Splicing Clouds

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

So once again, I have donned my Don Quixote armor and continued my quest for a ~11-year sunspot-related solar signal in some surface weather dataset. My plan for the quest has been simple. It is based on the fact that all of the phenomena commonly credited with affecting the temperature, such as cosmic rays, the solar wind, changes in heliomagnetism, changes in extreme ultraviolet (EUV), or changes in total solar irradiation (TSI), all vary in phase with the sunspots. As a result, if there is no sunspot cycle visible in the terrestrial surface weather datasets, then we can assume that none of those phenomena are affecting the dataset.

To date I’ve looked for an 11-year cycle in local sea level datasets, river flow datasets, beryllium datasets, global surface temperatures, lower tropospheric temperatures, global sea levels, Nile River levels, and a bunch more surface datasets. I have looked at literally dozens of measures of the weather, and I’ve found … well … nothing.

Now, does this mean that the sunspot cycles have no effect on the weather? Absolutely not, you can’t prove a negative in any case. It just means, I haven’t found the evidence to support the claims that some weather phenomena somewhere follows the sunspots. It may still be there, and so I continue looking.

I freely admit that I entered upon this quest with a preconception of what I’d find … but not the preconception I’m often accused of having. What many people may not realize is that I thought this quest would be easy. I believed that the evidence of a sunspot-climate connection wouldn’t be hard to find. Back in 2008 I wrote:

There are strong suggestions that cloud cover is influenced by the 22-year solar Hale magnetic cycle.

And given the number of places I’d read the claim that sunspots influence the climate, I figured it would be no problem to find surface weather datasets that showed some correlation with the 11 or the 22-year sunspot cycle. But to my great surprise, I’ve not been able to come up with a single surface weather dataset of any kind which shows such effects.

In this quest, I have relied mostly on a couple of methods to determine if the sunspot cycles are present. One is the cross-correlation analysis. This shows how well correlated two time series are at a variety of time lags. It helps in distinguishing real from random results—for example, if the correlations are as great for sunspots lagging the climate as they are for sunspots leading the climate, you’ve got problems.

Note that there is an inherent problem when looking for correlations with a signal like sunspots, which has a strong cyclical nature and high autocorrelation. This is that you will get what look like real correlations when you correlate sunspots with a wide range of random data. In addition, again because of the strong cyclical nature of sunspots, whatever correlations you find you’ll also find around eleven years later. As a result, you have to include an adjustment for autocorrelation when you calculate the statistical significance of your results, or you need to do a Monte Carlo analysis of the question.

The other method that I rely on is the periodogram. This is an analysis of the underlying cycles in the data itself. For example, here are the sunspots since 1749:

monthly sunspots 1749 2014Figure 1. Monthly sunspots since 1749. Pre-1947 values have been increased by 20% to bring them into line with the modern counts, as has been repeated discussed here at WUWT. It makes little difference for the analysis.

And here is the periodogram of the sunspots shown above:

periodogram monthly sunspots 1749 2014Figure 2. Periodogram of monthly sunspots. A periodogram shows the strength of each of the component cycles. The units are the percentage of the range of the data (range of individual cycle divided by range of the data. Due to popular demand, the data is windowed with a Hanning window.

Note that there is a fairly broad peak with the largest value at 11.2 years, and a secondary narrow peak at 10 years. So if we find these kinds of signals in any surface weather dataset, that would be good evidence that there is a connection to either the sunspots, or to some phenomenon that varies in phase with the sunspot cycle, such as cosmic rays or TSI.

With that as prologue, let me show the latest dataset I’ve been investigating. This is US station records showing the percentage of clouds. The cloud data are from 192 locations scattered around the US. As is my custom, I started out by looking at each and every one of the 192 records in the dataset. Here is a sample of ten of them:

ten of the 192 cloud recordsFigure 3. Ten of the individual cloud records in the dataset. 

When I looked at that, I was surprised by the trends. To be sure, the scale is different for each panel, which emphasizes the trends. But the same results are visible in the average of the dataset.

average change us clouds 1900 1987 rebuildFigure 4. Average of all of the 192 cloud datasets. Unfortunately, the data ends in 1987. The data is calculated as the cumulative sum of the means of the first differences (monthly changes) of all available datasets. Note that in this case, this first-difference method shows little variation in the period 1900-1987 from a simple mean of the data (not shown).

Now this is what I call an interesting result. I would never have guessed that the cloud cover in the US was about 10% greater in the 1980s compared with the 1920s. I do find it interesting that in response to the rapid US surface temperature rise during the 1930s and 1940s, the cloud cover acted to minimize the change by increasing quite rapidly.

However, that’s just evidence in support of my hypothesis that the clouds (and other emergent phenomena) act to minimize changes in temperature. It says nothing about whether there is a solar signal there or not. To determine that, I calculated the periodogram for the average cloud percentages shown in Figure 4.

periodogram us average cloud percentageFigure 5. Periodogram, average of US station data.

As you can see, there is very little in the way of power in the range from five to twenty-five years … no sign of a solar signal.

The situation with the individual datasets is much the same. There are a variety of signals, but again nothing in the range from five to twenty-five years exceeds about 5% of the total signal. Here is a typical set of four:

periodogram four station cloud percentageFigure 6. Periodograms showing the strength of the various cycle lengths, for four individual stations.

As you can see, there is quite a bit of variation in the individual records. Some have strong annual cycles, while others have equal-sized annual and six-month cycles. And some show only a six-month cycle, with no clear annual cycle. This is interesting, because it allows us to identify those stations which have strong thermally-driven summer thunderstorms. They show strong six-month cycles.

But to return to the sunspots, none of the stations shows any significant strength in the range from five to twenty-five years, it’s all down in the weeds, and each of them is different.

So I had to conclude once again that the solar signal is simply not visible in these cloud datasets.

Once I was done looking at the solar question, I got to thinking about the fact that the ground station cloud dataset ends in 1987. I realized that the ISCCP satellite dataset started in 1983 … giving a 53-month overlap. So I decided to see what the ISCCP dataset had to say about the US clouds. Since the ISCCP dataset is gridded, it is a matter of extracting just the land data in the area covered by the US stations. I started by looking at the two datasets during the period of the overlap:

closeup of overlap station and satellite cloudFigure 7. Overlap of the two cloud coverage datasets, one being the average of 184 ground station records (green), and one from the ISCCP satellite data (blue). In the raw form, the two are offset by only about one percent. As a result, I have rebaselined the ground station data upwards by about one percent to match the ISCCP data during the period of the overlap.

Now, I have to say that I was very impressed by the agreement between the two datasets. I had expected to find much poorer correlation. But in fact, by and large the two datasets are in surprisingly good agreement.

As a result, I think that we are justified in splicing the two datasets together, so that we can get a long-term record of the US clouds. Here is that record.

us cloud cover percentageFigure 8. Spliced data, with the early data from the ground stations and the late data from the ISCCP satellite. I used the average of the two datasets during the period of the overlap.

Now, this is a fascinating graph containing lots of unanswered question. It puts the ISCCP data (black and red) into a most interesting long-term context. When looking at just the ISPPC data it seems as if the cloud coverage was falling. But in the longer context, it can be seen that this kind of variation has been going on since about 1960.

I draw no great conclusions from this, except that overall, as the US warmed post-1930, the US cloud coverage rose as well. Go figure …

One reason I’m reluctant to draw many conclusions about this graph of the clouds is a curious one. In science, it is very difficult to demonstrate causality. However, a very smart man named Granger realized that we can demonstrate a weaker form of causality, called “Granger causality”.

The essence of the idea of Granger causality is that if having historical information about phenomenon A allows us to significantly improve our predictions of phenomenon B, then A is said to “Granger-cause” B. Makes sense to me. If knowing historical cloud cover allows us to improve our predictions of temperature, then cloud cover would be said to “Granger-cause” temperature.

However, there’s an oddity of Granger causation, which is that there are not just three, but four possible states, viz:

1) Neither variable A nor variable B Granger-causes the other, or

2) Variable A Granger-causes variable B, or

3) Variable B Granger-causes variable A, or finally

4) Variable A Granger-causes variable B AND variable B Granger-causes variable A.

So … care to guess the Granger relationship between temperature and clouds? Yep, you’re right, it’s choice 4) … each one Granger-causes the other one. Clouds affect the temperature, and temperature affects the clouds. Knowing the history of either one helps us to predict the next step of the other one. It’s just another demonstration of Murphy’s Corollary, which is that “Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.” Which definitely makes it hard to draw lots of conclusions.

In any case, that’s all the fun I’m legally allowed to have in one twenty-four-hour period. So to keep the future full of interest, let me put out a request for people to send me a link to a dataset. What dataset? Why, of course, the surface weather dataset that you think most clearly shows the sunspot-related solar influence.

A few notes about the kinds of datasets I’m looking for.

First, I’m asking what you think is the very best dataset, the dataset that actually contains the clearest evidence for the solar signal. Please don’t send me links to ten datasets. I don’t have graduate students or assistants and I do have a day job pounding nails. So please, choose your best evidence to make your best case.

Note that I’m not asking for studies, I’m asking for observational data. I’m not interested in any of the hundreds of studies out there that claim to find a solar signal in some surface climate dataset, like my favorite study. That was the one that found the solar signal … in the ring widths of one single tree in Chile. Seriously, one single tree, the study is out there, and somebody sent it to me claiming it was evidence.

Here’s the issue. Every study that I’ve looked at has had serious and often horrendous problems, and I’m sick of digging through the trash looking for a diamond. In any case, no matter what the study may claim, I’m gonna have to do the analysis myself. And to do that, I don’t need the study—all I need is the link to the dataset.

Next, please provide a link to the exact dataset itself. I don’t want to guess which dataset you are referring to, or choose from among a dozen datasets on some web page, or have to google some obscure name.

Next, please no “reanalysis data” from NCAR or NCEP or anywhere. Let me explain the problem with using what is laughably called “reanalysis data” from NCAR or NCEP in any analysis of solar effects. The “reanalysis data” is not data at all. Instead, it is the output of a computer model. Now, I’m not an opponent of computer models, I’ve both written and also used lots of computer models. The problem is that the current generation of climate models are quite linear … but nature is antilinear.

Now, for some kinds of analyses this is not a big problem, but this flaw makes model output useless for some specific applications. In particular, since the model outputs are some kind of lagged linear transformation of the inputs, in general whatever you put in the front end of a climate model will be visible in the output … and downward solar radiation flux is most assuredly an input to the reanalysis models. Since the models are linear, this means that there is a very good chance that we will find a solar signal in the output of the reanalysis models, that we’ll see a sunspot-related wiggle in the so-called “reanalysis data” … but unfortunately finding that signal in the computer output means absolutely nothing about the extremely non-linear real world. So please, if it says NCEP or NCAR or “reanalysis” anywhere, don’t bother sending it.

Finally, as a radio amateur I’m well aware of the solar effect on the ionosphere. Up there where there is one molecule per cubic ohmmeter or somesuch miniscule number, and it’s not atmosphere as we know it but a plasma of ionized gases, yes, I agree that the sun has effects. However, I can find no evidence that those effects make it down to affect the weather where we live, at the surface. Might do so, but I haven’t seen it yet. This is why I’ve asked for surface datasets, because I’ve never found the claimed 11-year cycles down here at the bottom of the gravity well.

So with those exceptions, you’re free to send any of a host of surface datasets that you think have a sunspot signal—sea level, rainfall, river flow, lake levels, temperature, atmospheric pressure, river flow and many more, the choice is up to you.

Now, there is a commenter who objects strongly whenever I ask people to send me their best evidence. He claims I’m asking him to do the research that I should be doing. But all I’m asking for is a dataset—I am the person who has to do the research. The problem is, there are hundreds and hundreds of datasets out there, and my time is short. I don’t have time to analyze them all. So I’m asking for your assistance in winnowing the wheat from the chaff. If you don’t like my asking for assistance in this process, please, just ignore the post. Raising the same objections once again won’t burnish your reputation.

In addition, I see this as a chance for you guys to definitively show everyone that there actually is a sunspot-related signal that makes it down here to the surface where we live. So I invite you—bring out your best dataset. I’ve just looked at the US cloud record and found nothing … your turn.

Regarding the clouds, I walked this evening with the gorgeous ex-fiancee along the western edge of Bodega Bay. The cold front that brought us welcome rain earlier in the day was just past, and so we got to look east across the Bay at the back side of the cold front. Mostly it was kind of a wiggly stratus, an unusual formation. Out to the west, there was clear sky, and the late evening sun from behind us lit up the clouds above and the hills below. Looking at that blue, clean-washed piece of sky, I was reminded of the scientifically accurate words of the poet  about clouds:

 I am the daughter of Earth and Water,

And the nursling of the Sky;

I pass through the pores of the ocean and shores;

I change, but I cannot die.

For after the rain when with never a stain

The pavilion of Heaven is bare,

And the winds and sunbeams with their convex gleams

Build up the blue dome of air,

I silently laugh at my own cenotaph,

And out of the caverns of rain,

Like a child from the womb, like a ghost from the tomb,

I arise and unbuild it again.

Best regards to everyone, keep on unbuilding,

w.

MY REQUEST: If you disagree with someone (highly unlikely, I know, but work with me here), please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. That will let everyone know just what you think is incorrect.

MY POSITION: Note that I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the earth. It does affect the earth in a host of ways, and we can see that every dawn.

What I AM saying is that I have never found a significant sunspot-related ~11 year signal in any surface weather-related dataset. Doesn’t mean it’s not there somewhere, just means I haven’t found it yet. If you think it’s there … this is your chance to identify the dataset which contains the signal.

DATA: the ISCCP D2 cloud coverage data is here, the US ground station cloud coverage data is here, and the sunspot data (unadjusted) is here.

CATALOG: all of the ISCCP data is indexed here. Took me a while to find it, because it’s on the NOAA website.

CODE: R computer code, along with some of the collated data, is here as a zipped folder. The code is all there. However, I’d describe it as user-aggressive … and like all of my code, it’s not written to run from top to bottom. It also contains a lot of other things that don’t make it into the final report, various analyses and graphs. I believe that all of the code and functions are there to produce all of the graphics and analyses above. If not, let me know.

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November 2, 2014 11:33 am

Willis you have never presented any hard data to support all the many claims you make about the climate system, nor have you shown any of my claims are not correct.
For example explain why your climate governor appeared some 10000 years ago and where as it prior to that time?
Show some data that shows an increasing global temperature trend over a long period of time with a prolonged solar minimum condition.

November 2, 2014 11:36 am

For example explain why your climate governor appeared some 10000 years ago and where was it prior to that time? correction to my previous post

Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
November 2, 2014 6:44 pm

Salvatore,
The nature of the climate governor is it is effective within certain limits only.
1) At the hot end, the equatorial region clouds up and shades the surface (cooling), and convection quickly raises the warm moist air up into the upper troposphere where, essentially punching through the zone where CO2 LWIR absorption would otherwise take place, it condenses releasing latent heat of vaporization and this heat is high enough that much of it escapes out into space. This causes the heating to be interrupted
2) With cooling, the clouds clear exposing the sea more to the sun and evaporation and convective heat loss under the cooler conditions is reduced thereby allowing heat to build up again. However, the cool end is where the limitation exists. If through some mechanism such as a Milankovich cycle, the cooling continues, with all the clouds already gone and convective heat loss reduced, there is nothing else to bring into play to save the planet from continued cooling. Bingo, we go into an ice age.
I hope this helps you understand how the ‘governor’ works and its limitation.

eyesonu
Reply to  Gary Pearse
November 2, 2014 8:16 pm

Gary Pearse
======
Your comment may be much more important than many realize with regards to Willis’ thermostatic hypothesis.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 3:14 pm

How did you miss the link given right before that table? Were you in such a hurry to dismiss the data that you couldn’t be bothered to read the whole comment?
But as I’ve commented before, had you ever actually studied climatology, you’d have recognized that series right away (besides which it has been posted in this very blog many times before). Same as you would not have imagined that you discovered tropical cloud formation, as some here have been led to believe falsely, which Roy Spencer showed you from old studies describing the effect.
The time you spend trying to reinvent the wheel could IMO be better spent learning basic climatology before commenting on a discipline that some here have spent decades studying.

Reply to  sturgishooper
November 3, 2014 6:45 pm

Not ad hominem when stating relevant facts.
You seriously misrepresent the record when you claim to have been published in Nature, implying a peer-reviewed paper. Nature printed a comment by you. It’s pathetic that you equate that with having had a research article accepted for publication. It’s akin with Mann claiming a Nobel Prize. You should be ashamed.
No article of mine has ever been published in Nature, I’ll grant you, but then neither has one by you, and I’ve never submitted one. I have however published dozens of scientific articles, so jealous, I’m not. Amused, yes.

Toto
November 2, 2014 12:35 pm

So once again, I have donned my Don Quijote armor and continued my quest

Everyone knows the metaphor for futile causes; few have read the book. “Don Quijote” is a fantastic book for those who have the patience to read a very long book. Part One is a tragedy/comedy about what we would now call noble cause corruption. Don Quijote wants to be noble and do good, but being rather naive, he always makes it worse for those he is trying to help and doesn’t realize it.

Reply to  Toto
November 2, 2014 6:17 pm

I read the book many years ago and enjoyed every page.

bones
November 2, 2014 12:51 pm

Willis,
I think that everyone would agree that any climate signals associated with solar cycles would probably be small and buried in noisy data. Further, only data since the satellite era would be likely to capture a global climate signal. Earlier data might well be too sparse or too noisy to tell us much. So if you want to find signals correlated to solar cycles you probably don’t have many reliable cycles to work with.
That said, in an article that I posted here a while back http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/26/solar-cycle-driven-ocean-temperature-variations/ I used your SFT technique and showed that the hadsst3 sea temperature data ( http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl ) showed a small, but significant variation at the solar cycle period for the data of the last 60 years. I had first demonstrated that such weak signals could be extracted from noisy data.
You commented on my findings that “I suspect the problem may be that you have subtracted a cubic polynomial from the data, which is a technique fraught with problems. If not, I’m not sure what you did … my analysis shows, for example that there is a 5-year cycle nearly as large as the 9-year cycle, and a 3.8 year cycle that is larger than the nine year cycle. In addition, your graph is much smoother and less detailed than mine. Again, I’m not sure why.”
I only subtracted the arithmetic average temperature for the 60 years to help suppress the longest periodicities. I did not use a polynomial fit or otherwise alter the data or make up the correlation that I reported. I suspect that the reason that you did not duplicate my result is that there might be an error in your SFT program. If you want to do a least squares fit to sines and cosines, you have to do the sums and solve two equations in two unknowns for the amplitudes. You cannot just do a fourier sine integral and a fourier cosine integral separately and combine the amplitudes. I am not sure what you might have done, but I am pretty certain that what I did is both mathematically and numerically correct.
Now if it is true, as you say, that hadsst3 is an untrustworthy compilation that might have spuriously produced the solar cycle correlation, then there may be no significance to my calculations. However, if the data are OK, then the result is highly significant because it takes a hell of a lot more heat flux at the ocean surface to produce a few hundredths of a degree temperature variation than is available from the part of TSI variations that reaches the sea surface. If you know of anyone who has done a careful study of what might be in hadsst3 that could invalidate it, please let me know.
Stan Robertson

richardcfromnz
November 2, 2014 3:29 pm

>”To date I’ve looked for an 11-year cycle in local sea level datasets, river flow datasets, beryllium datasets, global surface temperatures, lower tropospheric temperatures, global sea levels, Nile River levels, and a bunch more surface datasets. I have looked at literally dozens of measures of the weather, and I’ve found … well … nothing.”
You’re not the only one looking.
3 papers documenting 11 yr periodicity in surface and tropospheric temperature
here (#73):
http://joannenova.com.au/2014/06/big-news-part-vii-hindcasting-with-the-solar-model/#comment-1496107
In GISTEMP here (#73.4):
http://joannenova.com.au/2014/06/big-news-part-vii-hindcasting-with-the-solar-model/#comment-1496534
Another 8 papers in a review paper here (#58.2):
http://joannenova.com.au/2014/06/big-news-viii-new-solar-model-predicts-imminent-global-cooling/#comment-1496991

richardcfromnz
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 12, 2014 12:12 am

>”I asked for a link to the ONE dataset”
OK, what was wrong with this?
In GISTEMP here (#73.4):
http://joannenova.com.au/2014/06/big-news-part-vii-hindcasting-with-the-solar-model/#comment-1496534
‘On the relationship between global, hemispheric and latitudinal averaged air surface temperature (GISS time series) and solar activity’
M.P. Souza Echera,
E. Echera,
N.R. Rigozoc,
C.G.M. Brumd,
D.J.R. Nordemanna,
W.D Gonzaleza,
(2012)
Table 2
Significant periods of the air surface temperature.
Region
Periods in years
Global 2–2.8;3.7–6.6;7.7;8.3;9.1;10.4;11.5;20.6;26.3;29.6and65
Northern Hemisphere
2.1–2.8;3.1–6.6;7.1;8.3;10.2;11.3;20.4;26.4;54.3and70.4
Southern Hemisphere
2–2.6;3.6–5.3;7.7;8.3;9.1;10;11.9;14.2;17.2;20.7and30.8
241 North–901 North 2–2.7;3.3–5.3;6.2–7.7;8.3;9.9;11.1;12.4;15.2;20.5;26.5;53.1and72.2
441 North–641 North 2.1–2.8;3.3–5.6;6.3–7.4;9.1–9.9;11.2;12.8;15.4;26.7;53.1and75.6
241 North–441 North 2–2.7;3–6.4;7.8;8.3;9.1;12.4;14.4;52.7and67.1
Equator–241 North 2.4–2.8;3–4.6;5.1–7.1;8.2;9;10;11.6;13.4;19.6;25.4;38.4and58.6
241 North–241 South 2.6–2.9;3.2–6.3;7.1;9;11.8;20;25.8;59.9and63.4
Equator–241 South 2.5–3.6;4.1–6.3;7.6;9;11.9;20.2;58and61.4
241 South–441 South 2–3.7;4.2–6.6;7.5;8.3;10.1;12.2;32.9and59.5
441 South–641 South 2.1–3.8;4.3–6.7;7.7–8.9;10.7;12.8;15.1;21.5;29.4;41.6and98.9
241 South–901 South 2–3.6;4.7–6.7;11.3;12.7;14.5;17.5;21.1;28.7;34.4and108.7
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682611002756
PDF at Google Scholar

richardcfromnz
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 12, 2014 1:54 am

>”please no “reanalysis data” from NCAR or NCEP or anywhere”
GMT: GISTEMP vs HadCRUT3 vs NCDC vs NCEP vs ERA40 vs ERAINT
http://www.realclimate.org/wp-content/uploads/globalT0.png

November 2, 2014 9:58 pm

The 10% greater cloud cover in 1980s vs. 1920s would have cooling effect of around 1.8 W/m^2 assuming 10% cloud albedo. It’s a negative feedback. This assumes the clouds are mostly stratocumulus. If the clouds are mostly cirrus, it’s a positive feedback because of low albedo and absorption of outgoing IR. It’s not clear from cloud cover data if the clouds are causing cooling or warming.
Physical mechanism how geomagnetic storms can affect cloud temperature. The greatest increase in microwave radiation during geomagnetic storms occurs at 50-100 GHz. Dielectric heating of water occurs at 1-150 GHz. They overlap. I don’t know if the effect is significant or not.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
November 3, 2014 6:57 pm

The UHF band overlaps with the spectrum of dielectric heating of water. A 50,000 watts UHF transmitter has a microwave flux of 0.0002 W/m^2 at 4,000 m altitude. This is negligible compared to 390 W/m^2 of solar radiation and LWIR absorbed by the troposphere and clouds. The microwave reflected by the ionosphere is weaker than the transmitter source. Hence, dielectric heating of clouds by microwave radiation is insignificant.

Girma
November 2, 2014 11:22 pm

Willis

To date I’ve looked for an 11-year cycle in local sea level datasets, river flow datasets, beryllium datasets, global surface temperatures, lower tropospheric temperatures, global sea levels, Nile River levels, and a bunch more surface datasets. I have looked at literally dozens of measures of the weather, and I’ve found … well … nothing.

Willis, are you a denier of the warming was caused by the sun?
How come you don’t believe what you see?
Here is the sun-climate link:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1979/scale:0.001/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1979/mean:60/detrend:0.5/offset:0.05

Michael Wassil
Reply to  Girma
November 3, 2014 1:24 am

That does look suggestive. However, change the time on your two plots to 1900. Here’s what I get:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1900/scale:0.001/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1900/mean:60/detrend:0.5/offset:0.05
Not quite so impressive prior to 1979/80.

Girma
Reply to  Michael Wassil
November 3, 2014 4:11 am

Michael
The problem with longer period is that you have to remove the multidecadal oscillation from the global mean temperature data. That oscillation has nothing to do with the solar cycle as it just caused by the redistribution of heat between the surface and deep oceans.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 5:32 pm

Willis,
Solar-climate Link
Sorry for my remarks. I get frustrated when I argue with someone who is on my side of an issue, and I believe the Sun-climate link is robust as shown:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/mean:48/offset:0.08/from:1955/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1955/compress:12/scale:0.001
The most important point to note when trying to extract the solar cycle from the global mean temperature is that they describe different quantities. The solar cycle is an instantaneous energy input into the earth but the global mean temperature represents an accumulated energy in the earth stored in its oceans. As a result, to find the solar signal in the global mean temperature data, the secular and multidecadal oscillations (greater than the solar cycle of 11 years) must be removed from the global mean temperature data.
The stored energy signal (secular and multidecadal oscillations) in the global mean temperature can be represented by the 25-year (300 months) moving average as shown below:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:300/plot/hadcrut4gl/compress:12/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:300/offset:0.2/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:300/offset:-0.2/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.00001/offset:2
What is left after removing the 25-year (300 months) moving average (the stored energy signal) is given by the “isolate” function in Woodfortrees and it is in this signal the 11-year solar cycle to be found. In addition to the secular and the muldtidecadal oscillation that must be removed from the global mean temperature using “isolate 300”, to obtain the solar cycle signal, we have to also remove the short term oscillation with in the earth’s climate of ENSO which has an average period of about 4 years (48 months). The ENSO should be removed because it is due to equalisation of heat within the earth system. This can be done by using the 4-year (48 months) moving average of the “isolate 300” data to get the following result:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/mean:48/offset:0.08/from:1955/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1955/compress:12/scale:0.001
The above is the sun-climate link since mid-20th century that IPCC claims was anthropogenic. However, as the above results show the global mean temperature changes in PHASE with the solar cycle. And this disproves anthropogenic global warming.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 8:51 pm

Willis,
How do you show only the 8 to 15 year oscillation from the global mean temperature data?
Let us see what you come with.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 8:53 pm

The temperature data appear not to be as accurate before mid-20th century

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 9:24 pm

willis,
Here is my question.
How do you remove the oscillations greater than about 13 years and less than about 9 years and the secular global mean temperature to show the oscillation near the 11 year cycle? I have shown my method. Show me yours. You can do it for the data since 1950 because that seems to be more accurate.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 3, 2014 11:51 pm

Willis,
The probability of finding the correlation I found between the two datasets by accident is nearly zero. As a result, the result is significant. If you dispute that then show me how you can extract the variation around the 11 year cycle from the global mean surface temperature data.
Otherwise you should not ever say there is no 11-year cycle in the global mean temperature data.
I have shoown how you can the secular trend, the multidecadal oscillation from the global mean temperature data by using “isolate 300” that removes the 25-year moving average data. Then remove the ENSO by using a 4-year moving average. This procedure leaves you the variation in the global mean temperature that corresponds to the 11-year solar cycle.
If you disagree with me, then show what you get for the 11-year period variation in the global mean temperature data.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 10:41 am

Willis,
You are saying the correlation since 1955 between the sun spot count and the global mean temperature shown below
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/mean:48/offset:0.08/from:1955/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1955/compress:12/scale:0.001
is not significant.
For that to happen by chance is 0.4%!!!
However, the sad part is that you have not answered my question:
show me what you get when you filtered out from the global mean surface temperature data the multidecadal oscillation, ENSO and the secular trend?
!!!!!!That is the question that you must answer!!!!!!!!

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 10:51 am

>> Yes, it is true that if you throw away two thirds of the two datasets and smooth them both, that the remaining third shows a non-zero correlation … but THAT’S NOT SCIENCE. You do not get to throw out the data that disagrees with you
I can’t speak for Girma, but I’ll tell you my reaction to this. This may seem like sematics, but I say that it’s not. I would characterize your approach as “THAT’S NOT SCIENCE”. Instead, I would describe your approach as MATH only, which I think is the tail wagging the dog. I see math as a tool to help understand science. I make fun of this approach by saying “can you provide a statistical correlation that shows that rain causes wet sidewalks?”. However, I think the point is lost on many.
I get the distinct impression that you don’t understand or believe: correlation does not imply causality AND causality does not imply correlation.
As such, I see the task of investigating correlations as simply helping us learn more about a phenomena that is already established scientifically.
In this particular case, Girma did an excellent job of explaining a core scientific fact (which I and many others stated early on in this thread, but was completely ignored by you). Girma said:
“The solar cycle is an instantaneous energy input into the earth but the global mean temperature represents an accumulated energy in the earth stored in its oceans.”
Once this concept is fully understood and appreciated, one wouldn’t be looking for something that in all likelihood, shouldn’t show up in the way that you’re expecting it to.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 10:59 am

Willis
I strongly disagree with you about smoothing data-sets.
You agree that the global mean surface temperature represents stored energy in the earth’s ocean. However, the sun spot numbers represents the instantaneous energy reaching the earth. As a result, to find the correlation between the two, you must remove the stored energy component from the global mean surface temperature or integrate the sun spot numbers.
Willis, the only way to find correlation between a data-set that represents accumulated energy (global mean surface temperature) and instantaneous energy (sun spot number) is by smoothing out the accumulated energy component from the global mean temperature data.
There is no other way to do it that I know. If you know that please show me what you get for the oscillation between 10 and 12 years in the global mean temperature data.

Girma
Reply to  Girma
November 3, 2014 11:34 pm

Willis,
You have filed my real question:
How do you find only the 11-year oscillations from the global mean temperature data?
This is the only question you must answer.

Khwarizmi
November 3, 2014 2:53 am

Willis says:
“I’m no happier with the 14C data as a solar proxy either. Although there is an 11-year cycle visible in the 14C data, it only represents about 5% of the swing of the 14C data. This means that 95% of the wanderings of the 14C data occur for an unknown cause, with 5% of the variation due to solar variations “
===========================
Wrong – or at best, backwards (95% known/5% mystery). Most of the swings during the Holocene have been shown to follow the the sun:

The concentration of radiocarbon, 14C, in the atmosphere depends on its production rate by cosmic rays, and on the intensity of carbon exchange between the atmosphere and other reservoirs, for example the deep oceans. For the Holocene (the past approx11,500 years), it has been shown that fluctuations in atmospheric radiocarbon concentrations have been caused mostly by variations in the solar magnetic field 1, 2, 3
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v403/n6772/full/403877a0.html

In fact, the accuracy of carbon-dating improved dramatically when we started compensating for those wiggles in the record corresponding precisely with recorded changes in solar activity:
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/Radioc.htm

“Suess and Stuiver finally pinned down the answer in 1965 by analyzing hundreds of wood samples dated from tree rings. The curve of carbon-14 production showed undeniable variations, “wiggles” of a few percent on a timescale of a century or so.(10) With this re-calibration in hand, boosted by steady improvements in instruments and techniques, carbon-14 became a precise tool for dating ancient organic materials.
[…] It was particularly interesting that, as Stuiver had suspected, the carbon-14 wiggles [the carbon-dating calibrator] correlated with long-term changes in the number of sunspots.”

November 3, 2014 8:42 am


This video based on the data which shows a clear cut relationship between the sun and the climate. About 32 minutes into the video it shows the graphs which show a good correlation between solar/climate. One of many data sources which all show the same kind of data over and over again. I choose to believe this data due to the fact it has been in existence for many years and reached by many independent studies.
As far as cloud cover versus solar again their is noise in the climate system and items such as the atmospheric circulation, volcanic activity, and the magnetic field strength of the earth ,in addition to primary changes on the sun itself are all going to impact cloud cover.
It is not just cosmic rays and to take it further if it were just cosmic rays the sun’s variability is not the only factor in modifying the amounts of cosmic rays entering the earth’s atmosphere. One has to consider the strength of the earth’s magnetic field and the concentrations of galactic cosmic rays out in space in the vicinity of the earth.
It is and will never be straight forward and this is why GIVEN solar changes will not give GIVEN climate results.
The ice dynamic (initial state of the climate) having a major influence on given solar variability and the effect or lack of an effect it may have on the climate.
I have listed at length al the factors that can cause given solar variability to have a different given climate result. That said if GIVEN solar variability is EXTREME enough (the criteria I have mentioned) then it will be enough to influence the climate in a general direction of cooler or warmer over the long term as was the case during the Little Ice Age as this video confirms. it will at a point be able to over come the noise in the climate system.
I will leave with this why the YD period end so abruptly? Where was the climate governor?
I say there is no such thing as a climate governor out there rather it is the initial state of the climate which determines the stability or lack of stability of the climate and how much or little it may be influenced by factors which may impact the climate.

Ken
November 3, 2014 8:47 am

The analysis presented in WUWT, above, is overly simplistic – pretty much EVERYTHING needed to understand solar/cloud/warming-cooling at a fundamental level is at the following links and these factors appear to remain on-track:
http://academic.evergreen.edu/z/zita/articles/09WSM/Shirley_SPD09.pdf
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/227136874_Prolonged_minima_and_the_179-yr_cycle_of_the_solar_inertial_motion
Prolonged Minima and the 179-yr Cycle of the Solar Inertial Motion by Fairbridge & Shirley; published in ’87, everything observed & calculated appears to continue on-track as these researchers projected.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63AbaX1dE7I (note, CLOUD experiments remain on-going at CERN).

Reply to  Ken
November 4, 2014 12:37 am

Fairbridge & Shirley
Count the sunspots before making complicated hypothesis.
Maunder Minimum = zero
2013 = 70
Obvious mismatch. Or you can force fit the hypothesis by looking for correlations. Many things are correlated. Check also for correlations between solar orbits and stock prices.

Ken
Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
November 4, 2014 2:23 pm

RE: Count the sunspots before making complicated hypothesis.
Maunder Minimum = zero
Dalton Minimum (Little Ice Age) ~ 25ish

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
November 4, 2014 6:27 pm

25 > 0
25 x > 1
70/25 = 2.8
25 x > 2.8 x
Dalton Minimum was not the cause of Little Ice Age. By 1800s the world was still cold due to thermal inertia of previous colder centuries.

November 3, 2014 9:17 am

The fact is many different data sources for many different parts of the world all give a similar result to the data shown below. This is why the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age are accepted by many in the scientific community. They are not here out of the thin air rather they are accepted due to the many different sources of data which supports these periods of the climate.
The video I presented in the above post being a prime example.
800-1000 9.2
1000-1100 9.4
1100-1150 9.6
1150-1200 10.2
1200-1250 10.1
1250-1300 10.2
1300-1350 9.8 Wolf
1350-1400 9.5
1400-1450 9.1
1450-1500 9.0 Spörer
1500-1550 9.3
1550-1600 8.8
1600-1650 8.8
1650-1700 8.7 Maunder
1700-1750 9.24
1750-1800 9.06 Dalton
1800-1850 9.12
1850-1900 9.12
1900-1950 9.41

milodonharlani
Reply to  Salvatore Del Prete
November 3, 2014 2:42 pm

Those data are from:
Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology
Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam – Printed in The Netherlands
THE EARLY MEDIEVAL WARM EPOCH AND ITS SEQUEL
H. H. LAMB
Meteorological Office, Bracknell, Berks. (Great Britain)
(Received September 14, 1964)
(Resubmitted January 22, 1965)
Which seminal paper others & I have linked here repeatedly, but which Willis keeps ignoring.
They’re the data upon which the first IPCC report graph (subsequently disappeared) showing the Medieval Warm Period & LIA were based.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 9:08 pm

Willis,
Do you agree with the following?
1) The sunspot numbers represent instantaneous energy into the earth system
2) The global mean surface temperature represents accumulated energy in the earth in its oceans
3) To find the instantaneous energy (high frequency) in the global mean surface temperate, the secular component must be removed
When you do that the following is what you get:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/compress:12/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/offset:0.2/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/offset:-0.2
From this data set is the solar signal to be found as shown below:
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/mean:48/offset:0.08/from:1955/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1955/compress:12/scale:0.001

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 10:24 pm

I agree that for the correlation not to work prior to mid-20th century is a problem. I acknowledge that. However, you have to acknowledge that it works after mid-20th century.
I don’t now know how to make the correlation work before mid-20th century. But I need peoples help in this.
I strongly believe the solar cycle is instantaneous energy and the global mean temperature represents accumulated energy and they can not be compared without either integrating the solar energy or smoothing out the secular trend from the global mean temperature.
What bothers me is your focus on the empty part of the my glass rather than on the full part.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 2:15 pm

>> Viking, I fear I don’t understand you. What do raindrops have to do with the question at hand?
I guess abstract thinking is not your thing? I think what I wrote was pretty clear, so I doubt further explanation will help you understand the difference between a science approach vs. a statistical math approach.
Let’s try a different explanation: What if I said “I cannot find a correlation between rain and birth rates”. Answer: what makes you expect to find such a correlation? Response: I don’t care, but I won’t believe that rain effects birth rates until someone shows me a correlation.
You would rightly say that my obsession with statistics is blinding me to scientific thinking.
Repeat: correlation does not imply causality –AND– causality does not imply correlation.
Therefore, it’s ok to use correlation to study a known phenomena further, but not to establish causality. In this case, we know that a solar max generally injects an additional 2.7 x10^22 Joules into the earth system. We’re not sure what happens to it, but we know that this energy has to have some effect.
It’s been explained to you (but completely ignored) that in general, thermodynamic systems do not reflect input variations in the output. For example, electric stove tops are controlled by pulse width modulation. However, even in this very simple thermodynamic system, we cannot see evidence of the input frequency in the water temperature inside the tea pot.
Demanding that people need to present this correlation to you, when scientifically, it shouldn’t be found, is stupid.
>> Girma thinks that it is perfectly fine to throw away the two-thirds of your data that disagrees with your hypothesis and claim success when the remaining one-third agrees with your hypothesis. I disagree. Do you think that is a justifiable scientific procedure? I say no. Girma says yes.
You’re mischaracterizing this. It’s not like Girma is throwing away tree rings that don’t agree with an a-priori hockey stick. Girma said:
“The solar cycle is an instantaneous energy input into the earth but the global mean temperature represents an accumulated energy in the earth stored in its oceans.”
Girma is asserting (and many agree, including myself) that the signal is contaminated with noise. It’s not controversial to claim that weather contaminates the climate signal. Weather vs Climate is like the very definition of a signal to noise ratio problem.
Filtering out noise of known sources is not throwing out contrary data. It’s using known scientific information to isolate the phenomena one is interested in. Remember that there is no doubt that a solar max adds additional energy. We’re not establishing causality, we’re just trying to learn more about it.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 3:08 pm

“The solar cycle is an instantaneous energy input into the earth but the global mean temperature represents an accumulated energy in the earth stored in its oceans.” Mmmm … no, I don’t think that’s a fact.
This is a basic fact of science and reality. I would replace ocean with “land & sea” to be more precise, but the distinction between power and energy is crucial and correct. If you don’t understand this, then your lack of a scientific background is a big problem. A very basic, but crucial equation is E = Cp * m * T, where E is energy in Joules, Cp is specific heat capacity in joules/degree kelvin/kg, m is mass in kg, T is temperature in K. TSI is measured in Watts (Power), which is Joules/Sec. It’s a rate of energy transfer.
It’s energy that determines temperature, not power. To determine energy, we need to integrate Watts over time. That’s what Girma means by this statement. To confuse power and energy is like confusing speed with position. A .1% increase in speed does NOT imply a .1% change in position. To determine the effect of a .1% increase in speed, we would need to integrate speed over time to get distance.
Demanding a correlation between TSI and temperature is like demanding a correlation between speed and position. It shows a lack of understanding of basic science and calculus.
>> Is it the false idea that energy used in warming the ocean controls the surface temperature?
It’s a basic fact that solar energy is absorbed by land and sea, and that the atmosphere is a thermodynamic slave of the land & sea. The mere fact that AGW proponents say something doesn’t make it false.
>> since daily variations in solar input lead to daily variations in surface temperatures, and monthly variations in solar input lead to monthly variations in surface temperatures, and yearly variations in solar input lead to yearly variations in surface temperatures … I expect decadal variations in solar input lead to decadal variations in surface temperatures, But they don’t. That’s the oddity that no one has been able to explain
It has been explained, but you ignore everything you don’t understand or you don’t want to hear.
Daily variation represents a change from 1362 W/m^2 to zero. Every time I stop my car at a red light, my position stops changing.
Monthly variation represents a change from 6073 kJ/m^2 to 22351 kJ/m^2, which 3.68x the minimum (Chicago). Every time I start driving 3.7 times faster, I make a lot more progress.
Annual variation? I’m not aware of this variation.
Decadal variation is only a rate change of .1%. It does add up to something over 5 years, but in no way compares to Daily or Monthly variation.

Girma
Reply to  VikingExplorer
November 4, 2014 9:45 pm

VikingExplorer
A very very big thank you. I very much appreciate your comment. Take care.

Reply to  VikingExplorer
November 4, 2014 10:37 pm

Is it the false idea that energy used in warming the ocean controls the surface temperature? And what is “the way that [I’m] expecting it to” show up?
++++++
I agree with what Viking Explorer says about power vs energy.
Let me answer your good question Willis:
The surface temperature of water is HARD to change because of the latent heat of vaporization. The energy changes water from liquid to a gaseous state, which holds the energy as gas. You did some great work, Willis, on how clouds works to bring energy up where it condenses to release the energy which mostly radiates out our system. The condensation is the reverse state change to a lower energy state, which means it gives off heat energy. Energy can be stored in a system without elevating temperature!!!!
Anyway – Viking Explorer explains things in terms of engineering facts, which cannot be ignored. Delta T is not, I repeat, not the metric one should use to determine if the earth is storing or losing energy. Heat can and often does go into a system without raising temperature… and later it can be released through energy state transformation.

Reply to  VikingExplorer
November 5, 2014 9:00 am

Willis Eschenbach November 4, 2014 at 10:58 pm
Mario Lento November 4, 2014 at 10:37 pm
… Heat can and often does go into a system without raising temperature… and later it can be released through energy state transformation.
VikingExplorer, on the other hand, says:
… the global mean temperature represents an accumulated energy in the earth stored in its oceans.
One person says heat going into the oceans DOESN’T raise the surface temperature, the other says heat going into the ocean DOES raise the surface temperature.
++++++
Willis:
Let this post bring up some learning please. I remain a fanboy. You are brilliant, Willis, and very well researched. And – I am not pandering to you.
I think I explained it correctly, and what I wrote is not at odds with anything Viking Explorer said. I think it’s crucial that you understand the finer engineering principles I am pointing to. The point I made is that energy can make it into the system without necesarrily leaving a temperature trace of the energy –even though that energy was stored somewhere in a changed state. If you want to talk about surface water temperature, it gets more complex, so let’s stick to principles. It’s important that you understand what I am saying and that you do not selectively twist my statements out of context.
If energy is stored in the system without showing a direct temperature increase, it can later change states and become increases in temperature elsewhere – or the increase in released energy could resist a decrease in temperatue and still not be seen by only looking at temperature. It’s extremely important that the engineering facts do not get overlooked in studies where conclusions are drawn.
I CONCLUDE: You CANNOT expect certainty of correlation between delta Energy to show up as a temperature change finger print. It might work that way and it might not… it just depends on what happens to compounds that receive that energy.
FURTHER: The integral of energy input, IF there is a sustained increase, stands a much better chance of eventually showing up as a fingerprint. If you’re not looking at the integral, especially when there are sustained substancial changes, your chances of finding answers is small.
Salvatore Del Prete’s work is based on this too, I believe. He gives metrics of sustained significant changes, that can be seen because the sustained changes accumulate enough to rise above the noise. In principle, his hypothesis is sound and falsifiable, albeit difficult to prove or falsify.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 4, 2014 3:24 pm

>> Folks seem to think that this is some kind of physical law. In some arenas it is not, and we’re investigating one of those arenas.
It’s a rule of logic: Correlation proves causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other.
>> sometimes correlation actually is enough to establish causality.
Never. The scientific method requires a coherent hypothesis to explain an observed phenomena. An observed phenomena like ‘rain falling on a sidewalk’ is already explained. A correlation between rain and sidewalks may help us learn more about it, but otherwise, is unnecessary. That a solar max injects additional energy is an established fact, and needs no correlation to prove it. If someone finds one, fine, but if not, oh well.
A correlation might help support an hypothesis, but is insufficient by itself. It’s a logic fallacy.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 7:51 am

So, you’re saying that sometimes, a logic fallacy is still valid logic? Do you understand what a logic fallacy is?
>> We see an 11-year cycle in ham radio reception, which is strongly correlated with the sunspot cycle.
The correlation would mean NOTHING, without an underlying scientific hypothesis that solar electromagnetic radiation should have an effect on ham radio reception.
This seems to be a coherent hypothesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2_propagation
The correlation just provides additional information, empirical support, etc. It does not, and could not establish causality all by itself.
The scientific method is really just the rules of valid logic, applied to science.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 7:39 am

>> S = V T/2
You’re assuming that velocity is a constant. The relationship between speed and position in not algebraic. You may need to learn about or review calculus.
S (speed) = dP / dt (where P is the position)
or integrating both sides: ʃ S dt = P
Similarly, power is the derivative of energy. That’s why I integrated the TSI of a solar max to calculate the additional energy input into the system. This is what Girma is taking into account when analyzing the data.
Conceptually, if speed is zero, position doesn’t change. Imagine driving across the US. A solar cycle is like driving 65 mph for 5 hours, then .1% faster for 5 hours, then back to 65 for 5 hours. Would you expect that to make a huge difference in how long it takes you to get from sea to shining sea? In fact, if two cars were travelling together, one with a solar cycle like variation and the other at a constant speed of 65 mph, the first would only be .325 miles ahead after one cycle. What would happen if the time varied? In order to isolate the effect, doesn’t it make sense to subtract the 65 mph?
>> … Sure seems like a correlation between speed and position to me … but I fail to see what that has to do with this question. In fact, it has nothing to do with this question,
It’s a crucial point that has everything to do with the question. If one variable (position) is an always increasing line with slight changes in slope, and the other (speed) is a nearly constant value that alternates between 65 and 65.065, what correlation would be expected?
>> because I’m not the guy “demanding” that there is some correlation between sunspot related variations in TSI, and temperature. That would be all of the folks writing the papers that I’ve disassembled one by one. I’m not making that claim that sunspots affect the weather, they are.
Someone is “making that claim that sunspots affect the weather” but you are demanding that in order to prove that, there must be some “correlation between sunspot related variations in TSI, and temperature” without removing noise & other known factors.
Your premise is that to establish causality, there must be a correlation. However, this is a logic fallacy. There is no doubt that adding 2.7 x10^22 Joules of energy has some effect on the system. If only 37% of that got into the atmosphere, it would be 2 degrees warmer. So, causality is already established. What we don’t know is exactly how it affects the system, because of the extremely complex thermodynamic system involved.
Girma seems to be simply removing noise, other known factors, and taking into account that energy is the integral of power. The graph from the link Girma provided looks like the effect of that additional energy has been isolated pretty well.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 9:05 am

Hi Willis: You wrote: “Help me out here, Mario. WHO do you think said that ∆T is, I repeat, is the metric one should use to determine if the earth is storing or losing energy, and WHERE did they say it? Because I’m very sure it wasn’t me, and a quick search of the thread shows that you are the first and only person to mention the word “delta” … so whose claim are you responding to, exactly?”
I did not say you specifically said this. However, I am reminding people, and you, that studies which correlate temperature and some other metric cannot conclude anything without understanding what I wrote. I wish to be impeccable with my words, and apologize that it seemed like I was misquoting you.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 10:47 am

Willis Eschenbach November 5, 2014 at 9:51 am
So, by your own admission you’ve made up a position that I don’t hold. What’s more, it seems that you cannot point to a single person who holds that position … and yet you are attacking it as though I hold it.
This is called a “straw man” argument, Mario. QUOTE MY WORDS if you disagree.
++++++
I am not attacking you Willis. I understand how patient you are with all of the debating with others. You choose to see it as an attack. Perhaps I was off topic, since your post was about clouds not temperature. But the discussion led down the path of solar / temperature.
My words were constructive to the general discussion, not an attack. I’m sure you already know that looking for a temperature signal that correlates to sunspots needs to consider what I described.

Reply to  Mario Lento
November 5, 2014 11:16 am

I am still not sure how to group threads, so I am reposting to Willis here:
Mario Lento November 5, 2014 at 11:13 am
Willis: Actually, you wrote alot that leads me and others to believe you needed to hear my words. Specifically, you wrote: “I expect decadal variations in solar input lead to decadal variations in surface temperatures,”. Willis, you can look at what you said before and after this statement and see clearly why I responded with my words to advance the science.
Your statement is in fact “delta T”. There is no strawman. I was being more precise, but you in fact should understand why I was helping advance the discussion instead of obfuscating, which is exactly why I am responding here. What I said holds true.
Instead of advancing knowledge, you often write distracted diatribes like a lawyer trying to confuse a jury. You are an adroit writer. However, this creates unneeded contention and you often seek to create argument and win at the cost of advancing knowledge.
I want to get educated at WUWT. I’ve learned from your work, and for that I am grateful. You often invest time to win an argument, often by derogatory means, and liberal use of labels with so much fervor that nothing is gained –except for more hits on WUWT which is a saving grace. I do not wish to fall into the trap of getting caught up into these battles.

Girma
November 4, 2014 11:35 pm

Willis,
Is it possible for you do your frequency plots for the following data?
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/isolate:300/compress:12/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/offset:0.2/plot/hadcrut4gl/scale:0.000001/offset:-0.2
Can you please do it?
Thank you in advance.

Girma
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 1:18 am

I should have said the smoothing value of 4 years I used to remove ENSO may not be a constant throughout the data set. If you do your frequency graph, I would be able to know the value to choose prior to mid-20 century.
I think I sould be able to find the value by trial and error method!
And I shall return with the result. So we may have two graphs, one after mid-20 century and the other before that.
Thanks for the discussion and keeping me honest.

Girma
November 4, 2014 11:56 pm

Willis,

People have the idea that the energy can just go into the ocean, and then come out to warm the much warmer atmosphere … but it doesn’t work that way.

I agree with you.
However, we have to take acceleration of the global mean temperature into account. That means the global mean temperature per year increases with time.
So the initial global warming rate also contributes to the increase in global mean temperature, not just the external forcing only.
For a freely falling body, the displacement is given by =u*t + at^/2. The first term is due to the initial condition or the history effect. The second is due to the forcing effect.
F=ma=m*dv/dt
Fdt = m*dv
W*dt = m*dv
Integral(W*dt) = m*(v-u)
Integral(g*dt)=(v-u)
Impulse of the force = change in velocity
Solar forcing = Change in global warming rate.
Forcing is not linearly related to the global mean temperature, but the forcing is related linearly to the change in global warming rate.

November 5, 2014 1:41 am

Willis said:
” I think it’s because like all other variations in forcing, whether from the sun, volcanoes, or CO2, the sunspot cycles get wiped out by the climate response, which involves the timing and persistence of the emergent phenomena which regulate the temperature.”
In the short term, say up to 3 solar cycles, that is probably right.
However, there is evidence that solar changes affect global cloudiness over multiple cycles which is another matter.
Changes in cloudiness mimic much greater changes in TOA insolation by regulating the proportion of that insolation that can enter the oceans.
Changes in insolation will create a long term climate response that is not cancelled by emergent phenomena.
So, in so far as the sun might force a change in global cloudiness, there would be no adequate negative response from emergent phenomena.
Changes in insolation, atmospheric mass or the gravitational field do change the baseline system energy content but every other forcing will be negated by emergent phenomena.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 12:26 pm

The Earthshine project shows that cloudiness decreased during the active cycles of the late 20th century and has been recovering again since the sun went quiet.
The LIA was a time of more meridional jets as was the cooling period around solar cycle 20 and the current pause. Meridional jets give more clouds but until we have a longer Earthshine record that will not be easily demonstrable.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 12:36 pm

No, Stephen, you are severely overstating your case. The Earthshine data started in November 1998 and do not cover the ‘active cycles of the late 20th century’.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 12:45 pm

See:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/10/17/earths-albedo-tells-a-interesting-story/
It is a good start nonetheless.
Interesting that the change in trend accompanied both a less active sun and more meridional jets.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 12:47 pm

Regardless, you were still grossly overstating your case.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 12:59 pm

The chart in the article covers more than 20 years which is about 2 cycles straddling the change in trend.
The LIA and MWP provide additional persuasive evidence.
I was not overstating because I accepted the shortness of the Earthshine project.
You were overstating your objection by suggesting data was only available from 1998.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 2:10 pm

You overstate by saying that the Earthshine covers several active cycles. But that is typical: bend the truth to support a weak argument.and hope that no-one notices. The reliable values only date from 1999 on http://www.leif.org/EOS/Earthshine_Palle_2008.pdf

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
November 5, 2014 1:01 pm

>> I leave it to the reader to point out Viking’s error. HINT: I specified that acceleration was constant.
The problem is that in the general case, and especially this case, acceleration is not constant. It’s varying between a small positive value and a small negative value.
As such, we can only say a = f(t). Integrating, we get v = ʃ f(t) dt.
Integrating to get position, we get ʃ ʃ f(t) dt dt
It seems clear that one should not expect a simple correlation between a variable and a complex integral of that variable.
>> Either my scientific claims are right or they are wrong, regardless of whether or not I understand calculus
I agree that credentials don’t matter (argument from authority). I wasn’t resorting to ad-hominem. I was trying to help you understand what you might want to learn more about, or review, in order to understand this issue.
I’ll try one more analogy: Imagine if we tried to correlate bank account deposits with net worth for a dozen people. A couple of the people are Bill Gates and Larry Ellison, while the others are a mix between middle class and some students. You might conclude that bank deposits do not increase one’s net worth, since there is no correlation between bank deposits and net worth. However, this conclusion is invalid, because in fact, a bank deposit does increase net worth, by definition.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  VikingExplorer
November 6, 2014 8:27 am

Maybe I need to be more explicit. Net worth = total assets – total liabilities. A bank deposit is a delta increase in total assets, the derivative of assets. The average temperature of earth reflects net worth, or the total energy in the system. Solar TSI is like bank deposits, while the solar cycle is a variation in deposits. Energy doing Work or radiating into space are bank withdrawals. There is no such thing as negative energy, so liabilities have no place in this analogy.
Once this is understood, it doesn’t make sense to expect a simple correlation between bank deposits and net worth or the solar cycle and temperature. A dollar deposited into my account versus Bill Gates, while increasing both of our net worth’s by 1 dollar, have vastly different –percentage– effects. That’s why it’s important to know the energy levels of the atmosphere, oceans and crust, which are equivalent to the initial account balance.
If Earth is like Bill Gates (which It is), then in order to isolate the periodic small deposits, we’d need to subtract his billions. To me, that’s what Girma seems to be doing.

Reply to  VikingExplorer
November 6, 2014 8:55 am

Viking Explorer: Correct! The problem with the idea that temperature of the earth won’t change due to delta TSI because the energy is constant, is that this idea never considers that the net outflows of energy can fall out of balance due to the changing sun (in ways that have yet to be accepted as fact)

November 5, 2014 11:13 am

Willis: Actually, you wrote alot that leads me and others to believe you needed to hear my words. Specifically, you wrote: “I expect decadal variations in solar input lead to decadal variations in surface temperatures,”. Willis, you can look at what you said before and after this statement and see clearly why I responded with my words to advance the science.
Your statement is in fact “delta T”. There is no strawman. I was being more precise, but you in fact should understand why I was helping advance the discussion instead of obfuscating, which is exactly why I am responding here. What I said holds true.
Instead of advancing knowledge, you often write distracted diatribes like a lawyer trying to confuse a jury. You are an adroit writer. However, this creates unneeded contention and you often seek to create argument and win at the cost of advancing knowledge.
I want to get educated at WUWT. I’ve learned from your work, and for that I am grateful. You often invest time to win an argument, often by derogatory means, and liberal use of labels with so much fervor that nothing is gained –except for more hits on WUWT which is a saving grace. I do not wish to fall into the trap of getting caught up into these battles.

Girma
November 5, 2014 11:54 am

Willis,

Is it the false idea that energy used in warming the ocean controls the surface temperature?

The energy has raised the surface temperature to a new temperature so it had controlled it. Any change in the surface temperature will be relative to the new temperature.

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