively low and the number of restrictions is also small. The government is strongly encouraging all sorts of social distancing (work at home, musea closed, no events, …), but it is far away from a lock down.
In my opinion, the fact that people wear masks is one of the measures that has helped to keep the total number of infected people down. Even before Corona, Koreans were used to wearing masks once in a while, when air pollution levels were high. While Americans want to stock on toilet paper, Koreans stand in line to buy masks.
Other thing that has helped in keeping the total number of infected people down is less physical contact, which is a cultural thing. In the US and in Europe, people hug, kiss or shake hands when they meet. In Korea, people do not kiss or hug their friends, colleagues and relatives. Very often a polite bow and verbal greeting is enough.
Does China follow those practices?
…..never mind I don’t trust the Chinese regime at all
Forget lockdowns, how about racism?
Here is the reaction of the manager of my local coop in Brattleboro VT to the situation:
What planet is this person living on? What is it they so afraid of and what in the friking world does it have to do with white supremacy? Am I missing something here?
Why have people become so delusional? Is it something in the water?
https://www.brattleborofoodcoop.coop/gm-report/2020/04/the-impact-of-fear/
Why have people become so delusional?
Some, not all, faith based belief systems demand it.
Is it something in the water?
No, it’s a faith based belief system called, “Progressivism.”
Three (four) types of lockdowns:
1. lock down everybody
2. lock down the elderly
3. lock down the infected
(and no effective lockdown)
1. ruins the economy, or at least some of the people who used to be in it
2. has been proven a failure, since those locked in care homes are the hardest hit
3. would be best, but for the problem that there is no way to tell who is infected
The alternative to lockdown, social distancing, has only made a marginal difference so far, and does not reduce R0 enough to stop the virus from spreading.
The alternative to social distancing is social shields, aka masks.
Masks are not understood. Seen as protection for yourself, true it’s only partial. But it is protection for others.
“I protect you, you protect me.”
https://youtu.be/HhNo_IOPOtU
The graph which makes the point very clear:

Don’t Breath On Me!
did you help or hurt?
lockdowns only work if you have compliance.
compliance depends upon believing their might be a problem
Did you work to create doubt?
1. Did you try to minimize the problem? its just the flu
2. Did you question data when you dont have the skills to understand it?
3. Did you model the disease when you dont understand the field?
4. Did you compare deaths from covid to car wrecks?
5. did you cherry pick a dataset ( diamond princess)
6. did you ask for covid death certificates?
7. did you promote cures that dont have double blind tests? all the while demanding you
were a defender of the scientific method?
8. did you call people with concerns alarmists?
9. Did you suggest warm weather will help? ( I did this one)
10. did you call for antibody testing when its weeks away?
11. did you demand reliable data in order to make decisions, thus undermining the
necessity of making decisions under uncertainty?
12. Did you suggest there might be less lethal strains?
13. Did you question experts and promote your own nonsense?
In short did you do anything to help convince your fellow citizens that their compliance
with common sense was not important,. In short, did you ensure that voluntary “lockdowns”
would not work?
My favorite comment of all was this, undermine sensible suggestions ( more tests) with
a strawman argument
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/02/27/cdc-covid-19-possible-us-case-of-chinese-corona-virus-from-an-unknown-source/#comment-2927090
markW
‘Steve won’t be happy until we have weekly, mandatory testing of everyone in the country.”
More funny were the people arguing about death rates when there 68 cases in the USA
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/02/27/cdc-covid-19-possible-us-case-of-chinese-corona-virus-from-an-unknown-source/#comment-2928592
I know 1 thing. volunary lockdowns like we have in Korea appear to work, But that’s because the public
complies and they listen to the civil defense experts.
The nutjobs who go to church and believe Jesus will protect them are getting sick.
Darwin I suppose
You stay where it’s safe, Steven – those of out in it, will do our best to keep everyone else supplied with your essentials.
one of the better models
look up your state
https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
No wonder New York is in strife. Their need outstrips capacity by a factor of 10. The military will be collecting bodies in a matter of days.
Pentagon is ahead of the game here seeking 100,000 body bags:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/pentagon-seeking-100-000-body-bags-for-civilians-in-virus-crisis
Thanks, Steve, fascinating site.
w.
I question this data in that for the state I live in, Nebraska, they declare that there is NO Stay at home directive, NO closed schools, NO work closures, NO travel restrictions. However, all of the counties around Omaha, and Lincoln have done this with the exception of “Travel Restrictions.” If their model uses/assumes no restrictions on the population for their projection the results would be wrong. Cursory view of other states on that chart makes me think the same lack of county restrictions effect is probably true for other states.
Looking at the Johns Hopkins COVID19 MAP you can see that there is little need of the restrictions outside of Lancaster, Douglas, Sarpy and Washington county. ~90 percent of the population lives in those counties.
who inspires these nutcases?
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/engineer-allegedly-crash-train-usns-mercy-los-angeles/story?id=69926172&id=69926172
All of the woefully misinformed rush-to-the-bottom panic-babies
do lockdowns work?
https://twitter.com/hausfath/status/1245496629718700032/photo/1
25% is an exponential growth with a doubling time of 3 days. The early variability is just noise due to low numbers.
He does not even state which states he has cherry picked, which line is which state or when any restrictions came into force in any particular place.
That is a meaningless spaghetti graph with which he tries to suggest something but does not provide any relevant information to confirm or refute the hypothesis.
So just like how so-called Climate Science operates! No wonder the drive-by king was drawn to it.
No one in my household has been in a public building for nearly two weeks. I do go outside, but not within 20 feet of anyone else (much less 6 feet). Nor will I be for the foreseeable future, if I can help it.
A mask accomplishes nothing in my case, so I don’t wear one. Save them for people who do.
Willis,
You write “As you can see, there is very little difference in the death rates between the various countries, despite the fact that they all have differing levels of health interventions to try to prevent the spread. They’re all following the same trajectory.” However, Italy’s deaths/ 10 million people is 2180, while Germany’s is 110. That seems a very big difference to me. Also, Germany’s first reported case was on Jan. 26, and Italy’s was on Jan. 29. Their trajectories aren’t even close.
A more important factor, I think, is that the Chinese government flat out lied about the start of the spread, how contagious it was, and how many cases and deaths they actually had. If that bug had been running loose since Dec. 2019, with no one aware of the fact, it could have spread far and wide before people started dying. Shutting things down after those horses had left the barn won’t help the people already infected, but it can limit the exposure of people who missed catching it the first couple of months.
As for the two trillion bucks, look at the bright side: the money is going to US citizens and businesses — who paid those taxes — so look at it as just a whopping tax break/credit.
A final note: The CDC estimates that up to 69,000,000 Americans were infected with swine flu back in 2009; around 13,000 died. That’s a mortality rate of approximately 0.02%. Right now, the estimated mortality rate of COVID-19 is 2%. If 69 million Americans caught this bug, 1,380,000 Americans could die — nearly twice the number that died of Spanish flu back in 1918.
That would probably wreck the economy as well, AND we’d have a massive death toll. Maybe having only a damaged economy is worth it.
James Schrumpf
” That would probably wreck the economy as well, AND we’d have a massive death toll. Maybe having only a damaged economy is worth it. ”
Thank you James Schrumpf for these wise, useful AND necessary words.
How is it possible not to agree with you?
J.-P. Dehottay
nice to try to be optimistic but your taxes have already been give to the owners of the Federal Reserve bank cartel to pay for existing loans of the fiat currency you allowed them to print and then sell to your govt.
The “stimulus” is just another banks bailout, like 2008 with no controls or conditions. You will start pay the interest on that in the next accounting period.
As for the two trillion bucks, look at the bright side: the money is going to US citizens and businesses — who paid those taxes — so look at it as just a whopping tax break/credit.
Wow let me say thanks for the brilliant insight here JS. Just a couple questions though:
Do you think turning the Treasury Department into a large investment bank with almost unlimited discretion is a recipe for cronyism, favoritism, poor results, and taxpayer losses? Or do you believe that government is overall efficient, just, and careful with everyone else’s money?
Some $299.4 billion is provided for small-business loans in this bill. The definition of small business includes non-profits. Shall I “look at” this scenario as those “who paid those taxes”? Did the non-profits pay any taxes, Jim? Further, the loans aren’t based upon creditworthiness, but rather simply whether or not the business existed as of 3/1/20. Could you define the “bright side” of offering loans of my money to, e.g., 1) morons who don’t know how to run a business or 2) those who just started their business back in February, with no track record of success?
Did you know that a large proportion of these “loans” aren’t loans at all, but in effect, grants? “Section 1105 provides that businesses taking these loans ‘shall be eligible for forgiveness of indebtedness on a covered 7(a) loan in an amount equal to the cost of maintaining payroll continuity’ from March 1, 2020, to June 30, 2020.” Look at that, there’s no need to pay my money back! Now let me ask you Jim, given the “gubmint” does not have a track record of taking losses upon itself, what do you think it’s going to do when it needs all that money back that it just gave me?
But hey, what bad stuff can happen when government is in charge of giving your money away indiscriminately right? Thanks for helping us to see the “bright side” Jim!
Sycoputing,
I’m sorry that my writing skills were not sufficient to transmit my intent that “look at the bright side” was meant to be a throwaway line.
Who’s “Jim” BTW? Did you mix up your attributions?
I’m sorry that my writing skills were not sufficient . . .
Obviously my fault, thus no need to apologize. I should’ve known your comment was in reality a throwaway from the content of the argument itself.
Who’s “Jim” BTW? Did you mix up your attributions?
My fault again, James. I made an assumption that you’d be familiar with the diminutive of your own name. “Never assume” shall be my lesson learned from this experience. Thank you!
If 69 million Americans caught this bug, 1,380,000 Americans could die . . . That would probably wreck the economy as well, AND we’d have a massive death toll.
So you’d argue that 1.3M Americans dying, and thus going out of the workforce, “would probably wreck the economy” like 6.6M Americans out of work along with the entire country’s economic engine shut down? This brings a certain light to, “How is it possible not to agree with you?” don’t you agree?
Do you live in Himmelsfee Deutschland as well, Jim?
Sycoputing,
One path leads to a wrecked economy with 1.4 million dead, and another leads to a wrecked economy and many fewer dead.
Take your pick.
Take your pick.
Well, see you went and did it again. I think you’ve assumed yourself into a textbook False Dilemma logical fallacy. I don’t believe the choice is as you say Jim, that’s the point.
At any given point in time in the United States, +/-1M people are unemployed for various reasons already. In a total workforce comprising +/- 157M individuals, that’s around .6%, if my math is correct (and one may not assume it is without checking). Now let’s double that according to your assumptions. Explain how that’s going to wreck the economy of the United States of America.
This is the kind of absurd numbers and fuzzy thinking that is driving the current bad policy making. That death rate is simply absurd, there is no evidence anywhere to support that. But even worse, the vast majority of deaths are of older people who aren’t in the workforce. So the impact on employment of those deaths is minimal. No one wants to see any excess deaths or illness, but to make up numbers and then do a false balancing is a big part of the problem. And so far, all anyone says that the extreme lockdowns are doing is deferring infection and death, not eliminating, with the possible, and it is only a possibility of excess deaths due to overwhelmed health resources. So if your numbers were right, we are going to get most of those deaths eventually anyway.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e1.htm?s_cid=mm6914e1_x
educate yourselves
Steven Mosher
“… including the avoidance of congregate settings. ”
Exactly. Exactement / Genau.
And maybe it’s good to add: the denser a population, the less its willing to discipline, the greater will be the necessity to keep it at home, unfortunately at the cost of many drawbacks, of which increasing home aggressivity against women and children certainly is not the least.
J.-P. Dehottay
You think only men are capable of “aggressive” ?
I could tell you about two extremely violent and dangerous women that I know and another two who are narcissistic psychopaths. The first two share the same traits as the second two except that they could kill you if you if you provoked them. The second two would totally crush you psychologically and then tell others how badly you treated them.
How are we supposed to trust data, papers, coming from China? Report from CIA yesterday indicates they have been less than truthful.
The US is on the same track as Italy was 18 days ago. Italy could reach 100,000 US equivalent deaths within the next 6 days as they seem to be reaching a plateau of around 750 deaths a day the last 6 days which is equivalent to 4500 US deaths per day. Italy is sitting today at 13155 deaths which is the equivalent of 72400 US deaths. Italy appears to have plateaued. We have yet to reach the turn Italy has made. So the will see 100,000 deaths in 3 – 4 weeks if we just stay on track with Italy. See the following chart:
Willis:
“And I also saw that the advisor to the Italian Health Minister has said that only 12% of the Italian deaths were actually deaths FROM Covid-19, and the rest were deaths WITH Covid-19. So things may be looking up. ”
IF this 12% actual deaths from COVID-19 over the reported figure in Italy is actually the case, and unless the US is following that same standard of over reporting COVID-19 deaths here, then the US is certainly doing a much poorer job with respect to a death outcome when compared to Italy. Italy did travel containment in the northern region early on and implemented a travel ban with flights from China on the same day the US did. If that is the case I don’t think “maybe things are looking up”.
You do make a compelling case for masks, and that never made any sense what the US was saying about not wearing masks. The US slow response in producing plenty of PPE early on has been a disaster, and that is what Trump will be judged on in the next election. Fairly or not.
‘”750 deaths a day the last 6 days which is equivalent to 4500 US deaths per day”
should read
“820 deaths a day the last 6 days which is equivalent to 4500 US deaths per day”.
It was only in the last few days that any doubts were expressed about masks; less than a week. Up until that point masks were a given, and doubt was only expressed about healthy people wearing masks and causing a shortage of masks for medical workers and others who really needed them. Their efficacy was never in doubt.
I fail to see how anyone can say “the US is certainly doing a much poorer job with respect to a death outcome when compared to Italy.” Italy has 1906 cases/ 1 million population and 230 deaths / 1 million population, while the US has 735 cases / 1 million population and 18 deaths/ 1 million population. It boggles the mind that someone could look at those numbers and say the US is doing worse than Italy.
Did you look at the graph? I stated that US is on the same track as Italy was 18 days ago. So if we continue down Italy’s trajectory, we will have the same death ratio in 18 days as Italy has today.
We are Italy delayed by 18 days. I am not looking at cases only death, which is the best indicator.
“Cluster A. A woman aged 55 years (patient A1) and a man aged 56 years (patient A2) were tourists from Wuhan, China, who arrived in Singapore on January 19. They visited a local church the same day and had symptom onset on January 22 (patient A1) and January 24 (patient A2). Three other persons, a man aged 53 years (patient A3), a woman aged 39 years (patient A4), and a woman aged 52 years (patient A5) attended the same church that day and subsequently developed symptoms on January 23, January 30, and February 3, respectively. Patient A5 occupied the same seat in the church that patients A1 and A2 had occupied earlier that day (captured by closed-circuit camera) (5). Investigations of other attendees did not reveal any other symptomatic persons who attended the church that day.”
“Cluster F. A woman aged 58 years (patient F1) attended a singing class on February 27, where she was exposed to a patient with confirmed COVID-19. She attended a church service on March 1, where she likely infected a woman aged 26 years (patient F2) and a man aged 29 years (patient F3), both of whom sat one row behind her. Patient F1 developed symptoms on March 3, and patients F2 and F3 developed symptoms on March 3 and March 5, respectively.”
“Cluster B. A woman aged 54 years (patient B1) attended a dinner event on February 15 where she was exposed to a patient with confirmed COVID-19. On February 24, patient B1 and a woman aged 63 years (patient B2) attended the same singing class. Two days later (February 26), patient B1 developed symptoms; patient B2 developed symptoms on February 29.”
Similar investigations in China ( from CCTV on buses) and In Korea ( churches)
“Presymptomatic transmission might occur through generation of respiratory droplets or possibly through indirect transmission. Speech and other vocal activities such as singing have been shown to generate air particles, with the rate of emission corresponding to voice loudness (7). News outlets have reported that during a choir practice in Washington on March 10, presymptomatic transmission likely played a role in SARS-CoV-2 transmission to approximately 40 of 60 choir members.*
Now of course skeptics will question the “correlation ” between singing and catching the critter.
They will doubt any evidence Because they can!
See all those clusters in churches? well, its not proof as any skeptic will tell you
where are the death certificates! it could be dying WITH covid , not from Covid.
doubt reigns supreme, carry on as usual.
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2020/04/01/floridas-statewide-stay-at-home-order-still-allows-churches-to-gather-followers-during-coronavirus-outbreak
Any way, doubters will continue to behave the same as they always behaved because no one has Proved to them that they are wrong. And they will encourage you to doubt!
This is a soft form of medical advice.
doubters will continue to get infected because they know better, and don’t trust experts, and the Chinese data is shit, and this is just the flu, and because they think lockdown don’t work, and because chloroquine is a cure, blah blah blah, they will continue to get infected. It’s their right.
Doubters will continue to get infected ( they do here in Korea)
and that doubter probably just handed you your take out bag at the McDonalds window after
picking his nose. he’s not concerned, therefore you should not be.
Oh poor dear Steven
Republican strategist Stuart Stevens here being interviewed and explaining some of the underlying reasons why the US has become exposed as the world’s least prepared western nation.
Griff-ter:
The US is clearly not the least prepared Western nation.
Deaths per million people:
Spain 266
Italy 263
Belgium 125
France 116
Netherlands 103
Switzerland 79
UK 73
Sweden 40
Denmark 31
Portugal 29
USA 28
Germany (18) and Austria (23) have lower death rates than the US only because they don’t test the dead.
The majority of US deaths attributed to WuFlu are in the NYC metro area, due to its high incidence of Chinese nationals, same as Lombardy, the European epicenter.
Well, Chinese data IS the shit. Chloroquine might be a good treatment, but not necessarily a cure.
I can’t imagine the agony of getting Wuhan virus all for seeing the Yellow Crane Tower.
What is Wuhan virus? Is that a new one?
Profound evidence that things are getting better
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/49867/
Tracking the Coronavirus
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/49863/
Coronavirus and weather-Good news!
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/49391/
FDA approves COVID-19 fighting drugs
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/49777/