Activists think the world will be uninhabitable for our children if the U.S. pulls out of the Paris Climate Accord. For example, via Vox
Quitting the Paris climate agreement would be a moral disgrace
President Trump is selling out our kids to give false hope to coal workers.
…
There is no employment upside to an “America First” retreat from global leadership on one of the few issues that can accurately be described as a potentially existential threat to humankind.
There is only the profound immorality of abdication — of gleefully passing a mounting problem on to our children, and on to the poor.
And one of it’s writers, David Roberts:
https://twitter.com/drvox/status/869997185018077184
Oh, the humanity!
But, the data (er, model) says, essentially “no difference”
Ouch.
Worse, even if we DID stay in it, (and all the other countries too) that .05°C savings is likely to get lost in the noise, since global temperature measurements are rounded. For example, in the USA, NOAA rounds the high and low temperature to the nearest whole degree Fahrenheit (0.55°C, a value over ten times greater than the .05°C savings Paris offers):
From NOAA’s REQUIREMENTS AND STANDARDS FOR NWS CLIMATE OBSERVATIONS:
The observer will round the entered data to whole units Fahrenheit by rounding up all positively signed values between T.5ºF and T.9ºF inclusive, (i.e., + 66.5ºF to 67ºF), and rounding down positively signed values between T.1ºF and T.4ºF, inclusive. For sub-zero temperatures, special attention is given to –T.5ºF values, to round it down. This method is known as ‘round half up asymmetric.’ For all negatively signed values between -T.5ºF and –T.1ºF, inclusive you round down (i.e., -3.5ºF to -3ºF) to nearest integer. For negatively signed values between –T.6ºF and –T.9ºF, inclusive, the data is rounded up (i.e., -10.6ºF to -11ºF) to higher absolute value.
Source: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/directives/sym/pd01013002curr.pdf
For Global temperature, GHCN data for example, NOAA rounds to the nearest tenth of a degree C, (0.1°C) TWICE the value of .05°C savings Paris offers.
Even the best case scenario out of the Paris Climate Accord will get lost in the data rounding.
Note: some minor edits to the title and formatting were made within 5 minutes of publication
Update 6/1/17 8:30AM: Steve Mosher informs me (via one of his usual drive by jerk comments that doesn’t deserve the light of day – he needs to learn netiquette on how to behave) that at Lucia’s site, there’s an essay on rounding and false precision.
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2009/rounding-of-individual-measurements-in-an-average/
He suggests that the 0.05°C decrease in temperature would be detectable, and not lost in the noise. I’m doubtful of his claim, but it’s worth exploring – Anthony
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But Paris is virtue signalling, all the way down.
Me thinks that the Lady’s virtue is in doubt…
Just to clarify, this is not about Paris Hilton.
@Michael – there are many similarities, though, at least to my eye.
First picture I ever saw of Ms. Hilton, I thought “There’s one you take home from the bar, and wake up in the morning with your wallet and good silver gone, and the bank calling to tell you you’ve crashed through your credit limit.”
Very similar to the Paris Agreement…
Observer,
You’ve got it backwards.
Your credit limit would be maxed out by the time you got her back to your place. The good news is penicillin is relatively cheap.
Well, no, real money is changing hands. Our stupid government (Canada) has already handed over billions to the Swiss bank accounts of rich people in poor countries.
Did I say that virtue signalling was free? Only that it was useless for its purported purpose.
There are many divides among skeptics but the clearest one is the refusal to accept the basic mendacity of the climate change agenda culture driven by politics not science.
The article makes a good and valid point on the one hand but on the other at this very critical Paris exit moment these are the weeds to lay in? Skeptics so often surrender the scale and stakes of the moment. Paris is a blueprint for carbon regulation based prison planet nothing less. The entire “non-enforceable” limerick regarding the agreement is a total lie. Yet by inference and trivial distraction the lie becomes truth. So the most basic stakes about the totalitarian nature of the Paris agreement are glossed over, romanticized in leftist circles as I listened today while driving hearing an NPR segment railing a hundred false facts in a few minutes. Paris is important because of the top down totalitarian nature of it for the advocates that are never self described for obvious optic reasons while the dissent babbles on about temperature stats. Can you see the problem with that? Without ever saying it Paris is a yoke on the US or any nations sovereignty and the idiotic resistance wants to talk about almost anything but
the most glaring evils involved.
It’s not the good intentions of the articles specific point itself but it’s illustrative of the
systemic obtuseness of AGW authoritarianism’s hapless, mis-scaled talking points chosen as dissent at the most clutch moments imaginable.
It’s only virtue signaling as the graph above only shows the effects of the Treaty if CO2 has the effects they claim. It is more likely that CO2’s effects are negligible and undetectable in the first place and all three lines will be on top of each other.
why is that “more likely?”
It is more likely because the observations lead to ever lower climate senstivity.
[… all three lines will be on top of each other …] AND the values, i.e. temperature rise, will be substantially lower than the graph currently predicts. That presumes that the temperature measurements do not become even more fraudulent than they are already today via retirement of rural and remote surface stations, not correcting for heat island effects, ocean temperature measurement changes, and ignoring satellite sounding data.
The “lines” will be where the government bureaucrat scientists want them to be — and if they want to show warming, then they will show warming, even if only a few hundredths of a degree each year — they’ve already been doing that — the books have been “cooked” (a good phrase for the coming global warming catastrophe hoax)
Progressives are ready to commit hari-kari, or, at the very least, move to Canada. OK. At the very, very least, take edgy, transgressive selfies of themselves holding a beheaded earth dripping with CO2.
No, LIberalism is all about telling others what to do, never what they are obligated to do.
[snip -wildly off topic -mod]
Saving the world is a responsibility above all else, but with that responsibility there is hereby granted immunity from personal compliance, (i.e. Gore, DeCaprio, etc.) for the purpose of disseminating the propeganda.
propegandaprogressive propagandaSaw that Kathy Griffin shot?
Hold on. We’ve got enough “progressive” lunatics this side of the border already.. Hara-kiri is fine but they can do that your side of the border too.
The folly reduced to one graphic.
Bet this doesn’t get the same media exposure as the Hokey Stick though.
The folly reduced to one graphic.
Bet this doesn’t get the same media exposure as the Hokey Stick though.
Ah, but this one graphic IS a “Hokey Stick” — it’s just not your daddy’s “Hokey Stick”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this graphic use the very models upon which it is based to show that these same models show that Paris is useless? … and that’s the beauty of it? — the models cut their own throats?
Only a 0.05 degrees Celsius projected reduction!
Just shows that we should be doing more. Allocating 5 Trillion/year is not enuf. Mebbe 20 Trillion a year allow my kids to inherit a livable world.
Stop screwing around and advocate spending a quadrillion. Climatism clearly need all the money of the countries of the earth. All of it.
Donald, if you think Paris
does too little, then what is your proposal
that does enough ?
Well, if they “burn” all the money of all the countries on Earth, wouldn’t that produce a dangerous volume of additional CO2? That is, increasing it’s total volume to at least 0.0% (rounded) of the Earth’s atmosphere!!!
Most of the money is digital and therefore not flammable. I also think he missed using the /sarc tag.
No-one says the Paris Agreement is significant with respect to the climate.
This is about the money.
It is significant with respect to the money.
The title of this thread is:
“In one graph, why the #ParisAgreement is useless”
As far as climate goes – absolutely!
The graph referred to proves that conclusively [even if it references a higher sensitivity to CO2 than some think likely].
But –
M “Courtney May 31, 2017 at 3:17 pm
No-one says the Paris Agreement is significant with respect to the climate.
This is about the money.
It is significant with respect to the money.”
Spot on. Exactamente.
It is about the money – and the power that confers on those who have the money.
And the UN – and a lot of governments (elites? Some think so. Oxbridge/Ivy League/Enarques, etc.) may be – seem to think they should have the money.
And we [the ordinary folk] should not.
Auto, noting I will very possibly not be any one of the 500 million folk ‘permitted to serve the global elite’ if they win.
Yet exposing the lie of the CAGW alarmists cryi,g soon is necessary.
I hope this is shared as much as possible.
It’s about power and central planning authority. Paris is built to add enforcement as the world is conditioned to accept it.
Money buys key cooperation but the designers are driven to rule. If Soros and Steyner wanted more money they wouldn’t be buying fleeting political supports, they have an ideological hunger as do many inside leftists circles.
cwon: were you coerced when the US
implemented a cap-and-trade
program to reduce SO2 and NOXs?
did you even notice?
in what way did these programs
reduce your freedom
and liberty?
In an incremental way yes, UN statists always point to minor or smaller scale models of authority grasping to rationalize the next larger incursion. The fake ozone hole “fix” a perfect example.
Paris is being sold as near climate placebo “not enforceable” while the massive legalistic expansion model is buried inside. Not unlike the entire UN Climate Framework or the ACA mechanisms. Socialism as government cancer.
We now have a current example of virtue signaling gone awry:
http://reason.com/archives/2017/05/31/noam-chomskys-venezuela-lesson
We were coerced into paying for those programs. Every product who’s production involved SO2 or NOx became more expensive.
Didn’t spill my wine – quite.
Much amused!
It does seem a little unusual for a world view.
And the graphic seems built on a model [a model? Boo! Hiss!] (emotions surfacing) with a sensitivity that is far above the 0.5-1.5C/doubling currently thought ‘likely’.
And my guess is towards the lower end, very probably under 1C/doubling.
And – of course, to the nearest tenth of one percent, the CO2 in our atmosphere is currently 0.0%.
Zilch [to the nearest tenth of one percent].
Nada.
Zippo.
Sweet Fanny Adams.
Auto
Lomborg was using the warmunists own assumptions do perform a bit of jujitsu. They can’t complain he didn’t give them a fair shake.
Yep, use their models against them!
They emote, attack, shout, accuse, posture, pose, blame…
Not much thinking going on there.
Here’s “my” graph to show Trump: It’s the global average annual GISS temp rise in Fahrenheit from 1880 to 2016. …And even though GISS has probably fudged some of the data. Does it show a Hockey Stick??:
Lomborg’s graph above shows a projected almost 4 degrees Celsius increase from 2000 – 2100.
Guess the warming is simply unstoppable no matter what anyone does.
Lomborg is a lukewarmer, so this comes as no surprise.
Again, the beauty of it is that the models THEMSELVES seem to show this inevitability, when applied to the economics of it all.
You don’t have to accept the temperature projections of the models, in order to appreciate that the models THEMSELVES tell us that Paris will do NOTHING, even if the models were accepted as correct.
Models show warming.
According to models, Paris will do NOTHING.
As someone else already suggested, think of it as martial arts, in this case, Aikido — where the opponent takes a fall but the opponent’s models are not injured.
The graphic above (in the article) shows a 4.5 degree C rise in temp by 2100…?? Not a good thing to show, as it’s probably not going to happen. This one is probably more accurate for predicting the next 100 years, as to the rate of rise in temp…it might get cooler or slightly higher than 60 F…
“The graphic above (in the article) shows a 4.5 degree C rise in temp by 2100…?? Not a good thing to show, as it’s probably not going to happen”
That’s the worst-case scenario model. Other models show a less warming.
Even under those extremely generous estimates, Paris is completely useless. If they used a rational sensitivity to Carbon Dioxide concentration, it would halve or quarter the effect. The basic idea of the argument is “even if you are right, you are still wrong”.
That being said, I do understand your point.
J Philip: this is a
dishonest graph, and
you know why.
Why? Tell that to GISS also…that’s where I got the graph…
This graph has been published many times in WUWT, and I never saw someone state that it is dishonest.
Are you talking about the Y axis which has not been exaggerated as in all the CAGW graphs?
J Philip: your graph is dishonest
because the y-axis
should obviously go up to 10,000 deg F.
The graph goes from -40 F to +120 F. I have experienced 120 F in Blythe, CA, 1955, but never the -40 F like in Oakland, MD January 13, 1912… The range is completely within the continental USA temperature range. I don’t think the USA has had any temperatures up to 10,000 deg F, except maybe in steel mills, or aluminum smelting plants…
Regards, JPP
J Philip – this is not the
range of the global
average temperature, is
it?
J Philip: would you show the
ice ages of the Pleistocene on
your graph, please.
The graphic only goes back to 1880 which is after the Pleistocene, I would think. What graph for temperature would you prefer? You might also want to check the Extreme Weather Page if you are concerned about that (that extreme weather has increased recently – Not.):
https://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/climatic-phenomena-pages/extreme-weather-page/
Regards,
Phil
Frightening! It’s worse than I thought.
Yes, absolutely! Anyone can see the blade running from 1880 to about 1898 and the 2015-2016 shows the extra tape on the shaft’s end. That’s perfectly obvious!
BTW, the stick is resting on it’s side and the blade does not display much of a curvature…
Worse, even if we DID stay in it, (and all the other countries too) that .05°C savings is likely to get….
….adjusted out
adjustments correct for
biases, so that the real changes
in temperature can be sussed
out.
“Adjustments” might be intended to correct for biases, but we don’t know if they do; and, we don’t know that they don’t introduce their own biases.
fire: in what way do you think the adjustments
don’t correct for biases?
do you remember why Muller’s BEST project was formed?
do you remember what they
found?
crackers345 –
I believe the BEST folks found that the biases in the data matched their biases.
crackers, that’s the claim. Unfortunately real science shows that the adjustments are bogus.
crackers, I also remember the BEST work being shredded by those who actually studied the records.
Anyone who would take known bad data over good data, just because the series was longer isn’t a scientist.
firetoice2014: perhaps you don’t understand
the methodology these various groups
are using to correct for biases.
but many of us do understand them. so
it’s your problem to catch up and/or offer
some meaningful thoughts and criticism,
which you haven’t
yet.
MarkW: please cite the science that
“shows that the adjustments are bogus.”
i bet you
can’t.
MarkW: who “shredded” the BEST work?
provide citations please. (to the
literature, not blog posts.)
The Paris climate talks can’t hold a candle to the ‘Meet Russian Women’ ad! Oh, the Russians are bad, we are supposed to hate them all now…
The entire structure of the climate deals are collapsing under their own weight. And the EU is in no danger of roasting to death but in grave danger from a major invasion of hostile foreign people. They better wake up to the real dangers soon.
But did those Russian women raise your… temperature by more than 0.05 degrees C?
I had a friend who browsed the Russian brides for sale, but then realized “Why should I purchase when I could have Elise?”
emsnews :And the foreign people don’t care about climate change. Who says they don’t make a contribution to their new society!
We only have enough fossil fuels to reach about 500ppm CO2 (we would run out before that even because the stuff will be to expensive in competition with needs for petrochemicals and nitrate fertilizers).
We have plenty of fossil fuels. Hitting 500 ppm will be easy without straining supply.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/03/27/double-the-atmospheric-co2-fuggeddaboutit/
David critique this for us and then I can argue my point. I should have linked it before but my cell can be ornery. Willis used figures out fossil fuel carbon at 600gt to 1500gt and then he jacked it up to 1000 to 2000gt. Still no doubling using Bern model and simple exponential model.
Key point: Fossil fuel “reserves” are only a small fraction of the available fossil fuel resources.
no where close to being true –
read Swart and Weaver,
Nature Climate Change
Feb 2012
Yes, and all the while any warming is reduced and less effective with each additional CO2 concentration, while the OBSERVABLE benefits increase continuously!
…and crackers, do you have agree with the main post?
Gary… not to ‘select’ your comment specifically, as there are always several here using the term ‘fossil fuels’… but it is my understanding that a considerable number in that field have determined that the correct term should now be “abiotic” fuels… as the earth appears to be CONTINUALLY producing this stuff. If so, why are persons highly educated in the sciences, still using an obsolete term? Have I been reading incorrect science?
I see the usual rabble of pig ignorant seditious Democrat mayors are vowing to uphold Paris anyway. These guys are properly berserk and seemingly hell bent on cramming their cities full of criminal illegal aliens and turning off the lights so you can’t see what they’re doing.
now it’s “seditious” to try to keep
the climate from changing?
how so?
Off you trot and “try to keep the climate from changing”. Report back here when you have a repeatable result. After that perhaps you’d like to move onto trying to halt the tides by punting the moon out of its orbit.
do you have any science to back
up your ranting? i didn’t
see any.
“now it’s “seditious” to try to keep the climate from changing?”
No, just silly.
It really does fascinate me how liberals are so willing to ignore the law when the law doesn’t support their goals.
While at the same time wanting other people jailed for disagreeing with them. Even when the other people are actually following the law.
A US withdrawal from the Paris Agreement would not in any way prevent or inhibit individuals, communities, states, regions or corporations from taking any actions they believe are in their interests to reduce CO2 emissions, as long as those actions are acceptable under current law.
I see the usual rabble of pig ignorant seditious Democrat mayors are vowing to uphold Paris anyway. These guys are properly berserk and seemingly hell bent on cramming their cities full of criminal illegal aliens and turning off the lights so you can’t see what they’re doing.
Delete duplicate pls mod.
So where in climate science suggest CO2 levels are going to double 4 times up to 2100?
The general accepted 1c rise in global temperatures relates to a doubling of CO2. There is no detectable positive feedback from doubling CO2 and more likely scientific evidence shows it to be negative.
People’s future generation kids are going to think what idiots those were, that believed the alarmists back in the old days, not whether the world was liveable. (Really? Nobody is going to notice the difference between 31c to 32 c, 17c to 18c or -3c to -2c)
These people don’t care about science only self interested greed because most scientists know the Paris Climate agreement will do nothing noticeable.
“Activists think the world will be uninhabitable for our children if the U.S. pulls out of the Paris Climate Accord”
Just shows how many have been brain washed by propaganda pseudoscience alarmist rubbish.
Present temperatures are virtually identical to the early 1970’s so far as I can tell so I say that the increase in CO2 has zero effect in the last 40 years. If the planet is warming, it is no worse than on a straight incline from the little ice age up to about 2000.
It would be more accurate to say that any signal from CO2 is far enough below climate variability and measuring limits as to be undetectable.
There is of course a big difference between theorized and observation. So far the AMO and especially changes in the AMOC explain the difference over the last 40 years. Any sign from unnatural events are undetectable from CO2 using reliable controlled observations.
Considering the lost opportunity cost of the Paris agreement and the zero benefit, it would be depraved to implement. A crime against humanity.
Do the climastrologists seriously expect any sane person to believe that by AD 2100 GASTA will be 4-5 degrees C higher than in AD 1850, when it was 13 or 14 degrees C?
The mean temperature of the Hothouse Cretaceous Period was around 18 degrees C. At that time crocodile relatives basked at the North Pole. Sea level was so high that much of North America was flooded by inland seas stretching from the Gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean.
We are supposed to credit coming out of our current ice age and enter such a world in about eighty years? Yeah, right!
[snip – try getting your point across without being a jerk about it -mod]
Paris was just a beginning. The demands would have become more and more onerous. I don’t know where they thought the money was going to come from though, once western civilizations economies had imploded.
Leftists believe that taxes have no impact on the economy. I’ve even debated some who claimed that high taxes were good for the economy since people would work harder to make up for the extra money government was taking from their pay checks.
What assumptions go into the Lomborg plot? I thought the Paris Agreement was about taking whatever measures are required to keep the global T rise less than 2C. Only article I’ve seen about what those measures would entail is one In Science. These include:
• Reduce net emissions from land use — i.e., from agriculture and deforestation — to zero by 2050, meanwhile feeding a growing world population.
• Phase out sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2030.
• Carbon-neutral air travel within two decades.
• Cities going entirely fossil fuel–free in the next 13 years.
• Develop technologies to remove 5 gigatons of CO2 per year out of the atmosphere by 2050 — nearly double what all the world’s trees and soils already do (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6331/1269)
Is any country going to be able to adhere to these policies? Not even close unless they finally start getting serious about MSR nuclear.
The assumptions are the actual emission reduction agreements of the treaty. If I see it right, he used a CO2 sensitivity of 4.5C/doubling of CO2. The Paris treaty sets emission limits for each of the signatories and arranges for monetary payments. None of what you listed is actually in the agreement. In fact, most of your bullet points would be fanciful in century-level time scales and are laughably absurd on the short time frames you listed. I don’t think the last one is physically possible.
The Paris Agreement was widely ridiculued by many alarmists, most notably Michael Mann himself, because it was ridiculously ineffective. Most notably, China and India are allowed to have significant increases in CO2 emissions through 2030. That’s the problem. People don’t realize what exactly this does and how massive an investment is necessary to produce a result that’s not even a rounding error.
No respected body is prepared to give ‘renewables’ (which includes hydro) anything more than 16% of the primary energy market in the foreseeable future:
The Paris projections a sheer fantasy:
http://www.pleanetwork.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Global-GHG-Scoreboard.jpg
More here: http://euanmearns.com/the-gulf-between-the-paris-climate-agreement-and-energy-projections/
Funny, because natural cooling should really kick in around 2025.
Natural cooling has already kicked in and we are on a slippery slope to a Gleissberg.
Are you really suggesting that temperatures will rise by 4.5C from pre-industrial norms by the end of the century? That seems very high to me.
Hey, that 0.05C is just the same as the impact of a weak sunspot cycle…
In other words, nothing that Sam, or Bill or Alice would notice on their way home from work.
… then at the worst it is all very Shakespearian; ” much ado about nothing” except crops will grow far faster
, larger, with no additional water or land, and become more drought tolerant.
Assuming TSI is the only method by which the sun influences the earth’s climate.
We have disagreed with this before.
The 0.05 c quoted from the impact of a weak sunspot cycle only takes into the account the minimum for only months.
1) Does the planet reach equilibrium with only changes occurring months?
2) What would happen if the same minimum occurred for years or decades?
My answer for 1) is no it doesn’t reach equilibrium.
My answer for 2) is that it is very likely to have a bigger influence than 0.05 c when from a much longer period of time until the planet reaches equilibrium with the solar change that occurred.
This likely happened during the LIA when the sun was consistently at minimum levels for years/decades instead of just months.
I am fed up to the back teeth with the so called “Activists” of every stripe, colour, race, religion, political, gender and climate change persuasion.
“Activist”;
A “zealot” who is attempting to force their own personal ideology and beliefs onto the rest of society by any means available which includes bullying, violence, discrimination allied with a dose of sheer hate against anybody who dares to question their ideology and beliefs.
Zealot;
A person who is fanatical and uncompromising in their pursuit of their religious, political or other ideals.
By that definition ISIS is an example of a horrifying extremist end product of such “activism”.
An extremist end towards which some [ climate change ? ] activists and their activism are trending towards today in the pursuit of an unbridled power to force their own personal and group ideology and beliefs onto the public, the society and the political and bureaucratic systems at every level.
You should redirect some of your anger at the nerd wuss skeptical community that surrenders a dozen debatable activist points in the public forum routinely. The Greenshirts have so intimidated this spineless skeptic dissent and demonstrate their PC dominance daily.
These boards are filled with the problem. The entire gutless and deceitful “mostly a science dispute” is blindly moronic to plain sight evidence of leftist UN agenda setting for decades. If you can’t acknowledge the real climate change agenda you can’t fix the real problem.
When the lack of a full and real Paris exit (total UN Framework exit) dawns on them next week another great opportunity will have been lost due as much to mush skeptic as the Marxist Greenshirt fanatic babbling about saving the planet while their real agenda is ruling the proletariat.
Infirm of purpose skeptics deserve as much blame as orthodox leftist using simpleminded green boilerplate most middle schoolers have figured out.
We should be beyond all data babble, of course CO2 claims are garbage. The moment is about politics and we should be of one voice for a full UN Climate Framework exit instead if what the RINO wimps in the Senate signed on for which is essentially the fake exit. Years more of pointless of banter with basic lies of “climate change” central to how the debate is conducted.
Conventional nerd skeptics and the art of political losing.
It’s uselessness is precisely why we need to stay with it. As long as I can feel good about me that’s all that matters. It’s not about doing good it’s about feeling good.