Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Well, I was going to write about hourly albedo changes, honest I was, but as is often the case I got sidetractored. My great thanks to Joanne Nova for highlighting a mostly unknown paper on the error estimate for the Argo dataset entitled On the accuracy of North Atlantic temperature and heat storage fields from Argo by R. E. Hadfield et al., hereinafter Hadfield2007. As a bit of history, three years ago in a post entitled “Decimals of Precision” I pointed out inconsistencies in the prevailing Argo error estimates. My calculations in that post showed that their claims of accuracy were way overblown.
The claims of precision at the time, which are unchanged today, can be seen in Figure 1(a) below from the paper Observed changes in top-of-the-atmosphere radiation and upper-ocean heating consistent within uncertainty, Norman G. Loeb et al, paywalled here, hereinafter Loeb2012
Figure 1. This shows Fig. 1(a) from Loeb2012. ORIGINAL CAPTION: a, Annual global averaged upper-ocean warming rates computed from first differences of the Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory/Jet Propulsion Laboratory/Joint Institute for Marine and Atmospheric Research (PMEL/JPL/JIMAR), NODC, and Hadley, 0–700 m
I must apologize for the quality of the graphics, but sadly the document is paywalled. It’s OK, I just wanted to see their error estimates.
As you can see, Loeb2012 is showing the oceanic heating rates in watts per square metre applied over each year. All three groups report about the same size of error. The error in the earliest data is about 1 W/m2. However, the size of the error starts decreasing once the Argo buoys started coming on line in 2006. At the end of their record all three groups are showing errors well under half a watt per square metre.
Figure 2. This shows Fig. 3(a) from Loeb2012. Black shows the available heat for storage as shown by the CERES satellite data. Blue shows heating rates to 1800 metres, and red shows heating rates to 700 metres. ORIGINAL CAPTION: a, Global annual average (July to June) net TOA flux from CERES observations (based on the EBAF-TOA_Ed2.6 product) and 0–700 and 0–1,800 m ocean heating rates from PMEL/JPL/JIMAR
Here we see that at the end of their dataset the error for the 1800 metre deep layer was also under half a watt per square metre.
But how much temperature change does that half-watt per square metre error represent? My rule of thumb is simple.
One watt per square metre for one year warms one cubic metre of the ocean by 8°C
(Yeah, it’s actually 8.15°C, but I do lots of general calcs, so a couple of percent error is OK for ease of calculation and memory). That means a half watt for a year is 4°C per cubic metre.
So … for an 1800 metre deep layer of water, Loeb2012 is saying the standard error of their temperature measurements is 4°C / 1800 = about two thousandths of a degree C (0.002°C). For the shallower 700 metre layer, since the forcing error is the same but the mass is smaller, the same error in W/m2 gives a larger temperature error of 4°C / 700, which equals a whopping temperature error of six thousandths of a degree C (0.006°C).
I said at that time that this claimed accuracy, somewhere around five thousandths of a degree (0.005°C), was … well … highly unlikely.
Jo Nova points out that curiously, the paper was written in 2007, but it got little traction at the time or since. I certainly hadn’t read it when I wrote my post cited above. The following paragraphs from their study are of interest:
ABSTRACT:
…
Using OCCAM subsampled to typical Argo sampling density, it is found that outside of the western boundary, the mixed layer monthly heat storage in the subtropical North Atlantic has a sampling error of 10–20 Wm2 when averaged over a 10 x 10 area. This error reduces to less than 10 Wm2 when seasonal heat storage is considered. Errors of this magnitude suggest that the Argo dataset is of use for investigating variability in mixed layer heat storage on interannual timescales. However, the expected sampling error increases to more than 50 Wm2 in the Gulf Stream region and north of 40N, limiting the use of Argo in these areas.
and
Our analysis of subsampled temperature fields from the OCCAM model has shown that in the subtropical North Atlantic, the Argo project provides temperature data at a spatial and temporal resolution that results in a sampling uncertainty in mixed layer heat storage of order 10–20 Wm−2. The error gets smaller as the period considered increases and at seasonal [annual] timescales is reduced to 7 ± 1.5 Wm−2. Within the Gulf Stream and subpolar regions, the sampling errors are much larger and thus the Argo dataset will be less useful in these regions for investigating variability in the mixed layer heat storage.
Once again I wanted to convert their units of W/m2 to a temperature change. The problem I have with the units many of these papers use is that “7 ± 1.5 Wm−2” just doesn’t mean much to me. In addition, the Argo buoys are not measuring W/m2, they’re measuring temperatures and converting them to W/m2. So my question upon reading the paper was, how much will their cited error of “7 W/m2″ for one year change the temperature of the “mixed layer” of the North Atlantic? And what is the mixed layer anyhow?
Well, they’ve picked a kind of curious thing to measure. The “mixed layer” is the top layer of the ocean that is mixed by both the wind and by the nightly overturning of the ocean. It is of interest in a climate sense because it’s the part of the ocean that responds to the changing temperatures above. It can be defined numerically in a number of ways. Basically, it’s the layer from the surface down to the “thermocline”, the point where the ocean starts cooling rapidly with depth. Jayne Doucette of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute has made a lovely drawing of most of the things that go in the mixed layer. [For unknown reasons she’s omitted one of the most important circulations, the nightly overturning of the upper ocean.]
Figure 3. The mixed layer, showing various physical and biological process occurring in the layer.
According to the paper, the definition that they have chosen is that the mixed layer is the depth at which the ocean is 0.2°C cooler than the temperature at ten metres depth. OK, no problem, that’s one of the standard definitions … but how deep is the mixed layer?
Well, the problem is that the mixed layer depth varies by both location and time of year. Figure 4 shows typical variations in the depth of the mixed layer at a single location by month.
Figure 4. Typical variations of the depth of the mixed layer by month. Sorry, no provenance for the graph other than Wiki. Given the temperatures I’m guessing North Atlantic. In any case, it is entirely representative of the species.
You can see how the temperature is almost the same all the way down to the thermocline, and then starts dropping rapidly.
However, I couldn’t find any number for the average mixed layer depth anywhere. So instead, I downloaded the 2°x2° mixed layer depth monthly climatology dataset entitled “mld_DT02_c1m_reg2.0_Global.nc” from here and took the area-weighted average of the mixed layer depth. It turns out that globally the mixed layer depth averages just under sixty metres. The whole process for doing the calculations including writing the code took about half an hour … I’ve appended the code for those interested.
Then I went on to resample their 2°x2° dataset to a 1°x1° grid, which of course gave me the same answer for the average, but it allowed me to use my usual graphics routines to display the depths.
Figure 5. Average mixed layer depth around the globe. Green and blue areas show deeper mixed layers.
I do love climate science because I never know what I”ll have to learn in order to do my research. This time I’ve gotten to explore the depth of the mixed layer. As you might imagine, in the stormiest areas the largest waves mix the ocean to the greatest depths, which are shown in green and blue. You can also see the mark of the El Nino/La Nina along the Equator off the coast of Ecuador. There, the trade winds blow the warm surface waters to the west, and leave the thermocline closer to the surface. So much to learn … but I digress. I could see that there were a number of shallow areas in the North Atlantic, which was the area used for the Argo study. So I calculated the average mixed layer depth for the North Atlantic (5°N-65°N, 0°W-90°W. This turns out to be 53 metres, about seven metres shallower than the global average.
Now, recalling the rule of thumb:
One watt per square metre for one year raises one cubic metre of seawater about eight degrees.
Using the rule of thumb with a depth of 53 metres, one W/m2 over one year raises 53 cubic metres (mixed layer depth) of seawater about 8/53 = .15°C. However, they estimate the annual error at seven W/m2 (see their quote above). This means that Hadfield2007 are saying the Argo floats can only determine the average annual temperature of the North Atlantic mixed layer to within plus or minus 1°C …
Now, to me that seems reasonable. It is very, very hard to accurately measure the average temperature of a wildly discontinuous body of water like oh, I don’t know, say the North Atlantic. Or any other ocean.
So far, so good. Now comes the tough part. We know that Argo can measure the temperature of the North Atlantic mixed layer with an error of ±1°C. Then the question becomes … if we could measure the whole ocean with the same density of measurements as the Argo North Atlantic, what would the error of the final average be?
The answer to this rests on a curious fact—assuming that the errors are symmetrical, the error of the average of a series of measurements, each of which has its own inherent error, is smaller than the average of the individual errors. If the errors are all equal to say E, then if we are averaging N items each of which has an error E, the error scales as
sqrt(N)/N
So for example if you are averaging one hundred items each with an error of E, your error is a tenth of E [ sqrt(100)/100 ].
If the 118 errors are not all equal, on the other hand, then what scales by sqrt(N)/N is not the error E but
sqrt(E^2 + SD^2)
where SD is the standard deviation of the errors.
Now, let’s assume for the moment that the global ocean is measured at the same measurement density as the North Atlantic in the study. It’s not, but let’s ignore that for the moment. Regarding the 700 metre deep layer, we need to determine how much larger in volume it is than the volume of the NA mixed layer. It turns out that the answer is that the global ocean down to 700 metres is 118 times the volume of the NA mixed layer.
Unfortunately, while we know the mean error (7 W/m2 = 1°C), we don’t know the standard deviation of those errors. However, they do say that there are many areas with larger errors. So if we assumed something like a standard deviation of say 3.5 W/m2 = 0.5°C, we’d likely be conservative, it may well be larger.
Putting it all together: IF we can measure the North Atlantic mixed layer with a mean error of 1° C and an error SD of 0.5°C, then with the same measurement density we should be able to measure the global ocean to
sqrt(118)/118 * sqrt( 1^2 + 0.5^2 ) = 0.1°C
Now, recall from above that Loeb2012 claimed an error of something like 0.005°C … which appears to be optimistic by a factor of about twenty.
And my guess is that underestimating the actual error by a factor of 20 is the best case. I say this because they’ve already pointed out that “the expected sampling error increases to more than 50 Wm2 in the Gulf Stream region and north of 40N”. So their estimate doesn’t even hold for all of the North Atlantic
I also say it is a best case because it assumes that a) the errors are symmetrical, and that b) all parts of the ocean are sampled with the same frequency as the upper 53 metres of the Mediterranean. I doubt if either of those is true, which would make the uncertainty even larger.
In any case, I am glad that once again, mainstream science verifies the interesting work that is being done here at WUWT. If you wonder what it all means, look at Figure 1, and consider that in reality the errors bars are twenty times larger … clearly, with those kinds of errors we can say nothing about whether the ocean might be warming, cooling, or standing still.
Best to all,
w.
PS: I’ve been a bit slow writing this because a teenage single mother and her four delinquent children seem to have moved in downstairs … and we don’t have a downstairs. Here they are:
CUSTOMARY REQUEST: If you disagree with someone, please quote the exact words you find problems with, so that all of us can understand your objection.
CODE: These days I mostly use the computer language “R” for all my work. I learned it a few years ago at the urging of Steve McIntyre, and it’s far and away the best of the dozen or so computer languages I’ve written code in. The code for getting the weighted average mixed layer depth is pretty simple, and it gives you an idea of the power of the language.
# specify URL and file name ----------------------------------------------- mldurl="http://www.ifremer.fr/cerweb/deboyer/data/mld_DT02_c1m_reg2.0.nc" mldfile="Mixed Layer Depth DT02_c1m_reg2.0.nc" # download file ----------------------------------------------------------- download.file(mldurl,mldfile) # extract and clean up variable ( 90 rows latitude by 180 colums longitude by 12 months) nc=open.ncdf(mldfile) mld=aperm(get.var.ncdf(nc,"mld"),c(2,1,3)) #the “aperm” changes from a 180 row 90 col to 90 x 180 mld[mld==1.000000e+09]=NA # replace missing values with NA # create area weights ------------(they use a strange unequal 2° grid with the last point at 89.5°N) latline=seq(-88,90,2) latline[90]=89.5 latline=cos(latline*pi/180) latmatrix2=matrix(rep(latline,180),90,180) # take array gridcell averages over the 12 months mldmap=rowMeans(mld,dims = 2,na.rm = T) dim(mldmap) #checking the dimensions of the result, 90 latitude x 180 longitude [1] 90 180 # take weighted mean of gridcells weighted.mean(mldmap,latmatrix2,na.rm=T) [1] 59.28661

First off a watt is a power unit, energy over time, 3.412 Btu/lb or 3,600 kJ/kg.
1.0 W/m^2
3.412 Btu/h/m^2
29,889 Btu/y/m^2
1.0 m^3
35.34 ft^3
2,205.0 lb
1.0 Btu/lb-°F
13.56 °F
7.53 C
However, water evaporates at about 950 to 1,000 Btu/lb so just a minor amount of evaporation can easily compensate for the sensible heating. A few more clouds, big deal. And IPCC credits clouds with a -20 W/m^2 of radiative forcing, ten times the positive forcing of CO2.
Good post Willis
Willis,
The answer to your question about nightly overturning. Oceanographers just consider that to be an element of the mixed layer. Which is simply the layer of water that mixes due to Shear overcoming stability forces in the ocean. This layer is highly variable 1000’+ meters in the Labrador sea, Weddell sea and Antarctic waters. In most tropical areas and mid latitudes the mixed layer is 25-200meters and it changes hourly, with that change being greatest in the winter time during storms. As you mentioned the drivers are solar heating, evaporation, Long wave heating, Long wave radiation, wind speed etc. So it is impossible to quantify globally just using back of the envelope math. There are scientists who spend there whole lives working with this issue as the mixed layer is where most of the interesting things happen in the ocean.
On a side note, the idea that ARGO floats get a different answer than someone taking a transect of the ocean at any given time is not due to the equipment doing the measuring but the fact that the temperature in the mixed layer changes fast and often enough that one measurement a day is not good enough to capture the envelope of the data.
v/r,
David Riser
David Riser June 7, 2015 at 8:45 am
Yes it is an element of the mixed layer … which is why it was curious that it wasn’t included in the drawing.
I just gave you a map in the head post showing the mixed layer depth around the globe, so I’m not sure why you are making such claims. Nowhere is it “1000+ metres” as a monthly or annual average. Hang on …
OK. For monthly variations, the range is from 10 metres down to 772 metres. For annual averages the range is from 12 to 220 metres. In the tropics the range of the monthly variations are 10 to 167 metres depth.
It’s totally unclear who and what you are talking about when you say “it is impossible to quantify globally just using back of the envelope math.” If you have a problem with someone’s math, quote the math that they have put forward and show us exactly where it’s wrong. This is why I ask people to quote what your disagree with.
Best regards,
w.
Willis,
Making rough estimates using math where calculus and precise measurement are required is back of the envelope math. All I am saying is your math is ball parking it and your missing some critical pieces of information. The mixed layer in the mentioned areas Labrador Sea, Weddell Sea and Antarctic can be over 1000 meters deep. This is where surface water descends to the deeps and creates the various bottom waters that make up most of the ocean. This is basic Oceanography. The papers definition of the mixed layer is not a standard Oceanography definition as mixed layer depth is not temperature dependent in all areas of the globe.
A good book on this subject: https://books.google.com/books?id=X0PDBca_EqEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=weddell+sea+mixed+layer&source=bl&ots=o70gfSaZOY&sig=I4gT2EvVKZ-1G2hp3Gb5Oxeckek&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UaZ0Ve2LMoutyQSS-YIQ&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=weddell%20sea%20mixed%20layer&f=false
So your average over the earth of 60 meters is not very useful when the variance is as large as it is. And a Annual average in a cyclic system is also somewhat useless. The overturning is not in itself a driver. It is driven by those other things i.e. surface water cools at night (long wave radiation and evaporation) which causes it to become denser and seek equilibrium. This is not any different than water heating during the day and stratifying the water column and being mixed by a strong wind.
Interesting write-up as always Willis. Normally your estimates are pretty good but in this case even the definition of mixed layer is being seriously abused by both the paper your referring to as well as your own math.
v/r,
David Riser
David Riser June 7, 2015 at 1:31 pm
I understand that is all you are saying. I’m saying that it’s far from enough. Let me repeat what I said, this time in bold print:
If you have a problem with someone’s math, quote the math that they have put forward and show us exactly where it’s wrong. This is why I ask people to quote what your disagree with.
It’s great for you to wave your hands and claim some unknown something else is wrong with my work. But if you want to diss my math, David, you’ll have to do far better than that.
w.
David Riser June 7, 2015 at 1:31 pm Edit
The paper’s definition of the mixed layer is indeed a standard definition, one of three or so. Since both the paper and my dataset used that definition, it allowed me to calculate the values. Sorry, no errors there.
Dear heavens, you haven’t even calculated the variance and now you want to tell me about it?
That is simply not true. An annual average is unsuited for some purposes and perfectly appropriate for others.
First, nocturnal overturning is most assuredly different from wind-driven overturning. The former occurs whether there is wind or not.
Next, please provide a quotation where I ever said that nocturnal overturning is a “driver”. QUOTE WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH!!
And despite claiming my math is flawed, you’ve provided absolutely no math of your own, no code, no data. You haven’t identified a single flaw in my math. You make claims about the variance of the mixed layer depth without ever calculating it.
My honest suggestion would be for you to start over, David. Go to the place where I got my data, it’s linked in the head post. They have data for THREE DEFINITIONS OF THE MIXED LAYER. Grab the definition you want and show us where the mixed layer depth is 1000 metres deep. Because there is nothing that deep in the dataset I have, or even three-quarters that deep.
Unfortunately, until you actually do that kind of calculation, you’re just waving your hands and making claims.
w.
David, a final note. You say “So your average over the earth of 60 meters is not very useful when the variance is as large as it is.”
In fact, the standard deviation of the data shown in Figure 5 is a mere 27 metres. I certainly see no reason that makes the average less than useful.
Regards,
w.
Willis,
One more shot at this. Simply put your math is essentially ok. It is back of the envelope because you are using modeled output that was created based off data over a 70 or so year span. You are using one criteria (they aren’t calling it a definition) that they used, not the blending of the three. They openly admit that due to their criteria any MLD less than 10 meters will be 10 meters. The mixed layer depth is actually defined using several equations that are not solvable without making assumptions. Frequently what is found is not what would be calculated.
So you took average data taken over a span of 70 years or so made the assumption that your data set completely defines MLD took an average and then used the same assumption on MLD depth to calculate a theoretical error for the ARGO dataset.
So on the back of an envelope you compared a 1/3 of a model built from historical data and compared it to actual data to create a theoretical error rate.
Mixed layer depth is highly variable, changes hourly based on many more factors than just temperature.
Don’t take my word for it. This link is to an online oceanography textbook (chapter 8 section 5 and 6) that describes the necessary math if you want to go for a round two. You would still be using a model since there is no global current MLD dataset of actual conditions.
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/ocng_textbook/chapter08/chapter08_05.htm
v/r,
David Riser
David Riser June 8, 2015 at 12:05 am Edit
Willis,
Yep.
Nope. I used their dataset to give me a reasonable estimate of the average mixed layer depth in the North Atlantic, which was 53 metres.
Yes, I know that David. But I have to analyze the information I’m given. I was given information regarding the heat content estimates for the North Atlantic mixed layer. To convert them to temperatures I used the mean of the monthly estimated depths of the mixed layer. And yes, that is an estimation, and contains errors … so what?
Thanks, David. I know lots about the variability of the mixed layer—I’m both a recreational and sport diver. So I know how much and how fast it changes, been there, dived that.
But I have to use the best information I can to make my estimates. My estimate of the MLD of the North Atlantic was 53 metres, and I haven’t noticed you offering a better number. It gave me the estimate that the full global 700 m data covered about 118 times the volume of the NA MLD … if you have better estimates bring them out.
You’re letting the perfect get in the way of the good. I’m just looking for a go/no-go decision on whether I can trust the Argo claims. I see that I can’t because my best case scenario is that their errors are underestimated by about 20 times … do I care if it’s actually out by 22 times because my MXL depth wasn’t perfect? Not in the slightest. Makes no difference to my analysis.
My best to you, and thanks for hanging in,
w.
Tony June 6, 2015 at 11:21 pm says:
Thanks, Tony, and mmm … yes and no. To start with, you are conflating two arguments. One is that we can never average something like the ocean. The other is that there is no end to the increase in accuracy from repeated measurements.
First, let me make a crucial distinction very clear. Accuracy is whether your answer is right. Precision is whether your answer is repeatable. These two are 100% different things, and we must be careful which one we are talking about. Suppose you shoot ten shots at a target. They make some kind of grouping. Accuracy is whether the grouping of shots is centered on the bullseye. Precision, on the other hand, is how tight the grouping of shots is, regardless of where they land. Different things.
With that distinction in mind, let me say that averaging in general improves precision, but not necessarily accuracy.
Bear in mind that we may need either accuracy, precision, or both for a particular task. For example, if I need to know my weight to see which weight-class I might be in, I need accuracy.
But if I want to know if I’m gaining or losing weight, all I need is precision. Even if my scale might be off by five pounds, it can tell me if I gain or lose one pound.
Returning to your two arguments, I see both arguments a lot. Basically, the first argument says that error reduction is only possible where you have repeated measurements of the exact same thing, and that the thing must be in your words homogeneous.
So let’s imagine, not an ocean, but a swimming pool. Half is in the sun, half in shadow. The two ends are slightly different temperatures. The top surface is evaporating constantly. The bottom and sides are at the temperature of the surrounding earth. Every part of the pool is at a different temperature, the conditions are totally heterogeneous. Just like the ocean, on a smaller scale and with smaller variations, but equally heterogeneous. You ask me to give you my best estimate of the average pool temperature.
So I place my only thermometer into what I figure is about the middle of the pool, and I take a temperature. “20°C”, I say. You tell me you want a more accurate estimate. So I say hang on, let me measure in a few more places and I’ll give you a better number.
You tell me that won’t work … your theory is that because the pool is far from homogeneous, repeated measurements won’t improve the accuracy of my estimate of the average pool temperature.
You see the problem with your first claim? Regardless of how heterogeneous whatever we are measuring might be, adding more measurements can only improve and reduce the error of our estimate.
Now, is repeated measurement improving the accuracy of the estimate of the pool temperature? Nope, not in the slightest. If my thermometer is off by 2°C, our average will be off by 2°C no matter how many measurements we take.
But it does improve the precision of our estimate. I take my thermometer and I measure it at a bunch of different points. If those points vary a lot because the data is inhomogeneous, that is reflected as a larger standard error of our estimated temperature. But it will assuredly improve my estimate.
So regarding your first claim, even if the data is heterogeneous, additional measurements can only help to reduce the error.
Remember, however, that this is only the precision and not the accuracy. It is this confusion that has led to you saying:
Curiously, that’s true … but only of the precision of the resulting estimate. Remember that precision only means repeatability. So all we are saying is that if we took another million [pool] owners and repeated the experiment, the averages would be within a thousandth of a degree of each other … which is true but says NOTHING AT ALL about the actual temperature of the water.
That requires accuracy, and accuracy is a function of the measuring device. In the Argo case the nominal accuracy is ±0.005°C, and actual floats pulled from the ocean and checked have maintained their accuracy around that range. The problem with Argo is sampling error and heterogeneity, not instrument error. Even with all of those floats the ocean is still undersampled. Here’re some rough numbers:
3.5E+8 square kilometers of ocean
3.5E+2 Argo floats
That’s one float per million square kilometres … it is that, and not the accuracy of the instrumentation, which is the source of the errors. That’s why it’s called a “sampling error”, because the ocean is undersampled.
Finally, while we can increase precision by repeated averaging, in the real world I have a rule of thumb which is that I’m reluctant to claim more than one decimal place improvement over the precision of the instrument that took the reading. So if someone is averaging thermometers that are graduated in whole degrees, claiming errors that are in hundredths of a degree raises a flag. Might be possible, but it’s getting out there.
However, in this case the instrumental accuracy is 0.005, so it’s not an issue and likely won’t ever be.
I hope this assists you,
w.
Willis,
Apologies if my maths is too old school for this: –
You write –
QUOTE
3.5E+8 square kilometers of ocean
3.5E+2 Argo floats
END QUOTE
Now, I think – open to correction, as it’s decades since I was taught maths – that 3.5E+2 = 3.5 x 100 = 350
Yet:
QUOTE
What is Argo?
Argo is a global array of more than 3,000 free-drifting profiling floats that measures thetemperature (Auto – their error, cut and pasted with fidelity) and salinity of the upper 2000 m of the ocean. This allows, for the first time, continuous monitoring of the temperature, salinity, and velocity of the upper ocean, with all data being relayed and made publicly available within hours after collection.
END QUOTE
From
this link – http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/
“more than 3,000 free-drifting profiling floats ”
Now, this still gives one Argo float for every 100 000 square kilometres of the ocean, (on average).
An Area greater than – say – Hungary or Portugal; Indiana or Maine; New Brunswick; or the ten biggest ceremonial counties of England all aggregated (per Wikipedia, with its well-known accuracy, reliability and utter freedom from bias, which even I can edit) . . . .
Roughly, a circle of water with a diameter of 220 miles.
And all measured by one probe (on average) – so most of the area measured/sampled is (on average) more than 90 kilometres from the sampling point.
QUOTE
. . . it is that, and not the accuracy of the instrumentation, which is the source of the errors. That’s why it’s called a “sampling error”, because the ocean is undersampled.
END QUOTE
Absolutely.
Fully agree.
The ocean is – badly – under-sampled.
The ocean is pretty big, as has been observed on WUWT before.
It is still true!
Auto
auto June 7, 2015 at 1:22 pm Edit
Well spotted, auto. You are right, I was wrong. So the calculation should be
3.5E+8 square kilometers of ocean
3.5E+3 Argo floats
Which gives one Argo float per hundred thousand square km, not a million.
However, the point remains. The ocean is undersampled.
Thanks for pointing out the error, that’s how understanding advances,
w.
Interesting how clearly the Gulf Stream shows up in the map.
Good catch, Stefan, I hadn’t picked up on that. The Gulf Stream is basically a well-mixed river of warm water that is running on top of the more static underlying cold water. I’m surprised by the depth of it, though, that’s getting near 70-80 metres or so.
You see somewhat the same thing in the Pacific. There, however, the transport of warm water to the poles is not constant like the Gulf Stream. Instead, the warm water is intermittently pumped polewards by the El Nino/La Nina pump. As a result, the track is less definite, but discernible nonetheless e.g. off the coast of Japan.
Thanks,
w.
Please see post below at 11:30 am
Your pool probably has a pump circulating the water through a heater. The pump’s suction line will have a thermometer/thermostat in it telling the heater to fire or not based on the thermostat’s set point. Depending on the location of suction and return the thermometer could give a fairly accurate average temperature of the water. Precision would depend on the quality/calibration of the thermostat, +/- 1%, +/- 0.25%. And then we could get into control theory on the swing in temperature depending on firing rate, overshoot, pool heat loss, ambient conditions, etc. (That’s the BSME and 35 years of power gen coming through.)
Perhaps the ocean’s thermal circulation between geothermal heat flux on the floor and cold water sinking from the surface is analogous. Now if we could just find that suction line and thermostat in the oceans.
So it has been 105 F for a week in Phoenix. The pool is shaded from direct sun light. I like it warm, 85 F. To keep the water that way requires heating. How come? If the heater fails pool water is going to cool off even though the air is 105 F. If air heats water per CAGW theories how come the pool doesn’t heat up to 105 F? Actually evaporation from the surface is going to drive the pool’s temperature towards the ambient wet bulb.
Same with oceans. Evaporation and the water cycle in general are the climate thermostat, adding heat when needed, letting everything cool when needed, all maintaining a relatively comfortable stable millennia of climate with the swinging characteristics typical of any control loop.
(The popular atmospheric CO2 heat trapping blanket theory ignores this water vapor thermostat.)
And if your pool doesn’t have a cover, the sky is a big heat sink.
And if your pool doesn’t have a cover, the sky is a big heat sink.
Willis,
This method of getting at the standard error of the mean is true only if the measurements are independent and drawn from identical distributions. This is one issue I have with the error estimates of large data sets like the Argo buoys or surface temperatures and so forth–no one seems interested to verify that the measurements are independent and identically distributed, but continue to use this formula just the same. Another issue I have is that, to my knowledge, no one has bothered to recover any of the buoys to document drift over time. Finally, I have one additional issue that I have mentioned in various posts on the Argo buoys about three times, but no one responds.
There is a potential secular bias in the instruments. In effect the buoys intend to measure the time integrated partial derivative of temperature with respect to time. But they cannot actually do so. What they actually measure is the integrated total derivative of temperature with respect to time. The difference between the two is an advective term proportional to the dot product of lateral buoy velocity with the lateral temperature gradient. This term will not average to zero when integrated over time because the buoys, being buoyant, will tend to drift toward higher ocean surface, and ocean temperature is correlated with ocean surface topography. It may be a small bias, but the reported temperature increases are small too, and it seems to me to be a bias baked into the measurement system. Nothing I have ever read about the Argo buoys appears to address this issue. Do you, or anyone else reading this thread, know if this issued has ever been addressed? If it is not addressed why should anyone think the measurements document a credible temperature change with time?
“the buoys, being buoyant, will tend to drift toward higher ocean surface”
This effect, if it exists at all, will be completely negligible, since the buoys spend most of their time “parked” 1,000 or 2,000 meters below surface and their drift will be mostly due to currents at this depth.
However the drift is non-random. A check of sites where measurements have been taken show that buoys strongly “avoid” upwelling areas and large river mouths as well as deep basins enclosed by shallows, none of which is surprising. There are also no measurements from sea-ice areas, but this is probably more due to the buoys being unable to surface there.
K. Kilty June 7, 2015 at 10:54 am
Indeed, that is correct. It’s part of why I said that what I was presenting was the best case scenario.There’re lots of ways for it to get worse.
It has been done more than once, although I don’t have the citation to hand.
Mmmm … I think you misunderstand the floats. They sleep a thousand metres down. As a result, they spend very little time on the surface, only enough time for ET to radio home. Then they drop back down a thousand metres and go back to sleep.
As a result, the buoys don’t tend to “drift toward higher ocean surface”.
Let me repeat the image from above:
If anything, the buoys are under-represented in the warmest part of the tropics, the ITCZ. So indeed there is a small bias there.
However, provided that the distribution is relatively unchanging, the bias should not be a problem for what we really want to determine. Usually we’re interested in the trends, not the absolute values.
Thanks for the interesting questions,
w.
re Willis Eschenbach June 7, 2015 at 12:59 pm
This map is interesting, but I think you’ll find the ITCZ is the zone, just above the equator, where we see *more* floats? Either side there is a bit less float density. This would suggest that there is some drift towards ITCZ, There will be surface winds and wind induced surface currents as this is where there is most rising air. Air is drawn in either side and thus deflected westwards by Coriolis forces causing the warm westward currents either side of ITCZ.
KK says : “the buoys, being buoyant, will tend to drift toward higher ocean surface”
No a buoy is a massive object and will go to the lowest gravitational potential : a dip, like a ball on uneven ground.
The sea level is higher along ITCZ but that is due to the same winds and wind driven currents that seem to affect ARGO distribution. You raise a valid and interesting point that had not occurred to me before, just the logic was wrong about the cause.
I’m sure Karl et al can make suitable correction to ARGO to create some more global warming using this information 😉
Willis,
Thanks so much for taking time to post this detailed response. However, it is precisely because the floats drift at depth (any depth really) that I see a potential for warm temperature bias. You can see my thinking in the response to “Mike” way down below at about 9:35 PDT. After reading your response, and Mike’s, I see that this is a really complex issue, and I plan to pirate some of your “R” code to use position of floats over time to investigate it. Let’s see if the distribution stays constant with time.
Regards,
Kevin Kilty
“document drift over time”….I mean document instrumental drift.
Willis
Just to be sure, in your article above you state that the trade winds blow the warm surface waters to the west in reference to the El Nino. A fact check. Probably mean from the west.
No, I mean what I said. The trade winds blow the warm water towards the west. To do so, of course, the trade winds themselves blow from the east. It’s an oddity about currents and winds. Winds are named for where they blow from, while currents are named for where they flow to.
w.
And like electric charge, it’s rather inelegant.
Hmm.
Gulf Stream and Peru (Humboldt) Current are not named by where they flow to. (Do not know how to make a bold font like you did)
I think it is sort of random as to naming of currents.
Not that it really matters.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Corrientes-oceanicas.png
“Wha’choo talkin’ bout Willis?”
Willis, thanks for the lesson on wind direction…That was helpfluph. El Nino gets stacked up against Equador because the trade winds blow the warm waters towards the EAST!
R.
One watt per square metre for one year warms one cubic metre of the ocean by 8°C
Willis, your thumb is not quite right. 🙂
Earth-surface = 510.1 x 10 ^ 12 m^2 (the oceans are only 70.8% of earth’s surface, but this drops out of equations)
1 W/m^2 * 510.1 x 10^12 m^2 = 510.1 x 10^12 Watts
510.1 x 10^12 Watts (J/sec) * 31,536,000 sec/year = 1.61 x 10^22 Joules/year
Ocean Cp ~= 4185 J/kg/K
1 m^3 of water = 1000 kg
T = E/M/Cp = 1.61 x 10^22 J / 1000 kg / 4185 = 3.84 x 10^15 C. <== that's a lot more than 8.
Your thumb probably meant to say 1 meter of ocean depth. In this case:
T = E/M/Cp = 1.61 x 10^22 J / 510.1 x 10 ^ 12 m^3 / 1000 kg/m^3 / 4185 J/kg/K = 7.53 C
Revised rule of Mr. Thumb:
One watt per square meter for one year warms one meter deep of water by 7.5°C
Viking Explorer
Well, if you are starting from a 510 total Mkm^2 of a spherical earth surface, then the radiation at top of atmosphere varies over the year – but can be averaged out, but you cannot use 1000 watts/m^2 at bottom of atmosphere anywhere but the “average” at noon between 23.5 north and -23.5 south.
Everywhere else the approximation gets further and further from the approximate world of approximate flat-earth of Trenberth (er, NASA-GISS) siplified models
Mr. Cook, sounds reasonable, but where did I use 1000 W/m^2. I believe that this rule of thumb is just meant to provide an energy equivalent.
Hey, That’s what I got in English units!
nickreality65 June 7, 2015 at 7:24 am
ahh, yes, I see that now. My mind filters out anything with old fashioned units like Furlong’s per fortnight, tons of TNT, Dog-years, micro-fortnights and royal-albert-halls.
My commute used to be 58 centi-MPH-Minutes. 🙂
🙂
Thanks a bunch!
Do you know how much it hurts when you laugh so hard that Diet Pepsi comes out of one’s nose?
VikingExplorer June 7, 2015 at 11:55 am Edit
I did say one meter of ocean depth, that’s the “cubic metre” referred to in the rule of thumb.
Oh, so close. The only part you are missing is the fact that sea water weighs about 1.03 tonnes. That takes your number to 7.8. Certainly, to the nearest degree we have no disagreement.
You’ve taken the long way around, however. You don’t need to involve the whole planet. The shorter way is
1 watt-year * 31536000 seconds/year = 31.5 megajoules
4 megajoules/°C/tonne specific heat capacity of sea water.
1 cubic metre seawater = 1.03 tonnes
SO … temperature rise is 31.5 / 4 * 1.03 = 8.1 °C
The two seawater variables (density, specific heat capacity) are available here. Note that they both change with temperature.
All the best,
w.
Willis, you’re right to correct for sea water. However, the specific heat you use isn’t very accurate.
T = E/M/Cp = 1.61 x 10^22 J / 510.1 x 10 ^ 12 m^3 / 1035 kg/m^3 / 3985 J/kg/K = 7.65 C
Willis, I realize that you are not discussing or calculating instrument error, but I thought it might be interesting. Here is my back-of-napkin error analysis:
I calculate the volume of water represented by an Argo float as 221,777 cubic km = 221,777 x 10^9 m^3. The mass of that water = 221,777 x 10^9 m^3 * 1000 kg/m^3.
I’ll calculate the W/m^3 error for the official instrument error of .005 C, and the WUWT mentioned measurement error of +/- .06 C:
E-joule-error-wuwt = 221,777 x 10^12 kg * 4185 J/kg/K * .06 K = 5.56882047 x 10^19 Joules
E-joule-error-official = 221,777 x 10^12 kg * 4185 J/kg/K * .005 K = 4.640683725 x 10^18 Joules ref
E-joule-baseline = 221,777 x 10^12 kg * 4185 J/kg/K * 273 K = 2.53381331385 x 10^23 Joules
E-%-error-wuwt = E-joule-wuwt / E-joule-baseline = .022 %
E-%-error-official = E-joule-official / E-joule-baseline = .0018 %
These Energy uncertainties would be equivalent to the following Earth Power uncertainties for 1 year:
P-error-wuwt = 5.56882047 x 10^19 Joules/year / 31,536,000 sec/year / 510.1 x 10^12 m^2 = .003 W/m^2
P-error-official = 4.640683725 x 10^18 Joules/year / 31,536,000 sec/year / 510.1 x 10^12 m^2 = .000288 W/m^2
(please help correct any arithmetic errors.)
A small detail. Argo buoys don’t go below 2,000 meter. Average depth of the ocean = 4300 meter, so 53% of the ocean is never sampled at all.
Actually it is worse since continental shelf areas, deep basins surrounded by shallows (like the Sea of Okhotsk), upwelling areas, area near large rivermouths and areas under sea-ice are also never or alkmost never sampled.
Altogether Argo never samples something like 60% of the entire ocean volume.
tty, Good point about under sampling. However, the average ocean depth is actually 3,682.2 meters (ref). So, only 45% is never sampled.
Even worse, we’re sampling none of the lithosphere. The atmosphere is only .07% of the ocean/air system and only .01% of the air/land/sea thermodynamic system.
Viking, that is an interesting average and is no where near the median. What is the mode?
Pamela,
I’m only reporting the figure from the reference. Did you read it?
Willis , In case you have an interest in generally powerful languages for expressing applied mathematics , while I understand R has lots of useful statistical and matrix routines , APLs are more more general and succinct . You might be interested in checking out http://www.dyalog.com , the leader among traditional APLs , http://jsoftware.com/ , Ken Iverson’s own final very mathy J evolute , and http://kx.com/ , more stripped down to the essentials K , which is the “template” for my own work .
In these languages a quite competitive planetary model could be written as or more succinctly than the notation in any physics text .
Thanks, Bob. R has some advantages. First, it’s free. Second. It’s free. Third, it’s totally cross-platform (Mac/Unix/Linux/PC).
The two languages (R and APL) actually are quite similar in some ways. In both languages the fundamental unit of data is not a single cell, but instead it is a vector (a list of numbers like say 1, 3, 5, 9). All operations act on each element of the vector. So if we have the vector
V = 1, 3, 5, 9
and we want to add two to each of those, we just say
V + 2
and the answer is
3, 5, 7, 11
So that structure, shared by both languages, is essential. However, a couple of things set R apart for me.
One is that I can highlight a line of code, ten lines of code, part of a line of code, or even a single word, hit Command-Enter, and it runs just that amount of code. This makes debugging very easy, because I can easily examine and run any size chunk of code.
The next is the wide availability of packages to do special tasks. I have packages for matrix operations, for mapping, for graphic display, for astronomical calculations, the list is endless. And like R itself, the packages are all free.
The next is RStudio, far and away the best user interface I’ve ever seen. If you are using R without RStudio, you’ve missed the experience … and RStudio is free as well.
Anyhow, I’m not trying to convince you so much as I’m trying to encourage any lurkers out there to learn the language. I learned R myself maybe five years ago, when I was 63 or so … and I’m sure many here can do the same.
Thanks,
w.
Yes, I checked out the first APL link given, and found it extremely expensive. I’ve looked at R before in response to CA comments, and found it well done.
Another strong contender is F#. The units of measure functionality is quite impressive. However, for performance reasons, I’d probably stick with C++.
Like you, Viking, I like C for the speed … so I was happy to see the package Rccp. It lets you write C code directly inline, say in a function like this:
double all_cpp(Rcpp::NumericMatrix& mat){ int nrow = mat.nrow(); int numcomps = nrow*(nrow-1)/2; double running_sum = 0; for( int i = 0; i < nrow; i++ ){ for( int j = i+1; j < nrow; j++){ running_sum += haversine_cpp(mat(i,0), mat(i,1), mat(j,0), mat(j,1)); } } return running_sum / numcomps; }That gives me a simple way to get extra speed when I need it. Having said that, as long as I don’t do something foolish like iteration loops (for n = 1 to 35000 etc) R has been fast enough for my needs.
Regards,
w.
I have been commenting on these problems with ARGO for years. All of the data I have been referred to (www seabird com) AND quoted to as the accuracy, even on the ARGO web site ( www argo ucsd edu ) are GROSSLY misleading, and I would say on purpose. They only provide the accuracy of the electronics and do not provide the change in accuracy as affected by ambient temperature or operating voltage. And therefore all of the data that everyone is taking and using concerning ocean temperature is very suspect. At the minimum it is at least an order of magnitude LESS accurate than the oceanographers claim. Yes, the buoys they are using are laboratory grade equipment with a professed accuracy of 0.001%, however that is for the electronics ONLY and claiming that as the accuracy from the actual source (ocean) to the resultant display – That is not how it works. You also need to take into account the accuracy of the probe – a very expensive one is only 0.005% accurate and that – Plus the electronics accuracy, would be the REAL accuracy of the temperature loop.
Worse than that – and that is my concern, is that they also fail to recognize and take into account the change in accuracy caused by the change in temperature of the electronics. A laboratory grade instrument is, typically, only accurate in the neighborhood of 20 0ºC ( 72 0ºF) plus or minus a few degrees. Outside those bounds, the accuracy suffers. Usually, quality equipment will provide a graph or data on that error. Has this error been included in the readings reported by the surface station equipment? Most laboratory grad equipment begins losing more than twiceit rated accuracy above or below ten degrees from the calibrated temperature.
Worse yet, as you get near the bounds of electrical operation, -20 /+ 50 0ºC, the numbers could be nothing more than garbage. I recall seeing a report on a surface station temperature report from Alaska, where the instrument quit all together when it got to 40 or 50 below 0ºF. I just cannot believe that the numbers before then were valid. How many of these bogus numbers (temperatures) are used in the Global Warming Scam?
You then need to consider the batteries, and the fact that they have reduced voltage at low temperatures and these low temperatures radically affect the operation of the equipment (that is why your car will not start in very cold weather.) Again another specification provided on a REAL data sheet providing REAL accuracy.
Judging by the red areas on the ARGO map, it seems that the areas where the floats measure the least are the areas that are most variable, near shore, shallow seas, high latitudes.
Any chance tis tosses in a bias?
Also, are the spatial distributions constant over the course of a year, or do the individual months look any different?
Willis,
Do we know what the Argo’s use for thermometers? I haven’t found that yet. But here is the source of the .005C number: https://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/6002/60020253.pdf
That would be Oka and Ando 2003.
Now this comment is interesting and hints at what I suspect. An RTD thermometer.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/31/krige-the-argo-probe-data-mr-spock/#comment-849195
Using a good platinum RTD, that kind of accuracy is probably possible, but doesn’t the heat from the probe have effects on the water temp of that order?
====
Still no data on the design – I’ll keep looking.
“doesn’t the heat from the probe have effects on the water temp of that order?”
Depends, I think rtd’s can be very small (flea or smaller ), and have very small currents, to a drop of water you might want to be careful, a gallon of water not so much.
The manufacturer:
http://www.seabird.com/sbe41-argo-ctd
Stability and calibration issues:
http://www.seabird.com/technical_references/LongtermTSstabilityAGUDec08Handout2Pages.pdf
From that link:
Features of the SBE 41/41CP Design
The SBE 41/41CP uses the proven MicroCAT Temperature, Conductivity, and Pressure sensors. The CTD is shipped fully calibrated, and has demonstrated excellent long-term stability, eliminating the need for post-deployment tampering of the calibration to force agreement with the local TS.
We know the accuracy of the RTD is good. Now how about the instrument as used?
Argo measures at a 1 Hz rate when it does its rise. No information is given on the time constant (TC) of the temp sensor which will affect the reading. i.e. if you step change the temperature how long will it be to get to 63% (one e fold) of the final? So the sensor could be accurate but if the dwell time is not long enough the readings will not be.
Measurement is hard. Real accuracy is harder. The fact that the instrument is accurate is only a start. Is the measurement as taken accurate? Different question. To what accuracy is the TC known?
While I realize this was good enough for the government, usually designs are appropriate for the application. Small thermal sensors (there are a couple different types ) can have a fast tc, plus water is a good sink.
But there is no way to estimate the error from TC unless you know it. I have seen small RTDs that have TCs in water of 1 to 5 seconds. 5 TCs gets you to within 1% of the change. i.e. from 10C to 11C you will see 10.99 in 5 TCs. Roughly. 7 TCs will get you to within 1 part in 1,000 of the change. Roughly. So to get into the accuracy range of the instrument for a 1 C change requires from 5 to 35 seconds dwell.
Water is a good sink. Yes. But is there flow or a film? Hydrophobic or hydrophilic? And of course this is salt water. So it is doubtful the RTD is in direct contact with it. There are complications.
M Simon
The link above in this page claims there is a “pump” and siphon (vertical loop) that processes water through a loop to the T/C, but stops while the float is at the surface to prevent contamination. But, how good is the float and how clean are its surfaces? There is supposedly a chemical released to kill biologics around the TC, but … any and every mechanical thing WILL fail if left to its own devices in the water for days/weeks/months.
micro6500 June 7, 2015 at 6:09 pm
We know the accuracy of the RTD is good. Now how about the instrument as used?
Menicholas June 7, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Let me repeat my simple thought experiment from above.
You tell me that won’t work … your theory is that because I’m not taking all of the measurements all at the same time in the same place, repeated measurements won’t improve the accuracy of my estimate of the average pool temperature. As you say, these “measurements taken at different times and places” can’t improve your estimate.
Me, I say the opposite. I say that the more temperature measurements we take in separate places in the pool, the better our estimate of the average gets. And in some real sense, we can’t take two measurements at exactly the same time. So we commonly use measurements taken over some appropriate time frame.
This of course is taken up in the calculations by specifying that the measurements are hourly or daily or monthly averages.
Here’s the question. The pool I described is in its own way quite heterogeneous. If I asked you “Menicholas, I want your best estimate of the temperature of the pool over the next 24 hours.”
I know of no way to do that than to place as many thermometers as possible in as disparate a group of places and depths in the poos as possible. Then I’d take as many measurements over the day as I could reasonably take.
And the more measurements I get, in both time and space, the better my estimate becomes.
So I’m afraid that you can indeed take measurements at different times and places and get a very precise average … not only that, but more different times and places you take them, the more precise your estimate gets.
The results of recording the temperatures in the pool throughout the day are very disparate measurements, some in warm areas, some in cool areas, some in areas with diurnal cycling, some areas with little change. They are taken in different locations and at different times.
And despite that, yes indeed, the same statistical methods apply to them. In fact there is no way to measure say the daily average temperature of the pool without taking measurements at different times and places.
My best to you,
w.
Willis,
For your position to work you have to prove (as best you can) that temperatures were stationary during the measurement. and that there were no (as small as possible) flows. The wind wasn’t causing cooling etc. When you take multiple measurements over time of an object that is changing there sqrt may not be applicable. the improvement may not be (almost certainly isn’t) ^.5 – it could be ^.7 or maybe ^.98 .
The sqrt works for the length of an iron bar in a temp controlled environment handled as little as possible. You are measuring the “same thing”.
So what proof do you have that you are measuring the same thing? The point? The sqrt is the most optimistic estimate of the improvement. Now if yo go with that. No problem.
You argue that for the situation you describe multiple measurements will improve the accuracy. OK. By how much?
Precision, not accuracy.
micro6500 June 7, 2015 at 6:56 pm ,
My error. Heh.
Willis is right. The folks arguing that such temperature readings are invalid are really saying that ALL temperature readings are invalid. This is akin to saying I don’t believe in any scientific analysis because all temperature readings are invalid. Is a temperature reading making an assertion about every atom? No, but who ever said it was? Would more buoys be better? Of course. Do buoys move? Yes, so we just need to keep adding new ones up stream.
People should consider the implications of the positions they are taking. I wish there this was like the twilight zone so that the people who make these kind of arguments would get this response when they check the weather: Sorry, we could tell you an estimate for today’s high temperature, but based on your own standards, it would be invalid for so many parcels of air in your general vicinity, that we can’t take the risk of being wrong.
In short, they need to change from:
bool valid, correct;
to
float valid, correct;
oops, italics was supposed to end after ” readings are invalid”
What does Briggs have to say about averaging the floats in a grid, then averaging the grids? Doesn’t he tell us this is WRONG.
The Central Limit Theorem tells us to randomly sample the Argo floats. The result will very likely be normally distributed, from which a whole slew of statistical information can be derived.
An average of average hides the variance. Which hides the error.
Willis writes
This cant be the whole story. I recall a beautiful description I think it might have been from John Daly describing error calculations and he pointed out that if you have a map and ruler, it doesn’t matter how many times you measure the distance from London to Paris, you’ll never get the answer to within a ballpark estimate.
TimTheToolMan June 7, 2015 at 8:49 pm
Thanks, Tim, good to hear from you. Unfortunately, you are conflating accuracy and precision. Accuracy is how well your estimates match reality.
Precision, on the other hand, is repeatability. It is how well your estimates match each other. It has nothing to do with accuracy. Averaging in general only increases precision.
So John Daly is correct about the accuracy not increasing … but we shouldn’t expect it to. Instead, repeatability increases.
Consider. If I measure London to Paris with a ruler, and you do the same, our answers will likely be quite different. Not repeatable, poor precision.
But if I average 100 different people’s answers, and you average 100 different people’s answers, the averages are likely to be much closer to each other. This means more repeatability of the estimated value, which is to say, increased precision. It still says nothing about the accuracy of the measurements, for all we know the ruler is wrong. But repeating measurements does increase the precision, even if the ruler is wrong.
I hope this assists you with the distinction. If not, just ask again.
w.
Willis writes “you are conflating accuracy and precision. Accuracy is how well your estimates match reality.”
But in this context the precision of water temperature that is being measured and supposedly increased with increased numbers of measurements says nothing about the accuracy of the measurement which is an entirely different error and not properly accounted for.
So the analogy of 100 people all averaging say 13.42 cm from Paris to London doesn’t make the distance from Paris to London 13.42 x “the map scale” any more accurate than 100 measurements of an Argo buoy representing the average temperature of its 375k cubic kms of ocean.
Thanks, Tim. You are correct that increasing the precision doesn’t increase the accuracy. However, in the case of the ocean heat content, we don’t really care about the accuracy. The issue is not whether the ocean heat content is 2.147E+25 joules or 2.293E+25 joules.
All we care about is whether the heat content is increasing or decreasing, and by how much. And for that, the accuracy error is immaterial. Your scale doesn’t have to be accurate to tell you if you are gaining or losing weight … it just has to be precise.
w.
Willis writes “And for that, the accuracy error is immaterial. Your scale doesn’t have to be accurate to tell you if you are gaining or losing weight … it just has to be precise.”
But its not precise. The error is not one of measurement precision, its one of what the measurement is actually of. It makes no difference how precise the thermometer is if the measurement is not representative of the object. In this case 1 measurement in 375,000 cubic kms of ocean isn’t representative of that volume of ocean (IMO).
TimTheToolMan June 9, 2015 at 2:30 am
I agree, which is why I described it as a “sampling error” and I said several times that the system is undersampled. All I’ve done above is to show that the uncertainty is about twenty times what they have claimed, and that as a result we cannot tell if the ocean heat content is increasing as claimed.
However, that doesn’t make the measurements useless. As usual, that just means that you need to aggregate them over either a larger time or a larger space. As an example, here’s the Argo data on the ocean heat maximum … it shows a rectangular patch of ocean north of the equator north of Australia:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/argo-surface-temperatures-n-hemisphere-160-180e-0-45n.jpg
This shows the annual cycle of temperatures, with two identical cycles shown for clarity. As you can see, there’s a lot to be learned from the Argo data … just not what they claim.
w.
Willis writes “All I’ve done above is to show that the uncertainty is about twenty times what they have claimed, and that as a result we cannot tell if the ocean heat content is increasing as claimed.”
From the point of view of overall position on this post, I agree with you Willis. I often do.
So it occurred to me to look to see whether TOBS is an issue.
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/docs/ArgoDMpaper_reprint.pdf
“The original profiling float sinks after launch to a prescribed pressure level, typically 1000 dbar. After a preprogrammed time (typically 10 days) at this pressure, the float returns to the surface”
Typically 10 days means potentially variable. And there is no detail as to the specifics of what is currently used. Well not in that document anyway…
The example to use a map to measure the distance from London to Paris is a good example for illustration of systematic errors.
The map is a model. Imagine if the one who made this map missed on the scale by 50 %.
Then all others who tries to use the map, the model, to estimate the distance from London to Paris will make an error of 50%. This error will be in addition to all other systematic and random errors which may have been made when making the map. And then you will have the systematic error of the ruler.
This should also illustrate how stupid it is to try to estimate a value from a model.
If the model is verified, tested and calibrated on multiple points, it may however be used for estimation within its tested, verified and calibrated range. Based on the testing you may also assign an uncertainty value to you model.
If you simply picked people at random from the earth and measured their height, wouldn’t this give you the average height? And wouldn’t this be normally distributed with the standard error equal to the standard deviation? So how come we don’t need to grid people? They certainly aren’t evenly distributed around the globe and static in location.
ok, just having a bit of fun. but in theory, if we can calculate the average height of people why can;t we calculate the average temperature of argo? and since argo is essentially randomly distributed from one sample to the next, wouldn’t this eliminate the need to grid if all we wanted was to see the trend and the error?
yes, gridding will be needed to average the earth, but it is not needed to average argo.
If you plot the height of everyone on Earth, you will get a bell curve distribution.
If you plot the temperature of each cubic kilometer of water on the earth, what will be the shape of the resulting graph?
And people do not constantly shrink and grow by a large percentage of the height they have any given time.
ferdperple writes
Because heights are (thought to be) evenly distributed around the world. Ocean temperatures aren’t though, so if you sample more in one latitude in one year and less in the next then that will fairly obviously bias the result.
M Simon June 7, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Not in the slightest. Consider my example of the pool. Yes, the temperature of the pool is changing. This means that the estimate of the average will automatically have a larger error, because the temperatures will have a greater standard deviation.
But given that we are starting from a worse point, if we increase the number of measurements, the error generally decreases as sqrt(N)/N, subject to the restrictions I listed earlier.
Again I have to disagree. The difference is taken up in the larger error estimate to start with. But given that, the reduction of error follows the usual rules. If you take one hundred times the measurements, you get an extra decimal in the error.
The part about the reduction of error has nothing to do with the timing of the measurements. It’s straight math that only has to do with averaging and the effect it has on the errors.
The error of the sum of N objects each with an error of EN is given by:
sqrt(E12 + E12 + E12 + …)
That is to say, the error is the square root of the sum of the squares of the individual errors.
Note that this is true without regard to the physical situation. It is the mathematical nature of errors. They add “in quadrature”, that is to say as the square root of the sum of their squares.
Now, if we divide that sum of N values by the number of values N, we get the average of the data. And the error of that average is simply the error divided by N.
sqrt(E12 + E12 + E12 + …) / N
There is a way to simplify this IF the errors are all the same. At that point the sum of N errors is just N times the value of the error. So the formula above simplifies to
sqrt(N * E2)
This means the error of the average is that error value over N, or
sqrt(N * E2) / N
This simplifies to
sqrt(N) * sqrt(E2) / N
or sqrt(N)/N * E.
That is to say, as you average more and more data, the error scales by sqrt(N)/N.
Now, as you point out, that’s the best case. IF the errors are not equal, then IF the distribution of the errors is symmetrical, the error is increased to sqrt(E2 + SD2), where SD is the standard deviation of the errors. So the error is larger.
But that larger error still scales the same way, this time as
sqrt(N)/N * sqrt(E2 + SD2)
In summary, the issues that you raise of non-stationarity and heterogeneity and the like are real issues … but they are allowed for in the formula because of the variations in both the standard deviation of the data, and the standard deviation of the errors.
Bottom line is, more measurements give you more precision, but not more accuracy, pretty much regardless of what you are measuring.
w.
I measure the length of 1,000 horses, 1,000 camels and 1,000 dogs. I measure then individually over a year. about 3 a day each. Can I really use sqrt n (3,000 in this case) to reduce the error bar? After all I’m measuring lengths.
Well OK. lets look at a problem I’m actually working on. I’m measuring the AC line frequency. If I go cycle by cycle my measurement is good to about 1 ppm (I’m clocking my period counter 59 million times a second). But because of line noise the cycle to cycle variation is on the order of 50 to 100 ppm. And that is in fact not the truth. If the grid is functioning tolerably well it can’t change that fast. And I have no way to take the noise out. I can reduce that considerably by averaging 6 cycles (0.1 second in North America). But now because the cycles are continuously varying at a varying rate I don’t really know much about the individual cycles. The old where or when problem you get in quantum mechanics Statistics can’t help much because I want to know the length of every cycle. But there is no way I can find that out. The noise in the system prevents it. Measuring 1,000 cycles does not improve my knowledge of cycle 379. It can place a limit on it. To some extent. But measuring 10,000 cycles will still not improve what I know about cycle 379 by very much. Now if I took 1,000 measurement of cycle 379 at different places where the noise was different I could probably improve my estimate on the order of sqrt 1,000. But baring that my knowledge of 10,000 other cycles does not help with cycle 379.
And that is the problem you have with these buoys. They can bound the estimates. But the 10,000 buoys more or less evenly but randomly distributed can’t reduce the error much of buoy 379. And that is as much true of the ensemble as it is of #379.
Or take this case:. you have buoys inside a current and outside a current. (the Gulf Stream say) can you use the one sets of buoys to reduce the error of the other set? Probably not. They aren’t even close to measuring the same thing. To reduce the effect of the measurement noise you have to be measuring the same thing.
And btw. If you’ve read the whole thread I’m not the only one to make this point.
The point of sqrt n is to reduce the measurement noise. Can you use an Antarctic thermometer to reduce the measurement noise of a Sahara thermometer? Suppose their biases are different. Then what? Suppose their time constants are different. Then what? Suppose they are both moving. Then what? Suppose their clocks are not well synchronized – then what?
And on top of that temperature is one of the hardest things to measure accurately. That is why calorimetry (the topic at hand) is so difficult.
If the measurements given by these buoys were even somewhat honest they would be advertising the time constants (TC) of the measuring apparatus. I’ve looked around. (not extensively) I have yet to see a mention of that problem and how it affects accuracy or the correlation between different thermometers. All they tell you is that the static accuracy is quite good over time. What is the TC of the thermometers? How well do they hold that over time? If you have seen something on that leave a link. If there is even a discussion of that – leave a link.
Another interesting topic of discussion is how noise affects the Bit Error Rate (BER) of a QUAM modulated signal. You can’t average (sqrt n) the noise to tell how it affected any given bit. The Signal To Noise Ratio (SNR) tells you the average BER for a given bandwidth channel. But it will not tell you which bit(s) is corrupted. Other methods are required. And there is a trade off between BER/SNR and error correction bits that tells you what the information capacity of a given channel is. There are limits that no amout of error correction can overcome.
I’d like to see something on the information capacity of ARGO. Haven’t seen any mention of that either. All I have seen is “we can measure static temperature quite accurately” followed by “trust us”. As if. Something on the ADCs used would be good. In addition to the sensors. And the bandwidth of the analog circuitry. And the 1/f noise break point. And the noise value at the breakpoint. And the noise slope below the break point. And BTW how well is circuit noise from the microprocessors etc. kept out of the measuring circuits?
It gets complicated. Much more complicated than sqrt (n).
Crispin in Waterloo but really in Yogyakarta June 7, 2015 at 4:43 am
Thanks, Crispin. Consider my earlier example of a swimming pool. I want to get the average temperature of the water in the pool. I put in three thermometers in separate locations.
Are the thermometers measuring the pool water in different locations … or are they measuring three “different things”?
I say they’re measuring the pool water in different locations … but that doesn’t matter. Here’s an example of why not.
Suppose I want to know how much the average resident of San Francisco weighs. So I start weighing SF residents at random.
Do you agree that the more people I weigh, the more precise my estimate will be? Because that is what will happen. Remember that precise means repeatable and is different from accuracy.
Now, here’s the point. My estimate is getting more and more precise as I weigh more and more different people … but I’m not taking “measurements of the same thing” in your words. I’m taking the weights of totally different people … and despite that, my estimate of the actual average weight keeps improving.
I suppose you could argue that the people are all part of one “thing”, the “residents of San Francisco” … but if that is the case, then the different parts of the pool are also all part of one thing, the “water in the pool”.
The aspect of all of this that seems hard for people to grasp is that this error reduction is inherent in the mathematics of averaging any kind of values that have errors. It doesn’t matter what the values are that have the errors. It doesn’t matter the size or details of the grouping, whether the measurements are of all people or just women or distances to the stars or whatever. If there are values with errors and you average them, we know what happens. The errors add in quadrature, and the total error divided by N, the number of data points, is the error of the average. It is pure math, it has nothing to do with what where the numbers come from or what they may be referring to.
A final example. I want to know the average weight of me, my cow, my chair, and my car. I know the weights of each of them, and I know the error of the various scales used to weigh them.
From that data I can calculate the average weight, as well as the error estimate for that average. That error will be
sqrt(Eme2+Ecow2+Echair2+Ecar2) / 4
where E is the error of the relevant estimate.
Now, this calculation of the error estimate of the average weight has nothing to do with what is being measured. It doesn’t matter that a cow, a chair, a car and I are most definitely “different things”. It doesn’t matter that two are alive and two are not. It doesn’t matter if the numbers represent weights or ages.
People claim things like this only works when we’re making repeated measurements of the same object. Not true. It works with an average of cows, chairs and cars. The reduction in error is due to the math, and not to the items being measured. And in general, the error of the average will be SMALLER than the individual errors. Counterintuitive, perhaps, but true.
Finally, let me say again that accuracy is not increased by averaging, whether the same thing is being measured or not. Precision is increased, which is the same as saying that repeatability is increased.
Best regards,
w.
Willis writes ” I’m taking the weights of totally different people … and despite that, my estimate of the actual average weight keeps improving.”
This is a useful argument to demonstrate the point. For arguments sake, lets say a single measurement can reasonably accurately represent 1 cubic km of ocean. So by analogy you can weigh about one person every ten days in my home city. You get to weigh about 36 random people per year in my city.
Irrespective of what the error is, how useful do you think that degree of measurement is when determining whether the population is gaining or losing weight?
Tim, you raise a good point. Fortunately, that’s what statistics are for. Instead of saying “how useful do you think it is”, we can measure exactly how useful it is.
You can calculate the expected error in the estimated average (mean) as you go. It’s called the “standard error of the mean” or SEM, which is simply the standard deviation of the data divided by the square root of the number of data points. So if I weigh 36 people, and the standard deviation of their weights is 12 pounds, the SEM is ± 2 pounds.
That means that if the populace gained say 10 pounds each my study has enough resolving power to detect it, but if they all gained a single pound, 36 measurements is not enough to reveal that one-pound gain.
Unfortunately, the inexorable math says that if I want to make my estimate more precise by one decimal point, I need to measure a hundred times as many weights. This is because as noted above, error scales by sqrt(N)/N, and for N=100, that’s a tenth of the error. So to have the same resolving power for 1 pound as I have for 10 pounds, I’d need to take 3600 measurements.
These kinds of calculations are important for things like polls. How many people do you need to ask a question in order to determine the true underlying yes/no fraction to within say ±10%? And exactly the same math applies.
w.
Willis writes “That means that if the populace gained say 10 pounds each my study has enough resolving power to detect it, but if they all gained a single pound, 36 measurements is not enough to reveal that one-pound gain.”
I think you’re forgetting that you’re not taking 36 measurements at once, they’re spread over the year. And over the year people can change their weights significantly. So for example how would you know whether people were generally losing weight over summer and gaining it over winter? You just dont have the resolution or sampling frequency for any of that. Eventually after a very long time you might get enough data to see low frequency trends but you’re simply not going to see anything even vaguely high frequency.
TimTheToolMan June 9, 2015 at 2:37 am
Thanks, Tim. It doesn’t matter whether the measurements are taken over an hour, a day, a month, or a year. If people gain ten pounds over the year, that will be reflected as an increase in the standard deviation of the results. This will in turn increase the standard error of the mean, and appropriately reduce the resolving power of the study. It’s all taken care of by the math. If we take the measurements over a year, all that happens is that we call it a “yearly average”
My point is simple. All we are talking about is the averaging of numbers with associated uncertainties. There are clear mathematical rules for taking that average. The rules don’t care whether the data is people’s weights or tomato growth rates or ocean temperatures. The rules don’t care if the measurements were taken in one instant or one hour. Given that those are the measurements and uncertainties, we can say what the uncertainty of the average is.
w.
Willis writes “all that happens is that we call it a “yearly average””
Right. So after 10 years we have 10 data points. That’s not how it works for Argo, though is it. There are many data points shown but Argo simply doesn’t have the power to resolve that finely.
TimTheToolMan June 10, 2015 at 6:17 am
Say what? Argo gives us thousands of data points per year. From this we construct yearly averages, with an associated uncertainty.
And yes, after ten years, we have ten years worth of annual averages … what, you were expecting twenty annual averages in ten years?
And when you say “Argo simply doesn’t have the power to resolve that finely”, that statement is meaningless for a couple of reasons. First, you haven’t specified how finely “that finely” might be. Second, you haven’t specified over what time and space you’re doing the averaging. Annual? Monthly? Global? Regional? 700 metres depth, or 2000 metres? Both of those are critical to knowing how much uncertainty there is in the answer.
I’ve given above my estimate of how finely the Argo data can resolve the temperature of the top 700 metres of the ocean on a global annual basis. I say that the best case scenario is that we might be able to resolve it with an uncertainty of a tenth of a degree with those constraints (global, annual, 0-700m). However, that comes with some caveats regarding the fact that the Argo buoys don’t sample shallow waters and the like.
My point is, statistics is what allows us to use averages of scattered, incomplete, fluctuating datasets. It does so by giving us an estimate of the uncertainty associated with the average. It means that we don’t just throw up our hands and say something like “Argo simply doesn’t have the power to resolve that finely”. Instead, we can see exactly how finely Argo can resolve, given a set of specific time and volume constraints.
Argo doesn’t have any inherent “resolving power” in a general sense. By that I mean that the uncertainty is a function of both time and volume measured.
The general direction of things is pretty obvious. The more measurements we take, the better our estimate of the average is likely to be. And the more homogeneous the volume of water being measured, the better our estimate of the average s likely to be.
What statistics does is let us attach numbers to those statements. It lets us know exactly how much better our estimates will be. So instead of simply saying that the average will be better with more measurements, we can say that the error scales with one over the square root of the number of measurements. So if we want half of the uncertainty, we need four times the measurements. And if we want another decimal place on the answer, that’s a tenth of the uncertainty, so we need a hundred times the measurements.
My best to you,
w.
Willis writes ” Both of those are critical to knowing how much uncertainty there is in the answer.”
Argo produces one figure that is overwhelmingly the most important for AGW and that is the Ocean Heat Content.
Obviously Argo produces mountains of data but the point is that say 3 set of readings per month per buoy dont really tell us anything about the ocean because the variation (and error) due to the sparseness of the readings makes monthly “data” worthless. Misleading even.
A yearly average is just that. An average over the whole year and you cant then subdivide it into months meaningfully – particularly if you’re doing analysis on it such as rates of change.
Willis I appreciate your expansive response. You have not wandered as far as others, but there are still a couple of course corrections necessary.
I will respond in two sections. First the good people of San Francisco. Weigh them and look at the numbers. All the weights end in zero, and you realise they are being weighed to the nearest ten pounds. Averaging all the weights will produce a number that is correct to the nearest ten pounds. If the average answer is 155.613 pounds, the rider is that it is a value plus or minus 5 pounds, a 10 pound range. You can weigh a million residents and calculate a 99.99% confident number for the centre of the 10 pound range, but you cannot reduce the range because the original weights were read to the nearest ten pounds. The trick to dealing with this is to recall that 155.613 is no one’s weight, it is just a number. It was generated with a scale that read to the nearest ten pounds. The only valid report you can make is that the average weight of residents is 160 pounds. Full stop. There is no guarantee whatsoever that if you weighed everyone to the nearest pound the result will be 155.613 or 156 if you report it properly.
The second issue is with the mixing of the non-overlapping terms ‘precision’ and ‘accuracy’. There are three numbers that rate a scale: repeatability, accuracy and precision. A scale might report the mass 155.613 and next time 155.612 and then 155.611. Very precise and repeatable within 0.001. But the value may be consistently wrong by 2.115 pounds. It is a precise but inaccurate instrument with good repeatability.
The weight of people in San Francisco cannot be known more precisely than to the nearest ten pounds if the scale has a precision of 10 pounds. Whether the scale is accurate is a completely different matter.
Let’s weigh someone 100 times. Their actual weight is 155 pounds. The scale says they weigh 150 pounds 50 times and 160 pounds 50 times. The average of all the readings of the same person is 155 pounds and a confidence can be calculated for this value. Is the precision of the number is still 10 pounds? Yes.
How accurate is the answer? We don’t know until we calibrate the scale against a standard weight. The accuracy of the answer is unrelated to the number of readings. It they are all off by 2.115 pounds then they remain off.
If the person weighed 152 pounds and we got 150 as the final average, and the precision is still 10 pounds and the accuracy is still unknown without calibration.
The error people make is to say that many readings of the same thing, like a person’s mass, will increase the precision of the answer. No, it increases the precision of the reported value of the centre of the ten pound range. Multiple readings have no effect of the accuracy of any of them nor the average of the calibration was wrong to start with. A scale can be like some people: disconnected from reality and consistently wrong.
So let us consider the instrument operating at its design limits. In practise a scale or thermometer has a precision that is ‘worth reporting’. If the inherent variability of the equipment is such that it simply cannot report a weight repeatedly better than 10 grams, then the display will suppress all smaller values. Entering a correct calibration constant and linearisation formula can maintain that 10 gram precision over the full scale range. No problem. Then is will be accurate to within 10 g and report the mass to a precision of 10 g.
Now weigh 1000 people, once each with that scale. Calculate their average weight. The number might be 70.1245 kg. The scale, having been recently calibrated and not knocked around will be accurate to 10 g. The error will be as you calculated it above. How many digits can we report truthfully? It is 70.12. The 0.045 is an artefact of the calculation and has no value to us because we do not have 1000 opinions of the weight of one person.
Next weigh 1000 people on 100 scales 10 times each. Ten scales were just calibrated. Ten were calibrated a year ago. The next ten were calibrated two years ago and so on. The accuracy of the final result will depend a lot on the quality of the instruments because some scales drift a lot and some drift less. Some scales are ‘assizable’ and some are not because they cannot maintain their accuracy within acceptable limits for a year. They are marked ‘not legal for trade’ for that reason.
Now measure the temperature of the ocean using 3600 different instruments in 3600 different places with RTD’s that have a readout value of 0.01 degrees, a repeatability error of 0.01 and a one year accuracy of 0.06 degrees C. Can you support the claim that the temperature of the ocean is known to a precision of 0.005 and an accuracy of better than 0.005 degrees?
Neither can I. The precision is 0.01 and the the readings after one year are within 0.06 C, assuming it was correctly calibrated at the beginning of the year. Any calculated ‘trend’ within the error bars is no trend at all because we can have greater confidence of No Trend than we can have in Trend. The rest, as they say, is noise.
Willis EschenbachJune 7, 2015 at 7:43 am
Well Hadley only provide it as NetCDF for now and do not provide a timeseries graph, just a “wow, it hotter now” map.
This is not much use to normal mortals, especially in the context of Kerl et al’s latest games on global time series.
I want to extract a lat-weighted global TS for initial comparison.
the weighted.mean fn only seems able to produce a single scalar result, so I can’t copy what you did for thermocline depth. I find working in R a momumental PITA, so maybe the best thing is to dump it out as ascii and process it in programming language that gives direct control.
Even without the latitude weighting it is clear that there a some serious issues with NMAT and using it to “correct” purpose built buoys is rather a perverse idea from a scientific point of view. Of course what Karl et al are doing is not motivated by science ….
OK, Mike, building on your code I’d go:
72 rows by 36 columns by 1572 monthly layers. First thing I’d do is put it into normal map format, which is wider than tall.
Next I’d grab the list of latitudes, and take the cosines.
Make the cosines into a 36 x 72 rectangular array:
Here’s where the beauty of R comes into play. We use the “apply” function to apply the weighted.mean function to every layer (month) of the nmat array:
That means apply “weighted.mean” to index 3 of nmat, with the weighted.mean variable “w” and “na.rm” set as shown.
The “3” in the apply function means apply the function to index 3 of (rows, columns, layers), that is to say apply it to each layer rather than each row (1) or column (2).
As to the time, we have to get the time units and the first couple of time values;
So we’re looking at monthly data, but the start date is 10,972.5 days after January 1, 1850, which turns out to be January 15, 1980. R handles time a couple of ways, most comprehensively as a “POSIXct” object. A POSIXct object keeps time internally in seconds, and it can calculate an offset from a starting time. So I use an offset of 10972.5 * 24 (hr/day) * 3600 (secs/hr) from the start, as follows
So if I were working with the data, I’d make it into a “time series” object starting in January 1880:
That makes it easy to do things like take annual averages, and plot the time series.
w.
Willis may I suggest a book on Statistical Process Control (SPC). And Information Theory (Channel Bandwidth/Information Limits). The precision of a group of widgets is not improved by measuring 10,000 of them vs 100 of them. The precision of the average can improve. But if the error bar for 100 widgets is 10% and the process is in control the error bar for 10,000 is still going to be 10%. Let us say for 100 you get a measurement average of 10.1 that would be +/- 10% so 10.1 +/-1 and for 10,000 you might be able to say that you have a measurement average of 10.11 +/- 1. You can’t reduce the error of the process by averaging. You just get a more accurate estimate of the average. But it does not improve your process.
People not familiar with SPC make these kinds of rookie errors all the time.
==================
And then there is this problem. Due to the Time Constant (TC) of the instrument a temperature rate of change of 2 degrees per minute is going to have a different error than a temperature rate of change of 1 degree per minute. If the instrument time constant is 1 second (unlikely) the error is small for that variation in rate of change. If the time constant is 30 seconds (likely) the error will be much different for the two rates of change.
The static accuracy (.005C) does not tell you a lot about measurement accuracy in a variable rate of change situation.
That seems to have been glossed over.
And it gets worse. If the time constants of the instruments varies significantly (not unlikey) then the errors of the various instruments is going to vary. significantly. Instruments rising 700 m in the Tropics in the summer are going to have larger error bars than those rising 700 m in the Arctic in the winter. Where is this discussed? All I’ve seen mentioned is static errors. Clever boys.
M Simon
Re widgets. From many readings you do not get a more accurate average, you get a more precise value for the centre of the range of error. The accuracy depends on the instrument and how well it was calibrated before use.
Thank you. But my point about Willis – and the whole climate gang’s misunderstanding of what taking more readings at different places does stands.
I should add
at different places and times does stands.
Thanks M Simon. I appreciate your well-considered contributions.
I find this article excellent in many ways, however I think it could be improved by following a recognized international standard for expression of uncertainty. There is a freely available and excellent guideline called:
Guideline to expression of uncertainty in measurement.
http://www.bipm.org/en/publications/guides/
Section 4.2.3 covers the uncertainty of the average.
You deviate from this standard in a few ways, most significantly:
1. By using the term error in place of the term uncertainty
2. By not making explicit the confidence level or coverage factor
Section 7 (Reporting uncertainty) contains a few guidelines on expressing and reporting uncertainty.
About the guide:
“This Guide establishes general rules for evaluating and expressing uncertainty in measurement that are intended to be applicable to a broad spectrum of measurements. …. The ClPM Recommendation is the only recommendation concerning the expression of uncertainty in measurement adopted by an intergovernmental organization.
..
The following seven organizations* supported the development of this Guide, which is published in their name:
BIPM: Bureau International des Poids et Measures
IEC: International Electrotechnical Commission
IFCC: International Federation of Clinical Chemistry **
ISO: International Organization for Standardization
IUPAC: International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry
IUPAP: International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
OlML: International Organization of Legal Metrology “
Also – you could respond more easily to many of the comments here by pointing to the standard and asking commenters to use a terminology in accordance with this standard. That is one of the great benefit of standards.