(Apologies to Winston Churchill the brave Battle of Britain people.)
Guest opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and the people who formulated the structure that directed their research, constantly manipulated the data and the methods to predetermine the results. It began with the definition of climate change given to them as Article 1 of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC). This involved overstating and misrepresenting the amount of atmospheric CO2 currently, and in the past. It also included misrepresentation of its movement through the so-called carbon cycle.
You can pick any segment of the Carbon Cycle they show in Figure 1 (Their Figure 6-1, Fifth Assessment Report) and none of it is based on actual measures, that is real data; everything is an estimate and can’t qualify even as an educated guess.
Figure 1
As they explain,
Numbers represent reservoir mass, also called ‘carbon stocks’ in PgC (1 PgC = 1015 gC) and annual carbon exchange fluxes (in PgC yr–1)
What they should say is that every single number is a very crude estimate biased to support their claims of an unproven hypothesis that human CO2 is causing global warming (AGW). They must provide a bold disclaimer that they have no actual measurements of anything, there is no real data. They provide a vague disclaimer as Box 2.1 “Uncertainty in Observational Records” in Chapter 2 of the Physical Science Basis Report but this is misleading and deflects from the real issue.
The vast majority of historical (and modern) weather observations were not made for climate monitoring purposes.
So, even the weather data is inadequate or inappropriate. They must also say that virtually none of the other data even exists.
The black numbers represent the estimated reservoir mass and exchange fluxes for the time prior to the Industrial era (1750). That in itself is ridiculous. Even today, we have no idea of fossil fuel reserves. Saudi Arabia has consistently refused to disclose the level of its reserves. You would think people who evolved from the Limits to Growth crowd, would know with their failed “peak oil” contention not to rely on any global resource statistic. A standard project in my geopolitics class was for students to determine the amount of fossil fuel reserves in Canada and the world. They were stunned by the range of numbers they get. When you consider that the two supposedly most accurate estimates of world population (the US Census and the UN) differ by almost 6 million people (2011), you get a measure of the problem. We don’t have even close to accurate estimates today, let alone 268 years ago. But then, these are the people that tell you, with a frightening and utterly unjustified degree of certainty, that they know what the global temperature was in 1750.
I will only look at one segment of the diagram labelled Vegetation and Soils. I challenge anybody to give me within even 20 percent an estimate of the extent of world forests in 1750. However, the IPCC do just that.
The terrestrial biosphere reservoir contains carbon in organic compounds in vegetation living biomass (450 to 650 PgC; Prentice et al., 2001) and in dead organic matter in litter and soils (1500 to 2400 PgC; Batjes, 1996).
Remember, this was close to the nadir of the Little Ice Age (LIA). My research for central Canada, based on accurate maps, showed that the tree-line at the northern edge of the Boreal forest moved some 200 km between 1772 and 1972. This is a movement of 1 km per year in one of the harshest growing environments in the world. It also represents a massive addition to the biomass in just this vegetative type
One of the great natural paradoxes is that the tropical rainforest exists on the most impoverished soils in the world. Understanding why this occurs underscores why the IPCC claims are so wrong. Most people know there are two basic tree classifications, coniferous evergreen, and deciduous – leaves, no leaves. The tropical rainforest is both. It is never without leaves, but leaves are falling all the time and constantly being replaced. Without this condition, the forest could not exist. The climate has an annual precipitation of 2000 mm or more and year-round temperatures averaging between 20 and 30°C.
These conditions literally leach the soil of most minerals leaving only iron and some aluminum. This is the red laterite soils of tropical regions (Figure 2). Soils that if exposed by removal of vegetation, either erode rapidly in the heavy rain or bake iron hard in the tropical sun.
Figure 2: Laterite
Basically, the rainforest exists because it perpetuates itself. The leaves are continually falling and rot quickly to become nutrients for the tree. The two largest natural sources of CO2 are the oceans and the decomposing vegetation, the IPCC’s “dead organic matter.” There is a disturbing analogy to the IPCC process in this sequence. It produces the rotten data on which it perpetuates itself.
People of the tropical rainforests practice a unique agriculture that describes the process, “slash and burn.” They clear a small area and burn the material to provide enough minerals for a couple of years of cropping. They then abandon the area to allow regeneration on the small amount of organic material left behind. In the 20th century, three attempts to create large-scale agriculture in the tropical rainforests failed primarily because of ignoring the inexorable infertility of the soils.
The first was Henry Ford’s project to grow rubber trees in plantations in Brazil. It centered on a community called Fordlandia. The second failure was known as the Groundnut Scheme and involved a British government plan to ensure a supply of the most important agricultural product in the world, vegetable oil. Groundnut is the British name for peanut. Begun in 1950 in Tanganyika (Tanzania today), it lasted 10 short years, again primarily because of the soil situation. The third failure was the brainchild of American billionaire Daniel Ludwig. He believed the cold climate forests would not be able to meet the demand for paper from pulp, so he established a plantation of a rapid growing tree around a town called Jari, again in the Amazon basin.
Here is a quote from an article published in 2017 that breathlessly announces,
A study conducted by Brazilian and British researchers, published by Nature, showed that swamped areas in the Amazon rainforest produce between 15 and 20 million tons of methane every year – the equivalent of emissions by all oceans combined.
Did the IPCC extrapolate that data back to the 1750 level? Of course not! It, like the amount of CO2 from rotting vegetation under the Amazon rainforest, is just another vast unknown. The numbers used by the IPCC for CO2 from the oceans and rotting vegetation have an error factor that each alone exceeds the total human production. Despite that they claim that the annual increase in CO2 is, to use their terminology, very likely (90-100%) to account for the annual increase in atmospheric CO2 since 1950. This fits the Mauna Loa trend very nicely, but the measurements and instrumentation used there are patented and controlled by the Keeling family, first the father and now the son. These readings are the source of atmospheric CO levels used by the IPCC. The father was a fervid believer in human CO2 causing of warming, and the son is a member of the IPCC. Further, in a perverted twist to ensure false data quality control, the IPCC generate their own estimates of the annual production of human CO2.
If the oceans are the major source and sink of atmospheric CO2, then why doesn’t the warming El Nino events show up in the Mauna Loa record. A 2015 story about El Nino states,
El Niño has its fingers in a lot of pies this year: Not only is it helping to boost 2015 toward the warmest year on record but it is also a major factor in blockbuster hurricane activity in the Pacific and is contributing to a major worldwide coral die-off.
None of this proved correct.
Reportedly, a strong El Nino occurred in 1998 that pushed global temperatures to a high within the instrumental record. Why doesn’t it show on the Mauna Loa record when the seasonal variation of the vegetative cover appears quite strongly? (Figure 3)
Notice the source of this figure is the Scripps Institute of Oceanography. It is also the place of employment of Mauna Loa patent owner Ralph Keeling and the promoter of AGW alarmism Naomi Oreske (Figure 4). Where is the reflection of CO2 increase due to the dramatic ocean warming and temperature increase caused by El Nino?
Figure 4: Keeling, Oreske, and Talley Photographed at Scripps after notification of Nobel Prize.
The entire AGW hypothesis is the biggest deception in history. It is no surprise that it is built on the biggest deception about actual data. The open and blatant representation of all the data in the IPCC Reports as real data is beyond shameful.
It is appropriate that the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report includes an obituary to Stephen Schneider. He began and attempted to justify the idea that dishonesty was necessary to promote the false story about AGW in a 1989 quote.
On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but — which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we’d like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broad-based support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So, we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This ‘double ethical bind’ we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.
The second last sentence is false, like the data used by the IPCC. What he really means is, if you study climate science you have to decide whether to be honest or dishonest. We know, from the unreal ‘data’ they present as real data, which one they chose.
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Well said. The same exact thing can be said about their fictional heat budget cartoons that don’t even recognize potential energy or the fictional ocean heat content diagrams that show huge swings in heat in and out of the ocean without any effect on the atmosphere’s temperature.
The IPCC theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=451m6-oil94
Re: The “Great Debate” featuring Mann in Charleston WV tomorrow.
Here’s the latest puff-piece from the very liberal Charleston Gazette.
They are declaring this is a conversation, not a debate.
And they are already pushing the false “97 pct of scientists” meme.
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/spilman-law-firm-to-host-climate-change-conversation-tuesday/article_21749d67-d316-5054-948a-008213ddfdeb.html
IPCC – International Porcine Cash Consumers
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JxSLnvxP0w&w=560&h=315%5D
Excerpted comment by Dr. Tim Ball:
First of all, the seasonal variation of the vegetative cover has nothing whatsoever to do with the yearly average increase …….or the biyearly (seasonal) cycling [increases/decreases] of atmospheric CO2 ppm as denoted on the Keeling Curve Graph.
And secondly, the resolution of the KC Graph is too small, …… thus one has to look at the actual Mauna Loa data to see the correlation between El Nino sea surface temperature increases …. and increases in atmospheric CO2 ppm quantities, …… and here is factual data for your consideration, to wit:
Maximum to Minimum yearly CO2 ppm data – 1979 to May 2018
Source: NOAA’s Mauna Loa Monthly Mean CO2 data base
@ur momisugly ftp://aftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/products/trends/co2/co2_mm_mlo.txt
CO2 “Max” ppm Fiscal Year – mid-May to mid-May
year mth “Max” _ yearly increase ____ mth “Min” ppm
1979 _ 6 _ 339.20 …. + …… __________ 9 … 333.93
1980 _ 5 _ 341.47 …. +2.27 _________ 10 … 336.05
1981 _ 5 _ 343.01 …. +1.54 __________ 9 … 336.92
1982 _ 5 _ 344.67 …. +1.66 __________ 9 … 338.32
1983 _ 5 _ 345.96 …. +1.29 El Niño __ 9 … 340.17
1984 _ 5 _ 347.55 …. +1.59 __________ 9 … 341.35
1985 _ 5 _ 348.92 …. +1.37 _________ 10 … 343.08
1986 _ 5 _ 350.53 …. +1.61 _________ 10 … 344.47
1987 _ 5 _ 352.14 …. +1.61 __________ 9 … 346.52
1988 _ 5 _ 354.18 …. +2.04 __________ 9 … 349.03
1989 _ 5 _ 355.89 …. +1.71 La Nina __ 9 … 350.02
1990 _ 5 _ 357.29 …. +1.40 __________ 9 … 351.28
1991 _ 5 _ 359.09 …. +1.80 __________ 9 … 352.30
1992 _ 5 _ 359.55 …. +0.46 Pinatubo _ 9 … 352.93
1993 _ 5 _ 360.19 …. +0.64 __________ 9 … 354.10
1994 _ 5 _ 361.68 …. +1.49 __________ 9 … 355.63
1995 _ 5 _ 363.77 …. +2.09 _________ 10 … 357.97
1996 _ 5 _ 365.16 …. +1.39 _________ 10 … 359.54
1997 _ 5 _ 366.69 …. +1.53 __________ 9 … 360.31
1998 _ 5 _ 369.49 …. +2.80 El Niño __ 9 … 364.01
1999 _ 4 _ 370.96 …. +1.47 La Nina ___ 9 … 364.94
2000 _ 4 _ 371.82 …. +0.86 La Nina ___ 9 … 366.91
2001 _ 5 _ 373.82 …. +2.00 __________ 9 … 368.16
2002 _ 5 _ 375.65 …. +1.83 _________ 10 … 370.51
2003 _ 5 _ 378.50 …. +2.85 _________ 10 … 373.10
2004 _ 5 _ 380.63 …. +2.13 __________ 9 … 374.11
2005 _ 5 _ 382.47 …. +1.84 __________ 9 … 376.66
2006 _ 5 _ 384.98 …. +2.51 __________ 9 … 378.92
2007 _ 5 _ 386.58 …. +1.60 __________ 9 … 380.90
2008 _ 5 _ 388.50 …. +1.92 La Nina _ 10 … 382.99
2009 _ 5 _ 390.19 …. +1.65 _________ 10 … 384.39
2010 _ 5 _ 393.04 …. +2.85 El Niño __ 9 … 386.83
2011 _ 5 _ 394.21 …. +1.17 La Nina _ 10 … 388.96
2012 _ 5 _ 396.78 …. +2.58 _________ 10 … 391.01
2013 _ 5 _ 399.76 …. +2.98 __________ 9 … 393.51
2014 _ 5 _ 401.88 …. +2.12 __________ 9 … 395.35
2015 _ 5 _ 403.94 …. +2.06 __________ 9 … 397.63
2016 _ 5 _ 407.70 …. +3.76 El Niño __ 9 … 401.03
2017 _ 5 _ 409.65 …. +1.95 __________ 9 … 403.38 (lowest CO2 ppm in 2017)
2018 _ 5 _ 412.45…. +2.80
The above data is proof-positive of an average 5 to 6 ppm decrease in CO2 that occurs between mid-May (5) and the end of September (9) of each calendar year …… and that there is an average 7 to 8 ppm increase in CO2 that occurs between the end of September (9) and mid-May (5) of the next calendar year.
Sam C Cogar wrote, “the seasonal variation of the vegetative cover has nothing whatsoever to do with… the biyearly (seasonal) cycling [increases/decreases] of atmospheric CO2…”
That’s a surprising claim. What is its basis?
Note that CO2 levels decline throughout the spring and summer (while days are longer than nights), as you would expect if seasonal variation in terrestrial vegetation were one of the causes.
Additionally, in the southern hemisphere, where the ratio of land to ocean is much lower, the seasonal variation in CO2 levels is also much smaller, again as you would expect if seasonal variation in terrestrial vegetation were one of the causes:
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/Latest-greenhouse-gas-data
So, why do you think seasonal variation in terrestrial vegetation is not one of the causes of the seasonal variation in CO2 level?
Dave,
I certainly do not want to put words into Sam’s mouth, but I think you may be misunderstanding him on this point. His numbers clearly demonstrate the link between ENSO and CO2 growth rates (incidentally, from a CO2 growth perspective, the El Niño in 1986/1988 appears to be rather important, even though it was not a “very strong” one). I think his key point is that the annual growth is distinct from the annual cycle. The relationship between ENSO and CO2 growth has been known for a very long time and should not be controversial. If I recall correctly, Sam is not a fan of δ13C data (sorry if this is wrong!), but in fact that is what proves that the annual variation, but not the longer term growth, reflects vegetation, exactly as he states and, in my view, this is dominated by the Boreal forests. If you wish to study this in more detail, you need to look at the Scripps data for multiple observatories and (something which seems to be little known here) the OCADS data:
https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/ocads/oceans/Moorings/Pacific.html
I cannot show any plots, yet, as mine are on a site that does not support https, but I shall try to update stuff as soon as I can. We cannot discuss this sensibly without sharing the actual data.
So askith does: Dave Burton
Dave, to answer your last question first, to wit:
It is not why I think it is true, ….. it is why I know it is a true scientific fact.
Shur nuff, Dave, what you stated here is true, to wit:
“YUP”, they have been declining an average of 5-6 ppm during the spring and summer for the past 60 years as per the Mauna Loa Record. And that spring/summer decline was not caused by longer days and shorter nights.
But, but, but, ….. spring/summer seasonal growth in/of “green growing” terrestrial biomass vegetation in the Northern Hemisphere is not, and I repeat, IS NOT, one of the causes of the bi-yearly spring/summer decrease in CO2 ppm. And that’s because green-growing biomass is dependent on warm temperatures (60F or above), moisture (liquid H20), Sunshine and CO2 which is ingassed via the stomata AFTER the plant foliage has developed. (Don’t get excited, reads on.)
And guess what, Dave B, microbial decomposition of dead biomass in the Northern Hemisphere is also, and I repeat, IS ALSO, dependent upon those same warm temperatures (60F or above) and moisture (liquid H20). And those microbes doing said “decomposing” are outgassing copious amounts of CO2, …. and they are “hard at work” doing their decomposing and CO2 outgassing, …. 24/7, rain, shine.
And because CO2 outgassing due to microbial decomposition of dead biomass starts 2 to 4 weeks earlier than the CO2 ingassing due green biomass growth, …… and said CO2 outgassing due to microbial decomposition continues 2 to 6 weeks after the green biomass growth ceases (stops), ….. then spring-summer outgassing of CO2 is surely equal to or greater than the ingassing of CO2. And don’t forget, green growing biomass also outgasses CO2 at nighttime.
Dave B, the claim that ….fall and wintertime microbial decomposition of dead biomass in the Northern Hemisphere is responsible for the fall and wintertime increase in atmospheric CO2 ppm, ……… is a biological impossibility, …… which is affirmed and attested to by the US Department of Agriculture (see below), as well as most every Department of Health on the face of the earth.
(nice to see a carbon thread without ol’ you know who here to cotton bomb it)…
I’m unconvinced, Sam, and I am sure it is not “a biological impossibility.” Refrigeration only retards bacterial and yeast growth, it doesn’t stop it. You can ferment unpasteurized apple cider in a refrigerator, and milk will certainly spoil in a refrigerator.
Right now, I’ve got a whole lot of sequestered carbon that needs mowing, and a lot more is growing on the trees in my yard. At the end of the summer there will be a very large pile of that sequestered carbon, behind my house, among the trees. By springtime, that large pile will be a much smaller pile. In my experience, in my own NC yard, carbon sequestration clearly outpaces desequestration in the spring/summer, and the reverse is true in the fall/winter.
I do not dispute that bacteria grow faster in warmer weather. I suspect that termites do, too. But so do plants. What’s more, the relative lengths of days and nights probably has much more effect on photosynthetic plants than on anything else.
I suspect that my yard is not atypical, and that, in general, plants (sequestering CO2) outpace microbes and termites (desequestering CO2) in the spring/summer, and that the reverse is true in the fall/winter, in most places.
That’s just my intuition, but it is consistent with the CO2-level patterns in northern and southern hemispheres: the large seasonal cycle in the northern hemisphere (where there’s lots of land & terrestrial plants), and the much smaller seasonal cycle in the southern hemisphere (where there’s much less land, fewer terrestrial plants).
If you don’t believe it, then what is your explanation for the differing seasonal cycles in the two hemispheres?
Do you think that water temperature changes account for the seasonal cycles?
If the cause of the seasonal cycles were water temperature changes (warming water outgassing CO2, cooling water absorbing it), then why doesn’t the southern hemisphere have larger seasonal cycles than the northern hemisphere, instead of smaller seasonal cycles?
Oops, mea culpa. My sincere apologies, Dave, I was the one who misunderstood. But that would explain why, if my memory is correct, Sam does not like the δ13C data!
Jim, I’ll respond this time, to wit:
Jim Ross [responding to Dave B] – June 11, 2018 12:42 pm
Absolutely correct, Jim Ross, the annual average increase of 1-2 ppm in atmospheric CO2, as per the Keeling Curve Graph and/or Mauna Loa data, is a direct result of the “warm-up” of the ocean surface water from the “cold” of the LIA.
“Wrong”, Jim Ross, I really don’t have a problem with said “δ13C data”, except for the fact it is “much ado about nothing of importance”.
The literal fact is, I have a serious problem with the “junk science” claims being touted by people such as Ferdinand E concerning the half-arsed guesstimated “quantity” measurements for the various “sources n’ sinks” of the δ13C isotope.
Jim R, iffen you keep believing what FE tells you, ….. you will soon be taking things back …. that you didn’t take in the first place.
Those per se “experts” don’t have a “clue” what the total quantity of fossil fuels are that are “oxidized” each year, …… yet they don’t hesitate for “second” at telling everyone pretty much exactly what the effects/results are after said “oxidation” occurs.
Those per se “experts” are expert at “reverse calculating” to obtain their required “input data facts and figures” that prove whatever they wish to tout as factual science. Such makes for an easy n’ quick “pal review” of their work.
Dave Burton – June 11, 2018 8:22 pm
Dave, iffen the plants and trees in the NH only “ingas” an average 6 ppm of atmospheric CO2 to create “yearly” biomass growth, …. then how is it possible for only part of that newly created biomass growth to “outgas” an average 8 ppm of CO2 back into the atmospheric when it decomposes? …… Sucking up 6 ppm and coughing out 8 ppm …… sounds like magic to me.
Shur nuff, …… Dave, ….. that large pile of dead biomass will ONLY be 30%-40% smaller come Springtime, with most all of that shrinkage due to “gravity” ….. and very little of it due to rotting or decay. But it sure as hell didn’t completely decompose and release all of its sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere as CO2, ….. now did it?
Dave, how can you make such a silly claim when you just got thru telling me that the compost pile you created in the Fall ……. is still mostly all there on the ground among the trees in your yard when Springtime arrives.
Dave, I can’t honestly answer your question unless you cite me specific examples (location, date and altitude) where your aforesaid “differing seasonal cycles” were recorded
Dave, what are those “seasonal cycles” you keep harping about? Ifffen you stick with the ML Record you won’t constantly be in a “state of confusion”. To wit: ftp://aftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/products/trends/co2/co2_mm_mlo.txt
“DUH”, there is only one (1) “steady n’ consistent” seasonal cycle in the natural world, …… and it is the bi-yearly “changing of the equinoxes” that occurs on March 21st and September 21st of each calendar year. And the temperature of the ocean surface water is the “control knob” for atmospheric CO2 quantities ….. and with the greater surface area of ocean being in the Southern Hemisphere, then its ingassing/outgassing of CO2 determines the CO2 measurements being recorded atop Mauna Loa Observatory, Hawaii, which is located in the Northern Hemisphere.
Dave and others,
I have had the same discussion with Samuel several times in the past to no avail. Just to make a few points:
– vegetation decay goes on within a heap of fallen leaves even when freezing and certainly under a snow deck even at -20 C outside temperature, as measured in Alaska from the CO2 releases through the snow.
– The opposite CO2 and δ13C levels show that vegetation is the main source of the variation, not the oceans. Here for Mauna Loa and Barrow:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/seasonal_CO2_d13C_MLO_BRW.jpg
As one can see, May has the highest CO2 levels and the lowest δ13C levels, from that month on plant growth overtakes plant decay up to August for Alaska or September for average the NH.
Ferdinand Engelbeen – June 12, 2018 4:00 pm
BRAVO, BRAVO, ……. Ferdinand, …… via your above statement you have completely discredited all claims and research findings associated with …. “glacial ice cores and their entrapped atmospheric CO2 molecules”.
“DUH”, as per your above statement of fact, ….. iffen CO2 molecules can ESCAPE through the snow pack in Alaska, …… then CO2 molecules could sure as hell have ESCAPED through the yearly snowpack in Antarctica and Greenland where those “ice cores” were drilled.
Samuel,
Of course air and thus its CO2 content can pass fresh snow. That doesn’t change the CO2 level of the air, except if there are CO2 level changes in the free air above the snow. Then you will get a mix of old and new air with their different CO2 content. That goes on in the snow mass and deeper, but slower and slower until the pores of the snow – firn – ice are too small to allow further exchanges.
Therefore CO2 levels in ice cores are always a mixture of several years to several hundreds of years of air, including their CO2 levels.
Ferdinand Engelbeen doth attempts to CHA:
Shur nuff, Ferdinand, that aforenoted parcel of air and its CO2 content can pass “thru” fresh snow without any change(s) in the CO2 level of said parcel of air, …… BUT ONLY iffen you have a vacuumized container atop that fresh snow to entrap that parcel of air.
Ferdinand, iffen that aforenoted parcel of air you spoke of, had both CO2 molecules and tinny weenie gremlins in it, would the number of gremlins under the snow remain the same ……. after those gremlins escaped through that layer of fresh snow?
Well “DUH”, ,,,, Ferdinand, what are you telling us, ….. that CO2 level only change if or when there are changes made in/to the CO2 level. Brilliant, Ferdi, brilliant.
Ferdinand, I don’t know whether to “label” your above posting of June 13, 2018 5:40 am, as being the result of a delusional mindset, an intentional act of arrogance to foreshadow your ignorant comments or a simple case of intentional obfuscating.
Samuel,
You are mixing two totally different processes, only to obfuscate what happens in the really world.
1. Fresh snow is 80% air, and has lots of pores. No matter if that lays on a heap of fallen leaves in Alaska or on older snow in Antarctica.
2. Both in Alaska and Antarctica, there is a continuous exchange of air, including CO2 between the atmosphere and the pores in the snow and below in the case of Alaska. That process ends at about 70 m depth in Antarctica.
3. Fallen leaves under a snow deck in Alaska simply continue to decay, even when the outside temperature is -20 C. That is measured, as CO2 rich air from the heap reaches the atmosphere above the snow deck. That enriches the atmosphere with CO2 all winter long in the NH. From less cold countries, vegetation debris is continuously decaying, fastest in fall, less in winter and faster again in spring/summer.
4. There are no fallen leaves under the snow in Antactica where ice core samples are taken. Thus only exchanges with open air are going on until the air bubbles are completely isolated from the atmosphere.
Ferdinand Engelbeen – June 13, 2018 12:06 pm
Shur nuff, Ferdi, ……. and so is a fresh loaf of bread.
Is all fresh bread 80% air with lots of pores? ….. Hell no.
Is all fresh snow 80% air with lots of pores? ….. Hell no.
Ferdi, you really need to spend 1 or 2 years in Canada, Finland, Norway, Upstate New York or Switzerland before you attempt to impress me or anyone else with you knowledge of snowflakes, snow cover, snow accumulations, etc., etc.
And Ferdi, best you START your “snow education” by reading this, to wit:
Shur nuff, Ferdi, ……. and raw hamburger on the kitchen table in the Yukon simply continues to decay, even when the outside temperature is -40 C.
Tell us, Ferdinand, …. did all of those fallen leaves under that snow deck in Alaska completely rot away (decay) before the return of Springtime temperature of greater than 4.4 C?
Try again, Ferdie, ….. the decaying of dead biomass is the SLOWEST in the fall (September and October), slower than it is in the wintertime. And that is because Sep/Oct are the driest months of the year in the NH. ….. And DRY food is PERSERVED food, …… it won’t rot or decay.
Right you are Ferdie, …… FASTEST in spring/summer when it is warm and wet.
Ferdinand, you really need to limit your “scientific discussions” to Kindergartner and First Graders because they would be mighty happy to learn that …… “4. There are no fallen leaves under the snow in Antactica[sic] …”
Samuel,
As usual, it doesn’t make any sense to discuss this with you, as you don’t accept even what is really measured in Alaska and Antarctica.
In my country, there are mild winters with as maximum a few days to a few weeks day freezing and snow. In fall I make a heap of fallen leaves and after winter that is about half the height in fall. The rest I use(d) to add to the soil for new plantings,
I had somewhere a diagram of how CO2 releases from vegetation debris were over the months, but lost the reference. That was over the whole hemispheres, not only above the polar cycle…
About the exchanges within snow fallen in Antarctica, that is measured and modelled for the Law Dome ice core and other ice cores. See page 40 of:
http://earthweb.ess.washington.edu/Glaciology/courses/ess431/LECTURES/2006/Lect_15_Ice_Cores_2_2006.pdf
Air is flowing freely through the first 15 meters of the snow deck in Antarctica. Down to 50 m, there still are -slower- exchanges by diffusion.
Ferdinand, your above testimony that only half (50%) of the past growing season’s production of dead biomass decomposes during the fall and winter ……. absolutely, positively discredits your claim that the NH’s rotting biomass is responsible for the bi-yearly (wintertime) average 5-6 ppm increase in atmospheric CO2.
Ferdie, when the other 50% of your fallen leaves rotted during the spring-summer, what happened to the CO2 ……. which you haven’t accounted for?
Samuel,
Last response, because as usual, you don’t want to change your mind, whatever argument I do provide…
The total biomass that can decay over a full year can’t be much more than the total biomass that was made available from growth in last year + some of what was left from previous years.
According to the latest measurements, the whole biosphere is a net. small sink for CO2 of about 1 GtC/year in average, but wildly variable with temperature. That means that in total less biomass decays than is grown in the past year(s).
Even if only half of my pile of fallen leaves is gone in winter and the other half in spring/summer, the CO2 uptake by spring/summer leaf growth is about twice the leaf decay of last year in the same months, thus CO2 is dropping in these months…
You should run and hide, …. Ferdinand, ….. after posting such an asinine claim that you know was a falsehood created as a result of your deviousness, with said falsehood being substantiated by both the Mauna Loa Record and the corresponding Keeling Curve Graph.
I see there is 1700 petagrammes of carbon in the permafrost. That represents about 3400 petagrammes of biomass.
Question: How did it get there?
Answer: I think it grew there.
It was not deposited after being transported from hundreds of kilometers south of its present location by Neanderthals and Denisovans, large and powerful as they were.
Just why anyone thinks that permafrost is a good thing escapes me. That biomass didn’t draw CO2 from the atmosphere gently and constantly over 50 million years. Let’s see the carbon dating. Let’s see when it was completely unfrozen and supporting forests at that latitude.
The IPCC is in the business of selling a political con game to willing rent-seekers to solve a non-problem. What it basically boils down to is an epic consumer fraud pushed by people to lazy to solve real problems or get real jobs.
Just a note about abbreviations that might help others who share my ignorance of units of measure:
1 Pg = 10^15 grams, NOT 1015 grams as it appears in the article, which is probably a formatting error due to some restriction on how the article could be typed.
I had to look it up. I’m guessing that the IPCC used ppm of CO2 estimated prior to modern measuring methods to extract those gram figures from estimated ppm figures, relying on established writings on this subject by other authors.
Those Petagram numbers and arrows look pretty impressive and convincing, but I too wonder how trustworthy they are. I mean, I once did a pretty decent pencil drawing of a unicorn, but, as we all probably agree, unicorns do not exist.
And, yeah, there’s THIS:
https://chaamjamal.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-carbon-cycle-measurement-problem/
These results imply that the IPCC carbon cycle stochastic flow balance is not sensitive to the presence of the relatively low flows from human activity involving fossil fuel emissions and land use change. The large natural flows of the carbon cycle cannot be directly measured and they can only be indirectly inferred. These inferred values contain uncertainties much much larger than 2.3% of the mean. It is not possible to carry out a balance of the carbon cycle under these conditions. The balance presented by the IPCC by assuming certain flows to force an exact balance is justified by circular reasoning. Therefore, the IPCC carbon cycle balance does not contain useful information that may be used to ascertain the impact of fossil fuel emissions on the carbon cycle or on the climate system.
What Jamal forgot is that we have very good data of the yearly increase of CO2 in the atmosphere and reasonable good data of human CO2 emissions (maybe more underestimated than overestimated, due to human nature to avoid taces…).
Thus whatever the accuracy of any individual natural CO2 flux, its variability or even direction over the years, we have a good insight in the variability of the sum of all these natural in and out fluxes at the end of the year: -4.5 +/- 3 GtC/yr.
Human emissions are around 9 GtC/yr nowadays, thus larger than the net (negative!) result of all natural fluxes, including natural variability and measurement errors. In that way, the IPCC carbon cycle doesn’t need to give any useful information, as we know the net result of all carbon cycles together for every year in the past 60 years.
And at UN Environment:
UNEP
Search Results: IPCC has ~ 77 items on IPCC.
It’s about how IPPC is being used?
https://www.unenvironment.org/search/node?keys=IPCC
United Nations System
United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP)
History and organizations included in UNEP.
https://www.unsceb.org/content/unep
Whole situation should be looked at and not just part of the present situation?
UN Environment
UNEP
“Explore UN Environment Topics”
Select any topic.
https://www.unenvironment.org/explore-topics
The United Nations System
2017 Structural Chart
UN Principal Organs
Note Chart References: Page bottom, right side of the Chart
http://www.un.org/en/aboutun/structure/pdfs/UN%20System%20Chart_ENG_FINAL_MARCH13_2017.pdf
The carbon balance is unkown and unknowable. Dr. Gold was right.
Hydrocarbons are created deep in the earth and rise all around
the earth, but are not evenly distributed.They tend rise along
continedtal plate margins. This is the reason there is so much
oil in the Arabian states, and the reason the Saudis do not publish
estimates of the rate of refilling of their fields. Hydrocrbons
also rise where the shield is deep, as it is in the US midwest.
Grey Lensman @ur momisugly 2:34 am. The very rich soil these farmers farmed
is called Tera Preta. The British made a program about this crediting
the farmers for the rich soil, instead of doing any real research
into topsoil. It is not Biochar, as stated by the researchers featured
in the program.
Near the end of the program, Dr. William (Bill) Wood is shown
observing locals mining the top 10″ of the Tera Preta, which
the owner of the property said would grow back 20 years.
I knew that nothing humans had done to the soil ~500 years
ago effected the growth of new topsoil. I remembered that black
smokers, deep in the ocean, had been found to be powered by natural
gas. When the flow stopped, the culture died. From this, I developed
my hypothesis.
Upland top soil, soil not in a flood plain, in the presence of
adequate moisture, owes it’s richness to the amount of natural gas,
up welling through it. Aerobic microbes consume the hydrocarbons
using the hydrogen for energy, and oxidizing the carbon. The CO2
rises and confuses the people accounting carbon in the atmosphere.
The USEPA has in the past, listed upland soil as a sink for
atmospheric methane, 20 to 30 Tg. per year. The EPA’s logic was
that the hydrocarbon in the topsoil is absorbed from the atmosphere.
It is not. When methane hits the atmosphere, it rises. I hope that
Scott Pruitt’s EPA corrects this error.
The studies of rice paddies gives us a window into the process.
When rice paddies are dry, the microbes in the soil are in balance
with the amount of upwelling hydrocarbons, so CO2 is emitted.
When paddies are flooded, the microbes cannot keep up with the flow
of hydrocarbons, and some reaches the atmosphere. Some attempts at
explanation include saying that rice emits methane.
Perusing my hypothesis, I tested the subsoil on my property in East
Tennessee. My topsoil varies from ~1″ to ~12″ within 500ft. In my tests
of subsoil in Middle Tennessee, topsoil about 16″ deep and in Northeast
Kansas I had to dig through more than 1 meter of topsoil. The deeper
the topsoil, the more hydrocarbons indicated by my test instrument.
Studies I have read indicate that topsoil in the Ukraine is as much as
2 meters thick-lots of natural gas.
The foregoing means that the carbon balance is unknown as is any
idea how fast upwelling hydrocarbons will be regenerated as pressure
above is relieved. Hydrocarbons are a constantly renewing energy
resource.
“When you consider that the two supposedly most accurate estimates of world population (the US Census and the UN) differ by almost 6 million people (2011), you get a measure of the problem.”
(+/-3×10^6)/7×10^9 = +/-4×10^-4 = +/-0.04%
A precision of +/-0.04% is generally considered to be reasonably good. What other things in climatology do we know with such precision?
Oh, well….checked quickly the comment section, and can not believe that Nick Stokes not participating yet!
I thought he will be going all full BOM Karlization with this one… 🙂
cheers
The carbon balance is unkown and unknowable. Dr. Gold was right.
Hydrocarbons are created deep in the earth and rise all around
the earth, but are not evenly distributed.They tend rise along
continedtal plate margins. This is the reason there is so much
oil in the Arabian states, and the reason the Saudis do not publish
estimates of the rate of refilling of their fields. Hydrocrbons
also rise where the shield is deep, as it is in the US midwest.
Grey Lensman @ur momisugly 2:34 am. The very rich soil these farmers farmed
is called Tera Preta. The British made a program about this crediting
the farmers for the rich soil, instead of doing any real research
into topsoil. It is not Biochar, as stated by the researchers featured
in the program.
Near the end of the program, Dr. William (Bill) Wood is shown
observing locals mining the top 10″ of the Tera Preta, which
the owner of the property said would grow back 20 years.
I knew that nothing humans had done to the soil ~500 years ago
effected the growth of new topsoil. I remembered that black
smokers, deep in the ocean, had been found to be powered by natural
gas. When the flow stopped, the culture died. From this, I developed
my hypothesis.
Upland top soil, soil not in a flood plain, in the presence of
adequate moisture, owes it’s richness to the amount of natural gas,
up welling through it. Aerobic microbes consume the hydrocarbons
using the hydrogen for energy, and oxidizing the carbon. The CO2
rises and confuses the people accounting carbon in the atmosphere.
The USEPA has in the past, listed upland soil as a sink for
atmospheric methane, 20 to 30 Tg. per year. The EPA’s logic was
that the hydrocarbon in the topsoil is absorbed from the atmosphere.
It is not. When methane hits the atmosphere, it rises. I hope that
Scott Pruitt’s EPA corrects this error.
The studies of rice paddies gives us a window into the process.
When rice paddies are dry, the microbes in the soil are in balance
with the amount of upwelling hydrocarbons, so CO2 is emitted.
When paddies are flooded, the microbes cannot keep up with the flow
of hydrocarbons, and some reaches the atmosphere. Some attempts at
explanation include saying that rice emits methane.
Perusing my hypothesis, I tested the subsoil on my property in East
Tennessee. My topsoil varies from ~1″ to ~12″ within 500ft. In my tests
of subsoil in Middle Tennessee, topsoil about 16″ deep and in Northeast
Kansas I had to dig through more than 1 meter of topsoil. The deeper
the topsoil, the more hydrocarbons indicated by my test instrument.
Studies I have read indicate that topsoil in the Ukraine is as much as
2 meters thick-lots of natural gas.
The foregoing means that the carbon balance is unknown as is any
idea how fast upwelling hydrocarbons will be regenerated as pressure
above is relieved. Hydrocarbons are a constantly renewing energy
resource.
Jerry Henson – June 11, 2018 12:00 pm
Jerry H, ….. rice paddies do for a fact, emit methane (CH4) and here is why, to wit:
The fix was in at the IPPC from the beginning . No serious analysis of the benefits to a warming world
and no revisit of their conclusions despite initial climate models grossly overstating warming .
The question is who were the architects of this massive fraud ? Who gave the marching orders to
create the false narrative and promote it’s use to underpin the largest scam in history ?
Something this big needed a team of conmen and a plan .
Mods, what was wrong with my comment?
The global CO2 concentration depends on the tropical ocean temperature and the ENSO events can be noticed easily. The coefficeint of correlation is 0.8.
What would we do without you, good old jump from correlation to causation? So many comments would not even appear…
Heard this on the radio a while ago, it’s even made it into Wiki.
In 1954 General ‘Pug’ Ismay Churchill’s chief military assistant during WW2 related this anecdote to publisher Rupert Hart-Davis about Churchill rehearsing the speech he was to give in the House of Commons on 20 August 1940 after the Battle of Britain. When he came to the famous sentence, “Never in the history of mankind have so many owed so much to so few”, Ismay said “What about Jesus and his disciples?” “Good old Pug,” said Winston who immediately changed the wording to “Never in the field of human conflict …”.
The estimated CO2 generated by volcanoes is off by an order of magnitude.
Mods, Please email me with advice on the problem with my comment.
“Never Has So Much Been Made Out of So Little by So Many at So Great A Cost”
I like it.
Any objections if I get some T Shirts printed?
Cheers
Roger
Here is the Annual Mean Growth (yearly increase) from 1979 to 2016, to wit:
Maximum to Minimum yearly CO2 ppm data – 1979 thru 2016
Source: NOAA’s Mauna Loa Monthly Mean CO2 data base
@ur momisugly ftp://aftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/products/trends/co2/co2_mm_mlo.txt
CO2 “Max” ppm Fiscal Year – mid-May to mid-May
year mth “Max” _ yearly increase ____ mth “Min” ppm
1979 _ 6 _ 339.20 …. + …… __________ 9 … 333.93
1980 _ 5 _ 341.47 …. +2.27 _________ 10 … 336.05
1981 _ 5 _ 343.01 …. +1.54 __________ 9 … 336.92
1982 _ 5 _ 344.67 …. +1.66 __________ 9 … 338.32
1983 _ 5 _ 345.96 …. +1.29 El Niño __ 9 … 340.17
1984 _ 5 _ 347.55 …. +1.59 __________ 9 … 341.35
1985 _ 5 _ 348.92 …. +1.37 _________ 10 … 343.08
1986 _ 5 _ 350.53 …. +1.61 _________ 10 … 344.47
1987 _ 5 _ 352.14 …. +1.61 __________ 9 … 346.52
1988 _ 5 _ 354.18 …. +2.04 __________ 9 … 349.03
1989 _ 5 _ 355.89 …. +1.71 La Nina __ 9 … 350.02
1990 _ 5 _ 357.29 …. +1.40 __________ 9 … 351.28
1991 _ 5 _ 359.09 …. +1.80 __________ 9 … 352.30
1992 _ 5 _ 359.55 …. +0.46 Pinatubo _ 9 … 352.93
1993 _ 5 _ 360.19 …. +0.64 __________ 9 … 354.10
1994 _ 5 _ 361.68 …. +1.49 __________ 9 … 355.63
1995 _ 5 _ 363.77 …. +2.09 _________ 10 … 357.97
1996 _ 5 _ 365.16 …. +1.39 _________ 10 … 359.54
1997 _ 5 _ 366.69 …. +1.53 __________ 9 … 360.31
1998 _ 5 _ 369.49 …. +2.80 El Niño __ 9 … 364.01
1999 _ 4 _ 370.96 …. +1.47 La Nina ___ 9 … 364.94
2000 _ 4 _ 371.82 …. +0.86 La Nina ___ 9 … 366.91
2001 _ 5 _ 373.82 …. +2.00 __________ 9 … 368.16
2002 _ 5 _ 375.65 …. +1.83 _________ 10 … 370.51
2003 _ 5 _ 378.50 …. +2.85 _________ 10 … 373.10
2004 _ 5 _ 380.63 …. +2.13 __________ 9 … 374.11
2005 _ 5 _ 382.47 …. +1.84 __________ 9 … 376.66
2006 _ 5 _ 384.98 …. +2.51 __________ 9 … 378.92
2007 _ 5 _ 386.58 …. +1.60 __________ 9 … 380.90
2008 _ 5 _ 388.50 …. +1.92 La Nina _ 10 … 382.99
2009 _ 5 _ 390.19 …. +1.65 _________ 10 … 384.39
2010 _ 5 _ 393.04 …. +2.85 El Niño __ 9 … 386.83
2011 _ 5 _ 394.21 …. +1.17 La Nina _ 10 … 388.96
2012 _ 5 _ 396.78 …. +2.58 _________ 10 … 391.01
2013 _ 5 _ 399.76 …. +2.98 __________ 9 … 393.51
2014 _ 5 _ 401.88 …. +2.12 __________ 9 … 395.35
2015 _ 5 _ 403.94 …. +2.06 __________ 9 … 397.63
2016 _ 5 _ 407.70 …. +3.76 El Niño __ 9 … 401.03
The above data is proof-positive of an average 5 to 6 ppm decrease in CO2 that occurs between mid-May (5) and the end of September (9) of each calendar year …… and that there is an average 7 to 8 ppm increase in CO2 that occurs between the end of September (9) and mid-May (5) of the next calendar year.
The “Max” CO2 occurred at mid-May (5) of each year … with the exception of three (3) outliers, one (1) being in June 79’ and the other two (2) being in April 99’ and 2000.
The “Min” CO2 occurred at the very end of September (9) of each year … with the exception of eleven (11) outliers, all of which occurred within the first 7 days of October.
Tim Ball: Sticking it to The Man. Good work.
Earth’s carbon cycle contains 46,713 Gt (E15 gr) +/- 850 Gt (+/- 1.8%) of stores and reservoirs with a couple hundred fluxes Gt/y (+/- ??) flowing among those reservoirs. Mankind’s gross contribution over 260 years was 555 Gt or 1.2%. (IPCC AR5 Fig 6.1) Mankind’s net contribution, 240 Gt or 0.53%, (dry labbed by IPCC to make the numbers work) to this bubbling, churning caldron of carbon/carbon dioxide is 4 Gt/y +/- 96%. (IPCC AR5 Table 6.1) Seems relatively trivial to me. IPCC et. al. says natural variations can’t explain the increase in CO2. With these tiny percentages and high levels of uncertainty how would anybody even know? BTW fossil fuel between 1750 and 2011 represented 0.34% of the biospheric carbon cycle.
Nick,
It doensn’t matter how much carbon is stored in different reservoirs, as long as it isn’t exchanged with other reservoirs.
It doesn’t matter how much carbon is exchanged between different reservoirs, as long as the sum of all quantities exchanged over a year is zero.
It only matters what the balance is of all these movements at the end of the year.
The yearly balance is:
Increase in the atmosphere = human emissions + natural balance
4.5 +/- 3 GtC/yr = 9 – 4.5 +/- 3 GtC/yr
Nature nowadays is a net but variable sink for CO2, where it sinks about half human emissions with a temperature induced natural variability less than human emissions. Thus indeed nature can’t be the cause of the CO2 increase, it is an increasing sink for CO2…
A little late on the discussion, but this is one of the worst articles written by Dr. Ball I have read in years.
First let us start with where I take a huge exception:
This fits the Mauna Loa trend very nicely, but the measurements and instrumentation used there are patented and controlled by the Keeling family, first the father and now the son.
While C.D. Keeling was the first to measure CO2 with an IR beam (NDIR), and smart enough to make himself an extremely accurate (gravimetric) device to calibrate any CO2 measuring device with extreme accurate calibration mixtures.
The Scripps institute where Keeling worked later provided all calibration mixtures for all devices worldwide. Since 1995, calibration and intercalibration of CO2 mixtures and measurements worldwide are done by the central lab of the WMO.
Ralph Keeling works at Scripps and has no infuence at all at the calibration work of the WMO, neither on the measurements at Mauna Loa, which are done by NOAA under Pieter Tans.
As Scripps lost its control position, they still take their own (flask) samples at Mauna Loa and still have their own calibration mixtures, independent of NOAA. Both Scripps and NOAA measurements are within +/- 0.2 ppmv for the same moment of sampling. If NOAA should manipulate the data, I am pretty sure Scripps/Keeling would get them…
Beyond that, there are about 70 “background” stations, managed by different organisations of different countries, measuring CO2 on as far as possible uncontaminated places, from the South Pole to near the North Pole (Barrow), which all show, besides seasonal changes, which are more explicit in the NH, the same trend: up at about half the rate of the yearly human injection and a lag of the SH, which points to the main source of the increase in the NH, where 90% of human emissions occurs.
Thus Dr. Ball, if you want to accuse somebody of manipulation, first have your facts right.
Then:
Where is the reflection of CO2 increase due to the dramatic ocean warming and temperature increase caused by El Nino?
There is, if you look at the yearly rate of increase at Mauna Loa:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/dco2_em6.jpg
The 1998 and 2015 El Niño’s give a clear increase in yearly CO2 increase in the atmosphere. The 1992 Pinatubo explosion shows a huge dip in CO2 increase.
The reason, in part the ocean temperature in the tropics, but the dominant factor is (tropical) vegetation due to (too) high temperatures and drying out of the Amazon as the rain patterns change with an El Niño and increased photosynthesis after the Pinatubo injection of light scattering aerosols into the stratosphere:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/temp_dco2_d13C_mlo.jpg
It is pretty clear that changes in temperature rate of change lead changes in CO2 rate of change with about 6 months. The interesting point is that the δ13C (that is the ratio between 13CO2 and 12CO2) rate of change changes in opposite direction. That is the case if the increase/decrease in CO2 rate of change is caused by decaying/growing vegetation. If the CO2 rate of change was caused by warming/cooling oceans, then the CO2 and δ13C rate of change changes would parallel each other.
Thus the main influence of (ocean) temperature (in the tropics) on the CO2 increase rate is by reduced CO2 uptake by the (Amazon) forest, not from warming oceans.
Again Dr. Ball, a little more research would have shown that you were wrong in your accusation.
It is getting late here, more comment tomorrow…
Ferdinand,
Good to hear from you again, I hope you are well. Thank you for correcting many of the misunderstandings and errors on this thread. However, as you know, I do not agree with your δ13C interpretation of this plot:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/temp_dco2_d13C_mlo.jpg
I believe that you are confusing rate of change with direction of change. We know that if the δ13C of the atmosphere is, say, -8 per mil and we add CO2 with a δ13C of, say, -26 per mil, the δ13C of the atmospheric CO2 will be reduced. It matters not how fast we do this; if the incremental CO2 has a lower δ13C than the atmospheric CO2, it will reduce the atmospheric δ13C. Similarly, if we remove CO2 from the atmosphere then the opposite occurs (assuming that the CO2 that has been removed has a lower δ13C than the atmosphere). This is exactly what we see each year as we go through the annual cycle, which reflects the direction of change in CO2 (increasing or decreasing CO2 level) rather than rate of change.
If, instead of plotting the derivative values, you plot the 12 month average values of atmospheric CO2 and its δ13C content, you will see that around 1999 the δ13C of the atmospheric CO2 actually increases while the level of CO2 in the atmosphere is also increasing, albeit at a lower rate due to La Niña. There is no net reduction in atmospheric CO2 so this is not equivalent to the May-September phase of the annual cycle.
The rate of change of δ13C primarily reflects changes in the δ13C content of the incremental CO2 above and below the long term average of -13 per mil.
Jim,
Thanks, had a few (minor) repairs in the past months, but again going strong (for my age…).
The problem with using straight data and worse 12 month moving averages is that the bulk of the CO2 and δ13C changes is from human emissions with low δ13C. If you use monthly data one can see the seasonal swings which too are (very) large, but fortunately opposite for ocean and vegetation releases/uptake, still globally + and – 5 ppmv around the trend and an opposite change in δ13C over the seasons. That proves that (NH) vegetation wins the contest of the seasonal changes, not the oceans:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/seasonal_CO2_d13C_MLO_BRW.jpg
If you want to see the much smaller changes due to natural fluctuations, mainly caused by temperature fluctuations, one need to remove both the trend caused by human emissions and the seasonal swings, as the natural fluctuations are not more than +/- 1.5 ppmv on a trend of 80 ppmv over the past 60 years. Here enlarged for the Pinatubo – 1998 El Niño period:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/wft_trends_rss_1985-2000.jpg
The advantage of taking the derivatives is that the small but fast changes are highlighted, while the huge but slower trends largely are removed. The general shape for a more or less sinusoid remains about the same, only shifted back som 90 degrees. The disadvantage is that you have to be careful in interpretation of what happens in the real data…
In this case it is clear that the fast, small changes in CO2 rate of change are caused by fast changes in temperature with a lag of ~6 months and that the CO2 changes are mainly caused by vegetation. On the long term trend, the net result of the fast temperature changes is near zero, even negative as higher temperatures and more CO2 over longer term increase the net uptake by vegetation.
The 1999 La Niña indeed shows a lot of extra CO2 uptake after the slowdown during the 1998 El Niño. That is by the recovery of mainly the Amazon forest. As CO2 uptake uses more 12CO2, that even outperformed the δ13C drop by human emissions…
Ferdinand,
Thanks for your response. I am glad to hear that you are doing OK (for your age!) – I think that it is a problem for many of us here.
I think your key point is in your final paragraph and I shall look at this more closely when I have time- I am away for a few days, so it may be into the middle of next week before I respond.
Ferdinand Engelbeen – June 14, 2018 10:31 am
Ferdinand, what the ell does the Amazon forest have to do with the abnormally cool ocean water (La Nina) in the equatorial Pacific not outgassing as much CO2 like warmer waters would do?
Ferdi, how bout the 2000 La Nina, ……according to your claim, it shows TWICE (2 times) as much “extra CO2 uptake” as the 1999 La Nina. Was the Amazon forest doing a “double” recovery in 2000?
1996 _ 5 _ 365.16 …. +1.39 _________ 10 … 359.54
1997 _ 5 _ 366.69 …. +1.53 __________ 9 … 360.31
1998 _ 5 _ 369.49 …. +2.80 El Niño __ 9 … 364.01
1999 _ 4 _ 370.96 …. +1.47 La Nina ___ 9 … 364.94
2000 _ 4 _ 371.82 …. +0.86 La Nina ___ 9 … 366.91
2001 _ 5 _ 373.82 …. +2.00 __________ 9 … 368.16
El Nino -appearance of unusually warm, nutrient-poor water
La Nina – cooling of the water in the equatorial Pacific
Samuel,
The 1999 La Niña didn’t end in 1999, 2000 was just part of it…
During an El Niño, a large part of the Amazon is getting dryer as rain patterns move elsewhere. That makes that less CO2 is taken away by the rainforest, while the “normal” CO2 quantities are released from decaying debris.
During a La Niña, the Amazon forest recovers from that by growing faster. That was followed by satellites in the Amazon bassin. Here a link for the 1998 El Niño:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/1999GL011113
Here for the recent one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep33130
Ferdinand Engelbeen – June 15, 2018 12:41 pm
Ferdinand, ……. don’t be talking “trash” to me.
Iffen the Amazon rainforest is(was) getting dryer ….. then the “normal” CO2 quantities would not have been released from decaying debris ….. simply because the aforesaid “dry conditions” severely hampers or retards the microbial decay of dead biomass.
Get learned, Ferdinand, …… dry conditions prevent decay of biomass. To wit:
Pemmican, which was invented by the native peoples of North America, …. can be packed into rawhide bags or other containers for storage and then it can be stored for a maximum of 10 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
Iffen you get hungry, just put 2 or 3 tablespoons of pemmican in a cup of hot water, drink it down, and you are good to go.
Samuel,
You can’t compare pemmican with the debris at the bottom of a rain forest… Totally different materials to dry out and besides that: forest fires which release a lot of CO2 too…
Shur nuff, Ferdinand, ……. and all those zillions of animals a huffing n’ a puffing n’ a breathing fast n’ furiously as they try to escape those raging forest fires …… exhale far more CO2 than those fires release.
Ferdinand, …. like Einstein supposedly said, …… it only takes one (1) item of actual, factual evidence to prove your touted scientific claims wrong, …… and I have already given you 7 or 8 said proofs that you simply refused to acknowledge …… and usually responded with childish “tripe n’ piffle” comments, …… like above with your “forest fires” CYA.
Ferdinand Engelbeen – June 12, 2018 3:13 pm
Ferdinand, you are still touting your “junk science” because you have furthered you career by doing so and/or you really don’t know any better and you have no interest in rectifying your problem.
Ferdinand, …. the bi-yearly change in the ratio between atmospheric 13CO2 and 12CO2 is a seasonal thingy, exactly as I have been telling you ……. and which explicitly defined in the following abstract, to wit:
Samuel,
Different plants show different selectivity in 12CO2 vs. 13CO2 uptake. C3 cycle plants are far more selective than C4 or CAM plants. In all cases, CO2 uptake by all plants in the world removes relative more 12CO2 than 13CO2. The net change in ratio inside the plant is between -14 per mil to -40 per mil and beyond, while the atmosphere was -6.4 per mil pre-industrial and dropping fast to currently below -8 per mil δ13C. The opposite happens when plant rests decay and 12CO2-rich / 13CO2-poor CO2 is released.
The net result is that if CO2 drops in the atmosphere, 13CO2 goes up and reverse, if vegetation is involved in the CO2 movements.
On the other side, oceans have a δ13C level of zero (deep oceans) to +5 per mil. Even taking into account that there is a shift in δ13C when CO2 is released from or absorbed by the sea surface, that gives an increase in δ13C in the atmosphere when CO2 is released from the oceans and a decrease in δ13C when CO2 is absorbed by the oceans.
Thus if you see opposite movements of CO2 and δ13C, then always plants (or fossil plants like coal) are dominant. If you see parallel movements of CO2 and δ13C, the oceans are the dominant driver…
Ferdie, read this again, to wit:
“The most positive POM d13C values (-27%) occurred during winter, when heterotrophic bacteria and nanoflagellates peaked in abundance; the isotopically lighter autotrophic phytoplankton shifted the POM d13C to -29% in summer. “
Samuel,
The point is not the difference between -27 per mil and -29 per mil δ13C, the point is that both decrease the δ13C in the atmosphere which is just below -8 per mil nowadays when releasing CO2 at the moment they decay and increase δ13C in the atmosphere when absorbing CO2 when they grow. For both types of POM that gives opposite CO2 and δ13C changes.
What is measured is that for each hemisphere CO2 decreases from May on to August-September, thus plant uptake is larger than plant decay. In the other months, the opposite happenes. In all cases CO2 changes and δ13C changes go opposite of each other. Thus no matter the types of (land or sea) plants involved, fall-winter-spring increase and spring-summer-fall decrease of CO2 levels is caused by vegetation, not the oceans.
June 16, 2018 1:26 pm
Ferdinand, …… you are intentionally stuck on a “learning disabled mindset” because the Northern Hemisphere’s “woody” trees, shrubs and vines biomass cannot possibly be emitting more CO2 back into the atmospheric each and every fall-wintertime than it absorbs each and every spring-summer, …….. especially given the fact that the trees, shrubs and vines are sequestering 50% to 60+% of that absorbed CO2 in increased body mass, or “new growth” ….. of their root system, ….. their trunk & limb diameter, ….. their trunk & limb length …… and hundreds of new limbs/branches. The remaining 40-% of absorbed CO2 is used to complete the leaf or canopy growth.
NOTE: most every bit of the “new growth” of “limbs & leaves” in early springtime is the result of the past-summertime’s “absorption of atmospheric CO2” that was stored in the root system as “sugars”.
Ferdinand, …… iffen the leaves is the only dead biomass that decomposes, …. then only 40+-% of the absorbed CO2 is emitted back into the atmosphere …… and the remaining 60+-% of the absorbed CO2 is still sequestered in the living biomass.
Thus, Ferdinand, you can continue childishly touting your forest fires, your flooding, your drouths, your Flying Spaghetti Monsters, your δ13C disappearing act and/or your snow decks in Alaska …… but none of them discredits the above stated scientific facts about the natural world that you live in/on.
The IPCC carbon cycle flow balance is a product of circular reasoning. Here is the proof of that.
https://chaamjamal.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-carbon-cycle-measurement-problem/
Jamal,
That is only proof if the overall balance by the IPCC was based on the estimates of the individual natural fluxes. That is not at all the case.
The overall balance is the difference between what is known as human emissions en what is measured as increase in the atmosphere. The difference between these two is the overall balance of all natural in and out fluxes together. The only errors involved are the errors in human CO2 emissions inventories and the measurement errors of CO2 in the atmosphere.
The first has a combined SD of less than 1.4 on a height of 8.9 GtC/y.
The second has a SD of 0.2 on a height of 4.5 GtC/y.
That means that for the overall balance of all together some 400 GtC as CO2 going in and out the atmosphere within a year, the error is less than roughly 2 GtC/y or 0.5%. By far more than accurate enough…
Dr. Ball:
You can pick any segment of the Carbon Cycle they show in Figure 1 (Their Figure 6-1, Fifth Assessment Report) and none of it is based on actual measures, that is real data
While terrestrial reservoirs are difficult to estimate, C content of the oceans is monitored for over 100 years, first sporadically, nowadays at several fixed locations and frequent ship surveys. From that we have a reasonable estimate of how much C in form of CO2-bi-carbonates is present in the (deep) oceans and how much it increased in the near surface layer over the past decades: about 10% of the change in the atmosphere.
Ocean-atmosphere and terrestrial-atmosphere exchanges are estimated on the base of O2 and δ13C changes, as these are different for oceans and vegetation:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf
Again Dr. Ball, with a little more research you could have known that several estimates of the carbon cycle made by the IPCC are extrapolated from or based on real, measured, data.