Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball

Courts will not listen to or judge scientific disputes. The basic argument is that it is “your paper” against “their paper” and they are not qualified to judge. This was the issue when I participated in appeals to the US Supreme Court over actions of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). It is also the case in the three lawsuits filed against me. They are charges of defamation and not about the science. The lawsuits are effectively Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation (SLAPP) or a legal form of ad hominem attack. The question is, if I am so wrong about the science, as they claim, then why the lawsuits? The answer is because they cannot say I am not qualified, although they tried, and my ability to explain the complexities of climate science in a way the public understands threatens them.
The same problems confront any discussion in a formal hearing about climate science. Politicians are no better equipped or qualified to determine a science confrontation than the Courts. Scientists who participated in the December 8, 2015, Subcommittee on Space, Science, and Competitiveness, Senate Hearings were exposed to such a dilemma. They found themselves in a forum where they were not qualified to provide the answers to questions and thus effectively lost the case. There is a solution to the challenge, but neither they nor those who organized the hearings understood it.
My presentation at the first Heartland Climate Conference in New York explained the challenges faced by the scientists identified pejoratively as Deniers in the Senate Hearings. Many listened but the few that understood were people involved in communicating science to the public. They knew the pitfalls and the techniques necessary. I underscored my point by saying that Al Gore’s movie deserved an Oscar because it was a brilliant piece of propaganda produced in the fantasyland of Hollywood. They knew how to dramatize the science to catch and hold people’s attention. Chief Justice Burton of the UK Court ruled it was propaganda in the week before Gore received his Nobel Prize, but did not order that it not be shown in the schools, even though it had nine scientific errors. Instead, he ordered that students be apprized of the problems and then shown another documentary for balance. Unfortunately, this assumes that students and teachers can determine who is right and who is wrong.
My message in New York was if the Skeptics are to counteract Hollywood they must understand and apply the same basic techniques. They must abandon the idea that getting access to Washington and participating in public hearings before Congress will achieve the goal of educating the public to the scientific truth. They must show how “Their paper” was deliberately falsified in terms the public can understand. The recent US Senate hearings failed because the “Deniers” explained the scientific problems with the science of “Their Paper.” The politicians and public didn’t understand the difference. Even if they entertained the idea that “Their Paper” was wrong they were confronted with the question of whether the errors were from incompetence or corruption, something the presenters of “Your Paper” were not able or willing to answer.
The title of the Senate Hearing “Data or Dogma? Promoting Open Inquiry in the Debate over the Magnitude of Human Impact on Earth’s Climate” guaranteed it would fail with most people. It failed despite the imbalance in presenters with four, Dr. John Christie, Dr. Judith Curry, Dr. Will Happer, and Mark Steyn arguing for Data, and Dr. David Titley tepidly arguing for Dogma. The imbalance is not surprising. I know it is difficult to get someone to debate the Dogma and that if they are willing to debate it means they know very little about the science. The failure was not the fault of the presenters rather it was the entire problem of arguing science in a political forum. It is similar to why courts won’t consider scientific disputes.
Dr. Curry signaled the defeat when she correctly demanded the right to defend her scientific integrity against the charge of being called a denier. I was surprised because I thought Dr. Curry learned the lesson about how nasty people are when you challenge the prevailing wisdom. Early in the ongoing saga about global warming, Dr. Curry leaned toward the AGW theory and IPCC science thus making her acceptable to her academic colleagues. Then, to her everlasting credit, Dr. Curry, tried to pursue proper scientific method by inviting Steve McIntyre to her University, Georgia Tech, to make a presentation on his analysis of the ‘hockey stick’. McIntyre commented about the reaction.
Readers of this blog should realize that Judy Curry has been (undeservedly) criticized within the climate science community for inviting me to Georgia Tech. Given that the relatively dry nature of my formal interests and presentation (linear algebra, statistics, tree rings etc.) and that I’ve been invited to present by a panel of the National Academy of Sciences, it seems strange that such a presentation to scientists should provoke controversy, but it did.
You cannot imagine how nasty people get until you experience it by challenging their prevailing wisdom. Dr. Curry learned as I did that the surprising and most emotionally disturbing attacks came from colleagues.
Skeptics were pleased with the performance of the presenters in Washington because they know about the science and the issues. What they forget is that the majority don’t know. Skeptics must first step out of their bias and view events objectively. Then they must understand the subjective perspective of those who don’t understand the science, which includes most of the public, the media, and the politicians.
I respect the science and integrity of those who appeared to explain the Data, however, it was difficult to watch them struggle with the political posturing. This observation is not a criticism because they are scientists and want to avoid politics as much as possible. It is as basic as the fact that by simply appearing for the Data side automatically placed them in the Republican camp. Their presence and arguments made them political. They also lacked understanding of the nature of the debate and how it exposed the Dogma side.
I regret to say the Dogma side won because the Data side failed to deal with the real questions implied in their argument. From the Dogma and citizens perspective science is science, so why are there disagreements? They see the Data presenters as representatives of a political perspective. They think this because they ask why would scientists at the IPCC present misleading data, or worse, manipulate the data? What is their motive? The Data presenter’s political motive is clear to them: they are directly or indirectly under the political or financial influence of the energy sector.
For most people the proof that the Data presenters were political was their failure to answer the questions posed by Senator Markey and others about the 97% consensus and the warmest year on record. In fact, they could not answer them because they require a political answer explaining why they falsified the data and their motive? What answer would you give?
Mark Steyn gave an erudite, humorous, blunt, assessment of the politics involved. The problem is he began by saying he is not a climate scientist. Unfortunately, this only served to underscore the view that his fellow Data panelists were also political. There was no political spokesperson for the Dogma side: Senator Markey knew it wasn’t necessary.
The problem for Data presenters is they are climate scientists, specialists each in one small area of the complex, generalist discipline of climatology. It would require dozens of such specialists to cover the subject and be prepared to answer all the questions and still they could not answer the political or motive questions.
How To Manage A Debate
For approximately three years the Roy Green radio program in Canada offered unlimited airtime for anyone who would debate the issue of Global warming with me. Nobody took the offer! Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party in Canada, told Roy she wouldn’t debate, but would get someone to do it. A month later she told him that she couldn’t get anyone. This is why I was surprised when Ms. May agreed to a debate with me on the Ian Jessop radio program a few months ago. I won’t speculate on her motive.
I know I won the debate because Ms. May resorted to a personal attack at the end with a veiled threat of “another lawsuit.” It didn’t surprise me, although I was amazed and pleased about how many people picked up on it.
The problem with a global warming debate between two scientists is that the public would not understand; they wouldn’t even know who won. In a debate between a scientist and anyone else the scientist inevitably loses because it becomes about emotions, especially the exploitation of fear. Besides, there is always the fall back precautionary principle that we should act regardless of the evidence.
These conditions formed the basis of my thinking in preparing for my debate with Ms. May. I knew as a lawyer she would try to use detail, to find an “error” to justify rejecting the entire case. I also knew that Ms. May believed, as co-author of Global Warming For Dummies, that she knew the subject.
Ms. May did as I expected and discussed the scientific data and detail. I knew this would go over the head of most listeners as the Data specialist’s information did in Washington. I acted with discipline by not even correcting the many errors Ms. May made. There was no point in getting bogged down in data and detail that few understood. Besides, few would even know who was correct even after the explanation. It is the state of confusion and uncertainty about who to believe that is common for most people.
I did the opposite and provided general comments and examples speaking to the Dogma. The first thing was to undermine the credibility of the IPCC. Most people think that the IPCC study climate and climate change in its entirety. Once they learn that the definition given to them by the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) directed them only to study human causes of change, they realize the limitations of their work. You then reinforce the point by explaining that you can’t possibly determine human causes unless you know and understand natural causes. You can reinforce thay point by saying that failed weather and climate forecasts prove we don’t understand the natural causes.
Next, you counter the myth that a majority of scientists (97%?) agree. It is too technical to present the arguments so well laid out in Lord Monckton’s analysis. It is easier and more effective to explain that very few scientists ever read the IPCC Reports. They accept, not unreasonably, the results of other scientists without question, just as the public do. The confession by Klaus-Eckhart Puls does not require data or scientific understanding. It expresses emotions people understand, including surprise, shock, and then anger that anyone can appreciate. The IPCC produced scientific documents that decimated all scientific rules, regulations and practices. You don’t need to know that when a scientist publically admits his failure in accepting, and passing on their corrupted science without question.
“Ten years ago I simply parroted what the IPCC told us. One day I started checking the facts and data—first I started with a sense of doubt but then I became outraged when I discovered that much of what the IPCC and the media were telling us was sheer nonsense and was not even supported by any scientific facts and measurements. To this day I still feel shame that as a scientist I made presentations of their science without first checking it.”
He wasn’t fooled; he just didn’t look.
I wrote much of my book The Deliberate Corruption of Climate Science years before it was published. I delayed publication because I knew from teaching Science to Arts students for 25 years, giving hundreds of public lectures, and participating in several documentaries that the public was not ready. In many ways, it was still released too early. I know many skeptics shy away from it because it dares to answer the question implied but avoided by the Senate Hearing; if the data is falsified who would do that and why? The question that automatically arises when you argue the Data or Skeptic side is MOTIVE. Not only did the Dogma win, but they also scored points by the inability of the Data specialists to answer questions that required providing the motive.
Elaine Dewar provided the motive after spending five days with Maurice Strong at the UN where he created the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the UNFCCC and the IPCC.
Strong was using the U.N. as a platform to sell a global environment crisis and the Global Governance Agenda.
Even if the Data specialists or Mark Steyn spoke to this motive Senator Markey would argue, falsely but effectively, that it was necessary to save the planet and dismiss them as conspiracy theorists. We are still a long way from the point when explaining the motive to the public would resonate. It requires exposition of the crimes first, and that requires explaining the science in ways the public understand. One factor that prevents those that are able is seeing what happened to Dr. Curry, myself, or several others. Just ask Dr. Richard Lindzen. The price paid for even seeking the truth in climate science is financially and emotionally high, and few are willing to pay the price. Besides, the Dogmatists and the public believe energy companies’ reward them well for their efforts.
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Politicizing, Pointing fingers and legalizing the science of climate change, global warming and GHG is an indication that bureaucrats, Wall street, Main Street and capitalist want to figure out a way to use the Non-fossil fuel economies to exploit the masses for tax revenue, dividends and capital gains. They want to maintain the same financial infrastructure that is in the gas and oil economy, in the clean energy non-fossil fuel economy, but, clean energy/non-fossil fuel economy is sustainable not exploitable.
Politicizing, Pointing fingers and legalizing the science of climate change, global warming and GHG is an indication that bureaucrats, Wall street, Main Street and capitalist want to figure out a way to use the Non-fossil fuel economies to exploit the masses for tax revenue, dividends and capital gains. They want to maintain the same financial infrastructure that is in the gas and oil economy, in the clean energy non-fossil fuel economy, but, clean energy/non-fossil fuel economy is sustainable not exploitable. The fact is, regardless of the condition of the climate, Global warming and Green House Gases, getting out of the gas and oil economy is good for everyone, it lowers taxes, cleans up noise pollution, decrease congestion, reduces stress, reduces tension, creates job, expands innovation and makes our world a better place to live in.
Derek Rolle commented: “….Politicizing….. The fact is, regardless of the condition of the climate, Global warming and Green House Gases, getting out of the gas and oil economy is good for everyone…. and makes our world a better place to live in….”
So it’s OK to lie because the end justifies the means? I hope you’re a non US citizen or felon and can’t vote.
I generally don’t reply, but this “creating jobs” thing needs a rebuttal. Jobs can be created for sure, by marshalling labour to do tasks, but the real question is does it increase the wealth of society? This question is necessary because it does not follow that more jobs equals more wealth. There were plenty of jobs in the middle ages, but very little wealth.
What creates wealth is productivity. That is, how much each job can produce in terms of its inputs. The reality is that at the present time, renewable energy has a higher price in net inputs that fossil fuel, and using it as an energy input produces higher net costs everywhere down the line. In simple terms, more resources (labour, land, capital and energy) are required to produce a given product under a renewable energy society than under a fossil fuel society – with the sole exception of hydro.
The end result of significant move to renewables is a decrease in real wages of society, assuming they retain their jobs in the first place. The consequences of this is reduced ability of society to provide for its members – healthcare, social security and all the other benefits of a modern fossil fuelled age.
So creating jobs don’t mean a thing, though recent experience shows that jobs are actually lost elsewhere. in other words, not only is wealth creation and real wages diminished, but there is a net job loss anyway.
The welfare of a population , on average , is
| tangibleProduct % count |.The fewer jobs required , the more time people have to go fishing .They are repeating the “broken window fallacy”. It’s easy to fall prey to, even if you are aware of it.
Yes, DB did a nice writeup about that …
The thing is the True Believers of all these social justice movements are not too far removed from the Weathermen philosophy of burn it down, burn it all down. They think western culture is the root of the world’s woes and quite frankly the current society doesn’t appreciate their superior values.
Start from there if you want to understand what your dealing with.
“getting out of the gas and oil economy is good for everyone, it lowers taxes, cleans up noise pollution, decrease congestion, reduces stress, reduces tension, creates job, expands innovation and makes our world a better place to live in.”
But the countries that have pioneered the plunge into renewables are hurting, mostly, as a result, and are looking at more hurt, especially the lead pioneer, Spain.
Roger
your missing the point roger.
getting off of fossil fuels will just make the world a happier/less stressful place.
Dr Ball. I think you are on the right track. We must have good explanations as to why would scientist want to deceive us. We need to concentrate on the scientist deception even though many others especially the MSM are involved because the scientist are at the root of the misinformation.
You correctly stated “Strong was using the U.N. as a platform to sell a global environment crisis and the Global Governance Agenda”. The trouble here is that very few people know what Global Governance is and if you explained it they wouldn’t believe you because they couldn’t imagine why anyone other than crazy mean people would want to do that. I will admit that explaining why good smart people want Global Governance is the real hard part. My suggestion is to request of your audience to research the history of those who have tried for themselves and research the reasons why well intentioned people want Global Governance.
This is the clip they should have played for Congress about the “Hide the Decline.” It not only would have made the point, it would have everyone laughing. https://youtu.be/QowL2BiGK7o?t=59m42s
knutesea: ‘Your opponent is taking advantage of the path of least resistance.’
Yes. And, as yesterdays vote on spending demonstrates, the gatekeepers of that path are asleep at the wheel.
Cruz’s talent and energy are being wasted.
It’s never been about climate;
it’s never been about science;
it’s always been about power, political power harnessing the science of climate to chain the opposition to further their power … they get you coming and going.
Heads you lose, tails they win …
1) why do you call it a “failure”, were you expecting some kind of epiphany ?
2) I’m really out of ammo after #1…….
I am not a scientist, I do follow politics quite closely. I regard science as being about application of common sense and am happy to make judgements even when I do not understand every detail of the rationality.
I think people are quite gullible, they do not really want to look at science in detail and they want simple answers. They read the temperature of arguments through their emotional response, and they come down on the side of the argument that they emotionally identify with. The Dogmatists (I like that phrase very much) have provided an emotional narrative that has been bolstered by denigration and dishonest control of language. They got a head start, developed a hate campaign and cultivated politicians and journalists, and at the same time they called themselves broad minded and free thinkers.
Scientists work with a very small part of their brains mostly identified with the rational executive area called the Pre-frontal cortex. They build their scaffold of facts and balance new facts on top of that scaffold, then they argue in their ivory towers in debates that are intense, remote and conducted to certain rules. These people try to avoid emotional language or being emotionally lead into decision-making. To my mind their world is a false reality, but it is a productive reality that creates scientific advancement that leads to technological discoveries and principles of engineering, medicine and prepares us to face down problems in a rational way.
Scientist wrongly believe they can separate emotion and science, emotion is at the base of brain processes and science and scientific discovery. I think this idea is anathema to some scientists, but not all. I think scientists can easily go through life without acknowledging that their work is emotionally led and still be good scientists.
How do we address the heinous nonsense put out by the core of the religion of CAGW? Firstly you have use scientists who are not afraid to acknowledge emotion, and are willing to confront the emotionally charged political world out side their ivory towers. These are quite rare people but quite common on this forum, I expect you are one of those.
Secondly you need people like Mark Styne who are willing to acknowledge that science is little more than the application of common sense, and not frightened to debate with scientists.
Thirdly you need arguments that have been sifted and rehearsed and rewritten into language that ordinary people understand.
Fourthly you need patience and cunning, a willingness to bite when your prey stumbles.
I am not sure you lost the presentation, but it may appear to have happened that way. Ideas are never changed in full sight, they are changed in secret processes of the mind that even we ourselves cannot see. Our ideas change in our dreams, they change after seeding and after long periods of apparently nothing going on. We do not wake up with changed minds, we simply find ourselves with new ways of looking at things and changed emotional responses. Changing our minds has very little to do with rationality but exposure to rationality (or common sense) often has a big part to play in the process.
My guess is that the presentation you speak of was part of that process of building new ways of looking at things and you had moderate success.
I save this and will refer to it often.
Thanks
I think I should have also added that one thing wins arguments more than any other – likability. People are attracted to and listen to likeable people, and are turned off and do not listen to people they do not like. The skeptics have been underdogs but still disliked because they were portrayed as small minded and oil funded thugs, but in recent years the tables have begun to tuen. In that presentation the Senator appeared to be the small minded bully but Styne was a bit too strident in his response, people probably warmed to Curry more.
It’s like fencing except it’s emotional repartee instead of with a foil.
The 3 primary styles I see are :
1. the bully (using authority to stifle reply)
2. the half truther (exaggerator)
3. the paralyzing perfectionist (it will never be safe enough)
Each style captures deep seated insecurities of the listener and suspends the intellect.
Naturally, people let people they like into their brains.
I think that is right, people let people they like into their brains.
I am a big fan of William James point that their are two ways of thinking, rational (he calls it objective) and plastic. The plastic way is much more natural to our physical brain set up and primary because it was the original method, rationality was an overlay. Plasticity is now all the rage in neuroscience, yet William James caught on to this idea shortly after Darwin discovered evolution. Evolution and brain set up are really the same side of the same coin, the plastic side, but it is counter intuitive to see the relationship.
It is interesting that Art is found in every culture, I think this is because Art is really rooted in the plastic method of looking at things, but Science is a much rarer occurrence. We learn to think scientifically like we learn to play the piano. We can do it well after we train and discipline ourselves, not everyone learns to do it.
Julian
I like these four references. They took me beyond the logical disciplines I was taught.
Dealing With People You Can’t Stand Brinkman
33 Strategies of Warfare Green
Macachiavellian Intelligence Maestrieri
The True Believer Hoffer
I appreciate the conversation.
I know none of those references. My journey has been through studying drawing and the grammar of sight. After I saw the William James quote on Wikipedia things began to fall into place, and it broke a log jam of thirty years. Drawing is a window into the brain with this conflict between objectivity and plasticity written right across it.
There was a period of about 70 years during the twentieth century when everything to do with consciousness studies came to an abrupt halt. These sorts of discussions (studying consciousness processes) we are having were taboo because of the Behaviourist had very strict “objective thinking” criteria in their “scientific” method. Behaviourists created a consensus not unlike CAGW consensus, they created a taboo that was not broken until the late 1980’s. After the taboo was broken the whole field of neuroscience became a multidisciplinary crowd sourced jamboree. Writing this reply has made me wonder is WUWT and similar forums have many parallels with the anti-behaviourists of the late 1980s. This is a very interesting new thought for me.
Deny you have a war on somebody’s primary asset while seeking their vote.
Undermine its value from behind the scenes once elected.
Come clean on the war when the end is near.
Buy the asset while telling others to sell it.
Offer the affected people 30B dollars and hope they will vote for you.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/11/12/clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/
Will it work ?
Cajones
Every speaker, including Cruz. should have started off with “i am part of the 97%” All it takes is agreeing there has been warming, and some of it is probably anthropogenic.
I thought Admiral Titley looked foolish when asked what percentage of the warming was caused by human activity. His answer was ‘a significant amount’. That’s no answer at all. It’s certainly not a scientific answer. Of course, he couldn’t give a number as it is totally unquantifiable.
To me, if one percent of the warming was anthropgenic I would call that a very significant amount. I expect he was trying to give the impression that it was much, much higher.
the 97% consensus and the warmest year on record. In fact, they could not answer them because they require a political answer explaining why they falsified the data and their motive? What answer would you give?
I’m one of those who believe skeptics lost that particular debate because Marky was able to sweep aside all the arguments with his statements about the 97% and the warmest year on record, statements which went basically (to the best of my knowledge) unopposed. The fact of the matter is that these cannot be easily responded to because they are the most nefarious of all lies, the half truth. Further, finding an answer that anyone in the public can understand is not such a simple task. This is science we’re talking about. If it was easy enough to put in words that an eighth grader could understand, it would be science. It would just be common knowledge.
When the 97% meme arises, there is no (in response to your question above) any single right answer. It depends who you are talking to, what their back ground is, the context of the discussion to that point, and what your goal is at that point in responding.
If the person is scientifically competent => Of course 97% agree. It is in regard to sensitivity and endangerment that there is disagreement, and on those points it is substantial. Even the IPCC admits that. Are you disagreeing with the IPCC?
If the person is frothing at the mouth green => Yes of course. Are you referring to the Oreskes et al study or the Cook et al study? (Know your stiuff about both of them before playing this card. The point is that most of them will know nothing about either which puts them back on their heels in a hurry and you explain the background of both to them, poking some gigantic holes along the way).
So there’s no one right answer. In fact, all the answers are wrong, some are just less wrong. A half lie can be shrunk into a few words, a full debunking takes pages and pages. The answer must evolve to meet the audience and situation.
But a thread where readers are encouraged to provide their best snappy answers to stupid statements would be both a worthwhile endeavor and a hoot to boot.
The obvious answer to the warmest year on record is that the record only goes back about 120 years and is spotty at best. I think there is also an issue with the size of the error bars which introduces further uncertainty.
+ 100
Mr Hoffer
Perhaps you make it too hard on yourself. The half truth is nothing more than an attempt to draw some degree of appreciation to your cause. It’s an exaggeration because someone/group wants to be noticed AND appreciated for being who they are.
At its core an NGO is a group that comes together to being attention and appreciation to their cause.
The more you ignore them, the louder and bigger the exaggerations will become. Find of the kernel of truth in the half truth. Acknowledge the validity of their existence. Help them calm down about the need to be recognized.
In olden days you could lop off the heads of those that were annoying or needy. For better or worse that is no longer allowed and new skills are required.
IF you are successful in addressing the half truth by introducing the other half that they leave out, they will then likely move over to that of perfectionism … that the degree of uncertainty in the argument is so VAST that all is lost and puppies and baby squirrels will perish in the chaos. You see this all the time when alarmists suck skeptics into nitpicking minutia in a desperate attempt to retain mayhem. It’s also an easy bait for skeptics because scientists in general think the answers lie in answering increasing levels of detail. The key for skeptics is to constantly couch the level of minutia in a perspective of DEGREE of importance. Obviously not all level of detail matters equally AND alarmists take advantage of skeptics who don’t discuss risk management well.
Hell, its basically how warmists won their decision in SCOTUS Mass v EPA.
They definitely have ‘the high ground’ in this battle.
For one very simple reason.
The media given a choice between a ‘scare’ headline and a ‘this is a subtle and not very threatening’ headline will always go for the former!
Isn’t the main point that we are looking at less than 1 degree C increase since 1880? The appearance of rising, flat, or cooling temperatures depends on which length of time you choose for your graph. But at the end of the day it has risen less than 1 degree.
Many of the early temperature readings have been adjusted and there is uncertainty as to their accuracy.
Measurement of temperature in terms of variation from an average rather than plotting the baseline temperature creates the illusion of significant increases and this has happened because of the newness of climate science and the lack of defined procedures.
Does a world average temperature have any real meaning at all?
This possible small increase in temperature has not resulted in any increase in natural disasters so why are we about to spend so much money on a misdirected effort to stop further warming?
“Does a world average temperature have any real meaning at all?”
And even if it does, is it not less significant if any warming is mainly at night, or in the Arctic?
And how, I wish someone would explain, is a tiny bit of warming (so tiny it would not even kick your air conditioner on if it occurred in your living room in summer) a bad thing on a planet which is by and large cold enough to kill an unprotected person over a large part of the surface all year ’round, and cold enough to do so over far more of the surface on a seasonal basis?
The planet is mostly way to cold! The warming is slight if it even exists at all!
How is that part of this BS not registering in the brain of Martin Z. Anybody?
Courts of law are qualified only to adjudge on points of law. They should disqualify themselves if asked to adjudge on anything else. If for instance they were asked to decide whether Mozarts Requiem was better or more right and convincing than Brahms Requiem they certainly would refuse to take the case. Why not, then, do they do likewise if asked to decide between two scientific theories??
But they will adjudicate on complaints of plagiarism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_plagiarism
Mass v EPA was a brilliant expertise coup. They had nothing and yet convinced the court that the UNCERTAINTY was enough to require the agency to regulate CO2.
knutesea,
“Uncertainty”! And thus, the once largely unbiased U.S. legal system crumbles under the weight of partisan politics.
That loss of ethics accelerated with courts’ upholding of “hate crime” legislation. Something is either a crime or it isn’t; by making ‘hate crimes’ a special class to appease the race-baiters, thought crimes can easily be prosecuted now. They know what you’re thinking, see? That’s their claim, anyway.
My pessimism was stoked when Chief Justice John Roberts flip-flopped on Obamacare. All the pundits in the media were speculating about whether one or the other Justices would cave under the Administration’s pressure. But no one even considered that Roberts might support Obamacare. They all knew that he would find Obamacare unconstitutional because among other good reasons, it forces consumers to use their after-tax earnings to buy a particular product, even if they do not want it. That has never survived judicial review since the beginning of the Republic. And Roberts was appointed by G.W. Bush. End of story, right?
But Roberts caved! So either they gave him something he craved, or more likely, they found a big skeleton in his closet. Whatever the reason, he traded his ethics for something he thought was worth more than the good of the country.
The courts were the last citizens’ stand against a tyrannical gov’t (I won’t go into the Declaration of Independence here). So now the highest court in the land has been corrupted: CO2 is officially a “pollutant”. Now the door is wide open to ‘carbon’ taxes.
Does anyone here think the next presidential election is unimportant?
DB
All very true.
If you locked me in a box and let me out after 10 years and then told me that CO2 would be taxed, I’d probably wonder if I somehow was transposed to another dimension.
It is shocking that it was pulled off in such a blitzkrieg moment at the SCOTUS level.
At some point the real path to successful ending of this ruse is to revisit the SCOTUS decision.
The weakness is that too much UNCERTAINTY existed for SCOTUS to say no, you can’t regulate it.
Skeptics have a far better case these days and some organization of new NGOs should challenge that ruling.
You and I both know that Hillary will be a hard one to unseat from her throne. I’d rather have a plan B than put all my eggs in that basket.
Dr Ball.
It takes time for an orchestrated deception to collapse.
Mark Twain put it best; “A lie is halfway around the world before truth gets its boots on.”
This hysteria over plant food is self defeating, when the ordinary citizen is hit hard in the pocketbook by the corruption and stupidity CAGW produces, then the value of this senate committee will become clear.
Reason takes time.
If the past weather cycles repeat, the weather will provide the final cure to the deluded.
Freezing in the dark does wonders for irrational behaviour.
This emotional argument between alarmists and skeptics will not end until there is a prolonged, undeniable decrease in the earth’s atmospheric temperatures.
Any discussions between now and then with the devotees of the climate alarm religion is a waste of time in the same way that trying to convert any religious person to a new religion would be. Yes, one in a thousand might actually listen and convert but it was not worth the time. The only way to get people to believe in the scientific method and be skeptical is to get them young before they’ve picked their religion.
I am very tired of hearing all this bellyaching going on here.
I’ve spent two years pitching data and sound bites here at WUWT and other places reinforcing the message that THE SUN CAUSES WARMING, COOLING, AND EXTREME EVENTS, NOT CO2!, and instead of trying to understand what that all means, what I’ve regularly gotten in return is called names or ignored.
The second solar cycle #24 peak in Feb 2015 of high TSI kicked off the El Nino and brought barely ‘record’ high temperatures during the year. High temps this year were caused by eight straight years of increasing TSI. In order, as of last week, annual average TSI from http://lasp.colorado.edu/lisird/tss/sorce_tsi_24hr.csv
2015, 1361.4487
2014, 1361.3966
2013, 1361.3587
2012, 1361.2413
2011, 1361.0752
2003, 1361.0262
2004, 1360.9192
2010, 1360.8027
2005, 1360.7518
2006, 1360.6735
2007, 1360.5710
2009, 1360.5565
2008, 1360.5382
The last 90 days of TSI have also seen some substantial peaks driving fourth quarter temps higher:
http://lasp.colorado.edu/data/sorce/total_solar_irradiance_plots/images/tim_level3_tsi_24hour_3month_640x480.png
Solar heat has been building up since 2008, and is now set to drop off, and temps will follow, as they did during the last solar minimum years. When the skeptical community finally catches on to how the sun does this and starts communicating it together in all venues, including the Congress, we are going to be unstoppable.
I think you would be interested in this post on solar effects:
https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/paul-k-mini-paradox-becomes-a-major-paradox/
My astronomer father showed the solar cycle clearly (thanks to the solar observatory at Kitt Peak) many, many years ago.
We are going into a ‘quiet sun’ era now and it is painfully obvious what this means.
If my comment to Bob Weber ever gets out of moderation because I linked to a post at that “tall fellow” and his site the “talk Sh@P” there is an interesting post on the sun and a paradox. (why is linking to that site a crime here?)
Hello everyone,
As your friendly neighbourhood environmental scientist (postdoc, trained as a chemical engineer), I think it is important to point out that in my *personal* experience every non-climate scientist I know (including plenty of theoretical physicists, material engineers, etc.) is completely convinced that AGW is a real problem. Now, I’m not saying that all these scientists are right. It’s perfectly possible that we are all wrong. This is the main reason why I keep visiting this blog, to keep myself updated on the evidence against AGW. But I feel the need to mention this becaus dr. Ball presents this as if the only real scientists are on the sceptic side and they are losing the debate because they can’t compete communication wise with the silver tongued politicians on the ‘warmista’ side, with ‘normal’ scientist kept hostage in between. But the truth is that I and many of my colleagues understand the arguments presented here on this blog perfectly fine and just don’t find them all that convincing. I think the way forward for the sceptics here should be not to try and walk the route of politics (mainly USA focussed and irrelevant to the rest of the world) but to focus on writing articles that could convince open minded scientists. And in order to do that you’d need to have an honest discussion on why your arguments haven’t been picked up on as much as you’d like. Hint: it’s not because of the UN, or personal foul play or ‘green religion’.
That being said, some of the more science and data focussed posts here are quite interesting so keep up the good work.
Cheers
Ben
Who are these open minded scientists that you refer to? The fact is, the open minded scientists have indeed been convinced by the sceptics arguments. There are a whole list of scientists that more or less agree with the sceptical position. Apart from those mentioned at the hearing, there are Lindzen, Choi, Soon, Akasofo, Pielke sr, Loehle, Balliunus, Carter, Singer, Tisdale, Spencer, Morner, Dyson and many more.
Your assertion sounds more like a cheeky attempt to exclude any scientist who are convinced by the sceptical arguments from the pool of scientists who you claim haven’t been convinced by the sceptical arguments.
Yes, that is my point exactly! There gotta be, rough guess, at least ten million scientist out there. So if it’s really as obvious that the AGW phenomenon is fake then you’d expect at the very least.. what, a hundred thousand vocal critics with serious scientific credentials, and at least a million that would be revving up their anonymous commenting engines on a blog like this. So the point I’m trying to make is, why are you guys so bad at convincing non-climate scientist like me? I don’t have a stake in climate science and up until now I’m mostly funded by private companies. And yet…
Dr. Ball is obviously frustrated. I’m just commenting that he could point his frustration into a line of enquiring that might be more fruitful.
Obviously comments like those below accusing polite and enquiring scientist like me of being a troll obviously does not help 😉
benbenben says:
…in my *personal* experience every non-climate scientist I know (including plenty of theoretical physicists, material engineers, etc.) is completely convinced that AGW is a real problem.
Really? Both of them are unconvinced?
And:
…sceptics here should… focus on writing articles that could convince open minded scientists.
Which leaves benben out of the picture. He is about as open-minded as a Jehovah’s Witness.
Our closed-minded pal benben is trotting out numbers now, purporting to support the “consensus” argument (he didn’t say that, but it’s obvious).
But benben and his ilk never want to discuss the 31,000+ scientists and engineers who co-signed their names to the OISM statement. Why not?
The reason why not is because neither benben nor any of his alarmist pals can come anywhere near that number, with the names of scientists and engineers who disagree with the OISM statement. And if OISM is correct, then there’s nothing to be alarmed about.
As the great Robert Heinlein wrote:
If you’ve got the truth you can demonstrate it. Talking doesn’t prove it.
benben is just talking. He has no measurements quantifying AGW. None at all; no one does. Unless benben can produce verifiable measurements showing the fraction of AGW out of all global warming, including natural warming from the LIA and other natural events and cycles, he is simply a true believer in something that is based on his eco-religious faith.
Heinlein also wrote:
Belief gets in the way of learning.
That is benben’s central problem: he has his belief, but he can’t back it up with measurements. Until he accepts that data is essential to his conjecture that ‘AGW is a real problem’, he will never learn. Measurements are data. Where are the measurements quantifying AGW?
benben sounds more like sousou.
Ben, you are just a Warmist troll. Though you may try to use your training (supposed) and politeness as cover, your tactics employing logical fallacies give you away. Specifically, you use the tried-and-true Warmist tactics of Argument from Authority and Argument from Consensus. Your “suggestions” about the way forward for Skeptics/Climate Realists are both trite and disingenuous.
Trite, perhaps, but disingenuous? I’m just curious about the lack of self reflection and capacity for constructive debate here. And I, especially in this post, the assertion that there is only a very small group of nefariouss people behind AGW, completely ignoring the huge majority of scientists worldwide that support policy like a global carbon tax. That is the interesting question no? Why can’t you guys win over all the material scientist in my department? They have absolutely no stake AGW related research. Why do you think that is?
benbenben says:
…the lack of self reflection and capacity for constructive debate here…
benben, that statement is a textbook example of psychological ‘projection’: imputing your own faults onto others.
You refuse to engage in constructive debate. Rather, you make assertions that cannot be verified:
the huge majority of scientists worldwide that support policy like a global carbon tax… all the material scientist in my department… they have absolutely no stake AGW related research… a hundred thousand vocal critics with serious scientific credentials… at least a million that would be revving up their anonymous commenting engines on a blog like this… I don’t have a stake in climate science… I’m mostly funded by private companies… every non-climate scientist I know (including plenty of theoretical physicists, material engineers, etc.) is completely convinced that AGW is a real problem… the truth is that I and many of my colleagues understand the arguments presented here and just don’t find them all that convincing… you’d need to have an honest discussion on why your arguments haven’t been picked up on as much as you’d like …&etc.
Every one of your assertions is completely unverifiable. They are merely your opinions, nothing more. They do not contain one verifiable fact. But they are your whole argument.
This is a science site, benben. Maybe you should be commenting on a religion blog, or a blog about politics. You are not convincing unless you can support your belief that there is dangerous man-made global warming happening. And that takes data: measurements and observations.
But you have no credible evidence. You have no data, no measurements, and no supporting observations that preclude other causes. The truth is, you’ve got nothing but your belief.
That isn’t good enough. You can’t support what you believe, so you fall back on your baseless, unverifiable assertions. Your comments are an example of why alarmist scientists refuse to debate any more. When they used to debate, they werre demolished by skeptics. So now they hide out, and argue by press releases, and use spokespeople like the scientific illiterate in the White House.
How about some verifiable data, benben? Give us measurements of what you’re claiming. Show us cause and effect. In other words, argue based on scientific and logical facts, instead of just asserrting what you believe.
When you argue by assertion, like you always do, you lose the argument. As Prof Feynman said, you’re just fooling yourself. You’re not fooling anyone here; you’ve got nothin’, and we see that.
Benben
DB is actually very disciplined and quite good at ferreting out nasty projection.
His command of CAGWs big failures to predict anything is pretty stout.
If you are like anyone else who takes him on, you’ll likely try to immerse him in some increasingly unimportant line of evidence and nitpick at it. It’s what most of the projectors do.
Normally he doesn’t take the bait unless he’s bored.
Good luck, I typically go get a snack and watch.
@ur momisugly benben
You want facts/talking points ?
All ya gotta do is ask 🙂
Ah, but u.k.(us)
Does he (benben) actually want “facts” or does he want easy-to-spew (er, repeat) simple “talking points”?
Hello dbstealey,
It’s always nice to read a responce from you! I’ll respond to both your posts in one go, if you don’t mind. Firstly, Heinlein is awesome. I’m glad we have at least that in common 😉
So, what I am trying to say (and please read the comment of rw below, and my response), is not about data, but about my personal oberservations. Do I have verifiable data that my all my friends and colleagues with a PhD/higher degree support AGW policy? No, and frankly, it’s a fairly bizar request. Please note also that I’m not actually arguing that AGW is or is not fake, I’m interested in *why* there seems to be such a high support for it in the general scientific population (no data, purely my personal experience).
Then, this OISM study. Of course I take your data very seriously dbstealey so I googled it. I found this description:
—–
” When questioned in 1998, OISM’s Arthur Robinson admitted that only 2,100 signers of the Oregon Petition had identified themselves as physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, or meteorologists, “and of those the greatest number are physicists.” This grouping of fields concealed the fact that only a few dozen, at most, of the signatories were drawn from the core disciplines of climate science – such as meteorology, oceanography, and glaciology – and almost none were climate specialists. The names of the signers are available on the OISM’s website, but without listing any institutional affiliations or even city of residence, making it very difficult to determine their credentials or even whether they exist at all. When the Oregon Petition first circulated, in fact, environmental activists successfully added the names of several fictional characters and celebrities to the list, including John Grisham, Michael J. Fox, Drs. Frank Burns, B. J. Honeycutt, and Benjamin Pierce (from the TV show M*A*S*H), an individual by the name of “Dr. Red Wine,” and Geraldine Halliwell, formerly known as pop singer Ginger Spice of the Spice Girls. … Even in 2003, the list was loaded with misspellings, duplications, name and title fragments, and names of non-persons, such as company names.” (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine#Case_Study:_The_Oregon_Petition)
—–
Honestly, for a website built upon examining flaws in data, this is a very shaky survey to base your argument upon, dbstealey 🙂
@ur momisugly Knutesea, yeah, I’m finding his responses quite interesting! Too bad he’s more interested in argueing what he thinks I’m saying instead of what I actually say.
Cheers,
Ben
benben, benben, benben,
You wrote:
‘my response is not about data, but about my personal oberservations.’
Well then, we might as well be debating astrology, Scientology, or phrenology. Let’s all just go to the nearest coffe shop or bar, and discuss why the government is so intent on passing ‘carbon taxes’ without any credible scientific evidence. Or better yet, let’s discuss Dancing With The Stars. Maybe that’s more your interest.
This is a SCIENCE site, benben. There are thousands of blogs on religion, politics, entertainment, and where’s the best Starbucks. You need to find one of those if you’re not going to discuss scientific facts and evidence.
Next, if you’re going to cite a dishonest propaganda blog like ‘sourcewatch’, you are certain to get misinformation. Because they are fabricating things, not OISM. Why would you automatically believe a propaganda blog over a science site?
None of the names listed by ‘sourcewatch’ can be found on the OISM site (with the exception of real people who might happen to have the same name). The names were vetted after submission, and sourcewatch dishonestly tells its readers that those names are counted. They’re not.
Every one of the 31,487 names individually listed by OISM have been vetted and are actual scientists and/or engineers with degrees in the hard sciences. If you have any information that makes you doubt that, please contact their site, and ask. But if you take the misinformation of ‘sourcewatch’ as honest reporting, then it’s no wonder you’re being led astray.
How many professionals would allow their names to be posted online, if they had not authorized it? And further: you keeep avoiding answering my questions, just like everyone else whom I’ve asked:
Can you post the names of only 10% of the OISM’s numbers, saying that the OISM co-signed statement is wrong?
No?
Well then, can you post the names of even ONE PERCENT of the OISM’s 31,487 names?
No?
Then let’s make it real easy: can you find the names of even ONE-TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of the OISM’s co-signers who disagree?
So: either find one of the names claimed by ‘sourcewatch’ on the OISM site, or admit that they’re posting misinformation. And if you can’t even find 0.1% of the number of OISM co-signers, then the “consensus” is OBVIOUSLY on the side of skeptics of the “dangerous AGW” scare.
No wonder you don’t want to discuss facts, benben. You don’t have any that are credible.
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
Well… dbstealey, if you don’t want to talk about the soft side of science, then don’t. You’re free to just not respond to this. Also, I should really point out that the topic of this blog post by dr. Ball is about this soft side, so it is wholly appropriate that I want to talk about that in the comment section of this particular post, and it is wholly inappropriate that you are forcing your own views upon us by preventing any possible meaningful discussion on the exact topic that Dr. Ball was writing about. He didn’t present any scientific evidence that the senate hearings failed either, correct?
Secondly, multiple sources are pointing in the same direction. For example, Wikipedia is equally dismissive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition). Besides, there is “data” available. From said wikipedia article:
In 2001, Scientific American took a random sample “of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. ” Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community”
And still, my main point made at the beginning of this discussion stands, namely that 30.000 is nothing compared to the number it should have had, and I’m just curious to know why this is. Factual information gleaned from the web: the 31,487 names collected by the Global Warming Petition Project represent only one quarter of one percent (0.25%) of science and engineering degrees awarded since 1970 in the US.
so… very good dbstealey, you ask for data, I give you data, you will probably claim my data is fake, and that you are more scientific than I am. this does not at all change the fact that this entire blog post is not about science but about communication, and that my initial question still remains ignored. Please see the mini discussion with RW below for more!
Cheers,
benben
benben,
As u.k.(us) commented above:
@ur momisugly benben You want facts/talking points? All ya gotta do is ask 🙂
But you want only talking points, don’t you, benben? Because you certainly shy away from discussing facts, evidence, or measurements.
Next, you say that I’m “forcing” my views on you. That goes a long way in explaining why you’re being led around by the alarmist cult, if someone can force you to think the way they want. Try thinking for yourself for a change.
Next, all your excuses regarding the OISM co-signers could be applied to any similar petition, ‘consensus’, or poll. Nothing matters except the named co-signers, and out of more than 31,000 co-signers, both you and the Scientific American alarmist publication were able to find a total of only nineteen (19) who might either not recall signing, or have other excuses. That leaves 31,468 co-signers — and you still cannot find 0.1% who disagree with the statement! Even with the incompetent help of Mr. Bluster, who says:
Dbstealey, did you know the OISM petition was shut down a few years ago?
Mr. Bluster clearly doesn’t know that the OISM “Petition” was a petition to the U.S. delegation to Kyoto to reject the Protocol. Obvioulsly, the OISM co-signers were successful. So their job was done, and no need to continue gathering co-signers (I tried to add my name a few years ago, but I was told the petition was closed to new names).
So Mr. Bluster was wrong because he didn’t understand the purpose of the Petition. Then he sets himself up here (and he makes it too easy, as usual):
Do you know that science is not done by petition?
That wasn’t for science, that was for politics; it merely used scientific evidence to make the case for rejecting a political action.
Ah, but “consensus”. The ‘consensus’ is, and always has been, entirely on the side of skeptics of the ‘dangerous AGW’ scare/hoax. Alarmists don’t like that fact. But they cannot produce even 0.1% of the OISM co-signers, who contrtadict what the Petition says. Really, the alarmist crowd should give up on their ‘consensus’ claim, since it’s so easy to refute.
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
That’s what you get for thinking. This site is about anything Anthony Watts wants to publish.
Science comprises most of it. But the fact that you can comment shows that science isn’t 100% of the content.
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
Busted Bluster,
I get much more satisfaction from debunking your nonsense here. It’s easy-peasy, I know. But better than watching TV.
But really, Bluster, you need to get a life. To you I’m just a pixel pattern, but one that displays your ignorance, incompetence, and desperation. I like having you bird-dog my comments because it shows you can’t get a leg up on me. But really, chihuahua, get a life. Quit trying to run with the big dogs here. You just haven’t got what it takes: knowledge of the subject.
So stop parroting the carp you read at SkS and other alarmist blogs; start exercising your unused noggin and debate with whatever intelligence you’ve got. When you let other do your thinking for you we can run circles around you.
Man, I’m not sure if you are serious or not. “the Scientific American alarmist publication were able to find a total of only nineteen (19) who might either not recall signing, or have other excuses.” <= this was out of a sample of thirty.
Of course you're free to dismiss this as propaganda, but I'm equally free to dismiss that strange petition as propaganda. And the fact that you interpret a samplesize of 30 as that they rang everybody on the list but could find only 19 people that changed their minds is…. well, I'm trying to have a serious conversation here. It would be nice if you could return the favour.
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
“You are all politics an no science.”..
…says the guy who won’t answer questions, and who can’t produce a single measurement quantifying AGW, who bird-dogs my comments out of an inferiority complex, and who can’t find even 0.1% of scientists who dispute the conclusions of the OISM petition.
Mr. Bluster, you couldn’t tell the difference between science and Scientology, so you can give up trying to tell anything folks who understand science far better than you — which includes most readers of this science site.
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
“so you can give up trying to tell anything folks who understand science far better than you ”
…
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)
Ben , did you in your entire training ever learn the basic equations for calculating the equilibrium temperature of a radiantly heated colored ball? Can you point to a textbook page or website where it is worked out ? Surely that must be early in any curriculum claiming to explain planetary temperature .
Further , can you point to any electromagnetic , ie : spectral , equations which get around the Divergence Theorem to “trap” energy , ie : heat — or experimental demonstrations of the effect ?
This latter I am confident you cannot do . Only asymmetric centripetal gravity balances the equations .
Tbh I don’t know how gravity is related to thermodynamics. But please enlighten me? Keep in mind that my thermodynamics classes were almost a decade ago!
Cheers
Ben
Then LEARN . I suggest you start with HockeySchtick’s analysis and references . Here’s a good one to start with : http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/05/maxwell-established-that-gravity.html . I think the derivations are so obvious , once you recognize that gravity is the next parameter which must be added to any model after spectrum as seen from the outside , that I’ll wait til I”m ready to implement them succinctly in 4th.CoSy before working thru Hockey’s derivations .
You didn’t answer my question of whether you have learned how to calculate the temperature of a radiantly heated colored ball . As a chem e interested in the topic you must have had a course in Heat Transfer . Interestingly , Incropera , et al , href=”http://smile.amazon.com/Introduction-Heat-Transfer-Frank-Incropera/dp/0471386499/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450649336&sr=1-5&keywords=incropera” > Introduction To Heat Transfer which I generally find to be a thorough engineering text stops short of presenting the equations for radiant transfer for arbitrary spectra .
So , since you have access to full university resources , please point us to a rigorous treatment of necessary bit of any explanation of planetary temperature .
Almost a whole decade?
Oh, well then…after all that time, who can hold you to having to remember anything.
*rolls the eyes*
I can’t believe the responses I’m reading to Ben’s comments, which are an attempt to be helpful. You’re acting like a bunch of true-believers trying to stamp out any perceived heresy! (I.e. like a bunch of Tweedledees attacking a perceived Tweedledum.)
Maybe because you aren’t in contact with many scientists, you just can’t get your heads around what Ben is saying. Maybe you’ve never been to a scientific conference with 3-5,000 people all of whom treat AGW as axiomatic. Maybe you don’t know how many Ph.D. theses are being awarded every year for work related to AGW. (And can you guess how many of these people are going to embrace a skeptical view of AGW?)
Maybe this is part of the problem skeptics are having overcoming this AGW madness. (You’ve never realized what a small world you live in – no maybe about that.)
RW , you bring to mind one of my tweets : The hallmark of the Statist ( of any label ) is the nexus of arrogance and ignorance .
One of my roommates in grad school at Northwestern was a Chem E . He helped me with a lot of math when I jumped into C level Prob & Stat only having read Thomas , not taken the 2 years calc prerequisite .
I asked BenBen a basic question , which as an engineering problem boils down to how you calculate the equilibrium temperature of an orange sitting under a sun lamp . Any post doc Chem E with an interest in understanding planetary temperature surely should at least know where to go to get the equations and their explication .
If he were serious in understanding the temperature of the planet to 4 or 5 decimal places , he should at least agree that’s a damned interesting question because if you can’t quantitatively explain the temperature of a uniformly colored ball , how can you be taken seriously claiming to explain the temperature of a complexly colored sphere like the earth ?
Instead , BB seems to have just disappeared .
Hey rw,
Thanks for your comment! It’s very heartening to see that at least one person reacts to what I wrote, instead of trying to cajole me into debating some mathematical eqation 🙂 RW, you are exactly right. I go to these conferences and there are thousands upon thousands of scientists there. None of them are funded by the UN, the IPCC or whatever. They don’t do any work related to AGW. They are all perfectly capable of understanding the basic math behind the stuff being posted here on this site. Nobody is scared to have a spirited debate about politicaly sensitive topics (au contraire, it’s a favourite pasttime). Heck, most aren’t even American and couldn’t care less about whatever Obama does or does not want to do. And yet I see close to a 100% supporting AGW related policy. This is not me ‘arguing the consensus’, as I keep getting accused of here. It’s just an observation. It would seem to me that this group should be the focus of this blog (as opposed to what Dr. Ball argues above), and I wonder why people here in the comment section think they aren’t reaching those scientists. Because – let’s be honest – nobody is going to convince the general public with incredibly complicated thernomdynamics.
@ur momisugly Bob Armstrong, I agree with you, it’s just that I’m not interested in debating thermodynamics. I understand most things posted on this site. You will also note that I never try to convince anyone here that they are wrong. And why would I? I’m just commenting here because there are things that puzzle me (not the maths), and I find it interesting to see what you guys have to say about that specific thing that puzzles me. Again, I ask these questions to satisfy my own curiousity, feel free to ignore me if you are only interested in debating your own debate!
(sorry, I’m ill at the moment, but it’s nice to know you noticed my absence, Bob 😉
Cheers,
Ben
If you are not interested in the maths then you are not interested in the physical reality — just happy to subjugate your rationality to the collective .
I love maths, I just have better things to do than to prove to a random person on the internet that I’m capable of doing partial differential equations. Besides, the post we are discussion by Dr. Ball has nothing to do with thermodynamics. I’m discussing the content of this particular blog post. You are not. I don’t understand the difficulty you are having with that…
rw,
You’re doing just what the alarmist crowd does: assuming that skeptics disagree with AGW.
FYI, this scientific skeptic has never said anything like that. I’ve always stated that I agree with AGW. It’s just that AGW is such a minuscule forcing that it doesn’t matter; it is a complete non-problem.
The debate is over degrees of evidence — and the evidence to support AGW is pretty sparse. There are no measurements of AGW. Almost all of the “evidence” is based on opinions supported by what amount to coincidental events: temperature rising coincidentally with CO2 rising — but when that evidence is scrutinized, it turns out that ∆CO2 is caused by ∆T, not vice-versa.
The “AGW madness” you refer to is simply a massive propaganda attack funded by billions of dollars, with the President of the U.S. as a very visible spokesman (notwithstanding the fact that he doesn’t know science from Scientology).
Finally, when you ask…
…can you guess how many of these people are going to embrace a skeptical view of AGW?
…you are exposing the central problem: carreers, pay raises, funding, promotions, grants, advancement, etc., are all dependent on either supporting the DAGW hoax, or at least not publicly contradicting it.
So can you blame people for not jeopardizing their career prospects? That explains why many scientists become vocal DAGW critics — but only after they’ve retired. And major KUDOS to the few who value scientific honesty and their own personal integrity enough to tell the truth when it could hurt them. I’m not so certain that I would be telling the truth in public like that, if it impacted my family. Would you?
Big money plus politics. How could that not end up in corruption?
haha, ok, so you are allowed to make an assertion like “That explains why most scientists become vocal DAGW critics — but only after they’ve retired.” without any data to back it up (and I suspect 31.000 signatures does not even come close to 1% of all retired scientists). But when I make a perfectly reasonable back-of-the-envelope calculation that there should be hundreds of thousands of scientists filling this blog, then you demand data. Double standards dbstealey, double standards 😉
benben, benben, benben,
So now you want to discuss facts?
Make up your mind, it’s one or the other.
hey DB, as you well know, I was interested in discussing the topic of this blog post, which wasn’t related to data to begin with. You’re the one that started the whole data temper tantrum. So its ironic that you then fail to pass your own bar, but I don’t particularly care either way. Anyway, at least we have established that you’re better at writing in a self-assured way than thinking things through consistently.
Have a nice christmas!
Benben
Will the real Oceanographer of the Navy please stand up,
I have just been reading the IPCC reports on paleoclimatology, and was surprised at how stupid this report was.
It was not an investigation into the science, where scientists get around a table to argue the points and possibly thrash out a ‘consensus’ position. It was not even a balanced view of the current science that took you through the problems from A – Z. It was cherry-picked reports that underscored their position, including some reports that came to wild ‘left of park’ conclusions. But they were included because they supported the party line. And I lost count of the number of times it said that ‘the reasons for this are still unknown’. So much for settled science.
If I as a non-scientist was left underwhealmed by the IPCC report, then of what use is it?
R
By the greatest irony one can imagine – skepticism – the greatest trait within science, has been turned into name-calling, and even attempted made into an illegal act, by some proponents of United Nations climate theory. More on the modern scientific method here
The second greatest irony is that, by its charter, United Nations was supposed to achieve “international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character.”
The following definition of culture will help to understand why a misconception of the scientific method must be regarded as a problem of a cultural character:
“A culture is a way of perceiving, thinking and acting – which has been learned, developed or discovered -while learning to deal with internal and external challenges – and which is being taught as an acceptable, or right way of perceiving, thinking and acting.”
By it´s climate theory United nations has created an international cultural problem by enforsing unscientific principles upon, and endorsing unscientific principles by, its so-called scientific body: IPCC.
United Nations Was Supposed To Solve International Problems Of A Cultural Character – Not To Become One!
Right. We should rely on common sense that ordinary people understands. We should also say that instead on going to a scientific debate.
1. Earth has warmed 0.8 C to the global average of 15 C since 1880, time period called little ice age. We live still today one of coldest times after the big ice age 12800 years ago.
2. Alleged warming another 0,7 C by 2100 will benefit the mankind, the most adaptable species on our planet. It will be similar than moving less than 100 km from North to South. Vast land areas in Siberia and Canada will be little more habitable. There will be less extreme weather like hurricanes. Sea levels rise some centimetres. Deserts like Sahara get more rain and vegetation increases due to increase on CO2.
3. There has been ups and downs during that path which do not follow the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere showing that CO2 is not the main driver of the weather.
4. Climate change is most of all a political issue where a threat is used to pressure the ordinary people to give up their money and freedom to people who want to rule through big and powerful governments. Businessmen like sure profits coming subsidised “renewables”. If CO2 were the problem, nuclear power and better coal technology would be the solution, not trillions of dollars moved to coffers of the elite.
I notice that hardly anyone on either side ever mentions what the global temperature was before the Little Ice Age. Seems to me that we may not even be back to the warmth of the pre-LIA era even yet.
Good pint and important. Too bad that Cruz wasn’t given a bit more of a head up on how to counter some of the claims from Markey and Titley. An obvious counter being to show what a graph of the last several thousand years looks like as opposed to just the last 140+ years. One picture being worth quite a few words, and that message being easily conveyed even to those with little knowledge of the bigger picture.
Here is one graph that shows we have not even recovered to pre-LIA temperatures just yet. I hope it can be seen here. I never know.
http://www.longrangeweather.com/images/gtemps.jpg
No, the Earth is not back to the temperatures before Little Ice Age:
See “Temperature fluctuations over the past 17,000 years” (Don J. Easterbrook), at http://www.oarval.org/Foster_20k.jpg
Mark S
Nice image. What are the sources ?
Would like to promote it, but need sources.
Knute,
I have seen things like this for a long time. But this one is copyrighted and the source is there in the bottom of the image.
You can see the owners and the work here: http://www.longrangeweather.com/
Thanks Mark
I’ve gotten burned by bad images and want one I can rely on.
Really appreciate your answering me.
As a salesman I would do it as simply as possible.
Prof Bob Carter does that and gives wonderful lectures because his slides explain things simply.
By showing historical temperatures and other Holocene’s with temperatures 5C warner than today it grabs attention. A graph showing the last 5m years where for 3m of them it was warmer than today should set the tone.
In no particular order there is the lack of warming of the Tropical Troposphere by the Aqua satellite….nothing found by weather balloons either.
Explain urban heat isle, sea rise and fall during Holocene’s and Glaciations and how the satellites are at odds with observed measurement’s on sea levels.
Sea currents, El Nino’s….no acidification.
Polar Bear mortality very often caused by thick Spring Sea Ice that deters seal pups entering the outside world thus causing starvation as Polar Bear cubs have no food.
Explain Younger Dryas and it’s implication for planning by politicians…the predicted cooling this century..
Finish with graphs showing historical levels of CO2…..the percentage increase (it may have been as much as 5,000ppm ) being more than enough to cancel out any claimed reduction in solar irradiance back then.
Explain the extinction rate of 150ppm…end of last Ice Age level being 180ppm….scary. Plants requiring CO2 of circa 1000ppm as a fertilizer and finally heat from CO2 being logarithmic and fossil fuel reserves being unlikely to allow more than one of two doublings….so we cannot overheat the planet.
Just simplify it.
+1
Almost a NIKE moment
Great article Dr. Ball and I think your analysis is spot on. I have been thinking for some time that what we need is a simple 2-3 page summary document complete with graphics (such as the CMIP vs satellite one above) addressing the claims versus reality in a ‘tabloid’ fashion and kept regularly uptodate. Simple up-to-date graphics with very short and punchy bullet points and use it as posters, flyers, advertisements, emails etc. The pure science will never win this.
Secondly, the MSM is THE problem here. However, journalists are an insecure and pushy lot who like to get one over their peers. Highlighting the bias and egregious failures in the media and the manifest problems with the ‘science’ of CAGW individual targetted journalists may be convinced to get ahead of the curve with a career enhancing expose of the fraud behind the political chicanery of climate change. The Woodward and Bernstein of Climategate v2!
Finally, I feel even in Ireland (which is very left wing with a monolithically convinced media on CC) the comments discussions in newspapers are starting to reflect the growing awareness in some sections of the public that the ‘science’ is BS.
+1