Guest essay by Eric Worrall
The mind boggling energy burn required to verify each bitcoin payment or currency transfer is finally attracting the attention of Democrat Party climate advocates.
A Silicon Valley congressman says energy consumption from Bitcoin mining needs to be taxed
…
And all that power usage — and its effect on the environment — is catching attention on Capitol Hill. In an interview with Business Insider, California Rep. Ro Khanna said that Bitcoin mining should be regulated in the same fashion as proposed carbon taxes.
“You could have environmental regulations of what could be used or a tax on the use of the mines that are going into the bitcoin, so that if they have externalities that they’re causing the environment, that they have to pay a tax on that,” he said.
Khanna, who represents part of Silicon Valley, added that a tax on bitcoin transactions’ energy consumption “would provide a disincentive” and “that mining that’s being used for bitcoin, they need to be paying a price on it.”
…
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ro-khanna-energy-consumption-bitcoin-mining-tax-2018-2/
Reading his Wikipedia entry, Congressman Ro Khanna seems to have an unusual mix of qualities for a Democrat. In 2016 Khanna was vice president of a green utility business, aimed at improving energy efficiency. Khanna is very pro-education, he supported Bernie Sander’s college for all initiative. Khanna also sponsored a successful bipartisan Veterans education bill, the Valor Act. Khanna appears to be a hardline non-interventionist with regard to foreign policy.
It seems pretty ballsy for a Congressman whose district includes part of Silicon Valley to criticise Bitcoin, even though I disagree with his reasoning and conclusion. Fortune favours the bold.
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Up next, a Carbon Tax on breathing. Come on, California, you know you want it…
And thus began the bitcoin tax havens of the world
https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/920038/bitcoin-mining-latest-news-price-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-cash-litecoin-ethereum
Iceland!
https://www.gizbot.com/mobile/news/millions-android-phones-hacked-to-mine-cryptocurrency-048094.html
who they gonna tax
Bitcon yes well they’ll find out the hard way. Anyone who thinks Bitcon has a future is stark raving mad, delusional and ignorant of the need for governments to collect tax to pay for all the services that Bitcon boys and girls demand for their cosmo lifestyles. Oh no all that sovereignty safety stuff and health and education stuff just gets paid for by other people; go away and don’t bother me with your trivia. Bitcon is in a government and bank free zone silly . . . didn’t you know that?
It sounds to me like Bitcoin is more trouble than it is worth. Especially to a person like me who has no Bitcoins and no desire to acquire any. A few people seem to be benefiting at a huge cost to the rest of us.
“A few people seem to be benefiting at a huge cost to the rest of us.”
But if what you say is true, then the whole thing would just be a… a…. a Ponzi Scheme!!!
Oh noes say it isn’t so!!! So many Smart Smart People could never fall for a Ponzi Scheme again, could they??
my take on crypto shifted a lot since I first begun to understand money and learned my simplistic view was inaccurate. I learned that in the 1890’s property in Australia had skyrocketed to being ‘worth’ million of pounds (pre-decimal, actual pound values).. until it crashed.
When the banking system crashed and wiped out families, businesses and even government, laws were passed to prevent it happening again – the essence of it was that banks were printing ‘money’ far in excess of the wealth they actually held. They justified it same as they do now “if we lend a million dollars to someone to buy a house then we hold a million in assets , ergo (circular logic) the wealth is preserved by a million dollar house”. The Currency act was passed here to prevent banks ‘inventing money’ and printing paper money. No one could print money any more except the government. Everything got better then in the 1930’s the banks did it again, extending credit far beyond the banks wealth capacity. Crash..
The law was changed again to prevent this pump and run scam. In the 1980’s Paul Keating’s labor government deregulated the banks and now armed with fictional electronic cash, they once again flooded Australia’s economy with fake money – but they haven’t broken any laws.. they didn’t print a thing!
there’s 32 billion in actual printed cash according to treasury, yet there’s 2 trillion in ‘money’ in circulation.
Isacc Newton, clever bloke, set gold as a money standard for a very good reason (and he hunted down and had counterfeiters and forgers executed for the same reason) – money is a preservation of wealth, of time, of labor – of your LIFE. tampering with the value of money destroys economies and lives and industry.
He chose gold because of it’s scarcity. You want more sure you can mine it, but the energy required is what stabilizes it’s value – if wages are high, extracting it becomes uneconomical , if wages are low, mining it becomes viable – it self buffers against rampant mining as the wealth extracted from the mine distributes through the population and renders mining uneconomical.
but the core of it was the money you earned and held preserved it’s value- and it was YOURS. you carried the value in metal in gold, silver or copper in your pocket (unless you were so wealthy you had to entrust it to a bank)
His system saw inflation running at 0.1% per decade. Inflation by the way is actually *devaluation* of moneys capacity to hold it’s value. Now think – in an ever increasing population shouldn’t money do better than just hold it’s value, shouldn’t it become more scarce, driving wages, costs and prices down as scarcity increases? Yes – but that’s where the bloody banks step in pumping fake money into society – that’s where inflation comes from.. their effectively counterfeit fake dollars dilutes the real money – eroding it’s value as a commodity.
Bitcoin is actually a perfect money in a way. It is owned by no country so just like gold, it’s got value everywhere and that value isn’t determined by who’s portrait lies on a sheet of paper issued by a government. It is finite – 21 million is all that can exist. as it’s adopted and as populations increase it becomes scarcer – it’s infinitely divisible (gold copper silver had problems with that, unless like Indonesia you started also minting aluminium coins)
and yes sure, we’re not there yet – ‘mining’ the final ones of the 21,000,000 will be very energy intensive. But hey, Australia’s government only holds 300 million in gold reserves.. when I last calculated that means there’s only 18 grams per person .. that is NOT a lot of wealth backing our country! If we had to mine our way out of debt you could be sure a massive amount of energy would be put ti use extracting as many ounces as we could.
But assume bitcoin takes off , the banks don’t get to invent new ones into existence to dilute the stuff, so wide adoption would mean prices would drop, wages would drop, as whole bitcoin values go higher and higher all the time. And yes sure, the folk who got in first *and who sat on it* would have the bulk of the wealth.. for a time, but that’s no more a ponzi scheme than buying land and developing it is. Or buying a car and then 50 years on discovering it has become rare. Let me put it this way.. if I had 100 pounds in shilling 1945 coins pre-decimal and I didn’t hand them over when we decimalized, I theoretically would have been $200 worse off then. If I now converted those sterling silver coins to current-period value money I’d have over $7000 as a result. Ponzi scheme? no, I would have just been gambling my silver preserved my wealth better than bits of paper. My loss then, my gain now.
As to bitcoin’s long term value? well share market speculation is driving ‘values’ around like a drunk pig at the moment, much as it does precious metals. I mean come on.. silver has been in such short supply of late that there were month-long waiting lists to buy 1kg bars from our local mint.. industry demands masses of the stuff for electronics and barely any is ever recovered. And yet the price was still a mere $20 an ounce? no- once again fake ‘silver’ in the form of shares was manipulating it’s real value down (Memoirs of Popular Delusions discusses banks roles in crashing economies by flooding them with fake value paper while quietly shipping all the silver out of the country).
Me? I bought one physical bitcoin for a whole $18 many years back. It was all I was prepared to gamble. and being the believer that one should own one’s own wealth I selected to have a physical one I could stuff under a mattress or bury or carry – anything other than letting a bloody bank hold it !
It’s going to take some form in the near future though. Blockchain is the base technology that you’re going to see in everything in the next ten years. It’s like a ‘trust’ chain of encrypted ledger transactions that follows something of digital value around. If they used it in Chile they could get rid of all the fat cat corrupt notaries in the country. I’m sure these types of industries will see it as a threat to business as usual.
Complete nonsense. Read “Attack of the 50 foot Blockchain” by David Gerard.
IRL Blockchains are useless, inefficient, risky and fall into the category of a solution seeking a problem.
In 10 years I predict that there will be NO use examples of Blockchain for anything of value or importance. you may see them in trivial stuff like computer games to keep track of scores or something like that where it does not really matter when it all gets hacked.
By the same token, internet porn and regular spam also need a carbon tax.
Good luck with both of them, Congressman.
Now I seriously doubt that the electrical energy expended on the “mining of bitcons” comes anywhere close to the horrendous amount of electrical energy expended on the per se “mining of social media” via tens-of-millions of PCs interacting with the data storage facilities of Facebook and YouTube.
1) You want to tax bitcoins? You’ll have more success with an import duty on cocaine and heroin.
2) All taxes have already been included in the power bill
3) If bitcoin miners offshore their energy use to places with more affordable power, all the better for them
4) If the US wants to levy a tariff on information, then the rest of the world will return the favour. Hollywood will be the first to suffer.
I was with you until you linked information with Hollywood.
heheh
Yes, I have a hard time understanding why bitcoins would have to pay another tax beyond the carbon taxes that utilities already have to pay. Bitcoin servers are just another customer, right?
yes. we buy our electricity and pay our taxes
However, There are some places that invite us in because they have electricty to sell and no buyers.
Even a few in CA. Imagine build a 2.4 GW hydro project and having only a few customers consuming
a couple of MW.
Trivial to tax bitcoin use, you just have to trace the users. It is typically not anonymous in normal use. There are already companies specifically tracing bitcoin users. Taxation is ongoing. It’s going to get very painful for some people who thought they could get away with tax evasion, Some will be going to jail.
“You could have environmental regulations of what could be used or a tax on the use of the mines that are going into the bitcoin, so that if they have externalities that they’re causing the environment, that they have to pay a tax on that,” he said.
Innumerate, illiterate, and inarticulate….all the ingrediants for a California politician…
oops! ‘ingredients’
my bad
Does anyone know whether this high energy use by Bitcoin is real and how it compares to say, how much energy on-line video games use?
See: THE HARD MATH BEHIND BITCOIN’S GLOBAL WARMING PROBLEM [Dec. 2017]
http://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-global-warming/
Quote: cryptocurrency website Digiconomics said that worldwide bitcoin mining was using more electricity than Serbia. The country.
Steve, from what I read, there are quite a few bit coin miners trying to survive Venezuela’s hyper-inflation, and the government is trying to catch them by noting their high power usage. I haven’t seen specific figures, though
I don´t understand why Bitcoins have to be mined.
It looks like a videogame to me.
Wrong
The government is now allowing people to Mine.
venez has one of the lowest costs to produce a bitcoin. around $600 to manufacture one
market value is currently 11K
“I don´t understand why Bitcoins have to be mined.”
Miners create a ledger of transactions: A sends money to B, C send to D, X sends to F etc
To keep them from cheating ( being a bad accountant) the system requires them to do work.
They have to have skin in the game. Pay to play.
That work is solving a puzzle by brute force guessing.
The first miner to solve the puzzle publishes his block or ledger.
The nodes check the block. If the block is valid, then all miners start working
on the next block. Every 10 minutes a block is published.
When you Mine a block ( build a ledger and solve the puzzle) you are allowed
to put one special transaction into the ledger:
This transaction transfers 12.5 BTC to yourself.
In 2020 this reward will halve to 6.25 BTC.
The halving continues until 2140 when all 21 Million bitcoin will be distributed.
Then Miners will live off transaction fees
Thanks for your kind reply
Steve Mosher, Feb 17 @ur momisugly 9:13
Not sure what you’re saying is wrong:
From news.com.com.au, Dec 15, 2017:
Authorities have largely permitted trading of bitcoin in Venezuela, though they have heavily fined and detained people who use computers to earn bitcoins by auditing online cryptocurrency transactions. Such “mining” operations use immense amounts of electricity, which is heavily subsidised in Venezuela — meaning the state essentially winds up paying for the process.
(I did not put a direct link above because Firefox advises me that the site is insecure.)
From what I’ve read it appears that video gaming uses much, much more power.
By design the cost of mining must increase as the benefit of mining increases as the price of the proof-of-work crypto-currency increases.
By design the earnings are mostly spent doing by definition useless expensive hash computations.
The whole of point of POW is to be costly; it requires:
– specially optimized hardware for fast hash operations
– energy to run it
I think Bill Gates proposed requiring POW in emails to combat spam.
Not bill gates.
the system was called hash cash. one of the orgins of bitcoin
For example:
“This is the methodology the Digiconomist website uses to estimate the Bitcoin network’s energy consumption. It assumes that the industry will spend 60 percent of its revenue on electricity and then extrapolates from the current bitcoin price and prevailing electricity prices. It finds that the network is consuming energy at an annual rate of 32TWh.”
From assumption to extrapolation.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consumption-explained/
Would require the output from 3 typical nuclear reactors.
Digieconomist is wrong. Mark bevand and I have been tryin to correct his gross errors.
The cost to operate is NOT A FUNCTION of the revenue, and it is nowhere near 60%
http://blog.zorinaq.com/serious-faults-in-beci/
https://digiconomist.net/re-serious-faults-in-beci
basically.. starting with the Hash rate, which is open for everyone to see and which is central to the issuance of coins, we can work backwards to the number of machines.
There are basically 3 machines on the market. The machines each have a diferent power efficiency
( watts per terahash, or joules per gigahash whichever you like to work with)
Since I know how many of the machines we shipped ( and have a pretty good idea of my competitors
market share) we can estimate the energy consumed with some uncertainty.
Once you have the hashrate and the average power efficiency its easy to calculate the electricty used.
Some uncertainties remain ( around PUE– people in hot regions use some electricty to cool)
Going forward Miners will get faster and faster and more power efficient. By 2020 we will be at 5nm
Thanks for the correction.
32 TWh? 32 billions kWh. Bulk price of electricity is like 3 cents/kWh, so we are talking of 32 billion x 3 cents. 1 billion dollar; you may double or triple that sum, taking into account tax etc.
At this magnitude Bitcoins is supposed to replace Western Union, PayPal, and all alike services.
Western Union: ~5 billions a year.
Paypal: ~10 billions
Nothing to fuss about
But electricity is already taxed, and how would they distinguish electrons used for Bitcoin mining from those used to light ones house?
Perhaps hey should consider taxing the power used to grow pot at home.
But electricity is already taxed, Bingo we have a winner.
Nitpick: the photons are taxed, not the electrons (which are recycled)
Nitpick2. Photons are not real particles, they are an invention of the human mind in order to explain certain observations in experimental results which seemed to be lumpy and therefore contradict the view that electromagnetic radiations are analogue.
Electrons are a real elementary particle.
Photons are NOT.
@ur momisugly The Reverend Badger
Actually we are not that sure about electron, either. The “Standard Model” of particle physics works, but it is called “model” for a reason. Electron just have the same status as photon in it.
Remember that the electron is just another quantum mechanics thing, supposed to be everywhere in the whole universe at the same time (at very low probability, true, but anyway…), and that can be used to “see”things just as if it were a photon (electronic microscope).
Currently, I tend to believe that Bitcoin specifically is the creation of multiple intelligence agencies designed to track illicit money laundering and nefarious activities by certain groups, including rouge states. You believe this was created by a few individuals with Japanese sounding names and remain anomalous, then I think there is a lot of naivety going on.
All a carbon tax on Bitcoin mining would do is is tax a small part of the creation of new bitcoin and that will be rapidly declining because a good chunk of the 21 million Bitcoin that can be created out of thin air, already has been created and sold to new suckers. Now the poor suckers who traded in legit fiat currency of some type for vapour Krypto are going to be left holding the bag. This is musical chairs on steroids. As most things, the people who got in early and got out a month ago will have a large profit but now multiple layers of Govt’s will be hunting them down, not only to tax their capital gains, but to see who and what they were buying or exchanging goods and services with. This will end very badly for many of these people. All krypto currencies are going to be the target of Policia all over the planet, so I am not touching it with a 10 foot pole. Whoever thinks Krypto is going to be some new sort of secret global currency is totally deluded, because it cuts the local and National Govt’s out of the loop on everything, including taxation. Plus, you think the big banks are going to roll over and give up their semi monopoly on the exchange of wealth between willing parties? And Govt’s will just turn a blind eye to all of this and don’t understand what is going on? If you believe Krypto is the future, I think you are in for a very rude awakening.
The only good thing to come out of Krypto is Block Chain. If that can be implemented successfully into more traditional economic models such as legitimate trade and commerce, then perhaps we can rid ourselves of some of the evils and people who plague the planet. And that will be abused too at some point, against us, the legitimate law abiding tax paying citizen. If you want to preserve your Wealth, then Gold and precious ‘things’ are your only hope. As it has been the last 5000 years. At the end of the day, there really isn’t a lot of ‘new’ under the Sun, especially when it comes to money and wealth. Except knowledge…
What I would add to your last few lines is that eventually pot will be legalized. It is only a matter of time so getting in on the ground floor of some very inexpensive companies may be something to look into. But be cautious and research those companies as you would any other investment.
Well there’s no indication that it’s different from how it appears. It seems to me to be a pyramid scheme, but the top of the pyramid is well known.
You have more confidence in the abilities of government investigators than I do but, who knows?
Saw that Kodak has started a block chain program to protect photographers images, which seems a good use.
Bitmark (my friends company) and others are doing the same thing
Who is going to secure these images?
Point of order, Chief. Krypto is Superman’s dog.
I thought it was Super Boy’s dog.
Re: taxation, again?
What about cash?
YESSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!! Another guy who can see it, well done.
SA…….
TO…….
SHI…….
Complete the names of well known electronic companies.
“The Democrats belief system: If it moves, tax it. If it continues to move, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”” – Ronald Reagan
+100
And disaster favours the foolish.
Where do the beautiful come in?
The difference is only obvious in hindsight.
Ironically, there is a “Climate Coin” that promotes itself as the “first carbon zero cryptocurrency in the world” using block-chain. From the white paper it appears your ‘tokens’ do not have any intrinsic value, no where do they mention how ‘tokens’ could be converted back into cash. Looks like a money grab in the name of CO2.
Here is the white paper link (pdf) but careful snooping around the main website as they want to install ‘cookies’.
https://climatecoin.io/uploads/CLIMATECOIN-WHITEPAPER-1.pdf
Most (coins/ICOs) WILL look like a money grab in the name of .
Ther is a reason.
Shouldn’t politicians be taxed for carbon-emissions?
Yeah, all that hot air coming out of their pie holes. No wonder the temps are going up.
Sorry, the logic behind taxing something because it uses “a lot of energy” escapes me. Why pick on bitcoin specifically? Maybe there should be a tax on stupidity.
“Maybe there should be a tax on stupidity.”
If you could monetize that, California itself could wipe out the Federal deficit instantly- and probably put a big dent in World-Wide future obligations as well.
“Maybe there should be a tax on stupidity.””
Here’s a very old joke (XVII century, maybe even before)
The chancellor looks for money (as always), a man proposes:: “sir, let’s tax intelligence; people will self declare intelligent, and be willing to pay to show off”.
Chancellor replies: “I call you exempt”
“Congressman Ro Khanna seems to have an unusual mix of qualities for a Democrat.”
Uh, no. He’s a socialist, which is the base of the Democratic party today.
Fortune favors the bold.
But if it catches on amongst democrat lawmakers, perhaps this is the shove that separates Silicon Valley from the Algoreans.
What’s unusual about a Democrat who wants to raise taxes and give away more OPM?
Can they pay their carbon taxes in bitcoin? 😉 Phony money to solve a phony problem.
You can pay your taxes in bitcoin in Arizona
I still don’t “get” bitcoin. It reminds me of the pyramid parties that use to pop up in the 70’s where once all the attendees were fleeced it was announced the police were mysteriously ‘on the way’ and the last ones into the scam were left out in the cold as everyone quickly departed.
The work that they perform to mine, the security and most importantly, the anonymity is the value. It’s a commodity outside government control.
BTC isn’t “electronic cash”: you can’t keep your wallet hidden.
It’s like banking without a designated actor being the bank.
It’s pseudonymous, everything is exposed for the world to see, except real identities of actors, who can be revealed by trading BTC and real world goods (if you pay a pizza in BTC and give your address, if you buy BTC with EUR, etc.).
Not anonymous. (many bitcoin users doing illegal things already traced, some in jail)
Security a fallacy. (many hacks, lost coins, stolen coins, people have even killed themselves over it)
Not out side government control (trivial for government to ban e.g. existing financial institutions from dealing with cryptocurrency exchanges or to require citizens to pay taxes on bitcoin /crypto holdings)
Grant is just spewing out the standard phrases the bitcoin shills throw about like confetti. No substance to them at all.
“Security” here is a property of the blockchain. Not your particular computer.
This is one of the biggest worry to me. Computer security and getting stuff right is so difficult. The Pentagon, CIA and NSA do not get it right (I won’t even mention the joke the FBI became).
I was blissfully unaware of this persons existence till now, but electricity is already taxed, everywhere.
I have always been against more taxes of any kind. However. We need a tax on stupidity.
Bruce Cobb,
I see that you said it first! Dittos.
As others say above; He’s a Democrat.
“Tax it”. Is their mantra.
As a now professional Parasite, he wants his cut.
Theft by force is the best course.
Just ask anyone of our “progressive comrades”.
Tax while the goose is still golden. Hurry – we’re approaching a tipping point.
IMO the bitminers’ hardware will be turned to data harvesting when bitcoins are not worth the media they’re written on. And it will be ferocious.
BTC Miners do one thing. The circuit is pure logic. It cannot do anything but SHA-256
HHGTTG Shoe Event Horizon.
Here we see the compacted layer of asic circuit boards….