New electric car–the ‘JATO’

Apparently, the marketing arm of this company has never heard of the Darwin awards myth about JATO units and automobiles.

Guest essay by John Hardy

The best-selling EV worldwide has been the Nissan Leaf. In Q1 2018 it was overtaken by a model made in China by BAIC, a domestic Chinese company. There were three other domestic Chinese manufacturers in the top 10. Forget CO2 and all that greenwash: the Chinese mean to eat the Western auto industry for breakfast.


Image copyright JATO Dynamics. Used by permission.

Yes the BAIC EC is small, range is limited, at $22k it could be cheaper (although if you figure in lifetime fuel costs it is competitive with the cheapest cars on the US market). It won’t haul a ton of logs up a muddy track or take 6 people from LA to NY without recharging or whatever is today’s excuse for dismissing EVs.

EVs are getting better all the time and if the Western auto industry waits until the competition are shipping big volumes of cheap 300 mile range cars the game will already be over. As a start they need to put serious money into battery gigafactories (The Chinese are running off with that football too).

Oh and for our US friends, BAIC have parked their tanks on your lawn. They are setting up a plant in Mexico.

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May 27, 2018 4:10 pm

“…the Chinese mean to eat the Western auto industry for breakfast.” Oooh, I’m shaking in my boots! Kip, where’s that graphic you post on ALL EV sales relative to the Ford F-150? And as far as I can tell, even though EV sales are climbing, they’re only falling behind less rapidly. i.e., the growth in annual sales of all vehicles, in absolute numbers, is greater than total EV sales. If I’m wrong on either of those counts, I’m sure someone will let me know.

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 27, 2018 4:15 pm

“Yes the BAIC EC is small, range is limited, at $22k it[‘s damned expensive if you compute how much you pay per hour of available driving time]. It won’t haul a ton of logs up a muddy track or take 6 people from LA to NY without recharging [for hours on end]…” Why does this even rate a press release? Sort of like advertising, out pile of cow manure stinks slightly less than our competitor’s pile of cow manure, buy all you can now and avoid the rush! when I have absolutely no use for cow manure, no garden to get started, don’t even want to grow grass!

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 27, 2018 4:26 pm

“EVs are getting better all the time and if the Western auto industry waits until the competition are shipping big volumes of cheap 300 mile range cars the game will already be over.” So the watermelons are going all-in with the philosophy, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Who needs to hire a “Minister for … Propaganda” when our Lame Stream Media is already carrying water for them for free?

Bryan A
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 27, 2018 5:49 pm

The BAIC EC is available as the EC180 with 30kW/140Nm electric motor, and an NEDC range of 156km, or as the EC200 with a 36kW/140Nm motor, and a range of 162km. Those are ranges of 96 and 100 miles respectively so to travel any distance you would be driving for 1.5 hours then charging for 8 to drive for another 1.5 hours then recharging overnight … lather, rinse, repeat.

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 27, 2018 8:04 pm

Anthony: you should require authors to do some fact checking. There were more than 20,000 Chevrolet Bolts sold in 2017.

John Hardy
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 28, 2018 12:36 am

Mohatdebos – the data presented is Q1 2018, not the whole of 2017

Berényi Péter
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 28, 2018 5:55 am

@John Hardy – That’s so. However 2018 Q1 car sales in the EU, Russia, USA, Japan, Brazil, India &. China amounted to 17,455,800. The 25,630 BAIC EC sold is 0.15% of it. No one is eating the auto industry for breakfast, yet.

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 27, 2018 8:15 pm

Not all the Western auto industry is based in North America. And the North American auto industry only survived because of government bailouts without which there would not now be an F150.
Not many F150s are sold in Europe where governments [wisely or foolishly ?] have decided to get rid of small diesels.
Polluted Asian cities will welcome EVs [though electric motorcycles would make more sense].
Perhaps it is just a case of shifting evil emissions from the centres of cities to somewhere else but in the meantime manufacturers of EVs will be rolling in cash [maybe subsidy cash but cash just the same].

Mike Wryley
Reply to  GregK
May 27, 2018 8:26 pm

And the bailout for Ford was ?

John Hardy
Reply to  GregK
May 28, 2018 12:40 am

Mike Wryley “Ford applied for and received $5.9 billion [loan] in June 2009 (the same month GM filed for bankruptcy) to help pay for investments in more fuel-efficient engines, hybrids and electric cars and also to convert two truck plants to production of cars.”

Stephen Richards
Reply to  GregK
May 28, 2018 1:04 am

electric motorbikes are restricted by the room a decent battery needs to power them

Reply to  GregK
May 28, 2018 8:09 am

Ford got a loan not a bail out of special consideration in bankruptcy court. Ford still must pay the loan back, but not until something like 2022.

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 28, 2018 12:57 am

This is the perfect car to give to anyone who lives just outside of driving range from whom you do not want a visit.

Reply to  Geoff
May 28, 2018 6:05 am

That is sheer brilliance right there.

Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
May 28, 2018 2:00 am

The Japanese were supposed to have already done that yet look at the cars the west produces today, and they are damn fine cars too, much better than japanese ones. Alfa, Ford, BMW, VW. All much better.

May 27, 2018 4:12 pm

They are setting up a plant in Mexico.

Aw. Just in time for President Trump’s 25% duty on imported automobiles. link

May 27, 2018 4:18 pm

LOL An electric car in the largest captive market in the world takes “leadership”. There’s more to selling a car than price. They’ll have all the same problems of selling into the US market as current EVs. Dismissing the shortcomings of currently available EVs shows the author of this article doesn’t understand the issues.

Russell Harris
May 27, 2018 4:19 pm

I’ll bet you that little car would just suck trying to make a 3% grade uphill in the Minnesota winter…

Michael 2
Reply to  Russell Harris
May 27, 2018 8:20 pm

IS there a 3 percent grade in Minnesota? Maybe up around Duluth. The more serious problem is -40 (more or less) winter temperatures. Battery no like.

Reply to  Russell Harris
May 27, 2018 8:57 pm

but it’s got 30 killerwatts! that’s 40.230663 horsepowers!
for comparison, a 2018 golf has 292 horsepower

Reply to  Russell Harris
May 28, 2018 7:32 am

The Minnesota River Valley, entering and exiting it, has 3% grades.

May 27, 2018 4:25 pm

If the electric car industry plans to “eat the Western auto industry for breakfast” they’re gonna need a much bigger spoon. Here are last year’s sales:comment image

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 4:30 pm

+1 Willis. But why use a spoon – just stick a fork in it, its done.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 4:48 pm

Isn’t there a middle ground here?
If urbanites wan’t to run around their little cities in their electric city cars, then let them. They don’t work beyond city boundaries, so let the rural folk run what they brung.
My beef is much the same as Forrests’ comment below, I just don’t want to pay for virtue signalling urbanites imposing their values on the rest of the country, and making the rest of the country pay for their luxuries.
So city air is shitty. If they don’t like it, move to the country and spread the wealth. But they are too greedy and want everyone else to pay for their clean air.
There is not one meaningful operational power station located within the London area (generally considered within the M25 motorway that encircles it. All the power needs for London are met by facilities in rural areas. Yet air quality standards across the country are generally measured relative to our cities, principally, London, and everyone pays for London’s problem in so many ways.

Ann Banisher
Reply to  HotScot
May 27, 2018 6:21 pm

Here’s a middle ground story.
In San Diego, around the beach area it is very crowded to park much less to move around in a car. So entrepreneurial types put electric scooters all over the beach area. Just swipe a card and go … no need need to drop off, just leave them where your at when you are done.
That lasted until people started to use them. Then somebody gave someone a boo boo while operating one so the City put an emergency moratorium on them.
Ideas are great … until they get implemented.

Reply to  HotScot
May 27, 2018 6:37 pm

If you lived in a European city you are probably better getting around on public transport most of the time. Some American cities are the same, although Eurpopean public transport is probably better. If I lived in a city, I would want a car that can get me out of it from time to time, not an electric car!

Pop Piasa
Reply to  HotScot
May 27, 2018 7:15 pm

James, if you are as ancient as myself you can remember that the US auto industry bought up most of the smaller urban mass transportation systems in America during the 50’s and 60’s with the intent of shutting them down and making personal transportation a necessity. The automobile industry then considered convenient mass transportation in something other than a vehicle they produced to be an impediment to their growth.

Steve Case
Reply to  HotScot
May 27, 2018 11:58 pm

Pop Piasa May 27, 2018 at 7:15 pm
James, if you are as ancient as myself you can remember that the US auto industry bought up most of the smaller urban mass transportation systems in America during the 50’s and 60’s with the intent of shutting them down and making personal transportation a necessity. The automobile industry then considered convenient mass transportation in something other than a vehicle they produced to be an impediment to their growth.

Urban mass transportation died because no one likes waiting for a bus in the snow with shopping bag full of groceries. This “…the US auto industry bought up most of the smaller urban mass transportation systems in America blah … blah … blah … blah” is a myth pushed by leftist propaganda artists.
Beware of carefully worded non-sense.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Great chart. I doubt EVs are doing much better in Oz. “April 2017 new vehicle sales figures have been released, showing an increasing dominance in ute sales, and a list of pretty clear winners and losers. It’s interesting to note here that although overall sales of new vehicles in Australia have slowed 2.8% for the year and 5.1% for the month, SUV and 4X4 sales are bucking the trend with growth. 4X4 ute sales have jumped 5.2% so far this year, and SUV sales are up 1.7%.“.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
May 27, 2018 6:29 pm

Mike…In 2017, a record 1,189,116 new cars were sold in Australia, with just 1123 electric cars accounting for a tiny 0.09 percent of the market share.
That was a slight improvement over 2016, when electrically chargeable vehicles accounted for just 0.06 percent of the market, or just 765 electric vehicles out of a then-record 1,178,133 new car sales.
However, finding the exact number of electric vehicles sold in Australia is difficult, with Tesla’s policy of not reporting sales leaving a large void in any ledger….Tesla’s recall notice showed a fix needed to be applied to 469 Model X SUVs, and 324 Model S sedans….The 793 cars were all built between February and October 2016. Averaged out across a full 12 months and it can be estimated Tesla sells around 1060 cars a year…The 793 cars were all built between February and October 2016. Averaged out across a full 12 months and it can be estimated Tesla sells around 1060 cars a year. …If you include the estimated Tesla sales in calculations, the market share of electric vehicles sold in Australia increases to 0.18 percent….According to, a data collation site that tracks global EV and PHEV sales, plug-in electric vehicles account for 1.28 percent of global new car sales….China and Norway provide significant incentives for consumers to purchase a new electric vehicle, which has helped guide buyer demand….
From WhichCar. 20 Mar 2018.
No Subsidy…No Sale…It is as simple as that.

Samuel C Cogar
Reply to  Mike Jonas
May 28, 2018 4:39 am

Great chart. I doubt EVs are doing much better in Oz.
With the recent “electrical grid” problems being suffered by parts of Oz, ….. it would surely cause some people to question the “sanity” of purchasing an EV.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 6:20 pm

A battery breakthrough would change things dramatically. Folks are working hard on that. link link
On the other hand … Don Lancaster made the observation (for which I cannot find the link) that, if people have been working hard on something for a long time, we should not expect a breakthrough. For sure we have been making incremental progress in battery technology but I think we need a breakthrough. There’s a difference.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  commieBob
May 27, 2018 7:29 pm

Yes, what is required is a fresh paradigm on a higher level. If only Nikola Tesla had not been stifled, batteries would be unnecessary.

Reply to  commieBob
May 27, 2018 10:18 pm

There will be a banner year come along sometime. That is the year in which a truly practical high capacity battery is developed, and the fusion power plants to charge them. Any time now!
I wonder if my local bookie will take a bet for my (not yet existing) great-great-grandchildren…

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 8:08 pm

Current sales tells you nothing about trends and strategies.
If you want to take on market leaders (US automakers) you almost have no choice except to change the playing field. And that means going electric. Ask Musk. you cant lead by following.
Next, you present US autosales. Guess you have never met with Chinese automakers to assess their
forward going plans.? You should it is illuminating.
One big difference is annual miles driven. USA is the leader. This means of course that the US will probably be the last to transition to Electric, but transition it will.
A nice play will happen in spare parts for old gas cars.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
May 27, 2018 10:26 pm

My Mom: “If your friends all jump off of a cliff, are you going to follow them?”
Me (at about 12 years of age): “Why not?”
My Mom: Gibbs slap. She had the patent on that long before the TV show. Also drove an International Harvester…
Me (at my current age, feeling the lump on the back of the head that is still there): “No, I don’t think I’ll follow that idiot Musk over the cliff.”

Reply to  Writing Observer
May 30, 2018 8:23 pm

“If your friends all jump off of a cliff, are you going to follow them?”

Me: Is that the dumbest question you will ask today?

People don’t just wake up to see people jumping off.

Ian W
Reply to  Steven Mosher
May 28, 2018 1:18 am

Steven, a major problem with EVs is that you cannot put a couple of spare jerry cans of electricity in the back, or stored in your garage. Anyone who has lived through severe weather or a natural disaster will tell you that the first thing to go down is electricity. Now what do you do when you need to evacuate – or, from a government point of view need an entire population to evacuate. This is normally a drive of more than 300 miles and the power has gone out: the interstates will be littered with bricked EVs and they cannot be moved by sharing a jerry can of fuel, they’ll need to be recovered to somewhere that has power, and if the battery protection worked they might recover in 8 hour’s time. EVs are toys, possibly OK as a second car in urban areas. But when the chips are down they are not to be relied upon.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
May 28, 2018 6:46 am

Plans vs. reality….where else have we read about that?

John Hardy
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 27, 2018 11:32 pm

Willis, everyone – the issue isn’t last year, this year or next year. Head out of sand time . Nuts to CO2 – does the western auto industry want to survive or not?

Ian W
Reply to  John Hardy
May 28, 2018 3:01 am

Without the mantra that CO2 emissions are bad, nobody would be considering EVs. As 80% of the base load power to charge EV’s will come from fossil fueled power stations, EVs are remotely polluting vehicles and should not be considered as saving any emissions; but then the market is for virtue signalling customers and not intended to actually reduce emissions or environmental impact.

Reply to  Ian W
May 30, 2018 8:35 pm

“Without the mantra that CO2 emissions are bad, nobody would be considering EVs.”

A ridiculous claim!

People complain about fine particulates, nitrogen oxydes, carbon monoxyde… all the time on mainstream media.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 28, 2018 2:55 am

The guest essay is an example of why the Eastern Bloc has lost its competition with the West. Also in the GDR, the USSR, other Eastern Bloc countries and also in China (there until today) was talked of annual dizzying growth rates of the production, the living standard and the loyalty of the population to its own regime. Until the acid test came with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Eastern Bloc regimes collapsed like card houses (with the exception of China, which acted with military force against its own people, delaying but not abolishing the end of the regime for decades). These numbers are all faked because they do not reflect the real world again. Of course, the global sales of EVs in the first quarter of 2018 again fell against the total sales of ICE cars. In the meantime, many producers of EVs are losing faith in a better future. Not for nothing Elon Musk does not increase the production and does not even start with some models. A small bankruptcy is better than a big one. Even though China now wants to increase the production and sales of EVs with deadlines, this sale will quickly reach its limits, of course: lack of energy and lack of acceptance among buyers. China continues to do so and produces electricity from coal. That is then super environmentally friendly. Instead of ICE Cars Coal Power Plants pollutes the air of Beijing. So the mouthguard will be a big hit in China for a long time. Which reminds me a bit of homemade British gas masks in the First World War.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 28, 2018 3:14 am

Never underestimate an exponential growth curve

Reply to  Jan Kjetil Andersen
May 28, 2018 4:20 am

Nice hockey stick.

May 27, 2018 4:30 pm

As a start they need to put serious money into battery gigafactories (The Chinese are running off with that football too).
Is there an unlimited supply of the raw materials necessary to build these electric car batteries? If not, isn’t the extraction of these limited earth materials flying in the face of the sustainability credo to meet “the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs?”
And how many future generations (or how far into the future) have the elites calculated as to what our allocated (rationed) amount of natural resources should use should be?

Reply to  kramer
May 27, 2018 4:34 pm

kramer….you’ve given a very reasonable ‘sciency’ answer; however, the entire Global Warming issue is not about science or CO2 or especially the environment.

Reply to  kokoda
May 27, 2018 4:50 pm

kokoda, I 100% agree with you that the AGW issue isn’t really about preventing global warming.
IMO, in a nutshell, I view it (AGW prevention) as a tool to implement political policies that left-wingers and mega-rich families like.

May 27, 2018 4:33 pm

Hey guys
I hate to remind you that the Japanese were scorned when they imported their cheap, reliable, simple, well equipped, fuel efficient cars into US and European markets in the 60’s and 70’s.
Junk evidently, until compared to our home grown competition. And in the UK that was British Leyland junk, which was junk.
However, what we must remember is that German, Japanese, American, and even British car manufacturers have two huge markets in China and India.
This isn’t a one sided game. Indeed, this is the motivation for companies, and countries to engage in free trade and commercial competition. It’s the very thing Americans relish and you guys are very good at it.
Frankly, bring it on. It can only improve the game, and the support for free trade.
And this is what Trump is telling the world. Compete or die.

Alan Tomalty
Reply to  HotScot
May 27, 2018 4:50 pm

Dont ever think that any western company has any chance to effectively compete in a totalitarian system like China? Some are; in the beginning but eventually the Chinese government will find a 1000 excuses to crowd to out of their market. Since there is no real legal system( as we like to think that a legal system should be) in China western companies in the long run have no chance to compete in the Chinese market. They have enough trouble trying to compete in the Japanese market.

Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 27, 2018 4:59 pm

Great comment. What you seem to be saying is that there’s no hope, so we shouldn’t bother competing.
Let’s just roll over now.
Personally, I think this is the greatest peacetime opportunity the planet has had to shake us from our stagnating western economies and get a move on to creating growth once more.
What you also forget is that China has converted from a totalitarian system to a hybrid totalitarian/Capitalist system to generate wealth for their country. Indeed, perceptibly, other than in name alone, they have almost abandoned communism altogether.
Russia is the same, they just can’t make cars.

Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 27, 2018 5:09 pm

china is gearing up to go all electric….
..that’s harder to do where there’s a gas station on every corner already

Alan Tomalty
Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 27, 2018 5:51 pm

You underestimate the drive and ultimate plan of the Chinese Communist Party(CCP). It realizes that ultimately it cant survive if there are western democracies always held up as an example of freedom. Thus the CCP has as its goal the ultimate destruction and takeover of the rest of the world. The CCP still owns 2/3 of the Chinese economy and that ratio will probably remain the same for the foreseeable future. Along with that every Chinese CEO of any company with any strategic importance has to follow any directive of the CCP and I mean ANY directive. On top of that at any time any company official (not to mention any private citizen ) can be arbitrarily and summarily arrested and charged with any crime with the conviction rate of 99.98% . Estimates of human organ availability in China compared to the West gives an indication that there are 25 forced organ surgeries every day on political prisoners in China with many of those being carried out on corpses who were executed by the CCP. This is another type of holocaust like in Hitler’s regime. The Chinese are investing in over a 100 countries in the world including building coal plants everywhere. They are now No.5 in filing patents with the European Union. This article shows they are the leading electric car seller in the world. You cannot invest in China without a partner who then steals all your technology. China has claimed the complete South China Sea as its backyard, enforceable by force. It asserts the right to invade Taiwan at any time. It refuses to recognize the World Court and always breaks the rules of any organization it joins. China leads the world in counterfeit goods and the CCP does nothing to stop this. Using the court system in China to address legal or financial concerns is an exercize in futility. The CCP is a direct threat to your freedom. To think that we actually trade with that regime boggles the mind.

R. Shearer
Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 27, 2018 6:38 pm

Yes, the playing field is not level, but there are plenty of U.S. companies doing well in China.

R. Shearer
Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 27, 2018 7:04 pm

Good comments Alan T.
Despite their plans, they have their issues as well. Air and water pollution are immediate problems; however, their demographics are so far out of whack that they’re considering elimination of the 2 child limit, perhaps as soon as the end of this year. India doesn’t have that problem at the moment.
About two thirds of China is still basically in the third world. Their legal system is as you say not real and neither is trust. Planned economies don’t work well.

Nigel S
Reply to  Alan Tomalty
May 28, 2018 1:39 am

Alan T: I rember when the greatest threat was CCCP and my father was in charge of signals in the British sector in case the Russians decided to fuel up and come across the Hanoverian Plain. USSR contained the seeds of its own collapse. A system run by one man (emperor for life) by cronyism and terror has inherent issues, RS has outlined some of them. Massive debt (for a developing country) is another.

May 27, 2018 4:35 pm

If they can make them cheaper, the sales in crowded Asian cities could soar.
Maybe exploding a fuel, that wastes a lot of energy as heat is not the most efficient way power a car.

Loren Wilson
Reply to  Jeff
May 27, 2018 5:34 pm

So where is your electricity going to come from? Right now, it’s coal exploding in a boiler the size of a small aparment building, or methane exploding in a gas turbine, or water flowing down a penstock and through a turbine, or atoms fissioning. The difference is that it isn’t in your back yard. Electric cars are only slightly more efficient than gasoline-powered cars when you look at the entire cycle of energy production.

Roger Knights
Reply to  Jeff
May 27, 2018 7:03 pm

“Maybe exploding a fuel, that wastes a lot of energy as heat is not the most efficient way power a car.”
From mine to MPG, there’s waste in EVs too. When the new ICEs from Mazda, GM, Bosch, and others hit the street in a year, the waste gap will be trivial.

Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 7:24 pm

“From mine to MPG”
True, however gasoline is an expensive, high quality fuel which costs much more per unit energy than natural gas, coal, nuclear power etc for a power station.
Which is why an electric car is cheaper to run as far as fuel goes.
I am not picking a winner, but the competition will be fun to watch.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 7:28 pm

What ever happened to the Yugo?

Bryan A
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 29, 2018 7:13 pm

they don’t

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 7:48 pm

Sales statistics show the vehicles that fulfill the drivers needs best, Jeff. The data speak for themselves.

Roger Knights
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 8:17 pm

Jeff May 27, 2018 at 7:24 pm
“From mine to MPG”
True, however gasoline is an expensive, high quality fuel which costs much more per unit energy than natural gas, coal, nuclear power etc for a power station.


Which is why an electric car is cheaper to run as far as fuel goes.

Until tt battery conks out, ard 8000–12,000 miles. Its depreciation shd be accounted for in the “fuel cost” figure.

Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 10:01 pm

Its depreciation shd be accounted for in the “fuel cost” figure.

Good point, that alters the equation in a big way.

Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 10:53 pm

batteries can be repurposed as cheap grid storage.

A C Osborn
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 28, 2018 2:26 am

Jeff, what country do you live in.
In Europe the cost of Petrol/Deisel is mostly Tax.
How do you think the various Governments are going to replace that tax if everyone goes EV?
EVs are not just subsidised by direct subsidies, they also pay very little in the way of fuel taxes of any kind other than “Green ones”.
Let’s see how cheap they are to run when they are paying 400% tax.

Reply to  Roger Knights
May 28, 2018 3:10 am

Batteries can also be recycled into building materials. Literally Bricked.
Trump can ‘Build the Wall’ out of Bricked Tesla’s.
(now I have Pink Floyd going through my head)

Bryan A
Reply to  schitzree
May 29, 2018 7:11 pm

with the number of Teslas built so far, this would cover the first 5 miles of wall

Roger Knights
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 28, 2018 3:33 am

“batteries can be repurposed as cheap grid storage.”
That’s good—it avoids filling up a landfill—answer possibly contaminating the environs. But the amount a car-owner would get from a recycler would be tiny in comparison to the amount a new battery would cost: over $12,000 for a Tesla’s.
BTW, I messed up my comment above, which should have read:
“Until the battery conks out, after around 8–12 years. Its depreciation should be accounted for in the “fuel cost” figure.”

J Mac
May 27, 2018 4:40 pm

RE: “It won’t haul a ton of logs up a muddy track or take 6 people from LA to NY without recharging or whatever is today’s excuse for dismissing EVs.”
If it won’t do these things, it does not serve my various driving, hauling, and towing demands. Similarly, EV products don’t serve the physical and economic needs of many citizens of the USA. Don’t make excuses for niche products that do not serve most customers needs. You only succeed in insulting the intelligence and common sense of a large potential market. However, if your intent is to ‘virtue signal’ to the niche ‘environmentalist’ market, then by all means ‘keep it up’.

Reply to  J Mac
May 27, 2018 5:46 pm

J Mac: I have a Ford F250 V-10 4×4 with factory tow package. It is adequate for my needs ;o)
(Up until not too many years ago, all that Rolls Royce would say about the horsepower of their cars was that it was ‘adequate.’)

Reply to  J Mac
May 28, 2018 4:05 am

agree, outside of suburbia theyre more bloody danger on the rd!
dont reckon theyd handle a roo or emu hit either;-)
i need to fit 5 large dogs 200+kg as well as myself and shopping, a drive to the big shops is 2hrs 200+k over rough roads.
cant see a p*ssant little leccy tincan in my life now or ever.
and at least if SHTF a diesel can run on some fish shop fat

May 27, 2018 4:44 pm

I have no problem with the Western auto industry putting big money into electric vehicle development, what I object to is the Western auto industry putting MY MONEY into electric vehicle development.
Private funds invested without passing the risk to me as a taxpayer, all good.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 27, 2018 5:03 pm

There’s over 1 billion cars in the world….they sold 25,000……snort
Honda sells more golf carts………..

John Hardy
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 28, 2018 12:52 am

Agreed Eric

Crispin in Waterloo
May 27, 2018 4:59 pm

It’s too bad the list of electric vehicles doesn’t include all of them. The total number sold in China is huge. I am not impressed with the murmurs about range and capacity. The model is above is designed for a market segment. So what if it doesn’t do ‘everything’?
I will not be buying a Tesla. It is not aimed at my cohort. The Jeep plug-in hybrid, maybe. 103 mpg. Impressive.

Reply to  Crispin in Waterloo
May 27, 2018 5:04 pm

perceptive comment.
EV’s aren’t for everyone, so market segmentation from a manufacturers perspective is natural. It’s distorted by government intervention though.
Bring on the EV’s, I say, Just don’t expect me to pay for someone else’s.

Roy Frybarger
Reply to  HotScot
May 28, 2018 2:06 am

You think you have a choice whether or not your tax money is used to fund the purchase of EVs? LOL.

Reply to  Crispin in Waterloo
May 27, 2018 7:25 pm

Depends on the design. Just off the top of my head: Both regenerative braking and acceleration for some. Others also use electric for short range and ICE for longer range so the first part of a trip is on the electric. Stop and go driving also can have better fuel efficiency with a hybrid. The ICE can run at an optimum speed and be smaller than that required for acceleration.
Government stupidity in the Washington D.C. area allowed hybrids on the HOV lanes to encourage their use. Of course the hybrids were running at full speed on their ICE and avoiding stop and go driving so they weren’t doing a d*mn thing to reduce pollution which was the intent of promoting hybrids.

John Hardy
Reply to  Crispin in Waterloo
May 28, 2018 12:59 am

5 words or less “Carnot cycle”. There is a theoretical limit to the efficiency when turning heat into a turning shaft. Carnot cycle losses for an EV happen at the power station at vastly closer to that theoretical limit, and arein any case of the same order of magnitude as the losses in extracting, refining and distributing petrol/gas

Mike McMillan
May 27, 2018 5:08 pm

Nothing new about this. Chevrolet had an Impala version of the JATO in 1967.
1967 Chevrolet Impala JATO

J Mac
Reply to  Mike McMillan
May 27, 2018 6:13 pm

Think of the average Darwin Award recipient as a demonstration of ‘evolution in action’….
AKA – “Hang on to my beer and watch this!”

May 27, 2018 5:13 pm

When do electric cars start paying their fair share of the taxes generated by the sale of gasoline and diesel fuel?

Reply to  Trebla
May 27, 2018 7:30 pm

Good point, it’s far from a level playing field.
Governments may be reluctant to lose all that revenue.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Trebla
May 27, 2018 7:32 pm

Obviously black boxes need to be installed to track road use so that these vehicles pay the appropriate amount of tax for road upkeep. And Big Brother gets a little closer to keeping tabs on you.

Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 27, 2018 8:36 pm

Already been done.
Several states even have per-mile road taxes in the planning stages. One idea that has been floated is that the tax will be assessed during you vehicle’s annual safety inspection when the data is downloaded.
Politicians will not be able to resist a whole new revenue stream to spend. Government will not be able to resist the opportunity to spy on, and control the population.

Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 27, 2018 9:32 pm

What about tamper proof odometers in the car that is read once a year.?
Tax = milage x vehicle weight.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 28, 2018 5:41 am

TonyL May 27, 2018 at 8:36 pm
Some states do not have annual inspections, Florida being one. But in any event, you vill report to your local Commisar every 6 months to be questioned as to the accuracy of the mileage log you are supposed to keep. Fines and jail time for all.

J Mac
Reply to  Trebla
May 27, 2018 11:15 pm

All EVs and hybrids should be paying per-mile road use taxes, to pay their ‘fair share’ of road maintenance and construction costs. Further, they should have no subsidy support associated with the initial purchase costs. Similarly, city and urban bicyclists should pay substantial license fees for ‘fair share’ road use and to cover the costs of dedicated bicycle lanes in city and urban environs.
C’mon socialists! Pay your fair share! If you want the same rights as motor vehicles, pay for the privilege, just like everyone else!

May 27, 2018 5:16 pm

Americans love their big cars, always have. Today SUVs and pickups are the big thing. What happens when you introduce a diminutive car which is little more than a glorified golf cart into this market?
Crash and burn.
These tiny little electrics probably make sense in some of the super congested Asian cities, but that market is completely different from the US and other western markets. Indeed, if they can replace all those 2-cycle engine powered scooters, motorcycles and 3-wheelers, they could be ahead. The 2-cycle engine may be many things, but they are *not* clean, and they are *not* efficient.
As far as the larger EVs on offer in the US, the only reason they exist at all is due to the Obama era proposed CAFE standards. Some careful observers have noted that the new CAFE standards were designed so that EVs would have to be part of any company’s mix for that company to have any hope of meeting the new requirements. This is why the auto companies can sell the EVs at a loss. They gain the CAFE points which are then applied across the rest of the fleet.
Do away with the onerous CAFE standards, and the EV market in the US goes *POOF*.
Of course, the Trump administration has held up, and is reviewing the new CAFE standards.
Popcorn time.
(CAFE = Corporate Average Fuel Economy)

Reply to  TonyL
May 27, 2018 5:44 pm


J Mac
Reply to  TonyL
May 27, 2018 6:15 pm

A very good point, worth repeating!

Reply to  TonyL
May 27, 2018 6:17 pm

“What happens when you introduce a diminutive car which is little more than a glorified golf cart into this market?”
What happens when SF and LA say no gasoline cars or trucks in our cites?

Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 27, 2018 6:45 pm

What happens when SF and LA say no gasoline cars or trucks in our cites?

What happens is that you have crossed a line. You are no longer in America.
Unfortunately, government picking winners and losers is getting altogether too common these days. It always ends badly, both for the consumer and the taxpayer.
Banning ICE vehicles would be a huge exercise in picking losers and winners.
A government which could or would do something like this is one with unlimited power and no restraints whatsoever on it’s actions. That kind of government exists but it is *not* America.

Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 27, 2018 9:08 pm

What happens when SF and LA say no gasoline cars or trucks in our cites?
No groceries, no maintenance trucks such as no power maintence trucks, no water supply maintence trucks, no sewerage maintenance trucks , no cranes for construction, no supermarket supply trucks, no road construction and maintence trucks or machinery.
Fire trucks that run for few minutes on batteries when operating their pumps at full power, Ambulances and emergency vehicles in a mass tragedy situation that run out of battery power whilst doing their care of the injured but take half a dozen hours to recharge.
No heavy diesel powered vehicles so the city stops as does everything that moves in that city including all electric vehicles that use ALL of those facilities maintained and powered by using diesel engined heavy vehicles as the main maintenance transport vehicles .
In the early part of the 20th century entrepenuers refined oil products into a useable vehicle fuel [ basically kerosene ]. Then they built the continent wide service station network out of the profits they made from selling fuel to their customer vehicle owners. They built the vehicle maintenance network from the profits made from servicing those vehicle
The governments of the day, the british in particular did anything but assist the new industry with the example of having a man with a red flagwalk in front of those banging, popping ,noisy, smelly vehicles so any horse riders would be warned in case their horses bolted.
Governments ffinally come to the party and began to build roads after private toll roads were first built by private companies so as to faclitate the movement of those new fangled vehicles.
The era of mass transport by fossil fueled vehicles which has done so much for the whole world over the past cwsentury was created DESPITE the forces of governmment rying to hold the new industry back.
Today, electric vehicle owners get huge tax payer funded subsidies when they buy their EV’s.
EV owners get special reductions in their vehicle license fees.
EV owners get the right to use normally restricted to emergency and public transport traffic lanes.
Charging points are being put up at the ordinary fossil fuel vehicle owners tax payed and license fee expense
Who is going to be expected to pay for the new power generators that will be needed to produce the electricity to charge up millions of EV’s.?
Who will be expected to pay to rebuild many parts of the national grids to take the load of millions of EV’s being charged around the same time each day?
In the increasing chances of power restrictions due to poor or completely non existent government planning and preplanning, [ Australia in particular ] who will get priority for power, EV owners or the citizens in their homes and businesses?
Who will have to pay to dispose of the few million tonnes of out of life batteries beginning in less than a decade, as with the solar panels right now, with their toxic and dangerous chemicals.?
The politicians who never seem to bother about running through the often tragic and disastrous unintended consequences of their latest ; “it sounded like a good idea at the time ” or arent’ mentally capable of doing so, are all about picking winners once again.
And that, as sure as night follows day, will lead to economic and possible social disastersona grand scale considering the size of the global vehicle industry.
And as usual the people NOT responsible for the utter politically created disaster, the tax payers and non EV owners will be expected to pay for all of the above.
Meanwhuile a whole gamut of politicly well connected corporations and individuals will trouser billions of the publics funds and then slink off into the night .
Before anything more is done by politicians to throw bucket loads of money in the direction of EV and EV pushers and pimps, politicians shoild sit down and think through what will be required in an overall system built for EV’s and what at will cost?
Who will pay and how?
And most fundamentally, the reasoning behind having mass EV transport as there are already papers and studies out there that indicate that EV’s, after taking into account the building and operation of the rquired increase in base load generators tocharge the EV fleet , the building of transmission lines and an EV charging network, the losses in power between the generators and the EV’s individual charging points, the losses in the actual EV’s operation, when ALL of these factors plus others are taken into account, the emmissions of the total EV supporting network on a mass scale pass the ordinary fossil fueled vehicle and its supporting network by quite a large margin.
So what exactly is the reasoning for going to EV’s in the first place?

Mike McMillan
Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 27, 2018 9:42 pm

“What happens when SF and LA say no gasoline cars or trucks in our cites?”
Traffic congestion problem solved.

J Mac
Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 27, 2018 11:23 pm

What happens when commercial enterprises charge exorbitantly high prices to cover the costs of eV delivering goods and services to your command and control socialist economy?

Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 28, 2018 1:30 am

“The governments of the day, the british in particular did anything but assist the new industry with the example of having a man with a red flagwalk in front of those banging, popping ,noisy, smelly vehicles so any horse riders would be warned in case their horses bolted.”
100 years later we realized how completely stupid this was, and we got the enormous benefits of individually driven, fast personal transport. The price paid was small, it turned out to be only about 1 million deaths a year globally. Well, and some serious injuries too.
Well worth it. Those idiots with their red flags!

Nigel S
Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 28, 2018 1:53 am

michel: Suicides are higher than vehicle fatalities in USA and UK. Perhaps we should start serious work on that too.
USA: 12.6/100k suicide, 10.6 vehicle; UK 7.4 suicide, 2.9 vehicle
Homicides are lower in both cases (USA 4.9; UK 0.9).

Tom in Florida
Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 28, 2018 5:44 am

“What happens when SF and LA say no gasoline cars or trucks in our cites?”
Not a single luxury
Like Robinson Crusoe
It’s primitive as can be.

Reply to  reallyskeptical
May 28, 2018 5:57 am

Yes, suicide is a major killer and a tragic one. As are heart disease and deaths from obesity and lifestyle issues.
But it is quite different from accidental deaths and injuries which come from having chosen a transportation system which is intrinsically dangerous.
One which, were it proposed today, with the known parameters of the system and its effects today, would never even get seriously considered. No matter how convenient and beneficial, no system with that death rate would ever get started. We would simply refuse to consider the tradeoff.
Our transport system today, at least the parts involving the car, are a bit like the combined water and sewage systems in London before the introduction of modern sewage cleaned up the source of fresh water.
The question you have to answer is: do you think close on one million deaths per year worldwide (not to mention the air pollution) are an acceptable price to pay for the benefits that the car brings?
If so, why? Make the case, if you can. Don’t try to evade it.

Robert of Ottawa
May 27, 2018 5:17 pm

In Brazil, “um jato” is a ploy, play or trick. Just an observation.

Thomas Ryan
May 27, 2018 6:13 pm

A business model that is based on America’s past. Since the biggest drawback to EVs is limited range buy a bunch of EVs and place them around the country, ala the Pony Express. Every 200 miles you swap your EV for one juiced up and continue on your way. You are welcome, Elon.

J Mac
Reply to  Thomas Ryan
May 27, 2018 6:25 pm

… a dEVolution solution there, ‘range rider’??! Revolting…..

R. Shearer
Reply to  J Mac
May 27, 2018 6:50 pm

Nice double-entendre there.

R. Shearer
May 27, 2018 6:35 pm

Get ready for higher electricity costs and road taxes, too.

Another Ian
Reply to  R. Shearer
May 27, 2018 7:04 pm
May 27, 2018 6:45 pm

The Nissan Leaf has just lost its sales crown to the BAIC EV, as the Chinese car has become the best-selling EV in the first two months of the year.
According to data from Jato Dynamics, the BAIC EC was chosen by 15,132 people…

15,132 worldwide in January and February 2018.
Ford F-Series pickup trucks, US only sales:
January 2018 58,937
February 201 68,243comment image

Reply to  David Middleton
May 27, 2018 7:26 pm

comment image
Top 10 BEV’s global, Jan-Feb 2018= 60,450
Ford F-Series, US only, Jan-Feb 2018 = 127,180comment image

John Hardy
Reply to  David Middleton
May 28, 2018 1:05 am

Dave – it isn’t about today tomorrow or even next year. Your reaction is that of Hassleblad to digital photography. Hasslebald was ubiquitous on the Apollo but lost their crown to the likes of Nikon

Reply to  John Hardy
May 28, 2018 3:13 am

Tesla, a US company, has been at the “bleeding” edge of EV fantasy land since the beginning. Combined Models S, X and 3 sales top the CHICOM EC. Tesla is supposedly building the mother-of-all gigafactories and Tony Stark Elon Musk even has a beachhead in Red China… yet the Telsa Ponzi scheme is always just one infusion of OPM ahead of insolvency.comment image
Why? Because there is a 97% consensus among US carbuyers that EV’s are undesirable.

Reply to  John Hardy
May 30, 2018 6:46 am

Agree, it’s the change in the change that matters. EVs are a thing. A few years back they weren’t. People in here are still asking what is the rationale for going to EVs, or making excuses for avoiding their on-going spiral adoption.

No one walking into the showroon even cares about that stuff. But for the record, it’s the same rationale as for going to gasoline cars over horse and buggy–because we can.

May 27, 2018 6:45 pm

Vancouver’s gas prices are the highest in North America, currently appx. C$1.59 /Lt (US$5.98/gal) for ethanol diluted “regular”. Our electric utility suggested saving money by going electric, (“under $40,000 now!”) Realizing the impact of tax avoidance (40-50C/Lt, the powers that be are now considering per/mile “road pricing” which would vaporize much of the cost savings.

Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 6:46 pm

“the Chinese mean to eat the Western auto industry for breakfast.”
I’ve read in a comment on Seeking Alpha that domestic-market Chinese EVs wouldn’t pass Western crashworthiness tests.

R. Shearer
Reply to  Roger Knights
May 27, 2018 6:52 pm

Hence, a way to meet organ harvesting demands.

May 27, 2018 6:50 pm

Electric cars are the cars of the future and always will be.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  gunsmithkat
May 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Meet George Jetson.

Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 28, 2018 3:56 am

His boy Elroy.

Michael 2
Reply to  gunsmithkat
May 27, 2018 8:25 pm

Eventually cars themselves won’t be in the future.

Matt Bergin
Reply to  gunsmithkat
May 28, 2018 12:24 am

No Gunny actually electric cars are things of the past. The first cars were electric.The same reasons EV’s didn’t work in 1917 still apply to today’s EV’s

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Matt Bergin
May 28, 2018 5:30 am

Upon reflection I think gunsmithkat was being sarcastic meaning EVs will always be “in the future”, much like the “free beer tomorrow” signs.

Eric Von Salzen
May 27, 2018 6:51 pm

Damn! I’m sorry to hear that the JATO car Darwin Award story isn’t true. It’s a great story.

May 27, 2018 7:32 pm

I bought a 3 year old Leaf for $9k, and have driven it for 4 years with zero maintenance costs (so far…) Costs me about $0.04 per mile to drive. I use it for all my in town driving. I still have my Suburban for hauling the Scouts and ‘stuff’ around. The Suburban costs over $0.50 per mile to drive.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  0x01010101
May 27, 2018 7:36 pm

Personal choice in transportation needs is always good, as long as the government doesn’t decree what we all must do and then take our money to make it happen.

J Mac
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 27, 2018 11:26 pm

Agree! As long as I don’t have to pay for subsidies that support the poor choices that others make.

Matt Bergin
Reply to  0x01010101
May 28, 2018 12:36 am

I bought a 1992 ford F150 for $200 and I have also driven it for four years. It has 300,000 miles on it. I expect to be driving it for quite a few more years. Most likely long after the Nissan has gone to it’s grave. The money I saved by not buying an EV allows me to drive for many years for free by using it to buy gas. Since I only use about $1500 worth of gas each year it should be easy to drive for over 20 years for free. I love my little truck. 🙂

Reply to  0x01010101
May 28, 2018 3:53 am

0X01 — I’d be worried someone might aim a leaf-blower at your car.

May 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Of course, when the EVs dominate the market and all the commuters plug in for a recharge at 7pm when the sun is down and the wind is calm there might be a problem.

Reply to  Gary
May 27, 2018 8:23 pm

No problem!
When a power shortage is detected, your smart electric company contacts your home’s smart meter and cuts off power to your home. Then you can disconnect your car from it’s smart charger. The smart charger will then relay information to the smart meter that it is no longer in use, so the smart meter will then restore power to your home.
Perfect, it is Smart Technology!

Tom in Florida
Reply to  TonyL
May 28, 2018 5:32 am

Of course when storms hit and power is interrupted for days on end ………………..

Reply to  TonyL
May 30, 2018 6:52 am

” … Then you can disconnect your car from it’s smart charger. … ”

No need for that even, a software defined controller isolates cuts off power and signal to and from the circuit in a millisecond.

Bryan A
Reply to  Gary
May 30, 2018 5:11 pm

It certainly will act to shift Peak Load Time

May 27, 2018 8:17 pm

I want an EV, while it’s completely impractical for my lifestyle, just to put a powered by coal sticker on it.

J Mac
Reply to  Jeanparisot
May 27, 2018 11:33 pm

I’d like to help you! I’ll sell you new turn signal lenses that illuminate the word “Virtue” every time you turn a corner, so you can also virtue signal at every turn. I’d suggest an illuminated and center mounted “Powered By Coal” brake light lense also, just to keep things honest.

May 27, 2018 9:15 pm

Up here in northern Canada some officials at the local uni and city hall wanted an electric toy. So under the guise of research using taxpayer money they bought a Leaf. Now in the winter when it gets really cold, cold battery, heater, wipers, lights, pushing snow it is next to useless.
They get around the useless part when it gets very cold by only publishing an average performance drop off over the winter, sneaky.

Tom Judd
May 27, 2018 10:13 pm

When I first saw the headline to this story I thought to myself, wow, they got it to work. An urban legend has been blessed with flesh and blood reality. The urban legend held that some nitwit strapped rockets to his old Buick which was later discovered as large, paper thin remnants of smashed, shattered, flattened, steel and glass spread across a hillside at the end of a very gentle bend on an otherwise straight rural highway. 300 mph in an old Buick and he never considered that he’d have no way to turn off those rockets.
Where’d he get the rockets? From an old Air Force base. They were Jet Assisted Take Off rockets normally strapped to aircraft to reduce runway length.
So a Chinese automaker perfected an urban legend involving JATO bottles.

Peter Morris
May 27, 2018 10:40 pm

Oh good. The Chinese have finally taken the bait.

May 28, 2018 12:01 am

A staggering number of comments on such a small story. I’m wondering if Elon Musk’s propaganda is starting to work.

John Hardy
May 28, 2018 12:47 am

That’s a fair point Forrest. I’m not interested in virtue signalling either. I’d just like the Western auto industry to wake up and smell the coffee in time to prevent them following Kodak, Hasselblad and the mass market Swiss mechanical watch industry in either extinction or marginalisation

Peter Plail
May 28, 2018 1:16 am

Re your headline “New electric car–the ‘JATO’ “, JATO is the company presenting the market intelligence (the car sales statistics), the car is the BAIC-EC. Or is there something ironic in the title that I am completely missing (wouldn’t be the first time!).

Reply to  Peter Plail
May 28, 2018 6:18 am

What’s the fun in that?

May 28, 2018 1:40 am

Well, two thoughts.
The first is that the death and injury rate from cars, globally, is totally unacceptable. No proposal to introduce a transportation with these human costs would get serious consideration today.
The conclusion is that anything which limits car use and ownership is going to be a good thing. This includes raising the price of cars by compelling everyone to move to electric.
The second is that exhaust pollutants from ICE cars are one main thing impairing quality of life in cities. Electric cars would still crash, because that’s inherent in the system of swarms of un-networked vehicles under independent human control, they would still be making it unsafe and unpleasant to walk and cycle when they monopolize roadways, but at least they would not be polluting the air we all breathe.

Roy Frybarger
Reply to  michel
May 28, 2018 2:12 am

Yes, absolutely. Stay home where you’re safe. Totalitarian much?

Reply to  Roy Frybarger
May 28, 2018 6:01 am

Not in the least totalitarian. Just a rational person struck by the total insanity of our present transportation system and its human cost.
Just as a rational person cannot fail to be struck by the irrationality of people in some developing countries defaecating everywhere including into their fresh water sources. Yes, that is how bad and stupid it is, our present transport system.
People wrecking neighborhoods by driving through them on the way to their own, which is also wrecked by other people driving through them to get to theirs. Killing and polluting as they go, and getting obese from lack of exercise with it.

Reply to  michel
May 28, 2018 3:48 am

The “things” that impair city life is crime, corruption, greed, socialism/marxism, drugs, violence, crowding, taxes, cost-of-living, apathy, poor education, trash, etc, etc, etc.

Gunga Din
Reply to  michel
May 28, 2018 7:17 am

How will deaths from car accidents going to be reduced by replacing ICE cars with EV cars?
Is it safer to wreck a Tesla or a BAIC EC than a real car?

Roy Frybarger
May 28, 2018 2:33 am

Just don’t turn on the oven. By 2042 we’ll certainly have coerced wind turbines to achieve maximum production during the optimal hours for car charging, but the dinner hour will have to adapt.

May 28, 2018 2:39 am

EVs are getting better all the time , and yet the rang of this car is little better than the rang of the first EV cars from 100 years ago ! And it was this shortfall with price and charging that meet this idea was overtaken by ICE cars in the first place .
Seems like the more somethings change the more the stay the same , still there will be free beer tomorrow as there always is when it comes to EV.

Reply to  knr
May 28, 2018 3:07 am

EVs are reaching their limits and that already today. You do not need 100 years of our future for this.
Actually, the electric motor has been around since 1820. Nevertheless, it has not prevailed in these 200 years. That must have a reason. Or was great big oil hiding the perpetuum mobile in the drawer for 200 years. Years of dizziness, so to speak.

May 28, 2018 3:24 am

EV drivers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your bikes:

Reply to  dennisambler
May 28, 2018 4:09 am

As soon as mechanisms and necessities such as profitability and profit come into play, the house of cards collapses. Green politics works only with two pillars: government support and propaganda. That is not enough.

May 28, 2018 3:42 am

What’s that thing on the left side of the pic? Looks like a nose-view of a Zeppelin lying on the ground….

May 28, 2018 3:48 am

Nobody knows the future. The e-mobility seems to conquer the world within the next decade. The reasons put forward by its supporters are:
* more efficient / lower cost per mileage
* less noise
* less emissions
* simpler technology
* every carmaker around the world is investing billions in new e-models
While every single reason might be true there are the same arguments on the other side. The efficiency is very much depending on the grid. In Germany for example, with one of the highest contents of renewables in the grid, emissions, efficiency and costs (without taxes) are the same for a diesel car and an e-car. Only if you add taxes the e-car will have lower costs per mileage. But if one thing is for sure, it will be the future rise of taxes on electricity as soon as e-cars would dominate the market and the tax revenue of fossil fuels would collapse. There are already discussions in the EU to force e-cars to produce artificial noise in order to avoid accidents with pedestrians. So, even the noise argument is not 100% true.
On the other hand there is plenty of unresolved problems like available ressources (lithium, cobalt, rare earth) the recycling of batteries or the capacity of the grid. Even if the whole grid was capable of supplying enough energy for the e-mobility, many local grid cells won’t. In order to prepare for e-mobility all (!) cells with a too low capacity would have to be upgraded upfront because you never know where the next e-car buyer is located. That will again increase costs. The same with a complete new loading infrastructure all over the country. This produces costs and they will one way or the other be handed over to consumers / tax payers.
At the end of the day there is no real advantage of battery driven e-cars except moving emissions from urban areas to places where the energy is produced. But even the relocation of the emissions has no real benefit for the driver himself in his car and in case of CO2 (if you really want to believe in its danger) it doesn’t make any difference at all, where the emission takes place.
So why should anyone sacrifice cheap and everywhere available energy, flexibility and driving range, when he doesn’t get anything in return? In my eyes, the proclaimed success of e-mobility still has a long way to go, probably with never ending subsidies (see the sharp drop of e-sales in china in the first quarter of 2018 due to subsidy changes). Also, it will be interesting to see how subsidies will do in the near future with (sharply) rising interst rates. Although the success of e-mobility might seem certain the e-road is paved with many, many question marks after looking into the details.
Maybe someday in the distant future fuel cells will make it, but battery e-cars simply aren’t smart enough to guarantee a fast, global success.

May 28, 2018 3:57 am

EV – drove one for 2 years, loved the performance, hated the recharge time after I’d used the performance.
Rumors persist that a BMW i3 will reach in excess of 95 mph, after which, one would need 22 hr to recharge it using the “free” charger that comes with the vehicle. The recharge time sure would cut down on the effective range.
Without a long-life, easily rechargeable power source an EV is just a local vehicle, fast, quiet, but local. That means that real logistically effective EV is still quite a ways off.

Reply to  wsbriggs
May 28, 2018 4:13 am

And it is also questionable how long EVs are still quiet. There are also protectable interests of other road users, such as cyclists and pedestrians, who do not participate in a coat of sheet metal in traffic. There are already considerations to artificially make EVs artificially louder. Gone are the advantages of the quiet engine.

May 28, 2018 4:35 am

In 20 years,,most people will be driving around in cars motivated by Mr Rossi new power plant.
He now can get 100kW from something the size of a tin biscuit box.
Steam cars may be back?

Reply to  Twobob
May 28, 2018 8:02 am

I hate to be a doubter, but Mr. Rossi’s powerplant is a few years late.
Consistent results are found by people using the pre-assembled M-Nanor(tm) products. See JCMNS Vol25 for details. I think that a 1.25 gain factor puts LENR at the same level as early experiments on steam power, it’s not ready for prime time by a long shot.

May 28, 2018 5:27 am

The sales chart posted by Willis Eschenbach near the top of this thread reminded me of the old story about shoe sales in Africa a century or so ago.
At the end of the nineteenth century, just as colonial Africa was opening up as a market, all the manufacturers of shoes in Victorian England sent their representatives to Africa to see if there might be an opportunity there for their wares. All duly came back in time with the same answer. ‘Nobody in Africa wears shoes. So, there is no market for our products there.’
The exception was the Bata rep. He came back saying, ‘Nobody in Africa wears shoes. So, there’s a huge market for our products in Africa!’

May 28, 2018 5:28 am

BEV “to eat the Western auto industry for breakfast.”
Let’s see if BEV takes the whole auto industry. 2017 global car sales is 96 million. Weight of Li-ion car battery is 540 kg. That’s 51.84 tonnes of lithium per year. Global lithium reserve is 16 million tonnes. Well that’s good for 4 months of car sales. It looks like the auto industry will eat the lithium mining industry for snack
A spoonful of Li-ion snack

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
May 28, 2018 5:31 am

Typo error – that’s 51.84 million tonnes

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
May 30, 2018 7:06 am

And you’re going to get a lesson in supply and denand, and one of those lessons is the evet surpring role of substitutions in energy and technology transitions.

More immediately, claims that Li will run out, is the same old failed Club of Rome BS mentality, barely even repackaged, and it’s got zero chance of occurring btw.

Ask yourself in December this year why there was no lithium battery crisis. And promise yourself that you’ll never listen to such misleading useless doomer guff again.

michael hart
May 28, 2018 5:44 am

People laughed at the first Japanese car exports to Europe and the US too.
This is why the auto industry apparently sided with the global warmers the other day; they want some regulations that will hinder the Chinese exporters before they become problem for Western/Japanese manufacturers.

May 28, 2018 6:37 am

Outstanding essay!
Bob Hoye

Coeur de Lion
May 28, 2018 6:56 am

I’m a bit ignorant about these EVs but does the quoted mileage include power steering, headlights, air conditioning /heater?

Sun Spot
May 28, 2018 7:06 am

EV’s are useless in the winter and hills of Virginia, Pennsylvania, North/South Carolina welllll pretty much anywhere where its either hilly or gets cold, so lets just say they’re a rich mans hobby toy or for someone who thinks they should buy an indulgence for their perceived CO2 sins.

May 28, 2018 7:08 am

Has anybody crash tested it yet? if it is like most Chinese cars it will disintegrate if it crashes into a sparrow.

John Pickens
May 28, 2018 7:28 am

I would suggest that the initial surge of purchasers of EV autos in China is due to the governmental perks given to those who purchase one. Namely, preferred parking locations at charging stations. The vast majority of city dwellers in the PRC live in multi story apartment/condo buildings. The vast majority of these buildings have minimal allowance for personal automobile parking. If you own a government-preferred EV, you have may have access to these preferred parking/charging facilities.
What will be the key factor in future expansion of EV sales in the PRC will be whether the government can sustain the huge numbers of parking and charging stations which would be necessary for this expansion.
For now, the wealthy Chinese citizen can buy an EV and tromp on his neighbor with special privilege perks of EV ownership as well as compliance with Big Brother’s currently preferred product.

May 28, 2018 7:30 am

I’m not afraid of the Chinese, economically. They suffer from the same handicap that the Soviet Union suffered—a government determined to do central planning. In the long run, this makes an economy inflexible.
From the perspective of electric cars, I do see an advantage (energy-wise) to use an electric motor, but I don’t see the logic in using a battery as the primary energy storage device. The energy density is simply too low. I see the investment in battery cars as a waste of money. If you aren’t going to see a 10-times improvement in performance it isn’t really much of a development.

Reply to  MS
May 30, 2018 8:32 pm

The Swedish Transport Administration is working on two test projects involving heavy-duty trucks that receive electricity from the road. Well, not something built into the asphalt, but something up above. On a stretch of highway E16 in Sandviken, there’s a test project that involves an energy-collecting device on the roof of a truck that connects to an apparatus that’s about 18 feet off the ground. Think of electric light rail cables.

May 28, 2018 7:33 am

We need more rolling toxic waste dumps.
I have a 2012 Mitsubishi Miev, paid $4000 for it at an auction, like new condition with 12k miles. Factory warranty 10 years.
I drive it to work to save miles on my truck, and it’s cheaper to drive.
We also own two hybrids.
The trick is to sell your EV/hybrid shortly before the warranty runs out. Any long term savings is purely imaginary unless you get them used. Whether or not the public buys into the scam doesn’t change the facts.
Only a leap in battery technology will change my mind.

Paul Sarmiento
May 28, 2018 8:30 am

Maybe some of you should look at something small that may take over Asian and African countries that could lead to these regions becoming dominated by electric vehicles.
I own an ebike and from personal experience, it is much much cheaper to operate and maintain than a motorcycle or a car (no oil, not much gears, no gasoline tanks). My weekly cost in electricity is around 30 PhP (0.70 USD). I charge every other day. It has a range of 50 Km and runs at 36 Kph. No, I don’t use it to run to the city but it’s perfect for driving to our local grocery and errands around town.
Pedicab drivers in our area have converted from using bicycle to e-bikes.

Michael Keal
May 30, 2018 3:02 pm

On reading through the discussions above it occurs to me, as an engineer, that the ‘next big thing’ in private transport is most unlikely to be the electric car for a whole host of reasons all related to the blindingly obvious fact that when it comes to energy density based on either mas, volume, cost or time taken to refill, a tank of petrol/gas or diesel or liquid petroleum gas, beats anything else hands-down on all fronts.
So what is this really about and why do some motor manufacturers want to be seen going along with this boondoggle?
Well here’s my tuppence-worth on this.
I think the next big thing will by flying cars.
When you’ve finished having a good laugh, may I suggest you stop to think for a moment.
Flying cars, once they take off (yes, I do love a pun) will transform the planet.
Just think. Fewer, not more, motorways, spaghetti junctions etc. etc. Wild-life (and humans) able to roam free without fear of becoming roadkill. The list is long.
Possible? In my view yes. But not powered by batteries of any kind. And not when fuel prices are held artificially high through cross-subsidisation of electric vehicles.
And who might pull this off?
Well Elon Musk can reverse-park his rockets (while most of us struggle to reverse-park our cars).
So, could the man who was educated at Pretoria Boys High one day pull this particular cat out the bag?
Well, he does do difficult with seeming ease and although the impossible may take him a little longer he does have the perfect plant to begin manufacturing them …
As some Roman once said, “Out of Africa, always something new.”

May 30, 2018 3:46 pm

“Wild-life able to roam free without fear of becoming roadkill.”

Unless you are a bird.

Robert Smith
May 30, 2018 5:47 pm

Just finished vacation in Phoenix (May 2018) and got to use my daughter’s electric BMW car to run around town. Max charge range was claimed to be 88 miles. Turn on the airconditioning and the range dropped to about 75 miles (nice feature to show miles remaining). Since the Phoenix metro area is roughly 100 miles east to west and 75 miles north to south, I had to plan outings carefully (ended one with 6 miles remaining). A full recharge took more than 12 hours. The temperatures this May were not too bad (highs in the 95 to105F range). If the battery ran down while out on the road, the vehcile required a flatbed pickup and delivery to a charging station (in this case, home). My daughter did say she could get a plug-in at one of the malls for about $10 (minimum cost to connect).

Mike Macray
May 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Could this vehicle be named after an early Darwin Award recipient?
As I recall the award was created by G. Gordon Liddy back in the ’90s. to recognise those who removed themselves from the gene pool with an act of exceptional stupidity before procreating.
This Darwin Awardee strapped two JATO booster rockets ( 3000 lb. thrust each) on his 3000lb. automobile ( an Oldsmobile if my memory serves)… His and the vehicle’s remains were found embedded two hundred feet above the road in a cliff face with the brakes still fully applied.
Just wondered if there’s a connection..??

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