While some model based claims say that CO2 residence times may be thousands of years, a global experiment in measurable CO2 residence time seems to have already been done for us.
By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Is the ~10-year airborne half-life of 14CO2 demonstrated by the bomb-test curve (Fig. 1, and see Professor Gösta Pettersson’s post) the same variable as the IPCC’s residence time of 50-200 years? If so, does its value make any difference over time to the atmospheric concentration of CO2 and hence to any consequent global warming?
Figure 1. The decay curve of atmospheric 14C following the ending of nuclear bomb tests in 1963, assembled from European records by Gösta Pettersson.
The program of nuclear bomb tests that ended in 1963 doubled the atmospheric concentration of 14CO2 compared with its cosmogenic baseline. However, when the tests stopped half the 14C left the atmosphere in ten years. Almost all had gone after 50 years. Why should not the other isotopes of CO2 disappear just as rapidly?
Mr. Born, in comments on my last posting, says the residence time of CO2 has no bearing on its atmospheric concentration: “It’s not an issue of which carbon isotopes we’re talking about. The issue is the difference between CO2 concentration and residence time in the atmosphere of a typical CO2 molecule, of whatever isotope. The bomb tests, which tagged some CO2 molecules, showed us the latter, and I have no reason to believe that the residence time of any other isotope would be much different.”
He goes on to assert that CO2 concentration is independent of the residence time, thus:
The total mass m of airborne CO2 equals the combined mass m12 of 12,13CO2 plus the mass m14 of 14CO2 (1):
Let CO2 be emitted to the atmosphere from all sources at a rate e = e12 + e14 and removed by uptake at a rate u. Then the rate of change in CO2 mass over time is given by
which says the total mass m of CO2, and thus its concentration, varies as the net emission, which is the difference between source e and sink u rates.
For example, if e = u, the total mass m remains unchanged even if few individual molecules remain airborne for long. Also, where e > u, m will rise unless and until u = e. Also, unless thereafter u > e, he thinks the mass m will remain elevated indefinitely. By contrast, he says, the rate of change in 14CO2 mass is given by
which, he says, tells us that, even if e were to remain equal to u, so that total CO2 concentration remained constant, the excess 14CO2 concentration
which is the difference between the (initially elevated) 14CO2 concentration and the prior cosmogenic baseline 14CO2 concentration, would still decay with a time constant m/u, which, therefore, tells us nothing about how long total CO2 concentration would remain at some higher level to which previously-elevated emissions might have raised it. In this scenario, for example, the concentration remains elevated forever even though x decays. Mr. Born concludes that the decay rate of x tells us the turnover rate of CO2 in the air but does not tell us how fast the uptake rate u will adjust to increased emissions.
On the other hand, summarizing Professor Pettersson, reversible reactions tend towards an equilibrium defined by a constant k. Emission into a reservoir perturbs the equilibrium, whereupon relaxation drains the excess x from the reservoir, re-establishing equilibrium over time. Where µ is the rate-constant of decay, which is the reciprocal of the relaxation time, (5) gives the fraction ft of x that remains in the reservoir at any time t, where e, here uniquely, is exp(1):
The IPCC’s current estimates (fig. 2) of the pre-industrial baseline contents of the carbon reservoirs are 600 PgC in the atmosphere, 2000 PgC in the biosphere, and 38,000 PgC in the hydrosphere. Accordingly the equilibrium constant k, equivalent to the baseline pre-industrial ratio of atmospheric to biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, is 600 / (2000 + 38,000), or 0.015, so that 1.5% of any excess x that Man or Nature adds to the atmosphere will remain airborne indefinitely.
Empirically, Petterson finds the value of the rate-constant of decay µ to be ~0.07, giving a relaxation time µ–1 of ~14 years and yielding the red curve fitted to the data in Fig. 1. Annual values of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x, determined by me by way of (5), are at Table 1.
Figure 2. The global carbon cycle. Numbers represent reservoir sizes in PgC, and carbon exchange fluxes in PgC yr–1. Dark blue numbers and arrows indicate estimated pre-industrial reservoir sizes and natural fluxes. Red arrows and numbers indicate fluxes averaged over 2000–2009 arising from CO2 emissions from fossil fuel combustion, cement production and land-use change. Red numbers in the reservoirs denote cumulative industrial-era changes from 1750–2011. Source: IPCC (2013), Fig. 6.1.
| t = 1 | .932 | .869 | .810 | .755 | .704 | .657 | .612 | .571 | .533 | .497 |
| 11 | .464 | .433 | .404 | .377 | .362 | .329 | .307 | .287 | .268 | .251 |
| 21 | .235 | .219 | .205 | .192 | .180 | .169 | .158 | .148 | .139 | .130 |
| 31 | .122 | .115 | .108 | .102 | .096 | .090 | .085 | .080 | .076 | .071 |
| 41 | .067 | .064 | .060 | .057 | .054 | .052 | .049 | .047 | .045 | .042 |
| 51 | .041 | .039 | .037 | .036 | .034 | .033 | .032 | .030 | .029 | .028 |
| 61 | .027 | .027 | .026 | .026 | .024 | .024 | .023 | .022 | .022 | .021 |
| 71 | .021 | .021 | .020 | .020 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .018 | .018 |
| 81 | .018 | .018 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .016 | .016 |
| 91 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 |
| 101 | .016 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
| 111 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
Table 1. Annual fractions ft of the excess x of 14CO2 remaining airborne in a given year t following the bomb-test curve determined via (5), showing the residential half-life of airborne 14C to be ~10 years. As expected, the annual fractions decay after 100 years to a minimum 1.5% above the pre-existing cosmogenic baseline.
Now, it is at once evident that Professor Pettersson’s analysis differs from that of the IPCC, and from that of Mr. Born, in several respects. Who is right?
Mr. Born offers an elegantly-expressed analogy:
“Consider a source emitting 1 L min–1 of a fluid F1 into a reservoir that already contains 15.53 L of F1, while a sink is simultaneously taking up 1 L min–1 of the reservoir’s contents. The contents remain at a steady 15.53 L.
“Now change the source to a different fluid F2, still supplied at 1 L min–1 and miscible ideally with F1 as well as sharing its density and flow characteristics. After 50 minutes, 96% of F1 will have left the reservoir, but the reservoir will still contain 15.53 L.
“Next, instantaneously inject an additional 1 L bolus of F2, raising the reservoir’s contents to 16.53 L. What does that 96% drop in 50 minutes that was previously observed reveal about how rapidly the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change thereafter from 16.53 L? I don’t think it tells us anything. It is the difference between source and sink rates that tells us how fast the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change. The rate, observed above, at which the contents turn over does not tell us that.
“The conceptual problem may arise from the fact that the 14C injection sounds as though it parallels the second operation above: it was, I guess, adding a slug of CO2 over and above pre-existing sources. But – correct me if I’m wrong – that added amount was essentially infinitesimal: it made no detectable change in the CO2 concentration, so in essence it merely changed the isotopic composition of that concentration, not the concentration itself. Therefore, the 14C injection parallels the first step above, while Man’s recent CO2 emissions parallel the second step.”
However, like all analogies, by definition this one breaks down at some point.
Figure 3. Comparison between the decay curves of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x of CO2 across the interval t on [1, 100] years.
As Fig. 3 shows, the equilibrium constant k, the fraction of total excess concentration x that remains airborne indefinitely, has – if it is large enough – a major influence on the rate of decay. At the k = 0.15 determined by Professor Pettersson as the baseline pre-industrial ratio of the contents of the atmospheric to the combined biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, the decay curve is close to a standard exponential-decay curve, such that, in (5), k = 0. However, at the 0.217 that is assumed in the Bern climate model, on which all other models rely, the course of the decay curve is markedly altered by the unjustifiably elevated equilibrium constant.
On this ground alone, one would expect CO2 to linger more briefly in the atmosphere than the Bern model and the models dependent upon it assume. To use Mr. Born’s own analogy, if any given quantum of fluid poured into a container remains there for less time than it otherwise would have done (in short, if it finds its way more quickly out of the container than the fixed rate of exit that his analogy implausibly assumes), then, ceteris paribus, there will be less fluid in the container.
Unlike the behavior of the contents of the reservoir described in Mr. Born’s analogy, the fraction of the excess remaining airborne at the end of the decay curve will be independent of the emission rate e and the uptake rate u.
Since the analogy breaks down at the end of the process and, therefore, to some degree throughout it, does it also break down on the question whether the rate of change in the contents of the reservoir is, as Mr. Born maintains in opposition to what Pettersson shows in (5), absolutely described by e – u?
Let us cite Skeptical Science as what the sociologists call a “negative reference group” – an outfit that is trustworthy only in that it is usually wrong about just about everything. The schoolboys at the University of Queensland, which ought really to be ashamed of them, feared Professor Murry Salby’s assertion that temperature change, not Man, is the prime determinant of CO2 concentration change.
They sought to dismiss his idea in their customarily malevolent fashion by sneering that the change in CO2 concentration was equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions and uptakes. Since there is no anthropogenic uptake to speak of, they contrived the following rinky-dink equationette:
The kiddiwinks say CO2 concentration change is equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions less the natural uptake. They add that we can measure CO2 concentration growth (equal to net emission) each year, and we can reliably deduce the anthropogenic emission from the global annual fossil-fuel consumption inventories. Rearranging (6):
They say that, since observed ea ≈ 2ΔCO2, the natural world on the left-hand side of (7) is perforce a net CO2 sink, not a net source as they thought Professor Salby had concluded. Yet his case, here as elsewhere, was subtler than they would comprehend.
Professor Salby, having shown by careful cross-correlations on all timescales, even short ones (Fig. 4, left), that CO2 concentration change lags temperature change, demonstrated that in the Mauna Loa record, if one examines it at a higher resolution than what is usually displayed (Fig. 4, right), there is a variation of up to 3 µatm from year to year in the annual CO2 concentration increment (which equals net emission).
Figure 4. Left: CO2 change lags and may be caused by temperature change. Right: The mean annual CO2 increment is 1.5 µatm, but the year-on-year variability is twice that.
The annual changes in anthropogenic CO2 emission are nothing like 3 µatm (Fig. 5, left). However, Professor Salby has detected – and, I think, may have been the first to observe – that the annual fluctuations in the CO2 concentration increment are very closely correlated with annual fluctuations in surface conditions (Fig. 5, right).
Figure 5. Left: global annual anthropogenic CO2 emissions rise near-monotonically and the annual differences are small. Right: an index of surface conditions (blue: 80% temperature change, 20% soil-moisture content) is closely correlated with fluctuations in CO2 concentration (green).
Annual fluctuations of anthropogenic CO2 emissions are small, but those of atmospheric CO2 concentration are very much larger, from which Professor Salby infers that their major cause is not Man but Nature, via changes in temperature. For instance, Henry’s Law holds that a cooler ocean can take up more CO2.
In that thought, perhaps, lies the reconciliation of the Born and Pettersson viewpoints. For the sources and sinks of CO2 are not static, as Mr. Born’s equations (1-4) and analogy assume, but dynamic. Increase the CO2 concentration and the biosphere responds with an observed global increase in net plant productivity. The planet gets greener as trees and plants gobble up the plant food we emit for them.
Similarly, if the weather gets a great deal warmer, as it briefly did during the Great el Niño of 1997/8, outgassing from the ocean will briefly double the annual net CO2 emission. But if it gets a great deal cooler, as it did in 1991/2 following the eruption of Pinatubo, net annual accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere falls to little more than zero notwithstanding our emissions. It is possible, then, that as the world cools in response to the continuing decline in solar activity the ocean sink may take up more CO2 than we emit, even if we do not reduce our emissions.
Interestingly, several groups are working on demonstrating that, just as Professor Salby can explain recent fluctuations in Co2 concentration as a function of the time-integral of temperature change, in turn temperature change can be explained as a function of the time-integral of variations in solar activity. It’s the Sun, stupid!
It is trivially true that we are adding newly-liberated CO2 to the atmosphere every year, in contrast to the 14C pulse that ended in 1963 with the bomb tests. However, the bomb-test curve does show that just about all CO2 molecules conveniently marked with one or two extra neutrons in their nuclei will nearly all have come out of the atmosphere within 50 years.
To look at it another way, if we stopped adding CO2 to the atmosphere today, the excess remaining in the atmosphere after 100 years would be 1.5% of whatever we have added, and that is all. What is more, that value is not only theoretically derivable as the ratio of the contents of the atmospheric carbon reservoir to those of the combined active reservoirs of the hydrosphere and biosphere but also empirically consistent with the observed bomb-test curve (Fig. 1).
If the IPCC were right, though, the 50-200yr residence time of CO2 that it imagines would imply much-elevated concentrations for another century or two, for otherwise, it would not bother to make such an issue of the residence time. For the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere does make a difference to future concentration levels.
To do a reductio ad absurdum in the opposite direction, suppose every molecule of CO2 we emitted persisted in the atmosphere only for a fraction of a second, then the influence of anthropogenic CO2 on global temperature would be negligible, and changes in CO2 concentration would be near-entirely dependent upon natural influences.
Atmospheric CO2 concentration is already accumulating in the atmosphere at less than half the rate at which we emit it. Half of all the CO2 we emit does indeed appear to vanish instantly from the atmosphere. This still-unexplained discrepancy, which the IPCC in its less dishonest days used to call the “missing sink”, is more or less exactly accounted for where, as Professor Pettersson suggests, CO2’s atmospheric residence time is indeed as short as the bomb-test curve suggests it is and not as long as the 50-200 years imagined by the IPCC.
And what does IPeCaC have to say about the bomb-test curve? Not a lot:
“Because fossil fuel CO2 is devoid of radiocarbon (14C), reconstructions of the 14C/C isotopic ratio of atmospheric CO2 from tree rings show a declining trend (Levin et al., 2010; Stuiver and Quay, 1981) prior to the massive addition of 14C in the atmosphere by nuclear weapon tests which has been offsetting that declining trend signal.”
And that is just about all They have to say about it.
Has Professor Pettersson provided the mechanism that explains why Professor Salby is right? If the work of these two seekers after truth proves meritorious, then that is the end of the global warming scare.
As Professor Lindzen commented when Professor Salby first told him of his results three years ago, since a given CO2 excess causes only a third of the warming the IPCC imagines, if not much more than half of that excess of CO2 is anthropogenic, and if it spends significantly less time in the atmosphere than the models imagine, there is nowhere for the climate extremists to go. Every component of their contrived theory will have been smashed.
It is because the consequences of this research are so potentially important that I have set out an account of the issue here at some length. It is not for a fumblesome layman such as me to say whether Professor Pettersson and Professor Salby (the latter supported by Professor Lindzen) are right. Or is Mr. Born right?
Quid vobis videtur?
Related articles
- Why and How the IPCC Demonized CO2 with Manufactured Information (wattsupwiththat.com)
@Bobl
You really took the wind out of my sails with your exquisite explanations and improved analogy. I too felt the analogy needed upgrading. I would add that the drain hole be conceived rather as a number of pinholes at different heights with the flow through each sink responding to the addition of fluid according to its vertical height below the ‘waterline’. Adding a viscosity change with temperature is realistic too. There are additional holes above the waterline that will start leaking if the level rises. There are akin to the CO2-starved sinks that are presently almost inactive.
I was happy to see the references to fresh water and Henry’s Law. The seas have only about 1/2 the CO2 of fresh water. Rain and rivers carry CO2 into the oceans where it is gobbled up by numerous processes, leaving around 620 ppm. The ocean water evaporates to make more fresh rain water which has double the CO2, and it falls again to feed those sinks, stripping the atmosphere.
Many posts/articles concentrate on the ocean-atmosphere as if it were only about Henry’s Law and partial pressures. But the interaction involving fresh water and sea water and the water cycle is very important. Melt Antarctica and there will be nothing left for the plants to eat unless the oceans give back. This may be the missing sink. It is a stripping process similar to the one that dries the stratosphere. It is the same as the process used by Giant Sequoias which each emit about 500 gallons per day (in the morning) and harvest water vapour from the ‘Frisco fog. Rain, with over 1100 ppm CO2 falling into rivers and oceans, is the agent of a massive CO2 sinking process.
You have to give it to him: he always forces us to consult our dictionaries (or is it dictionarionettes?).
Lord Monckton writes “Willis Eschenbach presumes – incorrectly and on no evidence – that I do not understand the distinction between turnover time and response (or e-folding) time. ”
Lord Monckton also wrote in his article “If the IPCC were right, though, the 50-200yr residence time of CO2 that it imagines would imply much-elevated concentrations for another century or two, for otherwise, it would not bother to make such an issue of the residence time.”, which unambiguously asserts that the IPCC think that the residence time of CO2 is 50-200yr. The IPCC do not think that the residence time is 50-200yrs, but instead about four years, and give a figure for the adjustment time of about 100 years. This seems to me to be good evidence supporting Willis’ criticism.
See the glossary of the AR4 report for details under “lifetime”, which says:
“In more complicated cases, where several reservoirs are involved or where the removal is not proportional to the total mass, the equality T = Ta no longer holds. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is an extreme example. Its turnover time is only about four years because of the rapid exchange between the atmosphere and the ocean and terrestrial biota. However, a large part of that CO2 is returned to the atmosphere within a few years. Thus, the adjustment time of CO2 in the atmosphere is actually determined by the rate of removal of carbon from the surface layer of the oceans into its deeper layers. Although an approximate value of 100 years may be given for the adjustment time of CO2 in the atmosphere, the actual adjustment is faster initially and slower later on. ”
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/annexessglossary-e-o.html
The C14 measurements give an estimate of residence time because C14 is not replenished by the fluxes with the oceans and terrestrial biota. To estimate the adjustment time, it is necessary to consider the action of the sources as well as the sinks.
dikranmarsupial, there is a major difference between a reservoir and a sink, and one should never use the two interchangeably. A reservoir has multi-dimensional fluxes, at minimum an influx and efflux, whereas a sink has uni-dimensional flux, an influx into the sink and efflux from the system. Systems also have an input, again this is a uni-dimensional flux, an efflux or influx into the system.
With respect to the carbon cycle, the input is volcanic CO2 that goes into the atmosphere at about 0.28 GtC per year; enough to replace the whole of the carbon content of the Biosphere in 150,000 years.
The atmosphere is a reservoir, with both CO2 influx and efflux.
The oceans are a reservoir, with both CO2 influx and efflux.
Mineraliztion of biotic carbon, either as carbonates or a organic carbon rich sediments, is a sink.
(Over millions of years subduction of the Earths crust performs a shake and bake of the mineralized carbon, previously ‘sunk’, via volcanoes. However, as the timescales are more than two orders of magnitude slower that the total carbon turnover time of 150 Ky, we can treat these processes as inputs and sinks.)
Never use the term ‘Sink’, when you mean efflux into a reservoir.
Yes it is. Or at least it is as the delta between the bomb-spike atmospheric pulse and the pre-existing background value approaches zero. As this happens, the exchange between the two approaches (approaches) equilibrium. This is close now, yet the first order exponential decay curve (e.g. the Jungfaujoch data in Levin et al Tellus 2010, 62B, 26-46) appears not to be changing rapidly, and is still indicating a half-life decay time of ~10 years in the 1997-2007 window. (If you have a direct data file for the Levine data, I would love a copy).
In fact, it may well be that changes in human emissions (power stations etc) may well be masking the atmospheric-scrubbing of CO2, and making this decay time look longer than it really is.
The 14C experiment is still running, and it’s not looking good for the IPCC.
Janice Moore,
Thank you for posting the link to Dr Salby’s lecture. Although it was a bit technical and immersed in a lot of math, there is a very clear take away point.
He showed how climate models show future temperatures tracking projected CO2 so closely the two lines appear indistinguishable. Salby is arguing that CO2 tracks not temperature but the integral of temperature. Look at the recent RSS satellite temperature dataset compared with CO2 over the same period. You all remember the divergence. He then added a third line – the integral of temperature, and hey presto – this tracked the CO2 line almost exactly.
There is a prediction in all of this. If CO2 tracks the integral of temperature, then model predictions will continue to diverge from the temperature datasets, and the divergence will become greater and greater. At some point it will be obvious that the models are wrong.
Ferdinand,
The methods in Bates et al are not impressive. We can do much better than take samples “skewed to the spring” and ship them to Scripps “stored several months to several years”.
As much as they should be congratulated for actually measuring, this harks of measurements of the “surface” interchange with instruments dragged by ships at several meters depth. What we should be doing is actually measuring the uptake in the polar regions and the outgassing in mid latitude and equatorial regions. We know where they are, or at least we think we do.
The elephant in the room is biology. One only need look at the ridiculous isotopic swings in the early Triassic to see the impact biological activity can have on isotopic composition. See Jonathan Payne et al 2004 or reference in:
http://geosciencebigpicture.com/2012/07/15/carbon-isotope…-the-biosphere/
While your point is well taken that current ocean outgassing represents a Viking era isotope ratio, the plankton get the first shot at that Carbon on the way out, and they are clearly starved for it. See Wolf-Gladrow et al or above.
CO2 is not the only limiting nutrient, but the Bermuda gyre (or any of the ocean dead zones) is precisely the place where one expects limitation from a variety of nutrients. It is not the place to gauge global ocean biological Carbon uptake.
Thank you Joe Born. Your initial civil critique of Monckton on other threads and blogs led to this thread’s value.
Your calm and civil response on one of those other threads to being called a troll is a classic.
John
A hole-in-one, I think.
And the elephant in the biological room may well turn out to be carbonic-anhydrase. People do study it in the biosphere, but try finding it discussed in IPCC-related literature.
– – – – – – – – –
I have enthusiastically followed both Lindzen’s and Salby’s public talks and written words since 2008 and 2011 respectively, however, I do not recall either of them discussing the 14C from atmospheric atomic bomb tests.
Monckton does not quote them but uses his own words to relate private conversations on 14C.
I would like to have their own direct words publicly documented on the 14C topic.
Does anyone know if Lindzen or Salby have publicly addressed formally and specifically the 14C topic?
John
Pettersson’s model has atmospheric carbon in dynamic equilibrium with terrestrial and marine carbon. If you insert a slug of extra atmospheric carbon, the trees and the plankton will start growing faster (experiments confirm that plants grow faster with more CO2) and eventually the atmosphere will return to its original CO2 levels. The Bomb Curve allows us to quantify the word “eventually”.
If Pettersson is correct, it follows that: a) if CO2 is continually added at a constant rate, the atmospheric levels will rise and then stay constant (because the trees and plankton can never quite catch up to the atmosphere), and b) if CO2 is added at a constantly accelerating rate, the atmospheric levels will rise linearly without ceasing, at a rate proportional to that acceleration.
If Mr. Born was right (and no-one thinks he is) then there would be no reason to expect a CO2 equilibrium to exist.
The pseudonymous “Dickranmarsupial” complains that I have confused residence time with adjustment time. On each occasion where I was specifying the type of time that I was talking about I did so in explicit, mathematical terms, on most occasions quoting others.
In climate science, like it or not, “residence time” is sometimes used as the equivalent of “atmospheric lifetime”, also known as “adjustment time” (as, for instance, IPCC 1995 does when discussing the atmospheric persistence of aerosols, using the term “residence time” in one sentence and, referring to exactly the same thing, “atmospheric lifetime” in the next sentence). IPCC (1990, 1995) both use “atmospheric lifetime” to describe their 50-200yr estimates of CO2’s residence time or adjustment time.
On a single occasion in the head posting I used the term “residence half-life” (the only point at which I myself used the word “residence” at all), because the persistence of 14CO2 in the atmosphere follows an exponential decay curve, albeit moderated by an equilibrium constant: and I submit that it was entirely clear from the context what I was talking about.
Where I was referring to the turnover time, and that, too, has a variety of names, such as “relaxation time”, and is shorter than the residence time, I made that quite explicit, and again defined it mathematically.
Perhaps it would be helpful if people were to eschew futile semantics. If Dickranmarsupial thinks that I have defined or used any of the terms imprecisely, let him explain exactly where I have departed from the well-understood mathematics of exponential decay, which was – after all – the principal focus of the head posting.
Monckton says in his response to Eschenbach’s critique: “The objective of the posting was to enquire why the response time of the usual isotopes of CO2 should be any different from that of radiocarbon as established by the bomb-test curve.”
No one here has been able to show why it is otherwise. The half-life of atmospheric CO2 seems to be established at ten years, or several decades instead of the absurd claim of several centuries. Thanks is due to Lord Monckton for this very important posting.
Mr. Whitman says I quoted Professors Lindzen and Salby on 14C. I did no such thing. I quoted Salby on the notion that the integral of surface temperature change is very closely correlated with CO2 concentration change, and Lindzen as supporting Salby’s conclusions. I only mentioned Salby (and hence Lindzen) at all because the head posting was speculating on whether Professor Pettersson’s theory might help to explain both Salby’s result and the embarrassingly large “missing sink” of CO2.
I have no idea whether Professors Lindzen or Salby had considered the implications of the bomb-test 14C decay curve, which is why I did not cite them on the subject.
Ian W says:
November 22, 2013 at 4:22 am
You shoud read: “CO2 diffusion in polar ice: observations from naturally formed CO2 spikes in the Siple Dome (Antarctica) ice core”
I have read that: it confirms that the migration of CO2 in a “warm” ice core like Siple Dome (-23 °C) is very small. The migration after 2.7 kyr broadens the resolution of the ice core from ~20 years to ~22 years and at full dept (70 kyr), from ~20 years to ~40 years. That is all. No big deal. For the much colder Vostok (- 40 °C) and Dome C ice cores, the migration is even much smaller. That is also confirmed by the fact that the ice cores CO2 / temperature ratio remains the same (at about 8 ppmv/°C) for each glacial-interglacial transition back in time. If there was any substantial migration, the ratio would fade over time.
Not according to Salby: after 100 kyr the measured CO2 peak of ~100 ppmv would have been 10 times higher, thus ~1000 ppmv. After 2×100 kyr 10,000 ppmv etc… But as migration decreases the peaks, it doesn’t change the average over the period of interest, or for each glacial period the measured level of 180 ppmv according to Salby would be about 70 ppmv, in the second period below zero,…
Which of course is impossible as below 180 ppmv all C3 plants suffer from suffocation…
If Monckton of Brenchley wrote “IPCC (1990, 1995) both use “atmospheric lifetime” to describe their 50-200yr estimates of CO2′s residence time or adjustment time.” Actually, the 1990 report clearly distinguished between turnover (residence) time and adjustment time, in section 1.2.1 on page 8:
“The turnover [DM: i.e. residence] time of CO2 in the atmosphere, measured
as the ratio of the content to the fluxes through it, is about 4
years This means that on average it takes only a few years
betorc a CO2 molecule in the atmosphere is taken up by
plants or dissolved in the ocean This short time scale must
not be confused with the time it takes tor the atmospheric
CO2 level to adjust to a new equilibrium if sources or sinks
change This adjustment time, corresponding to the lifetime
in Table 1 1, is of the order of 50 – 200 years, determined
mainly by the slow exchange of carbon between surface
waters and the deep ocean The adjustment time is
important for the discussions on global warming potential,
cf Section 2 2 7”
C14 is not significantly replenished from the oceanic or terrestrial reservoirs, so its decay is a measurement of the turnover or residence time, and are not an estimate of the adjustment time. As a result the decay rate of 14CO2 is not an indication of the rate at which a pulse of CO2 is taken up by the other reservoirs.
The glossary entry I mention explained that for most atmospheric constituents the residence time and adjustment time are the same but that is not the case for CO2 (which is constantly replenished from the oceanic and terrestrial reservoirs). As a result mentioning the use of adjustment time in connection with aerosols only adds to the evidence that you are not distinguishing between adjustment time and residence time.
Further details are given in my paper on this subject, published in response to Prof. Essnhigh’s paper on residence time. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef200914u .
Oh, hurrah! At least five of you read my post! #(:))
Alan Smersh, thank you for the support. The Hamburg lecture video I linked, by the way, already does what you are looking for in a new video, I think, but, as Vince Causey (thank you, Mr. Causey for letting me know my post was worthwhile) pointed out, perhaps, an annotated version with more explanation of the physics and math would be helpful.
@Christopher Monckton — that is great news! Looking forward to it. And, thank you, for letting me know that you gave my post your attention. That knowledge was, per se, encouraging.
And thank you to all you scientists commenting above this has been a great thread for learning.
*****************************************
To underscore what to me was the most persuasive (out of the many excellent cites to evidence above) point:
(emphasis mine)
BAM! T.K.O. — “Aaand the winner is….. Christopher Monckton of….er……… {hastily consult cheat sheet in palm of hand}……. BRENCHLEY!” (loud cheers and enthusiastic applause from the crowd — while the IPCC and its sorry little bunch of supporters sadly slink away out the back door……. Oh, I just feel so bad for them — NOT!).
Take a bow!
Ian W says:
November 22, 2013 at 4:08 am
It should of course be noted that the surface area of the oceans is actually dwarfed by the surface area of cloud water droplets which are both cold and when they form CO2 free. By Henry’s law these droplets will take up a lot of CO2.
Rain is fresh water, fresh water will contain very little CO2 at a pressure of 0.0004 bar, which mostly was released from the same warm oceans where water vapour was entering the atmosphere. When water vapour cools at some height, it will take some CO2 from that height and temperature. When it drops to the ground, water may evaporate and release its CO2 content again. For 1 mm water height (1 l/m2) of rainfall, the CO2 content of the lowest meter above ground level can be increased with maximum 1 ppmv CO2…
You can calculate that yourself with the atmospheric CO2 pressure and temperature for CO2 solubiity in fresh water, here for 1 bar:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html
Nick Stokes says:
November 21, 2013 at 7:36 pm
“They say the plant reservoir has diminished by 15 Gtons C. They aren’t sure that it’s down – the range is -45 to +15.”
I used to have one of those humorous sheets that get passed around graduate departments entitled “A Guide To Reading the Literature”. Some of my favorites were:
Basically, what you are saying here is, they haven’t really got a clue.
Lubos Motl says:
November 22, 2013 at 1:42 am
“It’s trivial to see that the residence time of CO2 is of order 30 years or longer. We emit 4 ppm worth of CO2 a year; the CO2 concentration increases by 2 ppm per year.”
It is distressing to see an otherwise learned fellow essentially restate the “mass balance” bilge.
dikranmarsupial says:
November 22, 2013 at 2:43 am
“The mathematical flaw in Salby’s correllation analysis is explained here http://www.skepticalscience.com/salby_correlation_conundrum.html “
A shallow analysis which totally misses the integral dependence on temperatures, and the idiotic “mass balance” argument thrown in for good measure,
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 22, 2013 at 3:05 am
This is beside the point. I do not agree with your analysis, which is heavily influenced by the erroneous “mass balance” argument. But, it is beside the point. We can argue about whether the feedbacks are strong enough to take out the anthropogenic component without a shrug (they are, as is evidenced by the temperature dependency of atmospheric CO2), but either way, equation (7) from the article is hooey.
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 22, 2013 at 3:41 am
“But there is not the slightest proof of such high migration over time (not even measurable in the coldest ice cores over 800 kyr). “
There is, and he reviews it. He is not just making an assertion. He is backing it up with analysis.
joeldshore says:
November 22, 2013 at 5:14 am
“No, the natural emissions that matter are not greater than the burning of fossil fuels.”
This is an assertion with no proof. It is quite evident from the temperature dependency of atmospheric CO2 that they are. This is not a recirculating fountain. It is a fountain with a large drain, a huge natural pipeline in, and a tiny little human input in.
DocMartyn says:
November 22, 2013 at 8:22 am
Important distinctions. The fountain analogy, which Joel et al. prefer to employ, is all reservoir, no sink.
Vince Causey says:
November 22, 2013 at 9:09 am
“There is a prediction in all of this. If CO2 tracks the integral of temperature, then model predictions will continue to diverge from the temperature datasets, and the divergence will become greater and greater. At some point it will be obvious that the models are wrong.”
Yes. And, judging by the temperature dependent slope of atmospheric CO2, which has flatlined in rate, and the ever increasing emissions, that day should not be too long in coming.
Forget the cant and narrative for a while, everyone, and focus on this. Suppose the atmospheric CO2 is described by the differential equation
1) dCO2/dt = (CO2eq – CO2)/tau + a*H
CO2eq = equilibrium CO2 level, which is essentially dictated by global temperatures
tau = a time constant
a = fraction of anthropogenic CO2 which is not rapidly absorbed
H = anthropogenic inputs
This is a toy equation, but it is representative of everything we are discussing. The term -C02/tau is the natural sink rate. The warmist argument is that the effective tau is very large, so that the equation essentially becomes
2) dCO2/dt := a*H
and a is approximately 1/2. This agrees, on a very superficial and erroneous level, with observations.
Salby’s argument is essentially* that tau is short, so that the equation is approximately
3a) dCO2/dt := (CO2eq – CO2)/tau
and further, that
3b) dCO2eq/dt = k*(T – Teq)
where k is a coupling factor, T is global temperature anomaly, and Teq is an equilibrium temperature.
In all cases, H is greater than zero, so it is always trivially true that dCO2/dt – (CO2eq – CO2)/tau is positive, which is the “mass balance” argument, and is totally useless.
So, the argument is all about whether tau is short or long, i.e., whether the sinks are powerful or weak. The evidence indicates that it is short, and equation (3b) is matched to a very high degree of fidelity in the collected data.
*I do not want it to be misunderstood that I am restating Salby’s argument – I am not. This is my own argument, using Salby’s work as backup. I am not putting words into Salby’s mouth, and he may or may not disagree with my extension of his argument.
Mike Jonas — “Thus the Revelle effect greatly increases the ocean’s ability to absorb CO2. As you say, about 10 times.”
Ferdinand had the grace not to call me out on making the same mistake in speaking to him about Henry’s Law that is required to state that the Revelle factor alters Carbon Dioxide uptake in any fashion. Consider: We have CO2, Bicarbonate and Carbonate. If you consider these to be different: Henry’s Law and the Revelle factor contradict one another. But the issue is that CO2, Bicarbonate and Carbonate are freely transposable to one another. More to the point, they don’t simply ‘exist’ within the water but are constantly converting from one to another on the basis of the conditions local to each molecule. If the average of all local conditions gives a ph of X, then we can speak about the average fraction of CO2 that will exist at any given time as one of the three conditions. But because any given molecule of interest is varying its state, there are no issues with Henry’s Law at all.
If, however, you have a known equilibrium condition and a known PH, then you will measure CO2 directly and only as being in violation of Henry’s Law. And this can lead you to all sorts of strange conclusions: Such that the Revelle factor — ph buffering — changes the rate at which CO2 is dissolved in solution. Which is simply not the case. You are measuring just one component of a volatile equilibrium of CO2, Bicarbonate, and Carbonate. Such that if we are interested in dealing with the ocean as a CO2 sink, it is not the partial pressure of CO2, but the partial pressure of dissolved inorganic carbon, or the DIC, that Ferdinand referred to.
So if someone states that Revelle’s law is material to conditions, or to the impulse response rate, then you know it’s one of Kip Hansen’s scarves. Or, like me, they forgot to consider that DIC’s freely convert one to another constantly and below the time scale of interest.
DocMartyn says:
November 22, 2013 at 4:35 am
Ferdinand the fixation of carbon in the upper ocean denudes the SURFACE of carbon, both CO2 and DIC, where there is biological carbon fixation
Agreed, but that is only important if the CO2 fixation changes with increased CO2 pressure in the atmosphere, which is hardly the case as there is more than sufficient CO2 and derivates in seawater to serve far more biolife. CO2 is not the limiting factor…
See Feely e.a. for the effect of temperature, pCO2 and biolife from poles to equator:
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/feel2331/exchange.shtml
On the way down the DOC is converted to CO2/CH4 depending on ecology.
However, the falling of ‘marine snow’ is the fasted rate of carbon transport in the oceans and this rate and mass transfer
The figures I have seen are between 2 and 6 GtC/yr for the “raining out” of organic carbon from the upper ocean layer into the deep oceans. The inorganic carbon flux via the THC is estimated (by me) at about 40 GtC/yr, based on the “thinning” of the 13C/12C ratio caused by fossil fuel burning in the atmosphere:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/deep_ocean_air_zero.jpg
Bart says:
November 22, 2013 at 10:31 am
I had meant to segment off the part starting at “Forget the cant and narrative…”, but it is there, so I will leave it. If the tau of the bomb test is about 14 years, then the total contribution of H to CO2 is approximately
CO2(H) = a*tau*H
It is said that the integral of a*H is on the order of the change observed so, if that is roughly 100 ppmv in roughly 100 years, we can upper bound this as a*H is less than 1 ppmv/year equivalent. So, the net contribution of H to CO2 is on the order of less than 14 ppmv. Pretty negligible.
“In all cases, H is greater than zero, so it is always trivially true that dCO2/dt – (CO2eq – CO2)/tau is positive, which is the “mass balance” argument, and is totally useless.”
That is not quite right. The “mass balance” argument is that dCO2/dt – H is less than zero, which means that CO2eq – CO2 + (a-1)*tau*H is less that zero. If tau is short, then
CO2 := CO2eq + a*tau*H
so, CO2eq – CO2 + (a-1)*tau*H := -tau*H is always less than zero. It is still meaningless. In a dynamic system, the “mass balance” argument is a statement of a triviality.
“…there are no issues with Henry’s Law at all.”
Yes there are. Henry’s Law is statement of equilibrium. Knowing the equilibrium constant does not tell you the rate constants without further information.
Why might that matter?
Because CO2 and bicarbonate are indeed transposable to one another, but the reaction is quite slow compared to diffusion-limited reactions. The can of cola losing its fizz after reaching room temperature is more complex than it first appears. Which is why nature ubiquitously makes use of carbonic-anhydrase to speed up the exchange reaction by a factor of more than a million.
Where might that matter?
At locations which are not at equilibrium: Carbon sources and carbon sinks where there is life. Which is most places. And not necessarily photosynthesizing life. A cold ocean that is absorbing CO2 (driven by pH/Revelle factor) can do so faster with non-photosynthesizing microscopic life-forms floating at or near the surface (and vice versa). The question is how much?
Rob: “Equation 3 is not dimensionally correct. e14e has units of ([m]/[t])^2. LHS is in units of [m]/[t]”
In changing variables from my original equation here: http://joannenova.com.au/2013/11/monckton-bada/#comment-1343249, Lord M. made it (in his words) “dimensionally challenged.” Rather than “e14e” on the RHS, it should have been “ce,” where c is the (dimensionless) cosmogenic carbon-14 fraction.
Good catch; I missed that in reading the post. I guess I saw what I expected to see.
Pippen Kool says:
November 21, 2013 at 2:24 pm
You know, I bet most people knew what I meant. I am doing this on a cell phone….
“However, when the tests stopped half the 14C left the atmosphere in ten years. Almost all had gone after 50 years. Why should not the other isotopes of CO2 disappear just as rapidly?”
Because you are looking at dilution of the 14C BECAUSE IT IS INCORPORATED into the fixed carbon; the other isotopes are in equilibrium and won’t diminish.
(and if you want to be picky, the ocean would also accumulate the carbon at a slow rate)
The main pt is that once the carbon is out of the ground, it ain’t going away quickly e.g. with a 10 year half life.
Which is precisely why the bomb tests are important measures that show that carbon residence time is much shorter than IPCC models employ. It does go away quickly. The rate at which it disappears from the atmosphere and becomes fixed (in organic matter) can be measured by comparing the initial, pre-bomb test conditions to the period immediately after the bomb test, and then monitoring the return, after the tests, to initial conditions. C-14 is produced by the reaction of high-energy radiation (mostly cosmic) and nitrogen isotopes. When it decays it decays to different nitrogen isotopes. So its presence is completely independent of other sources of carbon isotopes. Since baseline C-14 concentrations are independent of any stable carbon isotope releases natural or anthropogenic, the pulse of the bomb-generated isotope provides an independent measure of carbon isotope atmospheric residence time.
That bomb generated material DID go away with a 10 year half life. That data is at present the only important, empirical measure of atmospheric residence time for carbon isotopes. Because it is a slightly heavier isotope than C-12 or C-13, it will a have a very slightly different residence time based upon temperature fractionation effects that also effect oxygen isotopes. That will be more than offset by the reaction of stable carbon with heavier oxygen isotopes, so it is irrelevant.