Guest essay by Steven Burnett
Most of my income is derived from tutoring, with part being tied into the Google helpouts system. One of my most loyal customers for my physics and mathematics tutoring sent me a link to a $10,000 reward challenge for skeptics. Which is now up to $30,000, seen here.
Below is what I wrote back with minor edits. While I could have added more links, or graphs, I feel that this synopsis is the most compact skeptic’s case, without dropping off too many details. Perhaps I should submit it for $30,000.
These kinds of challenges pop up all the time here’s one for creationism:
The problem with the climate change challenge is that no one is denying that there is likely an anthropogenic signal. The question is how much.
This article probably offers one of the better overviews of the issue
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2014/06/20/global-warming-of-the-earths-surface-has-decelerated-viewpoint/
You can demonstrate in a lab that CO2 absorbs IR wavelengths within the same range as the earth gives off. The data shows that the northern hemisphere has had a shift in the mean temperature since before the industrial revolution.
Overwhelmingly the people pushing the issue like to try to box skeptics in by presenting it as an all or nothing issue, which those who don’t read skeptic statements take on faith. In reality the skeptic’s side has a much larger range of stances on the issues, I have tried to bold them out. There are some people who make ridiculously stupid claims that there is no anthropogenic signal but it’s a very small minority. Many skeptics feel that they are just internet trolls, we try not to feed them.
A better way to examine skeptics is to look at them as scientific critics, and more specifically to evaluate the criticisms as issues with each step of the scientific method in climate science fields. The standard scientific method goes:
Observations->Hypothesis->Experiment->Analysis. If we were to go back to the ’90’s Then we could state that this was doled out as…
Observations: A warming/CO2 concentration correlation and CO2 absorbs IR spectra, the same trend in the ice core data existed,
Hypothesis: Emissions cause global warming,
Experiment: Climate Model,
Analysis: a close approximation of the hind cast, statistically significant temperature increases, hockey sticks, etc. Through the late 1990’s and early 2000’s the conclusion that global warming is real was scientifically acceptable. The next stage is usually peer review and scrutiny and this is where the theory ran into problems.
The Problems:
The observations aren’t very good prior to the late ’70’s and they get worse as we go back to the earliest records. We weren’t looking for tenths of a degree trends and we weren’t controlling our instruments for them. Stations have been moved, cities have grown etc, all of which would induce a warming bias on those stations, the data is frankly of poor quality. But there are other problems that came up. The ice core data, using better instrumentation, actually shows CO2 lagging behind temperature changes. More importantly temperatures stopped rising on all data sets, but CO2 levels continued their upward expansion. We also have not detected the “hot spot” that was sure to be proof of an anthropogenic contribution.
Our Hypothesis for how the climate system operates is essentially coded into the climate models. There are 114 of them that are used by the IPCC all of them are going up, all of them are rising faster than observations and most of them have been falsified. But the work falsifying them is very recent.
This paper falsifies the last 20 years of simulations at the 90% confidence interval, within that blog entry you can find another paper that falsifies them at the 98% confidence interval. That paper cites a third that falsified at the 95% confidence interval. What this means is that there is less than a 10%, 2% or 5% chance that the models are wrong by chance.
As the models are mathematical representations of how we think the climate system operates, that means climate scientists were wrong. In response there has been a flurry of activity attempting to attribute the pause and explain it, but explaining a problem with mathematical models after it occurred and claiming that your hypothesis will still be born out requires its own period of time to validate.
There are well over 10 different attributions at this point for the pause, most of them entirely explaining it away. This means the pause in its current state is over explained and more than one of those papers is wrong. In science we aim for a chance at being wrong of 5%, apparently climate science gets a pass.
This divergence also has impacted the metric known as climate sensitivity. Climate sensitivities note a thermal increase of 1.2-1.5 C per doubling of CO2, as in if we went form the current 400ppm CO2 to 800PPM CO2 the temperatures would rise approximately 1.2-1.5 degrees, climate simulations produce much higher results typically between 3 and 4.5 degrees per doubling.
Digging even further there are major issues with the models, our experiments, themselves. Depending on the compiler, operating system and even hardware modeling output can change due to rounding errors. They can’t predict clouds. Nor do they have the resolution to see many of the atmospheric processes that transport heat. But that’s only the climate models themselves. The impact models, or integrated assessment models have almost no data upon which to base their claims. That’s why the IPCC stated that the costs of climate change for 2.5 degrees of warming range from .2%-2% of world GDP. This is again for predictions almost 100 years in the future, which at this time are untestable and unfalsifiable.
When evaluating the cost of a ton of CO2 emissions the integrated assessment models depend very heavily on the discount rate. The current administration cites a discount rate of 3% at 37$ per ton but the most appropriate discount rate, and the one which long term assessments are supposed to be performed at is 7%. This means the actual social cost of carbon is about 4-5$ per ton. As was discussed in an EPW senate hearing, the current administration has failed to produce the 7% discount rate as is required and instead produced 5%, 3% and 2.5% rates. The reason the cost varies so much is partially due to uncertainty in the integrated assessment models which are fed the outputs of the GCM’s. A common coding colloquialism is GIGO garbage in garbage out.
But the worst issue is the analysis. As part of the attempts to preserve the theory there have been some gross statistical practices and data torture employed. The first monstrosity to be slain was Michael Mann’s hockey stick which used a special algorithm to weight his tree samples. That was taken down by Steven McIntyre a statistician who proved not only the weighting issue, but also found the splice point of thermometer data when the proxy and thermometer temperatures diverged.
There have since been several other hockey-sticks, all of which go down as giant flaming piles of poo. Trenberth’s hockey stick, also from dendrochronology, died when it was pointed out that he was using a special sub-selection of only 12 trees, and that when his entire data set was used the hockey-stick disappeared. In 2013 Marcott et al published a hockey-stick on his graph that averaged multiple proxies except the the blade portion was generated using only about 3 of the proxies, that weren’t statistically robust, had some proxy date rearrangement issues, which coincided with the industrial revolution.
You have mentioned the 97% consensus papers which do exist but they are atrocious. Cook et al. has been rebutted several times actually I recommend further reading some of the issues that Brandon Schollenberger has pointed out as well, though it’s not peer reviewed. The earlier 97% paper by Doran and Zimmerman was equally stupid the wallstreet journal touched on both but I recommend this site for a thorough critique. Truthfully the number of abstracts and methodologies I have read that are complete garbage from this field is astounding so I’m not going to try to link them all.
The question ultimately becomes what piece of evidence is required before admitting that climate may not be as sensitive to anthropogenic emissions as once thought?
Outside of the problems with their scientific methodology there’s also some ethics issues that seem to keep cropping up. A statistician working for a left leaning think tank was just terminated because he wrote a piece about the statistically weak case for anthropogenic warming. About a month before that Lennart Bengtsson, a climate scientist tried to join a more conservative and skeptical climate change think tan. He had to resign due to threats, authors withdrawing from his papers and general concern for his safety and wellbeing.
A paper of his, focused on the discrepancy between models and observations, was rejected with the rejecting review stating they recommended it in part because they felt it might be harmful. The reviewer also mentioned that climate models should not be validated against observational data. A few years ago it was climate-gate.
A psychology paper tried to name skeptics as conspiracy nuts, when it was retracted citing ethical reasons, the researchers and their community cited it as being perfectly ok to debase your opponents and that the retraction was due to lawsuits. The clamoring defense got so antagonistic the publisher had to reinforce the rejection was due to the papers ethics violations, language and the failure or unwillingness of the authors to make changes. There’s also the paper that says lying and exaggerating results is OK.
If you read skeptical science they try to rebut skeptic claims but nine times out of ten they use strawmen, ad hominems or other logical fallacies. For instance a good argument can be made that cheap affordable fossil fuel energy can greatly improve the poorest nations of the world, and that denying them access to this resource is harmful. They rebut it by pointing out that projected climate damages, impact the poorest nations the most. That might be true but it’s not the same argument. Depriving impoverished nations of the energy they need to grow, enforcing poverty and mandating foreign dependence for 85 years, so that the poor might not have to suffer from as many storms in the future is frankly asinine.
But let’s say you’re not skeptical of the ethics, or their methodological flaws. Let’s say you decide you want avert the future risk now. You can still be skeptical of the proposed solutions. For instance let’s look at energy policy. The cheapest, most effective and simplest energy policy would be a carbon tax. Again 4$ per ton accurately prices future damages. It also allows countries and markets to work instead of hoping bureaucrats don’t screw it up. Essentially a carbon tax penalizes carbon for its actual cost instead of giving enormous power to unelected officials like what the EPA just did.
But maybe you don’t believe in markets, maybe you believe the government isn’t as incompetent as they seem to keep trying to prove. That’s fine, you can still be skeptical of how the money is being spent. In the US solar receives an unbelievable amount of market favoritism, you start by getting a 40% tax credit on every installation. Additionally while all sectors recoup their capital investments over time as the assets depreciate, solar recoups 100% of its cost in under 5 years, that’s less time than an office chair. With these perks solar is still the most expensive form of electricity generation.
When you correct for just the tax credit solar costs increase to almost 140$/mwhr for standard installations, that goes up for thermal solar. Correcting for wind’s tax credit this goes up to about 88$ MwHr. The intermittancy on the grid is an externality that should be accounted for, from there you have to factor in the degradation of wind and solar as a cost factor, which when integrated over their life span multiplies their cost by almost 4.5.
Nuclear at an approximate 96$/MWhr is substantially cheaper, has a lower life cycle carbon emission, lasts longer and is safer. But we only hear about improving renewable contributions when they are literally worse in every way.
These are issues that we can have with the scientific authenticity of the theory. The next step would be falsification, but It’s difficult to find a piece of falsifying evidence. No matter what happens now or in the future global warming/climate change seems to predict it. We have both warmer and cooler spring/summer/fall/winter. There’s droughts and floods, cold/hot. Literally in 2009/2010 we were hearing how climate change will totally cause more snow in winter when just a few years before it was the end of snowy winters. Hell that was four years ago and they were still blaming crappy Olympic conditions on global warming this year, ignoring entirely that the average temperature for that part of Russia in February is above freezing throughout the whole damn record.
We have almost 2 decades of no temperature trend, and a net negative for a little over a decade. That’s apparently not enough. There are periods within this interglacial that have been warmer, and periods that have been cooler. So what is the reference period of a climatic normal? A few hundred years ago temperature spiked without greenhouse gas emissions, the period of 1914-1940 showed a similar rate and trend as the 1980-200 period, why is the latter anthropogenic and the former not? How is CO2 the driving force this time when there is scant to no evidence that it has ever been the major force in the past?
Why should we believe the corrections or explanations for the pause, the same individuals hyping them were the same ones pointing out how perfect the models were just a few years ago? there is no mechanism by which heat remitted in the lower atmosphere magically descends to the deepest layer of the ocean. the one we just started to measure a few years ago and from which there still aren’t reliable measurements, also the region that is bounded by warmer upper oceans and geothermal heating. How does it get there without being detectable in the upper atmosphere, lower atmosphere or upper oceanic level? Nor is there a mechanism to describe how it could possibly all concentrate in the arctic where we also don’t have any measurements.
Where do we draw the scientific line between natural or artificial trends, and how do we know that line is accurate? Why shouldn’t climate science be required to validate? What is falsifying evidence? Faced with the mountain of problems surrounding uncertainty, poor methodology, awful ethics and analysis, most skeptics, myself included just call the whole thing bullshit.
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Stephen Richards says:
July 7, 2014 at 1:58 am
————————————-
“Why does everyone keep saying that AGW is real ?”
I understand there may be a small amount of money involved…
Well that and the reputation of every environmental NGO, most of the world’s journalists and half the world’s politicians.
I am not math savvy and i don’t even know if it’s interesting but, could someone calculate a normal distribution over temp. anomalies or ice coverage of the poles (or northern reps. southern hemispheric temp) since the beginning of time as to establish once and for all what the “normal” state for the poles actually is? Is it glaciation or interglacial and what is the “normal” temp.?
Hope you understand what I am asking.
“We all can quibble about how heat gets moved around from one part of the Earth to another before it gets cast back off into space, but given that the Earth (land, water, and air) is wrapped in a vacuum, the only mechanism that the Earth as a whole has to shed the heat it receives from the Sun is to radiate it back into space. Adding more increments of CO2 to the atmosphere can only incrementally add to the time that the Earth as a whole churns the heat around before radiating it back into space, making it a less efficient radiator. A less efficient radiator has to raise its temperature to achieve a new equilibrium.”
Non-evaporative heat transfer dominates the Earth’s surface cooling (~60% of the total, the rest being the net surface LW, including the direct LW to space). Atmospheric radiation to space dominates the total planetary cooling (~90%, the rest being the direct surface LW to space). I don’t see how more CO2 makes the Earth a less efficient radiator. On the face of it, it looks like a more efficient radiator, with higher atmospheric emissivity.
http://pmm.nasa.gov/education/sites/default/files/article_images/components2.gif
Use the electrical analogy and concept of thermal resistance, which can provide us with a good deal of guidance in the solution of the Earth’s surface and total planetary heat transfer problem. At the surface/atmosphere interface we have three thermal resistances (evaporation, convection and net LW) connected in parallel, plus the resistance of the direct surface LW to space (the window), which creates a shortcut directly to space. At the TOA, we have the resistance of atmospheric LW to space, plus the already mentioned shortcut.
A few points on the current comment thread
1) I see one of the regulars has claimed someone is very close to “Sl@yer Nonsense” (TM)
I first found out what a “Sl@yer” was and that talk of it was banned when I asked a question after an exchange similar to that on the first half of this thread (all I have read so far). I am disappointed that we complain about the alarmist religion refusing debate while we do the same. I think there is a word for that.
2) The Scottish Skeptic wrote an interesting post in which he claimed that mainstream skeptics and “Sky Dr@gons” had the same theory basically but looked at it wrong. (both sides are slightly wrong according to him) It was a little off-putting that he got their name wrong, but he had their position down ok.
http://scottishsceptic.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/reconciling-skydragons-and-mainstream-skeptics/
3) It is a Fracking Fact that mankind has effected the climate of the planet earth. One of the biggest impacts is deforestation. Another is agriculture and raising meat-food animals. How much of an impact? I would say that man’s impact is tiny compared to other things, but we can never prove man had no impact since, clearly, mankind has impacted the climate.
4) We are presently in an ice age. Yes, an ice age. We are presently in an inter-glacial portion of the current ice age. The interglacial ages have been getting colder each time according to the proxy series. I would like to see the alarmists tell me why I should not pray for a warming back up so warm as to end the ice age itself. But at the very least I would like the gods to give us warmth equal to the warmest interglacial of this present ice age. [NOTE: I love working in the yard in full sun when it is over 90 F and the humidity is nice and high so some might call me crazy]
5) Let us never forget that the present climate “debate” is almost purely political. Under the scientific method, the question was settled long ago, but under the rules of modern government funded “science” the “debate” drags on like a zombie. (and makes about as much sense as “The Walking Dead” show)
~ Mark
Non-radiative heat transfer dominates…
Here is the submission I made that clearly proves there is no man made global warming.
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2013/02/21/henrys-pool-tables-on-global-warmingcooling/
This is my proof to win the $30,000 so please don’t steal it! 😉
Global climate change, requires that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP), whose existence is uncontested, was not global in extent (Because it would imply that the signal of natural variability is larger than the flux of the contemporary instrumental record).
However, if this argument is true, it ‘gives the lie’ to the notion of “global climate change”!
If the ‘climate change’ of the MWP was geographically limited, how can climate change be said to be global!
You have to think about this a little but it is logically watertight (Both deductively and inductively IMHO).
This is not a semantic argument, it could be fully fleshed out.
Steven Burnett says:
July 7, 2014 at 3:13 am
Steve, that’s not how it works. CO2, like all matter, can only emit radiation at the same wavelengths that it absorbs it.
If an exited CO2 molecule collides with another air molecule before it can emit its photon then it reverts to its ground state and can no longer emit a photon. The energy is converted into ‘translational energy’, i.e. the increased momentum of the molecules involved in the collision. This is called ‘thermalisation’. The CO2 molecule cannot emit its photon after being ‘thermalised’.
Thank you george e. smith at 1:37 am above. Your comment has given me much to think about.
Amen.
ladylifegrows says:
July 6, 2014 at 7:48 pm
I would like to see Konrad’s comment here expanded to a full article. I have a physicist friend I would like to show that to.
Hear, hear! I second the request!
SanityP says:
July 7, 2014 at 3:51 am
I am not math savvy and i don’t even know if it’s interesting but, could someone calculate a normal distribution over temp. anomalies or ice coverage of the poles (or northern reps. southern hemispheric temp) since the beginning of time as to establish once and for all what the “normal” state for the poles actually is? Is it glaciation or interglacial and what is the “normal” temp.?
SanityP, it’s certainly interesting to geologists. Our host has a page devoted to charts. At the top, go to “Reference Pages->Global Temperature: Climate->Paleoclimate” and scroll down.
Short version: Earth is normally too warm for permanent, year-round ice anywhere on the planet, even at the poles. For nearly 80% of the last 4 billion years, Earth has had snow and ice only in winter. Eras when there is permanent, year-round ice, we call “ice ages”. Even the interglacial stages of ice ages are abnormally cold for this planet. A “normal” Antarctic has forests.
Amusingly, CO2 was at 4400 ppm (11 times the present) 460 million years ago — during a particularly bitter ice age.
I dunno the CO2 atmospheric science but I do know that an absence of correlation means an absence of causation — and the only correlation between CO2 and climate is in reverse: when the climate warms, then the CO2 increases. Even Venus is no warmer than it should be just from being closer to the sun — when you account for the effects of atmospheric pressure.
” There are some people who make ridiculously stupid claims that there is no anthropogenic signal but it’s a very small minority.”
Oh, really? If there is evidence of an anthropogenic signal, please let me know. If you believe that increasing CO2 increases the temperature, please show me evidence from the past, where it can be proven that a step change in CO2 was followed by a corresponding step change in temperature. This might be difficult, as the ice cores clearly show that CO2 followed the temperature, and not the other way around.
Nearly half of the modern warming occurred before there was enough CO2. And in this century, when CO2 has increased by around 10%, why has there been zero global warming?
How do we know that the modern warming was simply a rebound from the Little Ice Age? The data shows a good correlation between temperature and the amount of clouds globally. How do we know it didn’t get warmer simply because there were less clouds?
Some amount of warming may have occurred because of human CO2 emissions. But if so, show me the data. Show me the proof.
Chris
One cannot prove a negative, so the manner in which the challenge is framed, is fundamentally flawed.
But of course, man has an affect on climate, at any rate at a regional level and on a micro climatic basis. But in making such a comment, one has to define what is meant by climate, or a change of climate.
Is a warming of a few tenths of a degree C, a climatic change? Personally, I do not consider it to be, but that is subjective, since I would wish to see a change in weather patterns such as rainfall, snow, frosts, essentially some zonal shifting between the different Koppen (or Trewartha) classification.
We all know about UHI, this raises the temps of large urbanisations by several degreesC (perhaps even more), and has a significant effect on night time temps. So depending upon how you define matters, UHI is an obvious man made impact on climate (but limited to the places that have been urbanised).
A more obvious micro climatic change takes place when we dam rivers and flood valleys. This does more than simply change local temps, it can change rainfall, patterns and the like. Ditto, de forestation.
So no one can seriously and convincingly argue that manmade climate change does not exist. Land use, clearly confirms that it does exist, at any rate on a regional and micro cllmatic basis. The isse is CO2. is this a player?.
Personally, I do not see how any genuine scientist can say that there is a signal to CO2 in the data sets (other than in data sets dealing solely with the measurement of CO2 such as Mauna Loa data), still less that CO2 drives temperature (as opposed to being a response), still even less that a temperature/cliamte response to manmade emissions can be dedected.
The data sets are all way too flawwed, the error magins so large, noisy with nautural variation etc. such that no signal to manmade emissions can be made out.
That does not mean that there is no signaal, but merely that presently, we cannot separate the signal from the noise such that it cannot yet be detected. I consider that to be the honest interpretation of the observational data that we have, and that is of course why, there is over reliance upon models since CO2 induced AGW exists only in computer simulations.
Steven Burnett writes:
“Nuclear at an approximate 96$/MWhr is substantially cheaper, has a lower life cycle carbon emission, lasts longer and is safer. But we only hear about improving renewable contributions when they are literally worse in every way.”
Nuclear power costs far more than $96/MWhr – which is 9.6 cents per kWh.
Even in France, with 85 percent of its power by nuclear plants, and heavily subsidized by government, industrial users pay 11.6 cents per kWh compared to US at 6.7 cents, and France residential price is 17.5 cents per kWh compared to US at 11.9 cents per kWh. This shows that France, with almost a full nuclear-powered grid, charges approximately double for industrial power (11.6 vs 6.7), and approximately 50 percent more for residential prices (17.5 vs 11.9). French prices would surely be much higher, if France did not export power but had to throttle back each night, and if subsidies were fully forbidden. These prices are for France’s old, depreciated plants, but new plants must charge far more to cover the much higher capital costs.
See Following France in Nuclear Is Not The Way To Go at
http://sowellslawblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-truth-about-nuclear-power-part.html
See also Preposterous Power Pricing if Nuclear Power Proponents Prevail at
http://sowellslawblog.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-truth-about-nuclear-power-part-two.html
Every time CO2 reaches a maximum we re-glaciate… So CO2 warms until it cools.
I will gladly pay anyone $50,000 if they can prove that we don’t really live inside a hologram, and that the Matrix wasn’t a documentary. Oh, and I, and I alone, get to say what is “proof” and what is not, and anyone who disputes my ruling is automatically disqualified from the contest.
(Ok, that is just an illustration of a) the impossibility of “proving a negative”, and b) the ridiculous terms which apply to the contest which is the subject of the article I’m responding to)
Re:
“The problem with the climate change challenge is that no one is denying that there is likely an anthropogenic signal. The question is how much.”
Dr Keating states the following clearly on his website (his capitalisation):
“IF YOU ARE SAYING MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT REAL AND YOU CAN PROVE IT, I AM GIVING YOU THE CHANCE. IF YOU ARE NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, THEN THIS CHALLENGE IS NOT FOR YOU.” http://dialoguesonglobalwarming.blogspot.co.uk/p/blog-page_1.html
The challenge is only for people who reject man made global warming completely. It’s not for people who accept it but question its extent. Since the author of the above article clearly accepts that man made global warming is to at least some extent a reality then, as Dr Keating makes perfectly clear, the challenge is not for him. So what’s the point of his article?
Roger I’m talking levelized cost not retail. This is a common mistake typically made by advocates.
David.
The reason this is relevant has to do with our understanding on the theory behind global warming. The theory is wrong based on observable data. Having an effect is something that is different from 0. We must have an effect, but whether man made global warming is something that is detectable or not is up for debate. A failure to clearly detect the signal is Indistinguishable from no warming effect. And the challenge specifically asks for evidence that refutes an anthropogenic impact.
The statement made by Dr Keating and the resulting challenge should therefore be open to any evidence falsifying the theory.
Mikeb,
I’m aware that many of the photons should be remitted at near the same wavelengths it is capable of absorbing. However I struggle with the idea that it is remitted at the exact same wavelength. That would imply an energy change that is 100% efficient while possible It’s what happens.
Glow in the dark materials tend to absorb high frequency photons in the uv range and remit them at much lower energies some period of time later. Neon materials do the same thing but with a significantly shorter lapse. Considering there are numerous micro peaks in the IR profile of co2 and minor losses could still occur and keep the photons at close to the same wavelength I believe the statement as I wrote is technically correct but minor variations in wavelength would still keep remitted photons within the absorption range of other co2 molecules.
Kurt says:
July 6, 2014 at 9:17 pm
Alberta Slim says:
July 6, 2014 at 8:41 pm
“I agree with Konrad . . . CO2 does the same thing. It is a gas; it expands and rises when heated, and also carries the heat to the upper atmosphere.
CO2 does not, imo, act like a solid [blanket], and just lie there and “trap” heat.”
“We all can quibble about how heat gets moved around from one part of the Earth to another before it gets cast back off into space, but given that the Earth (land, water, and air) is wrapped in a vacuum, the only mechanism that the Earth as a whole has to shed the heat it receives from the Sun is to radiate it back into space. Adding more increments of CO2 to the atmosphere can only incrementally add to the time that the Earth as a whole churns the heat around before radiating it back into space, making it a less efficient radiator. A less efficient radiator has to raise its temperature to achieve a new equilibrium.”
KURT:
” Adding more increments of CO2 to the atmosphere can only incrementally add to the time that the Earth as a whole churns the heat around before radiating it back into space, making it a less efficient radiator. A less efficient radiator has to raise its temperature to achieve a new equilibrium.”
I believe that you are incorrect.
Please think about this: Put a pot of water on the stove and bring it to a boil. What is the temperature? 100C. Right? Now, turn up the heat. The water boils faster but the temperature stays the same. SO! Any heat picked up by the CO2 also radiates to space faster, thus keeping the earth in equlibrium [on average].
Chris Wright says:
July 7, 2014 at 6:00 am
” There are some people who make ridiculously stupid claims that there is no anthropogenic signal but it’s a very small minority.”
Oh, really? If there is evidence of an anthropogenic signal, please let me know.
We skeptics sure do quibble over wording, but perhaps it is simply in our DNA?
The word “signal” is the problem here. A “signal” should be detectable. So, I agree with you that there is no detectable signal. I also agree, it is not a “ridiculously stupid claim” to say there is not.
However, the physics does suggest that there probably is an anthropogenic effect on the climate. In the case of our discussion, anthropogenic CO2 emissions could be having an effect. No detectable “signal”, but a theoretical effect nonetheless.
I believe it would be more helpful to the skeptic cause if we would refrain from calling fellow skeptics stupid.
We (folks who post here) have been down this path before. There isn’t a simple “this is what skeptics believe” statement, although I keep pushing the Oregon Petition statement, as I did in an earlier post in this thread. In that regard, stating what one thinks is other skeptics opinion almost always garners an “I do not” post.
Just making an observation.
“ridiculously stupid claims that there is no anthropogenic signal” – where is the proof of the anthropogenic signal . . . scientific proof that is . .? If there is no proof then it can hardly be described as “ridiculously stupid” to “claim” there is no such signal and place the onus of proof on those who would attribute blame. . . And this was the starting point of this essay!!. . . If there is an anthropogenic signal, what is the extent of its contribution?
The fundamental problem in this whole war of words and ideologies is natural variation . . . we don’t know what the climate would have been, whether exactly as it is, colder, or – yes, even that – warmer than it is . . without that knowledge the rest is guesswork informed by embattled statistics that would often be inaccurate before we started to bully them into the shape we prefer . . .
This was interesting but the offer of $30,000 is a joke. What he is asking to be disproven is ” increased concentrations of greenhouse gasses have cause the globe to warm” or increases in the concentration of gasses that cause the globe to warm will cause the globe to warm. in his understanding of what is to be disproven there is no quantification or designation of anything. He is not interested in discussing the impact of an increase of a specific concentration of any particualr gas.
My advice is that if you like this type of game take your life savings and buy lottery tickets, the chance of success is greater.
A bit OT but I need info. I hear all the time about the 390ppm CO2 at the mid troposphere but as CO2 is heavier than air and must be down here where we are and can be absorbed by plants and the sea – what is the concentration down here? And is the great variation all down here too?
If this is very obvious, sorry, but please bear with me. Thanks.