About that $30,000 to 'disprove global warming' contest

Guest essay by Steven Burnett

Most of my income is derived from tutoring, with part being tied into the Google helpouts system. One of my most loyal customers for my physics and mathematics tutoring sent me a link to a $10,000 reward challenge for skeptics. Which is now up to $30,000, seen here.

Below is what I wrote back with minor edits. While I could have added more links, or graphs, I feel that this synopsis is the most compact skeptic’s case, without dropping off too many details. Perhaps I should submit it for $30,000.

These kinds of challenges pop up all the time here’s one for creationism:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/27/joseph-mastropaolo-creationist-10000-disprove-genesis_n_2964801.html

The problem with the climate change challenge is that no one is denying that there is likely an anthropogenic signal. The question is how much.

This article probably offers one of the better overviews of the issue

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2014/06/20/global-warming-of-the-earths-surface-has-decelerated-viewpoint/

You can demonstrate in a lab that CO2 absorbs IR wavelengths within the same range as the earth gives off. The data shows that the northern hemisphere has had a shift in the mean temperature since before the industrial revolution.

Overwhelmingly the people pushing the issue like to try to box skeptics in by presenting it as an all or nothing issue, which those who don’t read skeptic statements take on faith. In reality the skeptic’s side has a much larger range of stances on the issues, I have tried to bold them out. There are some people who make ridiculously stupid claims that there is no anthropogenic signal but it’s a very small minority. Many skeptics feel that they are just internet trolls, we try not to feed them.

A better way to examine skeptics is to look at them as scientific critics, and more specifically to evaluate the criticisms as issues with each step of the scientific method in climate science fields. The standard scientific method goes:

Observations->Hypothesis->Experiment->Analysis. If we were to go back to the ’90’s Then we could state that this was doled out as…

Observations: A warming/CO2 concentration correlation and CO2 absorbs IR spectra, the same trend in the ice core data existed,

Hypothesis: Emissions cause global warming,

Experiment: Climate Model,

Analysis: a close approximation of the hind cast, statistically significant temperature increases, hockey sticks, etc. Through the late 1990’s and early 2000’s the conclusion that global warming is real was scientifically acceptable. The next stage is usually peer review and scrutiny and this is where the theory ran into problems.

The Problems:

The observations aren’t very good prior to the late ’70’s and they get worse as we go back to the earliest records. We weren’t looking for tenths of a degree trends and we weren’t controlling our instruments for them. Stations have been moved, cities have grown etc, all of which would induce a warming bias on those stations, the data is frankly of poor quality. But there are other problems that came up. The ice core data, using better instrumentation, actually shows CO2 lagging behind temperature changes. More importantly temperatures stopped rising on all data sets, but CO2 levels continued their upward expansion. We also have not detected the “hot spot” that was sure to be proof of an anthropogenic contribution.

Our Hypothesis for how the climate system operates is essentially coded into the climate models. There are 114 of them that are used by the IPCC all of them are going up, all of them are rising faster than observations and most of them have been falsified. But the work falsifying them is very recent.

This paper falsifies the last 20 years of simulations at the 90% confidence interval, within that blog entry you can find another paper that falsifies them at the 98% confidence interval. That paper cites a third that falsified at the 95% confidence interval.  What this means is that there is less than a 10%, 2% or 5% chance that the models are wrong by chance.

As the models are mathematical representations of how we think the climate system operates, that means climate scientists were wrong.  In response there has been a flurry of activity attempting to attribute the pause and explain it, but explaining a problem with mathematical models after it occurred and claiming that your hypothesis will still be born out requires its own period of time to validate.

There are well over 10 different attributions at this point for the pause, most of them entirely explaining it away. This means the pause in its current state is over explained and more than one of those papers is wrong. In science we aim for a chance at being wrong of 5%, apparently climate science gets a pass.

This divergence also has impacted the metric known as climate sensitivity. Climate sensitivities note a thermal increase of 1.2-1.5 C per doubling of CO2, as in if we went form the current 400ppm CO2 to 800PPM CO2 the temperatures would rise approximately 1.2-1.5 degrees, climate simulations produce much higher results typically between 3 and 4.5 degrees per doubling.

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Digging even further there are major issues with the models, our experiments, themselves. Depending on the compiler, operating system and even hardware modeling output can change due to rounding errors. They can’t predict clouds. Nor do they have the resolution to see many of the atmospheric processes that transport heat. But that’s only the climate models themselves.  The impact models, or integrated assessment models have almost no data upon which to base their claims. That’s why the IPCC stated that the costs of climate change for 2.5 degrees of warming range from .2%-2% of world GDP. This is again for predictions almost 100 years in the future, which at this time are untestable and unfalsifiable.

When evaluating the cost of a ton of CO2 emissions the integrated assessment models depend very heavily on the discount rate. The current administration cites a discount rate of 3% at 37$ per ton but the most appropriate discount rate, and the one which long term assessments are supposed to be performed at is 7%. This means the actual social cost of carbon is about 4-5$ per ton. As was discussed in an EPW senate hearing, the current administration has failed to produce the 7% discount rate as is required and instead produced 5%, 3% and 2.5% rates. The reason the cost varies so much is partially due to uncertainty in the integrated assessment models which are fed the outputs of the GCM’s. A common coding colloquialism is GIGO garbage in garbage out.

But the worst issue is the analysis. As part of the attempts to preserve the theory there have been some gross statistical practices and data torture employed.  The first monstrosity to be slain was Michael Mann’s hockey stick which used a special algorithm to weight his tree samples. That was taken down by Steven McIntyre a statistician who proved not only the weighting issue, but also found the splice point of thermometer data when the proxy and thermometer temperatures diverged.

There have since been several other hockey-sticks, all of which go down as giant flaming piles of poo. Trenberth’s hockey stick, also from dendrochronology, died when it was pointed out that he was using a special sub-selection of only 12 trees, and that when his entire data set was used the hockey-stick disappeared. In 2013 Marcott et al published a hockey-stick on his graph that averaged multiple proxies except the the blade portion was generated using only about 3 of the proxies, that weren’t statistically robust, had some proxy date rearrangement issues, which coincided with the industrial revolution.

You have mentioned the 97% consensus papers which do exist but they are atrocious. Cook et al. has been rebutted several times actually I recommend further reading some of the issues that Brandon Schollenberger has pointed out as well, though it’s not peer reviewed. The earlier 97% paper by Doran and Zimmerman was equally stupid the wallstreet journal touched on both but I recommend this site for a thorough critique. Truthfully the number of abstracts and methodologies I have read that are complete garbage from this field is astounding so I’m not going to try to link them all.

The question ultimately becomes what piece of evidence is required before admitting that climate may not be as sensitive to anthropogenic emissions as once thought?

Outside of the problems with their scientific methodology there’s also some ethics issues that seem to keep cropping up. A statistician working for a left leaning think tank was just terminated because he wrote a piece about the statistically weak case for anthropogenic warming. About a month before that Lennart Bengtsson, a climate scientist tried to join a more conservative and skeptical climate change think tan. He had to resign due to threats, authors withdrawing from his papers and general concern for his safety and wellbeing.

A paper of his, focused on the discrepancy between models and observations, was rejected with the rejecting review stating they recommended it in part because they felt it might be harmful. The reviewer also mentioned that climate models should not be validated against observational data. A few years ago it was climate-gate.

A psychology paper tried to name skeptics as conspiracy nuts, when it was retracted citing ethical reasons, the researchers and their community cited it as being perfectly ok to debase your opponents and that the retraction was due to lawsuits. The clamoring defense got so antagonistic the publisher had to reinforce the rejection was due to the papers ethics violations, language and the failure or unwillingness of the authors to make changes. There’s also the paper that says lying and exaggerating results is OK.

If you read skeptical science they try to rebut skeptic claims but nine times out of ten they use strawmen, ad hominems or other logical fallacies. For instance a good argument can be made that cheap affordable fossil fuel energy can greatly improve the poorest nations of the world, and that denying them access to this resource is harmful. They rebut it by pointing out that projected climate damages, impact the poorest nations the most. That might be true but it’s not the same argument. Depriving impoverished nations of the energy they need to grow, enforcing poverty and mandating foreign dependence for 85 years, so that the poor might not have to suffer from as many storms in the future is frankly asinine.

But let’s say you’re not skeptical of the ethics, or their methodological flaws. Let’s say you decide you want avert the future risk now. You can still be skeptical of the proposed solutions. For instance let’s look at energy policy. The cheapest, most effective and simplest energy policy would be a carbon tax. Again 4$ per ton accurately prices future damages. It also allows countries and markets to work instead of hoping bureaucrats don’t screw it up. Essentially a carbon tax penalizes carbon for its actual cost instead of giving enormous power to unelected officials like what the EPA just did.

But maybe you don’t believe in markets, maybe you believe the government isn’t as incompetent as they seem to keep trying to prove. That’s fine, you can still be skeptical of how the money is being spent. In the US solar receives an unbelievable amount of market favoritism, you start by getting a 40% tax credit on every installation. Additionally while all sectors recoup their capital investments over time as the assets depreciate, solar recoups 100% of its cost in under 5 years, that’s less time than an office chair. With these perks solar is still the most expensive form of electricity generation.

When you correct for just the tax credit solar costs increase to almost 140$/mwhr for standard installations, that goes up for thermal solar. Correcting for wind’s tax credit this goes up to about 88$ MwHr. The intermittancy on the grid is an externality that should be accounted for, from there you have to factor in the degradation of wind and solar as a cost factor, which when integrated over their life span multiplies their cost by almost 4.5.

Nuclear at an approximate 96$/MWhr is substantially cheaper, has a lower life cycle carbon emission, lasts longer and is safer. But we only hear about improving renewable contributions when they are literally worse in every way.

These are issues that we can have with the scientific authenticity of the theory. The next step would be falsification, but It’s difficult to find a piece of falsifying evidence. No matter what happens now or in the future global warming/climate change seems to predict it. We have both warmer and cooler spring/summer/fall/winter. There’s droughts and floods, cold/hot. Literally in 2009/2010 we were hearing how climate change will totally cause more snow in winter when just a few years before it was the end of snowy winters. Hell that was four years ago and they were still blaming crappy Olympic conditions on global warming this year, ignoring entirely that the average temperature for that part of Russia in February is above freezing throughout the whole damn record.

We have almost 2 decades of no temperature trend, and a net negative for a little over a decade. That’s apparently not enough. There are periods within this interglacial that have been warmer, and periods that have been cooler. So what is the reference period of a climatic normal? A few hundred years ago temperature spiked without greenhouse gas emissions, the period of 1914-1940 showed a similar rate and trend as the 1980-200 period, why is the latter anthropogenic and the former not? How is CO2 the driving force this time when there is scant to no evidence that it has ever been the major force in the past?

Why should we believe the corrections or explanations for the pause, the same individuals hyping them were the same ones pointing out how perfect the models were just a few years ago? there is no mechanism by which heat remitted in the lower atmosphere magically descends to the deepest layer of the ocean. the one we just started to measure a few years ago and from which there still aren’t reliable measurements, also the region that is bounded by warmer upper oceans and geothermal heating. How does it get there without being detectable in the upper atmosphere, lower atmosphere or upper oceanic level? Nor is there a mechanism to describe how it could possibly all concentrate in the arctic where we also don’t have any measurements.

Where do we draw the scientific line between natural or artificial trends, and how do we know that line is accurate? Why shouldn’t climate science be required to validate? What is falsifying evidence? Faced with the mountain of problems surrounding uncertainty, poor methodology, awful ethics and analysis, most skeptics, myself included just call the whole thing bullshit.

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MikeB
July 7, 2014 11:20 am

Steven Burnett
The CO2 molecule must emit a photon with the same energy as that absorbed. The energy levels within the CO2 molecule are quantised and not divisible. In principle this means that the emitted photon will have the same wavelength as the absorbed photon. This may be modified slightly due to Doppler effects; for example, the photon may be emitted in the same direction that the molecule is travelling (or the opposite) and this will result in a slight Doppler shift to the wavelength.
However, apart from that, there is no possibility that the emitted photon will be at a completely different wavelength.

July 7, 2014 11:23 am

I am sad to see that most people [here on this blog] still do not really understand the principle of absorption and re-radiation. I have tried to explain it here.
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2011/08/11/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-aug-2011/
I think to understand it you at least have to be able to read the UV-Vis-IR spectra of a gas.
Based on the theory of AGW, which would have been correct [in the case of CO2] if the CO2 did not have a cooling effect as well [due to absorption and re-radiation in the UV and short IR (e.g. 1-2um, 4-5um)] , and if the actual quantities involved were not so tiny [there are giga tons and giga tons of bicarbonates in the oceans], one would expect to see an increase in minimum temperatures, pushing up the mean average temperature. That is not happening. I have made my submission dr Keating:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/06/about-that-30000-to-disprove-global-warming-contest/#comment-1678753
He has accepted my submission.
No doubt I will not win the price. But that is not important. All I want is people to think about my results and what they mean.
I think even Anthony believes there is some AGW. However, my results show there is none, whatsoever. All warming and cooling is happening naturally. Someone designed it like this.
The truth is that from the very beginning (Tyndall, etc) everyone involved in the AGW business got stuck in the closed box experiments. That is what is really sad.

July 7, 2014 11:26 am

mellyrn says:
July 7, 2014 at 10:38 am
“And it wouldn’t matter a bean if it were CO2 or N2 or He. Her question is, if it were CO2, would it lower her heating bill by “back radiation”? ‘Cos air alone don’t do that trick.”
Atmospheric radiation is exactly how it works. Home insulation primarily is an attempt to stop convection and conduction.
“And no, it wouldn’t. Alas for her heating bill, the IR wavelength in question corresponds to a far, far colder temperature than she really wants her house.”
Radiation wavelength isn’t a temperature. A watt of any wavelength is the same energy wise.

Reply to  Genghis
July 7, 2014 11:55 am

Radiation wavelength isn’t a temperature. A watt of any wavelength is the same energy wise.

Yes, because watt is the wrong units, the amount of a photon energy in joules is dependent on the wavelength of the photon, and when expressed in joules a single photon in the 14-16 um range has low energy. To transfer significant energy in watts in the Co2 bands requires a correspondingly large number of photons.

July 7, 2014 11:33 am

richard says
The claims that it is well mixed are over stated.
henry says
Please don’t make claims you do not prove
Some areas may have seasonal effects, due to lack of weather/rain, but in the end it all evens out again.

July 7, 2014 11:37 am

richard verney says
Or is carbon monoxide poisoning?.
henry says
if the exhaust of your car has CO, it is not properly tuned?

July 7, 2014 11:43 am

Alberta Slim says:
July 7, 2014 at 10:29 am
Genghis……………..
I understand how insulation works.
You seem to have missed my point. The warmists tell us the CO2 is like insulation.
Insulation[a solid] slows down the transfer of heat; CO2[a gas] speeds up the transfer of heat.”
Actually most insulators work by trapping gases, Conductors are generally solids (or liquids.)
“If you are in the experimentation mood, how about doing an experiment?
Measure the inside and outside temps of the insulation and the place airtight bags of CO2, and measure the inside and out side temps. With a constant heat source.
Tell me what you find
Thanks.”
Been there, done that, with really tiny bags of air of course. That is exactly how foam insulation works, or wood, or blown insulation, or fiberglass, or insulated windows (less than a quarter of an inch in separation between the panes.) Even a metal sheet can be an insulator with a suitable air space.
The lower atmosphere is an insulator, CO2 included. Atmospheric radiation slows the surface cooling. Do yourself a favor. Go buy an IR gun at Lowes or Home Depot and point it at the sky. It measures real radiation and all radiation ‘warms’.

July 7, 2014 12:15 pm

Mi Cro says:
July 7, 2014 at 11:55 am
Genghis > Radiation wavelength isn’t a temperature. A watt of any wavelength is the same energy wise.
“Yes, because watt is the wrong units, the amount of a photon energy in joules is dependent on the wavelength of the photon, and when expressed in joules a single photon in the 14-16 um range has low energy. To transfer significant energy in watts in the Co2 bands requires a correspondingly large number of photons.”
I couldn’t agree more. I am just intentionally using the misleading language the warmers use. Pielke Jr. is absolutely correct that we should be measuring the energy in the system, but then CO2’s trivial contribution would be clear to see.
I still stand by my original contention that atmospheric radiation slows the surface cooling and as a result the surface is warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.

Reply to  Genghis
July 7, 2014 1:20 pm

Genghis says:
July 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm

I still stand by my original contention that atmospheric radiation slows the surface cooling and as a result the surface is warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.

I hold that to be determined, or I don’t know, your choice.
What I think is that the surface cools through clear skies plenty fast, and if Co2 changed this rate, it’s still more than fast enough to cool the planet as we know it.

Go buy an IR gun at Lowes or Home Depot and point it at the sky. It measures real radiation and all radiation ‘warms’.

I found the local store variants did not go cold enough, plus I wanted usb logging. But even the -60F min temp one I have isn’t really cold enough where I live, during the winter it read below -80F, even this summer I’ve seen it near -40F (see above posts).
Between this, models being unsatisfactory, and the physical surface record leaves me unconvinced, CS is low for Co2, may be even lower than Co2 in the lab setting.

richard verney
July 7, 2014 1:47 pm

HenryP says:
July 7, 2014 at 11:37 am
////////////////////////
I have not seen autopsies so I do not know, and I am just questioning.
I very much doubt whether a well tuned car results in complete combustion, and at slow rpm (tick over) this seems even more unlikely. Ideal combustion is achieved at max torque. This depends upon engine design, but may be around 4,000 to 4,500 rpm. I doubt that the car is set to such revs when people gas themselves.
Carbon Monoxide even at low levels is very poisonous and it would not surprise me if that is the culprit.
After typing and just prior to sending I quickly googled. This is from what appears to be a suicide site, so I am not linking the address, I am merely cutting and pasting the intro.
QUOTE
Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning
In the past, using car exhaust fumes to commit suicide was a well known method. Whether that was by running a car engine continuously in an enclosed space like a garage, or by running a pipe from the exhaust directly into the car, again, ideally in a garage. But that was before the days of emission controls on cars, which now emit much lower levels of CO than previously. Whilst it is possible to achieve death using this method, it does generally require older cars. The method is susceptible to a number of things that can go wrong, and for this reason it is no longer cited as an effective method of committing suicide, and certainly not in places like the US, UK and Australia where car emissions are more tightly controlled.
However, CO can be highly toxic if the concentration is high enough. It is also odourless and tasteless and will cause reasonably swift unconsciousness leading to a peaceful and painless death, although there may be some brief panic knowing that the body is not breathing in air. On discovery, the body will look peaceful.
The method relies on being in an enclosed space and generating a high concentration of CO. Purchasing a tank of carbon monoxide is one way of doing this, used with a gas regulator or valve, or with a gas mask.
UNQUOTE

richard verney
July 7, 2014 1:50 pm

Further to my last post.
PLEASE NOTE THAT NO ONE SHOULD TRY THAT.

July 7, 2014 1:53 pm

Mi Cro says:
July 7, 2014 at 1:20 pm
“I found the local store variants did not go cold enough, plus I wanted usb logging. But even the -60F min temp one I have isn’t really cold enough where I live, during the winter it read below -80F, even this summer I’ve seen it near -40F (see above posts).
Between this, models being unsatisfactory, and the physical surface record leaves me unconvinced, CS is low for Co2, may be even lower than Co2 in the lab setting.”
I have been measuring the Ocean surface and the sky with or without clouds above the ocean with an IR Gun. I have also been measuring the temperature below the surface with a couple of thermometers.
Conclusions of a couple of years of data collecting in the subtropics and tropics.
1. The surface temperature is always lower or the same temperature as the water just beneath the thermal skin layer.
2. Thick clouds are generally 2-3 degrees less than the surface temperature.
3. Clear Sky is generally 20 degrees or so less than the surface temperature.
And the big conclusion is that the Ocean is the real Greenhouse effect, because it absorbs almost 99% of the solar insolation. The oceans average temp is around 5 degrees exactly what the S-B says it should be based on the S-B equation and its surface is around 22 degrees. There is the greenhouse effect.

Reply to  Genghis
July 7, 2014 2:11 pm

Genghis commented

2. Thick clouds are generally 2-3 degrees less than the surface temperature.

Here (since I live further North and inland), the bottoms of clouds range from near surface temps, to near clear skies, depending on the altitude and type of cloud.

3. Clear Sky is generally 20 degrees or so less than the surface temperature.

I see much larger differences, other than the really hot humid days, so the difference between your 20 degree differences and my 60-80 degree F differences is, wait for it, water vapor, not Co2. And where I live (yet again), there just isn’t an unlimited amount of water (well that’s not really true, I live 30 miles from Lake Erie, and yet we still have low (er) humidity days).

Alberta Slim
July 7, 2014 1:56 pm

Genghis says:
July 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm
“I still stand by my original contention that atmospheric radiation slows the surface cooling and as a result the surface is warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.”…………………….
Try this:
http://www.newclimatemodel.com/new-climate-model/
Also: If I fill the vaccum space in my thermos bottle with 100% CO2, will my coffee stay hot longer than when my thermos has only a vaccum??

richard verney
July 7, 2014 2:09 pm

HenryP says:
July 7, 2014 at 11:37 am
/////////////////////////
Henry
I can give you an example of where people have died of oxygen depletion. I have unfortunately had experience, on a number of occassions, where a ship has been carrying a cargo of logs and where either during the voyage some of the crew have ventured into the hold to deal with an unexpected problem, or on discharge stevedores have been too quick to enter the hold in their eagerness to commence discharge, and people have died. The autopsy in each of these cases confirming that death was due to oxygen depletion.
During the course of the voyage, the logs have continued to breath the oxygen in the air in the hold, and have depleted it. People entering the hold have not expected that (and were not using oxygen breathing equipment) and have collapsed, and before there was time to rescue them, they have unfortunately died because of oxygen depletion.
Logs are a ‘dangerous’ cargo, but this is usually considered to be due to their size and weight, or because they are slippery because they are often loaded not from barges but directly out from the water (they are floated alongside the vessel – depends upon the density of the log).. However, other risks await the unwary..

July 7, 2014 2:17 pm

verney
I know that scientists have done tests with rabbits to see if CO2 has any poisonous character.
They pushed up the CO2 from 0.03% (300 ppm) gradually up to 65%, however they left the oxygen unchanged (at 21%). Even at 65% the rabbits would not die. From their tests, they reported that CO2 is not poisonous. It seems they did not go higher than 65% [I don’t know why].
There have been cases of enclosed spaces where CO2 suddenly went up [volcanic like releases in inhabited areas] leaving victims. Like I said, these must have been due to asphyxiation.
I believe in God, suicide is not a solution for any problem.

July 7, 2014 2:17 pm

That’s exactly what AGW isn’t, and it didn’t start in the ’90′s. Well, it actually started in the 1890′s. And with physics that you’ve described. Carbon dioxide impedes outgoing IR. That’s the reason for expecting that putting a whole lot of it in the air to cause warming. Not a hypothesis based on observed warming.
Anyone who uses Arrehenius’s pre quantum mechanics statistical methods as their touchstone simply does not understand the subject.

more soylent green!
July 7, 2014 2:38 pm

Stephen Richards says:
July 7, 2014 at 1:58 am
Why does everyone keep saying that AGW is real ? I have not yet seen a DEFINITIVE proof for this hypothesis. If their is an ‘A’ signal then it should be discernable, measurable, provable. As SteveMc said a very long time ago, “Where is the engineering standard proof that AGW is real”. If you don’t have it, stop making statements that suggest you do.
Just because you ‘feel’ it aught to exist doesn’t mean it does. And, yes I’m a physicist, yes I know that elements and molecules apsorb but that doesn’t mean they heat the planet. So, Please, Stop it or provide the proof.

As the term “AGW” is not exactly defined, you have a valid point. Does AGW include land-use changes, or does it solely apply to greenhouse gas emissions? There’s no doubt we’ve changed the landscape. Are these change only local in scope, or are they big enough to be regional or global?
And as for emissions, well, where’s the warming? The argument seems to be 1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas, 2) Humans burn fossil fuels, which release CO2 (and other greenhouse gases), 3) Atmospheric CO2 levels have increased, 4) Therefore, the warming must be due to burning fossil fuels.
The above mixes facts with conclusions. It is generally accepted, but not necessarily “proven” that humans are responsible for the increase in atmospheric CO2, for example. And if #4 is true, well, where’s the warming?

Santa Baby
July 7, 2014 2:48 pm

No one can prove scientifically that God does not exist. And no one can prove scientifically that God exists.
Don’t fall for it. Just demand that he can scientifically validate/verify what is anthropogenic climate change and what is not?

richard verney
July 7, 2014 3:19 pm

HenryP says:
July 7, 2014 at 2:17 pm
//////////////////
I recall long ago reading a paper on placing premature babies in a CO2 enriched atmosphere. I cannot recall what the concentration was, maybe about 500 to 600ppm (may be even slightly more). I cannot recall for what lung conditition that this was mooted as beeing advantageous. But there is some research on that.
Certainly CO2 does not appear to be ‘posionous’ until at least 1500ppm is reached. Even then, it is not seen as a significant risk, but rather there are guidelines on the length of exposure since this can impact on cognitive function..
I suspect (but I have not looked into this) that when CO2 is used for enriching the atmosphere of greenhouses, the workers frequently enter those greenhouses without breathing equipment.
And of course, CO2 levels on submarines has often been found to be in the region of 2,000ppm to 3,500ppm, and I seem to recall reading that the US navy has a cap at around 8,000ppm.
Finally, the scare with a doubling of CO2 say to 800ppm is not that the air will be dangerous to breath. It will not be. The scare is that it will lead to warming. Planet Earth has seen high levels of CO2 and life has done just fine, no reason to consider that it cannot cope with a rise to a 1000 or 1500ppm.

July 7, 2014 4:26 pm

Alberta Slim says:
July 7, 2014 at 1:56 pm
“Also: If I fill the vaccum space in my thermos bottle with 100% CO2, will my coffee stay hot longer than when my thermos has only a vacuum??”
The secret to the vacuum in the thermos is the mirrored surface. It reduces radiation and then the vacuum eliminates conduction and convection.
Get rid of the mirrored surface and your vacuum thermos wouldn’t work as well as regular good old foam insulation. Nothing is simple.
Here is a question for you. If you have a sheet of aluminum does it make a difference whether the dull side is out or in when you bake with it? Hint it works the same as CO2.

July 7, 2014 4:39 pm

Mi Cro says:
July 7, 2014 at 2:11 pm
“I see much larger differences, other than the really hot humid days, so the difference between your 20 degree differences and my 60-80 degree F differences is, wait for it, water vapor, not Co2. And where I live (yet again), there just isn’t an unlimited amount of water (well that’s not really true, I live 30 miles from Lake Erie, and yet we still have low (er) humidity days).”
It is pretty humid here in the Bahamas and South most of the time, and our measurements agree, in that humidity and water vapor is the biggest factor in atmospheric radiation.
This is important, the difference in atmospheric temperature, between clouds and clear sky, is greater with less humidity. That doesn’t disprove the CO2 theory, but it illustrates that CO2 radiation is almost unmeasurable. Whereas anyone with an IR Gun can easily measure H2O Radiation.

Reply to  Genghis
July 7, 2014 5:02 pm

“That doesn’t disprove the CO2 theory, but it illustrates that CO2 radiation is almost unmeasurable. Whereas anyone with an IR Gun can easily measure H2O Radiation.”
Exactly!
Not only in IR, but the temperature record as well.

Kurt
July 7, 2014 7:31 pm

Alberta Slim says:
July 7, 2014 at 6:49 am
“Please think about this: Put a pot of water on the stove and bring it to a boil. What is the temperature? 100C. Right? Now, turn up the heat. The water boils faster but the temperature stays the same. SO! Any heat picked up by the CO2 also radiates to space faster, thus keeping the earth in equlibrium [on average].”
First, how precisely does heat radiate to space “faster” by first being intercepted by additional CO2 in the atmosphere? If the heat has been “picked up” by CO2 then the CO2 has slowed radiation of the heat from the Earth. Remember, the CO2 absorbs radiation that would otherwise just go straight out to space.
Second, your analogy to adding heat to boiling water is not apt for two reasons. First, adding CO2 to the atmosphere does not add heat to the system – it makes the system more inefficient at discarding the given amount of heat that is already added to it, and hence the system must respond by increasing its temperature to shed the same amount of heat that it did before CO2 was added. Second, the only reason the temperature of water (temporarily) stays the same in your analogy is because it involves a phase change at 100C where heat is used to convert the water molecules to steam, and after the phase change the steam certainly increases in temperature so long as heat is still added. Certainly you are not arguing that CO2 responds to the absorption of radiation by changing phase to a liquid or solid so as to maintain a constant temperature?
Konrad says:
July 6, 2014 at 9:52 pm
“Two important points – First the effective (not apparent) IR emissivity of liquid water is less than 0.8 . . . The 0.95 figure that climastrologists foolishly put into their failed S-B equations was for apparent emissivity. That is the emissivity setting you use for measuring water temp when cavity effect and holdraum effect are occurring. Second, water vapour evaporated into the atmosphere has effectively increased the radiating area of the surface, as it is now radiating in 3D.”
Neither of these points are relevant. Regardless of the emissivity value used, adding CO2 to the atmosphere can only increase temperatures. And arguing that water vapor added to the air as a response to the increased CO2 will increase the radiating surface of the air makes sense only as a negative feedback to reduce the temperature increase, but it does not show the absence of any temperature increase in the first instance. For that matter, why are you concerned at all with the oceans? Adding CO2 to the atmosphere intercepts outbound surface radiation, and in response the CO2 in the air must heat up to discard the extra energy. That’s a temperature increase, even before the intercepted outbound radiation even has a chance to hit the oceans.
You seem to be confusing a first property common to all matter (radiative cooling) with a second property (infrared absorption) common to only a subset of gasses. EVEN IF the net effect of the air over oceans was to cool the oceans, and EVEN IF the only cooling mechanism for the air is radiation to space, you still can’t ignore that the oceans (and land) ALSO cool by radiating directly to space, bypassing the cooling effect of the air over the oceans from conduction and convection. Adding an infrared absorber to the air causes the air to intercept that outgoing radiation and send part of it right back towards the oceans and the land, thereby not only raising the temperature of the air due to the newly intercepted radiation, but also decreasing the net radiation from the surface, causing the surface temperature to rise.
If I cool a CPU with a water-cooled radiator such that the radiator has a net cooling effect on the CPU (your premise number 1), and the only mechanism for the radiator to cool is radiation (your premise number 2), it does not logically follow that making the radiator less effective by say constricting the flow of water through one of the turns, can have no adverse effect on the temperature of the processor (your conclusion). As long as I move from state 1 to state 2, which makes it more difficult for the processor to discard heat, the processor will heat up.

July 7, 2014 8:12 pm

This was outstanding. Thanks

Konrad
July 7, 2014 9:05 pm

Kurt says:
July 7, 2014 at 7:31 pm
——————————-
Remember, without radiative gases, our atmosphere has no effective cooling mechanism.
The question I posed at the start of this thread is critical to understanding the whole AGW question –
“given 1 bar pressure, is the NET effect of the atmosphere over the oceans warming or cooling of the oceans?”
You could also ask –
“how hot would our oceans get in the absence of DWLWIR and atmospheric cooling?”
The answer to the first is cooling. The answer to the second is around 80C or beyond, just like an evaporation constrained solar pond.
So the atmosphere is dramatically cooling 71% of the planets surface. Now, how does the atmosphere cool?

ironargonaut
July 7, 2014 10:33 pm

I have a more succinct answer.
Temperature is not equal to heat nor a measurement of heat nor is there a linear relationship between the two.. Therefore, temperature alone can not be used as a measurement of whether or not the climate is changing due to heat generation from man.

Reply to  ironargonaut
July 8, 2014 6:17 am

ironargonaut commented on

Temperature is not equal to heat nor a measurement of heat nor is there a linear relationship between the two.. Therefore, temperature alone can not be used as a measurement of whether or not the climate is changing due to heat generation from man.

While I completely agree with this (well sort of), If you think historical surface temp data is shaggy, Dew Point is worse, more missing data, plus no indication when it was measured. I suppose you could just ignore that, but that just compounds the error in the heat content measurement you’re trying to get to.
I’m pretty sure the error in the temperature field they use to get to GAT is larger than the trend they’re looking for already.

Kurt
July 7, 2014 11:21 pm

Konrad says:
July 7, 2014 at 9:05 pm
“Remember, without radiative gases, our atmosphere has no effective cooling mechanism.”
I have a hard time making sense out of this statement. To what are you referring when you say “radiative gasses?” Everything above a temperature of absolute zero radiates, whether it is a liquid, a solid, or a gas. If you’re trying to say that without IR absorbers like CO2, methane, and water vapor, the atmosphere would not be able to cool, then you are wrong (and I think you do mean this based on prior posts about “adding radiative gasses” like CO2 to the atmosphere). Any atmosphere, of any composition, radiates into space at an amount proportional to the fourth power of its temperature in Kelvin. It will simply raise its temperature to the point where the outflow of heat equals the inflow of heat.
If you trying to say that, without gasses that radiate, the atmosphere would have no effective cooling mechanism, this may be trivially true, but without gasses that radiate, an atmosphere wouldn’t be an atmosphere to begin with. It’s like saying that without any wood, leaves, bark, or roots, a tree floating in a vacuum would have no effective cooling mechanism. Yeah, but then again there wouldn’t be a tree that needed a cooling mechanism, either.

July 8, 2014 12:36 am

Kurt, according to consensus, the bulk of the atmosphere (N2, O2) cannot radiate significantly. They claim/agree that without the so-called greenhouse gases (and clouds), all of the terrestrial LW radiation would come from the surface and basically zero from the atmosphere. With the GHGs, as it is, ~90% is atmospheric radiation (including clouds) and only ~10% is directly from the surface (the window).
http://pmm.nasa.gov/education/sites/default/files/article_images/components2.gif