From the road to green hell is paved with good intentions (and dead birds) department and MarketWatch comes this unsurprising news:
A federally backed, $2.2 billion solar project in the California desert isn’t producing the electricity it is contractually required to deliver to PG&E Corp., which says the solar plant may be forced to shut down if it doesn’t receive a break Thursday from state regulators.
The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System, owned by BrightSource Energy Inc., NRG Energy Inc. NRG, +0.79% and Alphabet Inc.’s GOOG, +0.02% GOOGL, +0.15% Google, uses more than 170,000 mirrors mounted to the ground to reflect sunlight to 450-foot-high towers topped by boilers that heat up to create steam, which in turn is used to generate electricity.
But the unconventional solar-thermal project, financed with $1.5 billion in federal loans, has riled environmentalists by killing thousands of birds, many of which are burned to death — and has so far failed to produce the expected power.
more here
I wonder whether this will have any knock-on for Morocco’s installation. (Apologies for the source of the link)
PS: From the blurb:
So, at a rough extrapolation, a HALF GW power station can cost around $30BILLION!!! Value for money in the Third World?
PPS: – that doesn”t work for a full 24 hour day.
No, $9bn is for the complete 2GW system of which the current 160MW is stage1 of 4 (to get the 580MW for phase 1) out of the 4 phases (to add up to the 2GW total).
Lots of information online if you google further
It’s still a crock
Analitik: I was going by the Guardian’s article on it and nowhere does it mention 2GW capacity. But as you say, it’s still a crock.
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty naturally has plenty of anti-Trump propaganda between the excerpts, but no wonder the CAGW establishment is against him:
17 Mar: REFERL: Mike Eckel: Trump Catches Fire In Depressed Coal Region
The coal industry is in decline and jobs are scarce, young people are moving away, and the man to whom people here in this Blue Ridge Mountain state are looking for answers is the unlikeliest of candidates: a flamboyant real-estate tycoon and reality-TV star from New York City named Donald Trump.
“I would call it angry desperation. They’re mad and they’re angry and they’re also desperate for help and answers,” Mullins says…
And it’s in working-class, mostly white places like here in Buchanan County, wedged between West Virginia and Kentucky, where his campaign for the White House has gained the greatest momentum…
Trump walked away with nearly 70 percent of the Republican vote in the primary — trouncing second-place Florida Senator Marco Rubio (nearly 14 percent) and third-place Texas Senator Ted Cruz (nearly 12 percent) — his highest tally of any county in the country so far.
The victory surprised some pundits. Trump hadn’t even campaigned in Buchanan County; the closest he came was on February 29 in Radford, Virginia, a three-hour drive to the east over a mountain road…
The Trump campaign’s website suggests southwest Virginia has absorbed “the brunt of the failed and misguided government policies for years,” accusing Obama of waging an “outright war on coal [that] has uprooted and destroyed families and entire communities.”…
http://www.rferl.org/content/us-election-trump-virginia-coal/27616741.html
Pat just woke up.
No, he/she/it always posts off-topic stuff, and the mods just keep letting it go.
The sun doesn’t have the right friends so it needs to get out of the climate and climate emergency mitigation field.
Has anyone shown you a certificate showing it has consensus to be involved in climate? No.
Has the sun ever passed a paper through the pee-pee review system showing it understands the viability of solar power? No.
Therefore we need to simply stop the sun from participating in the public discourse on climate. If the sun can’t admit,
the basic science is sound,
it doesn’t have any business darkening (pun intended) science with it’s contrarian, lone star so-called ‘belief’ it can’t produce enough energy to obey the contractual demands incurred once the science was settled.
Anti climate science sunshine just makes me sick. It’s back to the dark ages for us all now.
Why can’t the government prosecute such blatantly anti scientific behavior on the part of the sun?
Thanks ”skeptical” movement – as if. You know the sun could do it. You paid it money from BIG OIL so it’ll keep us all shackled to awful fossil fuels.
Try learning the science before making the decision to opt out of the universe having a future, SUNLIGHT.
If you need a sarc off tag you’re the very person nobody wants to realize there’s need for one. It wouldn’t be funny if you didn’t think it’s real.
I would either agree with you or, more likely, disagree with you in no uncertain terms, but since your comment is impossible to decipher any meaning or intent from, does that mean I have to disagree with you in no certain terms?
Solar “plants” or centralized facilities currently contribute .6 % of the energy mix. It’s like a rounding error when making these kind of very large assessments. There is a push to create more solar plants with federal and state money, for what I perceive to be one reason: stupid. They are not practical, they are expensive and finicky and the benefit is practically invisible.
Individual solar installations on homeowner roofs maybe a different story, there is no clear picture of those total contributions that I could find, beyond the usual hyperbole of saving the planet and save money today!!!
The saving money is highly suspect since direct subsidies, tax write-offs for these hugely expensive contraptions on peoples homes cloud the picture as to actual cost. Money is not saved just payed by someone else. As far as energy contribution to the grid, I can’t find a total energy assessment that includes personal individually installed solar. Not saying it ain’t out there, so if somebody knows…
sort of a back door insight to residential solar effects – $, grid,and grid operator matters
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/report-us-generators-face-2b-in-lost-revenues-from-rooftop-solar/415799/
A misleading report. Solar is insignificant. Loss of jobs to places like China is significant. When new regulations on coal plants increased the price of power, the aluminium plant closed down.
No. Alx, the reason is obvious to us all. Big money to Obama supporters, which includes many mainline businesses. They all make their money upfront or early in the process, have grants and loans that they don’t have to pay back If the project fails. Many projects have sweetheart contracts that force utilities to take their output even at highly inflated prices (often authorized by federal law.) It’s like the plot of “The Producers”, often they make more money if the project fails. Then they don’t have to account for any money, it’s just — gone. From the Treasury to their pockets.
WOW!
This is what happens when reality intrudes on “Green Dreams”.
(Maybe instead of a song named “Purple Haze” we need one named “Green Haze”? Unreal, but some still like to listen to it.)
Green haze running thru my mind.
Free energy I’m gonna find.
Got your money.
And I got some meme.
Kiss me while I save the world.
Gunga din — “Green Dreams” — gotta like it — Eugene WR Gallun
A rare scam involving Google. But I wonder how the government should respond to the under-performance. The plant is there; why shut it down? Why can’t Feds seize it and run it – once they did run a bordello in Nevada, seized for a failure to pay taxes? How about fines for owners – Google, pardon Alphabet, is not exactly poor. Could this be the reason for Google creating Alphabet? How about a personal responsibility of public employees who signed this horrible contract?
The bordello went broke under federal management.
The government could not even sell sex and booze at a profit.
After that, nothing should surprise you.
TonyL — HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA — Eugene WR Gallun
I remember when the IRS took over the Mustang Ranch. They could not operate it successfully and after a barrage of late night jokes from Jay Leno and David Letterman, they shut down.
BTW, Google has asked the government to reimburse the $500 million or so that it (Google) paid toward the project. The administration is considering it, thereby ensuring that Google continues its recent tradition of “loaning” executive talent to Democrat presidential election campaign efforts (oh,sorry, they call it “taking a leave of absence”). Helps explain the oh-so-sophisticated voter outreach and manipulation of public opinion that this administration excels at.
Administrations have been perfecting the revolving door aspect of governance/special interests for quite some time now. Of course it’s bad and I’m not sure it will ever stop, but like most corrupting influences needs to be kept to dull roar. Both parties in the US, have their special friends. One would think alot of winking and nodding and turns at the tit take place and thus perhaps is accountable for why governance feels like a swinging pendulum.
The wheels on the bus go round and round but is the bus going backward or forward.
Commenters at other WUWT posts related to Ivanpah expressed concerns that the mirror array was in a “dry” lake, or at the downstream end of an alluvial fan subject to flash flooding. Not to worry. Computer modeling was used in the design process:
http://www.westyost.com/project/ivanpah-solar-electric-generating-facility-stormwater-runoff-and-sediment-transport-analysis
“With this model, we were able to show that construction of the mirror arrays would generate only a minimal change in the surface flooding flows over the alluvial fan. By eliminating construction of major flood control channels and detention basins that had been previously proposed by others, the environmental impacts of the project were greatly reduced and the overall project cost was reduced by $36 million.”
\sarc if it rains.
Translation: They didn’t think the financial fraud would last that long anyway and neither did the regulators or those directing the regulators from the cloak rooms.
Having spent a bit of time wandering about in the Mojave, I shouldn’t think that altering the water flow during rainstorms (mostly occasional violent Summer thunderstorms). But washing out some mirror foundations might be a problem. And, of course, a really wet Winter might cause the lake to fill up. But surely the engineers allowed for that … Surely …
I reviewed “Alluvial Amnesia” here (free 2.8 MB download):
http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/220
“Alluvial Amnesia: How Officials Imperil Communities by Downplaying Flood Risks”
I couldn’t find Shirley. But I found this in the summary on Page 3:
“This report reveals how two recently opened public schools in Rancho Cucamonga were
built in a floodplain despite warnings from state emergency managers that flood
evacuation plans were not in place and that the entire area was potentially subject to
flooding. Local officials ignored this unusual alert from the Governor’s Office of
Emergency Services.”
You’ve heard how climate scientists make temperatures disappear. Here is someone who made the disastrous 1969 flood disappear:
“The Man Who Made a Flood Disappear (Page 26) describes how an academic
exercise by a federal employee wiped away the official record of a deadly 1969
flood, and how his work with the U.S. Geological Survey may have affected the
work of engineers struggling to agree on whether it is safe to live near Deer
Creek.”
Anyone unconvinced of the boondoggle of most green projects need look no further than the continued existence of Tesla, which, for all its sales and hype, still has yet to turn a quarterly profit.
Google got their moneys worth from Ivanpah, as they make their 100% renewable claims.
http://www.palmetto.com/2016/03/17/google-aims-100-renewable-energy-dependent/
In fact, they run off the grid. That they are involved with the generation of an equivalent amount of electricity from renewable sources changes nothing.
Unlike Solyndra, BrightSource will probably find more buyers for the mirrors.
They are facing CA’s new “cap and trade” law too for being over the limit on CO2 emissions from all the natural gas they are using. There is no evidence they are complying with the law, they are likely just paying the fines.
http://www.pe.com/articles/plant-785436-carbon-ivanpah.html
“It is not clear exactly how the Ivanpah plant complied with cap and trade rules. The paperwork that plant operators submitted to the state is considered confidential, Clegern said.”
I tried to find out what the deal was between Apple and Duke Energy at Maiden, NC. All I could find said, “Confidential.”
Each and every taxpayer paid somewhere north of $10 for this plant.
And liberals wonder why Trump is winning !!
There are two viable solutions to that nagging problem:
1. lower expectations sufficiently OR
2. install a diesel generator to meet them
3. Adjust the generated power.
Berényi Péter
You got that right.
How many Microsoft programmers does it take to change a light bulb?
None!
When the light bulb fails to perform as expected, they just rewrite the standard to “Dark”.
I am absolutely convinced we should not let those 170,000 mirrors go to waste. And, I have a brilliant (probably only in my own mind) idea to put them to really good use.
We could have Barack Obama stand in the middle of all of them and project his image out to the heavens. And, naturally, he would think it was an exercise in homage.
But, unbeknownst to him, a warning to our galactic neighbors would accompany his interstellar image: ‘Please don’t do the same think to yourselves.’
‘thing’ not ‘think’
I hate it when spell check gets a mind of its own. (Good excuse, eh?)
How about mirror-cleaner jobs? Jobs are difficult to find in desert environments.
With Trudeau at his side.
I’m sure California can pick up some extra electricity from Oregon, where we are in the process of banning all coal fired power. Since the goal of a “smart grid” would mix sources, I guess California and Oregon can go together on a west coast “dumb grid”.
Unfortunately, you are right. Is the Bonneville dam for sale? No, that won’t do, hydro is not renewable in California.
It’s not considered renewable in Oregon and ,in fac, t the environmentalists wish to have the dams removed to stop interfering with salmon migration
Oregon, like Washington state has been saying ban coal for 20+ years. It gets cold winter.
Ivanpah has been given another year. Whether the new deadline is based on hard economics or soft presidential election year politics was not announced.
On a hard economic basis, there would seem to be no very good reason to shut the plant down as long is it generates enough electricity to pay operating costs and cover interest payments on the loans with something left over. May take a few centuries more than the financial types anticipated to pay down the mortgage however.
Fossil fuel consumption is unchanged whether the plant is running or not. The mortgage does not enter the picture.
“California Regulators Give Ivanpah Solar Plant More Time. Lifeline gives owners up to a year to work out problems”. Sorry, paywalled link:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/california-regulators-give-ivanpah-solar-plant-more-time-1458242826
No worries. In time all of those darn birds will be out of the way and Ivanpah will get up to speed using that free and plentiful sun power. Just don’t look behind the curtain while they are making the “sausage”.
It’s those despicable birds that ruined the whole thing anyway. If we could have gotten rid of those things there would be enough sunlight for it to work.
The death of that useless bird zapper can’t come quick enough!
I wonder what percentage of state and federal investment funds were laundered back to the coffers of both political parties???
All of it.
They just love to shovel all your money over their cliff. The birds will be happy now though.
“Uhhh, actually, on second thought, you DID build that”
Anytime you are experimenting with new technology you sometimes go down the wrong path that is the nature of the beast.
From one of the best inventors of all time- Thomas Edison
“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.”
this was not an experiment it was a scam and waste of tax payer money to enrich politically connected people.
Cheers,
Joe
Hindsight is 20-20….
@Luke. Hindsight sometimes seems 20-20, but let a few more years go past and you often get new 20-20 hindsight that’s quite different.
Peter, you should be in politics.
This was not a learning experience. The Greens learned nothing and the rest of us knew it was a boondoggle from the start.
You’re so right Luke…and at that rate….it may cost $22,000,000,000,000 to get it right… 🙂
..LOL, Edison did not cost America 20 billion dollars to do his experiments, or cost 10,000 jobs !
Are you are saying this grid scale, base-load, is just an experiment? This technology is “sold” to us as a viable, carbon emission free, replacement for fossil fuel base power generation, and yet, it still has to use a fossil fuel to get it going. You are a laugh Luke and naieve!
@Patrick NJD, March 17 6.10 pm, As far as Luke is concerned? Patrick you are a gentleman.
Sorry Patrick: MJD ! , (not NJD)
I know many people who’d disagree with you, but I’ll take the compliment at face value! Thanks!
Been exposing this big green crony deal for a long time: http://greencorruption.blogspot.com/2014/11/not-enough-sun-shining-at-ivanpah-solar.html?m=1#.VGq2aWdOXDe
Christine,
Amazing treatment of this massive boondoggle there, thank you.
I have a 5 kW solar system only to try and save a few bucks and can I say after three years it’s a joke ,to start with we are only able to have a max of 20 panels which supposedly produce 250 watt ea .
In the real world I have seen the total produced reach 4 kW only once ,to add to the misery the amount I get a credit on by producing for the grid is capped at a small amount giving me a credit of around $100 ea quarter .
The rest is free for them but they then sell it back to me at almost 40 cents kW ,solar panels are not all that efficient unless they are in a lab under ideal conditions , in the real world you can expect to lose 25-33 percent effiency which is never told to anyone when buying a system .
Robert: As far as I can tell, solar domestic hot water is probably cost effective in most places where hard freezes aren’t an issue — the tropics, Northern Australia, SoCal, etc. Solar PV however only pencils out (maybe) where alternatives are outrageously costly — e.g Hawaii. Solar PV mongers aren’t likely to tell you or anyone else that.
Ahhh! Follow the white rabbit. Solar water heating USED to be the most cost effective method to “Go Green” prior to about 2008 when subsidies and net metering were initiated for PV. SWH benefitted from the subsidies too (as the units were still prohibitively expensive in freeze areas), however, net metering had the effect of changing the entire market. SWH is pretty much out of the marketplace now. PV has taken over. Net metering means that the utilities HAVE to purchase/credit your solar produced power at the time of the day when they don’t need it, for 3, 4 or more times the price than it costs them to produce. Then those same utilities HAVE to sell/debit that power back to you at peak times for no net charge, up to the point of break even when they have supplied you with everything that you supplied them. Meanwhile everyone else is paying for the line upkeep and subsidizing the PV owners so that the utilities can buy their power at retail rates. I just shake my head at the stupidity of it all.
A cartoon depicting the flow and cost/profit would be educational. Probably would add incoming energy from other states just to add how convoluted it becomes.
Alas, I have no skills to do such a thing.
knutesea
20 years if they are crystalline.
Danke
So 5 years of free input then reinvestment needed. Got it.
Solar systems are sold by enticing buyers with the idea of being self sufficient and selling energy back to the grid. This is exactly the wrong approach for solar. Use it to displace some of your individual base load. Up here in the north, we use ours to generate heat in the winter. In the summer we hook it up to a small water tank in series with the main water heater. (although next year it goes to a split ductless A/C unit). No expensive electronics necessary. Faster payback time.
also, I agree. I once maxed out at 75% efficiency with my system. mid winter, snow on the ground.
As an offset to your baseload.
Such a straightforward approach.
Did you depend on a rebate for cost/benefit when you purchased the system ?
No. Paid full price.
Using it as a baseload replacement eliminates many of the associated costs. In the winter we simply hook the wires from the panels across a resistive heating element. In our case, several 300 watt 120V incandescent light bulbs. No batteries needed. No charge controllers. No power inverters. Just 20$ worth of extension cord and light bulbs. 3 panels in series gives about 90 volts dc, so each bulb pumps 168 watts into the house. (90*90/120/120*300). The lower dc voltage means the bulbs will last for many years. Summer is the trick. Hot water is the easiest solution. Again a simple resistive heating element for preheating hot water. Gotta make sure you use the hot water though. So this year we spang for a charge controller and a pure sine wave inverter and some golf cart batteries. Not really very expensive, but now we’ll run a small A/C unit while the sun shines.
It’ll take 15 years to pay me back for the entire system. And I bought the panels when they were close to 2.50 per watt. Much cheaper now.
Thanks for the informative reply. Stoopid question concerning PVS … do the solar panels have a known lifespan ? What parts are you likely to have to replace after 15 years.
I appreciate the common sense approach and forthrite answers. 15 years is the most common answer I hear for payback and yes I realize there are several variables … 15 years is the most common.