Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
After I’d published my previous post on the Hurst Exponent entitled A Way To Calculate Effective N, I got an email from Dan Hughes which contained a most interesting idea. He thought that it would be productive to compare the Hurst analysis of the records of weather phenomena such as temperatures and the like, with the Hurst analysis of the corresponding climate model outputs. He proposed that we take a look at the question and discuss and share our findings. Hey, what’s not to like?
Along the way, as such things happen, the topic of our discussion and investigation turned to a larger and more interesting question—`which of the various natural datasets (temperatures, rainfall, eruptions, pressures, etc) and/or the corresponding global climate model outputs are chaotic?
I must, of course, start with the obvious question … what is meant by “chaotic”? A chaotic system is a system wherein nearby initial states either converge or diverge exponentially. An example is the ocean surface. If you drop two sealed empty bottles overboard in mid-ocean, one on each side of a boat, they will drift apart over time. This separation will be slow at first, and then faster and faster as the two bottles encounter different winds and currents in different areas.
Whether a dataset is chaotic or not is generally assessed by looking at the Lyapunov exponent. This is a measure of the “stretching factor”. In our ocean example above, the stretching factor measures how fast the two points are moving apart over time. In a chaotic dataset, the stretching factor generally increases or decreases with time. In non-chaotic datasets, on the other hand, the stretching factor doesn’t vary with time. Figure 1 shows the “Lyapunov curves” of the evolution of the stretching factor with time for a variety of natural and calculated datasets.
Figure 1. Lyapunov curves for a variety of datasets. All datasets have been detrended and standardized before analysis.
Now, I’ve graphed four types of datasets above, indicated by the four colors. The first type, shown in red and mostly obscured by the blue lines, shows four different varieties of random numbers—normal, uniform, poisson, and high Hurst exponent fractional Gaussian random numbers. Basically the Lyapunov curves of the random number datasets are all plotting right on top of each other. Starting from time = 0, they climb rapidly to their maximum value and then just stay there. As we would expect from random data, there’s no trend in the stretching factor over time.
The next group, in blue, shows the Lyapunov curves for a half-dozen climate-related datasets, viz:
• HadCRUT4 Monthly Mean Surface Air Temperatures 1850-2015
• Annual Nilometer Minimum River Height 622-1284
• Stockholm Monthly Tides 1801-2001
• Central England Temperature Record Daily Maximum Temperatures 1878-2015
• Armagh Ireland Daily Mean Temperatures 1865-2001
• Annual Average Nile Flow, Cubic Metres/Sec 1870-1944
As you can see, in terms of the Lyapunov analysis, all six of these climate-related datasets (blue lines) are indistinguishable from the four random datasets (red lines), which in turn are indistinguishable from each other. None of them show any trace of chaotic behavior.
Another group of datasets, those at the bottom in gold colors, are quite different from the random and the observational datasets. They are a variety of chaotic datasets. Note that they all share a common factor—as mentioned above, over time the rate of separation (as measured by the “stretching factor”) increases. The rate of separation doesn’t just go to a certain high point and stay there like the random or climate-related datasets did. The rate of separation in chaotic datasets continues to rise over time.
Finally, there are a couple of other datasets in purple. These show observations of phenomena that are usually thought of as “forcings”. One is changes in the solar activity, with daily sunspots as a proxy for the activity, from 1880 to 2015. The other is annual aerosol optical depth from 800 to 2000, which is generally a function of volcanic action and is calculated from ice core data. Curiously, these two datasets plot somewhere in between the random observations at the top, and the chaotic datasets at the bottom. In addition, both of them show significant variation in stretching factor over time. The sunspots have a slight but significant increase. The aerosol optical depth goes down and then looks like it’s starting back up. So it seems that these two datasets are weakly chaotic.
Now, these results were a great surprise to me. I’ve long believed, without ever checking it, that the climate was chaotic … however, this analysis shows that at least those six observational datasets that I analyzed above are not chaotic in the slightest. Hey, what do I know … I was born yesterday.
Are there any climate datasets which are chaotic, even weakly chaotic? I think so. It appears that tropical ocean temperatures are weakly chaotic … but that’s a question for the next post, which will look into Dan Hughes’s idea regarding the use of the Hurst analysis to distinguish between chaotic and non-chaotic datasets.
Regards to everyone,
w.
MY USUAL REQUEST: If you disagree with someone, please quote the exact words you disagree with. That way, we can all understand the exact nature of your objection.
CODE: To calculate the Lyapunov exponent I’ve used the lyap_k function from the R package tseriesChaos. Here are the functions I used to make Figure 1:
lineout=function(col="black",testdata=testdata,line0=F,lwd=3,s=110){
output <-lyap_k(scale(dtrendlin(testdata)), m=3, d=2, s=s, t=40, ref=100, k=4, eps=4)
lines(output,main="",cex.main=.95,col=col,lwd=lwd)
invisible(output)
}
plotout=function(col="black",testdata=testdata,line0=T,lwd=3,s=110){
output <-lyap_k(scale(dtrendlin(testdata)), m=3, d=2, s=s, t=40, ref=100, k=4, eps=4)
plot(output,main="",cex.main=.95,new=F,ylim=c(-6,1),col=col,lwd=lwd,
ylab="Log(Stretching Factor)")
if (line0) abline(h=c(0,1),lty="dotted")
invisible(output)
}
dtrendlin=function(timeseries,doplot=FALSE){
outseries=timeseries
thelm=lm(timeseries~time(timeseries))
thegood=which(is.finite(timeseries))
outseries[thegood]=outseries[thegood]-thelm$fit
if (doplot){
plot(outseries)
}
outseries
}
A chaotic system to me is one that changes back and forth about a mean state.
A climate that kept going in the same direction once it got started to me is unstable but not chaotic.
Reply to S.D.P. ==> It seems that you are using the standard English definitions of chaotic and random.
Chaotic, in the sense used throughout this essay’ is:
If you are not passingly familiar with ‘chaos’ and ‘chaotic’ in that sense, in the Chaos Theory sense, the Wiki has a nice primer.
There are a half dozen absolutely indispensable books on Chaos Theory. If you haven’t already, read James Gleick, Edward Lorenz, and Ian Stewart for a quick start.
I think it would do some good to define dimensionality and show people the difference between chaos and randomness. WIllis has made a hash of things and has really confused people by deciding to use “the Lyapunov Exponent” as opposed to the dimension.
Reply to Dinostratus ==> Edward Lorenz (the “Father of Chaos Theory”, a rather incorrectly assigned title, which he freely admits, but is stuck with) defined chaotic systems as those that can be shown to be
Lorenz explores Fractality as a separate, related, concept, in the same book, in Chapter 5 “What Else is Chaos?”. It was Mandelbrot, however, that “coined the word fractal to describe systems with a fractional dimensionality”.
Lorenz’s definition above gives at least a conceptual difference between randomness and “chaotic”. In random systems, the next state is not deterministic, it could be any of a large or even infinite number of possibilities. In a “chaotic” system, the next state is entirely (or nearly so in the real world) determined by the present state, it can be ONLY ONE value. The catch is, it is not possible to determine what that value will be until one gets to it, it can not be predicted, which is why chaotic systems (in the chaotic state) “do… not look deterministic.”
I have discussed above that non-linear dynamic systems, which by their nature are chaotic, have periods of stubborn stability and odd, beautiful order (strange attractors), snapping from one to the other.
I do agree that w’s choice of “the Lyapunov Exponent” was ill-though out — possibly driven by the finding of a R-function “the lyap_k function from the R package tseriesChaos”.
The choice of datasets seems to be itself random or opportunistic (searching for one’s car keys under the lamp post because that’s where the light is good).
It is virtually impossible that “HadCRUT4 Monthly Mean Surface Air Temperatures 1850-2015” could be chaotic — it is not itself “real”, being an average of averages of averages (ad infinitum) of ranges of daily temperature readings at random locations — any real meaning smoothed, homogenized, kriged and finally politically adjusted far past any hope of representing actuality. One would not expect “temperature” to be chaotic in any case. (see Wyatt). Two datasets of a randomly chosen (?) river in North Africa reflecting regional rainfall at its headwaters. Tides in a Scandinavian sea port (climate related?) and finally two 100-year-plus datasets of temperature, measured to +/- 0.5° C, of essentially the same global place (Ireland and Central England) — surface air temperatures!
Made a hash of things and indeed.
In w’s defense, he just plain seems to have a misunderstanding of Chaos Theory and its implications from the git-go. His “two bottles in the ocean” example shows how “off” his concept of Chaos is.
Oops — something nipped from the first blockquote:
Kip Hansen October 26, 2015 at 7:34 am
Gotta tell you, Kip, you joining Dinostratus in the “I’ll tell you what’s wrong … but not what’s right” club is pathetic. You’re both more than happy to tell me that I’m wrong, wrong, wrong, but you are surprisingly coy and reticent about what’s right.
Take your comment above. I chose those datasets because they were a widely disparate group, and I wanted a wide sample of possibilities. You whine that HadCRUT4 surface air temperature couldn’t be chaotic because it’s an average … but then I knew that it was an average, which is why I also included a long single-station dataset, to see if the averaging made a difference. You claim the single-station dataset is wrong, wrong, wrong … but you don’t say one word about why.
More to the point, however, if you are such a freakin’ expert on what datasets I SHOULD NOT have used, where is your expert opinion about what dataset I SHOULD have used?
And if you think I’m not using the lyap_k function correctly (despite the fact that I used it to clearly distinguish between chaotic and non-chaotic datasets), then how about YOU SHOW US HOW TO USE IT CORRECTLY!
Because between you and Dino, your endless whining and negativity is getting quite boring. You need to either lead, follow, or get out of the way, because at present neither of you are contributing anything to move the conversation forwards. I may indeed be very wrong … but until either of you can demonstrate what is right, you’ll get no traction with me.
w.
Reply to willis ==>
Your posited defintion:
needs a reference ….
Your exercise did find what it found — the data sets tested with a specified R-function showed no signs of being chaotic. That’s your finding. (and I, for one, and rgbatduke, for another, would not have expected anything different.) That says nothing whatever about Earth’s Climate System.
I have given above Lorenz’s definition of Chaotic Systems — which you may not like or agree with, but it certainly is well accepted in the field.
Rather than get into some kind of back-and-forth with you, I’ll just say that I agree with Dr. Brown [rgbatduke] here and here above. Quoting excerpts from him at the links provided:
All but one of your data-sets are averages or means — most averages of averages of averages — in which one could not rationally expect to find signs of chaos even if it were in the specific system the data-set pretends or is proffered to represent. Looking for chaotic dynamics in such is beyond me too.
CET Record Daily Maximum Temperatures 1878-2015 is at least a single data point set — but one would not expect temperature — even Maximum Daily Temperature — to be Chaotic….for too many reasons to go into here…but Dr Brown’s comment apply…”So you are looking at the wrong thing, in the wrong dimensionality.” or read Lorenz, “The Essence of Chaos“, he discusses this point.
I accept that you never considered the Stockholm Monthly Tides 1801-2001 to be a climate indicator — but I point out that it too is an average of averages of averages…..in a system (oceanic tides) not generally considered to be Chaotic.
It is the Earth’s Climate System itself that is chaotic in nature — two major coupled yet independent chaotic dynamic systems — the atmosphere and the oceans — in which the chaotic nature is evident in everyday life, without resort to “statistical packages”.
It is simply my hope to help some others here better understand the topic of “Is the Earth’s Climate System ‘chaotic’?” a little more clearly.
If you feel inclined to argue (in your usual inimitable style), please argue with Dr. Brown — whatever you say to him will spur him on to posting even more helpful, educational comments here — always welcome.
Kip, thank you for your reply. However, perhaps you didn’t notice that a) I asked three clear questions, and b) you did not answer even one of them.
I didn’t ask for another lecture on how foolish I am. I didn’t ask what I was doing wrong, which you and Dino seem obsessed with. I didn’t ask you to refer me to Dr. Brown.
Here’s what I asked:
It’s great for you to wave your hands and say:
and guess what … I agree with you.
But without EVIDENCE our beliefs mean nothing. And this evidence can only come from what you demeaningly refer to as “statistical packages”. I believe, as you do, that the weather is chaotic … and so I do what any good scientist does, I’m looking for evidence to back that up. And the fact that you opine similarly means nothing in that quest.
So how about you give up telling me I’m doing everything WRONG, and you pull out the dataset and the method that you think is RIGHT. In other words, don’t tell me I’m wrong, demonstrate the correct method that shows the climate is in fact chaotic.
Because I think it is chaotic, and I’m looking for evidence that it is … and you’re not helping.
Best regards,
w.
Note to Wiliis ==> You can not possibly think that any sane person, or even a person like me, would actually engage in conversation with someone who speaks to them like this and this.
But, I’ll trade you — fair’s fair — you respond to this:
…..a reference that gives that as a working definition of a Chaotic System.
If you do that, then I will answer one, simple, civilly put question (not a demand that I solve your conundrums or misunderstandings about Chaos Theory) — just one simple question.
In Willis’s defense James Gleick spends a lot of time going over Lyapunov Exponents over an over as part of the narrative. It makes for a good narrative. It is not a good way to quantify chaos vs. randomness but Willis’s understanding is not deep enough to know that.
So here is an interesting numerical experiment. Take the Lorenz equations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_system and add a random permutation to one of the variables, say X. So instead of X_i+1 = f(X_i) let X_i+1 = f(X)+A*n(0,1) where n(0,1) is the unit normal distribution. How big does “A” have to be to turn X from a chaotic variable to a random variable? (Ans. “not very”) That gets to Lorenz’s point about “slight”. What is slight? What happens at the boarder of “slight” and “not so slight”?
Reply to Dinostratus ==> Its not that the Lyapunov Exponent has nothing to do with Chaos, which you already understand — it just can not be used as an easy-peasy test of a two-axis, time series data-set for Chaos….even if the time series data-set was appropriate.
Lorenz speaks to the Lyapunov Exponent as well — but quite intentionally chooses sensitivity to initial conditions as his starting-point definition.
Interesting experiment….I have played (for more hours than I care to admit, back in the 1980s) with “slight” variations of all the classic Chaos formulas…back when it used to take 30 minutes to get a clear idea how an image would develop….running Basic programs on cobbed up Commodore clones, eight inch floppies, etc. What a hoot!
“an easy-peasy test of a two-axis”
I know. That’s what makes me chuckle when he brings up “the” Lyapunov exponent.
In any event, ya, I too learned to program doing cool plots. I learned SAS and C just to do mulit-color plots on a Tektronix terminal one pixel at a time.
Reply to Dinostratus ==> [I have no idea if this reply will appear in the right place — the sub-thread is getting so long…:-) ]
“one pixel at a time” — gotta love it. I was thrilled when I could do color!
I dredged up some of my early Basic chaos stuff a couple of years ago and found that the code processed even the Mandelbrot so quickly, it was no different than opening a standard .jpg. Had to go into the code and throw in delays to get the desired effect of the set building itself in an interesting manner.
Kip Hansen October 26, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Curiously, Kip, I was just pondering the same question. Why should I engage in a conversation with people who will only tell me I’m doing it wrong, over and over … but refuse to tell me how to do it right? Where’s the cheese at the end of that maze? I’m willing to learn from anyone, but there’s no gain in such a conversation unless you are willing to show us just exactly how to do it right.
Glad to. Here. Or you could try this one, which says:
In addition, they can converge exponentially, as in the Rossler chaotic dataset shown in the figure above.
You go on to say:
Here’s my one question.
Are you willing to stop endlessly claiming I”m wrong, and instead demonstrate to us exactly how to do it right?
That is to say, if you think I’m using the lyap_k function incorrectly, then show us how to use it correctly. Or if you think I’m using the wrong datasets and methods to see if the climate is chaotic, then point out the correct datasets and the right methods and post your data and code.
After all, that’s what I do. I don’t waste time claiming people are wrong. If I think they’re doing it wrong, I don’t just say wrong, wrong, wrong. Instead, I use the datasets and methods that I think are the correct ones, and I DEMONSTRATE how I think it should be done.
So my one civilly put question is … are you willing to do the same?
w.
“Are you willing to stop endlessly claiming I”m wrong, and instead demonstrate to us exactly how to do it right?”
Willis, there are hundreds upon hundreds of papers that show how to do it. We aren’t in charge of your literature search. We aren’t. No, seriously, we aren’t. I’ve reluctantly given dozens of hints. Reluctant because I’m concerned that you might figure something out and confuse people in new ways.
The very first step in all good research is a lit search. Why? Because it is the most efficient way to learn and there is no joy for most in reinventing the wheel. Finding out one could have skipped months of work by just reading one more paper is a very frustrating thing. It happens to me more than I’d like to admit. Why you insist on doing even the smallest things yourself is beyond me. I suspect you’re egotistical a level of near incapacitation..
Dinostratus October 26, 2015 at 10:29 pm Edit
Thanks, Dino. In other words, you will NOT demonstrate to us how to do it right, so you’re of no use to anyone.
Regards,
w.
Reply to willis ==> Well, at least you almost asked a civil question….
First, let’s look at the question of your “definition” of a Chaotic System.
Here are the references you give, expanded to get a better idea of the context:
[well, something went wonky on the last try…one more time…]
Reply to willis ==> Well, at least you almost asked a civil question….
First, thank you for supplying references — now, let’s look at the question of your “definition” of a Chaotic System.
Here are the references you give, expanded to get a better idea of the context:
In the both cases, it is clear that what diverges are two orbits with nearly identical initial conditions in the phase space of strange attractors. And, of course, both point to the central point of sensitivity to initial conditions.
In none of the data-sets proffered are “today’s value” the initial condition for “tomorrow’s value” — for example, temperature today at the Royal Observatory does not cause the temperature tomorrow at the same place; in the sense that today’s average temperature is not even an important input into the formula that determines tomorrow’s temperature …. while the average temperatures of a nearby air masses, the local atmospheric flows and the local values for cloud dynamics are causative inputs.
In the same way, today’s Nile River flow value is not an initial condition for next weeks or next months flow…they are both results of some complex dynamical system — and flow of a major river is a naturally, physically “averaged” metric in the sense that it is the combined product of many local flows of tributary streams and rivers each depending on very local conditions.
None of the data-sets represent values of orbits in the phase space of strange attractors.
I quote rgbatduke one more time:
Now, this is not to say that “local daily high temperature at Armagh” is not chaotic — it may well be, but it is a very tightly regulated output. Lorenz points out that the local high temperature in Phoenix, AZ, in June, is just not going to be -10° C no matter what slight adjustments are made to initial conditions — the dynamic system that produces temperatures in Phoenix doesn’t allow it even if it is Chaotic — the Chaos may well appear in some other dimensional view of the dynamic system that produces Daily High Temperature of Phoenix, AZ.
Your question:
My answer:
Part 1 (the “Do you still beat your wife?” portion) — I am not claiming, I am pointing out the same things that Robert Brown points out — your approach and your chosen data-sets are inappropriate for the purpose of answering the question “Is the Earth’s Climate System chaotic?”.
Part 2 — Note: Here you have violated the ‘deal’ : “(not a demand that I solve your conundrums or misunderstandings about Chaos Theory)” — Short answer ==> Not my job. [Free hint: see rgb’s quoted comments.]
Thanks, Kip. Here was my simple request, which you have refused:
In other words, you are NOT willing to demonstrate how to do it right, and thus you, like Dinostratus, are of no use to anyone.
Seriously, guys. Endlessly telling someone that they are wrong means nothing unless you can show us that you know what you are talking about by demonstrating exactly how to do it right. The fact that you both refuse to do so speaks volumes.
Sorry, but I’ve got better things to do than be abused by people who are unwilling to show us the right way to do things.
w.
Reply to Willis ==> I promised to answer any single civil question that you chose to ask — not accept whatever dare or demand you chose to throw at me.
I did so, the answer was “Not my job” (I could have used more words and said “It is not my job to demonstrate to you exactly how to do it right and I have no intention of doing so.”)
It is your project — just do it and let us know the results.
RGB tried to steer you in what he feels is the right direction, and gave a suggested course of immediate study, for both himself and for you, in pursuit of a solution to the question of “how to do it right”. He is a lot mathy-er and smarter than I am, so my advice would be to follow his advice.
Looking forward to your next essay on the topic.
Willis has come to the table with mathematics and calculated results. The mathematics are the standard methodology for investigating the Maximal Lyapunov Exponent (MLE). Because of the exponential growth of initially nearby states the response is determined solely by the MLE as the effects of the other components will be annihilated.
This Google Scholar search leads to thousands of hits related to calculation of the MLE for both simple lists of data and ODE systems. In order for Kip and Dinostratus to invalidate the methodology used by Willis they are required to show that his methodology is not among these methods.
Kip and Dinostratus have arrived at the table with nothing but hand and arm waving. Neither of them can supply a single citation in which the chaotic response is characterized solely by the fractional dimension of the trajectories of the response.
The literature, on the other hand, is filled with peer-reviewed reports and papers in which methodologies to calculate the MLE, and applications of the methodology to various simple non-linear ODE systems.
More important by far is the fact that neither of them has suggested what the fractional dimension of the trajectories from CGM calculations might be. And most important of all, neither has suggested how that dimension might be calculated.
In fact, they have yet to cite a single paper in which the fractional dimension of the original 1963 Lorenz equations has been calculated. I’ll supply one for them, and the paper indicates that this computational task is far from trivial. There’s a little difference between calculation of the trajectories and calculation of this property. 🙂
Climate Science is filled with references to the chaotic response of Earth’s climate systems. Yet the only indications that Earth’s climate systems represent chaotic response are the numerical results of GCM calculations. These sole indications, in others words, can at the most only provide the characterization that Earth’s climate systems are Numerically Chaotic.
It is critically important that results of GCMs are demonstrated to be a high fidelity representation of the physical domain that they are designed to simulate; it’s called Validation. Demonstration that the Numerical Chaos of the GCM calculations is present in the physical domain is critically important. One reason that this demonstration is important is the well-known fact that numerical solution methods have a potential to introduce chaotic behavior into equation systems that cannot exhibit such response. The numerical approximation to a single linear equation, for example. This unusual, and absolutely wrong, behavior even includes the bounded response that is an important aspect of chaotic behavior. Typically, numerical instability shows divergence and blow-up of the calculations. Some of the reports and papers listed here include demonstration of incorrect chaotic response due solely to numerical solution methods.
Likewise, accurate numerical resolution of even the simple original 1963 ODE system of Lorenz is far from trivial. Check the literature citations in that paper for additional information. The paper was ultimately published in Tellus, IICR.
Other introductory material related to numerical solutions of ODE systems that exhibit chaotic response is available here. Most of that information dates from 2007, 2008. There are very likely more recent resources available if you’ll Google around.
Mathematics and results on the table trump hand and arm waving every time.
Reply to Dan Hughes ==> Correctly calculated mathematics applied to the wrong sort of thing does not produce a result that even needs to be refuted.
You must have missed my very first comment on this essay:
You seem to be “mathy” — read Dr. Robert Brown’s several comments above (he comments here as rgbatduke) who raises the self-same issues that Dinostratus and I raise, in his own inimitable, more-mathy-than-I, style. (If you use the Firefox browser, you can Cntrl-F opening a small search box at the bottom of the page and type in “rgbatduke” to find his comments.).
There has been no invalidating of the mathematics involved — I’m quite sure that the r-function for calculating MLEs does so correctly — it is this whole approach to this specific selection of data-sets that is wrong if the question being asked is, in fact, as Willis claims “Is The Climate Chaotic?”
As Dr. Brown states more succinctly than I:
If, after reading all of rgbatduke’s comments, you still have questions, I’ll try to answer them.
None of the citations in this comment are concerned with experimental data. Instead several general aspects of chaos and numerical methods were investigated in the reports at the links.
Apparently you again missed the critical step of actually reading the information before commenting. Had you bothered actually reading the information you would have some points that are in agreement with Brown’s initial investigations.
I’ll await your appraisal of the applications and results of others as summarized in my comments below. You might find the information at the links useful.
Reply to Dan ==> Of course the real, in-depth stuff agrees with a lot of Dr. Brown’s points — he is often right.
Please note, in case you haven’t noticed yet, that I do not respond to demands that I do something particular with the comments of others. I answer questions if I find them civil, interesting and I think I have something to say that would add to the general conversation. If you ask such a question, then I may or may not answer it, just as we all do in everyday conversation. [The only difference here is that we type instead of speak and there are a lot of people eavesdropping.]
Adding in insulting personal negative assumptions [re: intentions of others, what they have or have not done outside of your sight, etc] to comments directed at me gets the same response I give boors at parties and conferences — I ignore them and move on to others who know how to carry on conversations with strangers.
If you want to start a new conversation about “Is the Climate Chaotic?”, write an essay and we’ll all discuss it in its comments section.
ok, I have a question about this statement by Dr. Brown:
“From this I conclude that it is not at all implausible to assert that the fond hope of the GCM modellers that using a stepsize 30 orders of magnitude larger than the Kolmogorov scale will even qualitatively reproduce the distribution of possible future climate trajectories may be unreasonable, as I think has been pointed out before by several people but without quantitative support.”
My question is: Which of the fundamental equations employed in GCMs require consideration of time and space scales on the order of the Kolmogorov scales, and what are the fundamental physical phenomena and processes critical to the applications objectives of GCMs that require such consideration?
Although I was initially instructed to ask any specific questions about Dr. Brown’s posts, I have now been informed that it must be in the form of a just-so question. As just-so is not well defined, it is very likely that Kip will not respond.
When a response to a post fails to address any aspects of the material cited in the post and provides a statement that is not in any way related to the material in the in the post, I consider it a most excellent assumption that the responder has failed to read the post.
Kip Hansen said:
“Reply to Dan Hughes ==> Correctly calculated mathematics applied to the wrong sort of thing does not produce a result that even needs to be refuted.
You must have missed my very first comment on this essay:”
And then he said:
“Adding in insulting personal negative assumptions [re: intentions of others, what they have or have not done outside of your sight, etc] to comments directed at me gets the same response I give boors at parties and conferences — I ignore them and move on to others who know how to carry on conversations with strangers.”
Emphasis mine
Apparently the second emphasis of Kip’s words above is a self reference. Thus he is a self-referenced boor. :: QED
Reply to Dan Hughes ==> I suggested that you read Dr. Brown’s comments so you wouldn’t have to go over the ground already covered by him. If you have questions about something specific that Dr. Brown has said, ask him. He also sometimes responds to interesting questions.
I look forward to your essay on Climate and Chaos.
“In fact, they have yet to cite a single paper in which the fractional dimension of the original 1963 Lorenz equations has been calculated. ”
I gave the wiki for a list of dozens of them.
Try again. 🙂
In this Wiki article I count 16 References. The text cites a single one of these, [13] Grassberger and Procaccia, relative to the fractal dimension.
One (1) is somewhat less than “dozens”, which implies multiples of 12. So is 16 somewhat less than “dozens”, for that matter.
Not to mention that the comment referred to you and Kip, not to some implicit third-order removed citation, the details of which you were apparently not aware.
Nope.
Your accusation was “In fact, they have yet to cite a single paper in which the fractional dimension of the original 1963 Lorenz equations has been calculated. ” Yet I gave a link to 16 fractional dimensions (thanks for counting them!). You were so sure you were right, you failed to understand what you were arguing against.
Next time at least examine the possibility that the reason you disagree with someone is that you are wrong.
No! Wait! Not only did you not read what I wrote, you didn’t even link to the right wiki article I gave. Getting flustered? I hope so. It would show some self awareness.
I said this, “The Lorenz attractor, for instance, has a Hausdorff dimension of 2.06, according to wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fractals_by_Hausdorff_dimension . It covers more than an area. It fills less than a volume. It has a fractional dimension, ergo it is chaotic.”
You said this, “In fact, they have yet to cite a single paper in which the fractional dimension of the original 1963 Lorenz equations has been calculated.”
You are wrong. Eat it.
Here’s an interesting statement from Giovanni Giacomelli, Stephane Barland Massimo Giudici, and Antonio Politi (2010), “Characterizing the Response of Chaotic Systems”, Physical Review Letters, 104, 194101.
The last sentence of the Abstract reads, “The exponent [gamma sub 1] is a dynamical invariant, which complements the standard characterization provide by the Lyapunov exponents.”
I changed the Greek symbol for gamma with subscript 1 to the words gamma sub 1, and the bold is mine.
hmmmm, standard characterization provide by the Lyapunov exponents
Everything I post disappears??
[Reply: It was in moderation hold for some reason. Posted now. ~mod.]
a test
[Please use the “Test” page for this. Thanks. ~mod.]
Here’s an interesting report: H. Abarbanel, S. Koonin, H. Levine, G. MacDonald, and 0. Rothaus (1991), Issues in Predictability, The MITRE Corporation JASON Program Office Report JSR-90-320.
ABSTRACT Since the beginning of the greenhouse debate, policy makers have demanded from the scientific community predictions of future climate in limited geographical areas and limited time intervals. Current climate models clearly do not have such capabilities, as is demonstrated by large disagreements among the models of continental size regions. Largely lost in the debate are fundamental questions such as: What is meant by predictability? What can be predicted and over what time and length scale? What errors can be expected from predictions? This report explores some of the issues by analyzing toy models of climate and existing data sets of global annual average surface air temperature.
7 SUMMARY COMMENTS The question as to the origin of the low-frequency components in climate records – chaotic motion or predictable fluctuations – remains open. Statistical analyses of data sets and of low-order climate models strongly suggest that the low-frequency components are chaotic, but this hypothesis has not been tested on Global Circulation Models. Such tests are essential if progress is to be made with respect to the question: Is climate predictable?
The theory of prediction for low-order dynamical systems is still in its infancy, but may have important applicability to the problems of short-term climate prediction. Developments in the field of nonlinear predictability should be closely watched since this is a rapidly growing area of nonlinear dynamics.
We have emphasized the reduction of the attractor dimension by averaging in order to increase the prospects for prediction. The results obtained from long runs of GCMs should be tested along the lines described in this report in order to investigate the extent to which climate is predictable.
Our report deals only with temporal averaging. Many of the questions raised by examining temporal averaging are relevant to the question of spatial averaging. The issues need to be investigated in three-dimensional models to better define the length scales over which prediction is possible.
Here’s another interesting paper: I.M. Echi, E.V. Tikyaa, and B.C. Isikwue (2013), Dynamics of Daily Rainfall and Temperature in Makurdi, International Journal of Science and Research, Vol. 4, Issue 7, July 2015.
Abstract: Having a detailed knowledge of rainfall and temperature dynamics is important for an adequate management of our meteorological and hydrological resources. Chaos theory being the basis for studying nonlinear dynamic systems has opened a lot of doors towards understanding complex systems in nature such as the weather. In this study the dynamics of daily rainfall and temperature in Makurdi from January 1st 1977 – December 31st 2010 is investigated using chaos theory. A variety of nonlinear techniques such as power spectrum, phase space reconstruction, Lyapunov exponents and correlation dimension are applied. The optimal delay times were calculated for rainfall and temperature using the average mutual information technique while optimal embedding dimensions were also obtained using the method of false nearest neighbors. Phase space reconstruction was carried out with these optimal values using the method of delays. The phase portraits showed geometry of distinct shapes interwoven to form spongy like structures indicating the presence of randomness and chaos in the data with that of rainfall concentrated at the origin due to the numerous zeros in the rainfall values. The correlation dimensions were estimated using the Grassberger-Procaccia algorithm and found to be 1.02 and 5.82 for the rainfall and temperature respectively while the Lyapunov exponents were calculated using Rosenstein’s approach and obtained as 0.00832/day and 0.00574/day for daily rainfall and temperature respectively. The small values (υ<20) of the correlation dimensions obtained suggest the presence of chaotic behavior of low dimensions; inferring that the rainfall dynamics is dominantly governed by a minimum (maximum) of 2(18) variables while the temperature dynamics is governed by a minimum (maximum) of 6(17) variables. The positive values of the largest Lyapunov exponents confirm the presence of chaotic dynamics in rainfall and temperature records over Makurdi and suggest predictability of within 112 days and 174 days for rainfall and temperature respectively.
Keywords: Chaos, power spectrum, phase space reconstruction, phase portrait, correlation dimension, Lyapunov exponent.
The frequently misunderstood Lyapunov exponent is intrinsically a measure of stability of dynamical systems, rather than a patent property of arbitrarily chosen experimental data or time series. For reliable determination of LEs, more than one phase space trajectory of the solution of the governing DEs is required. Although various heuristic algorithms have been developed for estimating the maximum LE from a single data series (e.g. Wolff), various experts in chaotic system behavior (see, inter alia, Sprott, as well as interhttp://chaosbook.org/chapters/Lyapunov.pdf ) caution strongly against blind numerical calculation, while citing the Perron effect as an obstacle to reliable detection of chaos in any case.
Nevertheless, the existence of chaotic behavior within the climate system is amply evident in the turbulent fluid motions of oceans and the atmosphere. It is the highly non-linear Navier-Stokes equations, rather than the equations of classical thermodynamics, that manifest a chaotic regime ubiquitously encountered on the spatio-temporal scales of weather. But when great spatio-temporal averaging is applied to the basic field data, it’s a small wonder that a search for indications of chaos in various “climatic” series turns into a fool’s errand.
The last sentence in the Abstract of the paper cited just above your comment says:
“The positive values of the largest Lyapunov exponents confirm the presence of chaotic dynamics in rainfall and temperature records over Makurdi and suggest predictability of within 112 days and 174 days for rainfall and temperature respectively.”
It seems to me that this example is not consistent with the last sentence in your post.
Are there deficiencies in that paper?
The example also seems to be inconsistent with several comments above in this thread regarding use of time series of a single quantity of weather/climate data.
Nice reply.
I do take issue with “It is the highly non-linear Navier-Stokes equations, rather than the equations of classical thermodynamics” as the highly non-linear Navier-Stokes equations fall under the umbrella of classical thermodynamics.
You will be hard pressed to find a classic thermodynamics text that features Navier-Stokes. They are a staple, however, in fluid dynamics.
I just looked in wiki for a good definition of “clasical thermo.” Apparently the line is drawn more conservatively than I thought. I had the line between fluid type thermo and quantum physics type thermo. The pendants create a third class and what I considered classical thermo does not apparently include quasi or near quasi steady state thermo. That sits outside a strict definition of classical thermo. I’ll have to remember that the next time I consider acoustical impedances. That was classical to me but apparently it’s borderline depending on the time constants of the process.
See? Even I can learn something.
This paper presented the Rosenstein, Collins, De Luca method for calculating the MLE. The abstract states:
Abstract
Detecting the presence of chaos in a dynamical system is an important problem that is solved by measuring the largest Lyapunov exponent. Lyapunov exponents quantify the exponential divergence of initially close state-space trajectories and estimate the amount of chaos in a system. We present a new method for calculating the largest Lyapunov exponent from an experimental time series. The method follows directly from the definition of the largest Lyapunov exponent and is accurate because it takes advantage of all the available data. We show that the algorithm is fast, easy to implement, and robust to changes in the following quantities: embedding dimension, size of data set, reconstruction delay, and noise level. Furthermore, one may use the algorithm to calculate simultaneously the correlation dimension. Thus, one sequence of computations will yield an estimate of both the level of chaos and the system complexity.
The Introduction also contains the following:
Dimension gives an estimate of the system complexity; entropy and characteristic exponents give an estimate of the level of chaos in the dynamical system.
The Grassberger-Procaccia algorithm (GPA) [20] appears to be the most popular method used to quantify chaos. This is probably due to the simplicity of the algorithm [16] and the fact that the same intermediate calculations are used to estimate both dimension and entropy. However, the GPA is sensitive to variations in its parameters, e.g., number of data points [28], embedding dimension [28], reconstruction delay [3], and it is usually unreliable except for long, noise-free time series. Hence, the practical significance of the GPA is questionable, and the Lyapunov exponents may provide a more useful characterization of chaotic systems.
For time series produced by dynamical systems, the presence of a positive characteristic exponent indicates chaos.
I do not see in this paper, or in any of the few papers that I have looked into that results from this Google Scholar search any indications that the methods cannot be applied to experimental single time series of experimental data.
De Luca has built software for estimating Lyapunov exponents for systems of ODEs.
Systems of ODEs are a far cry from mere experimental time series of a single state variable. That crucial distinction seems to have been lost in your view.
The paper uses both single-variable algebraic chaos and simple chaotic ODE systems. The methodology is not restricted to only one or the other.
Apparently, actually reading the cited paper is lost on you.
The paper uses both single-variable algebraic chaos and simple chaotic ODE systems. The methodology is not restricted to only one or the other. The results of De Luca’s work on ODE systems are reported in other peer-reviewed papers. The software is available online.
Apparently, actually reading the cited paper is lost on you.
Daily data at a fixed station scarcely constitutes “great spatio-temporal averaging.”
Yes, and so we have finally reached a determination that averaging over some temporal span is ok.
If it rains continuously every pico second for 24 hours every day for some number of days, how is the allowable averaging period determined?
So far as I know there are no theoretical guidelines for limitations on temporal averaging.
So far as I know there are no theoretical guidelines for limitations on spatial averaging.
And so far on this thread, no one has offered any theoretical guidelines for limitations on averaging over either time or space.
Only hand-waving ad hoc like statements have been offered.
Can anyone point me to a paper that offers theoretical investigations of the limitations of applications of the method?
This this Google Scholar search might be a good place to start.
Inasmuch as averaging obliterates spatio-temporal variations on scales smaller than the averaging interval, the suppression of the effects of chaotic fluid motion in grand averages should be self-evident.
Dynamical systems are the subject of intense ongoing research, conducted by highly qualified analysts. It’s unreasonable to expect google searches or blog comments to provide ready-made theoretical guidelines to satisfy the curiosity of nonspecialists or analytic amateurs. There are good reasons, however, why Sprott (see http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/chaos/lyapexp.htm) opines that “When one has access to the equations generating the chaos, [finding the GLE} is relatively easy to do. When one only has access to an experimental data record, such a calculation is difficult to impossible…”
Blindly turning the computational crank via ad hoc algorithms can produce numerical results; their significance, however, always remains highly questionable.
Re: 1sky1 10/28/15, 12:41 pm:
Blindly turning the computational crank via ad hoc algorithms can produce numerical results; their significance, however, always remains highly questionable.
Well said. Another example is the set of estimates and calculations of the Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity, defined as the rise in temperature following a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration. What is measured is the rise in temperature and what is estimated is the doubling of ACO2, all right, two numbers available at all times. What is missing, though, is that it is not temperature following CO2, but the reverse.
The discussions here about the fine points of chaos remind me of the elaborate and detailed discussions of, for example, ocean carbonate chemistry, aerosols, and radiative transfer. Each group of specialists strives to perfect his local region of a vast mobile, no one looking up to notice that the model is not connected to the ceiling.
For chaos, however, the analysis immediately runs into its own peculiar disconnect. The climate, being a subspace of the natural world, is not deterministic, besides having no equations, no initial conditions, not even a coordinate system. Those are properties of climate models. By definition, chaos is a property of models, not of the real world. But keep turning the computational crank, guys.