Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
Nearly every single climate model prediction, projection or whatever else they want to call them has been wrong. Weather forecasts beyond 72 hours typically deteriorate into their error bands. The UK Met Office summer forecast was wrong again. I have lost track of the number of times they were wrong. Apparently, the British Broadcasting Corporation had enough as they stopped using their services. They are not just marginally wrong. Invariably, the weather is the inverse of their forecast.
Short, medium, and long-term climate forecasts are wrong more than 50 percent of the time so that a correct one is a no better than a random event. Global and or regional forecasts are often equally incorrect. If there were a climate model that made even 60 percent accurate forecasts, everybody would use it. Since there is no single accurate climate model forecast, the IPCC resorts to averaging out their model forecasts as if, somehow, the errors would cancel each other out and the average of forecasts would be representative. Climate models and their forecasts have been unmitigated failures that would cause an automatic cessation in any other enterprise. Unless, of course, it was another government funded, fiasco. Daily weather forecasts are improved from when modern forecasting began in World War I. However, even short term climate forecasts appear no better than the Old Farmers Almanac, which appeared in 1792, using moon, sun, and other astronomical and terrestrial indicators.
I have written and often spoken about the key role of the models in creating and perpetuating the catastrophic AGW mythology. People were shocked by the leaked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU), but most don’t know that the actual instructions to “hide the decline” in the tree ring portion of the hockey stick graph were in the computer code. It is one reason that people translate the Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO) acronym as Gospel in, Gospel Out when speaking of climate models.
I am tired of the continued pretense that climate models can produce accurate forecasts in a chaotic system. Sadly, the pretense occurs on both sides of the scientific debate. The reality is the models don’t work and can’t work for many reasons, including the most fundamental; lack of data, lack of knowledge of major mechanisms, lack of knowledge of basic physical processes, lack of ability to represent physical mechanisms like turbulence in mathematical form, and lack of computer capacity. Bob Tisdale summarized the problems in his 2013 book Climate Models Fail. It is time to stop wasting time and money and put people and computers to more important uses.
The only thing that keeps people working on the models is government funding, either at weather offices or in academia. Without this funding computer modelers would not dominate the study of climate. Without the funding, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change could not exist. Many of the people involved in climate modeling were not familiar with or had no training in climatology or climate science. They were graduates of computer modeling programs looking for a challenging opportunity with large amounts of funding available and access to large computers. The atmosphere and later the oceans fit the bill. Now they put the two together to continue the fiasco. Unfortunately, it is all at massive expense to society. Those expenses include the computers and the modeling time but worse the cost of applying the failed results to global energy and environmental issues.
Let’s stop pretending and wasting money and time. Remove that funding and nobody would spend private money to work on climate forecast models.
I used to argue that there was some small value in playing with climate models in a laboratory, with only a scientific responsibility for the accuracy, feasibility, and applicability. It is clear they do not fulfill those responsibilities. Now I realize that position was wrong. When model results are used as the sole basis for government policy, there is no value. It is a massive cost and detriment to society, which is what the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was specifically designed to do.
The IPCC has one small value. It illustrates all the problems identified in the previous comments. Laboratory-generated climate models are manipulated outside of even basic scientific rigor in government weather offices or academia, and then become the basis of public policy through the Summary for Policymakers (SPM).
Another value of the IPCC Physical Science Basis Reports is they provide a detailed listing of why models can’t and don’t work. Too bad few read or understand them. If they did, they would realize the limitations are such that they preclude any chance of success. Just a partial examination illustrates the point.
Data
The IPCC people knew of the data limitations from the start, but it didn’t stop them building models.
In 1993, Stephen Schneider, a primary player in the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis and the use of models went beyond doubt to certainty when he said,
“Uncertainty about important feedback mechanisms is one reason why the ultimate goal of climate modeling – forecasting reliably the future of key variables such as temperature and rainfall patterns – is not realizable.”
A February 3, 1999, US National Research Council Report said,
Deficiencies in the accuracy, quality and continuity of the records place serious limitations on the confidence that can be placed in the research results.
To which Kevin Trenberth responded,
It’s very clear we do not have a climate observing system….This may come as a shock to many people who assume that we do know adequately what’s going on with the climate, but we don’t.
Two Directors of the CRU, Tom Wigley, and Phil Jones said,
Many of the uncertainties surrounding the causes of climate change will never be resolved because the necessary data are lacking.
70% of the world is oceans and there are virtually no stations. The Poles are critical in the dynamics of driving the atmosphere and creating climate yet there are virtually no stations in 15 million km2 of the Arctic Ocean or for the 14 million km2 of Antarctica. Approximately 85% of the surface has no weather data. The IPCC acknowledge the limitations by claiming a single station data are representative of conditions within a 1200km radius. Is that a valid assumption? I don’t think it is.
But it isn’t just lack of data at the surface. Actually, it is not data for the surface, but for a range of altitudes above the surface between 1.25 to 2 m and as researchers from Geiger (Climate Near the Ground) on show this is markedly different from actual surface temperatures as measured at the few microclimate stations that exist. Arguably US surface stations are best, but Anthony Watts diligent study shows that only 7.9 percent of them accurate to less than 1°C. (Figure 1) To put that in perspective, in the 2001 IPCC Report Jones claimed a 0.6°C increase over 120 years was beyond a natural increase. That also underscores the fact that most of the instrumental record temperatures were measured to 0.5°C.
Other basic data, including precipitation, barometric pressure, wind speed, and direction are worse than the temperature data. For example, in Africa there are only 1152 weather watch stations, which are one-eighth the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) recommended minimum density. As I noted in an earlier paper, lack of data for all phases of water alone guarantees the failure of IPCC projections.
The models attempt to simulate a three-dimensional atmosphere, but there is virtually no data above the surface. The modelers think we are foolish enough to believe the argument that more layers in the model will solve the problem, but it doesn’t matter if you have no data.
Major Mechanisms
During my career as a climatologist, several mechanism of weather and climate were either discovered or measured, supposedly with sufficient accuracy for application in a model. These include, El Nino/La Nina (ENSO), the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO), the Antarctic Oscillation (AAO), the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), Dansgaard-Oeschger Oscillation (D-O), Madden-Julian Oscillation (MJO), Indian Ocean Dipole (IOD), among others.
Despite this, we are still unclear about the mechanisms associated with the Hadley Cell and the Inter-tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), which are essentially the entire tropical climate mechanisms. The Milankovitch Effect remains controversial and is not included in IPCC models. The Cosmic Theory appears to provide an answer to the relationship between sunspots, global temperature, and precipitation but is similarly ignored by the IPCC. They do not deal with the Monsoon mechanism well as they note,
In short, most AOGCMs do not simulate the spatial or intra-seasonal variation of monsoon precipitation accurately.
There is very limited knowledge of the major oceanic circulations at the surface and in the depths. There are virtually no measures of the volumes of heat transferred or how they change over time, including measures of geothermal heat.
Physical Mechanisms.
The IPCC acknowledge that,
“In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”
That comment is sufficient to argue for cessation of the waste of time and money. Add the second and related problem identified by Essex and McKitrick in Taken By Storm and it is confirmed.
Climate research is anything but a routine application of classical theories like fluid mechanics, even though some may be tempted to think it is. It has to be regarded in the “exotic’ category of scientific problems in part because we are trying to look for scientifically meaningful structure that no one can see or has ever seen, and may not even exist.
In this regard it is crucial to bear in mind that there is no experimental set up for global climate, so all we really have are those first principles. You can take all the measurements you want today, fill terabytes of disk space if you want, but that does not serve as an experimental apparatus. Engineering apparatus can be controlled, and those running them can make measurements of known variables over a range of controlled physically relevant conditions. In contrast, we have only today’s climate to sample directly, provided we are clever enough to even know how to average middle realm data in a physically meaningful way to represent climate. In short, global climate is not treatable by any conventional means.
Computer capacity
Modelers claim computers are getting better, and all they need are bigger, faster computers. It can’t make any difference, but they continue to waste money. In 2012, Cray introduced the promotionally named Gaea supercomputer (Figure 2). It has a 1.1 petaflops capacity. FLOPS means Floating-Point Operations per Second, and peta is 1016 (or a thousand) million floating-point operations per second. Jagadish Shukla says the challenge is
We must be able to run climate models at the same resolution as weather prediction models, which may have horizontal resolutions of 3-5 km within the next 5 years. This will require computers with peak capability of about 100 petaflops
Regardless of the computer capacity it is meaningless without data for the model.
Figure 2: Cray’s Gaea Computer with the environmental image.
Failed Forecasts, (Predictions, Projections)
Figure 3 shows the IPCC failed forecast. They call them projections, but the public believes they are forecasts. Either way, they are consistently wrong. Notice the labels added to Hayden’s graph taken from the Summary for Policymakers. As the error range increase in the actual data the Summary claims it is improving. One of the computer models used for the IPCC forecast belongs to Environment Canada. Their forecasts are the worst of all of those averaged results used by the IPCC (Figure 4).
Figure 3
Figure 4 Source; Ken Gregory
The Canadian disaster is not surprising as their one-year forecast assessment indicates. They make a one –year forecast and provide a map indicating the percentage of accuracy against the average for the period 1981-2010 (Figure 5).
Figure 5
The Canadian average accuracy percentage is shown in the bottom left as 41.5 percent. That is the best they can achieve after some thirty years of developing the models. Other countries results are no better.
In a New Scientist report Tim Palmer, a leading climate modeller at the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts in Reading England said:
I don’t want to undermine the IPCC, but the forecasts, especially for regional climate change, are immensely uncertain.
The Cost
Joanne Nova has done most research on the cost of climate research to the US government.
In total, over the last 20 years, by the end of fiscal year 2009, the US government will have poured in $32 billion for climate research—and another $36 billion for development of climate-related technologies. These are actual dollars, obtained from government reports, and not adjusted for inflation. It does not include funding from other governments. The real total can only grow.
There is no doubt that number grew, and the world total is likely double the US amount as this commentator claims.
However, at least I can add a reliable half-billion pounds to Joanne Nova’s $79 billion – plus we know already that the EU Framework 7 programme includes €1.9 billion on direct climate change research. Framework 6 runs to €769 million. If we take all the Annex 1 countries, the sum expended must be well over $100 billion.
These are just the computer modeling costs. The economic and social costs are much higher and virtually impossible to calculate. As Paul Driessen explains
As with its polar counterparts, 90% of the titanic climate funding iceberg is invisible to most citizens, businessmen and politicians.
It’s no wonder Larry Bell can say,
The U.S. Government Accounting Office (GAO) can’t figure out what benefits taxpayers are getting from the many billions of dollars spent each year on policies that are purportedly aimed at addressing climate change.
If it is impossible for a supposedly sophisticated agency like US GAO to determine the costs, then there is no hope for a global assessment. There is little doubt the direct cost is measured in trillions of dollars. That does not include the lost opportunities for development and lives continuing in poverty. All this because of the falsified results from completely failed computer model prediction, projections or whatever they want to call them.
It is time to stop the insanity, which in climate science is the repetition of creating computer models that don’t and can’t work? I think so.
“Those who have knowledge don’t predict. Those who do predict don’t have knowledge.” Tzu, Lao (6th Century BC)
Note: this article was updated shortly after publication to fix a text formatting error.
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“The Poles are critical in the dynamics of driving the atmosphere and creating climate”
Doubly true, as Poland often describes EU climate policy as “costly, overambitious, unrealistic in terms of targets, and disproportionally burdensome for the Polish economy.”
And the Pole guy living at the south is increasing its ice extension.
I prefer the guy living at the north pole.
Actually I think the models could do better than 40% if they just accepted that their CO2 theory of warming is just incorrect. They know it and they won’t change it. They must see that their ceteris parabus CO2 theory of warming is countered by some negative feedback phenomena, even if they don’t know what it is. A reading of the virtually universal Le Chatelier Principle (initially identified for chemical reactions and later found to be much broader, is for all intents and purposes a law). If an agent perturbs a system, the system changes such a way as to resist the change. It doesn’t succeed in stopping the change, but less change happens.
This works in the test tube but also anticipates such broader phenomena as Newton’s laws of motion, back-emf in a motor, supply and demand price behavior (push up the price and demand falls, or push up the price and supply increases while demand is falling, causing the price to fall again if supply increase goes too far or is badly timed), friction opposing motion, heating ice water – the ice has to disappear before the temperature begins to go up, buffering ocean ‘acidification’ – adding CO2 re adjusts, the equilibrium of carbonate reaction to resist the reduction in pH – we are having the same kind of fun with this looming ‘disaster’.
I think it suitable to add at least an unknown negative feedback to depress the ceteris paribus CO2 doubling effect to what it appears to be in fact about ~1 C per doubling. It would certainly bring the models into better congruency with the observational records. What is wrong with this idea? Now it still wouldn’t work for ever in a chaotic system but it might work for a couple of decades with some skill. The idiocy is doing it over and over and expecting something different. I think Einstein weighed in on this practice in an unkindly way.
if they were to adjust the CO2 factor from 3.something to 1 then the models would be closer to reality. but that would mean that CO2 has no effect on the climate. has anyone done this? taken just the estimated CO2 feedback out of the model results and see where the “predictions” end up after that, simplistic I know but just a back of an envelope estimation shows that the output of the models will come down in temperature, closer to the actual temp and therefore will be more useful, they may even be right, after all those billions of dollars must have produced some sort of theoretical model that may have some usefulness (minus the cO2 fudge factor)
I did not hear of LeChatelier’s name in my econ course or my physics courses, but I did in my chemistry course. Meanwhile, Earth’s feedbacks to a climate forcing can be positive and were for surges and ebbings of ice age glaciations. However, once the Earth is so ice-covered or so free of snow and ice that a temperature change does not cause significant albedo change, then the total feedback is less positive (or more negative). Also, the lapse rate feedback (a negative one) gets more negative as the Earth gets warmer or greenhouse gases increase.
What ‘unknown’ negative feedback. Any forcing of rise in surface temperature will increase water vaporization. Nature in her infinite wisdom utilizes water vapor to lift heat energy upward to altitudes where water vapor can radiate energy to space. In spite of the random chaotic processes which have entertained physicists for decades, nature has used water vapor to provide a NET cooling. We know this is true since, aside from the direct IR window radiation to space (also a negative feedback) there is no other physical phenomenon available for natural processes to use to rid the planet of the balance of the solar energy being absorbed. Thus evaporated water vapor provides a NET cooling. This is by definition a negative feedback to any rise in surface temperature. To assert that some increment to extra water vapor would result in positive feedback is ludicrous. Nature has already figured this out since it is the only mechanism for ridding the planet from any excess heat from whatever forcing source.
In any case, trying to forecast the behavior of 3 (atmosphere, ocean, sun) chaotic systems is doomed to failure.
I like to call them the 5 spheres.
Atmosphere
hydrosphere
lithosphere
biosphere
cryosphere
Unless your model can successfully juggle all 5 spheres and the constantly changing interactions between them. Then it is useless.
What about that sphere 93 million miles away?
Heliosphere (#6)
magnetosphere very possible also, MarkW.
(hmm… the ‘magic number’ seven?)
#6 -The big sphere that contains all the other spheres.
No. Just no. This site needs to stop giving untrue information to its readers. It says:
Most people don’t know that because it is basically untrue. The HARRY_READ_ME file had nothing to do with the hockey stick graph. It was all about the CRU TS2.1/3.0 data set. Despite that, something like half the text in the link offered is about that file.
Other text is like:
Which is to print warning statements about what was done to the data, hardly a damning thing. Especially since some of the code being referenced is for papers which were never published, papers which went to great length to discuss what they did. Here is an excerpt from a draft of one:
The draft discussed exactly what changes were made to the data and why, then showed what effect the changes had. There’s nothing dishonest or wrong about. I personally don’t think the changes were justified, but I could never claim someone is hiding things by telling me what they’re doing and showing me what effect it has.
If you’re going to say “the actual instructions to “hide the decline” in the tree ring portion of the hockey stick graph were in the computer code,” you need to do things like make sure the code you’re talking about is actually for graphs that were published. And were for hockey stick graphs. And was for hiding a decline. Because most of what readers are linked to wasn’t.
In fact, I’m not sure any of it was. I can’t rule it out though. There was a bit of code there I’m not familiar with. So hey, maybe 5% of it does something to support what this post says?
Tim seems to be engaged lately in a “crusade” to validate the climate models…..
The main logical flaw with this is that it supposes to be the other way around……..that the climate models actually are and exist to validate Tim’s and every one else knowledge of climate and climate system, including the mainstream orthodox climatology and climate knowledge.
Probably somewhere on the line the models do hurt Tim’s feelings in the issue of climate change……
And I think that is the case with many other so called sceptiks.
Still Tim, as any body else, has the right to take any position with this but never the less that does not mean that he will be correct or right about his take in this one.
I do not know and can not even begin to contemplate the possibility of a climate science and progress in climatology without climate models, but some like Tim seem to not have a problem at all with such a non realistic, regressive and backward position…..and the only thing I can say is: “good luck to all of you with your non realistic and “blind” running towards what you may call “knowledge”..”
After all chaos exist in the absence of the knowledge.
cheers
Dr. Ball’s position is not regressive or backward. It is simply realistic. Read my previous illustrated guest post here on this here a few months ago. You evidence severe lack of knowledge about climate models.
1.1 petaflops is 7 orders of magnitude, not 2, below the minimum resolution to approximate convective processes using computational fluid dynamics as is done in weather forecasting. Therefore essential processes like tropical thunderstorms(and therefore water vapor feedback, Lindzens adaptive iris and Eschenbacks albedo governor) cannot be simulated, so must be parameterized. Until the attribution problem can be resolved (anthropogenic forcing v. natural variation), no aproximately correct model parameterization is possible. GCM attribution has been essentially all anthropogenic except for part of the erroneously tuned high aerosols used to cool models to get reasonable hindcasts. Which is why all the models run hot now, and likely will for something like another 15 years if the Curry/Wyatt stadium wave, the Akasofu Arctic ice cycle, the PDO, and the AMO are any indication. It will take at least another half full cycle, about another 30 years of ARGO and UAH, to begin to untangle attribution. And until then, all funding should be stopped as a provable waste of time and money.
Those resources would be far better spent researching basic empirical climate science and weather forecasting (why the absence of Atlantic hurricanes, why the Arctic ice cycle), energy storage, and 4 gen nuclear like MSRs (which will need plenty of detailed engineering design simulation).
Maybe I misunderstood, Whiten. Did you say that we can’t learn to predict the future if we don’t compare our predictions with chicken entrails?
I think you are failing to distinguish prognostic models from process models. As far as I can tell, Dr. Ball’s complaints are mostly if not entirely about prognostic models, and your assertions are, ISTM, most likely to be about process models. If not, then ISTM that your objection to Dr. Ball’s “crusade” is mere assertion, to which you are of course entitled, but which may also be dismissed by mere assertion.
BTW, I think Dr. Ball has given the prognostic models an undeserved pass on their poor hindcasting, but I do know that one can only write about so much at one time.
In your opinion, it’s better to have models that are always wrong, than to have no models at all?
When the climate STOPS changing , THEN we should start worrying !!!!
Just a minor point:
By law the BBC is required from time to time to renew the contracts that it has for all the services that it uses, and this time another forecasting company undercut the Met Office offer.
I understand, though, that the new forecasting company will still be using the information from the Met Office computer to make their forecasts.
That is also my understanding and seems perfectly feasible when you realise that only the UKMO collect data in the UK. HJow much they will have to pay for it and if that cost was factored into their tender only time will tell but these secondary contracts very often fail in the UK
This brings up “Lies, damned lies, Statistics and Climate Forecasting.” A song.
With apologies to Tennessee Ernie Ford:
Some people say people are made outta mud
Global warmists they are, they are chewing their cud,
Chewing their cud and follow Al Gore
A mind that’s a-weak can you ask for much more?
More than one megawatt, and what do you get?
Another prognosis and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don’t you call ’em ’cause you must let ‘em be
They sold their souls to the IPCC.
They came in one mornin’ when the sun didn’t shine
They picked up their papers and continued the grind
They had sixteen conditions, mostly falsified bull
And the straw boss said “Well, a-bless my soul”.
More than one megawatt, and what do you get?
Another prognosis and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don’t you call ’em ’cause you must let ‘em be
They sold their souls to the IPCC.
They came in one mornin’, it was drizzlin’ rain
the prognosis had failed them again and again
The boss harshly told them, You will do many more
Do as I tell you, and agree with Al Gore.
More than one megawatt, and what do you get?
Another prognosis and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don’t you call ’em ’cause you must let ‘em be
They sold their souls to the IPCC.
The cold snap we’re having now, it just cannot last
and hidin’ the warming that occurred in the past
Their ol’ man Mann and his hockey stick.
With conditions like this nothing ever will click.
More than one megawatt, and what do you get?
Another prognosis and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don’t you call ’em ’cause you must let ‘em be
They sold their souls to the IPCC.
http://lenbilen.com/2012/01/31/lies-damned-lies-statistics-and-climate-forecasting-a-song/
*grin* Nice!
As a catastrophic global warming, er, warmist, I want to say a big “No!” to the headline: Is It Time To Stop The Insanity Of Wasting Time and Money On More Climate Models? It is NOT!!!! In fact, we should be even more insane and waste even more money, if that’s possible. Oh sure, we had to drop “hide the decline” and settle for “realign the decline”. And we may even be pushed one day to “redefine the decline”, but, “malign the decline”? — never!!! There is NO place for sanity or belt-tightening when it comes to something as important as the climate.Too many lives (and careers) depend on it. And I am unanimous in this.
errr /sarc
Remind me never to agree with anyone who disagrees with me.
How many supercomputers would it take to provide real time simulation and prediction of the AMO? Start the grant writing. It could be the next virtual high speed rail project.
Dr. Ball, you may have stretched Laozi beyond the breaking point. 😉
So um… yeah. I hadn’t read the entire post before submitting my last comment, since I wasn’t worried about the post as a whole. I’ve always been interested in the hockey stick debate, but global warming as a whole mostly bores me. Still, since I had commented on the post, I thought I should read the post as a whole.
I haven’t managed to do so though. You see, I got kind of stuck when I found out Tim Ball misquoted the IPCC in a rather severe way. He claims:
And had to stop. Why in the world would anyone think that a sufficient reason to stop spending money trying to forecast the weather? Here’s a fuller quote:
Or from another part of the IPCC report being quoted:
All these quotes are saying is we cannot hope to predict exactly what future weather/climate will be via a model. That’s not surprising or remarkable. Nobody thinks we could. We don’t create weather forecasts by running a single model and taking its results. We run models over and over and see which results are the most likely.
That doesn’t prove weather models are useless, yet that’s exactly what this post claims. It claims because the IPCC acknowledges it’s impossible to predict exact climate states, models should be scrapped. That’s beyond silly. Maybe models aren’t worth their costs, but this argument does nothing to show that. If we accept this argument, every weather and climate model in existence would have to be scrapped, including ones many businesses rely upon.
Like your comment — it is better than mine that follows.
With regard to: “. . . {chaos insures] the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”
Too vague about “long term.” Is it a day, a week, a year, a century? Where is the reference showing this chaotic behavior? Don’t appeal to generalities about chaotic systems because:
1) Some chaotic systems have areas of stable behavior for which predictions may be possible and our climate may be in one. Where are the studies showing ore climate isn’t stable?;
2) The displayed temperature behavior may be in error, but doesn’t appear chaotic, so where is the evidence that these errors aren’t due to parameter errors rather than chaos?
“our climate” not “ore climate”
Except the predictions are uniformly way off base from reality and dead wrong. Any business relying on these bad predictions would go bankrupt.
The Australian BOM gave us a prediction that went something like – For the rest of the country, the chance of above average rainfall is 50%.
How much would you pay for a prediction like that?
and they were wrong!!!
I think you misunderstand the mathematical subtleties involved. That IPCC complete statement is skating on very very thin ice.
Let’s take an example: a chaotic system with three attractors. So at any given point it can flip from one attractor, with one sort of average-ish value, to a completely different attractor with another longish term but very different average.
Computing the overall average of all the states is useless, because depending on micro differences, it might stay stuck around an attractor for several centuries, before wandering off to a new one.
I.e it is of no political or economic use to say ‘there are three possible states for the climate in 20 years, it might be 3 degrees warmer, three degrees colder or pretty much the same as it is now, on average with an equal probability of all three’
But that sort of prediction is exactly what prediction of the probability distribution of the system’s future possible states means.
We have established that its bounded – and we have assigned a probability distribution to some possible future states.
The fact that the answer, though accurate, is pragmatically totally useless, is the point being made.
Not “totally useless” — such a prediction might show that warming was limited and not dangerous.
Simply make their funding contingent upon results. For example, if last year’s forecast/projections/predictions are correct, they get money. If not then, bad scientists, no cookie — they get exactly zero.
The Mathematics of Turbulence
Accuracy and Precision
Van Gogh had visual problems. I had cataracts removed that had me seeing blurred clusters of stars from one star and several blurred moons distributed about a centre. I kept one cataract for about 10 years because I could read fine print and see my computer clearly without glasses. Now with ocular implants I can read a licence plate at more than 100 ft, but need reading glasses. Several other painters experienced eye disorders, especially with age, that could be diagnosed from their paintings. Van Gogh’s “math” was simply the chaos of pathological light dispersion.
The problem is the people who believe in AGW will not react to facts and reason. As Aristotle said, ‘some people just cannot be taught’. You can show them graphs, p-value’s, error bars, photo’s of thousands of polar bears enjoying the sun on an oil rig. They will not change their minds with Reason. Until something changes their ‘feelings’, they will go on believing.
Extremely likely that it’s all a fraud?
In a related story by the WSJ on zombie data servers, roughly 10 gw of power is being wasted on them being powered on but not connected or doing anything. I wonder how much CO2 footprint that is.
The 1/14 APS workshop minutes revealed serious doubts about IPCC and GCMs, just didn’t have the cajones to outright say so.
The role of confirmation bias I think overwhelms and has controlled the argument s on global warming. As a non scientist I actually don’t believe there is any correlation between CO 2 and temperature / climate. There would be better correlation between temperature and business cycles. When you start with the aim of establishing whether a correlation exists you can’t start with the assumption that it does theoretically or otherwise. Even many sceptics seem to concede that there is a relationship between CO 2 and temperature. They could’ve just as easily established a theory based on oxygen. The amount of energy and money wasted on proving or disproving correlation with CO 2 has actually perpetuate the scam. By arguing about why models don’t work sceptics have fallen for the trap of assuming that scientifically there should be a correlation between temp and CO 2. I think as a layman there is none both theoretically or otherwise.
CO2 does what physicists say it does but the interaction with negative feedbacks largely neutralizes the effect. The atmosphere/land/water/ice/biophere butts in to counteract the effect. The recent observation by NASA of greening of the planet is an example. Growth in plants is endothermic (it takes heat out of the system). If the plants are growing on a desert, albedo is reduced which would tend to warm things up, but it also anchors moisture and itself emits water vapor, cooling things down. The net effect is to cool the day down and warm up the otherwise cold desert night. This in turn reacts to create more precipitation and…..
The well established physics of CO2’s absorption of long wave radiation gives so much comfort and encouragement to CAGW proponents that isn’t deserved, because the planet reacts in a negative response to it in multiple ways, not only in a part of the biosphere as I have described above.
as said elsewhere:
In engineering and design models are essential tools. In the climate ‘science’ models are essentially for the WUWT’s punters amusement.
In engineering and design models are essential tools.
Yeah, but an engineer’s model has to actually work.
Only because engineers know they have to deal with reality. Climate modelers try to create reality.
Tim Ball says….”Weather forecasts beyond 72 hours typically deteriorate into their error bands.”
So you are saying weather forecasting and predicting climate are the same thing? I’m not so sure they are.
“…weather forecasting and predicting climate are the same thing?”
IPCC AR5 and WMO define climate as weather averaged over thirty years. So, yeah, they are.
Not long term they are not and that is what we are worried about. Very different science.
I agree with you, Simon. He at first seems to conflate weather and climate.
As far as the U.S. goes, I don’t think any congress-critter ever actually funds climate models. Congress funds Departments, Bureaus, and Agencies which fund climate modeling. Only in Washington D.C., when a 12% increase in budget is submitted, is a 7% budget increase called a budget cut (horrors!). From their ever-increasing budgets, the various TLAs allocate funding, some of which is for climate modeling.
Keep in mind that the potential for catastrophe or the need to be doing “sumpthin’ ’bout sumpthin” – no one remembers the original purpose of most of the TLAs anyway – keeps the bureaucracy in place. The way to make the bureaucracy bigger and thus more powerful, is to increase funding on all the various things currently being done and find new things to do, whether or not they are already being done by other agencies.
IMHO, our elected political ‘leaders’ have been overtaken by the entrenched bureaucracies, and climate modeling and climate science are entrenched in the bureaucracies.
Climate modeling will go on being funded and receive increased funding in the U.S. regardless of the wisdom or merit in pursuing a reasonably working climate model and despite the abject failures of the current crop of models. And if by chance a perfect climate was accidentally produced tomorrow, all the agencies would ask for a budget increase to improve it!
Oopsie!
“And if by chance a perfect climate model was accidentally produced tomorrow, all the agencies would ask for a budget increase to improve it!”
Isn’t this what they’re trying to accomplish? If they accidentally create a perfect model, then they will know just what to do to create a perfect climate. Then they can ask for a budget increase to improve it! 😉 /sarc
I don’t want to stop funding climate models because basic research is vital. What I do want is merit based allocation of funds. So 99% of the models lose their entire budget and 1% get more money. It is easy to pick them out. The one or two closest to reality win. This would encourage a lot of accuracy and pit one team against others trying to “fix” the numbers.
“I don’t want to stop funding climate models because basic research is vital.”
This is not in evidence. You are begging the question.
How do we know the ‘close’ models are related to reality? I’ve been thankful that they didn’t by accident match the actual climate at the height of the hysteria over global warming. Getting killed by falling windmill parts or dead geese would become like traffic accidents by now.
Basic research is vital, models aren’t basic research.
Basic research is going out in the field and getting actual data.
Not quite. The number should be 1024, but even if we stick to to conventional 1000’s, peta refers to one quadrillion. Terra is one trillion, Giga one billion, and mega one million. We will have to start using SI notation with computer sizes soon!
Peta gram = giga ton metric
…But Petabytes sounds like a treat cookie for abused dogs.
That is not a bad description of harassed sysadmins.
Of course the BOFH strikes back…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_Operator_From_Hell
I was interested in the second sentence of the post:
‘Weather forecasts beyond 72 hours typically deteriorate into their error bands.’
A reference would be very useful here. Certainly the scientific establishment claim that their performance in weather forecasting is much better than this.
An example comes from Peter Bauer, Alan Thorpe and Gilbert Brunet writing in Nature last week (The quiet revolution of numerical weather prediction, Nature 525, 47–55, 03 September 2015).
The abstract is freely available here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7567/full/nature14956.html
You can also see figure 1 for free at that link (click to enlarge).
According to their figure 1, they are claiming that forecasts have significant value out to 7 days (= 168 hours, more than twice what is claimed by Tim Ball here).
Furthermore, they show a significant improvement in forcast performance over time. According to their statistics you would have to go back to around 1980 before useful performance fell to 72 hours. In the article they claim that both improved data collection and bigger computers have contributed to this improvement.
While Tim Ball’s focus here is on climate, he does kick off with an attack on weather forecasting (‘They are not just marginally wrong. Invariably, the weather is the inverse of their forecast’), and does later refer to workers in ‘weather offices’.
It would be useful if he could clarify the extent to which he really means to critique weather forecasting. If he does, then I think his piece as written is very weakly supported. As it stands I just don’t see the numbers or the supporting references that could be used to demolish an article such as Bauer et al.
If Ball wants to go on the offensive with an openning line, such as ‘forecasts beyond 72 hours typically deteriorate into their error bands’ then he should expect that people will ask him to justify that.
Perhaps he’s referring TWC’s “Weather on the 8’s”. 😉
(I’ve seen them forecast thunderstorms for the day at 5:08 AM and at 6:18 AM forecast clear skies. (Later that day, it rained.))
I have seen that many, many times in Canada !!! They even put out ” Flash Flood ” warnings for my area , then we get a sprinkle of 2 MM !!!
Who needs skepticism when you have anecdotes.
A weather forecaster at WTAE-TV Channel 4 in Pittsburgh has started issuing a “4-degree guarantee”: “Every weekday during the 5pm newscast, Mike Harvey will give viewers his 4-Degree Guarantee. He guarantees the next day’s high temperature will be within 4 degrees of what he predicts.”
http://www.wtae.com/weather/pittsburghs-action-weather-with-the-4degree-guarantee/32379066
As far as I can tell, that’s +/- 4 degrees (F). In other words, this weather forecaster is claiming bragging rights if he gets a day-ahead high-temp forecast within a nine-degree range.
https://www.google.es/search?q=Deteriorate&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XAL4Ve6yDMGRaNHaprgF
Deteriorate: “become progressively worse.”
“Deteriorate into their error bands” doesn’t mean fall to zero instantly, it means there’s less accuracy at 4 days, even less at 5, with very minimum utility at 7 days per your referenced paper.
I’m a surfer, I know quite well how long and even under what conditions a forecast is good for. (e.g. if there’s an approaching low, plus/ minus 100km on the center will dramatically alter surfing conditions)
Peter