From the road to green hell is paved with good intentions (and dead birds) department and MarketWatch comes this unsurprising news:
A federally backed, $2.2 billion solar project in the California desert isn’t producing the electricity it is contractually required to deliver to PG&E Corp., which says the solar plant may be forced to shut down if it doesn’t receive a break Thursday from state regulators.
The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System, owned by BrightSource Energy Inc., NRG Energy Inc. NRG, +0.79% and Alphabet Inc.’s GOOG, +0.02% GOOGL, +0.15% Google, uses more than 170,000 mirrors mounted to the ground to reflect sunlight to 450-foot-high towers topped by boilers that heat up to create steam, which in turn is used to generate electricity.
But the unconventional solar-thermal project, financed with $1.5 billion in federal loans, has riled environmentalists by killing thousands of birds, many of which are burned to death — and has so far failed to produce the expected power.
more here
“…c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.”
I wonder if Peter Jackson could make use of a couple of towers out in the desert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Solar_Project
20 miles east of Barstow, CA immediately north of Interstate 40 is Solar One. It went into operation in 1982. I would have thought all the bugs would have been worked out before making another one.
Oops. It was leveled in 2009.
This is a power plant which will never produce any practical amount of power.
This reminds me of something I saw recently. Let me look.
Here it is:
Advanced Weapons Tested For Destroyer That Will Never Destroy Anything
Here is the whole thing:
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/02/test-advanced-weapons-destroyer-wont-destroy/
When you can no longer tell the difference between satire and reality, it is not necessarily you who has the problem.
That just says they’re never get to employ those systems in actual combat [that] week. So either it will see eventual combat, or it’s a horribly structured sentence. Perhaps they should have said “This week, engineers at Naval Sea Systems Command…”
But it’s all sarc anyway…
They got a reprieve: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ivanpah-solar-plant-wins-reprieve-from-california-regulators-2016-03-17
** ,yep Anthony best add-on Update note at top of the story
WSJ California Regulators Give Ivanpah Solar Plant More Time
Lifeline gives owners up to a year to work out problems
The reprieve does not extend to tax payers who will pay more to keep this costing more and more later.
With free heat for cooking and a ready supply of local birds to roast, perhaps they could turn it into something useful, like a fast food outlet. I’m sure there will be plenty of greens willing to eat crow pizza.
But think of all the green jobs it created!
Yet another Mel Brooks “Springtime for Hit… ” type Broadway flop. When will people figure out what is going on here?
Just a slight issue that seems to elude the brilliant Wind and Solar folks…. Climate Changes so you build systems that Require the climate to remain constant because the climate is changing because of CO2 that you have to increase to manufacture the systems that require the climate not to change….
Silly Billies, should have had a sunset clause in the contract
They probably had one that said “after sunset no electricity would be produced”
Maybe they could open a fast food franchise selling flash-fried migratory birds/
Compare this $2.2 billion solarproject to the expected performance and costs of a Transatomic Power molten salt nuclear reactor and there are no govts that would ever go solar. The MSR costs roughly the same as this plant, which is claimed makes 175MW. The question, as always with renewable claims- when output? That 176MW figure is likely the max output at max solar radiance level – which occurs for a few minutes per day. Iwould hazard a guess that, evenwit the ability to displace power, the average output is likely less than 75MW. The MSL is generally considered a small modular reactor, inherently safe, capable of burning and more or less disposing of nuclear wastes as fuel. It is also capable of load following and
probably costs roughly the same as Ivanpah, but can output 550MW of continuous power, 24/7/365
The MSL is walk-away safe.can be refueled without shutdown and, in my opinion, has no competition as a power plant. Has a very long lifespan and will be the cheapest producer of power. Period. Expected to go commercial by 2020 – built in a factory, can be located practically anywhere – close to the end user. Very proliferation resistant.
“compare this $2.2 billion solarproject to the expected performance and costs of a Transatomic Power molten salt nuclear reactor”
On the other hand, I don’t think even a Harvard MBA can blow a solar power plant up. I’m a bit skeptical that it is possible to design a nuclear plant that a highly educated modern manager can’t eventually turn into a disaster by cutting corners on maintenance, outsourcing, etc, etc, etc.
The solar panels collect sun and disperse the sun to a single point where that heats water to past boiling point. Steam is then routed to turbine where electricity is created.
Have you ever seen one of these turbines? These turbines are large and spin very fast and yes they can explode. Even when powered by steam from solar panels….the turbine doesn’t know the difference between coal steam or solar steam.
And, Ivanpah has diesel generators to heat the boilers in the early morning hours…..very capable of blowing up.
Don K
Your warming about maintenance and cutting corners applies equally well to anything modern powered by steam. They are dangerous and vulnerable and require constant maintenance. Given the safety overkill for nukes, Thorium-fluoride is safe enough for us ordinary humans.
You forgot sabotage. Evidence that TMI was sabotaged is significant and rarely discussed.
But as a society, we need to show more respect to people not endangered by radiations. We need to care about people dying of something else than a failure in a nuclear power plant.
For example, it is said that a nuclear plant couldn’t cope with a possible (according to geology) quake. The power plant is designed for a major quake (*) plus a safety margin. But nothing else is. So in case of an extreme quake, no house would resist. People would die in buildings. But then, it’s apparently an acceptable outcome – cause no radiations.
(*) largest estimated from history – and yes, estimating magnitude from intensity recorded in history books is difficult
At the frontier of France with Germany, there is no quake safety rule for ordinary buildings. Many are made of bricks, known even by laymen as one of the weakest building method for lateral efforts resistance (after mud and horsesh.t walls).
I can’t accept that.
Nor should you accept it. As you probably know, risk that is hoisted upon the individual is perceived as greater than the risk one chooses for themselves. Part of the whole art to moving a large group of individuals towards a common mission is to know this perception exists. It’s near impossible to address this perception unless you acknowledge it’s presense.
We are an ever interesting species.
Every time I find a reference to this sort of thing, two thoughts pop into my mind. Can they actually produce what they are promoting, and secondly, will they be allowed to do so.
Somehow I very much doubt they will ever actually be able to build one of these plants in North America, at least not till their is a serious shift in the leadership of our countries.
One of their biggest problems. They haven’t allowed for pork barrel handouts. I imagine that would double the cost of the project, at least
I wonder what sorts of kick backs PG&E and other backers got from the marine propulsion and engineering firms who sold a lot of the gear that went into this cluster____?
Meanwhile in other news, PG&E are pursuing a photovoltaic version of this in the previously unspoilt Panoche Valley.
Well now we know what happens when those in power get Gangrene.
I wonder what the creditors will repurpose this plant to do?
Hold airlines to ransom?
Link, please. I like it, but data is even better.
It’s also a hazard to aircraft. The towers are “above the horizon” as viewed from the mirrors, so the project produces a blinding light.
“The towers are “above the horizon” as viewed from the mirrors, so the project produces a blinding light.”
Hmmmm. Have to think about that. The mirror array “focuses” at the tower so at any substantial distance beyond the tower, the “beam” is spread way out both vertically and horizontally? Maybe it’s not much different from a pilot’s point of view than a body of water between the aircraft and the sun on a calm day with no ripples/waves on the water?
17 Mar: NYT: Raphael Minder: Once a Darling, Spanish Solar Company Abengoa Faces Reckoning
Clean-energy technologies will play a crucial role as countries try to meet the ambitious targets set by the United Nations climate accord last December. But many of the technologies underpinning renewables are proving economically unsustainable in the short term, particularly with oil prices declining and governments reducing incentives.
The financial reality is forcing companies globally to adjust. A big British utility, SSE, is rethinking its wind farms, as the country cuts subsidies. SolarCity and other American renewable companies left Nevada after the state withdrew its support of rooftop systems…
Its fall from grace, said Valeriano Ruiz Hernandez, a retired professor at Seville University who taught many of the company’s engineers, is “a genuine hammer blow” for Spain and its renewable energy sector.
“I always had the intuition that so much corporate ambition would end up bursting at the seams,” he said…READ ON
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/18/business/international/once-a-darling-spanish-solar-company-abengoa-faces-reckoning.html?_r=0
That’s an idea. Do you believe that IPCC is controlled by a corporate ambition?
Here is a big problem with the failure of these alt-energy companies, besides the tax burden you did not quite feel (the frog in the pot phenomenon):
Major branches of government and many governments were sold a story:
1. man-made global warming is perilously real;
2. the scope is so broad that it requires the buy-in of many of the planet’s nations (including your nation), and you MUST ACT NOW because things are perilously bad;
3. there are international efforts underway to get nations to buy in to green energy as a solution, and also as role-model leaders for the private world, and also to boot-strap markets to some imagined self-sustaining level;
4. hey, while all of this business is going on, why don’t you devote a portion of your government-employee pension fund to green corporations – you MUST ACT NOW to get in on the “ground floor” – as more nations commit to going green, the cost per share in these green companies will go up and you will lose out on the investment opportunity you have RIGHT NOW;
5. Oh, by the way, my name is Al Gore, and along with being the planet’s authority on global warming, I also happen to have a side business: Generation Investment Management – we are an investment advising firm that helps VERY BIG investors – ONLY very big investors – to buy into green companies.
—-Now, as green investments fail, government pensions are going to get hit big time.
Think about it. For each and every government, and government agency, that buys into the idea and buys in with pension funds, there is a huge upside to acceptance of the man-made climate-warming scam being perceived as real, and a huge downside to skepticism.
When BBC pensions depend on acceptance of man-made global warming, whether real or not, how will they cover the news?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/156703/8bn-BBC-eco-bias
I am not making this up. Click the link:
http://www.iigcc.org/
From their own home page:
“IIGCC is a network of 120 members, including some of the largest pension funds and asset managers in Europe, who represent nearly €13 trillion in assets and take a pro-active approach to managing risks and opportunities related to climate change.
Al Dork’s investment firm:
https://www.generationim.com/
They began a decade ago, and as of the end of 2015, they have 7.8 billion in assets under management. Great work if you can get it.
Now, you know why Al Dork donates all proceeds of “An Inconvenient Truth” to charity – that is chump change for him. Green investment management is his real business.
As government pensions get hit by the failure of green, there will be great difficulty meeting annual government budgets. Oh, wait – here in the United States. we have not had the federal government operate under a budget since 1997.
Here is one of the entities doing the sales pitch…
https://www.unglobalcompact.org/what-is-gc
All of this can be googled, except the idea I pose that government pensions have been seduced into investing by “ground floor” appeals, and that pensions will be hurting as these solar and wind projects do not mature to fruition.
A failure like Spain’s. And they will likely find like all the wind farms that the developer sold the system to a builder for a significant profit (same owners, different entity) which is essentially dissolved after a bit of time, the builder then sold the operating contract to another entity made up of several smaller entities for a tidy profit which sells the power for what they can but make money over the depreciation period regardless of “profit”. As the depreciation cycle diminishes, the company declares bankruptcy and abandons the project and facility to the elements with no clean up.
All executives and limited partners will have made huge sums. All will have made huge contributions to Democrat politicians and left wing front/environmental organizations such as the Sierra Club.
People – you have to review Pat Ch ‘s analysis – this is the game.
It depends on you believing your democrats and republican legislators are sworn enemies, and on you being complacent with your comfy life.
Another solar plant gets scuppered by our old freind the desert tortoise and hopes to convince 100 long horn sheep to cross the Interstate-15.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-solar-20150612-story.html
Good luck with the search for a ZERO impact way of producing utility scale power.
Here’s another complete ‘green’ energy fail from Tasmania, Australia – this time when combining an over-reliance on hydro with a carbon tax:
http://themarcusreview.com/2016/03/16/tasmanias-energy-scandal/
WOW! It’s worse than I thought!
I just couldn’t believe how much more I uncovered the more I read into it. Scandal is the only appropriate word!
They have the optical design wrong anyway.
There are two ways to get better solar through steam and pressure.
You can have a lens that collects 8 feet of sunlight and focuses down it on metal pipes, this provides the thermal obviously but also, fantastically, it causes the metal to expand, which gives you power through thermal expansion, ie steam and pressure from the same sunlight, two sources.
There would be no need for directing light upwards and killing birds, a convoluted design by idiots.
If you had a field of these lenses and associated pipe work you create a solar heated and pressurized system none of which needs to be more than a few feet from the ground, a pressure system like this would also provide sufficient power to start off the system as this pressure can be stored overnight to at least retain wake-up power for the following day
Care to explain how you plan to generate power from expanding pipes ?
As an old school piping engineer I am rather interested. While the forces generated by expanding
pipes can be high this does not mean high power production. Heat a 1000 metre long piece of steel by 100 deg C and it will increase in length just 12 mm. That’s kind hard to turn into power.
The reality is there is no point installing lenses not only would they need to track the sun they
are fragile and expensive, Just paint the pipes black and they absorb heat. Better yet instead of using pipes use wide thin metal or plastic channels and whoopee doo you have just reinvented the solar powered water heater. I made one out of black plastic bags back in my camping days it worked pretty well even in Northern England.
None of this circumvents the basic problems with solar power.
1) The sun don’t shine at night
2) The amount of solar power varies seasonally, especially at high latitudes
3) Clouds drastically reduce output.
This is why commercial solar power systems don’t work well in equatorial regions. They are dark 12 hours a day and they get a lot of rain and cloud. The best use of solar power is at residential and small business locations in desert regions in lower latitudes. Here daytime power use is high and they can make appreciable savings on your electricity bill. If I lived in Southern Spain , North Africa or Arizona I’d install one , in Northern England forget it.
I was seated next to a Georgia Tech grad student a year or two ago. Her research involved materials generating power through expansion and contraction. I don’t think steel is in that class, but there could be something to this.
I’ll start off by saying I am not an engineer so this would be the point at where an engineer would think about how this would be accomplished.
Now you say 12mm on a 100m piece of steel, what other metal or allow could expand more?
Another question, how much force would that expansion provide? How much pressure could it create, because if the pressure is applied to a steam containment system then it creates pressure in that system and therefor power.
We are talking a network of steam lines with pressure being created across it.
We are then talking pressure from expanding metal (or alloy) and energy from the sun creating the steam, which depends on how much light you can focus on the parts designed to hold water and turn it to steam with focused sun energy from special lenses you can indeed buy, they are expensive but you can get anything made cheaper in China tbh.
Neither requires mirrors pointing up at a tower to fry birds.
At a guess, I would try a good alloy that does not weaken at temperatures and can contain thousands of pounds of pressure. A pipe with a core rod with water in the gap, (no clue of dimensions here).
Such a construction can also be fitted with bog standard solar panels too. Tripling up the sources.
It would be interesting if any engineers on here could think on it, at least, am convinced this would work, the design is key and that is something outside of my field of expertise, I’m an IT engineer not a mechanical engineer ROFL, I am not a real engineer 🙂
The design of the network is probably the most important aspect, thermal expansion at various parts of the network is accumulated. The total pressure added is important compared to pressure at one point.
With a pipe with a core rod in it, both will expand, which as you say wont be much but.. if the system is already pressurised by the focused sunlight turning water to steam, every mm of thermal expansion ups the power incrementally. This is pressure produced by thermal expansion by width expansion however small, it also doesn’t stop as a cloud passes as the pipe works won’t cool down drastically.
Add to that the pipes would expand in length so how these is all connected together can harvest both width and length thermal expansion.
Plus you get lots of hot water at very little cost, on a larger scale, this system could (guessing here) produce a energy and hot water.
Fleshing this out in an engineering design, I am the wrong man for that.
Thermal expansion coefficients at 20c.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/thexp.html
Which would be best suited?
Maybe if the captured the energy emitted by the toasted birds…
Earth day coming up, forget not to turn on all your lights, if you have not prepared your bonfire, with the required amount of old tires at least light your BBQ. Let us do it for GAIA.
So they modelled a power generation capacity and came up with the wrong numbers. Quelle surprise.
But they could build a weather station at one of the towers to bust the pause once and for all. That must be worth more than $2.2 billion.