Guest opinion: Prof Richard Betts, Dr Tamsin Edwards
Dr Tim Ball’s blog post “People Starting To Ask About Motive For Massive IPCC Deception” – drawing parallels between climate scientists and Hitler – doesn’t do anyone in the climate change debate any favours: in fact it seems a big (goose) step backwards. It’s especially frustrating to see him write this so soon after the productive dinner at Nic Lewis’s place, where the attendees agreed on the need to depolarise and detoxify the climate discussion. Anthony Watts wrote an extremely positive blog post about the evening, and there were many favourable comments from WUWT readers saying how great it was to have a more civilised conversation.
But here we see Tim sink to a new low, with Mein Kampf quotes and snide misrepresentation of the IPCC reports. Perhaps Tim hasn’t yet heard that many people on both sides of the discussion have moved on from the simple name calling of the past…. We were also disappointed that so few commenters below the post distanced themselves from his views. We hope this is merely selection bias, and that many of you are simply sighing and moving on to the next post.
For those that do endorse Tim’s views: we often see people who are sceptical of climate science and/or policy object to the term ‘Deniers’ (a phrase neither of us use). But it’s hard to see how anyone could justify taking offence at being called a Denier if they were happy to call other people Nazis. Especially when those people – professional climate scientists like us – are trying to engage in good faith discussions with Anthony and many others in the sceptical community.
We do understand that Anthony does not read all WUWT guest posts. We’re pleased that when we contacted him he added a disclaimer (albeit a somewhat ambiguous one) and offered us this chance to respond. We see this as a positive outcome of meeting in person at dinner. Certainly we would not be writing this without it.
As we understand it, Tim’s post does not at all reflect Anthony’s views.We therefore hope future WUWT guest writers adopt the civil and rational tone of the conversations we had that evening and do not remain stuck in the pointless, playground insults that do not help either climate science or its discussion.We invite our dinner companions from the 21st September (including Anthony) to add their views below. Personally, we think they will agree that Tim’s view is an out-of-touch relic.
Richard and Tamsin
Professor Richard Betts
Chair in Climate Impacts, College of Life and Environmental Sciences, University of Exeter – Head of Climate Impacts Research, Met Office Hadley Centre
Dr Tamsin Edwards
Lecturer in Environmental Sciences, Department of Environment, Earth and Ecosystems, The Open University
Note from Anthony:
I agree that Dr. Ball’s post had some “over the top” rhetoric in it, and it is my error that the post was published without benefit of editorial actions. It does not reflect my views. My excuse is simply that I was distracted by an extreme challenge in my life at the time, and I didn’t get to vet the guest post as I normally would have. That won’t happen again. On the plus side, this issue illustrates why one of the most common ugly claims about WUWT, the claim of being in the pay of “big oil” or some NGO, can’t possibly be true. If that were true, I could have long ago hired an assistant editor and such missteps would not occur. While there are many things that the IPCC can be validly criticized for, some of which were in Dr. Balls post, parallels with Nazism is not one of them.
While there remain wildly disparate views about climate science, I see that there are people on both sides that are gravitating towards a more central and in my opinion, more reasonable view. Climate skeptics and climate advocates should do everything possible to help facilitate such dialog, otherwise all we have is just noise. – Anthony Watts
Tim lost me at ‘deception’ in the title implying lying and intent, and it’s conspiracy theory sounding silliness. The article (imho) went rapidly downhill from there.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/11/23/people-starting-to-ask-about-motive-for-massive-ipcc-deception/#comment-1799447
I have only just got around to reading the original post and must say I totally agree with Richard and Tasmsin.
Many of us who are sceptical of the AGW meme (but not of constant climate change) are trying to build bridges, don’t think all climate scientists are dishonest or stupid and do not buy into the widespread hoax or conspiracy theme. There are some flaws or uncertainties in the science and a great deal of overconfidence by the consensus in promoting sometimes dubious figures (come on Richard, Global SST’s to 1850??)
It is these we need to deal with in a responsible fashion to chip away at the foundations and Tim’s piece did not help in this.
tonyb
When they admit that none their forecasts have been correct – then we will agree with them. Until then, they are being delusional if they imply they have anything but the vaguest idea of how the climate works.
thanks tonyb 🙂
I agree with SS. Edwards and Betts continue to spout their deniertribe and their massive increase in global temperature and their massive floods to come and their give us the money now and we will save you from disaster. When they become totally honest and start describing in accurate terms exactly how much they can conclusively prove, I do not want to hear their pathetic gripeing.
Tony B said :
Many of us who are sceptical of the AGW meme (but not of constant climate change) are trying to build bridges, don’t think all climate scientists are dishonest or stupid
You cannot build a bridge without very solid foundation on both sides of the Gorge. That is the starting point. The AGW crowd are a very long way from that witness the cry for another £97m from the UK Met O when they know their models are useless.
Secondly, saying the crimascologist are not stupid implies they are deceitful for they must be supporting the more fraudulent members of their profession for this scam to have continued for soooo long.
Personally, I would shut all climate change research here in Europe and the UK and start a resilience research paid for by businesses that will gain from the research. That way we will know they are lying from the outset and can more easily filter the truth from it.
go ahead and build bridges with liars … I have more productive things to do …
Stephen
Don’t knock the Met office. I am a frequent visitor to their excellent nice and warm library and archives to carry out research into historical aspects of Climate change, which seems nice irony for a sceptic. Wonder if the new supercomputer will vent heat into the Met office buildings?
If Richard Betts is reading this perhaps the next time we are both there he will invite me into the hallowed sanctum of the Staff restaurant to continue the interesting discussion we started during the recent climate conference at Exeter University.
tonyb
IMHO Anthony is close to being hoodwinked by these oh so nice types.
All they have done is poor mouth skeptical viewpoints and have offered no apologia for their side’s transgressions against decency.
I hope that Anthony provides Dr. Ball with an opportunity to answer.
“It is these we need to deal with in a responsible fashion to chip away at the foundations and Tim’s piece did not help in this.”
Chip away at what foundations? The elephant needs to be identified, THEN you can chip away at it. The problem is not science. It was never the science. The engine is “control” and the fuel is “fear”. Consider the prime motive for a narcissist — he wants to feel safe. This produces a small range of predictable behaviors.
The earliest proponents of AGW and decarbonization included men who were genuinely afraid for the future, Lovelock for instance.
Consider the cultural heritage of most AGW advocates — the Crown colonies; an island nation perpetually surrounded by enemies. Fear on a grand scale. It’s in their DNA. Decarbonize everyone else, pull their teeth. Feel safe!
climatereason/tonyb. Don’t knock the Met Office?! Are you serious? The Met Office is a joke of an organisation. Never mind their forecasts, which are actually completely useless now (I’m a gardener, trust me, ‘useless’ is to good a word for them). I once got into an email conversation with Phil Jones. I asked him why Giss and Hadley were not singing from the same sheet. He said that HadCRUt3 was better than Giss because Giss extrapolated to cope with the Arctic. Then they went ahead and created HadCRUt4. I haven’t heard Phil Jones say anything about it.
What we do not need at this time is to relax and try to be nice to a bunch of liars and frauds who have done great damage to society, not by accident but by design. Many should be charged and put on trial. Deliberate deception for personal gain.
You can keep your ‘Lets all hold hands and talk in pale pink voices about how naughty you have been’
There are no bridges to build, when climate alarmists have an attitude of my way or the highway. Either you completely accept all their claims or you are a denier. There is no middle ground to be had when one side of the debate believes in their point of view with religious fervor. Remember the science is settled and the debate is over.
Look chaps, the name calling will not stop on either side. Reasons:
1) Warmists will continue to use the ‘D’ word no matter what. Even into another Little Ice Age.
2) Accusations of being funded by big oil and being shills to the fossil fuel industry.
These folks are attempting a grand re-organisation our entire energy infrastructure at immense cost and pain with no gain (except for the likes of Lord Debden, Lord Stern et al with shares in companies to benefit from their suggestions and reports). FOLLOW THE MONEY, pointing this out makes them angry and prone to name calling. It’s the cash!
Don’t forget, folks, that Tamsin openly states on her academic profile page that she is (or was) funded by Ice2Sea, an organisation itself funded to the tune of 10M euros and with an obviously warmist agenda. Even if she privately thought that AGW was complete bull, she’s not going to do anything but fight to the bitter end to protect her livelihood.
I totally agree the term Naziism is wrong The IPCC would be more akin to a dictatorship
Tasmin Edwards
I would like to know what made you decide to move into climate science and climate modelling in 2006?
According to the peer review what kinds of weather have been getting more extreme over the last 30 years?
Well you may be trying to build bridges but it has nothing to do with science. The AGW crowd has systematically used every trick they could think of to keep debate out, including lying, sabotaging careers, conspiring to keep scientific inquiry out and outright fraud and data manipulation, and continue to this day.
When the vested interests of science conspire with the state to manipulate the masses THAT is national socialism and THAT is Nazism whether you like it or not. After 20 years of complete BS from climate science, someone needs to call a spade a spade.
One should be on their toes, when it is seen that a résumé mentions uncertainty assessment/analysis.
Uncertain-techniques figure large among striking sci-tech achievements. Their reputation is very robust.
Grooming & recruitment for uncertainty-positions goes after the best of the best.
Climate is an obvious field in which to deploy this specialty.
Tony, from where I stand, the foundations look completely rotten. I don’t think that ENSO and the AMO are internal variability, and I know that there is solar forcing of atmospheric teleconnections at the scale of weather, which is again assumed to be chaotic internal variability.
why would you want to build bridges with fundamentally dishonest people?
Jimbo
November 28, 2014 at 4:25 am
Dr. Edwards followed the money.
I, too, read no further than the title. I’m glad my instincts were correct in doing so (or not, as the case may be).
Don’t you think you ought to read it if you are going to comment? Is your trust in Anthony and others so great that you will just take their word for it?
John uhh no. Nothing to do with trust. My expectation would be that you would stop paying attention if I began my post with a few choice words directed at you. Dr. Ball could have got his point across without the venom
The proponents of AGW have been employing collusion, deception and ridicule as they peddle their patent lies for profit.
Like the snake oil salesmen of old they do not deserve any wriggle room as they slink out of town, never to be seen again
While the “Nazi” rhetoric may be over the top.
The reality remains that the alarmist side wants to control many aspects of everybody’s lives and dramatically decrease our lifestyles.
It really doesn’t matter how good your motives are when you are pursuing evil ends.
Hear hear!
Rhetoric-indulgences aren’t just about being over the top.
It’s about whether we’re ready to calmly take a seat, in the front of the bus.
I seem to remember there was lots of research to prove the inferiority of jews in many respects and other science of the times in Germany and I also remember much of Freuds work was geared to drug sales and/or endless expensive therapies so the distortion of science is not new. Genetics and the soviet union also come to mind.
The [Scientific] world famously doesn’t end with a bang, but with a whimper. It’s not the outside forces that do in a culture, but internal dissipation. Science has survived a fairly steady parade of more or less deep embarrassments.
Actually, I doubt those who consider themselves to be fighting the good climate-fight (pro or con) will determine the outcome. Like mom showing up at a squabble – The Public will end the dispute. Their way.
Assuming that climate-voodooism continues its ineptitude, voters will reward politicians moving to end the farce. All climate-contenders will find themselves twisting in the breeze.
Without funding, and open derision in the media (for whom mocking their Champions will be tomorrow’s lead story), momentary satisfaction among skeptics (as Anthony Watts considers what to do next), there will be a stampede of ‘climate scientists’ to other disciplines.
My brother started out chasing a deep interest in Archaeology. He was encouraged to learn APL programming, and pioneered modern dig-data analysis. Oops; archeo-jobs imploded … so he parlayed the Computer Science minor into a Mathematics major, and joined the Air Force, to follow Carl Sagan to the stars. He did a full career in heavy-lift, instead … and after his boy got into go-carts, he ended up owning a NASCAR dirt-track. The son eventually won the SCCA National Championship … and today they pay the bills fabricating race car chassis, bodies and wings from advanced composites. Brother can go in so many Sci-Tech directions, it makes ya dizzy.
Climate Science is not a science per se, and we all know that. It’s a cross-disciplinarian amalgam of assorted/variable qualifications & skills. When the climate game collapses, those called ‘climate scientists’ will quickly become some other kind of scientist. Most of them already are, and have been, all along. And yeah, most of them are perfectly aware of all of this.
So no, it doesn’t have to be a ghastly professional trauma, when the IPCC is relieved of the climate science portfolio.
As far as I can tell no one was called a Nazi. Valid use was made of a principle espoused by a Nazi, however, which seemed accurate to me. Using the Nazi aspersion, even in scare quotes, seems to me to be a case of trying to disqualify the opponents.
The “Nazi” accusation is a red herring
It distracts from the worldview issues addressed by Tim Ball.
Maurice Strong presumes human population growth is bad.
Therefore use Climate as a popular means to achieve his goal.
Who all is ‘The alarmist side’? I’ve blogged some of my thoughts about the relation between science and policy, and I don’t think I’m trying to control many aspects of peoples’ lives, much less to drastically decrease their lifestyles. Maybe that means I’m not an ‘alarmist’?
http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2008/07/keep-your-vehicles-how-you-choose.html
or, more recently:
http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2012/07/reality-based-decision-making.html
Robert Grumbine asks:
“Maybe that means I’m not an ‘alarmist’?”
Probably. Alarmist is polar bears falling from the sky, or photos of people standing in a submerged city, or even “Waterworld” for that matter. Almost anything from Albert Gore Jr. Almost anything at SkepticalScience. Lovelock’s earlier writings.
The hallmark is a “telescoped” time sense as if all this disaster is imminent. My brother was in a panic about millions of drowning Bangladeshis. When I explained that we’re talking 200 to 500 years, longer than the United States has *been* the United States, even a paraplegic can move to higher ground faster than a tide that takes 200 years to rise.
In that time this planet will have several more world wars, including probably the big one, many regional wars, countless economic disturbances and depressions, pandemics; and of course, the elephant in the room, running out of fuel. Thomas Malthus — welcome to your new world.
Robert Grumbine asks (elsewhere)
“all just trying to take away their SUV.”
This is an easy target for lefties and greens. Of course, the comedy happens when greens go on the road in their SUV to complain about SUV’s.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/01/monday-mirthiness-live-on-an-iceberg-adrift-for-a-year-guy-alex-bellini-drives-an-suv-to-highlight-his-concern-about-climate-change/
To me a bigger nuisance is huge pickup trucks that cannot park in a normal parking spot nevertheless doing exactly that and you have the misfortune of being parked next to it so you cannot enter your little Toyota. Another scenario is pulling up to a stopsign and a huge pickup truck pulls up beside you and pulls forward so you have no hope of seeing what is coming. If it was just a little higher you could see UNDER it to see what is coming.
Robert Grumbine, I appreciate your comment here. I have bookmarked your site and started a new category called “moderate”. You seem to be somewhat unique. It will be interesting to read the comments on your site as readers try to pull you into one camp or another.
Michael2: By all means keep an eye on the comments and make some yourself. They don’t even have to agree with me, though it turned out we’re in fair agreement about the method of multiple hypotheses.
But, in terms of me being shifted to a more extreme position … not likely. Notice that the SUV post was in 2008. I’ve engaged in the internet discussions on science since the early 1990s, and still am about here. Some things are better supported now, a few of my personal policy preferences have shifted as I’ve seen more of the world. But I’m still around here in the non-extreme.
I prefer ‘thoughtful’ to ‘moderate’. I’d really prefer no labels, but we humans seem to require some degree of that. My thoughts are also pretty much majority when I’m in a meeting with other scientists. You don’t hear about them for the same reasons you didn’t know about me before now.
I’m going to discontinue the ‘notify me of new comments’, so probably won’t see anything further here. But you, and anyone else who would like to discuss the science are welcome to come to my blog. I do enforce an ‘on topic’ rule, so if the topic of the post is sea ice, CO2 is probably off topic. But I also periodically hang out a ‘question place’ post for questions. Nobody who calls themselves a skeptic has ever shown up with a question.
Help me out here; who was it who photoshopped himself in the uniform of the Reichsfuehrer SS? I forget.
“But here we see Tim sink to a new low, with Mein Kampf quotes and snide misrepresentation” – because only the CAGW frauds are allowed to do that!
I’ve only read it twice but I don’t see any “over the top nazi rhetoric” in Dr Ball’s post. All I see is a very germane quote about colossal deception from the master of colossal deception. If people hadn’t been told the quote was from Adolf Hitler they wouldn’t be having this knee-jerk reaction. Who knew more about the “big lie” than Hitler and his cronies, especially Dr Goebbels? People need to get a grip and read what Dr Ball is saying. Is he wrong about Maurice Strong, IPCC, the big lie and the UN? Do you have data?
Richard Sharpe:
“Valid use was made of a principle espoused by a Nazi, however, which seemed accurate to me.”
WRONG. It might “seem” accurate to you but if you did basic research you would find Dr. Ball’s usage of the quote was not valid and instead it was grossly abused
Chris Moffatt:
“I don’t see any “over the top nazi rhetoric” in Dr Ball’s post. All I see is a very germane quote about colossal deception from the master of colossal deception. . . . Who knew more about the “big lie” than Hitler and his cronies, especially Dr Goebbels?”
WRONG. For the same reasons Richard Sharpe was wrong.
People, Hitler was not promoting the use of the “Big Lie” but was instead claiming it was being used against the German people. Dr. Ball totally misused that quote.
The irony in this debate is both sides are pushing a Big Lie about Hitler. Both are being very sloppy about a basic fact. The irony is both sides are claiming the other side is using sloppy scientific principles but both are committing academic fraud (in the colloquial rather than legal sense) by not getting a basic fact correct!!
Anthony HAS SPANKED (SNIPPED) me personally because I went over the top. I have learned my lesson and everybody on this thread just needs to chill out.
It’s simple, really. If skeptics don’t like being called deniers — an attempt to demonize people, so that others won’t pay attention to them — then skeptics need to not participate in the same behaviour of name calling. Nazi parallels are particularly nasty name calling.
If you think that Drs. Betts and Edwards are participating in a “being nice offensive” to catch skeptics off guard, then the way to deal with it is via debate. I’m just happy to see that after all this time of folks on our side asking for fair debate (as opposed to stonewalling debate and ignoring critics), a few folks in the mainstream IPCC camp are reaching out.
Agreed, John.
One modification, though. Debate presupposes fixed positions — neither side in a debate will change or learn. (Except, perhaps, how to be a better debater.)
Discussion is where you all (whoever is in the discussion) bring out your best understandings on some topic and thrash it out — with it being perfectly possible, and considered desirable, by all of you that you’ll leave with a changed understanding. I like to see and participate in discussion. Debates are deadly dull.
At a little more detail and length: http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2008/08/discussion-vs-debate.html
They are “reaching out”, in order to appear nice.
That is what prostitutes and pimps do.
John. I would be reaching out too if I finally realized that I am probably wrong and that I was part of a fraud that has caused so much hardship and expense to much of the world. Let me know when that “fair debate” shows up on the MSM and any CAGW sites.
What you call “reaching out” is better described as “co-opting” and it’s very powerful. As an example, NY Times Magazine, 10/16/2011, GOP lobbyist Scott Reed says GOP E uses co-opting to eliminate the Tea Party. Reed: “”That’s the secret to politics:trying to control a segment of people without those people recognizing that you’re trying to control them.”” 3 well known national so-called Tea Party groups were co-opted by the GOP E almost from inception and they remain so. National TP people were befriended by GOP E and they melted. As a result, these national TP groups are now a bigger problem than the GOP E. US politicians of both parties have built the CO2 scam into a $1 billion a day parasite. Real problems are left to starve.
“…Perhaps Tim hasn’t yet heard that many people on both sides of the discussion have moved on from the simple name calling of the past….”
Perhaps indeed, but I suggest that, given the legalistic approach taken by those who disagree with Dr Ball, one might be inclined to cut him a bit of slack.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/22/michael-manns-legal-case-caught-in-a-quote-fabrication-fib/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/06/silencing-critics-instead-of-debating-them
A donation to Tim’s legal fund would be helpful in the process to move on from simple name calling. As one can see from the WUNT post below, Dr Ball has been waiting some time for the other side to “move on”.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/08/help-asked-for-dr-tim-ball-in-legal-battle-with-dr-mann/
Regards
Stephen
Maybe it’s my browser’s edit find function but I cannot find the word ‘Nazi’ or ‘Nazis’ anywhere in Tim Ball’s opinion piece. Sorry if it’s there and I missed it.
Can someone please identify the exact quote where Tim Ball calls “other people Nazis”?
Here is what I read. A quote from Hitler, plus this:
I may not agree with everything Tim Ball writes but if you say he calls “other people Nazis” then show me where he says that?
Exactly my thoughts!
Tim Ball may be guilty of being politically incorrect, but that’s about it.
If one investigates scientifically and finds very little in the real world to support the basis/claims of the UNFCCC. Then it is obvious naturally to start asking “Why are they doing it?”
Realizing that climate science has been politicized with the motive to promote political Agendas is a giant leap forward for mankind in this debate.
Here is a little reminder of what went past. Maybe we should cut Dr. Tim Ball some slack, his opinion piece is mild compared to what you are about to read. No matter how hard WE try this cannot be kept civil. See below for the reasons why.
Where were the condemnations on some of those blogs and news sites?
Maybe you missed a major one there in that list. I’m not going to quote but I suggest to google: Richard Parncutt global warming
You started it!
I agree. Stop calling us Den iers and also stop tring to deceive us about the science and I’m sure that then most skeptics will sit at the table and have a reasonable discussion with you.
And we can act to end it … or to validate it.
I concur.
When will Richard and Tamsin write something like this in reaction to an article by a rabid warmista where skeptics are smeared beyond recognition? Or even asked to be imprisoned or killed because of a thought-crime (in that warmista’s view)?
*crickets*
Absolutely … until then, they are hypocrites. What about them getting stuck into the perennial liar, Bob Ward, with equal gusto. Or coming out and condemning Mann for his ‘crimes against statistics’ … yep, chirp, chirp.
Time also for our gracious host and like-minded to consider that they are being hoodwinked and drawn in by a touchy feely warm cozy fuzzy wuzzy attempt by the likes of Betts and Edwards to blunt the response to CAGW garbage that pays their salaries.
Cheers! They wouldn’t do anything else….
I don’t think the issue is one of an eye for an eye. Besides, the warmists are way, way ahead at this point anyway. There is in fact no possibility of ever evening up that score.
I also don’t think the issue is of Richard and Tamsin being hypocrites. It is not their job to police anyone.
Yes, Ball’s post tried to draw a parallel to practices employed by (among others) Nazis… so? The question is if the reference had merit. I can’t begin to bother to find out.
I think there is some overreacting and nitpicking going on here which, btw, is common in the “debate”. Personally, I shrug. We read worse nonsense day in day out. It’s inevitable. After all, how many commenters know a thing about climate? So they run their mouths on “politics” and such.
Or when will these two write to call out the RIDICULOUS CERTAINTY of the doom scenarios in the IPCC summary reports? C’mon Man! Really? Tim Ball’s private essay (which I don’t endorse) on a blog gets your collective pen out but not an influencial document being used to alter billions of lives and change trillions of dollars around? As I write this I can’t believe we’ve come to this.
I can’t say I find you Richard, or you Tamsin in any way respectable as scientists. Be honest with the certainty of the science in the IPCC, then you can complain about the opinion of private citizens! This makes me so angry.
Fully agree. They are liars, pimps and prostitutes.
When a group of people are committing a massive fraud. When their actions are causing the deaths of thousands if not millions of poor people and insuring they and their children will continue to live in poverty. When they advocate actions that will destroy the environment (wind farms and solar farms). When they want do destroy the economies of the developed world and bring everyone’s lives down to the level of North Korea It is hard to be civil in response to their lack if civilly.
Is it a bird? Is it a plane?….No, It’s Don Quijote.
Coal and tar sands destroy the environment – if you don’t believe it go look at the mountaintop removal projects in the Appalachian Mountains, or visit the tar sands in Alberta – or breathe the air in any one of a dozen cities in China. What is your specific evidence that thousands to millions of people are dying due to the advocacy of climate scientists?
Define “destroy”, polemicist. Mt. St. Helens destroyed a few things, but not the environment. The tar sands of Alberta are being mined responsibly and restored You use the word “destroy” in place of “touch.” You want to help the environment? Go to China and teach them how we burn coal.
Yeah, but you guys ignore all real pollution. CO2 is your one trick pony. You are even happy about the risk using mercury curly bulbs to reduce CO2 and at the same time regulate the tiny amount of Hg from coal fired plants just to shut down the CO2 emissions. Its the hypocrisy of all this that galls. BTW, what do you drive, where do you take your holidays?
pollution in China is no different than the pollution that occurred in the Developed World when they initially first industrialized. It is only after countries industrialize and start generating a surplus that they can afford to clean up the environment. Until then all their resources are going towards food, clothing and shelter.
We have just returned from a visit to China. What we saw in our 2 weeks were ultra modern cities to rival anything in the west and a prosperous, booming consumer economy. People we met on the street were polite, helpful and greeted us with a mix of warmth and curiosity.
The people we met were also keenly aware of the pollution and want it cleaned up. They don’t want it cleaned up however at the expense of their prosperity. Given the choice they would rather have a job, condo, car, food on the table and education for their child (yes the one child policy is still in force).
A lot of the industry we saw in China was heavy industry. Massive industrial plants along the Yangtze and on the outskirts of the cities. The sort of industry that largely has been eliminated from the west by environmental concerns. These industries along with their pollution are now bringing wealth to China.
The joke we heard in China is that once they are rich enough, they will transfer these industries and their pollution to India. But in the meanwhile they are the backbone of the economy.
I suspect the unemployed of Detroit, living in poverty with something like 70 thousand abandoned buildings would rather have their heavy industry and jobs back, even if it meant dirty air.
The oil sands in Alberta are one of the largest natural oil spills on the planet. When the Rockies were formed along what is now the BC – Alberta border, the oil was squeezed out and drained into the sands on the plains of Alberta. Over thousands and millions of years this oil has degraded due to exposure to the environment until today it is heavy oil, mistakenly referred to as tar.
The oil sands recovery projects ongoing on Alberta are removing this heavy oil and returning the sand – cleaner than it was. The governments of Alberta and Canada, along with the oil industry are keenly aware of the environmental issues and are applying lessons learned each year to minimize the impact while bringing enormous prosperity to the people of Alberta and Canada.
The large majority of Canadians are pro development in a responsible manner. We don’t believe all resource development is rape, any more than all sex is rape. We don’t want to simply leave the oil in the ground “for future generations”. Nothing says that oil will have a market in the future. It may well be replaced by something else, leaving today’s oil deposits worthless.
Isn’t much of China’s pollution natural wind born dust?
ferdberple *** You Nailed It***
Alberta has no “tar sand” development, it has ” oil sand” development. Using the term is just as misleading as ” deniers”. Tar is the end product of distillation and found in asphalt, oil is the feedstock for distillation and found in your gas tank and crankcase. If you can’ t tell the difference between the stuff on your dipstick and the stuff under your car, learning the difference would be a good starting point. Constantly repeating a falsehood never makes it true, if it did, ” rap” would be music by now.
Chris,
Have you ever visited the OIL (NOT TAR) sands of Alberta? What did you see that was destroying the environment. Hope you don’t believe all that exaggerated propaganda from the radical environmentalists. It is oil not tar, if you did your homework on what is tar you would know that it is oil, not TAR in the sands! Furthermore you should look at how the government policy against coal has negatively impacted the economies of the coal mining regions, causing massive unemployment and desperate communities from areas that had high paying jobs.
FYI I worked for one year on a oil sands project in the 70’s and that project alone brought hundreds of thousands of high quality, low sulfur, synthetic crude to market daily in Canada and the US while displacing imported crude from the unfriendly and terrorist supported far east nations. I fished on the banks of the Athabasca river with it’s banks soaked with oil from nature not man. Think man might be cleaning up not polluting?
If you did your homework you would find that the Canada government has strict environmental regulations on the oil sands development and mandates restoration of the lands which are now cleaner than before the oil extraction began. These projects created numerous jobs and contributed significantly to the prosperity of all of Canada.
How many have been killed by a mountain top removal? Mountain top removal doesn’t destroy the environment, it changes it.
300000 per year die from chronic exposure to smoke from traditional cooking practices: http://www.cleancookstoves.org/our-work/the-issues/health-impacts.html
If climate scientists weren’t advocating less carbon based energy production, these people might get a form of energy that that is less deadly.
If you are so worried about carbon based energy production, why are you using a computer?
Clever, Changing the subject. Were not discussing air pollution . Were talking about claims that current levels of CO2 are causing horrific climate change. If you don’t understand the topic, please don’t comment or try your Alinsky type tactics.
The history of mankind shows that as dependance on recyclable energy decreased (wind, water, wood, animal and human) as a percentage of the energy available; the living standard of people has gone up and the environment has improved. Compare the environmental problems of Appalachia or Alberta with the environmental problems of Bangladesh or almost anywhere is Sub-Saharan Africa. The environmental movement stopped the distribution of DDT which has increased the deaths by insect born disease by millions.
Advocacy of climate scientists has caused the world bank to stop lending money to third world countries for coal fired power plants. This means that all the people in those countries are trapped in never ending poverty. I also note that ever since the Global cooling, Global warming, Climate change (the name keeps changing) hoax the living standard in the US has stopped increasing.
If they were really concerned as you seen to imply you/they are. They would be fighting to stop the environmental disaster of wind farms and solar power farms. That are killing off Raptores and other birds along with various reptiles. They have perpetuated the hoax of the use of ethanol for fuel from food stocks (corn) that has done nothing for the environment but has increased the world cost of all grain further driving the poor deeper into poverty.
Warmest climate scientists jumped on poor old CO2 a natural plant food that is now lower in the atmosphere that it has been for over 90 percent of earths existence. During the previous Huronian, Cryogenian, Andean-Saharan and Karoo Glaciations the CO2 level was much higher that it is today. We are living in the Holocene Interglacial of the Quaternary Glaciation and are worrying about it getting a little warmer. If CO2 levels fall much below 260 PPM (they won’t) plants will start to die off and we will have real problems. During the previous interglacial (MIS5) and during the interglacial most like the current one MIS11 sea levels were between 15 MIS5 and 60 MIS11 feet higher that they are today. So I do not take man made global warming with being real.
And here we have a perfect example of the kind of person John was talking about.
Strip mining does not destroy the environment, especially when you realize that the law requires that the land be remediated when mining is complete.
The air in China is the result of their not using pollution control equipment that has been SOP here for 40 years.
Anyone who cites the air in China has immediately lost all credibility.
Taphonomic, to the extreme environmentalists, any change, if it is caused by man, is by definition destruction.
It doesn’t matter how small or inconsequential the change might be.
No they don’t. What’s so precious about a mountain top? It’s just rock. It will get eroded by nature itself. You have a romantic notion of nature. Do volcanos “destroy” the environment? How about the 6000 year old coal fire in Australia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_Mountain, is that destroying the environment.
Agriculture and cities “destroy” the environment far more than using fossil fuels. Should we ban them?
@ur momisugly Chris :November 27, 2014 at 6:15 am
“Coal …… destroy the environment – if you don’t believe it go look at the mountaintop removal projects in the Appalachian Mountains”
———————-
And just what is your problem with this “reclaimed” MTR mining site in Kentucky, USA.
http://www.coaleducation.org/technology/Reclamation/mountaintop-images/DSC3524.JPG
Or this “reclaimed” MTR mining site in Clarksburg, WV, USA
http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/21/eastpointemall.jpg
Those hills were originally sooooooo steep that you couldn’t chase a Billy Goat over the top of them … so what was your plans for them before their “tops” were flattened out into “prime” useable real estate? And the coal that was extracted fed the fires that produced the electricity that I need and require ….. and smelted the aluminum for making the cans that I purchase my beer and soda pop in.
Fred, how long did that take in the US? How long will it take for China to generate a “surplus” (whatever that means) when they have hundreds of millions in poverty?
How many died of starvation due to increased food prices during the “covert food to fuel” fiasco?
“What is your specific evidence that thousands to millions of people are dying due to the advocacy of climate scientists?”
A 2003 NHTSA* study estimated that cars produced between 1996 and 1999 would kill an additional 39,197 people as a result of CAFE standards.
The war on CAGW has arguably caused more American casualties than Korea, Vietnam, Gulf wars I and II and the war in Afghanistan combined. It is time to put an end to this madness. The daily toll estimated from the NHTSA study of 27 deaths per day is an enormous price to pay for the continuing debate on this issue
*Charles J. Kahane, Ph.D., “Vehicle Weight, Fatality Risk and Crash Compatibility of Model Year 1991-99 Passenger Cars and Light Trucks,” National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Department of Transportation, Washington, D.C., October 2003, p. 11-13, available at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/pdf/809662.pdf as of June 23, 2006.
“Coal and tar sands destroy the environment”.
Only locally just like a volcanic eruption.
Watch the place in a few decades and everything will be fine.
As for China, the current economic boom is boosting the average life expectancy of the Chinese.
No permanent damage will be done to the place. Just look at the German Ruhrgebiet in the sixties and watch it now.
Just answer one question. How many people have been killed by the bio fuel mandate in the USA and Europe? Does the Arab Spring ring a bell?
24,000 innocents died in the UK alone in just one winter due to “”fuel poverty” A year later, the CAGW death toll was even worse: 25,300 excess deaths occurred BECAUSE of YOUR political decision to force higher energy prices and restrict the development and distribution of readily available fossil fuels .
And THAT was in one country that was able to track such excess deaths. You are ignoring the millions harmed every year throughout the less-developed world.
The air quality is better in Fort McMurray, Alberta–where the Oil Sands are–than Montréal Québec, 130 miles from where Bill McKibben lives. Go to Environment Canada and download the widgets that you see it on a daily basis. Furthermore, Alberta has a draconian reclamation law that requires the mines to restore the land to the same or better condition in which they found it. Any company operating there spends on average 15 years after the mine is closed doing that restoration. The Appalachian Mountains have no such requirement.
You can see what on of the former mines looks like now: http://www.capp.ca/energySupply/innovationStories/Land/Pages/Reclaiming.aspx
You need to read more, Chris. Try this:
P.S. After reading Samuel C Cogar’s comment, I apologize for not knowing that land is relaimed in the Appalachian Mountains.
https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-obama-plan-power-africa-gets-off-dim-061242670.html
Instead of helping Africa step into the 20th century we’re keeping them in the 5th century. That’s how we’re killing millions of people.
@ur momisugly policycritic: November 27, 2014 at 3:09 pm
“P.S. After reading Samuel C Cogar’s comment, I apologize for not knowing that land is relaimed in the Appalachian Mountains.”
—————
No problem, t’was not really your fault.
Info and pictures of/on those re-claimed MTR sites …. are akin to … research and studies that disagree and/or discredit the “fear mongering” claims of CAGW, ….. the “greenies” and the liberal biased “anti-coal” media don’t want the public to know anything about them.
PS: Very, very few people realize that what is pictured in the following photo is in fact a circa-1950’s (non-mining) MTR site …… that millions of people know only as …. Yeager Airport, Charleston, WV.
http://wvmetronews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Yeager_airport.jpg
Coal does cause horrible pollution. But your use of the term ‘tar sands to describe the Alberta oil sands is childish. The oil sands is in a country which has a global green house gas emission of less than 2%. The oil sands accounts for a tiny fraction of Canada’s total GHG emissions which again are less than 2%.
+1000 Great comment
You should not be civil. Call them out for what they are.
Warmists are trying to save lives by doing all they can to make renewables work better. It’s all for the children and the elderly. They certainly are acting now by making solar and wind turbines generate wonderful cold winter heat. Deforestation in Brazil and Indonesia for biofuels is a good thing. Bird chopping does no harm. Food to fuel? No problem. Indians burn dung to cook? It adds to the flavour I hear. And so on……………
Guardian
Winter deaths rose by almost a third in 2012-13
Age UK describes 30,000 excess winter deaths as shameful and urges government action on energy bills
They do not like it up ’em!
see http://www.theeuroprobe.org 2012 – 021 The Toxic Origins of the EU and they are really toxic.
I suggest that Richard and Tamsin work to clean up their own house first.
Complaining about describing the techniques used by climate activists (maybe not all climate scientists) accurately is weak. How many climate scientists have stood up publicly and condemned the use to hate language from activists and scientists like Mann? Have you guys gone to activist web sites where skeptical comments are deleted and skeptics banned to voice your objections? If so, I sure haven’t seen it.
Sorry, but when your side started the name calling, ad hominem attacks and massive propaganda to denigrate anyone skeptical of AGW, you really need to show some good faith. Until then you’ve lost the right to complain.
I suggest you find out a bit more about Richard and I 🙂 We do stand up to incorrect science, hate language etc etc. Barry Woods will vouch for this. We have various links we can point you to.
“Your side started the name calling” – generalisation isn’t helpful. Some of us want to do things differently. Why lump us with them when we are clearly drawing a distinction by posting here and meeting with Anthony?
Good faith goes both ways…
Your side started the name calling” – generalisation isn’t helpful.
but is factual and accurate which is what is supposed to matter in science.
But the silly insults are not the real problem , the endemic poor scientific practice seen within the area so that being unable to support the claims with good science bad insults are resorted to instead, is the problem .
With big claims come the rightful demand for big evidenced to support them and the claims around AGW have been massive, but evidenced has not.
There’s an old saying …. closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. That’s pretty much what I see going on. While your intentions may be good, I see them as too little too late. You still have activists attacking skeptics daily. People have lost their jobs for having a skeptical opinion. This is not just about a little name calling. Until I see scientists standing up defending skeptics on a regular basis, I’m not going to get upset when a skeptic like Dr. Ball fights back.
Richard and *me*. Sorry, but all this talk of Hitler brought out the grammar Nazi in me!
Please show where you have both corrected the science specifically of the IPCC, their summary, Michael Mann, James Hansen, and so on, so on, and so on.
I have seen none of it. If I’m wrong I would be more than happy to apologies and enter into discussion on the failure of your climate models used for the policy makers document, the recent RS paper etc.
Betts has a massive interest, as I believe you do, in the continuation of the belief and use of climate models. He has only ever pottered around the fringes of trying to show that he is a semi-sceptic and therefore a good guy.
If you want to do things differently there are plenty of opportunities on all the sceptics blogs to join in without ad homenins and appeals to authority. Join in please.
Dr. Edwards,
I won’t critique your and Dr. Betts science. I will critique your knowledge of political history and the use of “the big lie”.
The IPCC’s charter from the outset has been ”to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation”.
You’ll note that the IPCC is NOT charged with assessing the scientific understanding of the climate and the potential impacts of climate change on humans and their options for adaptation and mitigation to it’.
There was speculation about carbon dioxide causing the atmosphere to warm virtually since the energy spectra of molecules were discovered, since Swante Arrhenius, who began the politics of global warming with initial calculations of it’s possible existence and warnings about it’s potential dangers. Dr. Ball’s use of the quote from Hitler is simply one point in the long political history of political propaganda starting, perhaps, with Sun Tzu and the art of war.
It really is unfair to tar real scientists who are truly trying to understand the climate with the same brush as the politicians and pseudo scientists who formulated the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change and the totally unscientific, political IPCC.
then point to them …
your side is lying … until they stop nothing is out of bounds … YOU are responsible to get them to stop … I don’t care if your feelings are hurt … you are on the side of liars and frauds … fix it … then complain …
Hi Tamsin,
Yes, please do post the links. Please also post any links you may have to peer reviewed articles you have written refuting some of the nonsense we see regarding the dangers of man-made climate change.
Also, if you have any links where you publicly assert your dismay at the way Tim Ball was hounded out of the BBC for his views on the climate, that too would be very helpful in establishing that you are indeed genuinely interested in having a proper debate.
When I see that your favourite quote is “If most climate scientists were like Tamsin, there’d be hardly any sceptics”, it doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence, given that skepticism should be the default view of all scientists.
I would also like to see a link where Dr Betts distances himself from his own study here (PDF) which speculates not on whether, but on when there will be a 4°C (with the possibility of a 7°C) rise in global temperatures.
Because when I see stuff like that, the only conclusion I can draw is that the author is a fully paid up member of the Climate Science “Big Lie”, and posting complaints about an article that exposes the use of the Big Lie, smacks of wanting to have one’s cake and eat it.
Tamsin and Richard nailed my reaction to the Ball article when they wrote: “We hope this is merely selection bias, and that many of you are simply sighing and moving on to the next post.” There are a lot of bad actors on both sides, but Tamsin is one of the good guys in terms of civilized debate.
Mike M.
Please, Dr. Edwards, point is to your statement commenting on the inappropriateness of the hockey stick graph. Imwould love to read it. If not yet published, the your credibility is nil.
Couldn’t agree more, Tamsin. Full marks to you guys for posting here. I don’t see why some people think you should kneel down in sackcloth and ashes and apologize for what other climate scientists may have said. The Nic Lewis meeting was exactly what was needed to open up a constructive and civilized dialogue, and you didn’t shrink from publicly defending it against AGW zealots who criticised you for supping with the Devil. Both of you have always been civil and refrained from name calling and ad hominem arguments.
Then perhaps you would like to comment on the Royal Society’s paper this morning, and Roger Harrabin’s usual refusal to question press releases and Bob Ward’s even more laughable than usual inability to take a balanced view on anything.
I’m sorry, Tamsin, but the fact that Tim Ball got carried away (and I’m not defending him) does not excuse the wilful distortion of the facts of climate and the misuse of models to scare the populace. To put it in a nutshell and language that everyone can understand, the RS paper is a pack of lies. There are no grounds for making the claims it does.
And you know it.
I have read some of Tamsin Edwards and Betts comments calling people out on the use of the ‘D’ word and I commend their efforts. I don’t agree with everything Tim Ball writes. Now read these Tasmin. I don’t believe in
Examples comparing AGW sceptics to holocaust deniers.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/03/03/the-silence-of-the-anti-defamation-league-suggests-they-endorse-defamation-of-climate-skeptics/
Proposed treatment of CAGW sceptics. Not nice, trials, executions, rubbing faces in asbestos etc.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/03/03/the-silence-of-the-anti-defamation-league-suggests-they-endorse-defamation-of-climate-skeptics/#comment-1581627
The IPCC should not be compared to Nazis but please to read a bit about the green roots of the Nazi party and the problem of modern eco-fascist ecology. They do say ‘never again’ so we must be on our guard at all times.
This should be deleted from my comment awaiting moderation (third line down).
I don’t believe in@ur momisugly Brian Davis: November 27, 2014 at 10:42 am
“The Nic Lewis meeting was exactly what was needed to open up a constructive and civilized dialogue, ……”
——————–
Then tell us, …. just why in hell has it taken like 30 years of denialism of the “junk science” claims, obfuscations, half-truths, fuzzy mathematics and reams n’ reams of “fear mongering” agitprop rhetoric before any of the Degreed Climate Scientists who are avid proponents of CAGW would even consider attending and/or engaging in the aforesaid Nic Lewis meeting?
Surely it is not a case of ….. “They all got smart too late”.
I agree that name calling damages the debate. As a self-confessed “denier” rather than “agnostic”, I do not mind being called a denier but I understand that many who use that term do so to equate us with the nuttiest of conspiracy theorists so that the public cannot be misled by our honestly and reasonably based views that man has very little power to overrule nature in the long term.
It is a pity, so far as I can see, that whenever a climate scientist such as Professor Pielke (father and son) or Dr. Spencer queries some of the more extreme theories put forward by their doctrinaire colleagues, there is an almost hysterical ganging up against them.
I would be very happy if I saw Professor Betts and Dr. Edwards criticise the recent BBC report of the Royal Society’s latest doom and gloom which appears to me to be sheer propaganda and very little science.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30215782
I realise it would take courage for a British academic working in the field to criticise the hysteria of such an august body. Or should I say two such august bodies?. Do the authors of this blog agree with Professor Mace et al? Are there any points on which they disagree with their report or on Roger Harrabin’s take on that report?
I will await a possible reply with interest. .
I’m not sure how a discussion makes progress between We’re all gonna die on one side and Everything will be okay on the other.
or between
We gotta stop doing everything and give all our money away and It’s all happened before and there’s nothing we can do about it anyway.
One side says relax, let’s monitor and learn while we can but the other side screams, lies, bullies, and ignores the laws.
Guess which side is which.
One side has all the money in the world, most of Hollywood, the major part of the media, most of the world’s politicians and they still can’t sell this “Big Lie.”
Why is that?
http://geology.utah.gov/surveynotes/gladasked/gladice_ages.htm
This site has some graphs showing Average Global Temperatures for the last 2.4B years. Temperatures range between 50°F to 75°F with the current temperature about 56°F.
A second graph Glacial-Interglacial Cycles Over The Past 450,000 years shows five Inter-Glacials during this period. Our current Inter-Glacial is the coldest of the five. (by maybe 15°F)
We could have a ways to go.
These were all natural climate changes. (unless you subscribe to divine intervention)
Lastly, wind turbines and solar panels will not reduce CO2 to any level that could lower the earth’s temperature.
Giving $B to tyrants and despots will not lower earth’s temperature.
Making billionaires out of Wall Street millionaires will not lower earth’s temperature.
Giving government trillions of dollars will not lower earth’s temperature.
Looks like Al Gore and the rest of the rich and famous show us how they fear CAGW by flying private jets around the globe from meeting to meeting to make rules for us to follow because we are killing the planet.
Where is the evidence that today’s climate is run away CAGW?
I am not trying to insult our guests but with so much money, so little evidence and so much lying and bullying there is almost no way I’d fall for it.
Is the globe warming. Maybe.
Can we change it? Just call me skeptical.
No-one should be tarred with being linked with Roger Harrabin.
Every group has it’s crazies.
Every group has it’s idiots.
And some groups have their truly wicked deceivers.
If your unlucky enough to be in such group you are still not responsible for the crazies, the idiots or Roger Harrabin.
If you want to do things differently go to the press and give them a full balanced status report on CAGW including all the uncertainties with scientific rebuttals to skeptics’ concerns. If you do this honestly we will find the common ground quicker.
‘since Swante Arrhenius, who began the politics of global warming with initial calculations of it’s possible existence and warnings about it’s potential dangers.’
Didn’t he actually predict benefits of the warming? http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/13/6995/
Re Richard M’s post above:
“People have lost their jobs for having a skeptical opinion.””
Here is a list of those forced from their institutions due to global warming thugism
George Taylor – Oregon State Climatologist
Sallie Baliunas – Harvard University
Pat Michaels – University of Virginia
Murry Salby – Macquarie University, Australia
Caleb Rossiter – Institute for Policy Studies
Nickolas Drapela, PhD – Oregon State University
Henrik Møller – Aalborg University, Denmark
So you get a free pass because you post on sceptic sites and have socialised with sceptics?
Give me a break.
Tamsin,
Well said.
Mob action is ugly no matter the mob or the cause.
Keep up the good work.
Tamsin Edwards & Richard Betts,
This is a very polite and sincere request for info that you offered to supply links to.
Please show a handful of links to the most salient examples where Richard Betts or you had sternly “stand up to [. . .] hate language” toward skeptics that comes from the supporters of the position that there is significant climate change from CO2 by burning fossil fuel.
Repeat – Kindly show us the links to quotes of Richard Betts’ and your most stern past efforts at stopping hate speech directed toward skeptics.
John
“Have you guys gone to activist web sites where skeptical comments are deleted and skeptics banned to voice your objections?” Was this an attempt at a serious question? How do you think would you see deleted comments?
A few of the sites that routinely do this are skepticalscience, Huffingtonpost, 350.org, NPR (including NPR’s ombudsman), Slate, Alternet, Common Dreams, Buzzflash, Mother Jones, Truthout, Firedoglake, Drudge Report, PJ Media, scienceofdoom, Real Climate, UK Guardian, Scientific American, Discover, The Atlantic.
There’s a propaganda aspect to climate change action and it might be appropriate to quote from the evil master of propaganda, Hitler, without offending anybody.
However I don’t believe climate scientists are part of any conspiracy, I support Tim Ball’s right to speak out his mind and my right to ignore his opinions.
There is a conspiracy of silence, where good men (and women) are afraid to speak out. I applaud Dr’s Ball, Betts and Edwards for speaking out.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
DrBall has been sued by two climate scientists for daring to speak up, so I am prepared to cut him a lot of slack. He has had the courage to speak up where a lot of lessor human beings have failed.
I would rather see Dr’s Betts and Edwards publish articles on WUWT about climate science, rather than spend their time criticizing the critics.
for example: when Dr Mann’s hockey stick was published on the cover of the IPCC report, it is my understanding that Dr. Mann was a recent graduate, and the hockey stick had not been replicated. this should have generated a large outcry from the scientific community; at the minimum a significant warning, because it was contrary to established science. but instead all we heard were accolades, and established science was overturned. the MWP and LIA disappeared, despite the numerous studies that confirmed their existence.
who spoke out?
or how about Judith Curry, the shameful way she was treated for daring to speak out about Climategate. Who spoke out about here treatment.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Absolutely ferdberple!
“But that is only because evil always wins through the strength of its splendid dupes; and there has in all ages been a disastrous alliance between abnormal innocence and abnormal sin.”
G.K. Chesterton Eugenics and Other Evils
Ferdberple – well said and that applies to all your comments.
This handwringing over being “nice” to the frauds and grant seekers doesn’t wash with me.
When I found out that the residential land we owned was to be surrounded by 131 40 story wind turbines I dared to publicly question the scientific basis for inflicting this disaster on us and our community. I was immediately branded a “denier”.
Tim Ball sums up my feelings to a T. The people peddling thermogeddon are only squealing, “pax, pax” because the truth is out and we have our collective foot on their throats.
… and the propaganda was what his post was all about. Yes, he quoted the “big lie” meme used so well by the leader of a huge, powerful government… originally Woodrow Wilson and the Progressives in the US. Everyone remembers Hitler and Goebbels using the technique… no one remembers or understands those techniques started with the US Progressives many, years earlier and copied by the Nat’l Socialists. Almost a century later the same Progressives are using the same techniques.
The sad part is that is exactly how the vast majority of the CAGW folks have been working for around 30 years and the skeptics (who every day are being proved to have been correct all along) have been vilified and shut out. Just because he quoted Hitler does not mean the quote was inaccurate…
Every professional scientist or engineer taught standard physics immediately sees that the IPCC climate models cannot predict climate. This is because the assumption of a single -18 deg C 360 degree OLR emitting zone (search 1981_Hansen_etal.pdf) should have never passed peer review. It provided negative heating in the two stream calculation offsetting imaginary ‘back radiation’. However, It also led to a 40% increase in atmospheric warming and tripling of the real GHE.
Furthermore, Figure 2.5 of Houghton’s ‘Physics of Atmospheres’ proves the Enhanced GHE cannot exist. This is because Lapse rate convection and lateral advection, mostly super-efficient condensation and evaporation, ensure near zero temperature difference between any surface element and local atmosphere!
If there were 157.5 W/m^2 atmospheric warming by surface IR, the ‘Clear Sky Atmospheric Greenhouse Factor’, for an emissivity of 0.75 and 16 deg C surface mean atmospheric temperature would be about 0.5 deg C and we’d have to wear gloves and scarf in the night time tropics!
This desperate propaganda by scientific losers is getting very boring. Perhaps they should be taken en masse behind the bike sheds for a good talking to by real scientists and engineers who actually do experiments, instead of pontificating on the basis of Sagan’s false science.
Right on. Thanks
Well said alecm. There certainly was deliberate deception.
I reject the notion that any comparison to nazis is out of bounds. This clearly benefits those who are using their methods or accept some part of their ideology.
The nazis were not obviously evil or insane. Everyone loves to show video of Hitler giving a speech like a madman, but translated into english, the ideas are quite ordinary.
My mother researched Quisling in detail and was surprised to find him to be an ordinary Norwegian.
I haven’t read Dr Ball piece, but I immediately see these similarities:
1) they both used science as a means of mass manipulation.
2) they both desired to stamp out opposition by ridicule and then by force
3) they both targeted children
4) they both had obvious totalitarian aims thinly hidden beneath the surface
5) they both are very anti capitalism and anti freedom
As I am at war with ENGOs on fishery issues, a parallel like battlefield, I can understand how someone would move to extremism to prove a point. My fight has been continuing for many years, calling for real science from the same agency that is constantly referred to here, NOAA.
Trying to present material to people that worship this agency, which is now controlled by ENGOs, is a frustrating exercise in futility.
I have also become militant and pointed in my engagements with politicians, and the corporate sold out enviro’s.
NOAA, oh yeah.
There was this Jim Hansen and 20 foot seas drowning NYC…due very soon I understand.
Thank goodness he’s been replaced with a calmer head.
oops
That’s NASA not NOAA
Parallels with Nazism? No, the original article simply quoted from Mein Kampf, which is something else entirely. The charge was willfull deception and the means needed to carry it out on a large scale. You don’t have to slaughter millions of people to use tactics that the Nazis first systematically used for their benefit. More mundane uses of their tactics are also possible. I didn’t read the intitial article and think that the IPCC was about to start rounding people up and putting them on cattle trucks just because Hitler’s name was used. I simply nodded my head about the incredible nature of humanity and it’s ability to be deceived.
While I totally agree with any effort to keep the climate debate on a civilized footing, it does not seem quite right to claim “Hitling” in this case. As an example of a way of lying to and dominating the masses, the quote from Mein Kampf is valid. I would think that it has been used in such contexts in a great number of articles and studies in the social sciences, so why not here? I can not see that the article has any specific accusations of warmists being nazis or anything like that.
Rather, it is some of the comments that seem to make this claim. Hitler is long since history, and one should be allowed to use this person as a source if one thinks it is relevant to the case in hand.
I agree. I wonder if RB and TE would also agree?
that is how I read Dr. Ball’s article. He wasn’t calling people Nazi’s. He was showing how the Big Lie works. The Nazi’s showed the world how it can be applied.
fredberple
… and the reply from Betts and Edwards shows how close to the bone Ball’s comment is!
A question of “if the cap fits” perhaps.
Two wrongs don’t make a right… and we are only responsible for ourselves.
I wasn’t outspoken enough on the original post.
I should have condemned the demonization of people whom I disagree with, more fully.
For that I apologise.
Yes. I’m very glad this post appeared.
you can’t apologize for something you didn’t do …
Actually I did.
The Methodist Worship Book has a Prayer of Confession that is used before taking Holy Communion. It contains a plea for forgiveness for “the good we have not done”.
Because there is an obligation to do the best you can.
I would like to ask the authors two questions:
(1) What is your best estimate for the climate sensitivity factor?
and (2) How many adjustable parameters exist in the climate models? By this I include initializing to the current climate over some period of time (how many pieces of information are used in the initialization?)
Thanks for any help, Jim Rose
The science is settled!
So isn’t it time we wound up the IPCC? Or is it only there for political reasons?
In its own words ‘we don’t do sceince ‘
Sorry I do not see how Dr Tim Ball’s post is in anyway offensive and neither did he call the alarmists Nazi’s as implied by Dr Betts and Dr Edwards.
He used an example of how people could be fooled by a big lie he could have used any other example from the Stalin era or middle ages where the King or Pope is God’s anoninted representative on earth.
The IPPC reports may well be the state of the art in man made global warming, although better men and women than me have shown otherwise. What cannot be called into question is the deception created by the summary for policy makers.
I paraphrase ” Hey guys get those names no ones going to check whether they have pHd’s or not. This was pre Kyoto.
I pose one other queation imagine if all the billions wasted on climate change research and subsidies had been spent saving lives in the third world would it be tens of people or millions of people?
The big lie of the Nazi’s, Stalin, Pol pot resulted in millions of dead.
The big lie of the climate change community resulted in ????????? still counting?
Yes, that is how I read it too. I guess AGW proponents don’t like being a target and read more into what was said. Well, news for them we have been subjected to abuse, Some have even said we should be executed, have our houses burned down, etc, etc. And they come here whinging over something that was not said nor implied.
If they genuinely want discussion, why not make a post here? explain your position. There are many here that will question it, some will ridicule it but if you are able to cope with that, then that is called ‘discussion’
This comment is a trifle misplaced, considering the authors of this very post.
Sorry M Courtney, but you cherry picked what you quoted. Man Bearpig asked the authors to make a post here that will “explain your position.” They have not done that yet. All they did was complain about the name calling while doing a little name calling themselves — “goose step backwards” indeed! We have people like the President of the United States linking us to the Nazis by calling us “deniers,” and they get upset about their side being called out for their use of propaganda? Both sides have resorted to ad homs. But if they really want to start a positive conversation, they should ignore the name-callers and state their position. Then we will have something to discuss and debate, unless, of course, they think the debate is over. In which case, there is nothing left to discuss, except why we think the world is flat and why we won’t accept their “established” science.
Louis, the hostility shown in the comments does not encourage the next stage of debate. There needs to be the appearance of respect – we aren’t giving that.
The authors of this article have stepped onto the away pitch. They’ve made a move that shows respect. That should be recognised.
MCourtney said:
“Louis, the hostility shown in the comments does not encourage the next stage of debate. There needs to be the appearance of respect – we aren’t giving that.
The authors of this article have stepped onto the away pitch. They’ve made a move that shows respect. That should be recognised.”
No they haven’t. A move of respect would be to argue that everyone including their side has made over the top statements and to point out their bona fides. Instead this entire piece is whinging that someone on the other side called them names and bluntly states that ‘Denier’ really isn’t all that bad, so we should just get over being upset to be called that. Do the authors chastise members from their ‘side’ when they write ridiculous hit pieces on skeptics? Do they reject the censorship at realclimate or skeptical science? Did they raise a cry about Lewandusky’s hit pieces?
They can clean up their own house first, if they want to pretend that they have the moral high ground here.
Ummm, how on Earth is the Pope’s election an example of the Big Lie? I think this post is generally about unwarranted insults, no?
that is how I read Dr. Ball’s article. He wasn’t calling people Nazi’s. He was showing how the Big Lie works. The Nazi’s showed the world how it can be applied.
I have been talking to my friends about AGW and using a lot of information from WUWT to support my conclusion that CO2 has nothing to do with Global Warming. One of the questions I always get is what is the motivation behind AGW proponents to distort science? Why would our President and many congressional leaders get on the AGW bandwagon if it will lead to de-industrializing our country and create economic chaos without solving any problems? A good question and one that Dr. Ball is attempting to answer. Does the answer come from the Club of Rome and others in the U.N. who would like to see one world government? Are Maurice Strong, Al Gore, John Holder and others the catalyst of this movement?
It all sounds so much like a conspiracy theory that it is hard to believe. So what is the answer? These people aren’t stupid. It is clear to me that those that promote the idea of AGW have an agenda that is not based in science. Wasn’t that the crux of Dr. Ball’s argument?
No ferdberple, I think people misunderstand, Hitler is explaining how others employ the big lie. Its not a statement of how he is going to do it. This is what makes the comparison so toxic
And yes I read Mein Kampf, Or rather tried to. Had to give up.
michael
“It all sounds so much like a conspiracy theory that it is hard to believe. So what is the answer? ”
Stupidity.
There is no smart evil.
Evil is layers and layers of stupidity.
People who are stupid will do anything to solve their imagined problems-
and such madness could be interpreted by others as being intelligent.
Action may be admirable and Hitler was a man of action- hence admired by the
German people, but he was also a certifiable idiot- despite some claims of him
being a genius.
Though power will tend make a person less intelligent- as power can be a potent
distraction.
It’s good that Tamsin and Richard were willing to formally reply to Tim Ball’s post. Even better that Anthony posts their reply. My experience is that it is more constructive to assume those who disagree with you do so in good faith than to assume they are simply ‘evil’, ‘corrupt’, ‘liars’, etc.
I trust Tamsin and Richard will have a similar reaction, and make similar comments, when they hear or read comments made about ‘deniers’ by climate scientists and green activists which are comparable (or worse!) than Tim Ball’s unfortunate comments.
Even people of good will can pursue evil ends.
Just because they are polite while trying to destroy my families standard of living, doesn’t make them good people.
I agree – name calling on either side does the debate no favours and science a disservice. There is a political dimension to climate science – obviously, and it is a shame that the political dimension and the imperatives that go with it emerged so early in the development of what is still a very immature discipline. It is nonsense to paint all climate scientists as charlatans just as it is to paint ‘skeptics’ as numskulls in the pay of big oil. Professor Betts and Dr Edwards make a very worthwhile riposte to the Ball article – I thought it was OTT and although I am more than happy to ‘mix it’ in academic debate I felt that the author went well beyond the limit of what is acceptable.
Like many readers of your excellent blog, Anthony, I do hope that your personal travails are being resolved.
The evidence I’m sorry, is that overwhelmingly the name calling has been against sceptics. So, e.g. the BBC twice likened sceptics to paedophiles. This was seen as acceptable by the BBC – in contrast when some minor blogger likened the way Penn cleared a paedophile to their behaviour with Mann (not actually likening the two) Mann sued.
The simple truth I have observed is that sceptics usually talk about the science – and alarmist with no leg to stand on with the science usually resort to responding with personal attacks
There is absolutely no comparison between the appalling NAZI style abuse of power by the very higher echelons of the alarmist organisations and the almost infinitesimal name calling by a very view individual sceptics.
Thanks Bob!
Tamsin. Still waiting for those links to your good works . In case you just forgot , you said ” We have various links we can point you to”
Well point to them.
Suspect it will be a long wait Jim. To this point they’ve responded only to posts that support their statement.
I am glad that you see that the Betts/Edwards response was OTT. But I wonder how clear you have made your opinion that clisci is “still a “very immature discipline” ?
Well, Mr Farmer, I will make an exception and reply to someone who uses a pseudonym. You clearly haven’t put my name into the search bar for this site. That would have saved you the trouble of commenting.
Thank you, Tamsin and Richard, for your post and your concerns.
And thank you, Anthony, for posting it.
Cheers
PS: To those celebrating the holiday today, Happy Thanksgiving. And to everyone else, have a great day.
and thank you Bob
Tamsin: Have you ever considered that, although you are trying to be objective and scientific, your work and that of other climate scientists is being used and abused by politicians in control of the entire operation? Vide the comparison of the Summary for Policy Makers with the substance of the scientific portion of IPCC reports.
Tamsin I think you over reacted Adolf did not invent psychology he just used to deploy his chosen political regime and Tim was not in any way implying that some folk involved in the climate arena had certain unwelcome tendencies but I did view your spat with Matt Ridley on Newsnight and you said as I remember to Matt “your are a journalist” or words to that effect, implication Matt was not really qualified even to be involved in the debate but of course you are?
It is not warming, fact, all climate models have failed, fact. Your special subject is climate modelling so I would not be surprised that you need to reinforce yours and everyone else’s conviction that they are valid when the evidence to date would encourage anyone with a modicum of interest that to recognise that their predictive or projective ability is zero therefore why should the taxpayer continue to fund this malady?
“To capture the public imagination we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and little mention of any doubts one might have. Each of us has to strike the right balance between being effective and being honest.’ Dr Stephen Schneider, Discover October 1989.
The IPCC came into being in 1989 and since that time the IPCC and those involved have been promoting the idea that for all of that time the planet has been warming and that it is about to get much worse whilst observations have fundamentally contradicted that belief and that assertion.
Matt Ridley asked the question he is a luke warmer and likes to sit on the fence by you declined to recognise the simple fact that for the last 18 years and 1 month it has not warmed whereas even the IPCC and our Met office have at least tried to dignify their rattled flawed rhetoric by reluctantly admitting that it just is not warmed and therefore climate modelling as a discipline is ridiculed.
Even now forecasting weather remains no better than chance yet predicated on Co2 you would have us believe that we can predict or project how our climate will change in 100 years time when over the past 26 years the evidence is that you cannot.
This morning the Today program on the BBC touted yet another Royal Society report based upon the Malthusian concept that we were outgrowing our planet, there would be no food and warming would be unstoppable because of atmospheric Co2 all based upon computer modelling without any recognition that observation contradicts this assumption.
When climate modellers as a group begin to face reality and cease making fear laden reports then and only then will their contribution be valid.
Back atcha Bob.
A lot of terrible things are done in the name of climate, such as biofuel subsidies. Even former UN personnel admits biofuel subsidies hurt poor people http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/nov/26/burning-food-crops-biofuels-crime-humanity .
Alarmists justify such ugliness on the grounds that a little harm now is better than far greater harm in the future. One way to derail such rationalisation is to dismantle the claims of “far greater harm in the future”.
But we also need to make sure people fully understand the magnitude of the harm their actions cause, and how much worse it could become.
Rric,
Where’s bloody Al Gore in this. Oh sorry, forgot. A socialist thing. *wink*
Here’s some more Nazi stuff for you to choke on, Mr Betts. Let’s see more of that and less silly dinner parties with fraud deniers.
Lessons from anti progress ideology
“We recognize that separating humanity from nature, from the whole of life, leads to humankind’s own destruction and to the death of nations. Only through a re-integration of humanity into the whole of nature can our people be made stronger. That is the fundamental point of the biological tasks of our age. Humankind alone is no longer the focus of thought, but rather life as a whole . . . This striving toward connectedness with the totality of life, with nature itself, a nature into which we are born, this is the deepest meaning and the true essence of National Socialist thought.”
Ernst Lehmann, Biologischer Wille. Wege und Ziele biologischer Arbeit im neuen Reich, München, 1934
alturl.com/xxmqe
Eric
Agw stand on the premise of that very seperation of humanity from nature.. 🙂
Man-made and all that, you know.
Erns seems to have got it right after all, as far as that goes (the own destruction).
The only possible separation of humankind from nature happends in the fictitious AGW idea or a fictitious Nazi propaganda and dogma…….and we know the price incurred and payed in the case of the Nazis.
cheers
Whiten, Eric’s point is that the rhetoric is very similar.
Viking
My point is that is more than similar, quasy the same… probably even worse than:-)
the chutzpah!
these guys were part of a group that promoted the big lie…over and over again, using goebbels’ techniques. if they get compared to a historical figure once in a while (like george bush had been, numerous times) well, so be it.
no tears shed here.
Davideisensradt. Don’t ever forget that Goebbel was a doctor also. You are right on other than that. I would like to know from Anthony what he thought was “over the top”. The topic that Tim Ball was writing about is more important than all the science and mathematics because most of the voters who elect the politicians that do us the most harm do not understand the science. They believe the MSM. The MSM believe NASA, NOAA, GISS on and on and on. When I try to convince some voters that they are wrong the first thing I am asked to explain is why would these scientist who work for these important institutions tell us lies. We need some good explanations for the “WHY” and how could so many be so very wrong. Has this kind of thing ever happened before. Dr Ball was kind enough to give us his ideas and also ask the readers for theirs. So far he got nearly 600 (565 for the nit picking mathematicians who just love to show off their stuff). My guess is there will be one less skeptic doctor and two more warmist doctors on this site. It is doctors and professors and scientist that have brought on this calamity and it is going to take them to stop it. The “let’s be nice plan” does not work. Plenty of good evidence for that. Start with Neville Chamberlain. Mr peace in our time waving that letter for Adolf.
A step backwards? Come on Anothony. What was over the top?
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Sinclair Upton
Upton Sinclair
Now I detest Warming W……s as much as the next chap but, fair dos, invoking Neville Chamberlain is not justified. He was not a fool or a coward or a scoundrel. He tried his best to avoid a catastrophic war and he should not be condemned for failing to foresee the future. Wisdom in retrospect is not impressive.
clubfooted, goebbels was as well, IIRC.
Evans Ronald. I did not call PM Chamberlain a fool, coward or a scoundrel. You have done what many others on this thread have done and that is saying that something was said that wasnt. My point was that appeasement doesn’t work. I think that if our president FDR would have had first rate military instead of 17th and he went with PM Chamberlain to talk with AH, WW2 could have been avoided. That could have saved millions of lives and gallons of gasoline.
Evans R says “Wisdom in retrospect is not impressive”
============================================
On the other hand, learning from the past is not only impressive, but essential.
“Such is the nature of the Tyrant, when he first appears , he is a protector.” (Plato)
Political Power gained through ANY means IS the history of mankind. A politician failing to honestly representing to the general public their true goal, power OVER others as well as wealth, fits the definition of a “conspiracy”, the synonyms are: plot, intrigue, cabal refer to surreptitious or covert schemes to accomplish some end, most often an illegal, evil or simply immoral one.
The long list of quotes from leaders of the IPCC and “Green” industry aptly demonstrate the political nature of CAGW, as they request ever more funds and central power over nations. That politicians lie, that is conspire to misrepresent their motives, should not be considered on outrageous charge. That some innocent people believe the lies, should likewise, not be considered shocking. That observers of this phenomena as applied to the promoters of CAGW, should find similarities to the past methods of crowd control and public persuasion used by past totalitarian statist with tyrannical aims, is also not surprising.
The economic harm of making energy expensive is, in my view, a terrible and highly immoral crime against humanity. Economic collapse invariably lead to wars. This struggle for international control over the multi trillion dollar energy market (the largest monetary market in the world) ad the associated power inherent in taxing the very air humankind breathes, is, in my view, highly immoral, and likely to end in catastrophic failure of a breaking world.
Anthony Watts, since Tim Ball article does little more then raise the same concern as my above post, please consider taking back your “over the top” label. In my view it is a necessary consideration well supported by the evidence, and human nature as seen repeatedly in human history.
Please apply Eschenbach rule and quote precisely where Ball accuses Alarmists of being Nazis.
The answer is that he didn’t – he was saying that the methodology of the ‘Big L ie’ was described by Hitler in Mein Kampf and that the same ‘Big L ie’ methodology was being used by politicians basing their l ies on the projections from the failed models of climate scientists.
Exactly. The methodology is the same. It was probably a mistake to mention Hitler, because that gives the AGW proponents the chance to cry foul and deflect. There certainly has to be a paper on the big lie theory.
We at WUWT were also disappointed that so few climate scientists distanced themselves from views such as those summarized here-
http://joannenova.com.au/2010/05/throwing-the-hate-crime-grenade/
Up-thread I said I agreed fully with Richards and Tamsin’s comments. However it does take two to tango and both ‘sides’ – must stop their silly and childish name calling and innuendo and work more constructively to determine whether the ups and downs of our climate can be attributed to mans efforts or whether we are a bystander.
In that respect the late great Hubert Lamb-first Director of CRU- said this shortly before his death;
“The idea of climate change has at last taken on with the public after generations which assumed that climate could be taken as constant. But it is easy to notice the common assumption that mans science and modern industry and technology are now so powerful that any change of climate or the environment must be due to us. It is good for us to be more alert and responsible in our treatment of the environment, but not to have a distorted view of our own importance. Above all, we need more knowledge, education and understanding in these matters.”
Hubert Lamb December 1994
He also said about historic temperature reconstructions that ‘We can understand the tendency but not the precision.’ This relates to the overconfidence I referenced in my earlier post. We don’t know to tenths of a degree the ‘global’ temperature’ Sea Surface temperatures or Deep ocean Temperatures (amongst many other matrix) and should stop proclaiming we do.
Richard Betts-a very reasonable person in my view- was at the same climate conference in Exeter as I was when he heard Thomas Stocker say we did not have the technology to measure the temperature of the deep oceans-referring to anything below 2000 metres. The average ocean depth is 4000 metres.
tonyb
Hubert Lamb also saw the way his climate unit was being manipulated by the UKMO and others into the now well known “humans and captilism are evils and must be destroyed. He was very, very disappointed as am I. I remember the UKMO before this scam became their lifeblood. It was honerable, gentille and honest.
Bravo.
Two wrongs do not make a right … but there is certainly an overabundance of hypocrisy inherent in the two authors’ position when they choose to take on Dr. Ball splinter in the eye, and utterly ignore the world-sized log in their own. Chris Y’s noting of the post and Joanne Nova’s blog is timely and dead on target. Frankly, Anthony, you would do well to repost it to WUWT as a further counterpoint in this debate.
I would also say that calling something what it is – as in comparing AGW tactics to “the big lie” as proposed by that most unfortunate and evil of men in his seminal book – is hardly an invalid or inappropriate action. George Santayana’s maxim is timely here: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
Food for thought, my friends, as we consider our blessings – among them the gift of freedom of speech – on this Thanksgiving day.
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
Indeed. So it’s definitely ironic that so many people, including you, have no idea that Hitler was not “promoting” the ‘big lie’ but was instead complaining about its usage against the German people.
I was new to the online world then – hadn’t yet plucked up the courage to post at Bishop Hill. Needless to say I don’t find it productive or helpful to call sceptics Nazi appeasers etc either!
Hello Dr. Tamsin Edwards.
Let me thank you first for the time and effort towards this blog post.
Is good and productive to have as large as possible a spectrum of opinions and conclusions from people like you and Dr. Tim Ball, even in the case while such opinions contrary to each other. Is productive I think, while pluralism in a given subject is allowed without projudice.
Said all this, in my opinion, even while I may have some reservation about Dr. Tim Ball’s blog posts in general, I still don’t think the one blog post in question was about name calling or demonisation. After all Nazis were humans too.
Forgetting and ignoring the history or prohibiting historical comparisions (for whatever reason) may and could lead to repetance of same or similar mistakes and crimes.
In my opinion also seems to be productive enough to highlight a matter in such a view point……..you see you here and participating by initiating and expressing an argument and opinion in accord to Dr. Ball’s opinion.
I myself appreciate it a lot…..and hopefully you and Professor Betts will be more inclined in the future to participate and engage with your own blog posts here at WUWT, especially in scientific themes about climate and Climatology, if that won’t be to much for you. Every little helps, I think.
Now if I may ask one question.
What would you call the actions of scientists, mostly in the field of Climatology, actions that lead and cause manipulation, destruction, loss and jeopardising of actual real raw climate data ??! (regardless of the motive)(especially in the case of such unprecedented climatic condition)
Thanks
cheers
Could you not pluck up the courage to object to the use of “denier” other than on sceptic sites?
Rather than say you do not find it “productive or helpful to call sceptics Nazi appeasers” could you not just say that it is wrong?
A big step forward would be if “climate scientists” were to stop relying on GIGO models and instead stuck to collecting data in the real world. The Earth is a very large and complex system which has only been studied with modern instruments for a very short period. My take on all that I’ve read is that we still know very little about how our planet works and what is most needed is large volumes of data collected over long periods of time covering all the ways in which energy flows around our planet. Only then will we be able to make sense of any changes which are happening.
It would be a big step forward if “climate scientists” stopped claiming to be able to predict the coming apocalypse based on such scant information. It just makes them look like a bunch of religious nuts wearing “The End Is Nigh!” sandwich boards, shouting at passers-by to “Repent or else”.
+1
Prof Richard Betts, Dr Tamsin Edwards: “It’s especially frustrating to see him write this so soon after the productive dinner at Nic Lewis’s place, where the attendees agreed on the need to depolarise and detoxify the climate discussion.”
If you wanted to detoxify the discussion then you need to admit we have been right all along that the climate models could not predict the climate.
Instead, the reports after those meetings were completely intolerable and suggested that far from accepting that we have always been right, you or someone in your circle suggested sceptics had somehow changed our views and become part of your delusional “consensus”.
Sceptics don’t want consensus! We just want good science. And when you and your circle are prepared to accept that and reach the standards of good science that is necessary if people or governments are to rely on your advice that is: science substantiated by the facts – you will not only be a sceptic but also a real scientist.
Agreed! +1
RB and TE are not real scientists. Only in it for the money.
Dame Julia: “Bend over, Mr Betts!”
RB: “Yes, Ma’am”
Agreed +1
PS- Sceptics come in many forms, be they right or left(I would be classified) or middle/Lukewarmers, we only seek the truth.
Truth is OUR 3% of a trace gas(CO2) does not control the planets temperature OR weather.
PPS- The billion a day our world pays for post modern soothsayer/CAGWism, is now NOT going to helping the 2,000.000 dying of malnutrition a year on this planet, not including those lacking clean water and cheap energy to lift themselves out of poverty and death using CO2 omitting energy sources is a crime against humanity.
Sneering at skeptics for crying “Hoax!” is in itself a propaganda technique. I’ve seen thousands of comments where skeptics are accused of being conspiracists without them ever even mentioning the subject. It’s a favored pejorative among Alarmists.