Overpopulation: The Fallacy Behind The Fallacy Of Global Warming

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Guest essay by Dr. Tim Ball

Global Warming was just one issue The Club of Rome (TCOR) targeted in its campaign to reduce world population. In 1993 the Club’s co-founder, Alexander King with Bertrand Schneider wrote The First Global Revolution stating,

“The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself.”

They believe all these problems are created by humans but exacerbated by a growing population using technology. Changed attitudes and behavior basically means what it has meant from the time Thomas Malthus raised the idea the world was overpopulated. He believed charity and laws to help the poor were a major cause of the problem and it was necessary to reduce population through rules and regulations. TCOR ideas all ended up in the political activities of the Rio 1992 conference organized by Maurice Strong (a TCOR member) under the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).

The assumptions and objectives became the main structure of Agenda 21, the master plan for the 21st Century. The global warming threat was confronted at Rio through the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and creation of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). It was structured to predetermine scientific proof that human CO2 was one contribution of the common enemy.

The IPCC was very successful. Despite all the revelations about corrupted science and their failed predictions (projections) CO2 remains central to global attention about energy and environment. For example, several websites, many provided by government, list CO2 output levels for new and used cars. Automobile companies work to build cars with lower CO2 output and, if for no other reason than to appear green, use it in advertising. The automotive industry, which has the scientists to know better, collectively surrenders to eco-bullying about CO2. They are not alone. They get away with it because they pass on the unnecessary costs to a befuddled “trying to do the right thing” population.

TCOR applied Thomas Malthus’s claim of a race to exhaustion of food to all resources. Both Malthus and COR believe limiting population was mandatory. Darwin took a copy of Malthus’s Essay on Population with him and remarked on its influence on his evolutionary theory in his Beagle journal in September 1838. The seeds of distortion about overpopulation were sown in Darwin’s acceptance of Malthus’s claims.

Paul Johnson’s biography of Charles Darwin comments on the contradiction between Darwin’s scientific methods and his acceptance of their omission in Malthus.

Malthuss aim was to discourage charity and reform the existing poor laws, which, he argued, encourage the destitute to breed and so aggravated the problem. That was not Darwins concern. What struck him was the contrast between geometrical progression (breeding) and arithmetical progression (food supplies). Not being a mathematician he did not check the reasoning and accuracy behind Malthus’s law in fact, Malthus’s law was nonsense. He did not prove it. He stated it. What strikes one reading Malthus is the lack of hard evidence throughout. Why did this not strike Darwin? A mystery. Malthuss only proof was the population expansion of the United States.

There was no point at which Malthuss geometrical/arithmetical rule could be made to square with the known facts. And he had no reason whatsoever to extrapolate from the high American rates to give a doubling effect every 25 years everywhere and in perpetuity.

He swallowed Malthusianism because it fitted his emotional need, he did not apply the tests and deploy the skepticism that a scientist should. It was a rare lapse from the discipline of his profession. But it was an important one.

Darwin’s promotion of Malthus undoubtedly gave the ideas credibility they didn’t deserve. Since then the Malthusian claim has dominated science, social science and latterly environmentalism. Even now many who accept the falsity of global warming due to humans continue to believe overpopulation is a real problem.

Overpopulation was central in all TCOR’s activities. Three books were important to their message, Paul Ehrlich’s The Population Bomb (1968) and Ecoscience: Population, Resources and Environment (1977) co-authored with John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, and Meadows et al., Limits to Growth, published in 1972 that anticipated the IPCC approach of computer model predictions (projections). The latter wrote

If the present growth trends in world population, industrialization, pollution, food production, and resource depletion continue unchanged, the limits to growth on this planet will be reached sometime within the next one hundred years.

Here is what the TCOR web site says about the book.

They created a computing model which took into account the relations between various global developments and produced computer simulations for alternative scenarios. Part of the modelling were different amounts of possibly available resources, different levels of agricultural productivity, birth control or environmental protection.

They estimated the current amount of a resource, determined the rate of consumption, and added an expanding demand because of increasing industrialization and population growth to determine, with simple linear trend analysis, that the world was doomed.

Economist Julian Simon challenged TCOR and Ehrlich’s assumptions.

In response to Ehrlich’s published claim that “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000” – a proposition Simon regarded as too silly to bother with – Simon countered with “a public offer to stake US$10,000 … on my belief that the cost of non-government-controlled raw materials (including grain and oil) will not rise in the long run.

Simon proposed,

You could name your own terms: select any raw material you wanted – copper, tin, whatever – and select any date in the future, “any date more than a year away,” and Simon would bet that the commodity’s price on that date would be lower than what it was at the time of the wager.

John Holdren selected the materials and the time. Simon won the bet.

Global warming used the idea that CO2 would increase to harmful levels because of increasing industrialization and expanding populations. The political manipulation of climate science was linked to development and population control in various ways. Here are comments from a PBS interview with Senator Tim Wirth in response to the question, What was it in the late 80s, do you think, that made the issue [of global warming] take off? He replied,

I think a number of things happened in the late 1980s. First of all, there were the [NASA scientist Jim] Hansen hearings [in 1988]. … We had introduced a major piece of legislation. Amazingly enough, it was an 18-part climate change bill; it had population in it, conservation, and it had nuclear in it. It had everything that we could think of that was related to climate change. … And so we had this set of hearings, and Jim Hansen was the star witness.

Wikipedia says about Wirth,

In the State Department, he worked with Vice President Al Gore on global environmental and population issues, supporting the administration’s views on global warming. A supporter of the proposed Kyoto Protocol Wirth announced the U.S.’s commitment to legally binding limits on greenhouse gas emissions.

Gore chaired the 1988 “Hansen” Senate Hearing and was central to the promotion of population as basic to all other problems. He led the US delegation to the September 1994 International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo Egypt.

That conference emerged from Rio 1992 where they linked population to all other supposed problems.

Explicitly integrating population into economic and development strategies will both speed up the pace of sustainable development and poverty alleviation and contribute to the achievement of population objectives and an improved quality of life of the population.

This theme was central to Rio+20 held in June 2012 and designed to re-emphasize Rio 1992.

The Numbers

The world is not overpopulated. That fallacy is perpetuated in all environmental research, policy and planning including global warming and latterly climate change. So what are the facts about world population?

The US Census Bureau provides a running estimate of world population. It was 6,994,551,619 on February 15, 2012. On October 30, 2011 the UN claimed it passed 7 billion; the difference is 5,448,381. This is more than the population of 129 countries of the 242 listed by Wikipedia. It confirms most statistics are crude estimates, especially those of the UN who rely on individual member countries, yet no accurate census exists for any of them

Population density is a more meaningful measure. Most people are concentrated in coastal flood plains and deltas, which are about 5 percent of the land. Compare Canada, the second largest country in the world with approximately 35.3 million residents estimated in 2013 with California where an estimated 37.3 million people lived in 2010. Some illustrate the insignificance of the density issue by putting everyone in a known region. For example, Texas at 7,438,152,268,800 square feet divided by the 2012 world population 6,994,551,619 yields 1063.4 square feet per person. Fitting all the people in an area is different from them being able to live there. Most of the world is unoccupied by humans.

Population geographers separate ecumene, the inhabited area, from non-ecumene the uninhabited areas. The distribution of each changes over time because of technology, communications and food production capacity. Many of these changes deal with climate controls. Use of fire and clothing allowed survival in colder regions, while irrigation offset droughts and allowed settlement in arid regions. Modern environmentalists would likely oppose all of these touted evolutionary advances.

Ironically The Fallacious Problem is The Solution

It all sounds too familiar in the exploitation of science for a political and personal agenda. But there is an even bigger tragedy because the development the TCOR and IPCC condemn is actually the solution.

All of the population predictions Ehrlich and others made were wrong, but more important and damning was they ignored another pattern that was identified in 1929 and developed over the same period as the Mathusian claims. It is known as the Demographic Transition.

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It shows and statistics confirm, population declines as nations industrialize and the economy grows. It is so dramatic in developed countries that the population pyramid results in insufficient young people to support the massively expensive social programs for the elderly. Some countries offset this with migration, but they are simply creating other problems. Countries that don’t allow or severely limit migration such as Japan face completely different problems. Some countries offer incentives for having more than two children, such as the announcement by Vladimir Putin in Russia. China took draconian, inhuman, steps by limiting families to one child. The irony, although there is nothing funny about it, is they are now the largest producer of CO2 and their economy booms. If they had simply studied the demographic transition and let things take a normal course the tragedies already incurred and yet to unfold could have been avoided.

The world is not overpopulated. Malthus began the idea suggesting the population would outgrow the food supply. Currently food production is believed sufficient to feed 25 billion people and growing. The issue is that in the developing world some 60 percent of production never makes it to the table. Developed nations cut this figure to 30 percent primarily through refrigeration. In their blind zeal those who brought you the IPCC fiasco cut their teeth on the technological solution to this problem – better and cheaper refrigeration. The CFC/ ozone issue was artificially created to ban CFCs and introduce global control through the Montreal Protocol. It, like the Kyoto Protocol was a massive, expensive, unnecessary solution to a non-existent problem.

TCOR and later UNEP’s Agenda 21 adopted and expanded the Malthusian idea of overpopulation to all resources making it the central tenet of all their politics and policies. The IPCC was set up to assign the blame of global warming and latterly climate change on human produced CO2 from an industrialized expanding population. They both developed from false assumptions, used manipulated data and science, which they combined into computer models whose projections were, not surprisingly, wrong. The result is the fallacy of global warming due to human CO2 is a subset built on the fallacy of overpopulation.

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Alan Robertson
January 7, 2014 7:05 am

Chris says:
January 7, 2014 at 6:56 am
I would suggest that you perhaps review you theory on the government here as it is at odds with what actually happens in reality.
_____________________________
You failed to address the fact that 30,000 people were reported to have died last winter in the UK because they couldn’t afford to heat their homes. Gov’t instituted “Green” taxes and policies designed to curb CO2 emissions drove the cost of fuel so high that people died. Are you ok with that?

Chris
January 7, 2014 7:10 am

Richards Courtney said:
But this thread is about whether in reality there is problem of overpopulation of the world. The issue under discussion is not what you (or anyone else) “believes” except in so far as people express “beliefs” about overpopulation which are plain wrong.
I am sorry, but I do think the world is overpopulated. Why is it not about what I believe. Our population has exploded in 60 years. We have more people claiming than are paying into the system. People are living longer and there are fewer jobs.
Now, what we can do and what we should do are 2 completely different things. For example we could all become vegetarians and get rid of livestock. This would provide land to allow an increase in population. It doesn’t mean we can support that population financially with affordable housing or jobs, or the increased energy demand when there is already a shortfall. Why should we have a larger population when we now have 10 percent of children in the UK living in poverty. And it is only going to get worse as less people pay in to those claiming. It’s basic affordability.

Chris
January 7, 2014 7:17 am

Alan Robertson said
I would suggest that you perhaps review you theory on the government here as it is at odds with what actually happens in reality.
_____________________________
You failed to address the fact that 30,000 people were reported to have died last winter in the UK because they couldn’t afford to heat their homes. Gov’t instituted “Green” taxes and policies designed to curb CO2 emissions drove the cost of fuel so high that people died. Are you ok with that?
No I am not ok with it. I agree this is an example where we are being hit in the pocket by green taxes. Go read my posts on Nuccitelli’s blog in the Guardian and see what I think of green taxes. You made a generalised comment about how the government is effectively killing people off. In some respects yes, but in a lot of other respects no. It is not quite as straightforward as you say. I think the threat of Man made climate change is the biggest con this world has ever faced. So please don’t be quite so quick to judge me here.

richardscourtney
January 7, 2014 7:27 am

Chris:
I am replying to your post at January 7, 2014 at 7:10 am.
You seem to be very confused. You say

I am sorry, but I do think the world is overpopulated.

Then you talk about UK population.
The world need not be overpopulated merely because one country is overpopulated.
The world is a big place and humans occupy a small part of the fifth of the world which is not covered by water, and there are not many of us. If the entire human population of the world were to move to the USA then the resulting population density of the USA would be less than the population density which now exists in the Netherlands.
And the UK is NOT overpopulated. The UK has population density less than the Netherlands.
You seem to be thinking that local issues which concern you are a global problem. Please read the responses to you from Alan Robertson: they may remove some of your confusion of local perception with global reality.
And I again ask you to read and consider my argument in my post at
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/05/overpopulation-the-fallacy-behind-the-fallacy-of-global-warming/#comment-1526318
If you were to tell me of any fault in that argument then I would be grateful.
Richard

Chris
January 7, 2014 7:42 am

M Courtney says:
“However, I propose that economic factors have NO influence on the birth-rate. Poverty increases the infant mortality rate but has NO influence on the birth-rate.”
This is simply not true. People who live in 3rd world countries have many children because the mortality rates are so high. As people from the 3rd world integrate with people from the western world it is proven that the birth rate falls partly due to the better economic conditions that ensure better longevity, but also due to education in birth control. And this is a good place to start. Teach kids in school to be responsible and have a good grasp of the economics that you don’t believe make a difference. I believe they do.
M Courtney says:
“My justification for this extreme position is that the economic value of a baby is not rational. To a mother or a father the life of the child is worth far more than it is to anyone else. People do give up their holidays, ambitions even their dreams for the benefit of their children.”
There is much I do agree with here. And here lies the inherent problem with humans. We act quite selfishly when it comes to this. To act selflessly and consider the medium or long term future of our planet is practically impossible. We all live for now. Much like we all want to live to a good age and have the same standard of living or better than the next person. It is usually about this time that most species reach a tipping point and it reduces its numbers through greed, disease, war or annihilation. I would probably sleep better if I simply agreed that we can support 10 billion people and provide food for them. The reality I fear is something different to that. I am allowed to say that because defining overpopulation is both objective and subjective and happens also to be intangible in the sense that it cannot be touched. Co2 is tangible – we can control that, or attempt to, which is probably why the government bang on about it instead of discussing that conversation stopper, population. I don’t have the answers and I would never propose that we do this or do that in response. I firmly believe however that we cannot support a larger population.

Chris
January 7, 2014 7:55 am

Richards Courtney said:
“The world need not be overpopulated merely because one country is overpopulated.
The world is a big place and humans occupy a small part of the fifth of the world which is not covered by water, and there are not many of us. If the entire human population of the world were to move to the USA then the resulting population density of the USA would be less than the population density which now exists in the Netherlands.
And the UK is NOT overpopulated. The UK has population density less than the Netherlands.
You seem to be thinking that local issues which concern you are a global problem. Please read the responses to you from Alan Robertson: they may remove some of your confusion of local perception with global reality.
And I again ask you to read and consider my argument in my post at
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/05/overpopulation-the-fallacy-behind-the-fallacy-of-global-warming/#comment-1526318
If you were to tell me of any fault in that argument then I would be grateful.”
I think perhaps we are talking 2 different purposes here. You seem to be talking about the density of a given population in a certain area and I think I am talking about this from a perspective of affordability. The reference to 10 percent of kids being in poverty in the UK is one of economics, not space. You made reference to the US being able to support a bigger population. What this does not consider is the infrastructure to allow that. As was stated most people either live on the coast or in places where climate allows for sustainability of the population that lives there. Canada is also very sparsely populated. It rather begs the question why? doesn’t it. I understand why Australia is like it is because many places are not habitable.
Your view is rather simplistic because I could agree that we could fit 20 billion people on the planet. I do not believe we could provide for them however. There is a larger and larger shortfall occurring between the money being paid in to the money being claimed.

January 7, 2014 8:05 am

Chris says at January 7, 2014 at 7:42 am… Well my post was deliberately provocative to economic theorists so it was not likely to be persuasive.
However, the take home point was that economics does not affect the choice to have a family. And the nature of the ties that hold that family together is not economic but social and psychological.
Accidents do happen but some means of family planning (even the withdrawal method) is available everywhere, regardless of wealth. It is the social and emotional factors that determine the size of family.
Are social factors linked to economic factors? Yes. But the social superstructure of a family is not produced by the main economic activity – that occurs on a wider, collective scale. The family is built on social and emotional factors.
Also, the idea that sacrificing your children and your closest responsibilities for the greater good is unselfish – that assumes a level of knowledge that is beyond the reach of most mortals.

Alan Robertson
January 7, 2014 8:41 am

Chris says:
January 7, 2014 at 7:17 am
“You made a generalised comment about how the government is effectively killing people off. In some respects yes… I think the threat of Man made climate change is the biggest con this world has ever faced. So please don’t be quite so quick to judge me here.”
Chris,
By your belief that the world is overpopulated, you have aligned your thinking with and are therefore tacitly, at least, helping to support the implementation of policies which are designed to eliminate much of the world’s human population.
Here are quotes by some of those with whom you agree and your thinking resonates, like a guitar string, in sympathy with their thinking:
————
My three goals would be to reduce human population to about 100 million worldwide, destroy the industrial infrastructure and see wilderness, with its full complement of species, returning throughout the world.”
David Foreman,
co-founder of Earth First!
”A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.”
Ted Turner,
Founder of CNN and major UN donor
”The prospect of cheap fusion energy is the worst thing that could happen to the planet.”
Jeremy Rifkin,
Greenhouse Crisis Foundation
”Giving society cheap, abundant energy would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun.”
Paul Ehrlich,
Professor of Population Studies,
Author: “Population Bomb”, “Ecoscience”
“The data doesn’t matter. We’re not basing our recommendations
on the data. We’re basing them on the climate models.”
– Prof. Chris Folland,
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research
“The models are convenient fictions
that provide something very useful.”
– Dr David Frame,
climate modeler, Oxford University
”We need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination… So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts… Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.”
Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
Lead author of many IPCC reports
”Unless we announce disasters no one will listen.”
Sir John Houghton,
First chairman of the IPCC
”It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.”
Paul Watson,
Co-founder of Greenpeace
”Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing.”
David Brower,
First Executive Director of the Sierra Club
”We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.”
Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation
”No matter if the science of global warming is all phony… climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment
”The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe.”
Emeritus Professor Daniel Botkin
”Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”
Maurice Strong,
Founder of the UN Environmental Program
”A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-Development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation.”
Paul Ehrlich,
Professor of Population Studies,
Author: “Population Bomb”, “Ecoscience”
”If I were reincarnated I would wish to return to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”
Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh,
husband of Queen Elizabeth II,
Patron of the Patron of the World Wildlife Foundation
”The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States. We can’t let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization we have in the US. We have to stop these third World countries right where they are.”
Michael Oppenheimer
Environmental Defense Fund
”Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty, reduced resource consumption and set levels of mortality control.”
Professor Maurice King
”Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class – involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning, and suburban housing – are not sustainable.”
Maurice Strong,
Rio Earth Summit
”Complex technology of any sort is an assault on the human dignity. It would be little short of disastrous for us to discover a source of clean, cheap, abundant energy, because of what we might do with it.”
Amory Lovins,
Rocky Mountain Institute
”I suspect that eradicating small pox was wrong. it played an important part in balancing ecosystems.”
John Davis,
Editor of Earth First! Journal
“…the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.” ~ David Rockefeller, June, 1991, Bilderberg Conference, Baden, Germany link
“We are on the verge of a global transformation.
All we need is the right major crisis…”
– David Rockefeller,
Club of Rome executive member
“I believe it is appropriate to have an ‘over-representation’ of the facts
on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience.”
-Al Gore,
Climate Change activist
“The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and
spiritual challenge to all of humanity. It is also our greatest
opportunity to lift Global Consciousness to a higher level.”
-Al Gore,
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech
”The big threat to the planet is people: there are too many, doing too well economically and burning too much oil.”
Sir James Lovelock,
BBC Interview
“We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place
for capitalists and their projects. We must reclaim the roads and
plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams,
free shackled rivers and return to wilderness
millions of acres of presently settled land.”
– David Foreman,
co-founder of Earth First!

Vince Causey
January 7, 2014 8:49 am

Chris,
“There is a larger and larger shortfall occurring between the money being paid in to the money being claimed.”
You have said this more than once. I don’t understand what you mean by it or what it has to say about global population levels. Please explain.

Chris
January 7, 2014 8:57 am

M Courtney
Chris says at January 7, 2014 at 7:42 am… Well my post was deliberately provocative to economic theorists so it was not likely to be persuasive.
I said nothing of the sort. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Growl!!!

JP
January 7, 2014 9:04 am


“I am sorry, but I do think the world is overpopulated. Why is it not about what I believe. Our population has exploded in 60 years. We have more people claiming than are paying into the system. People are living longer and there are fewer jobs. ”
But, look at North Africa. Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Algeria all have seen their birth rates plunge (most are now below replacement levels) despite remaining in poverty. Indonesia has made modest economic progress, but it’s birthrate has been below replacement levels for a decade or more. The same can be said for Central and South America. None of these nations can be considered well off, but their birth rates haven’t fallen; they’ve fallen through the floor. One group is primarily Islam; the other Catholic. All are below the poverty level.

Chris
January 7, 2014 9:11 am

Alan Robertson said:
Chris,
By your belief that the world is overpopulated, you have aligned your thinking with and are therefore tacitly, at least, helping to support the implementation of policies which are designed to eliminate much of the world’s human population.
I give no such support to the views of the people you quote at all. If you say this, then by association you must also assume that every person who believes the world is over populated also aligns their view to the people you quote. Holding a view or opinion on a situation is a wholly different thing to suggesting what that same person would or should do based on that belief. I do not appreciate people taking my words out of context, misquoting me and at worst cherry picking what I say and putting their own unique spin on it. I would not put words in your mouth, so please don’t put words in mine. I simply stated that I believe the planet is overpopulated, and this is supported by our current inability to provide a good standard of living for the population we have. I do not for a second suggest that we start killing people! It really annoys me when people do this.

Chris
January 7, 2014 9:22 am

@JP
It may well be the case that population is falling in these places, but globally the level is rising dramatically. Surely that is the point here. If that were not the case we would not be talking about whether or not we can support a 10 billion population. And many people in this thread support that view. So local variations is not really the issue here.
As to your reference to Catholics. They actually encourage large families. They also have a no contraception, no abortion and no suicide policy. That’s one way to increase the size of the population I suppose.

Chris
January 7, 2014 9:30 am

Vince Causey says:
January 7, 2014 at 8:49 am
Chris,
“There is a larger and larger shortfall occurring between the money being paid in to the money being claimed.”
You have said this more than once. I don’t understand what you mean by it or what it has to say about global population levels. Please explain.
I am not sure what there is to explain here. Governments generate money on the basis that people pay taxes. As the population gets older and lives longer there is less money in the pot because people claim pensions for a longer time. Sooner or later no-one will be able to afford to retire. As the population gets older there is less money in the pot to support the older generation. Therefore there is a shortfall and this deficit causes people to become poorer and have a lower standard of living. How low does the standard of living need to be, or how diluted does wealth have to become before it becomes unaffordable to have an ever growing population ?

January 7, 2014 9:56 am

@R. de Haan says:
January 6, 2014 at 2:32 pm
“No doubt about the capability to feed all people in the world.
The food is there, no doubt about it…”
IF the food is “there”, it is clearly not where it’s needed. And more importantly, as I emphasized, it may not be ANYWHERE if any one of several foreseeable calamities occurs.
“If there is a problem with food it is a distribution problem … It is almost never a production problem.”
Yes, and airplanes almost never crash.
“In fact we have now acquired the capability to produce sufficient fresh food locally enough to feed an entire city using a stocked “growth building”. …”
Dream on…Or are you Bill Gates posting incognito?
“You must study our history.
We have made our food distribution system redundant a long time ago.
We did so during the Little Ice Age when the fleets from the Brits and the Dutch couldn’t leave their ports because of the frozen harbors and no trade was undertaken.”
REALLY! You know of an existing infrastructure for transporting food and fuel that doesn’t rely on oil fueled bulk ocean transport and trucks and trains, running on a fragile network of roads and bridges through flood plains, mountain passes and earthquake zones? Do tell!
“… we have developed the technique to conserve food for years, we call it canned or dried food and every sane family has a stockpile of canned or dried food at home already and if they haven’t a stockpile it is their own fault. People should carry responsibility for their own situation.”
I imagine you’ll feel very smug and self-righteous when some of these starving “insane” families come to slit your throat for your stockpile of food. Or do your “sane families” all have a company of well armed and disciplined soldiers at their command too?
“Most disasters have a local effect and if we have a “global disaster”, well…. that’s a shame than but not something to worry if i were you because it is only a minute risk compared to crossing a busy street or even sitting in a chair doing nothing.”
The Dinosaurs must find that thought very comforting.
“You clearly have watched too many fear mongering disaster movies and probably need mental care, especially if I read your last remark:
“The best hope for humanity, realistically, is that it breaks sooner, rather than later, perhaps leaving us some amount of viable culture and infrastructure and some remnants of unpolluted soil and water for continued existence”.
This is a stupid remark and you break the bank with this.
You clearly support the claim that the biggest threat of mankind and the planet is humanity and that makes you “realistically” an idiot and I say this in a polite manner.”
Thanks for being so polite. But your reasoning is extremely faulty.
You somehow manage to misunderstand my clear message that our civilization is at extreme risk of collapse due to entirely natural and previously occurring phenomena – plagues, volcanism, earthquakes, solar storms, asteroid strikes, ice age, etc.. And that it is our lack of localized resources for survival, especially in the areas of medicine, fuel, food, and water that gives these threats the capability to roll back our progress of the past thousand years or more and condemn the remnants of our species to a savage existence among the toxic wastes of our civilization without the tools to navigate them.
I’d like to think that YOU are the one in need of mental care, but I’m afraid that your condition is generally considered “normal”, and this is precisely how I arrived at my “realistic” best hope for humanity.

Jimbo
January 7, 2014 10:28 am

otropogo says:
January 6, 2014 at 12:19 pm
Dr. Ball’s article, and many of the comments made on it, remind me of the arguments about the number of angels who can occupy the head of a needle. I’d like to remind them of the parable of the seven fat cows and the seven thin cows.
Even IF we currently have the capacity (although this has yet to be demonstrated) to adequately feed 7 billion people (and their work animals and pets) , the critical question for the survival and progress of humanity, which Dr. Ball fails to address, is how much reserve supply of food, and fuel for transport, heating, and cooking do we have, and what redundancy is there in our system of distribution of these essentials for life?

We will never run out of usable energy. We have vast methane hydrate deposits in the world’s oceans. Then there is nuclear power.

BBC – 12 March 2013
Japan extracts gas from methane hydrate in world first
Japan says it has successfully extracted natural gas from frozen methane hydrate off its central coast, in a world first.
Methane hydrates, or clathrates, are a type of frozen “cage” of molecules of methane and water.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21752441

10 Innovative Energy Sources To Help Break Our Fossil Fuel Addiction
http://www.businessinsider.com/10-energy-sources-that-will-keep-the-world-from-melting-down-2012-1?op=1
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/05/five-innovative-technologies-that-bring-energy-to-the-developing-world/

January 7, 2014 10:33 am

Dr. Strangelove says:
January 6, 2014 at 6:01 pm

“Even IF we currently have the capacity (although this has yet to be demonstrated) to adequately feed 7 billion people (and their work animals and pets) ”
This is obviously demonstrated fact. World food production is 3,000 kcal/day per capita. More than enough food to make every one on earth obese. Recommended daily diet is only 2,000 kcal. We waste at least 30% of food production and cows alone eat more grains than humans.”
a) “adequate” nourishment cannot be calculated in calories
b) having enough food (even with sufficient nutrients) in storage somewhere does not constitute nourishment. The food needs to be in the consumer’s stomach
c) the food that is “wasted” on livestock (or biofuel) is not available to the hungry, what is your point?
“Grains are stored for six months since they are usually harvested twice a year. People don’t stop eating grains and wait for the next harvest season. Oil refineries store at least one month supply of fuel. They don’t store more because it’s costly to keep large inventory.”
And you find this reassuring?
“We can easily store more grains and fuel. All we need is bigger warehouse and tanks.”
This is like the Captain of the Titanic dismissing the risk of being sunk by an iceberg by saying “we can always build an even bigger ship”.
“Natural disasters will disrupt supply of grains and fuel regardless of world population size. False argument.”
Wrong! The size of the populations, and especially their concentration in megacities hugely exacerbates the effect of the disruption and makes the re-establishment of government impossible before a huge die-off caused by lack of food, medicine, clean water, and/or heating fuel. The location of the reins of tools of power in these same urban areas will probably mean that, even if some form of government can be re-established, much of the infrastructure and technology will be lost.
“Inventories of food and fuel depend on consumption rate. Small populations have small inventories. If you want large inventories, just build large warehouses. No need to decrease population.”
Unfortunately, I don’t have the financial resources of a Bill Gates or a Warren Buffet. But even they wouldn’t have the means to create warehouses around the world that would provide even six months’ supply of nourishment (let alone heating fuel) to everyone without reliance on the current distribution system (which you have completely failed to address).
As far as I can see, your argument (and that of R. de Haan above) essentially rounds out to “don’t worry, be happy”.
And good luck with that…

John Whitman
January 7, 2014 10:34 am

The Malthusian premises:
#1. The Earth’s population is ‘X’.
#2. It is changing d’X’/dt.
#3. The planet Earth, over the period of human history, had a virtually fixed number of atoms of each of the naturally occurring elements. [this may possibly change very slightly in the relatively near future with space mined minerals imported to Earth and / or human colonization off Earth. And of course fissioning / fusion machines alter the number of some elements]
4. Normal man’s natural capability as a means of living quo man is equivalent to all other earth animal’s capabilities. What happens to them in nature is what will happen to men if man is left unrestricted to use his natural capability.
5. From now on into the future it is a Zero Sum situation in the area of ‘resources’/capita and ‘wealth’/capita. Where Zero Sum situation is that with any increase in population there must be a decrease in resources/capita and wealth/capita. And a Zero Sum situation is also that with a decrease in population there must be a increase in resources/capita and wealth/capita.
Conclusion of Malthusians: Doom unless population is restricted. We are already overpopulated in the sense of having now unnecessarily reduced resources/capita and wealth/capita.
False Malthusian premises are #4 & #5
Therefore falsifying the Mathusian Conclusion
John

Alan Robertson
January 7, 2014 10:36 am

Chris says:
January 7, 2014 at 9:11 am
Alan Robertson said:
Chris,
By your belief that the world is overpopulated, you have aligned your thinking with and are therefore tacitly, at least, helping to support the implementation of policies which are designed to eliminate much of the world’s human population.
——————————-
“I give no such support to the views of the people you quote at all. ”
________________________
Everyone I’ve met who hold similar views about overpopulation, when confronted with the ultimate end- game reality of their belief system, say “I give no such support to the views of the people you quote at all.” And yet, policies exist in your country which kill your countrymen for political purpose, policies camouflaged in “too many people, save the planet” rhetoric, concealing their elitist “reduce the population” roots.
Chris says: “It really annoys me when people do this.”
I do hope that your annoyance has prompted you to work to end the belief system promulgated by those who rule and with which they are putting your countrymen to death.

Gail Combs
January 7, 2014 11:00 am

richardscourtney says: January 7, 2014 at 6:21 am
….It is an empirical fact that the birthrate falls to below replenishment levels in countries with sufficient affluence for people to not need families sufficiently large as to be ‘insurance’ against times of illness and old age….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your are missing another point. In a rural agrarian society kids are free labor. For example my EX was driving a tractor at age five. In other parts of the world they weed, plant and tend animals. I saw a ~six year old girl tending cows in the Great Pyrenees in France for example.
Also kids can be sold. Tens of thousands of unwanted Swiss children were sold in auctions or given away as cheap labour until the 1950s, according to a shocking television documentary which has forced the country to confront a dark chapter of its recent past. and it is still going on today. Southwest Florida – children sold as sex slaves

…One recently-rescued victim, Zaleski said, was plucked right out of an upscale Gateway neighborhood…
Lee County’s problem isn’t unusual for Florida. In fact, it’s the number two state for human trafficking and it’s the fastest growing crime in the world. Sadly, 50-percent of victims worldwide are children.
“As long as there’s a demand out there, you’re going to be paid well. And unfortunately, the price was high enough to make it acceptable for my birth mother….

When you are living in grinding poverty or under drug addiction you will sell your children, or someone elses. Human Trafficking: Modern Day Slavery Affecting 30 Million Women and Children

…there are more people being enslaved today than at any other time in human history. There are two distinct facets of this modern slave trade: one concerns victims who are sold, bought and used as sex slaves, the other one pertains to people exploited for labor purpose…

Richard, I am glad you were such a good father to M. That he can not conceive of this. It says a lot about you.

Vince Causey
January 7, 2014 1:25 pm

Chris,
Thank you for explaining your remark about the shortfall in money paid in to money being claimed. I asked the question because it wasn’t obvious that you were talking about pensions – I initially thought it was a comment on the increasing indebtedness of Western nations.
I take your point about the pensions crisis. But if you think about it, it is the result of changing demographics and people living longer. More retirees to working people. This situation can occur with any arbitrary sized population and should not be taken to imply an absolute limit on population size.
A society that organizes retirement benefits around a more realistic life span would not have such problems. Retiring at 65 is a legacy from the past where men performed hard manual labour and were physically incapable of carrying on after that age. Their life expectancy was only 72 years anyway.
Since people are living longer I suggest the solution is to raise retirement age. In fact, the UK government has raised it from 65 to 66 for those retiring after 2020, to 67 for those retiring later, and 68 for later still. There is no longer a need for most working people to perform hard manual labour so this is achievable from a biological perspective.
The other question is whether there would be enough jobs to go round.

richardscourtney
January 7, 2014 1:49 pm

Chris:
In your post addressed to me at January 7, 2014 at 7:55 am you say

I think perhaps we are talking 2 different purposes here. You seem to be talking about the density of a given population in a certain area and I think I am talking about this from a perspective of affordability.

It is ALL “affordable”.
I have repeatedly asked you to refute my argument in my post at
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/05/overpopulation-the-fallacy-behind-the-fallacy-of-global-warming/#comment-1526318
You have studiously avoided doing that.
Instead, you have misrepresented my words (e.g. I did NOT make “reference to the US being able to support a bigger population”; read what I wrote) and you have added more unsubstantiated assertions which you say you believe.
That is not good enough. I would be interested to know what you THINK and why, but I have no interest in what you “believe”. Address the points I have put to you in response to your “beliefs” or don’t bother me.
Richard

January 7, 2014 2:02 pm

Chris says at January 7, 2014 at 8:57 am:
Communication error, the words “Well my post was deliberately provocative to economic theorists so it was not likely to be persuasive.” were my words!. I was saying I was not expecting to persuade Chris.
I was not quoting Chris.
When quoting I use quotation marks or .
My apologies for the confusion.

January 7, 2014 2:04 pm

or … blockquote.
My ability to use the internet is weak today.

richardscourtney
January 7, 2014 2:05 pm

Gail Combs:
You say to me in your post at January 7, 2014 at 11:00 am

Your are missing another point. In a rural agrarian society kids are free labor. For example my EX was driving a tractor at age five. In other parts of the world they weed, plant and tend animals. I saw a ~six year old girl tending cows in the Great Pyrenees in France for example.

Yes, I am aware of that. But it is not clearly an effect of poverty alone. Indeed, here in the affluent UK we have laws to punish parents whose children don’t attend school but in some agricultural areas school attendance falls at harvest time.
As I said, there are several reasons why poor people have large families: the ‘insurance’ reason is the main one.
As to your other matters, I am in general agreement. And – as you may have noticed – my son and I do not agree on much but (hoping he does not read this) I am justly proud of him.
Additionally, I am disappointed that your earlier point about transfer of intermediate technologies only gained support from me.
Richard

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