By Andy May
Key question: Can renewables ever replace fossil fuels and nuclear?
Understanding the value of renewables, vis-à-vis fossil fuels and nuclear power, requires that we consider that all energy is not equal in value. In fact, the quantity we call energy can be misleading and many experts prefer the quantity called “exergy,” which is defined in economics as (source Exergy Economics):
“The maximum useful work which can be extracted from a system as it reversibly comes into equilibrium with its environment.”
Or it can be thought of as the measure of potential work embodied in a material or device. As Ayres, et al. (1998) argue exergy is a more natural choice as a measure of resource quantity than either mass or energy. Even today it seems BTU’s, a measure of heat of combustion, or MToe, million tonnes of oil equivalent, are commonly used and mislabeled energy (see the Exxon Outlook, 2017 or the BP Energy Outlook, 2017). In a previous post (here) I discussed EROI, or energy returned from energy invested. I complained in that post about the inconsistency and inaccuracy in current EROI and LCOE (Levelized cost of electricity) calculations. The problems mostly stemmed from comparing energy or electricity output from different sources (solar, wind, natural gas, coal, nuclear) as if all produced energy was equally valuable, which it isn’t. While comparing the heat of combustion or million tonnes of oil equivalent is clearly incorrect, Rud Istvan and Planning Engineer show that comparing the cost of producing megawatts of electricity, like the IEA and EIA do, is also incorrect, see here and here. Since exergy is a measure of useful work, it helps get around that problem. In a comment to that post, Captain Ike Kiefer posted a reference to Weißbach, et al. (2013) which has a much more valid EROI comparison (see figure 2) of conventional and renewable electricity sources in Germany. Since Germany is, in many ways, a testbed of renewable energy sources for the world; this is very helpful.
EROI is computed in many ways that make it difficult to compare different energy sources. Weißbach, et al. (2013) improve the calculation by using the system input and output exergy in the calculation rather than energy. Thus, now EROI becomes the ratio of the exergy returned and the exergy expended. Put another way, the ratio of the work we get out of a source of energy divided by the work that went into making it. In Weiβbach, et al., they take exergy delivered as equivalent to electricity delivered. Thus, how the electricity is used by the customer is not considered. One other important concept is that the study must include the full life cycle of the power plant, from the very beginning to the end, this is called “LCA.” LCA and exergy are discussed in full by Ayres, et al. (1998).
We will not get into all the ways that EROI has been misused in the past, but the reader can go to Giampietro and Sorman for more on this topic. However, one EROI misuse is worth mentioning as an example. EMROI is the money returned on invested energy, excluding labor and carrying costs. It is not a measure of EROI, but is sometimes presented as EROI which can be very confusing, to see the difference compare figures 1 and 2 and notice the scale change. Our economy runs on energy of different qualities, thermal energy and electrical energy. Currently, thermal energy power plants have an efficiency of 33%, meaning that they are one third as efficient as sources that produce electricity directly, like solar PV (photovoltaic) panels. We are comparing apples and oranges, thermal and electrical; and exergy and LCA can help do this in a valid way.
A modern economy needs electricity on demand, 24 hours a day, without fail. A period without electrical power is called a disaster for a reason. Because demand for electrical power rises and falls constantly there is a need to store energy so power generation can rise to meet increased demand. Fossil fuels, biofuels and nuclear are their own storage, so they have this capability naturally. Wind and solar do not have built-in storage, so it needs to be provided, and this is a cost that must be accounted for. Inexplicably, both the IEA and the EIA (see my previous post here) ignore this cost in their LCOE (levelized cost of electricity) calculations. For example, from the IEA guidelines for LCA (life cycle analysis) assessments (page 10):
“Back-up systems are considered to be outside the system boundary of PV LCA [photovoltaic solar life cycle assessments]; if a back-up system is included, it should be explicitly mentioned.”
This makes no sense, in a modern economy electricity must be available on demand or chaos ensues. Demand cannot be adjusted to cloudiness, so for solar (or wind) to work at all, it must be backed up. The backup (batteries, molten salt storage, fossil fuel, pumped hydro, whatever) must be part of the system. We will not discuss the other problems with IEA assessments here, but will mention that Giampietro and Sorman do a very good (and often hilarious) job of detailing the problems with the IEA assessments in their jewel of a paper entitled “Are energy statistics useful for making energy scenarios?”
Using fossil fuel power plants as a backup creates a conundrum, if the fossil fuel plants must run all the time, but they are not selling power when the solar and wind facilities are providing power, who pays for the fully staffed and idling plants? It turns out the government must subsidize them with “capacity payments” to keep them from going out of business and closing down due to lack of revenue. If they did close, the grid would quickly become unstable as third world grids often are.
In figure 1 we see a Weißbach, et al. (2013) histogram of their exergy calculated EMROI by energy source. The yellow bars include the cost of backup (“buffered”) and the blue bars do not (“unbuffered”). The data used to compute the values shown in the figures can be downloaded as a spreadsheet here.

Figure 1, German EMROI of various energy sources. Source Weißbach, et al. (2013), data: source
Figure 2 uses the same data as figure 1, but EROI is plotted. The scale is reduced for figure 2 due to the smaller numbers. To compute EMROI a weighting factor of three is used in this case, see the spreadsheet for the details. The weighting factor is based on the production cost ratio of electricity to thermal energy. The economic threshold of 7:1, for Germany, is shown in gray. The biomass plotted is corn, the wind generation location is in Germany, coal transportation costs are not included and the type of coal is the German mix (roughly 42% hard coal and 58% lignite). Nuclear is based on 83% centrifuge and 17% diffusion refining. The solar PV values are all rooftop solar values. The commercial solar values are computed as if from the Sahara Desert, but the grid connection to Europe is not included in the cost.

Figure 2, German EROI of various energy sources) source: Weißbach, et al. (2013) , data: source
How is an energy source “buffered” or “backed-up”
Fossil fuel, biofuel and nuclear power plants backup themselves, one simply stores the fuel itself. Hydro power plants can increase the amount water behind the dam to a certain extent to provide some backup, but more is needed. Solar and wind power plants require a separate facility to store power or they require another source of power at the ready. The data plotted in figures 1 and 2 comes from Germany, a country with many contiguous countries that can supply it with emergency power (from fossil fuels, biofuels or nuclear sources) when wind and/or solar fail. They are very dependent upon German coal and lignite power plants for emergency power, currently 45% or so of Germany’s power comes from coal and lignite. In some cases, they have had to return paid taxes to coal power plants to keep them from going bankrupt.
But, this post is not about using fossil fuels to backup wind and solar power plants. Fossil fuel backup is the cheapest backup today and for the foreseeable future. The question we ask is can renewables replace fossil fuels? That requires non-fossil fuel storage of energy. Our charts and figures in this post only apply to Germany today, so does the rest of the discussion. As Weißbach, et al. (2013) write:
“No direct LCA [power plant life cycle assessments] studies could be found for storage systems but pump storage systems are very similar to hydroelectricity plants with storage capabilities. Alternative storage techniques like hydrogen electrolysis and gas storage are much more uneconomic anyway. Here, the Australian Benmore station with an energy demand … of 24,000 TJ has been selected and slightly scaled up (30,000 TJ) in order to fit the planned German Atdorf pump storage system with a projected lifetime of … 100 years. The material and working demands are similar, strongly dominated by the dam’s energy input. Atdorf’s storage capacity is about … 52 TJ … It should, however, be kept in mind that if no favorable topology is available the necessary geo-engineering elevates the energy investment substantially.”
Thus, the authors chose the most economical energy storage system (except for fossil fuel backup) to use for their calculation of the EROI of wind and solar. They chose to store 10 full load days of power for rooftop solar and 2 days for the desert commercial solar facility. They decided only two days would be required for the Sahara Desert facility based on weather history. We should add that topology is not the only problem with pumped hydro storage, land is also an issue. This storage method uses a lot of land, which is not a small cost and it displaces people, never an easy thing to accomplish.
Lifetimes
According to Weißbach, et al., a common mistake in EROI comparisons between electricity sources is using inaccurate power plant lifetimes, this problem is discussed by Planning Engineer and Rud Istvan also. Wind and solar energy sources are reported to have a lifetime of 20 to 30 years, although much shorter lifetimes have also been observed. In the case of wind, rotor and bearing fatigue limit the life and in the case of solar it is silicon degradation. However, it is common for combined cycle gas turbines to last more than 40 years and for coal power plants to last more than 50 years. Nuclear plants often last more than 60 years (the current US planned life) and hydroelectric facilities can last more than 100 years. It is very important for the plant lifetime to be accurate because the EROI (or levelized cost) scales directly with it. Consider then the US EIA statement (page 3) quoted below about lifetime and LCOE (levelized cost of energy). See also 2018 Levelized Costs AEO 2013, page 2:
“The levelized cost shown for each utility-scale generation technology in the tables in this discussion are calculated based on a 30-year cost recovery period, using a real after tax weighted average cost of capital (WACC) of 6.6 percent. In reality, the cost recovery period and cost of capital can vary by technology and project type.”
So, they know the various plant lifetimes are different. Presumably they know that the levelized cost of a 60-year nuclear plant could be as low as one half the cost of their assumed 30-year plant, yet they use 30 years anyway.
Conclusions
For the most part this post is a summary of Weißbach, et al. and I refer the reader to that excellent paper and their supplementary spreadsheet for more details. Here we only hit the highlights. They note that only a uniform mathematical procedure based on exergy makes it possible to compare all power generating systems accurately. They have done this using mostly data from Germany, the numbers will be different for different locations.
Solar PV, the most efficient rooftop solar, is not economic in this study. Wind energy is only economic when not backed up or “buffered.” Biofuels require no buffering, but it makes no difference, the huge cost of producing the fuels make them uneconomic. Commercial solar is economic in deserts, so if transmission lines can be built and if suitable backup storage is built, this is a renewable possibility. Unfortunately, the best backup is pumped hydro and this is often not possible in deserts. Weißbach, et al. do mention that, in their opinion, molten salt energy storage is not economic.
The most egregious flaws in previous EROI studies are:
- Upgrading the output inappropriately for solar and wind generation because their output is electricity. That is renewable EMROI is computed, then compared with the EROI of conventional plants. Apples and oranges again! See also Giampietro and Sorman on this topic, page 10.
- Using inappropriate power plant lifetimes.
- Counting all output, that is using wind and solar capacity for calculations and ignoring the need for “buffering” or backup. Virtually all other assessments do this and the difference is huge.
Weißbach, et al. have corrected the errors in previous studies and seem to have computed the most robust set of numbers I’ve seen to date. So, what is the answer to the question at the top of the post? It seems that Germany is very unlikely to replace fossil fuels and nuclear with renewables. Weißbach, et al. have shown that, in Germany, all renewables, except commercial solar installed in the Sahara Desert, are currently uneconomic. This means that renewables must be subsidized indefinitely, unless a major technical breakthrough in energy storage appears. Currently, the cheapest form of “buffering” are the existing German coal and natural gas power plants. Other buffers, like pumped hydro and molten salt are uneconomic. However, since renewable fuels must be purchased by the grid, by German law, fossil fuel plants will probably not sell enough electricity to break even. Thus, fossil fuel plants will also need to be subsidized for grid stability. The alternative is for Germany to import all their emergency power from neighboring countries. But, in the latter case, they may need to subsidize the added necessary, and presumably fossil fuel, power surplus their neighbors will need. Germany is apparently burning Euro notes for power and, fairly large denomination Euro notes at that.
Key question: Can renewables ever replace fossil fuels and nuclear?
No.
As stated, the existing power plants were the cheapest backup power. So in reality the simplest economics works out to this…
Power Plant + Fuel Costs
verses
Power Plant + Renewables + Fuel Costs – Fuel Savings
Notice that, the renewables are really competing against just the cost of fuel. If it costs any more than that, its more expensive. But then there’s a second problem, under/overproduction by renewables. Simply put, renewables will cause price spikes and crashes in the wholesale market as they fall short of demand and produce more than demand can use. And in practice what this works out to is…wind energy either not being able to pay for its self when it’s not producing and not being able to pay for its self when it IS producing.
Normally the market takes care of these issues in one simple way. They recognize that there is almost no value in the product (renewables), and cease production
nice analytical approach.
correct conclusion…
I do not agree. If I/you had a coal powered electrical generator plant and could save 100 trucks of coal every time the wind blows, would you build a windmill. YES. now that is simple and the numbers work and over time a sensible percentage of coal burning is avoided and has all the benefits that go with that. Of course you need to keep a high percentage of coal input. So? It is not black or white – there is a grey area and wind power does help out. Don’t fall for contrived/artificial pricing market numbers on a screen benefits to a select few leeches on the bill/taxpayer
Well a 3mw wind turbine, even assuming a 33% capacity factor (which is high) will only make 219000 mwh over its entire life. Coal makes about 2mw/ton and costs $40/ton right now. So BASICALLY that works out to $20 (per mwh fuel costs) times 219000mwh or 4.3 million dollars.
HOWEVER, the wind turbine costs 1.3 to 2.2 million per mwh of installed nameplate capacity. So the 3mw turbine costs between 3.9 million and 6.6 million. Most nations have been averaging a 20% capacity factor though. So most will actually NEVER be profitable. And these are high capital costs…the equivalent of buying ALL the coal a power plant will use over its entire life.
No, wind power does not “help out” in any way, shape or form. That is simply Greenie pie-in-the-sky unicorn farts emotionalism. Saving coal from being burned is no advantage except in the feverish minds of Greenie ideologues.
The problem is that due to the nature of a coal fired power plant, it’s output cannot be ramped up and down quickly. Therefore the idea that you are going to save on coal when the wind blows is nonsense.
Beyond that, one of the biggest expenses for such plants is labor. Do you believe the manager is going to send everyone home for a couple of hours just because the wind has picked up?
@ur momisugly poitsplace
Your simplistic analysis is appealing and captures the generation redundancy, but it doesn’t address the thousands of line miles of new transmission required to integrate diffuse and remote RE to the grid. You need to add that term.
And by adding both more power generation and more transmission without being able to retire any, the overall utilization rate of infrastructure is reduced, lowering efficiency of operations, increasing lifecycle costs, and increasing environmental footprint per unit of energy delivered. U.S. annualized capacity factor for generation has dropped from 47% to 40% since our second government push for renewables began in earnest in 2005. I can only imagine how it has dropped in Germany.
$3 billion + to build 500MW coal power station. Whilst cost of coal is cheap the actual cost of a unit kWh to make break even is 15cent or more. The cost of road infrastructure/maintenance, the nuisance of thousands of heavy lorry trips destroying roads. The pollution from the plant.
I know its gotta be done, I just don’t agree with the financial accounting which has three problems – one is the opportunist profiteering that makes wind cost what it allegedly does, two that the issue is not a straight forward calculation on cost/kWh. The whole pricing of power is contrived and artificial, wherever it comes from, just as the price of oil used to be controlled (was quite low). Three, the fact that wind is free but inconsistent and coal is cheap but the investment needed to exploit it is huge.
The price of anything depends to a large extent on what people can pay. If you subsidise wind then the price of turbine goes up. In the beginning this subsidy needs be done to protect investment/people, but profiteering/political and financial advantaged entities have exploited it all for profit. There is no way a 1MW wind turbine costs 2.2Million, or should cost that.
Why not have a free market where consumers put there money where their choices dictate. When wind blows, buy, perhaps more expensive wind electric, if so inclined. If wind stops blowing buy coal electric. You would have a situation where people would perhaps not be so inclined or able to afford wind so its price would come down to a truer value point. Coal would get cheaper too or even put their price up a bit when the wind stopped!, a bit of competition perhaps. I would hope that wind could compete at this stage in the game, even wiithout subsidies. Gets complicated.
I can run a diesel genny and get kWh price equal to the electricity board charge and not have to pay standing charge. That is just wrong wrong wrong. There is something seriously wrong with power production and pricing. I don’t trust the financial/profit/business corruption that exploits people and the confusion in an issue.
testing
sorry, just has two posts disappear into the ether !
I don’t know.. where are they?
Nothing rude or untoward at all in them.
Doesn’t say “in moderation” just gone !!!
Last try…. I apologise if the other three appear.
Another way of measuring is with a “reliability factor”
ie, what percentage of nameplate can the source “guarantee to deliver” 95% of the time.
For coal, gas, nuclear, this would be somewhere reasonably close to nameplate value.
A couple of years ago, I did the calculations on one month of UK wind, (10 minute values iirc) and came up with an answer of around 4-5% of nameplate.
Solar of course scores a big fat zero.
Moderators…Ok, I’ve tried 4 times now.
Please only post one if they appear.
You would have to include the cost of road repairs in any calculation of the cost of having vehicles to get around as road repairs seem to constantly needed (more and more pot holes) perhaps it would be a good idea to have vehicles that don’t require roads or roads that don’t need repairing.
The Greens promised us steady wind electricity production, because “THE WIND ALWAYS
BLOWS SOMEWHERE” (German Green leader Kuenast)….. which makes the problem just
to a logistical problem of operating the grid.
and droughts and famines never happen because it is ‘always raining somewhere’…
Ah! The liberal at student mind!
Definitions.
Solar and wind are not “renewable”.
With the exception of perhaps pump storage systems, these economical energy storage systems often do not include the costs of security. The energy density of the storage systems make them a real target of terrorist-type crazies.
The triumph of the 20th century was to use government intervention to destroy the relationship between money and value.
this is what the argument is all about: the value of renewables versus the value of a self storing energy source.
money depends on the subsidy regime.
Is all energy equal in value? Similarly are all dollars equal in value? I’m now offering 200 000 ZW dollars in return for 100 000 US dollars. http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=200000&From=ZWD&To=USD
Any green blob representatives on line? No need to look into commas here either. Hurry, the offer expires soon.
Where is Griff to refute this, well written, article?
/Sarc off
I don’t hang around here like the unemployed all day.
See above.
This is an abstract article which pays no regard to actually operating renewable power across the world.
Refute the article.
Heard rumours gang green employment peaking at 97%, but wonder what it is nowadays. Perhaps Trump can get it to 0.04%. Having said that the same sources claim even it can be excessive, but I’m generous – it’s far less than the global error margin.
None of it can be refuted if one assumes CO2 increase attributable to human activity is not a problem.
“tony mcleod March 18, 2017 at 1:45 am”
Then show actual evidence that the increase in CO2, by~40%, *IS* a problem. So far, it’s pure bunkum, not even a hypothesis.
Are you holding your breath now Tony?
tony, that has already been proven. Not only is CO2 not a problem, it’s a huge net benefit.
Better late than never. This satirical sketch is about Australia, South Aus specifically, but could be generic.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-16/clarke-and-dawe:-the-energy-market-explained/8359762
Too funny! Thanks for posting that link! Markets and Govn’t policy, markets with energy *BILLERS* too too funny!
No wukkers, mate!
Exergy, a new term to get acquainted with.
___________________________________________
Germany is apparently burning Euro notes for power and, fairly large denomination Euro notes at that.
___________________________________________
D’accord at once.
Thanks, Andy May.
Factor in all the other costs,
Destruction of forests for the Windturbines, the heavy use of fossil fuels to have the windturbines built, transported and erected. The Building of roads to maintain the turbine spread across the countryside using fossil powered vehicles. The 1000 tonnes of concrete under each one. the 40 + lorries trucking across the countryside to pour the concrete. FInally at the end of the turbines life the fossil fuelled trucks needed to take aways the rancid carcass.
Wow, what a vindictive bias. Totally emotive and exaggerated and contrived rant.
We need a helping of wind and solar the same way ice cream needs a helping of bird poop on top.
For @Neillusion, facts without emotion.
Wind has a far larger environmental land and habitat footprint per unit of energy than fracking, and yields a fraction of the energy over its lifetime. Compare power production of 1.1 W/m2 for U.S. terrestrial wind national average to 90 W/m2 for 10 barrel/day stripper well in a played-out oil field to 300+ W/m2 for fracked gas well. Wind requires large, permanent pads and access roads for giant cranes to do maintenance, and involves trenching and permanently burying miles of cables. Here’s an aerial shot to illustrate the permanent scaring that wind involves.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2646iw3.jpg
Scarring the land is only bad when the oil companies do it.
Why you call it ‘scarring’? I live near a wind farm that has 70 x 850KW windmills. It was built on top a bog mountain – where much peat had been harvested already. It is windy and produces plenty of electricity. No trees cut down. No scenary issues. No problems – just harvesting the wind energy, saving use of peat in peat fired power station. The trees uprooted in pic above could/would/should have been planted elsewhere – so what it problem? Harvest free energy. Sure it costs to build it, what doesn’t – how many cars are there? But it does save on burning peat, in my example, which probably saves many peat bogs. My point is that arguments based on finance/land/copper/concrete/bird/bat are nonsense in bigger pic. And just as you have a pic and call it scarring, others would see sensible development and bigger pic advantage. Just to be clear I would keep coal power plants (keep the CO2 coming, but clean up the rest a bit) and gas but supplementing them with wind is just big pic good common sense in my opinion. It is just that money talks the loudest and goes to but few who have control and connections – robbing the tax/bill payer little by little (or not so little) There is so much nonsense from greens and anti greens alike who I think miss the real control factors which amount to human privilege and greed – the rich are always trying to line their pockets deeper and deeper with money from those who have the least. The arguments in respect of birds and examples above, is just nonsense in bigger pic. If you decide to live longer on this planet you/we need power. I hope Thorium MSR comes out big soon – I think the time until that gets a hold we will manage with what we have – coal, gas, oil, nuclear as is with a helping of wind/solar.
Of course, this is the classic aerial shot of gas wells vs windmills (h/t BH). It shows there are 11 gas wells in the picture, but they’re difficult to see. The ruinables aren’t so difficult to hide…
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/display/ShowImage?imageUrl=/storage/natural%20gas%20production%20-%20windmills.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1374396078042
Try this link:
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/102468/23150825/1374396059910/natural+gas+production+-+windmills.jpg?token=3sl0dDQpTbGUJXeepIjE6huKM80%3D
That is a bit of an emotive cheap shot…sort of like what the radical enviros do when take a picture of a recently clear cut forest. Fast forward 15-20 years, and it is all in grown in with new plant life. Nature abhors a vacuum.
https://youtu.be/bznWzEBGC9U
This is the insanity this climate change nonsense has resulted in. Germany is building wind farms and not funding NATO.
Climate “Science” on Trial; Germany Builds Wind Farms While NATO Burns
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/03/17/climate-science-on-trial-germany-builds-wind-farms-while-nato-burns/
There also is a qualitative consideration: in what type of country do we want to live? A country covered with wind turbines and high voltage lines, large areas inaccessable due to hydro storage?
Progress, in many cases, amounts to less dependency on land and nature. (housing, roads, transporation systems, electric light) Any technology that highly depends on land and nature should be regarded with great scepsis as it likely is backwardness. In this regard nuclear power is the best, leaving land for trees and animals.
Environmentalists want land covered with turbines, panels, high voltage lines and huge reservoirs as long as it puts us back in the 18th century. The environmental damage is not based on reality, but rather one’s particular end goal. If destroying the environment is necessary to punish people for being capitalists and successes, then so be it.
There will be a considerable increase in power lines in the UK due to new nuclear plants.
UK HVDC lines to help ship Scottish wind power south have been deployed offshore or buried.
solar panels very often go on roofs.
There is no large scale hydro planned for the UK – exception one large potential pumped storage plan.
Very many new UK wind turbines are far offshore. They are even trying floating ones.
Compact nuclear reactors are the future, installed close to the consumer, saving power grids, saving nature.
It’s like this-
“In physics, power is the rate of doing work. It is equivalent to an amount of energy consumed per unit time. In the SI system, the unit of power is the joule per second (J/s), known as the watt in honour of James Watt, the eighteenth-century developer of the steam engine.”
and why some can now happily reminisce about horsepower rather than manpower although brainpower was always the implicit assumption-
https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Invented-Twentieth-Century/dp/148122980X
I see numerous comments about Europe in general Germany in particular and electrical generation, here are sources for several European countries
Germany
https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm
Denmark
http://energinet.dk/Flash/Forside/index.html
Spain
https://demanda.ree.es/demandaGeneracionAreasEng.html
France
https://demanda.ree.es/demandaGeneracionAreasEng.html
this one is good for seeing imports and exports
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/
UK
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Finally as European wind speed map
http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/forecast/europe/europeanwind.html
Thanks Sandy, great links!
Meh. As written, this is a contortion of the problems of comparison. Generally true, specifically less true. One thing specifically true by anecdote is that if you subsidize wind, you are forced to subsidize its back up. Illinois is paying nukes to stay open, primarily because of the problems nukes have selling electricity against subsidized wind. No subsidies for coal though. Prices rise. Ergo, government pays our money to energy producers to raise prices to us.
On the subject of comparability and the not so hidden costs of government and political interference, one might start with the Clinton nuclear power plant in Illinois. Originally budgeted at $400 million, it was built just after Three Mile Island at a cost of $4 billion. When it’s builder went bankrupt, it was sold to Exelon for $40 million. Still, Exelon can’t afford to keep it open with its costs (despite setting records for efficiency in refueling and other operations) and the market price of subsidized wind. So the state just granted the plant a generous subsidy package. Exelon calls that a level playing field.
So Germany is being taxed without benefit out of guilt from something they had little control over..we know what happened last time. So instead of barrels of DMs to buy a loaf of bread, it is a euro per kW-hour 😉
The disingenuity of Gang Green and their cohorts and useful idiots is amazing. First they punish fossil fuels and reward “renewables” aka “green” energy. Then they have the gall to crow about how well their “planet-saving” (and economy-destroying) energy is doing. Incredible.
Wind and solar electricity production is a tax of energy consumers. Full stop. Like all other taxes it is meant to provide for a common good. In this case abatement of CO2 emmisions preventing harmful climate change. That is your case and it does not hold up to scrutiny. There is zero evidence that increased atmosperic CO2 levels result in harmful climate change.
What you have are flawed model projections and rent seeking economics. We are moving to educate the public on your flawed political science and defunding the impoverishing rent
seeking behaviour. Not all that complicated.
Even if the models are true, is there any evidence that solar and wind reduce CO2 emissions?
Yes!
Just go google it.
UK now has same CO2 output it did in 1894.
The environmental organisations declare we have only some decades left, but to achieve their renewables goals an incredible amount of steel etc must be produced which needs carbon and produces CO2. This is a contradiction. To save CO2 exhaust, build nuclear power plants.
England also has the same economic output that it did in 1894.
So let me get this straight. If I need a back up system capable of replacing a solar farm when the sun is not shining, why do I need the solar farm at all. Just run the back-up system full time.
Same for pumped-storage. You build two power sources where one would have been enough.
Well, the constant cost of the fossil fuel is going to be expensive… especially if you are a state with no fossil fuel resources or worse an island where you have to ship the fuel in…
And most of the world and the scientific community believe we need to reduce CO2.