New video: Dr. Murry Salby – Control of Atmospheric CO2

salby-lectureHis new research applies observed changes of climate and atmospheric tracers to resolve the budget of atmospheric carbon dioxide. It reveals the mechanisms behind the evolution of CO2, including its increase during the 20th century. Thereby, the analysis determines the respective roles of human and natural sources of CO2, with an upper bound on the contribution from fossil fuel emission.

Watch the video from London, 17th March 2015

h/t to Andrew Montford and Philip Foster

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Scott Vickery
April 13, 2015 6:52 pm

How about we just set aside a place on earth that is completely self sustainable no matter warming or cooling( a Noah’s ark if you will) and just keep on keeping on business as usual. If it as bad as the alarmist say than fine the human race will survive. If it’s not then no harm no foul. This debate is a useless “Tit for Tat”. I personally could not give a f@ k any more. Whatever!!!!

Michael 2
Reply to  Scott Vickery
April 14, 2015 8:59 am

“How about we just set aside a place on earth that is completely self sustainable no matter warming or cooling”
It’s called Borneo.

Janice Moore
April 13, 2015 8:04 pm

In response to a few earnest pleas above for a transcript, I am posting my 8 pages of notes on Dr. Murry Salby’s 2015 London, United Kingdom, lecture.
For those who so easily toss aside Dr. Salby’s horrendous treatment (his research files have been STOLEN from him), harshly judge him as foolish to not publish anyway, and sneer at his publishing only his slides in a video format, I say: there are, even so, MANY examples of his reasoning and his calculations in those slides. I hope that all intelligent WUWT readers of integrity (with normal hearing/vision) will be inspired from my notetaking (quite simpleminded and not as complete as they should be, to be sure) below to watch or listen and read the slides and graphs in this fine presentation by one of the finest atmospheric scientists in the world.
*************************************************
Dr. Murry Salby, London, 2015 Lecture — Janice’s Notes
Youtube link to lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g9WGcW_Z5 8 {Note: space added between last two chars, the 5 and 8 to prevent video control window from appearing here}
3:00 – During 1990’s, fossil fuel emission increased linearly .08 GtC/year (IF retained in
atmosphere, this = .04 ppmv/year) {“ppmv”: parts per million by volume}
3:22 – After 2002, fossil fuel emission rate increased: .275 GtC/year, an increase of 300%
(Total at end of period nearly 2x greater); atmospheric CO2 increase, IF retained, would be
.14 ppmv/year.
3:45 – 1995 – 2002, atmospheric CO2 increased linearly 2.1 ppmv/year;
— After 2002, atmospheric CO2 increased at the same rate.
4:10 – “The growth of fossil fuel emission increased by a factor of 300%; the growth of CO2
didn’t blink. How could this be? Say it ain’t so.” lol
4:40 – Estimated CO2 Budget (Source: IPCC) {Anthropogenic CO2 emissions = 5 Gt/year;
Natural (150 Gt/year) greater than human by 2 orders of magnitude.}
5:12 — Re: Net Atmospheric CO2 – for human CO2 to dominate, natural would have
remain in nearly perfect balance, i.e., even a minor imbalance in natural CO2 would
either overwhelm the human CO2 emissions or act as a net sink of all the human CO2.
5:50 – CO2 reaching the atmosphere from earth is “conserved,” that is, it is neither multiplied
nor destroyed; CO2 is only rearranged by atmospheric circulation. Thus, to restate,
atmospheric CO2 growth rate = Net CO2 emission from earth.
7:20 – Net global CO2 emission (all sources and sinks, natural and human). Note: it is not
linear, i.e., does NOT resemble IN THE SLIGHTEST human CO2 emission rate.

— Human CO2 and Net CO2 Emission records are incoherent. That is, net global CO2
emission evolves INDEPENDENTLY OF HUMAN EMISSION.
9:12 – Since 1997, global temperature has varied little (constant, except for weak cooling).
9:35 – Natural CO2 emission has strong sensitivity to surface properties (of land and of
ocean) – Human CO2 is independent of surface properties.
10:05 – Correlation of .93 (net global CO2 emission and surface properties).
10:55 – Temperature (the main surface property driver) correlation: .80.
11:05 – Integrating thermally-induced CO2 emission backward, i.e., subtracting therm. CO2 for
each preceding year (year x-1) from current CO2 (year x), repeating this going back to
1980, gives an accurate estimate of net natural CO2 (since most net natural CO2 emission
is thermally induced).
12:20 – Before 1980, there are no observations of global temperature; must estimate from
surface thermometers (limited coverage of earth).
13:50 – Integrating thermally induced atmospheric CO2 backward revealed no human NO
human CO2 component; this means the human CO2 component is not zero, but it is so
small that it cannot be measured. Upper bound for human CO2 emission can be
determined:
15:10 — Using uncertainty range of pre-1980 thermally-induced atmospheric CO2,
integrate forward (from 19th century thermally-induced CO2).
15:30 – 19th c. human CO2 close to zero, i.e., the natural, largely thermally-induced CO2 is
dominant; as you integrate forward, the thermally-induced CO2 should start to
diverge from observed atmospheric CO2 (the discrepancy would reveal the human CO2
component)

18:12 – Upper bound of human CO2 in 2007, (r(A)) <= 33% (corresponding to the lower
Bound for thermally induced natural CO2 of 67%). {Taking 280 ppmv as generally
accepted min.). {See also Salby infra at 40:00}
19:10 – Conservation equation of CO2. dr/dt = E – A.
19:45 – Absorption Time (i.e., exponential rate of decay of CO2 using normalized absorption
rate, α)  which, yields (1/ α) Residence Time of CO2 (i.e., after introduced, how
long CO2 remains in the atmosphere).
21:20 – To find α requires {method #1 in this lecture}: r (Abundance of CO2 in gigatons of
carbon, per IPCC: 750 GtC) and A (absorption rate: per IPCC 150 Gt/year)  absorption
rate (α) is 5 years-1 yielding Residence Time: 5 years).
22:00 – Dr. Salby has “little confidence” in this result for “A is little more than a guesstimate …
highly variable … not observed.” (“r is well-determined)
22:18 – Better method {#2 in this lecture} of determining absorption rate α : cross
correlation of CO2 (itself, not emission) with temperature.
22:50 – Cross-correlation (CO2 – temperature) i.e., how large a change in CO2 results from a
change in temperature along with the relative timing.
23:15 — A change in temperature is followed 10 months later by a change in CO2; thus, like
emission, CO2 is strongly dependent on temperature, lagging behind it; “unambiguous
which is the horse and which is the cart.”

23:42 – Theoretical constraints – the Conservation Equation governs evolution of CO2, thus, it
also must govern CO2’s cross-correlation with temperature; the more CO2, the faster it
is absorbed (i.e., absorption, A, is a function of CO2 abundance, r).

24:17 – Approximating each by a first order Taylor equation reduces the Conservation Equation
to linear dependence on temperature and CO2 abundance (r).
24:45 – Thus, the change in thermally-induced emission is proportional to the change in
Temperature and the change in absorption of CO2 is proportional to the change in
abundance of CO2.
(gamma = the correlation between observed emission and temp.)
(alpha = “normalized absorption rate” value: TBD (to be determined – there are a number
of CO2 evolutions, each with a different absorption rate, alpha).
26:10 – Taking as a given the IPCC’s alpha of 5(to the minus 1) , result is cross-correlation of CO2 and temp.
of (see slide).
26:24 — {Third Way to Determine α – other 2 at: 1) 21:20 and 2) 22:18 — Experiment} – A
Tracer of CO2 in the Atmosphere (goes where CO2 goes). A small, uniquely identifiable
subset of CO2 = good tracer: C14 (only a trace contribution (<1%) to overall atmospheric,
C12 mostly, carbon, so it can change without significantly altering total C in atmosphere).
{27:35} — C14 half-life = 5,000 years; conserved in atmosphere (thus, wherever
CO2 goes, C14 goes – its analysis reveals absorption of CO2.
{See: Gosta (?) Pederson (sp?) of Sweden for similar analysis}
28:00 – C14 Discussion
a. How C14 forms – Cosmic rays
b. How C14 forms – human
1) nuclear bomb fission – NTBT end 1963 –
 in 20 years extra C14 virtually gone from atmosphere (decayed)
 30:00 – C14 decays almost perfectly exponentially (See figure “Absorption of CO2”) – correlation between observed C14 and exponential decay is .996 {32:02} (which means that the first order Taylor series where absorption is proportional to abundance is “not just an approximation, it’s close to exact.”
 Exponential decay means that absorption of CO2 (α) is proportional to the abundance (r) of CO2.
2) {30:50) Nuclear power plants (1970’s and 1980’s = significant increase)
 This artificially extended the apparent absorption time of C14 (from the bomb testing)
 {31:20} IPCC Models use “so called” Bern Model – 200 years – even then, 30% of C14 remains in the simulated world,
32:34 — Fossil Fuel Emission – Conservation Equation {See 45:10 – independent upper bound}
 Easily solved (no supercomputer necessary, heh), i.e., it is completely defined.
 32:55 Anthropogenic CO2 Perturbation – with an initial CO2 level and the subsequent CO2 emission, the evolution of anthropogenic CO2 is entirely determined.
 Fossil Fuel Emission During 1995-2015
Increased linearly – after 2002 rate increased 300%
 35:00 Increased human CO2 abundance ALSO increase its absorption rate, eventually in balance; net human CO2 then, 0.
 35:25 Equilibrium level of human CO2 (equation for when emission = absorption)
 After about 10 years, human CO2 “will disappear.”
 36:45 – At 2002 fossil fuel emission level, human CO2 = 30ppmv
After 2002, 300% increase in CO2 per year matched by absorption rate, eventually they will be in equilibrium differing only by a constant (two parallel lines) – 37:30 — net emission then becomes a constant, thus, CO2 growth (in abundance) is constant, increasing linearly like emission
Absorption of human CO2 (equilibrium) drifts higher.
 CO2 at any instant = its equilibrium level 10 years prior (see graph) – “limited memory” (never “catches up” to the equil. Level) – “EMISSION FROM EARLIER TIMES IS INCONSEQUENTIAL.” – any influence has been erased by absorption.
40:00 – Upper Bound of Human CO2 Emission {See also at 18:12 infra} – Note: actual human CO2 less (shaded area in graph)
40:22 – Human CO2 emission increases steadily with population
 41:15 – Re: Ability of government to control human CO2 emission: to date, nearly $2 Trillion dollars has been diverted to “renewable energy.” – it hasn’t made a dent in the above relationship.
 42:25 Conservation Equation solved with exponentially related CO2 emission/historical population level – 42:45 for a direct comparison of atmospheric CO2 Conservation Equation result with human, start in instrumental era, ~1960 (Note: approx.. 20ppmv of T. 30 human CO2 since 19th c. was after, like most pop. Growth, 1960)
 43:35 — In 2007, the human CO2 contribution to atmospheric CO2 was 28% (natural 72%)
 45:10 The natural CO2 (thermally induced) component must be >= 67%; human, therefore, <= 33% {upper bound on human} – Note: This upper bound is INDEPENDENT of upper bound found from above analysis of fossil fuel emission.
 45:48 Together, these two analyses of upper bound for human CO2 effect a double blind test
46:00 – Two Questions
1) How Would CO2 Emissions Have Evolved Were Human CO2 Absent (post 1960)
 Cuban Missile Crisis example – lesson (Per Salby): American bureaucracy failed Kennedy (mis-information) Moral: even IF gov’t. could control human CO2 emission, can’t control bulk which is natural CO2 emission.
2) 53:00 When Will Fossil Fuel CO2 Emission Reach 50% {53:35 in 2014 < pot. max. 30% (boundary) human – Note: models assume 69!%} of Total CO2 Increase?
 That is: if fossil fuel use down to zero and can’t even eliminate half of CO2 increase (CO2 still increasing), what is the point?
 54:35 The post-2002 300% increase in fossil fuel emission must be mirrored in an increase in atmospheric CO2 — fossil fuel component mirrored, should have increased CO2 >100% more than observed increase – it did not (see graph).
 55:05 Models over-estimate human CO2 (far over (2.5x) observed upper boundary) using Bern model and eventually human CO2 erroneously becomes nearly ALL the CO2 increase.
 56:15 — Per above α analysis (Salby’s), in 2092 is the first year that human CO2 could possibly reach 50% of the total CO2 increase – Note: emissions today are irrelevant (only the preceding 1 or 2 decades’ human CO2 emissions will be relevant, i.e., 2072’s at earliest).
 57:33 – Fossil fuel depletion rates of reserves by 100 years or so {As noted by another commenter, this is likely not the outer limits of world fossil fuel reserves} – models assume fossil fuel emission continues indefinitely
 59:00 – When fossil fuel emission is halved, equilibrium (absorption-emission) is halved
 1:00:00 — THUS, Answer to above Q: Never. {anthro reach 50% of total CO2} {Note: Underlying assumption: before it can, fossil fuel reserves will be exhausted.}
1:00:30 – Atmospheric absorption/opacity (water vapor takes up any extra heat) – CO2 gets “scraps” – increase of total net CO2 increases atmospheric opacity ~6% — but already at 80, opacity has plateaued, so irrelevant beyond that (human % less than 1% – negligible).
1:02:35 – Radiative Equilibrium (calculation of CO2 heat affect, “temperature perturbation,” on earth) – adds (per above calc.) less than .2 of one degree K. It can be amplified or negated by feedback mechanisms which are “countless.”
1:03:10 – A dominant mechanism is Convective Feedback – overturning of air – compared to other feedbacks’ time periods (weeks, months, longer), convective feedback is instantaneous (leaves impact, “horse in race,” in the dust) – 1:04:00 – illustration of Convective Feedback on radiative temperature – 1:07:00 – Radiative Convective Equilibrium reduces the temperature perturbation if increased CO2 (above at 1:02:35) from .2 K to less than .1 K.
1:07:40 – What will temperature perturbation of increase in CO2 be not just for a doubling (from 280 of 19th c. (taking this as a given; not proven, btw) to 560), rather, setting that aside, let’s ask: What would be effect of CO2 emissions of ALL fossil fuels used down to level zero?
Answer: 1:07:50 Around 2100, atmospheric CO2 (if continues on trend) will be around 690ppmv. Atmospheric opacity up by 1.1% (only 40% of that due to CO2 from fossil fuel emission) – surface temp. increased < .6 K, reduced by convective equilibrium, net temp. perturbation: < .1 K.
1:08:35 – Context (graph) for temperature perturbation above – Global mean temp. 1850 – present up .8 deg (due to just 2 decades) – NO systematic change — clearly no systematic relationship to CO2 which increased steadily. 1:11:11 – the “anthropogenic perturbation isn’t even detectible.”
Conclusion: global temperature is controlled by just about everything BUT fossil fuel emission. — 1:12:00 CO2 is not measurably/detectibly influenced by fossil fuel emission, therefore, even less could fossil fuel emission affect what is affected (which is not much per above) by total atmospheric CO2.
1:12:30 – This subject is closed. There is no rational reason to further analyze CO2. Personal reason became, “by accident” interested in CO2 analysis: writing a new book on atmosphere and climate, 1:13:00 he was struck by fundamental contradiction between “what was being sold versus what the atmosphere was clearly doing.” – 1:13:34 But for the university in Australia taking away his research resources (the only reason he entered into production of that book – all he could do at that point), he would never have done his CO2 investigation:

“I couldn’t have done it without them.”

Lololol Amazing irony. (God’s, imo) 
1:14:00 – 1:40 Questions from Audience (for an American, the accents are DELIGHTFUL)
1) Laudation from Christopher, Lord Monckton
2) Q: When are you going to publish in a respected journal?
A (Salby) 1:15:00 I cannot publish THIS material until I publish the material from which it is derived and THAT material cannot be published until I recover my research files and been reinstated in the field.”

3) 1:16 Q: (…. hm…about pause and explaining, etc… hard to understand questioner)
A: 1:18 (Salby):

“Pause” is a “misnomer.”

YES!!!
#(:))
“cause of so called ‘pause’ = “return to normality” – more interesting question is what caused the warming in 1980’s and 1990’s – models got tuned for CO2 covariance with temp. increase and no reasonable basis for this; not really related – … .
4) 1:25:30 Q: Re: upper bound for residence C14 time.
A: (Salby) I used the longest residence time – if I’d used the shorter of the (est. error bar ranges per questioner 4 – 25) times… I used 3 different ways to explore residence times… did total of 5 and the other 2 methods yielded even shorter res. times. Key: whether it is 1 or 4 or 8… it is not TWO hundred years (as per Bern model IPCC bases models on)
5) 1:28:20 Q: Re: Club of Rome etc… skipped
6) 1:28:42 Q (Monckton): Re: Negative conductive feedback – How did you quantify that feedback? And did you consider another, short-acting, feedback, the evaporative feedback (3 times as strong as models assume)?
A. (Salby) Evaporative feedback is coupled to convection – vertical transport of both water vapor and of temp./heat – the convective feedback I considered has evaporative feedback (i.e., latent heat transfer v. sensible (?) heat transfer) built into it – all is calculated v. a v. saturated (not dry) stability – Quantified by comparing rates of equilibrium structure with rates of convective structure (homogenizing is happening, from “skin” (tropopause at top) to bottom, … reduce by about half at the bottom…
7) Q (really, a little speech) (1:32:09): (Norwegian parliament climate bill – neat accent) — Norwegian politicians say, “is this really true” (ridiculousness of ‘climate change’ arguments)?? Well! They are going to discuss and do something! You do it, too, you British. 
8) Q: 1:35:00 What is your confidence that CO2 emissions will remain positive over the century to come?
A: (Salby) top of ice firns shows CO2 increasing over last century – if temp. stays about where is, temp.-induced (natural) CO2 likely stay about where it is (this is the basis) – on the other hand, if temp. were to “come down substantially” (not like anything seen within record of last century), then, CO2 could stop increasing OR, at least, rate of increase may slow
9) Q: 1:37 We’re told CO2 levels higher than in last 30 million years, any times in past where CO2 higher?
A: (Salby) Absolutely (yes). Higher in other periods. Proxies ( but, with careful damping and the like calculations can better estimate) can grossly underestimate the CO2 level when formed.
10) Q: ~1:39 — So it is natural, NOT human CO2 which is responsible for the net increase in CO2?
A: Yes. Slide at 1:39:45 used to answer this.

End.
I hope this is helpful to some of you!
Janice

Chris Hanley
Reply to  Janice Moore
April 13, 2015 9:25 pm

Yes, thank you for that, as a non-scientist I was a bit disappointed by the dismissive comments from some regular contributors whose opinions hitherto I have respected.
I appreciated Dr Salby’s empirical approach, given the paucity of reliable data prior to the satellite era.
That CO2 concentration rose ~280ppm — ~310pp, if proxies are to be believed, without significant human emissions is a puzzle and the assumption that natural emissions exactly match natural sinks at all times also seems unwarranted.

Reply to  Chris Hanley
April 14, 2015 5:26 am

the assumption that natural emissions exactly MATCH natural sinks at all times also seems unwarranted.
There is no such assumption, in fact as posted by Ferdinand on multiple occasions the evidence is that natural sinks are greater than natural sources during the period during which we have been releasing fossil fuel generated CO2 into the atmosphere.

Duster
Reply to  Janice Moore
April 13, 2015 9:57 pm

That is impressive work, given how hard it was to watch. Thanks.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Duster
April 14, 2015 6:08 am

You are so very welcome, Chris Hanley and Duster. Thanks for your kind words and for taking the time to write them.
Re: Dr. Salby’s Mistreatment by Macquarie University of Australia:
1. “This email’s accusations (if true I have independent confirmation now, title changed to reflect this – Anthony) is quite something, it illustrates the disturbing lengths a university will go to suppress ideas they don’t agree with. So much for academic freedom at Macquarie University.”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/08/professor-critical-of-agw-theory-being-disenfranchised-exiled-from-academia-in-australia/
2. “On closer inspection the NSF report used by people to attack Salby does not appear to be the balanced, impartial analysis I would have expected. Indeed the hyperbolic language based on insubstantial evidence is disturbing to say the least.” (Jo Nova)
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/11/murry-salby-responds-to-critics/

Reply to  Janice Moore
April 16, 2015 10:36 pm

Great notes! Either I lost mine or didn’t take any…whatever he may lack in interpersonal skills, whatever reasonable and honest objections may be raised by Ferdinand, Willis, and others, there is absolutely NO way his argument can be currently ruled out. There is absolutely NO way a researcher of his stature should be fired and have his efforts confiscated.

Chip Javert
April 13, 2015 8:39 pm

Janice:How do you do this? 2700 words in your “notes”. Excellent job.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Chip Javert
April 13, 2015 8:59 pm

Oh, Monsieur (Mister?) Javert, thank you. Just pretended I was back in the classroom… . Plus, Dr. Salby is such a hero for the truth that I was quite motivated. Thank you for your so generously and kindly acknowledging my efforts!
#(:))
l love YOUR witty slam-downs of Daniel above (and that horrid M0sher — that man makes me SICK; he has money in this game, still does work for Enviroprofiteers, if I’m not mistaken (and I don’t think I am, but, good to put that little modifier in, heh) … and when is he going to disgorge the third volume of those “Climategate” e mails he’s been sitting on for years, now?… last I heard… (a WUWTer asked, he was “working on it”…) — and your day-in-day-out excellent wit, too — glad you are in the WUWT regular commenting squadron with your powerful speech!

Bill McCarter
April 13, 2015 8:47 pm

Finally finished all the comments, This is rock solid work from Dr Salby, congratulations. And thanks to the tireless work of Op the posters and the trolls. One can always determine how close to the target one is by the quality and quantity of the flack. Such a logical and precise mind that developed this lecture is terrifying to the rent seekers. The argument leaves no holes, so they determine that the Man must be denigrated. I enjoy especially the trolls (in a dark fashion), as when using the scientific method, answers that are 180 degrees out still point to the truth. Dr Salby has crushed the keystone of AGW.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Bill McCarter
April 13, 2015 9:02 pm

Hey, Bill McCarter — I just want to say to YOU — Way — to — go. What a guy to read ALL those comments. Yes, Bart and others have some EXCELLENT knowledge to add.
Nice comment by you. Hear, hear.
Now, I’m going to go have a snack!

Michael 2
Reply to  Bill McCarter
April 14, 2015 8:10 pm

Bill McCarter says “Dr Salby has crushed the keystone of AGW.”
Not really. AGW is crushed when you no longer see it except for its dust. How many times have I seen warmists claim to have crushed skeptics? That’s not for either side to claim.
There’s a big IF in the presentation; several probably, and the big IF is the accuracy of the presentation. Does the data exist and does it say what Dr Salby says it says? If his data is accurate and his interpretation correct then yes, it is compelling.

Reply to  Michael 2
April 15, 2015 5:43 am

Take a look at what I have done with the available CO2 data by clicking on my name, and come to your on conclusions about the relative natural and anthropogenic contributions. I welcome your comments on my blog.

Editor
April 13, 2015 9:43 pm

I keep reading folks saying that Dr Salby’s work has been confiscated by his previous University employers. This confuses me.
My main issue is that unless there is something unusual about his scientific work, it should be replicable by others. But in this case it sounds like he can’t even replicate it himself … does that seem odd to anyone but me?
Perhaps if he were to publish a list of what he is missing, it would make more sense. But I’m not seeing why he can’t replicate the work.
Does anyone have any kind of authoritative list of what he says he lost? What is he missing, and why can it not be replaced, re-obtained, or duplicated?
Look, I understand that there are datasets that are unique … ice core measurements, say. That’s why people like the Moseley-Thompsons not archiving their data is so egregious.
But given Dr. Salby’s focus, that seems unlikely. I’ve not read that he did expeditions to gather new one-of-a-kind data.
And I understand that if you lose your computer code, it could take a while to replace it … but that’s just time.
So I’m afraid that “the University ate my homework” doesn’t seem to me like all that believable a long-term explanation. Yes, it would set you back … but if you can’t replicate your own work, you’re just out of luck.
w.

Duster
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 13, 2015 10:05 pm

The “university grabbed my research data” is the sour note in the talk. He also says that is why there is no publication of the work. That said, aside from the terrible pace of the presentation, what he says is clear and easy to follow, well illustrated by charts and equations. He takes a suspenders and belt approach and shows multiple ways in which he derives the same results using independent data.

VicV
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 14, 2015 7:28 am

Willis – Salby’s conclusions seem interesting enough to merit further research. Your questions have merit also. Perhaps they should be addressed to him directly – but by someone who can frame them genuinely, without insinuation.

Reply to  VicV
April 14, 2015 9:58 am

Thanks, Vic. I have no idea if “Salby’s conclusions seem interesting enough to merit further research”, nor do you, because he hasn’t revealed his code and data. When and if he ever gets around to doing so, we’ll be able to see if his work has enough value to merit following his ideas.
Finally, the idea that one should have to ask him politely and nicely and kiss his Papal Ring before getting an answer is nonsense. If he wants to be a scientist he needs to answer the questions that he doesn’t like. Answering questions you do like and not answering those posed in some other-than-pleasant fashion is for politicians, not scientists
w.

VicV
Reply to  VicV
April 14, 2015 11:09 am

To each his own. Matched with other insights I’ve received over time, the conclusions seem interesting to me (must I explicitly say that that’s my opinion?), and I presume others, from the comments I’ve seen here, feel the same. The same apparently can be said of your position.
As far as whether to be confrontational or neutral in communication style… well, go ahead and ask your questions with attitude. I think you’re less likely to get useful answer. In fact, I think you’re more likely to get an answer – or non-answer – that fits your preconceived notions.

Reply to  VicV
April 14, 2015 11:56 am

VicV April 14, 2015 at 11:09 am

To each his own. Matched with other insights I’ve received over time, the conclusions seem interesting to me (must I explicitly say that that’s my opinion?), and I presume others, from the comments I’ve seen here, feel the same. The same apparently can be said of your position.

Thanks for the reply, Vic. I fear that until he posts his data and code I’m uninterested in his speculations, because I can’t follow them anywhere without his data and code.

As far as whether to be confrontational or neutral in communication style… well, go ahead and ask your questions with attitude. I think you’re less likely to get useful answer. In fact, I think you’re more likely to get an answer – or non-answer – that fits your preconceived notions.

I always enjoy the folks who claim that the world would be all rosy if only people asked scientific questions in a nice, polite, Vic-approved manner … people have asked Dr. Salby many times to back up his claims and in a number of different manners. And his universal response is no response at all. So I fear you have no data upon which to lay a claim that a nice question would have elicited a response, and in fact all available data indicate the exact opposite.
Finally, what gave you the impression that I’m asking Dr. Salby questions? I have no questions for him, just a request that he publish his data and code if he wishes to be taken seriously. Once he does that, many people might have questions, but until then he’s just flapping his lips and making unsubstantiated, unreferenced, unsupported claims that are not worth questioning.
w.

Michael 2
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 14, 2015 8:06 pm

Willis says “I understand that if you lose your computer code, it could take a while to replace it”
I don’t lose mine. Multiple redundant backups in encrypted repositories so nobody can tamper with the source code.
“So I’m afraid that ‘the University ate my homework’ doesn’t seem to me like all that believable a long-term explanation.”
It also shows a lack of foresight in not preparing for that eventuality. Considering the trillions of dollars at stake everyone involved in climate science ought to treat data with the same “integrity assurance” procedures that would be useful for evidence to be presented in a court of law. In the case of digital data files, having it signed by PGP or GPG by several diverse persons of impeccable reputation and stored redundantly in different repositories would go a long way to alleviating claims that the data was invented yesterday.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 16, 2015 10:47 pm

What exactly is missing? You and Mosh are all up about “wull he didn’t publish his code”. What code? Take screenshots of his graphs, it never stopped you before. The equations are all there. Abide by your own standard. What exactly do you disagree with in his equations? Ferdinand isn’t whining. He makes very specific and reasonable objections. Murray makes a new and interesting argument. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong, but it deserves far better than yours and Mosh’s piffle.

ferdberple
April 13, 2015 10:09 pm

I suggest it is more likely that that the increase in the use of fossil fuels is the cause of the population increase.
=================
population density is directly related to available energy. our modern cities would be impossible without transportation of food and water in, and waste materials out.

ferdberple
April 13, 2015 10:13 pm

funny how ice ages always end when CO2 is at its lowest, and always begin when CO2 is at its highest. The only conclusion possible from this is that CO2 causes cooling.
http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/400000yearslarge.gif

Catcracking
Reply to  ferdberple
April 14, 2015 7:58 pm

Ferd,
Interesting plot with the tracking between CO2 and temperature .
It seems that temperature generally follows CO2 change on the way down but not much on the way up. Is that because of the scale being such that it does not show?
Also it shows that the rise is much quicker while the falling is much less so with more zig zags.
Any comments

Catcracking
Reply to  Catcracking
April 14, 2015 8:09 pm

Correction, CO 2 change follows temperature change, big error in words on my part!

April 13, 2015 10:15 pm

Longwinded and over complicated presentation of what should be something simple to explain.
The assumption that we will run out of fossil fuel soon, is a club of Rome idea for fruition 15 years ago, that will keep being extended as new reserves are found.

Bunker Hill Jim
April 14, 2015 1:20 am

Thank you all for the fine insights and discussion of Dr. Salby’s presentation. The detail, whether settled science or not tells this layman that the science is not settled. Somewhere around minutes 45 – 48, Dr. Salby uses an example of significant government policy decisions being made based upon bad, or rather, incomplete information and assumptions. This layman understands that the “MET’ reading have shown increased global (even as just a few really old measurement sites have been in continuous use) temperatures; well before the industrial revolution. His main point in my mind is that mitigation actions are being hoisted by governments (carbon taxes, etc.) using global warming / climate change / it is (not) raining out side arguments. Were these mitigating actions NOT to be taken by governments, there would be No Fundamental impact on what’s going on outside my window today, next week, next month, next ….

Frederick Colbourne
April 14, 2015 2:01 am

For those who say that only peer-reviewed journals publish REAL science.
Alfred Wegener wrote a book about his theory of mobile continents. Books are not peer-reviewed. Science magazine and other journal were publishing rebuttals but nothing much in support of mobile continents (continental drift). Science published a letter that called Wegener’s theory as “Teutonic pseudoscience”.
James Croll was a museum curator or janitor. Croll’s work on the orbital theory of the causes of continental glaciation was widely discussed, but generally disbelieved. He wrote a book setting out the theory of continental glaciation. Today Milankovitch is credited by most for Croll’s work. But the fact is that Milankovitch’s role was to improve the calculations.
Unpopular theories do not pass peer review, which is why we get revolutions in science. Instead of gradual evolution of theories, we get more or less complete exclusion of new theories until the promoters of the [old] theories retire or die.
Now that government has corrupted the scientific process, we may have to depend on the political process rather than the aging process.
Lest anyone accuse me of ageism, let me say that I am well past the retirement age for academics and scientists in government service.
[or should that not be: “promoters of both the new and the old theories die” ? .mod]

ferdberple
Reply to  Frederick Colbourne
April 14, 2015 5:57 am

“science advances one funeral at a time.”
Max Planck

SteveO
Reply to  Frederick Colbourne
April 16, 2015 11:34 am

I agree with you completely Fred. Many scientific areas suffer from the same “resistance to change”. It took 50 years for hand washing to be accepted in medical practice and they ran the good doctor who realized it out of the tribe. same thing is happening with the lipid hypothesis and others. One would think after seeing this time and again throughout human history, we would realize and change our ways, maybe this points to some human understanding issue?
Salby presents clear data that turns the AGW Theory on its head. The temperature data also turns AGW predictions on their heads. Sooner or later the results will outweigh the theories and new theories will be uncovered or revisited that are able to track historical climate proxies, if those proxies are any good?
It is obvious that there were ice ages and warm periods in the past without Humans, so I have a really hard time believing that we have any control or affect on the climate. I look at the last century and a half and it clearly shows, like Salby says, that there were only 4 decades of warming and 8 decades of cooling or no change, so I have a hard time when the temperature graph stays flat or goes down while the CO2 graph continues climbing in obvious increasing divergence during the last decade. the last problem I have is clear, the science has been obviously hijacked by governments and NGO’s for profit or control or both. So I believe it will be a long time before the truth comes out, even if the data is completely divergent from the theories. Today we are here fighting over nonsense, as the world stays constant or cooling and the CO2 increases linearly! Salby is one of a few that seems to show that CO2 is not running climate and could not even if it has huge increases or decreases, I see the solar guys predicting a cooling sun, thus cooling planet…the data seems to be favoring the Non CO2, solar processes to me.

April 14, 2015 7:27 am

If temperature indeed were the main driver of observed changes atmospheric CO2, why are the CO2 levels not higher in the medieval warm period, or during the holocene optimum? Dr. Salby would need to explain that. It is a pity that he does not seem to engage online, either here or anywhere else.

VicV
Reply to  Michael Palmer
April 14, 2015 8:48 am

Salby’s conclusions made me think of Stephen Wilde’s “Hot Water Bottle Effect.” These ideas seem wholly compatible. Variances in the CO2 and other component make-up of the atmosphere relative to the temperature of the atmosphere (which seems the most volatile major segment of the earth’s spherical layers) can be attributed to natural variances in mechanisms such as that which creates temperature lag-times. In other words, specific conditions can modify the observed effect of a major factor, but those variances don’t negate the dominance of that major factor.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Michael Palmer
April 14, 2015 10:24 am

He does, Mr. Palmer. In his Hamburg (2013) lecture, he makes a powerful case that CO2 lags temperature by a quarter cycle. I posted that lecture (youtube) here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/04/13/new-video-dr-murry-salby-control-of-atmospheric-co2/#comment-1906025

Reply to  Janice Moore
April 15, 2015 9:18 am

Thanks, Janice. I actually did watch that lecture a while ago, and I don’t recall that it contained a clear explanation, at least not for the holocene optimum – which is a couple of thousands of years in the past. The ice core record does not support a lag between CO2 and temperature as great as that.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  Michael Palmer
April 15, 2015 9:52 am

No one knows with precision what CO2 levels were during the MWP and other previous warm periods, all warmer than now.
Ice cores lack sufficient resolution and in any case depend upon snow deposition rates. Stomata data are also lacking.
There well might have been decades during the MWP in which CO2 concentrations at least in some regions were in the 300s. It’s possible and plausible, if not probable, but adequate observations are lacking.
We do know however that in Europe in the early 19th century, with the LIA still in effect, ambient CO2 was well over 400 ppm from direct measurements.

Reply to  Catherine Ronconi
April 15, 2015 12:34 pm

Sorry Catherine,
Many of the historical direct measurements were taken in the middle of towns, forests etc. with huge diurnal changes and even then already a lot of local contamination. CO2 levels in the first few hundred meters over land are simply unreliable then and today.
If you look at only the CO2 measurements over the oceans or coastal with wind from the sea, these are all around the ice core levels for the same period. See further:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/beck_data.html

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  Catherine Ronconi
April 15, 2015 12:40 pm

Ferdinand,
I know. I don’t suppose that the average global CO2 concentration was in the 400s during the LIA. But I also don’t think that ice cores have sufficient resolution to know with acceptable precision what were ambient levels for 30 to 60 year intervals during the Medieval Warm Period, for instance, or indeed during other of the hottest decades during past several hundred thousand years.
I could be wrong, of course. And I also consider it likely that some possibly large part of the gain since c. 1850 is man-made, but don’t know whether that might be 70 or 100 ppm.

Reply to  Catherine Ronconi
April 16, 2015 7:55 am

Catherine,
I think that you underestimate the resolution of some of the ice cores:
For the past 1,000 years there are ice cores with a resolution of ~20 years, which show a drop of ~6 ppmv in the LIA, which is about 8 ppmv/K assuming that the temperature reconstructions of Moberg or Esper have some value (Mann’s reconstruction not used…).
The LIA lasted some 200 years, thus no problem for such ice cores.
The average level over the last 20 years was 380 ppmv, which would show up in that ice core over the full 1,000 year period.
For the last 70,000 years, we have an ice core (Taylor Dome) with a resolution of ~40 years, that would show a peak of 365 ppmv…

April 14, 2015 8:36 am

After having time to think about this, I think the truth is human emissions of CO2 are causing the total concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere to be higher then if they were not present. Does added CO2 cause some warming ? I think it does. Do natural sources for CO2 account for most of the CO2 concentrations? Yes they do.
Given that, the question comes down to this. How much added contributions of CO2 from human emissions are needed to off set natural processes? I think the answer to this question given the contributions from human versus natural emissions of CO2 is human emissions will have to be much greater then they are today UNLESS the amounts of CO2 emissions coming from natural resources stays at a steady state.
The greater the natural emissions of CO2 stray from this steady state the less significant will be the overall human impact.
I would say unlike the last 150 years, going forward emissions of CO2 from natural sources are no longer going to continue to rise but fall. With this said I think it will only take a tiny drop in CO2 emissions from natural sources to fall which would be able to overwhelm the human added contributions of CO2 to the atmosphere.
The increase of CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere over the last 150 years being mostly due to natural emissions. The test will come when CO2 emissions from natural sources begins to fall when /if the temperature trend begins to fall. How big of an impact this may or may not have on future CO2 concentrations will depend upon the magnitude, lag time and the duration of time that lower natural emissions for CO2 take place.
Does this reasoning sound logical? If not why?

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
April 15, 2015 6:13 am

Salvatore,
Your logic is good, but you overestimate the effect of the natural cycle: the current net effect of the natural cycle is more sink than source: about half what humans emit in quantity.
Temperature of course has an effect, which can be seen in seasonal and year by year changes of 4-5 ppmv/°C. The long term change was 8 ppmv/°C over the past 800,000 years.
Thus to compensate for the current ~2 ppmv/year increase in the atmosphere, you need a drop of 0.25°C per year (!) in temperature, which is hardly to be expected…

April 14, 2015 9:07 am

Another factor that comes into play is the saturation factor. How much of a difference are increases in CO2 concentrations at this level going to contribute to the overall GHG effect? The argument is at this level any increases in CO2 concentrations would be minimal.

David Ramsay Steele
April 14, 2015 9:28 am

I think this is a highly entertaining and provocative presentation by an unusually gifted scientist, though it will require another couple of watches before I’ve really digested it.
However, surely Salby is way off about fossil fuels running out. Hasn’t he heard that reserves of fossil fuels keep growing? They are much greater now than they were twenty years ago, and will presumably be greater twenty, fifty, or a hundred years from now than they are today.
Also, I thought the stuff about the Cuban missile crisis was a bit ill-advised. After all, if it’s true that the warheads were in Cuba, and if they were all set up and ready to fire (I’m still skeptical), that wouldn’t necessarily mean a thermonuclear exchange would have to break out right away.

Reply to  David Ramsay Steele
April 14, 2015 9:57 am

I talked with Murry afterwards regarding the FF reserves. (I believe they are enormous). He explained that he was using the figures others have generated, as that area is not his field of academic research or expertise.
He may have a view, but that is not part of his purpose in the lecture.

April 14, 2015 10:19 am

Duster says above on 13April2015 at 1050am:
The most probable cause of an ecological collapse in the nearish geological future is lack of available CO2, not an excess.
Here are some relevant comments from last month:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/03/14/matt-ridley-fossil-fuels-will-save-the-world-really/#comment-1883937
I have no time to run the numbers, but I do not think we have millions of years left for carbon-based life on Earth.
Over time, CO2 is ~permanently sequestered in carbonate rocks, so concentrations get lower and lower. During an Ice Age, atmospheric CO2 concentrations drop to very low levels due to solution in cold oceans, etc. Below a certain atmospheric CO2 concentration, terrestrial photosynthesis slows and shuts down. I suppose life in the oceans can carry on but terrestrial life is done.
So when will this happen – in the next Ice Age a few thousands years hence, or the one after that ~100,000 years later, or the one after that?
In geologic time, we are talking the blink of an eye before terrestrial life on Earth ceases due to CO2 starvation.
________________________
I wrote the following on this subject, posted on Icecap.us:
On Climate Science, Global Cooling, Ice Ages and Geo-Engineering:
[excerpt]
Furthermore, increased atmospheric CO2 from whatever cause is clearly beneficial to humanity and the environment. Earth’s atmosphere is clearly CO2 deficient and continues to decline over geological time. In fact, atmospheric CO2 at this time is too low, dangerously low for the longer term survival of carbon-based life on Earth.
More Ice Ages, which are inevitable unless geo-engineering can prevent them, will cause atmospheric CO2 concentrations on Earth to decline to the point where photosynthesis slows and ultimately ceases. This would devastate the descendants of most current [terrestrial] life on Earth, which is carbon-based and to which, I suggest, we have a significant moral obligation.
Atmospheric and dissolved oceanic CO2 is the feedstock for all carbon-based life on Earth. More CO2 is better. Within reasonable limits, a lot more CO2 is a lot better.
As a devoted fan of carbon-based life on Earth, I feel it is my duty to advocate on our behalf. To be clear, I am not prejudiced against non-carbon-based life forms, but I really do not know any of them well enough to form an opinion. They could be very nice. 🙂
Best, Allan

Daniel Kuhn
Reply to  Allan MacRae
April 14, 2015 10:39 am

thanks to the CO2 conentration we have, we don’t expect the next 2 glacial periods to unfold. despite the orbital forcing.

milodonharlani
Reply to  Daniel Kuhn
April 14, 2015 11:56 am

Who are “we”?
The next two glacial cycles would be over 200,000 years. Present elevated CO2 levels will return to whatever the basic processes of the earth would have them be within at most 1000 years, according to none other than the “Father of Global Warming”, Wallace Broecker.
The Pleistocene glaciations began with CO2 levels higher than now. Antarctic glaciation grew under even higher concentrations.
Lunt, et al, 2008, tried to connect late Pliocene Greenland glaciation with lowered CO2, but their effort was modeling all the way down.
Whoever “we” might be, they & you are obviously scientific illiterates.

Reply to  Daniel Kuhn
April 15, 2015 9:34 am

Ask yourself, by how much has the temperature changed so far due to the human production of CO2, and by how much does it change during glaciation and deglaciation? Even with the most wildly exaggerated models, AGW is vanishingly small in comparison.

Reply to  Daniel Kuhn
April 16, 2015 2:51 pm

Daniel, what is your educational background, and what is the educational background of the people you are quoting?

Editor
April 14, 2015 10:47 am

Ernest Bush April 13, 2015 at 1:04 pm

I haven’t seen any discussion yet of several things from that video. First, if you assume his Carbon14 curve is anywhere close to reality, human-caused CO2 disappears from atmospheric circulation in about 9 years. I assume that would be true of all atmospheric CO2. One could then conclude that CO2 emitted today will be gone from the atmosphere by 2025, absorbed by sinks. He said in the questions period that he used 5 different methods to calculate the turnover in CO2 and that this one was close to the longest period he derived.

Ernest, it appears that you (and perhaps Dr. Salby) are conflating two very different things—residence time of CO2, and half-life or e-folding time of CO2.
Residence time is how long an individual CO2 molecule stays in the air. Depending on how you measure it, you’ll get something from about 6 to 9 years.
But that’s not the issue in question. We want to know something very different, which is, how long will it take for a pulse of CO2 added to the atmosphere to decay back to the previous atmospheric concentration? This is measured in one of two ways, as a “half-life” or an “e-folding time”. Half-life is how long after being boosted by the introduction of a pulse of CO2 it takes for the atmospheric concentration to get halfway back to the equilibrium value.
“e-folding time” is similar, but it measures the amount of time for a pulse to decay to 1/e (about 37%) of the original increase in concentration.
The e-folding time for a pulse of CO2 is much longer than the residence time. Estimates of the e-folding time range from about 40 to about 170 years or so.
If Dr. Salby did not make that distinction between residence time and e-folding time crystal clear, then shame on him.
w.

VicV
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 14, 2015 11:15 am

Willis – A response above to “Thanks, Vic. I have no idea…”

Paul Milenkovic
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 14, 2015 3:43 pm

The e-pulse time and the e-folding time are one and the same thing if, and this is the big if, the CO2 flux leaving the ocean into a hypothetical CO2-free atmosphere is linear, that is, proportional to the CO2 concentration in the ocean, and the CO2 flux leaving the air into a CO2-free ocean is proportional to the CO2 concentration in the air.
If the ocean is in the linear-range of that Henry’s Law relationship for equilibrium with the air above it, which is a reasonable assumption given its nearly neutral pH, and if the non-deep ocean mixing is such that it exposes enough sea water to the air that the ocean is holding, what is it, about 30 times the CO2 as the air, then pretty much everything Dr. Salby is saying in the talk rings true.
Is the ocean anywhere near the saturation concentration of dissolved CO2? If it is, Dr. Salby needs to “go back to the drawing board.”

Reply to  Paul Milenkovic
April 15, 2015 6:53 am

Paul,
There mixing between ocean surface and the atmosphere is fast, but limited in capacity due to the Revelle/buffer factor, which caps the uptake to ~10% of the increase in the atmosphere (which is caused by the ocean carbonate chemistry).
Atmospheric content is ~800 GtC, ocean surface at ~1000 GtC. For the 5 GtC extra per year in the atmosphere, the ocean surface captures about 0.5 GtC extra.
The deep oceans have much more capacity, but the exchange rate with the atmosphere is only ~40 GtC/year, which due to the increased CO2 pressure in the atmosphere shows an unbalance of ~3 GtC extra retained by the deep oceans. Thus the enormous mass of carbon derivatives in the deep oceans is not of much help over short periods (even if it – contrary to the Bern model of the IPCC – doesn’t show any sign of saturation).
Vegetation then is good for an additional 1 GtC/year extra uptake, thanks to the extra 110 ppmv CO2 pressure in the atmosphere.
All together the total sink rate at an atmospheric pressure of 110 ppmv (~μatm) above equilibrium is about 4.5 GtC/year or ~2.15 ppmv/year. That gives an e-fold decay rate of 110 / 2.15 = 51.2 years for a linear process, which the CO2 cycle seems to be over very long periods.
Why the difference with the 5-9 years residence time? The residence time is based on the throughput of CO2 through the atmosphere during a year. The atmosphere contains ~800 GtC CO2, the throughput is estimated around 150 GtC/year in and out, which gives a residence time of 800 / 150 = 5.3 years.
The difference is that in this case, the throughput is two-way exchange: what goes in goes out in the same year without affecting the total mass in the atmosphere, besides the small difference between the ins and outs.
In the case of the residence time, most of the (huge) fluxes are driven by temperature changes. In the case of the e-fold decay rate, that is near entirely driven by pressure differences. There is hardly any cross connection between the two…
In addition: one of the arguments of Salby is based on the 14C bomb spike decay rate. The problem there is that the isotopic ratio which goes into the deep oceans is the ratio of today, but what comes out is the ratio of ~1000 years ago, including the influences of processes in the deep.
That makes e.g. that for the CO2 increase already in 1960, some 97.5% of all CO2 going into the deep oceans (99% 12CO2) returns in mass from the deep, but only 45% of 14CO2.
Which makes that the 14C bomb spike decay rate is a factor 3 faster than of a 12CO2 or total CO2 spike and his decay rate is a factor 3 too small…

Editor
April 14, 2015 12:42 pm

I gotta say … I found this National Science Foundation (NSF) document linked above to be quite unsettling. Here’s the Executive Summary:

Executive Summary
Allegations

• Subject [Dr. Murray Salby] submitted significantly overlapped proposals to NSF and another federal agency
• Subject [Dr. Murray Salby] received compensation fiom NSF awards substantially in excess of approved budget amounts
• Subject [Dr. Murray Salby], acting through a non-profit entity, overcharged NSF awards for indirect costs on a subcontract, and failed to disclose the subcontract to NSF
• Subject [Dr. Murray Salby], acting through his for-profit entity, received payments for effort that he documented with questionable time and effort reports
• Subject [Dr. Murray Salby] failed to comply with his University’s conflicts of interest and financial disclosure policy
Investigative Findings
OIG substantiated each of the five allegations, and established an extensive pattern of deceptive statements made by the Subject to his University and to NSF. OIG concluded that the activities of other individuals, and the non-profit and for-profit entities, were attributable to the Subject.
University Findings
The University substantiated conflicts of interest violations by the Subject. The Subject did not fully participate in the University investigation, and provided deceptive information to the University during its investigation. The Subject resigned from his faculty position at the University.
OIG Recommendations
OIG recommends that NSF debar the Subject for a period of five years.

Not encouraging … when the NSF finds “an extensive pattern of
deceptive statements made by the Subject [Dr. Salby] to his University and to NSF”
and bars him from receiving NSF funds for five years, on my planet that’s a very bad sign.
w.

milodonharlani
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 14, 2015 12:48 pm

The NSF exhibits an extensive pattern of deceptive statements:
http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/climate/

milodonharlani
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 12:49 pm

As of course also does the IPCC.

Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 12:52 pm

Thanks, Milodon. The NSF has fully documented the reasons behind its findings. Unless you can contradict those reasons, I fear that what the NSF does elsewhere is not very relevant.
w.

milodonharlani
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 12:54 pm

Of course it’s relevant. The NSF actively participates in the conspiracy to silence skeptics.

Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 5:23 pm

milodon, the NSF has presented a series of claims of fact, and they have given their findings and their action (no grants for five years). Either you or Dr. Salby are free to show that they are in error regarding the facts and findings. It’s not surprising that you haven’t done so, as you don’t have a dog in the fight. But to me it’s surprising that Dr. Salby has not done so.
Instead of showing that any facts are in error, you make the unsupported assertion that “The NSF actively participates in the conspiracy to silence skeptics” as though that meant something.
Now, the NSF is a very large organization. Who is in on the “conspiracy”? Other skeptics have gotten NSF grants. However, I know of no other skeptics who have had their funding cut off for five years for keeping two sets of books and double-billing the NSF. Yes, the NSF predominantly funds global warming adherents … but that’s three orders of magnitude different from Dr. Salby’s case.
And why would they bother with Dr. Salby? He hasn’t published anything, so why would they want to silence him?
In any case, if you wish to claim a pattern of behavior at NSF, you need to come up with some other examples where the NSF denied funding to skeptics by successfully accusing them of double-billing the government.
I’m sorry, milodon, but as far as we can see the evidence against Dr. Salby in this situation is overwhelming … and if Dr. Salby didn’t do those things, then why is he not out thunderously defending his reputation? I know if someone did that to me I’d be screaming to high heaven. I would quote and refute every one of their claims against me, detail by detail. Here are some details he would need to refute:

The Subject [Dr. Salby] has received federal award funds from NSF and other agencies at his University for the last 15-20 years. In 1994, the Subject created an outside, non-profit company (Company 1) with his [redacted], to receive federal funds from NSF and other agencies for research that paralleled his research at the University.
The Subject received compensation through this company for his effort on its awards, and may have received other payments through this company derived from its collection of substantial indirect costs on the awards.
The Subject never fully disclosed to either NSF or his University his association with Company 1, his dominant role in its activities and operations, or the extent of outside compensation received through it, instead minimizing his relationship with the company.
In late 2001 and early 2002, the Subject stopped charging effort directly on Company 1 awards, and instead accrued these charges as services of another company (Company 2) he created in 2003 and put into place as a subcontractor to Company 1, without telling NSF or other grantor agencies. The Subject received payments in 2003 and subsequent years for effort through Company 2 substantially in excess of amounts that had been approved for his services in the awards to Company 1, with no accountability as to the preparation and accuracy of his time and effort reports at Company 2.
The Subject’s use of Company 2 and his initiation of a subcontracting relationship shielded the Subject’s compensation from accountability and discovery. Furthermore, because Company 1 did not limit its recovery of indirect costs on its charges to NSF and other agencies for the costs of this subcontract, Company 1 received a windfall in indirect cost recoveries.

Now, he’s free to explain to us how that’s all not true, just like you or I or any falsely-accused innocent man would do. Since he has not done anything of the sort, well, you’re free to draw your conclusions from that. I know what mine are.
Finally, be very clear that his scientific claims are a separate subject. Regarding his science, his personal ethics are meaningless—his scientific claims either stand or fall on their own merit, without reference to the NSF or anything else. That’s the beauty of science.
My regards to you,
w.

milodonharlani
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 5:35 pm

Willis,
The climate studies of which climate skeptics have been funded by NSF?
Its board is clearly on board with the administration’s war on science (& coal). Read its climate statement, largely the product of NSF grantees at my alma mater.
You’re right that I don’t know the justice or injustice of NSF’s charges against Salby, but I do know the terrible power of the federal government. Assuming that its minions are good, decent, hard-working, disinterested, honest people is IMO the height of naivete.
Best regards & long may you wave.

Catherine Ronconi
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 5:55 pm

The NSF is like the rest of the totally corrupted “scientific” establishment.
Government funded “science” has produced trough-feeding swine like those at major universities and once worthwhile agencies such as NCAR and GISS. Now they’re just worse than worthless GIGO factories.

David Riser
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 6:51 pm

Willis,
You should read the entire report all the way to the end. Dr. Salby was debarred for 3 years not 5. The reason given was due to a duplicate proposal to two different federal agencies, neither of which were funded. Everything else was essentially dropped because of insufficient evidence. The two proposals were similar in language to about 53%, which makes their claim of identical false. Nor do they provide a timeline. In general I doubt a conspiracy exists, however government regulations are extremely complex and modified over time with no actual record of modification. Finally I would like to point out that the whole thing was a civil matter relating to accurately following procedures. No fraud, Nothing about bad science etc. Please don’t perpetuate attacks on someone just because you don’t care for his opinions or science.

Reply to  milodonharlani
April 14, 2015 11:34 pm

milodonharlani April 14, 2015 at 5:35 pm says:

Willis,
The climate studies of which climate skeptics have been funded by NSF?
Its board is clearly on board with the administration’s war on science (& coal). Read its climate statement, largely the product of NSF grantees at my alma mater.

I certainly agree that the NSF is fully on board the alarmism train. It is also true that they give very little money to skeptical scientists. With that said, they have funded William Gray’s work at the University of Colorado. But neither of those matter to the question at hand, which is, did they manufacture evidence against an innocent man?

You’re right that I don’t know the justice or injustice of NSF’s charges against Salby, but I do know the terrible power of the federal government. Assuming that its minions are good, decent, hard-working, disinterested, honest people is IMO the height of naivete.
Best regards & long may you wave.

Thanks for the wishes. I make few assumptions about the minions of the NSF, other than to assume the typical government mix—90% time servers working to rule, 5% trying to actually do something, and the final 5% determined to stop the other 5% from doing anything at all …
Catherine Ronconi April 14, 2015 at 5:55 pm says:

The NSF is like the rest of the totally corrupted “scientific” establishment.
Government funded “science” has produced trough-feeding swine like those at major universities and once worthwhile agencies such as NCAR and GISS. Now they’re just worse than worthless GIGO factories.

Thanks, Catherine. For me, I fear that such sweeping generalizations don’t advance the discussion much.
David Riser April 14, 2015 at 6:51 pm says:

Willis,
You should read the entire report all the way to the end. Dr. Salby was debarred for 3 years not 5. The reason given was due to a duplicate proposal to two different federal agencies, neither of which were funded.

You are correct that although the investigators recommend 5 years, the final sentence was 3 years … but you say that as though that makes him innocent. It does not. See below.
Regarding the projects, the report says that they were funded. See Table 1 inter alia.

Everything else was essentially dropped because of insufficient evidence.

No, it wasn’t. The findings are clear. All but one of the findings were upheld. There was one and only one finding dropped for insufficient evidence, as follows:

Lastly, Mr. Liechty expresses the view that NSFwill not seriously consider your position. This is simply not true. In fact, NSF opted to propose your debarment for three years, as opposed to the five-year debarment period initially recommended by the OIG, because of the concerns you raised regarding the preliminary finding that you prepared inaccurate and fraudulent time and effort sheets. You asserted that there was insufficient evidmce to support this allegation and, after a careful review of the evidence in the record, we agreed.
As noted in the OIG’s investigative report, our Notice of Proposed Debarment, and this Notice, however, NSF has determined that you engaged in a series of actions that demonstrates you are not presently responsible. Thus, I am issuing this Notice of Debarment.

Debarment is a very serious response, and is only done in cases of serious wrongdoing.
You go on to say:

The two proposals were similar in language to about 53%, which makes their claim of identical false. Nor do they provide a timeline. In general I doubt a conspiracy exists, however government regulations are extremely complex and modified over time with no actual record of modification. Finally I would like to point out that the whole thing was a civil matter relating to accurately following procedures. No fraud, Nothing about bad science etc.

This was not a matter of “accurately following procedures”. It had nothing to do with whether regulations are “extremely complex”. It didn’t happen because the regs are “modified over time”. It was a scam, pure and simple. As the report says:

The Subject is synonymous with Company 1 and Company 2, which are essentially shell companies created by the Subject that allowed him to divert funds from approved uses without notice or accountability, and to shield Subject’s income from public disclosure.

I’ve worked under a variety of government contracts before, so the exact setup he used was of interest to me. The way he did it was actually quite clever. On most government contracts you can only use a certain percentage or a fixed amount of money for administration overheads, including his salary.
But with his setup, he could have his shell company bill the government as a sub-contractor to the project, and all of that money could flow directly to him by way of the shell company with no cap on the amount. Bad scientist, no cookies. I note that the report appends the list of the actual evidence for this setup. You seem to think that Dr. Salby got confused. The evidence, however, disagrees. It’s only half a matter of confusion … the “con” half …

Please don’t perpetuate attacks on someone just because you don’t care for his opinions or science.

Mmmmm … I have little opinion on Dr. Salby’s CO2 science, because to date he hasn’t written about it, nor has he provided either data or code to allow us to replicate his work.
And to reiterate what I said above, the question of his ethics is a totally separate issue from his science.
w.

David Riser
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 15, 2015 3:50 am

Willis,
You are correct, the science and the ethics are separate issues. Yet you are driving home the ethics issue and implying motive when you have no evidence, ON A SCIENCE BLOG.
You are stating he did it all on purpose. That is not what NSF found after reviewing his rebuttal which you apparently did not read. NSF listed one and only one reason why he was debarred. In the investigation it is very clear that neither proposal was funded! He was debarred for 3 years for failure to check a box on a proposal that wasn’t accepted.
Investigations are not a hearing before an impartial judge or jury. They are just the opinions of an investigator until the evidence is weighed, accepted or thrown out. In this case the agency itself, did not take it to a judge, an administrator reviewed the investigation and made a determination. This is typical in a case where the outcome is administrative in nature and non punitive. Debarment is a procedural recourse for procedural errors. Not criminal! Not actionable in a civil court. Procedural.
Science Blog Willis!

milodonharlani
Reply to  milodonharlani
April 15, 2015 2:59 pm

Willis,
How can the NSF not fund professor emeritus & Father of Hurricane Science Bill Gray?
Sorry, but you’ll need a better example of funding a skeptic who isn’t also an icon of meteorology. Maybe a younger, less eminent skeptic without a nationwide TV audience.

April 14, 2015 1:19 pm

Dr. Salby, is very impressive and makes so many valid points. The IPCC, along with AGW theory have no data to back up any of their claims. Dr. Salby ,presented data to back up what he had to say, thus his credentials on the climate are far superior to the pathetic IPCC for that reason alone. The IPCC being all talk with many claims and predictions in the face of data that does not support anything they have to say or predict. At least Dr. Salby ,has data.
What is worse is since AGW theory has come about, all of a sudden the accepted data has either been ignored, questioned or said to be in error.
This theory (AGW), is the only theory that has data conform to it rather then the other way around.

April 14, 2015 1:24 pm

https://twitter.com/tan123/status/587764580517949440
This data alone proves AGW theory is in a word WRONG.
Dr. Salby, presentation is fantastic. I am going to listen to it several times.

April 14, 2015 1:29 pm

All that should be posted are the charts and my commentary. thanks

Kev-in-Uk
April 14, 2015 4:18 pm

My problem is that Salby’s work is simply confirming what myself and many other geologist types have been saying/thinking for years – and that is that the whole anthro versus natural thing is being swept under the carpet. You simply cannot ignore the fact that when the oceans ‘sneeze’ or ‘gulp’ (due to thermal changes) the resultant CO2 change far surpasses any human derived element. It’s probably the same for the rainforests and other co2 sinks/emitters. Ultimately, the potential for natural variation in co2 is seemingly and logically far greater than any anthro portion? The co2 ‘budget’ is an estimate, sure – but even as an estimate it shows that a few % change in the large sinks (or emitters) will swamp the human element. His presentation is good and shows a good degree of logical deduction/analysis. I do think that until full published workings are shown and reviewed/validated, it will be ‘dissed’ as some comments have suggested though.

Reply to  Kev-in-Uk
April 15, 2015 7:12 am

Kev,
Warming oceans give 4-17 ppmv/K extra at equilibrium.
Warming vegetation in general is an increasing sink.
Warming/cooling earth shows an average 8 ppmv/K over the past 800,000 years, except for the past 160 years.
How does the natural carbon cycle overwhelm the 200 ppmv extra human contribution?

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 15, 2015 7:44 am

Ferdinand your problem is you think you know to much. Your conclusions have been proven to be false by the data Dr. Salby presented. Pretty clear cut.
Then again as is the norm in the science of climate if the data does not agree with ones conclusions either change it ,ignore it , or manipulate it to make it agree.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
April 15, 2015 8:52 am

Salvatore,
In my (long passed) working life, I have had a lot of practical experience in chemical (control) processes, thus I know something about what can and can’t be true when someone makes claims about what CO2 does in the atmosphere. Be it that my theoretical knowledge is from far in the past and completely rusty.
In no way are my conclusions been proven false, to the contrary: what Dr. Salby (and others) said is based on the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere and the variability around the increase. Both have not the slightest connection to the cause of the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere. Which proves that Dr. Salby can’t be right…
Thus please, before assuming who is right or wrong, have a better look at what the data mean…

Eliza
April 14, 2015 5:50 pm

My impression is that if WUWT continues on this path it is truly finished. The Steven Goddard Fiasco eliminated 50% of your clients. This sort of crap will eliminate the other half. You might as well allow Moshers, Daniles et al to take over (which they apparently are doing). Just look at Moshers CV on the interne, but of course you will not allow a linkt). You have really lost it. I am out of here.

Reply to  Eliza
April 15, 2015 10:02 am

Eliza, I’m not clear what you mean by “this path”, as in “if WUWT continues on this path”. As far as I can tell WUWT is on the same path as always, which is the path of providing interesting scientific articles and inviting people to comment on them. What path do you think we’re on?
As to your claim that “The Steven Goddard Fiasco eliminated 50% of your clients”, say what? WUWT didn’t lose any significant amount of readership when Steven was no longer a regular guest author. It appears you don’t have access to the blog stats, because that’s just plain wrong.
Finally, you say “just look at Moshers CV on the interne [sic], but of course you will not allow a linkt [sic])”. Say what? There are dozens and dozens of links here on WUWT, including a link to my CV.

You have really lost it. I am out of here.

Eliza, there is no need to announce your leaving as though people should care about the departure of a random anonymous internet popup. Don’t worry, you’ll be replaced very soon by someone equally featureless, folks like you are fungible.
However, there is also no reason for you to leave. Yes, you don’t like the comments on this post … but if so, let me suggest that you stay and fight for your point of view by providing facts, references, logic, math, citations, and whatever other weight you can bring to bear. Don’t just give up and walk away. Put your ideas out there and go for them.
Anyhow, as you can see, either course is fine by me. You are more than welcome to stay, and you are more than welcome to go.
w.

April 14, 2015 6:25 pm

Anyone looking for the coding of Salby’s research can ask CRU; I am sure they will provide it unless, of course, they ‘lost’ it.

April 14, 2015 8:10 pm

From Janice’ notes: (Thank you!!!) http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/04/13/new-video-dr-murry-salby-control-of-atmospheric-co2/#comment-1906063

That is: if fossil fuel use down to zero and can’t even eliminate half of CO2 increase (CO2 still increasing), what is the point?
 56:15 — Per above α analysis (Salby’s), in 2092 is the first year that human CO2 could possibly reach 50% of the total CO2 increase – Note: emissions today are irrelevant (only the preceding 1 or 2 decades’ human CO2 emissions will be relevant, i.e., 2072’s at earliest).

Unless I am missing something, this part totally confused me. Dr. Salby seems to be saying that CO2 will steadily go up regardless what we do. Is that correct? If so, here is my problem. Suppose I earn $20 a month but my bank account goes up only by $10 a month, then half must be spent. However suppose I earn $20 a month, but my bank account goes up $60 a month. Then there must be another source for the $60 and only then could it be claimed that it would not matter what I did with the $20 that I earned. Unless I missed it, where does Dr. Salby suggest the other “$60” comes from? But if the increase in the bank is less than I earn, why is it even necessary to invoke another source of income?
He did mention warming, but there was not enough continuous warming over the last 1000 years to explain the 120 ppm increase in CO2 since 1850.

richardscourtney
Reply to  Werner Brozek
April 14, 2015 11:43 pm

Werner Brozek
You ask

Unless I am missing something, this part totally confused me. Dr. Salby seems to be saying that CO2 will steadily go up regardless what we do. Is that correct? If so, here is my problem. Suppose I earn $20 a month but my bank account goes up only by $10 a month, then half must be spent. However suppose I earn $20 a month, but my bank account goes up $60 a month. Then there must be another source for the $60 and only then could it be claimed that it would not matter what I did with the $20 that I earned. Unless I missed it, where does Dr. Salby suggest the other “$60” comes from? But if the increase in the bank is less than I earn, why is it even necessary to invoke another source of income?
He did mention warming, but there was not enough continuous warming over the last 1000 years to explain the 120 ppm increase in CO2 since 1850.

Oh dear! The ridiculous mass balance argument yet again rises from the grave!
The following facts are important.
1.
Almost all the CO2 circulating in the carbon cycle is in the deep ocean.
2.
None of the total fluxes in exchanges of CO2 in the carbon cycle are quantified.
3.
A slight change of e.g. the exchanges of CO2 between deep ocean and other parts of the carbon cycle would completely swamp effect of the tiny amount of additional CO2 flux into the atmosphere from human activities.
Your ‘bank balance analogy’ is completely negated by the facts notated 1 to 3 because the analogy assumes only human activities (i.e. your income) significantly vary what goes in and out of the atmosphere (i.e. your bank): in the real world “the other “$60” comes from” variations in CO2 fluxes in the carbon cycle that are much larger than CO2 emission from human activities. The true cause of variations in ‘your bank balance’ may be factors other than your income and variations of some of the factors may negate any effects of your income by, for example, increased growth of biota (which is like an income tax rising to 100% when a threshold income is reached).
And it is an assertion and NOT a fact that “there was not enough continuous warming over the last 1000 years to explain the 120 ppm increase in CO2 since 1850”. That would only be a fact if we knew the relationship of warming to atmospheric CO2 and temperature together with all the lags of atmospheric CO2 concentration behind temperature. Henry’s Law applies to a purely chemical effect and does not apply to the Earth’s carbon cycle where the dominant exchange mechanisms and equilibrium states are determined by biota. Your assertion seems to be supported by ice core data which lack temporal resolution to indicate previous warming periods similar to the recent warming period, but your assertion is denied by stomata data.
The cause of the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration (e.g. as measured at Mauna Loa http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/ ) may be the human emission or some natural effect most probably the warming from the LIA. The irrelevant and mistaken ‘mass balance argument’ is easily refuted and it hinders determination of the true cause of the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration because its refutation could be mistaken as being a refutation of the possibility of an anthropogenic cause.
Salby argues for a dominant natural cause of the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration. Others (e.g. Engelbeen) argue for a dominant anthropogenic (i.e. human) cause. Available data favours a natural cause (as Salby says) but does NOT refute the possibility of an anthropogenic cause.
I hope this brief answer is sufficient.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 6:24 am

Thank you for your reply!
I must say that I still find the mass balance argument compelling. Yes, there are many unknowns, but the MWP showed no huge rise in CO2 1000 years ago nor did the Roman warm period 2000 years ago show huge rise. So what is different now other than a huge human contribution that was not there 1000 nor 2000 years ago? I am sure there were just as many unknowns 1000 and 2000 years ago as today.

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 6:39 am

I suggest richard, that you talk to some of the chemical engineers you worked with at Stoke Orchard about the necessity for mass balance. They will doubtless point out your errors to you.

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 7:21 am

Werner,
I know, the mass balance argument is quite rock solid, that you can’t have an extra natural source as long as the increase in the atmosphere is less than the human contribution. That seems not sufficient for some, they prefer a natural source where human emissions simply disappear in the noise…
There is one exception on that rule: if the natural cycle increased a 4-fold over the past 55 years, as human emissions and the increase in the atmosphere did and the sinks were very rapid responding, the resulting increase in the atmosphere would be the same and largely caused by the increased natural cycle.
Only there is not the slightest sign that the natural cycle increased in speed, to the contrary, the recent estimates of the residence time are slower than the older estimates…

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 10:18 pm

Phil.
No, I don’t need to speak to chemical engineers to be told I made no errors and you have not – and cannot cite – any I made.
Richard

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 10:23 pm

Ferdinand
No, the mass balance argument is silly. It assumes effects are constant when they are not, and the argument is circular; i.e. it assumes that if the anthropogenic emission over a year is greater than the total sequestration over a year then the small anthropogenic emission is the cause of the rise in atmospheric CO2 emission over a year.
An assumption that something is true is not evidence that the something is true.
Richard

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 10:38 pm

Werner Brozek
You say to me

Thank you for your reply!
I must say that I still find the mass balance argument compelling. Yes, there are many unknowns, but the MWP showed no huge rise in CO2 1000 years ago nor did the Roman warm period 2000 years ago show huge rise. So what is different now other than a huge human contribution that was not there 1000 nor 2000 years ago? I am sure there were just as many unknowns 1000 and 2000 years ago as today.

It is not known if the atmospheric CO2 increased in the RWP and the MWP as it has now. The ice core data says it did not and the stomata data says it did.
We are now months – n.b. not years – from a complete year of OCO-2 data. That will show if the suggestion of the mass balance argument is right or not. As I explain here, the preliminary OCO-2 data refutes that the anthropogenic CO2 emission overloads the sinks for CO2 over the reported month, but data from 12 months is needed to discern if this indication is true when averaged over a year.
I and some others want to know the true cause of the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration. We are willing to wait the remaining months until a year of OCO-2 data is available while others champion their opinions as to the unknown cause of the rise.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 16, 2015 2:26 am

Richard,
it assumes that if the anthropogenic emission over a year is greater than the total sequestration over a year then the small anthropogenic emission is the cause of the rise in atmospheric CO2 emission over a year.
That is not what I assume: what is measured is that the increase in the atmosphere is smaller than the small human emissions. Thus the net difference between the large sources and large sinks is smaller than the human emissions and the latter are the cause of the increase.
Further your points 1 to 3:
1. Almost all the CO2 circulating in the carbon cycle is in the deep ocean.
While true, that is completely irrelevant: not how much is circulating is important, but how much the difference is between what goes into the oceans and what comes out.
Current estimates: 3 GtC/year more sink than source in the deep oceans, 0.5 GtC/year in the ocean surface.
2. None of the total fluxes in exchanges of CO2 in the carbon cycle are quantified.
The most important fluxes are reasonably quantified, but again that is not relevant: the net result of all in/out movements is quite exactly quantified and that is ~4.5 GtC/year more sink than source.
3. A slight change… …would completely swamp effect of the tiny amount of additional CO2 flux…
Completely right, but the data don’t show such changes: maximum +/- 1 ppmv around the trend from year to year, while the trend itself is 2 ppmv/year and human emissions over 4 ppmv/year. Thus the changes in natural fluxes don’t swamp the tiny increase caused by humans. Human emissions swamp the tiny natural variability…
BTW, the next 6 weeks of OCO-2 data are available at:
http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/datareleases/First_CO2_data_from_OCO-2
Which already shows a small (seasonal) shift of CO2 releases to the NH.

richardscourtney
Reply to  Werner Brozek
April 16, 2015 4:17 am

Ferdinand
The mass balance argument DOES make the assumption you dispute: please read my post addressed to Werner.
But so what?
It is less than a year until the OCO-2 data will indicate whether the suggestion of the mistaken mass balance argument is right or wrong. I hope to be around to see those results.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 16, 2015 8:59 am

Thank you for your replies. We will see what future results show. In the meantime I will go with Occam’s razor.

William Astley
April 15, 2015 1:08 am

It appears the people who are negatively commenting on Salby’s presentation have not watched the presentation and/or do not understand his analysis and are not aware that there are multiple independent observations/analysis results that support Salby’s findings/conclusions or will continue to support the invalidate IPCC carbon source/sink model regardless of the fact that it has been invalidated. The sink time of carbon in the atmosphere is less than 8 years. I notice the people in question ignore the fact that the recent NASA satellite CO2 regional anomaly data completely supports both Humlum et al’s paper results and Salby’s analysis.
The following is a summary of Salby’s recent technical findings and their implications.
Using two independent analysis techniques: 1) Mass balance/Sink Change and 2) Phase Analysis, Salby determines an upper maximum limit of 33% as to what portion of the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 is due to anthropogenic CO2 emissions.
The analysis appears to be bullet proof and is supported by Humlum et al’s peer reviewed phase analysis results, and is completely supported by the recent data from the NASA speciality CO2 monitoring satellite. It is interesting to note that the NASA satellite data refutes the IPCC CO2 sink and source model. It is curious that there has been no official announcement or media comments, of the astonishing fact that the IPCC CO2 sink and source model has been falsified by observations.
Cult science is the name used for groups of scientist who support and continue to push theories that have been invalidated by observations. In normal science theories change or the theory in question is replaced by the correct theory when the original theory has been invalidated by observations. Normal scientists’ objectives are to solve scientific problems and are hence interested when observations invalidate the standard theory.
The following are the implications of Salby’s findings:
1. The assumed model for carbon sinks and sources not correct. There is one or more large sources of CO2 into the atmosphere that are not taken include in the standard assumed carbon source sink/model. The assumed major source of new CO2 into the biosphere is volcanic eruptions. The assumed model for carbon sinks and sources is based on the late veneer theory which postulates that a late bombardment of either comets or asteroids provided the light elements to the surface of the planet after the big splat impact which formed the moon and removed the majority of the light elements from the earth’s mantle. The competing theory (theories must compete) is the deep core CH4 theory which was brought to the Western world by the late Nobel Prize winning astrophysicist, Thomas Gold. As the core of the earth solidifies it extrudes super high pressure liquid CH4. The high pressure liquid CH4 extrude by the core as it solidifies, breaks through the mantel and moves up to the surface of the planet. As the liquid CH4 moves through the mantel is dissolves organic metals which explains the super concentrates of metals in the surface region of the crust.
Gold published a series of peer reviewed paper that support his theory and a book that The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil fuel.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Deep-Hot-Biosphere-Fossil/dp/0387952535
Gold’s book includes 50 observations to support the deep CH4 hypothesis. I have found another 20 or so from recent peer reviewed geological papers. The deep core CH4 mechanism provides the force that moves the ocean floors, explaining why the oldest ocean floor on the earth is roughly 200 million years. The super high pressure liquid CH4 concentrates metal in the crust such gold, uranium and thorium for example. The high pressure liquid CH4 breaks the mantel and hence provides a pathway for the helium that is produced from radioactive decay of uranium and thorium to move into oil reservoirs. The only source of commercial helium is oil reservoirs. This explains why helium is associated with oil reservoirs. Helium is of gaseous at all pressures and temperatures in the crust. The helium gas hence cannot travel through the mantel to be concentrated in oil reservoirs. The fact that the only super concentrations of helium gas is in oil reservoirs provides support for the assertion that the oil reservoirs were formed from super high pressure CH4 that that is extruded from the core when it solidifies.
The core CH4 theory explains why the ocean is saturated with CH4 and explains why there are sites all over the ocean floor where CH4 is constantly released and explains why there are massive deposits of methyl hydrate on the ocean floor and in the Arctic tundra.
2) The planet is about to abruptly cool due to the interruption of the solar magnetic cycle. The cooling has started different regions. There is a mechanism that is inhibiting the cooling mechanism in regional areas. The inhibiting mechanism is starting to abate. There are cycles of warming and cooling the paleo record that correlate with solar cycle changes.
3) If the planet does significantly cool we will by observations be able to determine what portion of the warming in the last 150 years was due to solar cycle changes and we will be able to determine what portion of the rise in atmospheric CO2 was due to anthropogenic CO2 emissions vs natural CO2 sources.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/20/agu14-nasas-orbiting-carbon-observatory-shows-surprising-co2-emissions-in-southern-hemisphere/
The following is additional data (NASA CO2 satellite, regional CO2 high and low anomalies) and Phase Analysis of CO2 changes by hemisphere Vs temperature. Both sets of data and analysis supports Salby’s assertion that anthropogenic CO2 has contributed less than 33% of the rise in atmospheric CO2 in the last 150 years. Salby’s analysis also confirms the half life resident time for CO2 in the atmosphere is less than 8 years. The implication of these three separate analyses is that the IPCC’s theoretical carbon sink/source model is fundamentally incorrect. The IPCC model assumes the half life resident time of CO2 in the atmosphere is around 200 years, assumes there is small net new input of CO2 from natural non anthropogenic sources, and hence assumes there is long resident time for CO2 in the atmosphere (non reversible sink rate is small). All of these IPCC CO2 model assumptions are incorrect.

The first global maps of atmospheric carbon dioxide from NASA’s new Orbiting Carbon Observatory-2 mission demonstrate its performance and promise, showing elevated carbon dioxide concentrations across the Southern Hemisphere from springtime biomass burning. At a media briefing today at the American Geophysical Union meeting in San Francisco, scientists from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California;… (William: This data completely invalidates the theory that increase in atmospheric is due to anthropogenic emissions in the Northern Hemisphere which as note supports Salby’s analysis of observed changes in atmospheric CO2 changes and CO2 sink changes. Salby’s conclusion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are contributing at most 33% of the increase in atmospheric CO2.)

The phase relation between atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperature
Summing up, our analysis suggests that changes in atmospheric CO2 appear to occur largely independently of changes in anthropogene emissions. A similar conclusion was reached by Bacastow (1976), suggesting a coupling between atmospheric CO2 and the Southern Oscillation. However, by this we have not demonstrated that CO2 released by burning fossil fuels is without influence on the amount of atmospheric CO2, but merely that the effect is small compared to the effect of other processes. Our previous analyzes suggest that such other more important effects are related to temperature, and with ocean surface temperature near or south of the Equator pointing itself out as being of special importance for changes in the global amount of atmospheric CO2.
Thus, summing up for the analysis of the NCDC data, changes in atmospheric CO2 is lagging 9.5-12 months behind changes in surface air temperatures calculated for the two main types of planetary surface, land and ocean, respectively. The strongest correlation (0.45) between atmospheric CO2 and NCDC temperature is found in relation to ocean surface air temperatures, suggesting a rather strong coupling from changes in ocean temperature to changes in atmospheric CO2.
The correlation coefficient is considerably higher (0.56) for the Southern Hemisphere than for the Northern Hemisphere (0.26), indicating the association between changes in hemispherical temperature and changes in global atmospheric CO2 to be especially strong for the Southern Hemisphere. Thus, both analyses suggest a mainly Southern Hemisphere origin of observed DIFF12 changes for atmospheric CO2.

richardscourtney
Reply to  William Astley
April 15, 2015 1:51 am

William Astley
You say

It is interesting to note that the NASA satellite data refutes the IPCC CO2 sink and source model.

It would be more correct to say,
It is interesting to note that the preliminary NASA satellite data seems to refute the IPCC CO2 sink and source model.
I commend this essay on WUWT where Ronald D Voisin considers “Three scenarios for the future of NASA’s Orbiting Carbon Observatory”.
In particular, I ask people to peruse the illustration at the link which shows ‘Average carbon dioxide concentration Oct 1 to Nov 11, 2014 from OCO-2’. The very low CO2 concentration over highly industrialised northern Europe and especially the UK contradicts the ‘overload hypothesis’ used e.g. by the IPCC to assert that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are overloading CO2 sinks and, thus, causing the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration. The low concentration in that region indicates that over the short time of the illustration the natural and anthropogenic CO2 emissions were all being sequestered local to their sites of emission. Clearly, this finding directly contradicts the ‘overload hypothesis’: however, it is for a very short time period and, therefore, the finding may be misleading.
When at least an entire year has been monitored by OCO-2 then it will be possible to observe if the anthropogenic CO2 emissions are or are not overloading the ability of the CO2 sinks to absorb them.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2015 9:54 am

Yes. Like you, I expect these observational data to overthrow most of what we thought we knew about CO2 fluxes.

Reply to  William Astley
April 15, 2015 7:25 am

William,
PLEASE don’t repeat the same litany again and again. It is far too long and with far too many items, which were already comment by me and others far up the thread…

SteveO
Reply to  William Astley
April 16, 2015 12:19 pm

Cool and completely agree, solar is the driver! Everyone is fighting over a trace gas in the PPM range, this is laughable! Salby agrees with other papers and observations that the trace gas is of little consequence. the paleo record also supports AGW is a farse as the climate cooled and warmed without humans for millennia.