Is Climate Chaotic or Cyclical? The Transition from Uniformitarianism to Catastrophism.

Guest opinion: Dr. Tim Ball

In the 1990s a clear divide existed between the east (the Soviet Union and China) who said climate change is cyclical and the west (the US and Europe) who believed it was chaotic. The former argued that all we need to do is determine the major cycles and how they interact to start understanding and to predict. The latter that climate was chaotic as expressed in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Third Assessment Report and predictions were not possible.

In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.

Chaos theory was the source of the Lorenz based story prevalent at the time that if a butterfly flaps its wings in Japan it arrives as a storm in California many days later.

The media reported the divide as a political difference, a product of the Cold war. In fact, the divide continues with Russia and China consistently offering different views and challenging more extreme claims in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Reports. Of course, as long as they are listed as “developing nations,” they always vote for a transfer of wealth as set out in the Kyoto Protocol and its replacement, the Green Climate Fund.

My views on the dichotomy began to formulate earlier from empirical evidence. Research and analysis of data quantified from the Hudson’s Bay Company weather diaries and instrumental records detected a very strong 22-year drought cycle in the middle latitude record for York Factory on Hudson Bay. I included the results in my doctoral thesis (1982) against the advice of my supervisor. He did not disagree with my work; he just thought it was too controversial for my committee to accept. I left it in, and it triggered an interesting experience. The chairman of the committee, Professor C. G. Smith[1], who studied historical precipitation records, especially those of the Radcliffe Observatory, did something unusual. After all the committee members asked their questions, he asked them to agree to tell me I had passed so we could then partake in an unfettered discussion about the issue of cycles.

Part of the discussion included the early work on tree rings in North America, particularly the work of A.E. Douglass, founder of the Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research at the University of Arizona in 1937. As that biography notes,

“He discovered a correlation between tree rings and the sunspot cycle.”

His work became the basis of dendrochronology, which triggered work in tree ring sequences as a proxy indicator for a wide range of correlations. Of course, correlation does not mean cause and effect, but it does trigger searches for potential mechanisms.

One graph (Figure 1) illustrates the type of work produced and shows the correlation between the 22-year sunspot cycle and drought periods across the Great Plains as deduced from tree rings.

clip_image001

Figure 1

It is interesting because when I used the graph in presentations to western North American farmers I did not add to it but simply noted that the sequence anticipated a drought in the late 1980s and that is precisely what occurred. Also notice the decline in sunspot numbers associated with the Dalton Minimum from 1790 to 1830. It is tempting to assume the different durations of droughts, one longer from circa 1820 and the other shorter from approximately 1840 was a result of the reduction in sunspot numbers.

Before we organized the conference on the impact of the 1815 volcanic eruption of Tambora, it was assumed the eruption caused the decline in global temperature of the period. While preparing for the conference, it became apparent to myself and fellow organizers, Cynthia Wilson and Richard Harington, that global temperatures were already in decline and a likely explanation was the decline in sunspot numbers. Remember, this was pre-Svensmark’s cosmic theory. Indeed, the idea of even a correlation between sunspots and temperature was just gaining wider legitimacy from the work of John Eddy. As a result, we invited him to be the keynote speaker at the conference. The question that emerged during the conference was how would the impact of Tambora change if global temperatures were rising at the time. The same questions were asked the impact on precipitation patterns, especially droughts. One of my contributions to the symposium was to detail the severe drought in Central Canada from approximately 1816 to 1819. I will return to the significance of these observations later.

Two other experiences reinforced my views on the cyclical versus the chaos controversy. The first occurred when I was invited by the editors to submit a chapter to the book Climate Since A.D. 1500. The editors had each chapter author review another author’s chapter. I worked with Ye. P. Borisenkov, the Soviet historical climatologist, whose chapter “Documentary Evidence from the U.S.S.R” used the Russian Chronicles among other sources. Borisenkov’s work was recognized as a major contribution to the current claims of a cooling over the next few decades by Dr. Abdussamatov.

The second event occurred when I gave a paper at the 1988 Annual Geophysical Society General Assembly in Bologna, Italy that focused on evidence for climate change from historical records. This was among the earliest public presentations of climate research from the vast potential of the Vatican archives. It was also an early public presentation of the remarkable resources from China. In both the Russian and Chinese connections I learned that the leaders, Russian Czars, and Chinese Emperors, kept weather and crop journals for a very practical reason. They needed to prepare for the social unrest that inevitably followed crop failures.

Through the work with Borisenkov, I became aware of Nikolai Kondratieff (variously Kondratiev) and his theory of climate and economic cycles. It was this focus on food production, especially subsistence crops like cereal grains, which led to the first practical application of the cyclical approach in Russia. Between 1919 and 1921 Kondratieff plotted the relationship between grain production and drought and produced the K-Cycle. It was a predictive tool based on the idea that all economies and civilizations exist based on their ability to feed themselves. An important idea that led to my dictum that, there are no farms in the cities, but there are no cities without farms. In the west, the most common application of Kondratieff and other climate cycles are in the financial markets. It is summarized in books such as “Climate: The Key to Understanding Business Cycles.” I also learned that other Russian climatologists were doing much better, more open, and innovative work, such as the work on energy balance of Mikhail Budyko.

I later learned more about Chinese climatology when working with Chinese climatologists. The Chinese realized that to improve their economy and achieve greater control required increased food production. They realized, to maintain large work forces in urban areas you required vastly improved food production. I learned very early in studying history that an Agricultural Revolution preceded the Industrial Revolution. The Chinese were already triple–cropping in many parts of southern China but there was vast potential in the north-eastern region. They were charged with working with Canadian climatologists and agronomists to study how and why Canadian farmers were so successful in crop production in cold climates.

Parallel to these different studies and analyses of climate, the philosophical views of the pattern of evolution were changing. In the west the biblical view of Neptunism, the pre-and post-flood worlds was replaced by Uniformitarianism. This was generally adapted and adopted as the notion that change is very gradual over long periods of time. I believe it is a major reason why the unchanging nature of the Sun/Earth relationship remained the view. This persisted, even though Croll and others culminating in the work of Milankovitch, showed it was constantly changing.

The two notions crossed paths in 1960 when MIT meteorologist and computer modeler, Edward Lorenz, introduced the aforementioned butterfly, with its wider application as the Chaos Theory. This view seemed to resurrect and confirm the 19th century claims of Cuvier that changes occurred triggered by extreme events or catastrophes. In the 20th century, Stephen Jay Gould combined the two views with what he called punctuated-equilibrium. This proposed that gradual change was periodically interrupted by catastrophic events. It certainly seems to fit events like the eruption of Tambora, but also applies to events like the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs.

These discussions raised important questions about the difference between equilibrium and steady–state. This included the apparent resilience of the atmosphere to catastrophic events and the inevitable role of feedbacks, questions, and challenges still central to climate research and pushed aside by the singular focus of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

Right now, the easterners, particularly people like Abdussamatov and Usoskin, are making better predictions about the coming cooling trend as they follow the solar cycles than the IPCC, now represented by the IPCC. Of course, there are some of us in the west who believe the Russians are closer to reality. Consider the comments by Joe Bastardi on the trend in this video. But why listen to him? He is one of those deniers. Joe can use my argument that those who call us deniers and are mostly the chaos believers need to be right to explain why their forecasts, both weather, and climate, are so wrong. Is it possible that Joe and all us deniers will become part of the Russian collusion investigation?


[1] Craddock, J. M., and C. G. Smith (1978), An investigation into rainfall recording at Oxford, Meteorol. Mag., 107, 257–271.

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kyle_fouro
November 25, 2017 12:49 pm

Berkeley Earth is one more $150,000 Koch check away from ensuring that we’ll never know the truth about climate variability

M Seward
Reply to  kyle_fouro
November 25, 2017 3:43 pm

Berkeley Earth and UEA and GISS an BOM and all the others are just so many funding cheques away from ensuring the Russians and the Chinese end up using the imbecility of left-liberal ‘democracy’ in its CAGW phobic response to the real world to argue, probably successfully I fear, that it is time for a new world order, theirs.

The limp wristed antics of that great presidential ponce, Buckpass Obama, were just a foretaste of the shift tthat is now unfolding in the geo-military balance. The CAGW bubble bursting will signal an inglorious and humiliating end to western dominance, IMO.

Like in most things it is typically the abject failure of the old order that allows a new order to evolve and develop. It is not so much the objective superiority of the new as the manifest comparative inferiority of the old that enables and rewards change. The short term, change driving, evolutionary reward coms not in the creation of new ‘wealth’ but in the capture of old wealth from the old regime.

I theink the above sets out the true nature and scale of the imbecility of the alarmists however being ‘useful idiots’ (at best) such considerations fly way above their consciousness.

Reply to  M Seward
November 25, 2017 11:37 pm

Excellent points…the Chinese are using the CAGW myth as a weapon of mass destruction.

JJM Gommers
November 25, 2017 12:53 pm

Yes, I think so, collusion.!!

November 25, 2017 1:11 pm

Why shouldn’t it be chaotic with some cyclical drivers.

Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 1:53 pm

The Sun sets and rises every day.
The Earth rotates around the Sun at a tilt, giving us the seasons of the year.
Cyclic events.
Al Gore visits someplace and opens his mouth.
Chaos.
(Sorry 😎

Reply to  Gjunga Din
November 25, 2017 2:03 pm

Well, that was me, “Gunga Din”, not “Gjunga Din”.
I just watched the Buckeyes beat Michigan while enjoying some adult beverages and the result was chaos on my keyboard.
The unexpected can not be predicted.

Reply to  Gjunga Din
November 25, 2017 2:18 pm

I did it again, and on another post as well!
(Time for my nap.)

D B H
Reply to  Gjunga Din
November 25, 2017 2:52 pm

.you made my day with that last quip, keep it up.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Gjunga Din
November 25, 2017 6:04 pm

Now that your typo-name passed auto-mod you can use it too. We’ll know it’s your fun side talking.

AndyG55
Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 2:11 pm

I prefer to look at it the other way around

Cyclic, with chaotic interference.and “events” (eg El Ninos, volcanoes etc)

Certainly, it is NOT linear !!

Pop Piasa
Reply to  AndyG55
November 25, 2017 6:12 pm

My take too. I’m not so sure that ENSO can be considered as much chaotic as it should be considered an indicator of the interplay of multiple oceanic and atmospheric cycles of cause and effect, rather than temporally regulated oscillations.

Gabro
Reply to  AndyG55
November 25, 2017 6:19 pm

ENSO isn’t chaotic. Precisely when El Nino will return can’t be predicted, but that it will do so within a certain time frame is.

AndyG55
Reply to  AndyG55
November 25, 2017 9:25 pm

The timing is somewhat chaotic..

Part of the unknown threshold issue.

Deaf Ear to Authority
Reply to  AndyG55
November 26, 2017 9:01 am

ITS LINEAR LINEAR LINEAR. All the reports in the media talk about linear trends and even climate scientists analyse their data for linear trends. It must be so if the experts do that.

Reply to  chaamjamal
November 25, 2017 2:23 pm

I meant that the properties of the cycle are chaotic

goldminor
Reply to  chaamjamal
November 25, 2017 3:20 pm

I wonder. Is it the wind that is the main inducer of the chaos, with ocean behavior second? I get the sense of strong cyclical components as I view long term temp graphs, and other graphs.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  chaamjamal
November 25, 2017 6:28 pm

Goldminor
What causes the wind to do what it does? It appears to me to be largely driven by the SSTs. We seem to be in a vicious circle here.

el gordo
Reply to  chaamjamal
November 25, 2017 6:46 pm

Its complex, but not chaotic.

We can predict when some of the oscillations slot into place, which gives us the edge, all we need now is a super computer to go back in time and solve the riddle.

ENSO remains an enigma.

Gabro
November 25, 2017 1:19 pm

That climate is cyclical at at least some time frames is no longer controversial, nor has it been since the general acceptance of Milankovitch cycles after 1976. Given your advisor’s fears, however, maybe not at the short time frame of solar cycles.

I can recall when the correlation among sunspot cycles, snowshoe hares and Canadian lynx populations was used as an example of spurious, coincidental correlation without causation. Now I’m not so sure it’s an accident.

Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 2:27 pm

Even the solar cycle is chaotic. I suspect that all of nature is chaotic.
https://ssrn.com/abstract=2767274

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 2:38 pm

Jamal,

That part of solar activity which might be describable as chaotic probably results from cycles.

The other parts, which are indubitably cyclic, are just more detectable in the noise.

Both detectably cyclical and apparently chaotic solar behavior of course will change over time, as our star progresses along its main sequence toward red giantness.

Reply to  Gabro
November 27, 2017 8:15 pm

The hare-lynx oscillation is the classic case of a prey-predator interaction originally studied by Lotka almost 100 years ago. It certainly hasn’t been thought of as a coincidental correlation, it’s due to competing negative and positive feedback with delay.

November 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Earth’s evolution is LINEAR

Cycles only exist in terms of 1 we rotate pretty regularly, and 2 orbit the sun regularly.

if we didn’t there would be no cycles

No two “cycles” will ever be the same because of linear evolution. Only the appearance of cycles at a high level. Once you get to detail and down closer to the mirco there are NO real cycles

You only have cycles if you lower resolution of information low enough to produce the appearance of cycles

Joel O’Bryan
Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 25, 2017 7:22 pm

You are getting more off-balanced with each post Mark.
Nature at all scales is nothing but cycles, nonlinearity, and fractals.

Joel O’Bryan
Reply to  Joel O’Bryan
November 25, 2017 7:25 pm

Man only linearizes short series in order to study them with our hard wired predictive brain.
We have a brain evolved to see and decipher immediate short term patterns necessary for immediate survival. We linearize and extrapolate. That serves us well because tomorrow will likely look like today. It serves us poorly on longer term scales.

el gordo
Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 25, 2017 11:35 pm

So the Gleissberg cycle is an urban myth?

Reply to  el gordo
November 26, 2017 4:23 am

Precisely the Gleissberg solar cycle is a scientific myth. No clear 77-87 periodicity can be detected in solar activity for the past 2000 years.

November 25, 2017 1:20 pm

Black hole ate my post

earth’s evolution is linear, no there are no cycles, only dominant influences from out orbit and rotation, but when you go up in resolution of data, you clearly see there are no cycles

Gabro
Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 25, 2017 1:34 pm

Cycles exist at every scale of time and data resolution. They’re so obvious, that when a predicted peak or trough is missing, there must be an explanation. When geologists look, they find them.

Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 25, 2017 1:46 pm

Orbit and rotation are cyclical.

Gabro
Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 1:49 pm

As is the path of the sun around the barycenter of our galaxy.

Gabro
Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 1:51 pm

And fluctuations in outputs of our local, variable star.

Curious George
Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 6:18 pm

Gabro – do you believe that the International Space Station orbits the barycenter of the Earth-Moon system?

Gabro
Reply to  son of mulder
November 25, 2017 6:23 pm

The ISS is in low Earth orbit, so, no. It orbits the barycenter of the center of its mass and Earth’s. The moon, the sun, planets, other solar system bodies have negligible effect.

Why do you ask?

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  son of mulder
November 26, 2017 3:35 am

Curious G

What an interesting question! I think the International Space Station orbits the Earth’s gravitational centre within a few cm with its orbit influenced by a tidal effect of the moon, sun and large planets. This tidal influence would be detectable as a change in altitude above the surface of the Earth.

If the influence of gravity and tidal effects were not like this, there would not be any Le grange Points. And there are.

November 25, 2017 1:21 pm

Cycles are just our concept to describe a procession that beings around seemingly cyclical events

Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 25, 2017 1:21 pm

*brings

mikesmith
Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
November 26, 2017 1:14 pm

So Mark is saying that cycles is the word we use to describe a process that causes cycles (“cyclical events”), which is awfully close to saying that cycles is the word we use for cycles. And this constitutes an explanation for why cycles do not really exist?

u.k.(us)
November 25, 2017 1:29 pm

It’s been way too long since someone said “it’s the sun, stupid”, so there you have it.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  u.k.(us)
November 25, 2017 6:41 pm

It’s certainly not the CO2, but the sun is only for starters. Then comes the heat storage and release of the oceans and the actions of H2O in the atmosphere as attracted by aerosols and energized by CR flux.

Reply to  u.k.(us)
November 26, 2017 8:39 pm

Was that comment chaotic or cyclical?

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  davidgmillsatty
November 27, 2017 10:54 am

If we see it posted again, we’ll know it’s cyclical.

Gabro
November 25, 2017 1:32 pm

China has surely succeeded in growing grain in Manchuria.

Latitude
November 25, 2017 1:33 pm

possibly…it only looks like a lot of chaos……because there’s so many cycles going on

Gabro
Reply to  Latitude
November 25, 2017 1:35 pm

There are, but they don’t all counteract or cancel each other out. Separating them out however can be messy.

AndyG55
Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 2:13 pm

Also, some are “build and release” with unknown/variable threshold of release…. depending on whatever.

Latitude
Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 2:52 pm

we don’t even know the smallest fractions of how many cycles there are or aren’t….

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 6:49 pm

Latitude,

True, but we do know some of them, including those with big, obvious effects.

Rick C PE
Reply to  Latitude
November 25, 2017 5:34 pm

or…we live in a world of ‘irregular cycles’ – something of an oxymoron, I’ll admit. With enough irregularity even genuine cycles can appear chaotic and certainly make predictions problematic.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Rick C PE
November 25, 2017 6:47 pm

Perhaps a climate laxative once every season. A high colonic for the jet stream.
(for anyone with Asperger’s that was /sarc)

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  Rick C PE
November 26, 2017 3:51 am

Rick C

What we see are the results of causes with visible effects.

We might have ten thousand years of cyclical effects with a combination of causes, then, suddenly, a different combined effect.

Above are many comments in which the meaning of ‘chaotic’ is thought to be ‘random’. Chaotic doesn’t mean ‘non-cyclical’ and it doesn’t mean ‘unpredictable’. It means ‘hard to predict’.

The mathematician David Garcia-Andrade told me that events that superficially appear to be random (not chaotic) will, if examined closely, be shown to have an underlying pattern which he expressed as being ‘of a lower order’ of organisation. Looking carefully at the lower order one would identify some underlying randomness that disrupted it. Looking into that apparent randomness would once again identify a lower order of organisation within the ‘randomness’. And so on.

I am sure others have expressed this better than I can. Randomness is to us mere failure to understand all the causes. Chaos is hard to predict, not unpredictable. Cycles are generalizations and very convenient for predicting things such as the climate, but not the weather. 🙂

Reply to  Latitude
November 26, 2017 1:45 am

Gabro

“True, but we do know some of them”

Isn’t a little knowledge dangerous?

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  HotScot
November 27, 2017 10:59 am

“A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring…”

See below for the full poem by Alexander Pope.

https://www.poetsgraves.co.uk/Classic%20Poems/Pope/a_little_learning.htm

Reply to  HotScot
November 27, 2017 2:49 pm

D. J. Hawkins

Thank you for that, my ignorance is revealed, again, as I had never seen, nor sought to establish the source of that simple saying.

I will keep it as close as I keep Kipling’s ‘Six Honest Serving Men’, which I struggle to use as well as I should.

Reply to  HotScot
November 27, 2017 3:00 pm

D. J. Hawkins

And you led me to another.

Know Thyself, also by Alexander Pope.

“With too much knowledge for the Sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the Stoic’s pride,”

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  HotScot
November 27, 2017 4:17 pm

The best thing in life is, each day, to learn something new.

The next best thing in life is, each day, to help someone else learn something new.

Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
November 27, 2017 5:32 pm

D. J. Hawkins

Every day’s a schoolday.

Today I learned a little poetry. I also taught my daughter the difference between an engineering screw thread and a woodscrew thread.

I also reminded myself that detail makes a difference.

Reply to  Latitude
November 26, 2017 5:45 am

This reminds me of an experience with a large number of simple oscillators summed in a simple isolation amplifier. They all drifted in time with both amplitude and frequency variations. Beat frequencies after beat frequencies all constantly varying over time right along with the fundamentals. In case you wonder, it was an early experiment in trying to synchronize remote data collection devices, each with their own “clock”. Looking back, you could have called it chaotic but knowing the inputs it was not.

Paul Linsay
November 25, 2017 1:43 pm

There is no real conflict between a description of climate as a periodic system versus one that is chaotic. Chaotic systems can be described as the “sum” of an infinite number of unstable periodic orbits. The shortest period orbits are the most stable while long period orbits are more unstable becoming ever more unstable with increasing periods. Most of the time the system will move in the vicinity of the least unstable orbits, orbits with the shortest period, but then wander off and track a longer period and more unstable orbit before eventually wandering back to one of the more stable orbits. For example, several unstable periodic orbits for the Lorenz attractor are plotted in Figures 1, 3, 6, 7, and 8 of

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/49072/no3314.pdf?sequence=2

Figures 7 and 8 also demonstrate why taking statistical averages in a chaotic system can be a problem. The system can get “stuck” in a piece of phase space for quite a while before moving on and sampling the rest of the allowed phase space.

Steve C
Reply to  Paul Linsay
November 25, 2017 3:24 pm

I agree there’s no real conflict, but on different grounds. From my rather mechanical POV, the chaotic component of climate – or anything else we’re measuring – is a given, at all scales from below Brownian motion to the occasional star going nova. There’s no such thing as a stable situation, you’ll always find noise in some form if you “turn it up” far enough. Let that statistically random noise interact with resonant elements, and those elements will resonate, more or less as it falls. Periodicities will appear, and interact.

The nearest analogy I can think of is the sound of a bell, as it decays to silence after the energy’s been hammered into it. (The BBC Remembrance broadcasts are great for this, as there is a two minute silence for the sound to decay into.) If you listen carefully, you can hear individual “voices” of the bell each becoming louder and softer, as the energy passes between them as it dissipates. Every so often the phases line up just right, and the timbre changes, or most of the energy suddenly collapses into one brief, strong tone before re-dispersing. Fourier analysing short sections of the sound in a sound editor confirms the flux of energy between the different resonances.

In the case of the Earth, we have very obvious cycles of energy input on daily and annual scales, lunar orbit variations, the 22ish, 60ish, 200ish, 1000ish (etc) -year “voices” contribute, as must any number of others. But I think we’re going to need a much longer “recording” than we’ve got so far – a few millennia, at least – before we can start to make predictions regarding which cycle should be getting stronger over the next few years, decades, centuries.

And I love the Stadium Wave (in climate, at anyrate).

ferdberple
Reply to  Steve C
November 25, 2017 5:42 pm

great example. the height of the ocean tides is a result of resonance. gravity simply sets the water in motion.

as a result you can not use gravity to calculate tide heights. even though it is. the driver in climate terms.

rd50
November 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Nothing new. Climate change from biblical time well described here, as well as human consequences.
Full article available below, no need for CO2.
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/11/e1700954?utm_campaign=toc_advances_2017-11-24&et_rid=317830289&et_cid=1684726

jIM a
November 25, 2017 1:53 pm

Mark sez-
“there are no cycles, only dominant influences from out orbit and rotation, but when you go up in resolution of data, you clearly see there are no cycles.
Cycles are just our concept to describe a procession that beings around seemingly cyclical events”

I see. Like our orbits/ rotation, the Sun’s rotation, throw in nearby planets.. All pretty predictable. And the combination of those, in or out of sync cause that linear evolution.

Cosmos to Earth: “Your Cycles are all belong us!”
Well, I’ll just scratch my head and shrug.

November 25, 2017 2:20 pm

What we know:
– Current temperature data show that there is quasi-periodic cycle of 60+ years
– CET temperature peaked around 1730
– Solar grand minima are associated with notable drop in contemporaneous temperature.
Using these three factors it is possible to give estimate of a possible near future temperature trends
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NH-GM.gif

tony mcleod
Reply to  vukcevic
November 25, 2017 9:17 pm

All heading south except the thin blue one. Thats a bit odd.

AndyG55
Reply to  tony mcleod
November 25, 2017 9:23 pm

That’s because that line has zero resemblance to reality.

Its a fabrication.

Reply to  tony mcleod
November 26, 2017 4:45 am

Hi there
The leap in the ‘thin blue line’ may or may not be correct, but in the either case it looks to be an outlier; if real it is perhaps due to the strong elNino, with a precedent set in the mid 1870s, again if the data can be taken as reliable. .

tony mcleod
Reply to  tony mcleod
November 26, 2017 11:39 am

vukcevic
“it looks to be an outlier”

As you point out, there are so many affects are pushing it in the other direction. Is that not the most interesting thing about the plot?

How much more outlying before one has to stop and say that’s more than a bit odd?

Reply to  vukcevic
November 26, 2017 4:31 am

Vuk, you’ll have to keep moving that grand minimum effect rightward. No grand solar minimum expected before 2500 AD. SC25 will likely be similar to SC24, and SC26 should be like SC23, with higher activity. We are just going through a centennial minimum.

Reply to  Javier
November 26, 2017 9:53 am

hi Xavier
The Maunder minimum started around 1650 and lasted about 50 years; it was directly observed with written records available, therefore there is a little if any doubt that it did happen.
From the C14 and 10Be proxies it could be concluded that similar minima might have happened in the past, but proxies are just that ‘proxies’ sometimes they are correct while some other times may be not.
I would doubt that the solar Grand Minima periodicity could be determined from proxies to any degree of accuracy, unless they are somehow linked to the orbital resonances within solar system, as some authors have claimed to be the case, but dismissed by the current crop of the solar scientists.
My own calculations based on the above mentioned ‘resonances’ suggest that the next GM would be centred on around 2180 (giving periodicity of 500y), but that may be no better than anyone else’s guess.

Reply to  vukcevic
November 26, 2017 2:15 pm

It is Javier, Vukcevic. In most cases the X is just the old way of writing the J in ancient Spanish but the sound is supposed to be as the modern Spanish J. That’s why Texas in modern Spanish is Tejas, and Don Quixote is Don Quijote.

I would bet you a nice dinner that there won’t be any grand solar minimum either around 2180, but I don’t think I’ll be hungry so late. Clearly we see this issue very differently. For a start 23 of the 25 grand solar minima recognized in solar proxies fall at the lows of the Bray and Eddy solar cycles, so the chances of having one outside them are quite small.
comment image

Yogi Bear
Reply to  Javier
November 26, 2017 10:28 am

“No grand solar minimum expected before 2500 AD”

You don’t actually know that for sure.

Reply to  Yogi Bear
November 26, 2017 2:15 pm

I am pretty sure that is what I expect.

Reply to  Javier
November 26, 2017 3:00 pm

Javier, sorry about ‘J’ and ‘X’, I blame my spell checker since I often look at French webpages, it appears that name Xavier is relatively common in parts of France.

Reply to  vukcevic
November 26, 2017 3:20 pm

No problem. Yes you can find the name both ways. In Spanish is usually with J, while in French, Basque, and Catalan with X (and sometimes as Xabier). The X->J evolution took place only in Spanish. Languages are interesting things.

The name’s origin is the name of a city and castle, the birthplace of St. Francis of Javier (St. Francis Xavier), son of the castle’s seneschal that became co-founder of the Company of Jesus. He made the name famous, so in origin it is a religious name after a saint as many other names.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-livexH5XCrc/TaHaGoz7oRI/AAAAAAAAAn4/ymcy4ukyfv4/s1600/Javier%2Bmapa1.jpg

The name evolved from Etxeberria (new house in Basque) -> Xabier -> Xavier -> Javier.

Yogi Bear
Reply to  Javier
November 27, 2017 6:12 pm

“I am pretty sure that is what I expect.”

I am pretty sure that you have cherry picked the solar minima on your above chart according to your preferred cycle lengths, and have ignored several other similar minima. So I would take what you expect with a pinch of salt.

Reply to  Yogi Bear
November 28, 2017 2:50 am

I am pretty sure that you have cherry picked the solar minima on your above chart according to your preferred cycle lengths, and have ignored several other similar minima.

You are pretty surely wrong. I didn’t make the list. It is published as it is in the table from the following source and references: 1-listed in Usoskin et al. (2007); 2-listed in Inceoglu et al. (2015); 3-listed in Usoskin et al. (2016). Source: I.G. Usoskin, 2017. Living Rev. Sol. Phys. 14, 3. (Open and available).

And I didn’t pick the periodicities. Both the ~1000 year cycle and the ~2400 year cycle are all over the literature.

The list as is published shows a clear coincidence. 15 of 25 GSM are taking place at X,300 ± 80 years BP, (with the X being every millennium, and the spread the average spread). That is what causes the ~1000 year peak in frequency analysis.

The same holds true for the 9 GSM that coincide with the lows of the ~ 2,400-year cycle. This analysis has already been published. GSM have a significantly higher chance than random of falling at the lows of the ~ 2400 year cycle (Usoskin et al., 2016).
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I would take what you expect with a pinch of salt.

So you should. That’s what means being skeptic. Check the bibliography and evidence yourself and let’s see what you come up with. People should be convinced by evidence, not by what other people say. Conversely I also don’t care what you believe or not.

John V. Wright
November 25, 2017 2:31 pm

Javier’s obliquity cartoon of some months past show one of those cycles in action, with its influence on global temperature punctuated by solar minima and large-scale natural events. Some neat historical way markers in there too.

Jer0me
November 25, 2017 2:48 pm

To quote a previously popular meme:

“Why not both?”

Tom Halla
Reply to  Jer0me
November 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Yeah, I have seen some chaotic formulas that are cyclical for some values of input, like the predator/prey relationship.

November 25, 2017 2:55 pm

The climate is not chaotic, or even cyclical, but instead is the result a deterministic response to stimulus whose average response is quantified by a well defined transfer function. The transition from one state to another in response to a change in stimulus takes a chaotic path and the other word for this path is weather.

The apparent periodic behavior is a consequence of a causal response to periodic stimulus. Day/night, summer/winter, solar cycles, orbital and axial changes are all examples of periodic or quasi periodic stimulus. Notice that the Sun is involved in all of them.

Clyde Spencer
November 25, 2017 3:04 pm

Tim,

Geology has a storied history of principals advocating their pet hypothesis to the exclusion of all others. After long investigation and discussion, many of these have been found to not be exclusive. That is, under some conditions, one process may dominate, and under other conditions or at different times, the other process may dominate. Sometimes, there is evidence that both are at work simultaneously. Trying to simplify things to a single process has been demonstrated frequently to be the wrong approach. That is why geologists used to be required to read Chamberlain’s Method of Multiple Working Hypotheses as undergraduates. This is a lesson that current climatologists seem not to have learned.

Prior to Hutton, the knee-jerk interpretation to something like the Grand Canyon was that it had to have been carved by a catastrophic flood. The genius of Hutton was to consider the potential of slow work over immensely long periods of time (compared to a human time scale). Thus, when considered appropriately, Uniformitarianism is a legitimate, and usually preferred, hypothesis based on Occam’s Razor. That is, “The present is the key to the past,” and one does not have to appeal to infrequent or improbable events for explanations. That is, Uniformitarianism is a competing hypothesis that should be weighed against Catastrophism, where the evidence should not be restricted to that which only supports Catastrophism. In modern geology, it is recognized that either process may be responsible for landforms or geologic features, and it is the task of the geologist to find unbiased evidence for one or the other. Again, this is something that modern climatologists don’t seem to have accepted as a method of operation.

goldminor
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
November 25, 2017 3:31 pm

+10

Jim Heath
November 25, 2017 3:31 pm

If you haven’t figured it out it’s cyclical by now you never will, throw another goat into the volcano.

Lurking
Reply to  Jim Heath
November 25, 2017 5:09 pm

They did that, it didn’t work. Agung erupted anyway.

gbaikie
November 25, 2017 3:53 pm

Earth is mostly ocean, “global climate” is mostly ocean.
Ocean is fluid, vast rivers of oceans are moving at top, at bottom and in the middle, it’s mixing less, it’s mixing more. The winds.
It’s not solid like the land, and land is mostly about global cooling.
When ocean surface cools it can gain heat [lost in the ocean] or add heat to land, which always cools. Land can cool more or less but always cools.

Milton Suarez
November 25, 2017 4:13 pm

Todo es cíclico.Las manchas solares modifica el clima del planeta, pero la causa principal del Calentamiento Global no son las manchas solares.El Calentamiento Global empieza 15 a 20 años antes de fin de siglo y termina en los primeros 15 a 20 años del nuevo siglo.Ya se esta terminando, una señal son las grandes precipitaciones y es SIMPLE, toda el agua que se evaporo por el CALENTAMIENTO y que durante estos últimos 30 años se han mantenido en forma de nubes empiezan a regresar a la tierra en forma de lluvia porque empieza lentamente un ciclo de enfriamiento, el pico mas alto del enfriamiento es a mediados de siglo, luego mejora el clima y desde 2080 TIENE que empezar un NUEVO CALENTAMIENTO GLOBAL.
La causa según mi Teoría es el ascenso del magma que calienta la corteza terrestre y el fondo del mar,porque las GRANDES ERUPCIONES VOLCÁNICAS terrestres y marinas SIEMPRE se dan a fin de siglo.

AndyG55
Reply to  Milton Suarez
November 25, 2017 4:33 pm

So, you are saying that there is major magma flow cycle about 100 years long.

I would love to see actual evidence of that.

Gabro
Reply to  Milton Suarez
November 25, 2017 4:50 pm

VEI 6 eruptions:

Lake Ilopango (535), Huaynaputina (1600), Krakatoa (1883), Santa Maria (1902), Novarupta (1912), Pinatubo (1991).

VEI 7 eruptions:

Taupo (180), Baekdu (946), Samalas (Mount Rinjani) (1257), Tambora (1815).

Close, but no cigar!

1) Mid-century eruptions of Samalas and Baekdu say no.

2) If from 20 years before to 35 years after the turn of a century count, then that’s over half a century (55 years), so the result isn’t statistically significant.

3) Ten eruptions in 1837 years is too small a sample to be meaningful.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
November 25, 2017 5:03 pm

OK, here are 17 other eruptions which have been rated VEI 6 under some standard since 1 AD, ten of which fall outside the turn of the century period:

1808/1809 mystery eruption Southwestern Pacific Ocean 1808, Dec
Grímsvötn and Laki Iceland 1783-85
Long Island (Papua New Guinea) Bismarck Volcanic Arc 1660
Billy Mitchell Bougainville & Solomon Is. 1580
Bárðarbunga Iceland 1477
Kuwae New Hebrides Arc 1452-53
Quilotoa Andes, Northern Volcanic Zone 1280
Katla/Eldgjá eruption Iceland 934-940
Ceboruco Trans-Mexican Volcanic Belt 930
Dakataua Bismarck Volcanic Arc 800
Pago Bismarck Volcanic Arc 710
Mount Churchill eastern Alaska, USA 700
Rabaul Caldera Bismarck Volcanic Arc 540 (est.)
Ilopango Central America Volcanic Arc 450
Ksudach Kamchatka Peninsula 240
Mount Churchill eastern Alaska, USA 60
Ambrym New Hebrides Arc 50

NW sage
November 25, 2017 4:51 pm

Dr Ball:
“there are no farms in the cities, but there are no cities without farms” this statement is true ONLY if transportation to get the farm produce to the city and the wealth back to the farm is economically possible. If distance from farm to city is a measure of the effort required the observed increase in distance between city and farm – over time – is evidence of the relationship. In the modern world that effort is controlled by the availability of energy for that purpose.

Robert of Ottawa
November 25, 2017 4:55 pm

The climate is cyclic; computer models of the climate are, by necessity, chaotic, because of inexact starting conditions and digitized integrations. The whole study area of chaos evolved from the study of numerical accuracy in cmathematical integrations.

jstanley01
November 25, 2017 5:00 pm

“History never repeats itself, but it almost always rhymes.”

gnomish
Reply to  jstanley01
November 25, 2017 8:48 pm

very nice! i’ll pirate that. tnx.

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