Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
The 2001 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Report was the most influential in establishing global warming as a serious threat demanding political action. It contained the infamous hockey stick that Richard Muller identified as, “the poster-child of the global warming community.” However, the Report also achieved another distinction, unknown to the media, public and politicians. Disconnect between the Summary for Policymakers (SPM) and the Science Report Of Working Group I reached an extreme. Dr. Christopher Essex pointed out, in his excellent presentation for the Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF) that the 2001 Science report says,
“In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”
That statement alone disqualifies the IPCC work as the basis for public policy. If it is not enough, consider that the data used for the blade of the stick claimed it was very likely (90–99% chance) that temperature
Increased by 0.6±0.2°C over the 20th century; land areas warmed more than the oceans.
That is a ±33% error factor. Would a media outlet use results from a political poll with such an error range?
The IPCC ignored these limitations and pursued their self-assigned role.
Climate Change 2001: Synthesis Report provides a policy-relevant, but not policy-prescriptive, synthesis and integration of information contained within the Third Assessment Report and also draws upon all previously approved and accepted IPCC reports that address a broad range of key policy-relevant questions. For this reason it will be especially useful for policymakers and researchers, and as a main or supplementary student textbook for courses in environmental studies, meteorology, climatology, biology, ecology, and atmospheric chemistry.
In case the policymakers are unsure about the validity of their work, they indicate it is good enough for university textbooks. (Faint praise?)
So much of the so-called science the IPCC created was to amplify the threat of human produced CO2 to global warming. The political mandate was the ultimate arbiter of what and how an issue was included. Most people involved with the IPCC likely didn’t know what was going on. They saw funding and career opportunities, either as bureaucrats or academics. Most were graduates of the emerging “environmental science” programs and ideology with its, “humans are the problem so save the planet at all costs”, mentality. For a few, these were secondary to the real objective of using climate and CO2 specifically, as a vehicle for a political agenda. It is likely most people involved in the IPCC process never read any of the Reports, especially the SPM. If they had, why didn’t they protest about the distortions and contradictions? They easily marginalized the few that quit the IPCC because of what was going on. But then, I never heard of an IPCC person protesting the major scientific errors in Al Gore’s movie or the contradictions between their sea level claims. Apparently, this seems like an academic and bureaucratic example, of just following orders.
An early IPCC claim was that even if humans stopped all CO2 production immediately, the warming impact would continue for 100 years; the theoretical “residency time” for a CO2 molecule in the atmosphere. It was designed to increase the pressure for immediate political action. This seems like a specious point, considering the massive limitations identified by Essex, but it is more important because the public understand it. The IPCC know the public won’t understand the science, but they will recoil at the idea that the damage will last 100 years.
The IPCC based the number 100 on a “bottleneck” proposed in a 1959 paper by Bolin and Erickson. As the 2007 Working Group I Report notes,
A more sluggish ocean circulation and increased density stratification, both expected in a warmer climate, would slow down the vertical transport of carbon, alkalinity and nutrients, and the replenishment of the ocean surface with water that has not yet been in contact with anthropogenic CO2. This narrowing of the ‘bottleneck’ for anthropogenic CO2 invasion into the ocean would provide a significant positive feedback to atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations (Bolin and Eriksson, 1959).
Bolin was, with John Houghton, the first Co-Chair of the IPCC. It appears reasonable to appoint experts to the IPCC, but as the Wegman Report identified in Recommendation 1 it is unwise.
Especially when massive amounts of public monies and human lives are at stake, academic work should have a more intense level of scrutiny and review. It is especially the case that authors of policy-related documents like the IPCC report, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, should not be the same people as those that constructed the academic papers.
The 100-year claim was challenged early, as Marohasy explains.
IF carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels only stayed in the atmosphere a few years, say five years, then there may not be quite the urgency currently associated with anthropogenic global warming. Indeed, it might be argued that the problem of elevated levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide could be easily reversed as soon as alternative fuel sources where found and/or just before a tipping point was reached.
Marohasy presented a 2009 paper by Robert Essenhigh showing that the actual residency time is between 5 and 15 years. Many others have since confirmed the value at between 6 and 7 years.
IPCC Assessment Report 5 (AR5), in a section discussing “What Happens to the Carbon Dioxide After It Is Emitted Into The Atmosphere?”, says,
Before the Industrial Era, the global carbon cycle was roughly balanced. This can be inferred from ice core measurements, which show a near constant atmospheric concentration of CO2 over the last several thousand years prior to the Industrial Era.
This is false. The Ice Core plot for Antarctica shows considerable variation of approximately 150 ppm (Figure 1). But the variation is greater because a 70-year smoothing curve is applied. Compare a 2000-year period of smoothed ice core record against a stomata record (Figure 2).
Figure 1
Figure 2
Both the average atmospheric level and variability are distinctly different.
AR5 then claims,
Anthropogenic emissions of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, however, have disturbed that equilibrium.
The certainty of this statement is unwarranted because it is virtually impossible to substantiate and likely wrong because the estimates of natural production are very crude. Error of estimates for two natural sources, ground bacteria/rotting vegetation and oceans exceed human annual production. That figure is also suspect because the IPCC produce it. In the FAQ section of the 2007 Report they answer the question “How does the IPCC produce its Inventory Guidelines?” as follows.
Utilizing IPCC procedures, nominated experts from around the world draft the reports that are then extensively reviewed twice before approval by the IPCC.
Tom Quirk concludes in “Sources and Sinks of Carbon Dioxide” that
The constancy of seasonal variations in CO2 and the lack of time delays between the hemispheres suggest that fossil fuel derived CO2 is almost totally absorbed locally in the year it is emitted. This implies that natural variability of the climate is the prime cause of increasing CO2, not the emissions of CO2 from the use of fossil fuels.
Mike MacCracken, whose Ph.D., dissertation involved producing an early climate model, has been involved in the IPCC from its inception. Figure 3 shows him in a photo from the 1985 IPCC formation meeting in Villach Austria, and though retired, he continues to defend the science.
Figure 3 (“Tom” is Wigley).
In a recent email to a climate group, MacCracken invoked the “bottleneck” when he wrote,
“However, a good fraction of each year’s CO2 increment lasts for many centuries…”
In an attempt to support the “bottleneck” claim we learn this from SkepticalScience.
Dissolution of CO2 into the oceans is fast but the problem is that the top of the ocean is “getting full” and the bottleneck is thus the transfer of carbon from surface waters to the deep ocean.
There is no evidence that the surface waters are “getting full”. It is just another assumption that supports the narrative. At best we only have computer model estimates of input and output of all gases, including CO2. The general failure of the iron filings ocean seeding program to increase absorption rates indicates that we don’t know.
SkepticalScience (SS) modify the pure 100-year claim as follows.
“Individual carbon dioxide molecules have a short life time of around 5 years in the atmosphere. However, when they leave the atmosphere, they’re simply swapping places with carbon dioxide in the ocean. The final amount of extra CO2 that remains in the atmosphere stays there on a time scale of centuries.
The argument here is that it may not be the same CO2 molecule that humans produced. This replaces the initial claim that they could identify the CO2 from burning fossil fuel. It argues that in a series of “boxes” containing CO2, additions are offset by displacement of others. What a surprise! SS provides the AR4 definition.
“Turnover time (T) (also called global atmospheric lifetime) is the ratio of the mass M of a reservoir (e.g., a gaseous compound in the atmosphere) and the total rate of removal S from the reservoir: T = M / S. For each removal process, separate turnover times can be defined. In soil carbon biology, this is referred to as Mean Residence Time.”
SS interprets that as follows,
“It is true that an individual molecule of CO2 has a short residence time in the atmosphere. However, in most cases when a molecule of CO2 leaves the atmosphere it is simply swapping places with one in the ocean. Thus, the warming potential of CO2 has very little to do with the residence time of CO2.”“What really governs the warming potential is how long the extra CO2 remains in the atmosphere.”
So, it is not the human CO2 per se that causes the warming. It simply overloads the natural capacity to absorb. This assumes, incorrectly, that we know what that is, which is very unlikely with a natural range of atmospheric CO2 from ~250 to 7000 ppm over the millennia. The 2007 IPCC identifies some of the problems.
Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes (see Supplementary Material, Figure S8.14) are not well observed.
For models to simulate accurately the seasonally varying pattern of precipitation, they must correctly simulate a number of processes (e.g., evapotranspiration, condensation, transport) that are difficult to evaluate at a global scale.
It is also very likely that the current increase is entirely natural. It certainly is within the error range of any of the IPCC numbers. It also ignores the fact that in every single record of any duration for any period, temperature increases before CO2.
IPCC speculations differ depending on the objective. The macro speculations are wrong as Essex and others explain, but they are too complex for the public and by default establish scientific credibility. Some micro speculations are obscure, such as the claim that CO2 is evenly distributed, but necessary to make their computer models work. Others, like the 100-year ‘residency time’ claim, are politically necessary to support demands for immediate action. Ideally, the latter extend the threat to the children and the grandchildren.
The only ‘residence time’ of importance is how long the IPCC can stay in business and continue to push their totally discredited AGW hypothesis.
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Quite right. What is the justification for the 100 years residence time? It’s basic to the theory and never shown empirically.
A volcano or Indonesian forest fire should allow such calibration.
But we just hear about plucking fingers in the air.
I also wonder if Bolin lived in the real world where the tropics are the engine of the atmosphere with the towering Cb daily building to great heights. No ”stratification” there.
Even if the residency time is, say, five years, quoting Nick Stokes, ‘there is the time constant for the total CO2 conc to return to equilibrium after a perturbation.’
What matters is not how long individual CO2 molecule resides in the athmosphere, but how long it takes for the extra CO2 fluxes to stop influencing the CO2 content.
Look at the fluctuations over the course of a year and between hemispheres. The idea that the tiny amount of human-generated CO2 that is lost in the noise of natural variation and that can be calculated but not effectively observed could on average (a quantity that exists nowhere in the world) bump things up enough to cause runaway heating, is ludicrous.
GuarionexSandioval,
can you not realise that RT and the time it takes for the amount of extra CO2 to disappear from the athmosphere are totally different numbers? The RT is influenced by this yearly huge CO2 exchange between air and plants/sea surface. The back to ~280 ppm time – given that all else remains approximately the same – is much longer because it depends on the CO2 concentration and the total amount in upwelling and downwelling seawaters.
The sinks are different. Plants are mostly just inhaling and exhaling, so they provide a yearly sink, deep seas provide more like 1000-year storage. Come to think about it, carbon sequestering in sea would work in the sense that the carbon would be away from the athmosphere for a long time and be released gradually, if ever.
It would be OK to be skeptic on this but the thing is that the residency time is a really weak argument on its own.
The only ‘residence time’ of importance is how long the IPCC can stay in business and continue to push their totally discredited AGW hypothesis.
Agreed. To date there are still no measurements of AGW.
Strange that, after many decades of searching, by thousands of climate scientists…
CO2 residence times:
http://jennifermarohasy.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Carbon-dioxide-residence-time.jpg
[source] [another source]
Why is the IPCC so far out of step from dozens of peer reviewed papers? Do they require a long residence time to support thier ‘carbon’ narrative?
Thanks, dbstealey.
Yes, great diagram. Thank you.
Hello db,
Thanks for the very interesting plot. I hate the term, but this is a “game changer” and I would like to include it in my presentations. First, do you have a reference? Second, the studies are all rather old, do you know of anything more recent than 1990?
Cheers,
SLL
Hi steve,
The chart was posted on the C3 website. There is an email address near the top.
dbstealy,
The IPCC is talking about the excess decay time, you are talking about residence time. These two have nothing to do with each other. Even if the residence time doubled or halved, that would not change the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, as long as the CO2 inputs equal the CO2 outputs.
Only the difference between inputs and outputs does change the amounts in the atmosphere, independent of the residence time…
Ferdinand.
The problem with what you say is simple.
No matter what, the natural lag time of CO2 towards temps it means that no matter what, for as long as nature concerned, the amount of CO2 emission it does not matter , the length of time does.
According to paleo climate data the CO2 EMISSION SPIKE CAN BE OF ANY MAGNITUDE, BUT NEVER THE LESS THE NATURAL THRESHOLD IT CONSIST IN THE LENGTH OF TIME.
Whatever emission in whatever manner or cause, according to the indisputable lag time, at about 400 years average, any CO2 emission mean not much unless it continues to be beyond the ~200 years mark.
We at the moment are at a ~170 years mark, still inside the natural means and pattern, no matter what.
That is what the power of nature propagates, regardless of you or me acknowledge it or not.
It does not matter, whether we or aliens or asteroids or whatever your imagination may come up with , the nature simply says and states that it has room for any amount of co2 emissions for as long as not a continuation beyond 200-250 years continuation.
That what the lag time means, no unprecedented CO2 emissions, before the time reached for such assumption to be made, We are at about 3 decades to early to make that assumption.
According to nature, any CO2 emission up to now, no matter how intriguing it may seem to us, are still inside the natural pattern and natural tolerance, not at all unprecedented. Yes, very strange but that is how nature is.
You see the lag time of CO2 to temps is at a factor of 3-4 at the very least bigger than any time residence or whatever of CO2 in atmosphere, you can not change this, and its implication.
cheers
Whiten,
The solubility of CO2 in water is directly influenced by temperature. But the temperature of the oceans doesn’t change at once, that depends of where: the ocean surface is in rapid equilibrium with the atmosphere, both in temperature (a lag of a few months) and in CO2 levels. The deep oceans need lots of time to change their temperature: thousands of years. Thus while the earth’s surface is warming, the CO2 from the deep oceans is released many hundreds of years later and recaptured when the earth’s surface is cooling many thousands of years later.
Thus your lag time is for the natural CO2 release / uptake following a temperature change. Not the reverse.
Humans are emitting some 9 GtC/year as CO2. The net uptake by the biosphere is ~1 GtC/year, the net uptake by the ocean surface is ~0.5 GtC/year (and then is in equilibrium with the atmospheric increase) and the deep oceans do take ~3 GtC/year. The difference, some 4.5 GtC/year, remains in the atmosphere. Not the original molecules, but the quantity. There is no lag at all in the uptake, but the uptake has a limited capacity, which is currently about halve the human emissions at the 110 μatm extra CO2 pressure in the atmosphere…
The difference? Seasonal to multi-millennia processes from the pre-industrial past (and current times for seasonal to 2-3 years variations) are all temperature dependent. The current increase of CO2 and its decay rate is mainly pressure dependent and near independent of temperature…
Ferdinand Engelbeen (replying to dbstealy)
Oh come on!
This is a simple one element removal-addition problem into a single (assumed!) well-mixed pot at very, very slow rates!
The nuclear engineering calculations for neutron absorption addition (external sources), neutron generation (from fast fission internal sources) , from delayed fission (of previous neutron absorptions), from element decay against poison addition (from immediate fission sources) of up to 8 different poisons – each decaying at different rates, each being generated at different rates, each absorbing neutrons at different rates and at different places proportional to the different fluxes over time and positions, each poison changing to new poisons at different rates – has been solved since the late 1940’s.
What the bloody problem is there establishing a credible absorption/generation equations, establishing CO2 lifetime rates at each concentration, and finding acceptable removal rates and generation rates for each different year?
Do you somehow think the rates themselves are supposed to be constant over time? The rates are proportional to concentration, sizes and positions of the sources, and and sizes and positions of the sinks. These change over time. So, the rates of sinks and the rates of sources change over time.
Live with it. Determine what they are. THEN, do a half-life analysis. Don’t START with a bunch of guesses and “facts” about half-life assumptions, and then try to figure out final concentrations.
RAC,
The residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere has nothing to do with the decay rate of some extra injection of CO2 in the atmosphere.
There is a lot of exchange of CO2 molecules between the atmosphere and the other reservoirs: oceans and vegetation. That is about 20% of all CO2 in the atmosphere which is exchanged each year with CO2 from the oceans or vegetation. But still that is exchange, not removal.
We are not talking about the decay rate of the bomb tests 14C spike (which is a mix of residence time and removal rate), but about the average time that any CO2 molecule (natural or human) in the atmosphere is captured by the oceans or vegetation. That average is slightly over 5 years. That doesn’t change the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere one gram or one ton at the end of a year, if as much CO2 is coming back in one season as was captured in another season.
Your fission rates are real decay rates, for each reaction different, but the original atoms are definitively removed from the reactor. That is what the IPCC tries to tell with their Bern model: each type of CO2 sink (ocean surface, deep oceans, vegetation, rock weathering,…) has its own pressure (difference) related sink rate and saturation, which can be discussed, but that has nothing to do with the above residence time.
The point is that the Bern model can be simplified to one equation which is the sum of all individual sink rates, as the overall process looks like a simple first order process without any sign of saturation. That makes thing very easy: we know the extra CO2 pressure in the atmosphere and we know the extra uptake by nature, which results in a e-fold sink rate of ~50 years. That may change from year to year because of the fast but limited influence of temperature variability on the sink rate (which variability is only halve the human emissions), but the average sink rate didn’t change much over the past decades, despite the IPCC expectations of a saturation of the deep oceans sink. Thus no need for a year by year re-evaluation: you only are frustrating yourself with the noise around the trend…
Ferdinand Engelbeen
February 23, 2015 at 11:51 am
You say:
“Thus your lag time is for the natural CO2 release / uptake following a temperature change. Not the reverse.”
———–
Hello Ferdinand.
First is not my lag time so to speak..:-)
Is a natural lag time of CO2 emissions towards temperatures.
And actually when you closely look at it is completely the reverse of what you say. Is the “lag” that means emissions fail and do not follow temp change for a very considerable time, actually the reverse of what you suggest above. That is what lag means.
Second, it is indisputable also, from the lag and other paleo climate data, that natural tipping points of temp do happen always prior to natural CO2 tipping points, thus why and how the natural lag of CO2 possible to be observed.
Generally ignoring this leads to hypotheses like yours that put the cart in the front of the horse in a very arbitrary way without any regard to natural observations.
You see, if I am not misunderstanding you, your explanation tries to accommodate the man’s possible impact on climate by even postponing further in the future the breaking of the natural temp tipping point, far further in the future than the official AGW hypothesis have it.
What you say is in the line that even if we don’t see now any effect of man in climate we will see when these CO2 emissions coming back with a vengeance, so to speak.
But if no any problem for the climate and atmosphere to deal with this assumed “problem” without being changing in accordance with the man’s will now, why then should it be different in the future, the far away future, when CO2 surfacing again!
You see, Guy Callendar had a similar accommodation of his man’s influence in climate hypothesis by postponing both the CO2 tipping point and the temp tipping point at about 2K years in the future.
Basically still his hypothesis in its main merit simply claimed a very mild man effect and influence in climate, because it could not be otherwise when such postponing considered.
Differently from you the basics of AGW try to deal with it by associating temps with CO2 emissions, warming with CO2 emissions.
At the first stage they put the horse first, the 0.8C famous warming and then the CO2 emissions, the cart.
By claiming the 0.8 C warming as unprecedented, by default the Anthropogenic CO2 emissions become somehow considered as unprecedented.
But at the second stage in principle they default to putting the cart in front of the horse, by concluding that temp tipping point will be after the CO2 emission tipping point, otherwise that hypothesis makes no sense at all.
At the moment, apart from the plateau, the very unprecedented 0.8C warming has being shown and proven as not unprecedented at all. We have a warming which happens to be there without any change in the atmospheric processes and mechanisms, without any observable change in them to make this warming as unprecedented and not natural, and there literally is no any man’s influence or effect measurable.
That is why sometimes lately there is a push to shovel by other different angles as the one you are trying from.
Observations are one thing, hypothesis are another.
No matter how clever or good a hypothesis is, it is required that it does not contradict or jeopardize, the basic meaning of the observations.
Thanks for your reply.
cheers
Ferdinand Engelbeen @ur momisugly February 23, 2015 at 3:13 pm
“The residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere has nothing to do with the decay rate of some extra injection of CO2 in the atmosphere.”
This is not a general truth. The residence time and the decay time are not necessarily the same, but if sinks are aggressive, they necessarily converge to one another.
Sinks are very active, as is evidenced by the fact that CO2 concentration is determined by a temperature modulated process and humans have little impact. Thus, the residence time and the decay time must be fairly close to one another.
Whiten,
I don’t believe that more CO2 has much impact on temperature, but I am pretty sure that human emissions are the cause of the current increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.
The ice cores have a resolution of 10 to 600 years, but even the worst resolution ice core would detect the 110 ppmv rise in 160 years as we see today. Thus the current rise is unprecedented in the past (at least) 800,000 years. There were no excursions of more than 2 ppmv in ice cores with a resolution of 10 years over the past 150 years or a resolution of 20 years over the past 1000 years.
Thus the ~800 years lag between a natural increase of temperature and the following increase in CO2 doesn’t play any role in the current increase of CO2: the historical CO2/T ratio was 8 ppmv/°C. That can be seen in the MWP-LIA transition: ~6 ppmv drop for a ~0.8°C drop in temperature with ~50 years lag. The current temperature is probably equal to less than the MWP temperature, thus good for not more than 6 ppmv increase, lagged or not lagged, doesn’t make a lot of difference in 110 ppmv increase (while humans have emitted ~200 ppmv CO2)…
Bart,
The residence time is largely (seasonal) temperature driven while the decay rate for any excess CO2 above the dynamic equilibrium is largely pressure driven.
The CO2 fluxes over the seasons are app. 150 GtC in and out within a year for an average 1°C global temperature change be it that most of the fluxes are countercurrent with temperature. The net resulting flux is ~10 GtC as measured in the atmosphere. Despite the small net seasonal variability, the huge in/out fluxes make that the residence time for any CO2 molecule in the atmosphere is quite short: about 5 years.
Near all of this is pure exchange: what goes out mostly all comes back within the same year.
The net CO2 sink rate is about 4.5 GtC/year for 110 μatm pressure increase above equilibrium. That makes that the e-fold decay rate for any excess CO2 above the equilibrium is quite long: over 50 years.
Quite a difference in fluxes, quite a difference between residence time and decay rate…
Your theory is entirely based on the variability in rate of change, which is largely temperature driven. But the net flux in and out caused by the temperature variability is not more than +/- 2 GtC for a few tenths of a °C, or 4-5 ppmv/°C, while human emissions are ~9 GtC/year and the increase in the atmosphere is ~4.5 GtC/year. The natural variability in sink rate doesn’t prove anything about the longer term sink rates or the cause of the increase in the atmosphere, as that are completely independent processes…
This is all just assertion of how you would like things to be.
No, a “political science solution” or Realpolitik by any other name is not what is required. The “Lukewarmer” way is a scientific dead end.
What is required is to get the science right.
The question is not residence time of CO2. The question is not how much negative feedbacks reduce sensitivity to CO2 radiative forcing. Both those questions assume that there is a net atmospheric radiative GHE and play right into the alarmists hands. What many so desperately want now is the “soft landing” for the hoax.
The correct questions are –
Will adding radiative gases to the atmosphere reduce the atmosphere’s radiative cooling ability?
Will the oceans freeze without DWLWIR from the atmosphere?
Can incident LWIR slow the cooling rate of water that is free to evaporatively cool?
How hot would our oceans get without cooling by our radiatively cooled atmosphere?
Are the oceans a “near blackbody as climastrologists claim or are they really an extreme SW selective surface.
Given 1 bar pressure, is the net effect of our radiativly cooled atmosphere warming or cooling of the oceans?
What sceptics need is not a political solution, but a scientific solution. The correct answer, “AGW due to CO2 is a physical impossibility” is going to be far more effective than any other approach to end this inane hoax. Sceptics just need to grow spines and above all ask themselves why they believe CO2 causes “some” warming. Why do you believe? Which of the above “correct questions” do you not know the answer to? Why would you believe CO2 causes warming if you do not know? Why?
Thank you! Totally agree!
Konrad:
“What is required is to get the science right”.
No.
Lots of people have the science right. What is required is for the MSM to report it and the politicians to believe it and act on it.
Don’t hold your breath.
I am not holding my breath! Science will not do it, MSM will not do it, politicians will not believe such and Dr. Ball will not do it.
Only Mother Nature can do the convincing, then the politicians will start listening.
We are beginning to see that the measurements of “global annual temperature averages” are lower than model(s) predictions. We are also beginning to see that while CO2 concentration has continued to increase during the past 20 years there is no corresponding increases in temperature, as predicted by the models.
So, if Mother persists, we will be starting to calculate and plot “anomalies” (I hate this word) between actual measurements and model predictions and this will do the convincing. It will take some time. How long I don’t know but I just hope that Mother does not start cooling.
The media is suddenly waking up a bit due to Mother deciding to cool and snow over the northeast region of the USA.
Maybe people will finally decide on their own that “global annual temperature averages” have no meaning. Nobody lives in the “global region”. Mother has stimulated the people living in the northeast region of the USA. All over the news. I just hope Mother does not overreach or perhaps only a little.
Konrad, “Can incident LWIR slow the cooling rate of water that is free to evaporatively cool?
How hot would our oceans get without cooling by our radiatively cooled atmosphere?”
The answer is often in the question so you need to be more precise in your question.
First, the radiatively cooled atmosphere does not cool the ocean. The ocean cools primarily by evaporation and then by radiation. The presence of an atmosphere slows both methods of cooling, therefore the atmosphere warms the ocean.
Incident LWIR increases the rate that the oceans evaporate, and that also cools the atmosphere, via the Ideal Gas Law or Boyle’s law, through expansion.
The atmospheres contribution (except for clouds) is a net warming of the ocean. Without an atmosphere the oceans would quickly boil away and the world would be a very cold dead place.
I think an even simpler argument is that the earth’s atmosphere is not in radiative equilibruim due to convection with the result that any heating of the surface by the radiative properties of CO2 is swamped by the cooling due to moving air. A simple back of the envelope calculation gives a heat flux of 1 KW/m^2 for a parcel of air at STP that is 1 K warmer than its surroundings and moving at 1 m/s, walking speed. The convection that creates the atmospheric lapse rate is about 5 m/s.
Why is the IPCC so out of step with reality: IMHO they are not, they just have a different agenda: follow the $$’s.
Then follow the $$$’s
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/02/18/the-un-climate-end-game/
With each successive IPCC report, the disconnect between hard data, science and what’s produced as the SPM has become an even bigger joke.
https://thepointman.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/armageddon-report-no-5/
Pointman
The only ‘residence time’ of importance is how long the IPCC can stay in business and continue to push their totally discredited AGW hypothesis.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha !
Thanks, Dr. Ball.
“The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible. Rather the focus must be upon the prediction of the probability distribution of the system’s future possible states by the generation of ensembles of model solutions. Addressing adequately the statistical nature of climate is computationally intensive and requires the application of new methods of model diagnosis, but such statistical information is essential.”
I’m quoting from the IPCC – Third Assessment Report (TAR) 2001 – 14.2.2 Predictability in a Chaotic System. At http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/pdf/TAR-14.pdf
The IPCC recognized that “the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible”, but they postulated that “the focus must be upon the prediction of the probability distribution of the system’s future possible states by the generation of ensembles of model solutions”.
So, when the “ensembles of model solutions” failed to predict last century’s observed amount of global warming and the subsequent stoppage after 1998, even while using adjusted temperatures from thermometers, the IPCC models failed.
The IPCC should explain this, correct their models, apologize, and leave us alone.
The “???” guy on the left is their KGB handler.
Hilarious – but quite possibly true!
No. The mystery man on the left is Saruman disguised in modern day garb.
http://www.councilofelrond.com/albums/album13/04_Sharkey.jpg
In his February 9, 2015, presentation to the Houston Geological Society, Dr. Barry Lefer, climate scientist at the University of Houston, stated that climate represents the collective changes in rainfall, temperature, snowfall,, ice-cover, and so forth over a longer period averaging 30 years. This is a well-known standard definition.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-2-0bkJumA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
However, that definition raises some fundamental questions about global warming. The so-called warm period began around 1980 and was highlighted between 1988 and 1989 by Dr. James Hansen. The Kyoto Treaty was signed in 1992 (but not ratified by the US amongst others). IPCC reports started being released also in 1992.
If validation of climate change requires 30 years from inception, two questions can be raised:
1). Why did the Kyoto Treaty get completed 12 years after the first observation of a climate warming trend and three to four years after Dr. James Hansen first called attention to it (which is 18 years earlier than the definition of climate demands)?
2). Shouldn’t the UN IPCC have waited until thirty years (i.e. 2010) after warming trends were discovered (i.e. 1980) to begin issuing reports? (again, this 18 years earlier than the definition of climate demands)?
It appears that the Kyoto Treaty and the Pre-2010 IPCC reports may have been premature.
The Kyoto Treaty was signed in 1992 (but not ratified by the US amongst others). IPCC reports started being released also in 1992.
I don’t think so.
The Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) was adopted at the third session of the Conference of the Parties (COP 3) in Kyoto, Japan, on 11 December 1997. In accordance with Article 24, it was open for signature from 16 March 1998 to 15 March 1999 at United Nations Headquarters, New York. By that date the Protocol had received 84 signatures.
http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/status_of_ratification/items/2613.php
Fair suck of the sauce bottle guys. The head of the IPCC is very busy with investigations at this very minute and naturally can’t take everyone’s calls-
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/02/22/india-sexualharassment-pachauri-idINKBN0LQ04720150222
OH how the mighty fall…one by one…we just have to wait.
Dr. Ball: Best use of the term “residence time” evah! “…The only ‘residence time’ of importance is how long the IPCC can stay in business and continue to push their totally discredited AGW hypothesis….” One fervently hopes that a Republican administration elected in 2016 will cut ALL funding to – at least – this part of the UN (all would suit me). And, completely revise the way science is funded in the US. Time to pull the plug on the scam and the scammers. If some can be sent to prison, all the better.
How is it possible that their proposed “bottleneck” is able to slow the transfer of carbon dioxide from surface waters to the deep ocean and speed up the transfer of heat to the deep oceans at the same time? That sure seems like a contradiction to me. Wouldn’t “a more sluggish ocean circulation and increased density stratification” slow the transfer of everything from the surface to the deep ocean, including heat?
You peeked behind the curtain. The residence time of CO2 was experimentally verified with the Carbon-14 radioactive tracers injected into the atmosphere from the atomic testing in the 1950s and 60s. You have posited that Carbon Sin® is capable of speeding up ocean circulation for sequestering heat and at the same time is capable of slowing down ocean circulation to make IPCC CO2 residence time pencil out. The explanation for two mutually exclusive events existing at the same time was experimentally verified some years ago with a cat. Technical details are here:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/113/the-story-of-schroedingers-cat-an-epic-poem
Neil, the 2nd poem you linked to has the following line:
“The act of observing disturbs the observed”
Is that why climate scientists prefer models to actual observations? Perhaps the very act of collecting and observing temperature data is disturbing the climate. It may be that if we stopped collecting weather data and trusted the models explicitly, the climate would begin to match the models’ predictions. But then we would never be able to know for sure. 🙂
I have a feeling that alarmists would be very happy with such an arrangement. They have already made it clear that there’s no longer room in science for the falsification of popular theories, especially if the popularity can be claimed to approach 97%.
Responding from the standpoint of climate being aggregate weather, the quantum phenomena in the ballad refer to the unimaginably small, not something as “large” as weather. I would like to think that a climate scientist would never say that waving a thermometer would disturb a hurricane or corking up the connection in a stilling well would change sea level. But then again, when I read that climate scientists believe models create latent sea level out of nothing, nothing surprises me.
Don’t you know what a ‘hot carbon molecule’ can do. Get with the program.
Kudos Dr. Ball. It is very clear that a temperature modulated process is the primary driver of CO2 in the atmosphere. Human inputs are not temperature dependent, hence they are not the driver.
There is no doubt about it. Cue Ferdinand in 3, 2, 1…
I have not (myself) seen any Really Good Examination of whether or not the current rise in the CO2 level is caused by temperatures rising 800 years ago, and the CO2 is mostly coming out of the oceans. It is mentioned from time to time but how do we know conclusively it is not from the MWP?
– Crispin, in frigging cold Waterloo where schools are open today because the wind chill is only -34C
Could be. It falls under the heading of transport phenomena. There could be all sorts of bubbles and echoes and dispersions along the path. And, we are only just beginning to understand the processes it goes through in the depths
http://oceans.mit.edu/featured-stories/solving-carbon-mysteries-deep-ocean-2
Crispin, if the upwelling waters were from the Medieval times and the Medieval period was warmer than today, the downwelling waters would be slightly higher in CO2 than today (according to the solubility of CO2 in seawater about 8 μatm more pCO2 at downwelling), assuming that the sinking waters near the ice edge of the polar ice still were as cold as today (and didn’t warm up with the rest of the surface).
Further assuming no/little mixing with the rest of the deep oceans, the upwelling waters thus may have 8 μatm more CO2 pressure when released at the atmosphere.
With 4 ppmv increase of CO2 in the atmosphere, the extra influx at the upwelling zone is halved and the outflux at the sink zone is increased with the other halve. Thus with halve the influence of the extra CO2 in the atmosphere in Medieval times, the modern times have restored the (dynamic) equilibrium, be it at a higher throughput (and thus shorter residence time).
But there is no shortening of the residence time observed:
If you take the residence time estimates of dbstealy and sort them in two groups on date of publication, the oldest group has in average a shorter residence time than the youngest group. That points to a rather stable throughput in an increasing amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Something that refutes the theory of Bart and others about more CO2 upwelling…
No, Ferdinand. It is a symmetric process. The upwelling CO2 necessarily would diffuse into the surface waters, and they would increase in pCO2 until they matched the pCO2 of that era. For comparable temperatures, the pCO2 of the atmosphere would also increase to the level of that era.
Bart,
You still don’t rake into account that besides ocean CO2 sources, there are ocean CO2 sinks too. If the ocean upwelling waters have increased their CO2 content or the temperature increased at the surface, that leads to an initial increase in influx, which increases the CO2 in the atmosphere. If there were no sinks, the atmospheric pCO2 would increase to a new equilibrium with the upwelling waters, thus a pCO2 increase equal to the pCO2 increase of the upwelling waters.
But there are ocean sinks which equally react to changes of pCO2 in the atmosphere: any increase of pCO2(atm) increases the outflux. The net result is that any disturbance of any influx (oceans, vegetation, volcanoes…) is met with a halving of the influence in pCO2 and an increase or decrease of the fluxes back to a dynamical equilibrium between influxes and outfluxes, be it that may cost a lot of years…
Nonsense. It is a symmetric situation. What held then, still holds now.
What appears to be left out of the discussion on the ocean-atmosphere exchange of CO2 is that of the ocean biota, from phytoplankton and corals to crustaceans who consume large quantities of the dissolved ocean carbon from the CO2 as food. Trying to calculate how much is nigh impossible, but if half the calculated annual CO2 produced by humans and terrestrial creatures is consumed by surface vegetation and ocean creatures (add sea-weeds and the like) then the calculations of CO2 exchange and life times is meaningless.
If one adds volcanic sources of CO2, as shown to exist in the CO2 satellite data one can see that the planet is coping very well.
Another thought, could not geothermal heat be also warming the ocean bottoms, rather than being of hidden ‘solar’ origin?
I should perhaps add a post script – I know there is plenty of carbon in the ocean to start with but it is being consumed and being replaced, without a ‘bottleneck’ slowing the process.
The oceanic crust is around the same thickness as ocean water, namely 5 km, whereas continental crust is generally around 20-40 km thick. One of the main sensations of descending 1-2 km underground in a mine is the heat and the 4km deep gold mines in South Africa use refrigeration to cool rocks sufficiently to enable temporary access to miners. This heat is not solar but clearly derived from Earths’ mantle.
Have there been any comprehensive studies of the temperature of the Pacific, Indian, Atlantic, Southern and Arctic ocean floors away from the mid-ocean ridges where very high temperatures prevail? Has anyone counted the number of submarine volcanic vents in the oceans which cover some 70% of Earth’s surface? Submarine volcanic eruption can exceed 100 cubic kilometers but little is known about them: very much a case of out-of-sight and out-of-mind.
In all of human history, nobody has ever penetrated the Moho with a drill hole and why not? There is talk of sending humans to Mars but not even a peep about a much less challenging technical effort to test the Moho which separate our oceanic and continental crust from the hot mantle.
I love this site because I learn things. I’d never heard of the Moho so thank you, BB.
Bohdan,
That is now actually asking for a revolution in Climatology. 🙂
Bohdan, trust me no one wants that..:-)
cheers
Residency time is the biggest fraud in the whole greenhouse concept. It is also contradicted in the statement that “a molecule of CO2 is simply swapped with one in the Ocean”. That statement is true, but it invalidates the whole basis for greenhouse calculation. If it is accepted that the ratio of molecules in the atmoshere is what is important rather than how long each individual molecule remains there, then water vapour is once again 6 times more absorbent than CO2 and in 20 times the quantity in the atmosphere. Which makes the entire greenhouse component of CO2 less than 1% of the 33C claimed effect.
It also makes a mockery of the concept of “super greehouse gasses” such as hydrofluorocarbons. The whole notion of any trace gass being 10,000 plus times more “greenhousy” should have been labeled absurd long ago anyway!
wickedwenchfan, this is not a quibble, I just checked to see what the numbers are.
At sea level H2O in the atmosphere is about 10,000 ppm, and overall in the atmosphere, it is 4000 ppm.
I think the ‘6 times’ is a reasonable number for relative forcing H2O : CO2.
4000/400 x 6 = 60 times the GHG effect, water vapour relative to CO2.
I can’t trace the ‘1%’ source number but it would have to consider CFC’s and methane and black carbon particles and so on. 1% seems high as a fraction of the whole. Given that BC is about 3 times the effect of CO2, it is a small value.
With the theoretical atmospheres of CO2 always showing a large temperature effect from the first 20 ppm, it pays to remember that that is in an atmosphere without water vapour – not a real example, in other words. Without any CO2 at all and no GHG’s except water on a frozen planet, there would still be sublimation of the ice to create water vapour in the atmosphere – lots of it. That means there is a lower limit on the temperature of the earth in the ‘absence of an atmosphere’ because no matter what, there would always be an atmosphere of water vapour and it is a heck of a good green house gas. Adding a little CO2 to a saturated absorption band isn’t going to add much.
No wonder the CO2 is rising so quickly and the temperature isn’t responding at all. I think I need to find out what the temperature would be without any CO2 at all, just the rest. what is the equilibrium concentration of water vapour on snowball earth? Maybe that can’t be answered before finding out why there was a snowball in the first place. Because later there wasn’t.
You blokes are a mob of wimps. The latest Royal Society and National Academy of Science report states that we could stop all human Co2 emissions today and there wouldn’t be a reduction in co2 levels or temp for thousands of years. See point 20 here—
https://royalsociety.org/policy/projects/climate-evidence-causes/question-20/ And Kevin Trenberth is listed as one of the scientists writing this report. So PLEASE EXPLAIN? I mean claiming 5 years or 20 years or 100 years proves you’re just dipping your toe into this mystery. SARC.
Neville, as you may notice further on, I do disagree with Dr. Ball on a lot of points, as he confuses residence time and excess decay rates. But that doesn’t imply that the IPCC is right with their “thousands of years”. The current half life time for the extra CO2 in the atmosphere is ~40 years. That is measured. There is no measurable increase in decay rate over the past near 20 years, even a slight decrease. That means that the current 110 ppmv extra will get 55 ppmv after 40 years, 28 ppmv after 80 years, 14 ppmv after 120 years,… after ceasing all emissions.
The long decay rates of the IPCC are based on a saturation of the deep ocean sinks, for which is not the slightest indication. One can calculate the distribution of all human emissions over the past 160 years (about 370 GtC) into the deep oceans (about 37000 GtC). When that is again in equilibrium with the atmosphere, the residual increase of CO2 in the atmosphere gets 1% or about 3 ppmv…
Measured by whom, where, how and when? At least in physics, chemistry and biology:
1) ‘Half-life’ and ‘decay’ don’t mean the same.
2) Was this measured with a scintillator, a mass spectrometer, over a petridish or somehow differently?
3) What was the sample size and duration of the study/studies?
4) How were the results treated to establish the conclusion?
Modern scientific method and metrology respecting disciplines define study scope and design protocols to reduce measurement errors due to (un)known and/or (un)controllable variables. Surely meteorology and climatology don’t make an exception to this, right?
Any attempt to calculate the residency time of CO2 in the atmosphere is akin to one attempting to calculate the residency time of the daily commuters passing through Grand Central Station, NYC.
Jaakko, simple math will do.
Based on ice cores and ocean chemistry (both in laboratories and direct measurements in the oceans), the equilibrium CO2 level between oceans and atmosphere for the current equilibrium would be around 290 ppmv.
We are currently at around 400 ppmv in the atmosphere. That is 110 ppmv above equilibrium. The past 55 years of accurate CO2 measurements and reasonable accurate estimates from human emissions show that the net sink rate by nature is quite linear in ratio to the extra CO2 pressure in the atmosphere.
Even when a lot of the underlying processes may be highly non-linear, the earth as a whole reacts like a simple first order process for the ratio between CO2 and temperature.
For a linear process, the e-fold decay rate is initial excess / removal. Both are known and the e-fold rate didn’t change much in the past decades, see:
http://www.john-daly.com/carbon.htm
Sorry, third line should read “for the current temperature” not “for the current equilibrium”.
The latest Royal Society and National Academy of Science report states that we could stop all human Co2 emissions today and there wouldn’t be a reduction in co2 levels or temp for thousands of years.
As anyone who reads that link will see you have ‘misquoted’ them and you are completely wrong.
Phil read their quote again. Here’s some of it, now tell me where I’m wrong?
“20. If emissions of greenhouse gases were stopped, would the climate return to the conditions of 200 years ago?
No. Even if emissions of greenhouse gases were to suddenly stop, Earth’s surface temperature would not cool and return to the level in the pre-industrial era for thousands of years.
fig9-small
Figure 9. If global emissions were to suddenly stop, it would take a long time for surface air temperatures and the ocean to begin to cool, because the excess CO2 in the atmosphere would remain there for a long time and would continue to exert a warming effect. Model projections show how atmospheric CO2 concentration (a), surface air temperature (b), and ocean thermal expansion (c) would respond following a scenario of business-as-usual emissions ceasing in 2300 (red), a scenario of aggressive emission reductions, falling close to zero 50 years from now (orange), and two intermediate emissions scenarios (green and blue). The small downward tick in temperature at 2300 is caused by the elimination of emissions of short-lived greenhouse gases, including methane. Source: Zickfeld et al., 2013 (larger version)
If emissions of CO2 stopped altogether, it would take many thousands of years for atmospheric CO2 to return to ‘pre-industrial’ levels due to its very slow transfer to the deep ocean and ultimate burial in ocean sediments. Surface temperatures would stay elevated for at least a thousand years, implying extremely long-term commitment to a warmer planet due to past and current emissions, and sea level would likely continue to rise for many centuries even after temperature stopped increasing (see Figure 9). Significant cooling would be required to reverse melting of glaciers and the Greenland ice sheet, which formed during past cold climates. The current CO2-induced “
Neville,
The “thousands of years” is based on the Bern model, which implies a slowdown of the deep ocean sinks, which is mainly by the THC (thermohaline circulation) which sinks the cold, salty waters of the NE Atlantic and return them to the surface many centuries later in the equatorial Pacific.
But there is not the slightest indication that the THC or the sink rate in general is decreasing. To the contrary, there is a slight increase in sink rate as vegetation turned from a slight source of CO2 (before 1990) to a slight sink since then.
The calculated half life time from the current excess amount of CO2 is ~40 years. That means that after stopping all emissions, the 110 ppmv extra would be 55 ppmv after 40 years, 28 ppmv after 80 years, 14 ppmv after 120 years,… Without any sign of slowdown.
Ultimately, a new equilibrium between deep ocean CO2 and atmospheric CO2 would be reached at a 1% higher level in the deep oceans and the atmosphere for all human CO2 emissions up to date: 3 ppmv higher than pre-industrial. That is all…
Here’s a list of the scientists who contributed to the joint RS and NAS report. See Trenberth , Solomon, Santer etc. https://royalsociety.org/policy/projects/climate-evidence-causes/contributors/
Trenberth was the scientist who proclaimed a few years ago that the severe cyclones would increase in strength due to “global warming”. In reality the number and total strength (areas*wind speed*duration) halved in the past years…
Not a very good track record of predictions…
Solomon was one of the authors of the ozone hole – CFC link, but there is something wrong with the proposed chemistry (too slow to explain the hole)…
DUH, something that has been there forever ….. doesn’t require a new explanation.
Especially given the fact that said “hole” once encompassed the entire atmosphere surrounding the earth.
It is a sad thing that what was once called Climatology, a discipline of applied physics, is now Climate Science, a discipline of Creationism — the Young Earth — Man created the Earth, Atmosphere, Sun, Galaxy and all therein — Man at the Center of Creation — The Anthropocene, a religion.
Separation of Church and State should prevent the US government from funding pro-AGW climate scientology.
I am amazed at the ability of IPCC to come to a consensus on the present state of scientific knowledge or opinion on climate change .
I have just looked up the number of journals relevant to climate change and modelling from the book “Climate Change Modelling Primer” (McGuffie and Henderson – Sellers) to get some idea of the most prominent journals . At least 12 are listed in the bibliography and I am sure there are more . Given , say , 12 issues a year , 30 papers per issue , and allowing 7 years since the IPCC 2007 , then that is at least 30,000 papers of which , 20%? are relevant to GHG , climate change and modelling . So 6000 papers to be analysed for Paris 2015.
You have all seen how detailed those papers can be , and how much controversy each can arouse on this site , so how did the IPCC committee organise their deliberations and arrive at a summary?
Perhaps the deliberations next time could be televised for a global audience , since they in the end will be paying for the exercise and its proposed actions. Who could object to that?
PS . As an illustration of the magnitude of the task , take a “much commented” article from Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics” ( an open access journal) , a review of of recent advances in understanding sea ice change by Doscher et al
:http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/14/13571/2014/acp-14-13571-2014.pdf
This is 30 pages of densely argued observations and theory . Perhaps persons of distinction of the IPCC committee like Mann and Jones can speed read it , extract the essentials and convey them to the rest around the table before their coffee gets cold , but I think that many would take much longer to digest and debate just this one paper . – and there may be thousands more to get through .
mikewaite
Nah.
Of the 30 pages, the last 9 were a list of references. So you only have to read the first 21. And the abstract and conclusion repeat them selves, so you can ignore page 21 as well. (And I had already read most of the references (or their abstracts, or their summaries elsewhere), so I didn’t have to download all of those.) Regardless, I started reading it at 11:15, and finished at 11:34. But that did include two stops to refill my coffee cup, so others may be a bit faster.
Now, I did find 32 specific technical points or measurements or “extrapolations” where I disagreed with with the broad strokes of the writers in either detail or implications. Writing those disagreements up would take several good evening’s work.
Thank you for the paper. Three good details were found that I need to look into further: Winds (atmospheric movement of heat) from the Arctic LAND onto the Arctic ice surface (from 60-70 north (land surfaces newly-greened by today’s CO2 levels) to 70-80 north (the Arctic sea ice areas) were responsible for most of the Arctic’s heat balance.
Their cloud feedback (LW, SW, albedo feedback) was interesting – but incomplete as well.
The water circulation changes and background data was useful. I’ve got to think about the reported changes in sea ice movement.
Overall. Simplistic, incomplete, misleading. Exaggerated.
When you read the details of the internal paragraphs, negative feedbacks and uncertainly dominate every projection of the arctic into the future. But these were, of course, ignored in the conclusions and abstract – as usual.
There were no new experiments reported that were useful. Nice comparison of the traces of the only two ships reported which drifted across the Arctic sea ice.
Cloud and albedo changes and feedbacks contradicted what the Antarctic writers report for the same conditions of sea ice and open water: Open water gets much more cloud coverage than sea ice, clouds over sea ice increase the albedo of sea ice significantly, melt ponds albedo at low solar elevation angles in the artic mean there is almost NO “excess” heat energy absorbed at low sun angles, increased LW heat loss from the open ocean as mentioned in one sentence, but increased evaporation, convection, and conduction losses from the open ocean are ignored.
Bottom line?
The Royal Society in December 2014 contradicted the entire “message” of this paper (no doubt prepared specifically for the 2015 Paris CAGE conference to force economic disaster on the world) when it concluded that there is no year-to-year “feedback” of Arctic sea ice fromone melt season to the next year’s sea ice area.
There were no surprises in LW or SW calc’s. The sea ice albedo calc’s were incomplete and misleading – as you would expect. Arctic amplification due to the melting sea ice was repeated some 16 times, but never calculated.
Massive (25% to 35%) increases in Antarctic sea ice expansion since 1992 was ignored. As you would expect.
Dr. Ball,
We have been there before, but there are so many errors in what you wrote that I even don’t know where to begin…
To have a head start: the residence time has nothing to do with the decay time for an excess injection of CO2 in the atmosphere.
The formula for residence time is:
Amount in the atmosphere / throughput (or input or output):
800 GtC / 150 GtC/year = ~5 years
The formula for e-fold decay time is:
Surplus above equilibrium / net sink rate:
110 ppmv / 2.15 ppmv/year = ~51 years or a half life time of ~40 years.
It is the same difference as between the turnover of capital in a factory or bank and the gain or loss of that capital or bank at the end of the year. Very little to nothing to do with each other. Even if the turnover triples or halves, that can give more gain or more loss or even turn a loss in a gain or reverse…
That doesn’t mean that the IPCC is right: the very long decay rates are based on the Bern model, which implies a saturation of the sinks into the deep oceans, for which is not the slightest indication and there is no saturation of plant growth at all: more CO2 in the atmosphere gives more uptake by plants. But using the residence time by skeptics to “prove” that any extra CO2 is fast captured is equally wrong.
Then the ice core CO2 levels and variability against stomata data; ice cores show the real, global CO2 level averaged over the resolution time. The resolution time depends of the snow accumulation rate at the site where the core is drilled. The resolution varies from less than a decade for the past 150 years (Law Dome, coastal) to 600 years for the past 42,000 years (Vostok, high altitude inland) and 560 years for the past 800,000 years (Dome C, high altitude inland). Thus the CO2 data are averaged, but that doesn’t change the average over the period of resolution.
Stomata data are proxies derived from plants growing over land in an atmosphere with highly variable CO2 levels. That gives a local bias which can be calibrated over the past century against direct measurements and ice cores. But there is not the slightest guarantee that the local bias didn’t change over the centuries. Thus the higher local variability may give an indication of more global variability, but if the average CO2 level over the resolution period of the ice cores differs, then the stomata data are certainly wrong.
Then the estimates of natural CO2 production: that has very little to do with the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere per year:
Increase in the atmosphere = human emissions + natural emissions – natural sinks
4.5 GtC = 9 GtC + X GtC – Y GtC
Increase in the atmosphere/year = 9 GtC – 4.5 GtC = 4.5 GtC
No matter what X and Y were or how much any individual natural influx or outflux of CO2 changed in any year.
I know Bart doesn’t agree, as a theoretical 4-fold increase in natural circulation and a very fast reaction of the sinks could have the same effect, but there is not the slightest indication that the residence time decreased a 4-fold over time (as would be the case if the throughput increased), to the contrary.
Of course there is some natural variability in the sink rate, but that is quite modest: about half the current human emissions:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/dco2_em2.jpg
note that it is a variability in net natural sink rate, not source rate!
Then Tom Quirk: the lack of time delays between the hemispheres
Tom Quirk used a method to detect “delays” which doesn’t make a difference between 12 months, 24 months, 36 months leads or lags… If you plot the yearly averages of CO2:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/co2_trends_1995_2004.jpg
and δ13C:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/d13c_trends.jpg
It is very clear that there is an extra source of low-13C in the NH. As the biosphere is a net sink for low-13C CO2, that is not the cause of the δ13C decline. Human emissions are for 90% in the NH…
Then There is no evidence that the surface waters are “getting full”.
Sorry Dr. Ball, if you had even the slightest notice of carbonate chemistry, you should know that the oceans are a buffer for CO2, but every buffer can get saturated. The saturation of slightly basic ocean water is about 10 times higher than for fresh water, but still any change in the ocean surface waters is only 10% of the change in the atmosphere: 100% increase in the atmosphere gives a 100% increase of free CO2 in the oceans (per Henry’s law), but free CO2 is only 1% of all CO2 in the ocean surface, the rest are bicarbonates and carbonates. The total increase thus is 10% after all equilibrium reactions are settled. That is the Revelle/buffer factor.
The Revelle factor is measured at a lot of ocean surface places. So is the increase of total inorganic carbon (DIC).
It is also very likely that the current increase is entirely natural.
And the extra CO2 caused by human emissions just disappears in space? Sorry, but no carbon can be destroyed or made from nothing (at least not chemically). If humans emit twice the increase in the atmosphere, the natural cause must have increased a fourfold in the past 55 years, completely in lockstep with human emissions. You may believe that, but I think that is just wishful thinking…
Many thanks for providing a needed sanity check.
I assume that you have expanded on most of that comment in your series of which this is the fourth installment. I commend it to the attention of all. Without having re-read all of it, I don’t recall your having explained the following.
“Stomata data are proxies derived from plants growing over land in an atmosphere with highly variable CO2 levels. That gives a local bias which can be calibrated over the past century against direct measurements and ice cores. But there is not the slightest guarantee that the local bias didn’t change over the centuries. Thus the higher local variability may give an indication of more global variability, but if the average CO2 level over the resolution period of the ice cores differs, then the stomata data are certainly wrong.”
As to that I believe my fellow lurkers would find a further explanation here.
I for one greatly appreciate the patience with which you respond when the rest of us get in over our heads.
Joe Born, thanks for you comment…
The main problem for stomata data is that the local CO2 levels can change over time, depending of land use changes over the centuries in the main wind direction. One of the main spots used for stomata data in The Netherlands has seen a tremendous change in landscape over the centuries: sea and marches, polders, agriculture, then forests (for the coal mines), industry and traffic all in the past 1000 years. Even the main wind direction may have changed over the centuries, e.g. between the MWP and the LIA and back to the current warm period…
Have a look at the monthly averaged data from Giessen (SW Germany), semi rural, where there is a continuous sampling of CO2, compared to Mauna Loa (Antarctica has even less seasonal variability):
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/giessen_mlo_monthly.jpg
The number of stomata are formed in the new leaves based on the average CO2 level over the previous growing season (according to Tom van Hoof, stomata specialist in The Netherlands).
Thus while stomata data have a better resolution than ice cores, their variability and especially the absolute levels should be taken with a grain of salt…
Thank you for your response, and sorry I caused it; I had intended by somehow failed to include this link to a previous occasion in which you had addressed that issue.
But, then, you’re accustomed to being forced to repeat yourself.
Thanks again.
Ferdinand Engelbeen February 23, 2015 at 9:37 am
Unless you can present a ….. Stomata Proxy Count for the same exact locale and the same exact 160 months since 1.1995 ….. that is plotted on the above cited graph of CO2 ……. then your above commentary on this subject is highly questionable to say the least.
Prove your claim that …… “stomata numbers ‘track’ the average CO2 level over the previous 160 months growing seasons”.
Iffen Tom van Hoof produced such a “160 month stomata-CO2” graph then present it for our inspection.
Samuel,
Here the calibration curve for oak leaves from St. Odiliënberg, South Netherlands, not the same place as Giessen (Germany) but quite similar semi-rural:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/stomata.jpg
That shows the troubles with stomata data: if you measure a stomata index of 7%, the CO2 levels can be between 320-360 ppmv, or reverse: if the real average was around 320 ppmv, the stomata index is between 7% and 11%, or near the full calibration scale. That is for the period of calibration (the CO2 levels are from high resolution ice cores, firn and direct measurements). What about outside the calibration period?
Compare that with the repeatability of ice core measurements for the same part of the core: 1.2 ppmv (1 sigma) or maximum 5 ppmv for different ice cores for the same average gas age for ice cores with extreme differences in temperature and accumulation rate…
So you just proved that Tom van Hoof is a “junk biologists”, right?
And what does that say about you?
Samuel,
I think that one isn’t a junk scientist because he believes in one or another proxy. The point is that every method that tries to reproduce the past has its own strengths and weaknesses.
For ice cores, the accuracy and reproducibility are excellent, but the resolution is average to poor.
For stomata data, the accuracy and reproducibility are poor, but the resolution is excellent to good.
Thus if the stomata data are recalibrated for the past periods against ice cores over the same period, they may give more insight in the local variability of CO2 levels. But still local variability, not necessary global variability…
What says that about me? Nothing, besides that I try to filter out what is reasonable and what not…
When I was a pup, you couldn’t get any kind of science degree without at least some chemistry. Ferdinand’s statement is no better than a gratuitous insult and thus merits no respect.
Either the bicarbonates and carbonates don’t matter or Ferdinand has to explain why they do. Why, for instance, does a bottle of soda stay fizzy forever. (The free CO2 doesn’t magically transform into carbonates and bicarbonates in the bottle.)
Commiebob, I have a B.Sc. degree in chemistry. Even if I was never involved in ocean chemistry and most of my analytical chemistry knowledge is from many years ago, that still is sufficient to know that the oceans are a weak buffer for CO2 and that the surface is in fast equilibrium with the atmosphere, as the exchange rate between atmosphere and ocean surface (the “mixed” layer) is quite rapid (less than a year half life time).
CO2 in water reacts to form carbonic acid, that is in equilibrium with bicarbonate ions + hydrogen ions and that is in equilibrium with carbonate ions and again hydrogen ions. The equilibrium between the three forms of carbon (free CO2 and carbonic acid lumped together) thus depends of the H+ concentration, the pH.
The solubility of CO2 in fresh water at 0.0004 bar pressure in the atmosphere is a few mg/l. In fresh water, 99% is free CO2/carbonic acid, 1% is bicarbonate, virtually no carbonate. The pH is slightly acid.
The solubility of CO2 in seawater is about 10 times higher, as part of the CO2 is moving into bicarbonates and carbonates: only 1% still is free CO2, 90% is bicarbonate and 9% is carbonate. The pH is slightly alkaline.
Your soda is saturated with 6-7 bar of CO2 to push a few grams of CO2 into the soda, that is over 10,000 times the atmospheric pressure of CO2… Again it is near all free CO2, especially for fruit drinks where stronger acids (citric acid) or cola’s where a very strong acid (phosphoric acid) is added.
Thus it is the pH which gives the distribution between CO2, bicarbonates and carbonates in water. Does that matter for the saturation? Yes, if CO2 increases in the atmosphere, the solubility of CO2 in fresh water simply follows the atmosphere, but still is minimal. For the ocean surface, the solubility of CO2 is a lot higher, but stops at a 10% change in total carbon (CO2 + bicarbonate + carbonate), compared to the atmosphere.
See further the Bjerrum plot, which gives the relative ratio between the carbon species in water, depending of the pH:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjerrum_plot
Some more chemistry about CO2 in seawater:
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/courses/OCN623/Spring2012/CO2pH.pdf
and if you like, here the equations behind the Revelle/buffer factor of seawater:
http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/staff/gpk/Teaching-undergrad/es427/Exam%200405%20Revision/Ocean-chemistry.pdf
Which one (1) of the following years/decades was the aforesaid “atmospheric CO2 equilibrium” determined ….. and who authorized the making of that “choice”?
year ——————— CO2 ppm – % increase — increase/decade year
Decade end 1940 – ____ 300 ppm est.
Decade end 1950 – ____ 310 ppm – 3.3% (avg 1.0 ppm/year)
Decade end 1960 – ____ 316 ppm – 1.9% (avg 0.6 ppm/year)
Decade end 1970 – ____ 325 ppm – 2.8% (avg 0.9 ppm/year)
Decade end 1980 – ____ 338 ppm – 4.0% (avg 1.3 ppm/year)
Decade end 1990 – ____ 354 ppm – 4.7% (avg 1.6 ppm/year)
Decade end 2000 – ____ 369 ppm – 4.2% (avg 1.5 ppm/year)
Decade end 2010 – ____ 389 ppm – 5.4% (avg 2.0 ppm/year)
Year end _ 2014 – ____ 398 ppm – 2.3% (avg 2.2 ppm/year)
Total 64 years – +98 ppm – 32.7% (avg 1.5 ppm/year)
Is science fiction better than no fiction?
The equilibrium between CO2 and temperature over the past 800,000 years didn’t change much: about 8 ppmv/K. For the current average temperature, the equilibrium is about 290 ppmv in the atmosphere. That can be measured in laboratories and direct measurements in the oceans…
It would be useful to overlay decadal manmade CO2 emissions. That would show that the change in CO2 levels does not statistically correlate with manmade emissions pf CO2.
Richard, see here:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/acc_co2_1900_cur.jpg
If you look at the rate of change per year, or even per decade, you are correlating a lot of noise caused by temperature variations. But that are temperature driven processes in (mainly tropical) vegetation, while the up going trend is not from vegetation, as vegetation is a net, increasing absorber of CO2 over the past decades. In this case, correlation is of the cause of the variability, not of the cause of the trend…
@ur momisugly richard verney February 23, 2015 at 10:27 pm
Richard, given these factual statistics, to wit:
Increases in World Population & Atmospheric CO2 by Decade
year — world popul. – % incr. — Dec CO2 ppm – % incr. — avg increase/year
1940 – 2,300,000,000 est. ___ ____ 300 ppm est.
1950 – 2,556,000,053 – 11.1% ____ 310 ppm – 3.3% —— 1.0 ppm/year
1960 – 3,039,451,023 – 18.9% ____ 316 ppm – 1.9% —— 0.6 ppm/year
1970 – 3,706,618,163 – 21.9% ____ 325 ppm – 2.8% —— 0.9 ppm/year
1980 – 4,453,831,714 – 20.1% ____ 338 ppm – 4.0% —– 1.3 ppm/year
1990 – 5,278,639,789 – 18.5% ____ 354 ppm – 4.7% —– 1.6 ppm/year
2000 – 6,082,966,429 – 15.2% ____ 369 ppm – 4.2% —– 1.5 ppm/year
2010 – 6,809,972,000 – 11.9% ____ 389 ppm – 5.4% —– 2.0 ppm/year
2012 – 7,057,075,000 – 3.62% ____ 394 ppm – 1.3% —– 2.5 ppm/year
Based on the above statistics, to wit:
Fact #1 – In 70 years – world population increased 207% – CO2 increased 31.3%
Fact #2 – Atmospheric CO2 has been steadily and consistently increasing at a rate of 1 to 2 ppm per year for the past 70 years as per Mauna Loa records, …… whereas human generated CO2 releases have been increasing exponentially every year for the past 70 years.
Richard, iffen the world’s population has been increasing exponentially during the past 70 years …. then human emissions of CO2 has been increasing exponentially during the past 70 years …… therefore this graph presented by Ferdinand, in respect to the aforesaid, is bogus, to wit:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/acc_co2_1900_cur.jpg
Simply because …. exponential increases in CO2 emissions DO NOT translate to linear increases in CO2 emissions …. as is portrayed on his cited graph.
And iffen one includes the accumulated totals of human emitted CO2 over the past 70 years, …… based on their “claimed residency time” in the atmosphere, ….. then any said claims in reference to said cited graph is surely highly questionable if not utterly bogus. Said cited graph should portray a distinct “upward curve” that reflects the aforesaid increases.
People who mix in apples, oranges and rutabagas, stir them all together and then claim they are serving potato salad, ……. simply irritate me.
Samuel,
Both human emissions and increase in the atmosphere is slightly quadratic, the net result is that the “airborne fraction” remains fairly constant with the emissions. See here for the accumulated emissions and the increase in the atmosphere:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/temp_emiss_increase.jpg
There may be some remote correlation with the increased population, but the trend is directly related to the global emissions…
Ferdinand, was that lime flavored Jell-O you had nailed to the wall for your above graph?
By the way, it looked more pediatric than triradic to me. But iffen you want to claim its quasiradic, that’s ok with me.
Samuel,
Human emission estimates since 1751:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls
http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=90&pid=44&aid=8
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/tre_glob.html
CO2 trends in the Law Dome ice cores 1850-1960 (resolution ~10 years, overlap 1960-1980 with South Pole and Mauna Loa data)
Mauna Loa yearly averaged CO2 levels since 1960
The extra CO2 from human emissions is a small fraction of the natural flow. It disappears into the same place the natural flows disappear.
“If humans emit twice the increase in the atmosphere, the natural cause must have increased a fourfold in the past 55 years, completely in lockstep with human emissions. You may believe that, but I think that is just wishful thinking…”
This shows your underappreciation of feedback systems and how they operate. In a feedback system, the flow automatically adjusts to be just what it needs to be to satisfy the boundary conditions.
For example, if you set your home thermostat to 21C, then the temperature is going to stay at 21C, no matter if you light a candle somewhere or turn on a stove eye or put in a hard workout. If you adjust the thermostat upwards in increments of 0.1C every hour, then 10 hours later, it will be 22C. There is nothing remarkable about the fact that the input heat is exactly what is needed to raise the level 1C – the number dialed into the thermostat governs it.
There is a governor for CO2 in the atmosphere, too. And, the boundary conditions with the interfaces to oceans and land determine the level which is “dialed in”.
Bart,
You know a lot more about the theory behind feedbacks than me, but I doubt that you have much experience with real life feedbacks.
Most natural inputs and outputs are temperature driven: seasonal changes (150 GtC in and out in a few months, 5 ppmv for 1°C temperature change), short living disturbances like Pinatubo and El Niño (2-3 GtC in or out over 2-3 years or 4-5 ppmv/°C) and very long changes (MWP-LIA, ice ages – interglacials, over many decades to many millennia at 8 ppmv/°C).
Some release processes are not temperature driven: volcanoes and human emissions.
Neither for vegetation nor for the oceans is there any reason to absorb any extra human (or volcanic) CO2 if the (seasonal or 2-3 years) temperature didn’t change: the main sink processes are temperature driven, especially the huge in/out fluxes over the seasons. Only if the atmospheric CO2 pressure increases beyond the temperature change, then some extra CO2 will be taken away by the oceans and vegetation. Thus you need extra CO2 pressure in the atmosphere first, before extra CO2 can get in the sinks.
That can be from extra ocean upwelling, for which is not the slightest indication (to the contrary) or from humans (other sources are too slow or too small or have the wrong 13C/12C ratio). In the first case, temperature plays a very minor role, in the second case, no role at all. In both cases, the sink rate doesn’t follow the source rate, or there wouldn’t be an increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Your example is not what your theory says: your theory says that if you increase the thermostat’s setpoint with 1°C, that the heating goes on indefinitely without stopping at the new temperature, thus no feedback from the increased temperature to the thermostat/burner…
What you always seems to forget is that the feedback in the real world is from the increased CO2 pressure in the atmosphere: that suppresses the influx from the oceans, whatever the temperature increase or influx increase and increases the outflux into the oceans and vegetation, whatever the cause of the increase…
A more appropriate analogy would be to increase the insulation in your home and maintain the same heat input to the home, then the temperature will go up until the losses balance the input.
Ferdinand Engelbeen @ur momisugly February 23, 2015 at 1:08 pm
“…but I doubt that you have much experience with real life feedbacks.”
Oh, believe me… If I didn’t, you would know it. The catastrophes would make international news.
Phil. @ur momisugly February 23, 2015 at 1:27 pm
“A more appropriate analogy would be to increase the insulation in your home and maintain the same heat input to the home, then the temperature will go up until the losses balance the input.”
I can’t make my wife seem to understand the concept of a thermostat, either. She can’t get it out of her head that turning it up higher doesn’t make it get warmer, faster. And, then she just has to turn it back down again. I’ve given up trying to explain.
The IPCC is not pursuing “their self-assigned role”.
The IPCC was established to support the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. The UNFCCC has the explicitly stated objective to “stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system”. The IPCC has no role and no right to question the founding UNFCCC assumption.
Perhaps if people understood better that it’s job is to find evidence supporting the preconceptions of the UNFCCC they would stop thinking that it’s meant to be impartial. It duty-bound to stretch the utmost limits of partiality. It is an advocate for its client.
You don’t expect the opposing lawyer to defend your case nor even to be fair to you, and if you did you would get what you deserve. Stop being offended that that the IPCC does its job. Draw attention to it. People are lazy but they aren’t stupid; they will understand.
Even it is bogus?
Their mission is to “stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system”.
100ppm increase in CO2 and no increase in temp. and the northern climes (Canada) are experiencing the coldest winter in recorded history.
Go talk to the sun. Get a life.
It’s always been a political issue, not a “science” issue. There’s a long list of poltical issues in the enviro world folks use to further their agendas ranging from Silent Spring, to Alar to — well, just about everything the modern enviro “movements” push out of their groups.
Combating them takes a different approach with most “skeptics” loath, afraid or not willing to expend the energy to engage them in their arena. Nearly all the political classes are OK with more political control (doh?) which is why, after 6 decades of truly horrible “enviro science”, they’re still winning. Travel around, count the windmills; look at the shuttered coal facillities; etc.
Only when their failures are spectacular from their killing of anilmals (birds for example), frozen corpses, starvation and general misery will the political class lose their fascination with the power of controlling, taxing and distribution of basic energy. Something like the scenes from the movies where the villagers light torches and storm the castle.
“Only when their failures are spectacular […] will the political class lose their fascination with the power of controlling, taxing and distribution of basic energy.”
That’s funny. They won’t lose their fascination; they will assume they haven’t been doing it hard enough.
is that the top of the ocean is “getting full”
Is that a technical term?
The first quote in your article, from the 2001 IPCC report, has been taken out of context, and completely misrepresents the intention of the writer. Here is the same sentence, with the following sentence added: “In climate research and modelling, we should recognise that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible. The most we can expect to achieve is the prediction of the probability distribution of the system’s future possible states by the generation of ensembles of model solutions.”
SteveB
OK. So which models are correct? Do we “evolve out” the 21 that have failed the past 30 years? If so, why are they wrong?
The 2 that are almost right. Why are they different? If only 2 out of 23 are “almost right” (in truth, even these 2 of 23 are only 5% “almost right”, why should we believe you?
When only 2 of 23 are within 5% of predicting actual trends over 18 years of flat global average temperatures, why is the “average” of the remaining wrong ones any more reliable than reading tea leaves?
What the IPCC report was trying to say is that they have to use ensembles to make predictions. By leaving out that second sentence, the quote was misunderstood.
Of course I agree with you that the ensemble predictions have failed so far, and are unlikely to be of any value. The disagreement between the models and the data are significant, and I think fundamental. But that doesn’t mean that one should take one of the IPCC quotes out of context. We should operate on a higher level.