Sunspots and Sea Surface Temperature

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

I thought I was done with sunspots … but as the well-known climate scientist Michael Corleone once remarked, “Just when I thought I was out … they pull me back in”.  In this case Marcel Crok, the well-known Dutch climate writer, asked me if I’d seen the paper from Nir Shaviv called “Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing”, available here. Dr. Shaviv’s paper claims that both the ocean heat content and the ocean sea surface temperature (SST) vary in step with the ~11 year solar cycle. Although it’s not clear what “we” means when he uses it, he says: thumb its the sun“We find that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations, thus implying the necessary existence of an amplification mechanism, though without pointing to which one.” Since the ocean heat content data is both spotty and incomplete, I looked to see if the much more extensive SST data actually showed signs of the claimed solar-related variation.

To start with, here’s what Shaviv2008 says about the treatment of the data:

Before deriving the global heat flux from the observed ocean heat content, it is worth while to study in more detail the different data sets we used, and in particular, to better understand their limitations. Since we wish to compare them to each other, we begin by creating comparable data sets, with the same resolution and time range. Thus, we down sample higher resolution data into one year bins and truncate all data sets to the range of 1955 to 2003.

I assume the 1955 start of their data is because the ocean heat content data starts in 1955. Their study uses the HadISST dataset, the “Ice and Sea Surface Temperature” data, so I went to the marvelous KNMI site and got that data to compare to the sunspot data. Here are the untruncated versions of the SIDC sunspot and the HadISST sea surface temperature data.

sidt sunspots and HadISST sea surface temperature 1870 2013Figure 1. Sunspot numbers (upper panel) and sea surface temperatures (lower panel).

So … is there a solar component to the SST data? Well, looking at Figure 1, for starters we can say that if there is a solar component to SST, it’s pretty small. How small? Well, for that we need the math. I often start with a cross-correlation. A cross-correlation looks not only at how well correlated two datasets might be. It also shows how well correlated the two datasets are with a lag between the two. Figure 2 shows the cross-correlation between the sunspots and the SST:

cross correlation sidc sunspots hadISST 1870 2013Figure 2. Cross-correlation, sunspots and sea surface temperatures. Note that they are not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.

So … I’m not seeing anything significant in the cross-correlation over full overlap of the two datasets, which is the period 1870-2013. However, they haven’t used the full dataset, only the part from 1955 to 2003. That’s only 49 years … and right then I start getting nervous. Remember, we’re looking for an 11-year cycle. So results from that particular half-century of data only represent three complete solar cycles, and that’s skinny … but in any case, here’s cross-correlation on the truncated datasets 1955-2003:

cross correlation sidc sunspots hadISST 1955 2003Figure 3. Cross-correlation, truncated sunspots and sea surface temperatures 1955-2003. Note that while they are larger than for the full dataset, they are still not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.

Well, I can see how if all you looked at was the shortened datasets you might believe that there is a correlation between SST and sunspots. Figure 3 at least shows a positive correlation with no lag, one which is almost statistically significant if you ignore autocorrelation.

But remember, in the cross-correlation of the complete dataset shown back in Figure 2, the no-lag correlation is … well … zero. The apparent correlation shown in the half-century dataset disappears entirely when we look at the full 140-year dataset.

This highlights a huge recurring problem with analyzing natural datasets and looking for regular cycles. Regular cycles which are apparently real appear, last for a half century or even a century, and then disappear for a century …

Now, in Shaviv2008, the author suggests a way around this conundrum, viz:

Another way of visualizing the results, is to fold the data over the 11-year solar cycle and average. This reduces the relative contribution of sources uncorrelated with the solar activity as they will tend to average out (whether they are real or noise).

In support of this claim, he shows the following figure:

Shaviv Figure 5Figure 4. This shows Figure 5 from the Shaviv2008 paper. Of interest to this post is the top panel, showing the ostensible variation in the averaged cycles.

Now, I’ve used this technique myself. However, if I were to do it, I wouldn’t do it the way he has. He has aligned the solar minimum at time t=0, and then averaged the data for the 11 years after that. If I were doing it, I think I’d align them at the peak, and then take the averages for say six years on either side of the peak.

But in any case, rather than do it my way, I figured I’d see if I could emulate his results. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues right away when I started to do the actual calculations. Here’s the first issue:

sidc sunspots hadISST 1955 2003Figure 5. The data used in Shaviv2008 to show the putative sunspot-SST relationship.

I’m sure you can see the problem. Because the dataset is so short (n = 49 years), there are only four solar minima—1964, 1976, 1986, and 1996. And since the truncated data ends in 2003, that means that we only have three complete solar cycles during the period.

This leads directly to a second problem, which is the size of the uncertainty of the results of the “folded” data. With only three full cycles to analyze, the uncertainty gets quite large. Here are the three folded datasets, along with the mean and the 95% confidence interval on the mean.

sst anomaly folded over solar cycle 1955-2003Figure 6. Sea surface temperatures from three full solar cycles, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008

Now, when I’m looking for a repetitive cycle, I look at the 95% confidence interval of the mean. If the 95%CI includes the zero line, it means the variation is not significant. The problem in Figure 6, of course, is the fact that there are only three cycles in the dataset. As a result, the 95%CI goes “from the floor to the ceiling”, as the saying goes, and the results are not significant in the slightest.

So why does the Shaviv2008 result shown in Figure 4 look so convincing? Well … it’s because he’s only showing one standard error as the uncertainty in his results, when what is relevant is the 95%CI. If he showed the 95%CI, it would be obvious that the results are not significant.

However, none of that matters. Why not? Well, because the claimed effect disappears when we use the full SST and sunspot datasets. Their common period goes from 1870 through 2013, so there are many more cycles to average. Figure 7 shows the same type of “folded” analysis, except this time for the full period 1870-2013:

full sst anomaly folded over solar cycle 1955-2003Figure 7. Sea surface temperatures from all solar cycles from 1870-2013, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008

Here, we see the same thing that was revealed by the cross-correlation. The apparent cycle that seemed to be present in the most recent half-century of the data, the apparent cycle that is shown in Shaviv2008, that cycle disappears entirely when we look at the full dataset. And despite having a much narrower 95%CI because we have more data, once again there is no statistically significant departure from zero. At no time do we see anything unexplainable or unusual at all

And so once again, I find that the claims of a connection between the sun and climate evaporate when they are examined closely.

Let me be clear about what I am saying and not saying here. I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the climate.

What I am saying is that I still haven’t found any convincing sign of the ~11-year sunspot cycle in any climate dataset, nor has anyone pointed out such a dataset. And without that, it’s very hard to believe that even smaller secular variations in solar strength can have a significant effect on the climate.

So, for what I hope will be the final time, let me put out the challenge once again. Where is the climate dataset that shows the ~11-year sunspot/magnetism/cosmic rays/solar wind cycle? Shaviv echoes many others when he claims that there is some unknown amplification mechanism that makes the effects “about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations” … however, I’m not seeing it. So where can we find this mystery ~11-year cycle?

Please use whatever kind of analysis you prefer to demonstrate the putative 11-year cycle—”folded” analysis as above, cross-correlation, wavelet analysis, whatever.

Regards,

w.

My Usual Request: If you disagree with someone, myself included, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. This prevents many flavors of misunderstanding, and lets us all see just what it is that you think is incorrect.

Subject: This post is about the quest for the 11-year solar cycle. It is not about your pet theory about 19.8 year Jupiter/Saturn synoptic cycles. If you wish to write about them, this is not the place. Take it to Tallbloke’s Talkshop, they enjoy discussing those kinds of cycles. Here, I’m looking for the 11-year sunspot cycles in weather data, so let me ask you kindly to restrict your comments to subjects involving those cycles.

Data and Code: I’ve put the sunspot and HadISST annual data online, along with the R computer code, in a single zipped folder called “Shaviv Folder.zip

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June 17, 2014 10:56 pm

but anyone who thinks that a 22-year lag in solar data is meaningful is a signal engineer
Yep.
Now explain the response at 3 years.
BTW for what its worth Motl agrees with you and Monckton does not.
http://motls.blogspot.com/2014/06/david-evans-notch-filter-theory-of.html
and I’m having a discussion with some friends (EEs) here:
http://classicalvalues.com/2014/06/super-nova-of-a-climate-paper/#comment-116030
If the Climate is totally insensitive to TSI then the response line should be flat. No notch. The claim is that the notch shows up in Fourier Transform as well as the OFT.
Dave/Jo claim to have found a mechanism to explain the notch. We shall see.
Motl says, “But it must be either something else than the TSI, or the effect must be such that all the wiggles shorter than 20 years or so must be universally suppressed.”
And then goes on to discount “something else than the TSI” while also discounting the response at 3 years.
I’m seeing this a LOT among the sceptics of the theory.
There is a hole in their thinking because they are wedded to “TSI does not influence temps”. Amusing.
In any case it is amusing to see the “no response to small changes” orthodoxy. Compare with Dalton, Maunder, Oort, and other minimums.
====
BTW Dave/Jo think it is something other than TSI but that has the same clock. Of all the “experts” commenting Monckton is the only one who has seen the whole show (a preprint of the 170 page paper). I give him more credence because the rest are commenting based on incomplete data.

June 17, 2014 11:17 pm

It is fun to see sceptics who are just as orthodox as the AGW crowd. Just about different (and sometimes the same) things.

June 18, 2014 12:04 am

“David Evans has provided no hypothesis, no observational data, and a “notch” that doesn’t mean what he thought it meant.”
Have you read the whole paper? How do you know that such will not be provided? Monckton has read the whole paper. He seems satisfied. You are basing your argument on “I haven’t read the whole thing but it seems to me”. I have read the hints. They seem to make a point. But I’m a little schizophrenic and can see patterns where others don’t when the data is sparse. Of course some times it is imaginary fill in the blanks. So you have that going for you. But I have Monckton.
And Monckton told you specifically to be patient – that it will make sense in due course. So I’d be careful. The internet is forever. OTOH I should be careful too. My mates say I’m notorious for jumping the gun. Recklessly.
Some fun eh?

Reply to  M Simon
June 18, 2014 9:19 am

@m simon
the mechanism I proposed is that a lower polar field strength, as in apparent now, see here,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/18/solar-update-june-2014-the-sun-is-still-slumping-along/
allows for more energetic particles to leave the sun.
These are caught by our atmosphere to form more ozone, (from oxygen), more peroroxides (from H-O) and more nitrogenous oxides (from nitrogen / oxygen)
or else we would die…..
In turn more ozone (as apparent from 1995), & more of the others, deflect more sunlight to space.
Hence we are cooling whilst the sun is actually brighter.
Let me know what you think of that?

June 18, 2014 12:10 am

I’ll respond to the rest of your points in a while. Right now I’m flagging and intend to take a nap.

June 18, 2014 3:22 am

You just made that up out of the whole cloth.
Well no. You haven’t read the paper.
So lets see. There is a magnetic cycle that is anti-phase to the sun-spot cycle.
And then there was the hint about albedo. Maybe the magnetic field affects the albedo. Maybe through cosmic rays. That would provide signal cancellation (the notch). That would be why it takes two cycles for the signal to show up. And imperfect cancellation might very well explain the hump at three years.
As to being crazy – well as an engineer it has helped me solve problems a LOT faster than other engineers. After all I moved up from bench technician to aerospace engineer sans degree of any kind. Not too shabby. My method is to see a pattern and see if I can find the causes. In other words I get a clue and look for causes. In this case I’ll just have to wait. .
So far the people who get it are EEs. The rest of you are more or less in the dark. I find that highly amusing. But I get Dave’s methods. Standard DSP/electronics stuff. And the notch gave him a clue. But his wife (Jo) solved the problem. I’m sure the uproar has made them closer.
BTW did you see this?
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/low-cost-fusion-project-steps-out-shadows-looks-money-n130661
I got a mention. So I’m not just an EE either. And let me just say that money is not a problem. They are looking so the article is not telling a lie. Maybe I can tell you the whole story some time down the road. The whole AGW scam will be coming apart on many fronts. The Jo/Dave thing is just one of them.
And one other thing. I’m an old usenet hand. Hard arguments and insults don’t move me. So fire away. Hunter S. Thompson once told me on usenet that he liked my writing. It is a fun life. I’m enjoying the hell out of it.
Maybe later when this all calms down we can collaborate on some interesting stuff. I have some ideas.
I look forward to pulling the rug out from under those communists we used to know.

June 18, 2014 3:38 am

I agree there is no notch filter. It is just an electronic analog of what is happening. But I got that from the get go. I understood implicitly (and probably didn’t make clear the “implicit”) that Dave was making an electronic analog of what is happening. BTW introducing an anti-phase signal is how filtering is done in the analog domain. So the “not a filter” IS a filter. If you were an EE you’d know it in your bones.
I’m particularly enjoying my interactions with the “toob” guy. That is the era I grew up in. Love solid state but I have a certain nostalgia for valves as our Brit cousins call them.
I don’t think I’m going to answer any of your other points. Letting this unfold further is probably the best way. And if you see this before my previous – it got eaten by the system. It will show up as soon as someone gets to it.

June 18, 2014 8:01 am

Bernie Hutchins says:
June 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm
Sorry if confusing. I was replying to 1sky1 re. Willis, so thought it would be obvious that I was suggesting that he pick one of the proffered studies.

Bernie Hutchins
June 18, 2014 9:22 am

sturgishooper said June 18, 2014 at 8:01 am June 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm:
“Sorry if confusing. I was replying to 1sky1 re. Willis, so thought it would be obvious that I was suggesting that he pick one of the proffered studies.”
Thanks – that is more clear.
It does seem to me that the very few papers actually listed here have been pretty well debunked (like tree rings from ONE TREE) and/or do not address the sea surface temperatures as specified.
What is needed however is not so much being specific about the few already listed (and “recycled”) but new lists which the commenter has actually read, analyzed, and gleaned. But you can’t really insist that someone be pinned down unless you have proper pins.
The link you gave at kidswincom was flashy but seemed to be a lightly annotated former slide show, and was very difficult to follow with no figures numbered or referenced, and a lot of undirected language. Must have been better with a presenter talking at length about a particular figure that was then simultaneously displayed right there on the screen. It wasn’t a proper paper (not that I care if it was peer reviewed or just peered at!). And then we see the author say “I have applied a trial and error least squares curve fitting technique”. Can’t be both trial-and-error and least-squares.

June 18, 2014 9:36 am

HenryP says:
June 18, 2014 at 9:19 am
David Evans has hinted at albedo changes. I’m inclined to go with that since it can have a large effect on temperature for small changes.
I do agree that particles from the sun (and cosmic rays) are likely involved.
But I’m open to new information. I just don’t have enough to evaluate your whole point.

Reply to  M Simon
June 18, 2014 9:48 am

@m simon
the evidence of increasing ozone can be easily verified.
Ozone has been declining since the early 1950ies
now increasing since 1995.
Recovery in the SH has been much more spectacular than NH
meaning that less heat will go in the oceans.
do you understand the principle of absorption
and re-radiation?
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2011/08/11/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-aug-2011/

Reply to  HenryP
June 18, 2014 11:07 am

HenryP says:
June 18, 2014 at 9:48 am
I don’t doubt that O3 is increasing. But my understanding is not comprehensive enough to determine if the change is significant with respect to climate.
Now if you ask me about this:
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/low-cost-fusion-project-steps-out-shadows-looks-money-n130661
I’m on firmer ground.

Reply to  M Simon
June 18, 2014 12:06 pm

I hope you come right there with actually getting that energy from nuclear fusion….
I have been known to take opposing views here [at WUWT] to those that think we need or even want energy from splitting atoms, for safety reasons.
Are you sure nuclear fusion is safe? Can you contain the process?
As far as I remember, during the course of my investigations, Trenberth is the only person to have noticed that ozone accounts for at least 20-25% of all energy being absorbed and re-radiated [50% back radiated to space] by the atmosphere. However, he never ever realised that same (increasing) energy of the UV-C * type that forms (more) ozone also makes (more) hydrogen peroxides and (more) nitrogenous oxides from its elements. Sadly, nobody is even monitoring the concentrations of these chemicals…..
[They call it now: Trenberth’s missing energy]
Namely [I suspect] that besides said ozone, the peroxides and other chemicals being formed also absorb and re-radiate energy back to space. So all together, a change in the concentration of all these chemicals might cause a slight change in energy coming into the oceans, mostly, the energy of the other UV types.
Hence, earth is cooling while the sun is “slumping” i.e. at its maximum brightness
(btw, am I the only person to have noticed that the sun is currenlty brighter? Cannot we simply measure that in Lux?)
*[my current understanding is that extreme UV, which is deadly to humans, is termed UV-C]

June 18, 2014 12:25 pm

Are you sure nuclear fusion is safe? Can you contain the process?
Nothing is safe. But if you turn off the switch on Polywell it shuts down.

June 18, 2014 12:43 pm

M Simon says
but if you turn off the switch on Polywell it shuts down.
Henry says
I like that. It sounds like switching off the gas (supply) if there is a fire.
But I don’t mind much using gas for energy because it supplies dung to the air for more greening and more crops. My latest update on my tables showed a perfect binomial curve for the decrease in minimum temperatures, 100 % correlation. No room for any “man-made” warming whatsoever.
All warming and all cooling is perfectly natural. Gas is good!!!

1sky1
June 18, 2014 6:50 pm

The baseless projections here are getting totally surreal. It is Willis who
puts words in my mouth by writing: “So he is claiming that there is no
significant effect in the present, and there is no significant effect with
a lag of one year or a two years or a five years or eleven years, but
despite that, he believes there is a significant warming effect which does
not appear until twenty-two years after the sunspot peak.”
Far from ever making any such claim, I was simply addressing the
behavior of the sample ccf at longer lags than those shown in Figures 2&3.
Such behavior shows much about the bandwidth of cross-correlated signal
components. Furthermore, in this particular case, we get values of 0.23,
0.27, 0.22 at lags of 0-2yrs and .21 and .19 at lags of 21-22yrs, when the
unreliable SST-index values prior to 1905 are disregarded. These are
statistically significant values by Willis’ OWN simplistic criterion!
But they do NOT necessarily indicate significant cross-spectral coherence,
which ensues from stable phase relationship. In turn, even strong coherence
is merely a necessary, but INSUFFICIENT condition for establishing a causal
connection. While it’s long been an open secret amongst professionals that
Hadley SST is far from scientifically dependable in such pursuits, the
cross-spectral phase shows that it DOES lag SSN by <1yr in the ~11yr
spectral band, albeit with only marginal coherence.
All the presumptions, projections and ad hominems constantly encountered
here can hardly hide incompetence. It's a waste of my time to keep
debunking at every turn the fundamental misconceptions of blog lions
who have scant clue of the meaning of the numbers they compute, yet fancy
themselves geophysical signal analysts.

farmerbraun
June 18, 2014 8:27 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
June 17, 2014 at 11:45 pm
“Teasing us with claims of future genius?”
Now why can’t I see that?
Willis , don’t tell me that you are not enjoying this.
And you don’t get anywhere near the caning here that I do 🙂
But that’s OK ‘cos I’m just a dairy farmer.

June 18, 2014 11:45 pm

1sky1,
I think Willis has ended the debate most effectively with Stop wasting your time.
I have taken that admonition to heart. See my: June 18, 2014 at 3:38 am

June 19, 2014 12:54 am

Most lately, Willis always is playing devil’s advocate,
but donot think that he does not notice what you say,
preparing to write his own paper

June 19, 2014 11:20 am

farmerbraun says
But that’s OK ‘cos I’m just a dairy farmer
henry says
pray, do tell at what latitude you live?
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2013/04/29/the-climate-is-changing/

farmerbraun
June 19, 2014 2:58 pm

“pray, do tell at what latitude you live?”
40.3550° S, 175.6117° E

1sky1
June 19, 2014 5:21 pm

sturgishooper says:
June 17, 2014 at 5:20 pm
Sorry that your comment was overlooked in the short time I can allot for
blog activity.
Instead of delving into studies of proxy data etc. claiming a physical
connection with SSNs–which involve other issues–I have chosen to focus on
the purely METHODOLOGICAL mistakes painfully obvious in Willis’ inept
dismissal of the indications provided by the sample ccf with Hadley SST.
Having done a thorough analysis some years ago of the relationship between
sunspots and a more reliable marine temperature data set (not in the public
domain), I had a pretty good idea what to expect. That exhibited a
significantly different sample ccf than the highly inconsistent results he
shows in Figures 2&3. More to the point, it showed much stronger coherence
near ~11yr periods!
Indeed, Willis continues to evade showing his ccf for longer lags for fear
of being hung by his own petard. As I showed yesterday by posting some ccf
values for Hadley SSTs in the interval 1905-2013, they are significant even
by his criterion. Pathologically, he resorts to the trick of hiding that sample ccf behind this barrage: “You give us nothing. No graphs, no analyses, no code, no datasets, no worked examples, no demonstration of how to do it right so that we might actually learn something … “

Reply to  1sky1
June 19, 2014 6:13 pm

1sky1 says:
June 19, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Can you share the data set not in the public domain? Maybe Willis wouldn’t dismiss your comments with such prejudice if you could.
Pardon the pedantry, but it’s “hoist” by his own petard, not “hung”. A petard was a black power charge used to breach fortifications by blowing up gates or walls, dating from the 16th century.

1sky1
June 19, 2014 5:23 pm

M. Simon:
I know full well why Willis would like to end this debate. See my comment above.