Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I thought I was done with sunspots … but as the well-known climate scientist Michael Corleone once remarked, “Just when I thought I was out … they pull me back in”. In this case Marcel Crok, the well-known Dutch climate writer, asked me if I’d seen the paper from Nir Shaviv called “Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing”, available here. Dr. Shaviv’s paper claims that both the ocean heat content and the ocean sea surface temperature (SST) vary in step with the ~11 year solar cycle. Although it’s not clear what “we” means when he uses it, he says:
“We find that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations, thus implying the necessary existence of an amplification mechanism, though without pointing to which one.” Since the ocean heat content data is both spotty and incomplete, I looked to see if the much more extensive SST data actually showed signs of the claimed solar-related variation.
To start with, here’s what Shaviv2008 says about the treatment of the data:
Before deriving the global heat flux from the observed ocean heat content, it is worth while to study in more detail the different data sets we used, and in particular, to better understand their limitations. Since we wish to compare them to each other, we begin by creating comparable data sets, with the same resolution and time range. Thus, we down sample higher resolution data into one year bins and truncate all data sets to the range of 1955 to 2003.
I assume the 1955 start of their data is because the ocean heat content data starts in 1955. Their study uses the HadISST dataset, the “Ice and Sea Surface Temperature” data, so I went to the marvelous KNMI site and got that data to compare to the sunspot data. Here are the untruncated versions of the SIDC sunspot and the HadISST sea surface temperature data.
Figure 1. Sunspot numbers (upper panel) and sea surface temperatures (lower panel).
So … is there a solar component to the SST data? Well, looking at Figure 1, for starters we can say that if there is a solar component to SST, it’s pretty small. How small? Well, for that we need the math. I often start with a cross-correlation. A cross-correlation looks not only at how well correlated two datasets might be. It also shows how well correlated the two datasets are with a lag between the two. Figure 2 shows the cross-correlation between the sunspots and the SST:
Figure 2. Cross-correlation, sunspots and sea surface temperatures. Note that they are not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
So … I’m not seeing anything significant in the cross-correlation over full overlap of the two datasets, which is the period 1870-2013. However, they haven’t used the full dataset, only the part from 1955 to 2003. That’s only 49 years … and right then I start getting nervous. Remember, we’re looking for an 11-year cycle. So results from that particular half-century of data only represent three complete solar cycles, and that’s skinny … but in any case, here’s cross-correlation on the truncated datasets 1955-2003:
Figure 3. Cross-correlation, truncated sunspots and sea surface temperatures 1955-2003. Note that while they are larger than for the full dataset, they are still not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
Well, I can see how if all you looked at was the shortened datasets you might believe that there is a correlation between SST and sunspots. Figure 3 at least shows a positive correlation with no lag, one which is almost statistically significant if you ignore autocorrelation.
But remember, in the cross-correlation of the complete dataset shown back in Figure 2, the no-lag correlation is … well … zero. The apparent correlation shown in the half-century dataset disappears entirely when we look at the full 140-year dataset.
This highlights a huge recurring problem with analyzing natural datasets and looking for regular cycles. Regular cycles which are apparently real appear, last for a half century or even a century, and then disappear for a century …
Now, in Shaviv2008, the author suggests a way around this conundrum, viz:
Another way of visualizing the results, is to fold the data over the 11-year solar cycle and average. This reduces the relative contribution of sources uncorrelated with the solar activity as they will tend to average out (whether they are real or noise).
In support of this claim, he shows the following figure:
Figure 4. This shows Figure 5 from the Shaviv2008 paper. Of interest to this post is the top panel, showing the ostensible variation in the averaged cycles.
Now, I’ve used this technique myself. However, if I were to do it, I wouldn’t do it the way he has. He has aligned the solar minimum at time t=0, and then averaged the data for the 11 years after that. If I were doing it, I think I’d align them at the peak, and then take the averages for say six years on either side of the peak.
But in any case, rather than do it my way, I figured I’d see if I could emulate his results. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues right away when I started to do the actual calculations. Here’s the first issue:
Figure 5. The data used in Shaviv2008 to show the putative sunspot-SST relationship.
I’m sure you can see the problem. Because the dataset is so short (n = 49 years), there are only four solar minima—1964, 1976, 1986, and 1996. And since the truncated data ends in 2003, that means that we only have three complete solar cycles during the period.
This leads directly to a second problem, which is the size of the uncertainty of the results of the “folded” data. With only three full cycles to analyze, the uncertainty gets quite large. Here are the three folded datasets, along with the mean and the 95% confidence interval on the mean.
Figure 6. Sea surface temperatures from three full solar cycles, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Now, when I’m looking for a repetitive cycle, I look at the 95% confidence interval of the mean. If the 95%CI includes the zero line, it means the variation is not significant. The problem in Figure 6, of course, is the fact that there are only three cycles in the dataset. As a result, the 95%CI goes “from the floor to the ceiling”, as the saying goes, and the results are not significant in the slightest.
So why does the Shaviv2008 result shown in Figure 4 look so convincing? Well … it’s because he’s only showing one standard error as the uncertainty in his results, when what is relevant is the 95%CI. If he showed the 95%CI, it would be obvious that the results are not significant.
However, none of that matters. Why not? Well, because the claimed effect disappears when we use the full SST and sunspot datasets. Their common period goes from 1870 through 2013, so there are many more cycles to average. Figure 7 shows the same type of “folded” analysis, except this time for the full period 1870-2013:
Figure 7. Sea surface temperatures from all solar cycles from 1870-2013, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Here, we see the same thing that was revealed by the cross-correlation. The apparent cycle that seemed to be present in the most recent half-century of the data, the apparent cycle that is shown in Shaviv2008, that cycle disappears entirely when we look at the full dataset. And despite having a much narrower 95%CI because we have more data, once again there is no statistically significant departure from zero. At no time do we see anything unexplainable or unusual at all
And so once again, I find that the claims of a connection between the sun and climate evaporate when they are examined closely.
Let me be clear about what I am saying and not saying here. I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the climate.
What I am saying is that I still haven’t found any convincing sign of the ~11-year sunspot cycle in any climate dataset, nor has anyone pointed out such a dataset. And without that, it’s very hard to believe that even smaller secular variations in solar strength can have a significant effect on the climate.
So, for what I hope will be the final time, let me put out the challenge once again. Where is the climate dataset that shows the ~11-year sunspot/magnetism/cosmic rays/solar wind cycle? Shaviv echoes many others when he claims that there is some unknown amplification mechanism that makes the effects “about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations” … however, I’m not seeing it. So where can we find this mystery ~11-year cycle?
Please use whatever kind of analysis you prefer to demonstrate the putative 11-year cycle—”folded” analysis as above, cross-correlation, wavelet analysis, whatever.
Regards,
w.
My Usual Request: If you disagree with someone, myself included, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. This prevents many flavors of misunderstanding, and lets us all see just what it is that you think is incorrect.
Subject: This post is about the quest for the 11-year solar cycle. It is not about your pet theory about 19.8 year Jupiter/Saturn synoptic cycles. If you wish to write about them, this is not the place. Take it to Tallbloke’s Talkshop, they enjoy discussing those kinds of cycles. Here, I’m looking for the 11-year sunspot cycles in weather data, so let me ask you kindly to restrict your comments to subjects involving those cycles.
Data and Code: I’ve put the sunspot and HadISST annual data online, along with the R computer code, in a single zipped folder called “Shaviv Folder.zip“
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Very interesting post.
I would like to belatedly contribute to this discussion by:
1. Re-examining confidence intervals and their meaning.
2. Looking at the different effect that strong and weak solar cycles have on the data.
After replicating Shaviv’s results for the truncated analysis, 1955 – 2003, using folding. You concluded:
“If the 95%CI includes the zero line, it means the variation is not significant. The problem in Figure 6, of course, is the fact that there are only three cycles in the dataset. As a result, the 95%CI goes “from the floor to the ceiling”, as the saying goes, and the results are not significant in the slightest.”
I agree that having applied the “Gold Standard” criteria (95%CI), the results are not significant. However, given that good data are limited, and using nomenclature borrowed from the IPCC, you could say that, based on significance at one standard deviation (Shaviv):
“There is likely a correlation between SIDC Sunspot numbers and SST.”
You had another problem with the truncated analysis, 1955 – 2003:
“I’m sure you can see the problem. Because the dataset is so short (n = 49 years), there are only four solar minima—1964, 1976, 1986, and 1996. And since the truncated data ends in 2003, that means that we only have three complete solar cycles during the period.”
Again, I agree with this assessment. You go on to show the folded analysis for the entire dataset 1870 to 2013, and conclude:
“And despite having a much narrower 95%CI because we have more data, once again there is no statistically significant departure from zero.”
And again, I agree. However, the entire SIDC Sunspot dataset has many “weak” sunspot cycles, and it makes sense that what little signal we see in your figure 6 (largely spanning the modern maximum), is completely diluted and hidden by noise in your figure 7.
Your final conclusion:
“And so once again, I find that the claims of a connection between the sun and climate evaporate when they are examined closely.”
What if we take the three strongest cycles (peaking at 1955, 1978 and 1989 and fold them as you suggest:
“If I were doing it, I think I’d align them at the peak, and then take the averages for say six years on either side of the peak.”
But, but with 7 years either side:
(detrended) (90%CI) (90%CI)
Year Ave SST SD +1.64SD -1.64SD
Peak -7 0.07 0.04 0.13 0.00
Peak -6 0.08 0.07 0.21 -0.04
Peak -5 0.11 0.07 0.23 -0.01
Peak -4 0.04 0.02 0.08 0.00
Peak -3 -0.03 0.05 0.06 -0.12
Peak -2 0.05 0.12 0.25 -0.15
Peak -1 0.01 0.02 0.05 -0.03
Peak -0.02 0.08 0.11 -0.15
Peak +1 -0.04 0.11 0.14 -0.21
Peak +2 -0.02 0.13 0.20 -0.23
Peak +3 0.02 0.18 0.31 -0.27
Peak +4 -0.01 0.12 0.19 -0.20
Peak +5 0.00 0.01 0.02 -0.02
Peak +6 0.02 0.08 0.15 -0.11
Peak +7 0.00 0.04 0.06 -0.06
Although the resulting signal in the folded SST averages is still not significant at the 95%CI, it is on the threshold of significance at the 90% confidence interval, allowing us to rephrase our conclusion using a stronger term (again borrowed from the IPCC) than before and adding a medium confidence because of our 3 cycle limit:
“There is very likely a correlation between SIDC Sunspot numbers and SST when the cycles are at their strongest – medium confidence.”
Take the three weakest peaks at 1883, 1893 and 1907, fold the data and the signal disappears completely within the noise, no significance at 1SD, adding weight to the suggestion that only the stronger cycles are worthy of analysis.
(detrended) (68%CI) (68%CI)
Year Ave SST SD +1SD -1SD
Peak -7 0.07 0.04 0.11 0.03
Peak -6 0.08 0.07 0.16 0.01
Peak -5 0.11 0.07 0.18 0.04
Peak -4 0.04 0.02 0.06 0.02
Peak -3 -0.03 0.05 0.02 -0.09
Peak -2 0.05 0.12 0.17 -0.07
Peak -1 0.01 0.02 0.03 -0.02
Peak -0.02 0.08 0.06 -0.10
Peak +1 -0.04 0.11 0.07 -0.15
Peak +2 -0.02 0.13 0.11 -0.15
Peak +3 0.02 0.18 0.20 -0.16
Peak +4 -0.01 0.12 0.11 -0.13
Peak +5 0.00 0.01 0.01 -0.01
Peak +6 0.02 0.08 0.10 -0.06
Peak +7 0.00 0.04 0.04 -0.04
And if the sun is slipping into a quiet phase, maybe this is all the significant data we’ll ever have.
Bill Smillie says:
June 19, 2014 at 11:46 pm
Bill, the IPCC has done science in general a huge disservice by their attempts to convince people that e.g. a 90% CI is worth more than a bucket of warm spit.
It isn’t.
And in particular, it is worthless in climate science, where apparently real cycles bounce into and out of existence like the Cheshire Cat. In science, there is no “likely” and “very likely”, that’s a joke.
Next, you say that
That makes no sense at all. Why should the fact that some cycles are stronger than others mean that the signal would be “completely diluted and hidden by noise’?
Finally, when a signal is so “completely diluted and hidden by noise” that it is lost in the weeds … well, I call that no significant relationship between sunspots and sea surface temperature.
w.
1sky1 says:
June 19, 2014 at 5:23 pm
End this debate? Once again you make an inane claim about what I’ve said without quoting my words. Typical, but understandable, since I’ve said nothing of the sort.
In fact, 1sky1, far from wanting to end this debate, I’m the guy who started this debate about sunspots several posts ago, and I’m more than happy that it’s gone on this long and glad for it to continue.
What I would like, however, is for you to join the debate by actually giving us a worked example, or some data and code, or showing us your results… well, anything but your endless litany about how stupid I am and how smart you are.
You seem to think that repeated claims that I’m wrong somehow make you right. The only way for you to be right is to PRODUCE SOME WORK. So far all you’ve showed us is your big mouth.
Nir Shaviv has shown his work and his results. I’ve shown my work and my results.
And you? You’ves shown nothing but endless uncited, unquoted, unreferenced, and unsupported claims of how much smarter you are than all the rest of us, and how well you understand signal analysis, and oh, yeah, how cataclysmically wrong, ignorant, and stupdi I am.
If you would like to join the debate, 1sky1, rather than continuing to make a fool of yourself by standing on the sidelines and throwing spitballs, please show your work and your results.
It’s called “science”, and it exists only with transparency of data and methods. You should try it some time.
w.
Sturgis Hooper:
The marine data set I referred to may some day become public, but it is not
in my purvue alone to make that happen. I can vouch, however, that if its
analysis ever should go public, then the venue won’t be a blog.
What’s intriguing is the supposition that changing the mind of a blog-writer
with no scientific qualifications ultimately matters. Over the last few
threads I endeavored to steer Willis away from fundamental misconceptions
in geophysical signal analysis, providing references both on-line and in
print, even working an example of the proper power spectrum of the Cascais
sea-level data. It was received with the sound of crickets, broken only by
a barrage of ad hominems. He continued unabashed to other amateurish
misconceptions, far more egregious than those of some inept analysts I’ve
fired in the past. And now, ignoring all my pointers, he continues to hide
the ccf values at long langs, while preaching about how science should
done.
There may be an audience of scientific novices out there in the ether who
can swallow that, what with pretty graphs and smooth sales patter. I’m
certainly not part of it and have none of the ambitions of a blog lion. There
are far bigger fish in government and academia to fry.
farmerbraun says
40.3550° S, 175.6117° E
henry says
if that is your position, then you are probably a retired farmer?
Nevertheless, for the other farmers,
at the higher latitudes >[40] it will become progressively drier, from now onward, ultimately culminating in a big drought period similar to the dust bowl drought 1932-1939. My various calculations all bring me to believe that this main drought period on the Great Plains will be from 2021-2028. It looks like we have only 7 “fat” years left…..
@farmerbraun
sorry, I see now that you live in New Zealand.
Note that I did a study on rainfall in Wellington
I found that between 1930-1940 rainfall in Wellington was 15% lower than the average 1940-2014.
Hence, you can expect the same between 2015-2025
HenryP says:
June 21, 2014 at 8:39 am
Yes , it does make a great deal of difference that I live on a small island in a vast ocean.
So you will be aware that this will likely play out very differently in N.Z.
In all my reading on future climate so far for this region, I have not seen any significant advance on what we were told back in 1999 by Augie Auer ; namely that, for the following 30 or so years, we should expect a predominance of la Nina over el Nino, and that cool wet summers could be expected in about eight years out of ten.
This was in contrast to the period from ca 1975-1998 when el Nino was expected to predominate , and of course we had already experienced mostly hot dry summers throughout that period , to the extent that many thought that this was the norm. I can only recall a couple of slightly wet summers in that entire period.
So the change has been profound on a non-irrigated, pastoral farm on shallow recent soils (river-bed). I have to say that i like it ; the farm is more productive, and feed costs are reduced due to the lengthier period of pasture growth.
The dry summer during la Nina is tough because it is dry and relatively cool, but compared to the lengthy hot dry periods of the previous PDO phase , it is still a breeze to farm with.
The most that one can wish for , is to still be alive when the PDO switches back : it should be fun.
@farmerbraun
-Give me some time (this weekend) to look at that wellington rainfall data again,
perhaps I can provide you with some interesting insight
I will let you know (here) what I find.
note my results for rainfall in Potchefstroom (South Africa)
-25 degrees latitude
(average in mm/yr)
1927-1950 611.7
1951-1971 587
1972-1995 596.1
1996-2013 641.2
(100% correlation on hyperbolic binomial, rsquare=0.9999)
predicted
1904-1927 ca. 587
2017-2039 ca. 596
note my results for rainfall in Wellington (New Zealand)
(average in mm/yr)
1927-1950 1194.68
1951-1971 1261.95
1972-1995 1257.71
1996-2013 1204.78
(99% correlation on parabolic binomial, rsquare=0.9929)
predicted
1904-1927 ca. 1262
2017-2039 ca. 1258
Therefore, a slight increase in rainfall is predicted for Wellington, NZ, at -40 latitude.
HenryP says:
June 21, 2014 at 2:31 pm
Henry, a suggestion for you.
Whenever I get a result in climate science with an rquare of 0.9999, I know I’ve screwed up somewhere. Literally. When I get that kind of result, I get very nervous. Real-world correlations are never that good, it means that I’ve made some kind of error somewhere along the line. And whether I can find the error immediately or not, I wouldn’t dream of publishing such results. Even if I couldn’t find the error, I would never trust it. Like they say, if it sounds too good to be true … it likely is.
w.
Thanks, Willis, for your reply.
You commented on my borrowing terms from the IPCC:
“Bill, the IPCC has done science in general a huge disservice by their attempts to convince people that e.g. a 90% CI is worth more than a
bucket of warm spit.
It isn’t.”
I acknowledge your comment about the IPCC and it’s (mis) use of these terms, and accept your (implied) rejection of any CI less than 95%.
But nevertheless, I saw a “signal” in your Figure 6, and further, thought I had data that indicated that the strength of the signal in the SST was dependent on the strength of the solar cycle.
Rather than, as you put it: “apparently real cycles bounce into and out of existence like the Cheshire Cat”
OK, perhaps I didn’t articulate that point very well, and you said:
“That makes no sense at all. Why should the fact that some cycles are stronger than others mean that the signal would be “completely diluted and hidden by noise’?”
Let me try again. (I will leave out the data this time because they format badly.)
I took the three cycles with highest SIDC Sunspot numbers (1957, 1979, 1989), folded the detrended SST data 7 years either side of the peaks and looked at the plot of the averages.
The plot looks sinusoidal, with a gentle trough followed by a gentle peak.
Peak to peak signal estimated at +/-0.085 degrees celcius.
The signal is not significant at the 95%CI.
I took three mid-strength cycles (1917, 1968, 2000), folded the detrended SST data 7 years either side of the peaks as before and looked at the plot of the averages.
The plot looks less sinusoidal. There is a sharp peak mid trough, but the following gentle peak is still noticeable. (I interpret this as partial corruption by noise)
Peak to peak signal estimated at +/-0.05 degrees celcius.
I took the three cycles with lowest SIDC Sunspot numbers (1883, 1893, 1905), folded the detrended SST data 7 years either side of the peaks and looked at the plot of the averages.
The plot looks nothing like sinusoidal. The signal is lost in the noise.
A peak to peak estimate appears to be meaningless. Assumed to be 0.
I draw two conclusions from this:
1. From the analysis of the highest SIDC Sunspot number cycles only:
High strength solar cycles may have an effect on SSTs but is not significant at the 95%CI.
2. From the entire analysis of three high, mid and low SIDC Sunspot number cycles:
The strength of the solar cycle may have an effect on the strength of the SST signal.
On its own merits, the first conclusion is not worthy of consideration, but is corroborated well by the second conclusion.
And when you say:
“Finally, when a signal is so “completely diluted and hidden by noise” that it is lost in the weeds … well, I call that no significant relationship between sunspots and sea surface temperature.”
This is only true for the SST signal during sunspot cycles with low counts.
I would instead conclude, Willis, that:
There is evidence suggesting that strong solar cycles have an effect on SST, corroborated by further evidence that the strength of the solar cycle influences the SST signal strength.
I close by noting that Nir Shaviv complained in the comments above that I hadn’t analyzed the sea level data. I said I’d be glad to analyze it, and I asked him for the names of the 24 stations that he had used. He’s never gotten back to me with the list of the stations, so I fear that he may not be all that interested in my analysis … a reluctance which I can certainly understand, given the problems I found in the part of his study that I investigated above.
Regards to all,
w.