Towards a theory of climate

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

I have just had the honor of listening to Professor Murry Salby giving a lecture on climate. He had addressed the Numptorium in Holyrood earlier in the day, to the bafflement of the fourteenth-raters who populate Edinburgh’s daft wee parliament. In the evening, among friends, he gave one of the most outstanding talks I have heard.

Professor Salby has also addressed the Parliament of Eunuchs in Westminster. Unfortunately he did not get the opportunity to talk to our real masters, the unelected Kommissars of the European tyranny-by-clerk.

The Faceless Ones whose trembling, liver-spotted hands guide the European hulk of state unerringly towards the bottom were among the first and most naively enthusiastic true-believers in the New Superstition that is global warming. They could have benefited from a scientific education from the Professor.

His lecture, a simplified version of his earlier talk in Hamburg that was the real reason why spiteful profiteers of doom at Macquarie “University” maliciously canceled his non-refundable ticket home so that he could not attend the kangaroo court that dismissed him, was a first-class exercise in logical deduction.

He had written every word of it, elegantly. He delivered it at a measured pace so that everyone could follow. He unfolded his central case step by step, verifying each step by showing how his theoretical conclusions matched the real-world evidence.

In a normal world with mainstream news media devoted to looking at all subjects from every direction (as Confucius used to put it), Murry Salby’s explosive conclusion that temperature change drives CO2 concentration change and not the other way about would have made headlines. As it is, scarce a word has been published anywhere.

You may well ask what I might have asked: given that the RSS satellite data now show a zero global warming trend for 17 full years, and yet CO2 concentration has been rising almost in a straight line throughout, is it any more justifiable to say that temperature change causes CO2 change than it is to say that CO2 change causes temperature change?

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The Professor headed that one off at the pass. During his talk he said it was not global temperature simpliciter but the time-integral of global temperature that determined CO2 concentration change, and did so to a correlation coefficient of around 0.9.

I had first heard of Murry Salby’s work from Dick Lindzen over a drink at a regional government conference we were addressing in Colombia three years ago. I readily agreed with Dick’s conclusion that if we were causing neither temperature change nor even CO2 concentration change the global warming scare was finished.

I began then to wonder whether the world could now throw off the absurdities of climate extremism and develop a sensible theory of climate.

In pursuit of this possibility, I told Professor Salby I was going to ask two questions. He said I could ask just one. So I asked one question in two parts.

First, I asked whether the rapid, exponential decay in carbon-14 over the six decades following the atmospheric nuclear bomb tests had any bearing on his research. He said that the decay curve for carbon-14 indicated a mean CO2 atmospheric residence time far below the several hundred years assumed in certain quarters. It supports Dick Lindzen’s estimate of a 40-year residence time, not the IPCC’s imagined 50-200 years.

Secondly, I asked whether Professor Salby had studied what drove global temperature change. He said he had not gotten to that part of the story yet.

In the past year, I said, four separate groups haf contacted me to say they were able to reproduce global temperature change to a high correlation coefficient by considering it as a function of – and, accordingly, dependent upon – the time-integral of total solar irradiance.

If these four groups are correct, and if Professor Salby is also correct, one can begin to sketch out a respectable theory of climate.

The time-integral of total solar irradiance determines changes in global mean surface temperature. Henrik Svensmark’s cosmic-ray amplification, which now has considerable support in the literature, may help to explain the mechanism.

In turn, the time integral of absolute global mean temperature determines the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. Here, the mechanism will owe much to Henry’s Law, which mandates that a warmer ocean can carry less CO2 than a colder ocean. I have never seen an attempt at a quantitative analysis of that relationship in this debate, and should be grateful if any of Anthony’s readers can point me to one.

The increased CO2 concentration as the world warms may well act as a feedback amplifying the warming, and perhaps our own CO2 emissions make a small contribution. But we are not the main cause of warmer weather, and certainly not the sole cause.

For the climate, all the world’s a stage. But, if the theory of climate that is emerging in samizdat lectures such as that of Professor Salby is correct, we are mere bit-part players, who strut and fret our hour upon the stage and then are heard no more.

The shrieking hype with which the mainstream news media bigged up Typhoon Haiyan/Yolanda, ruthlessly exploiting lost lives in their increasingly desperate search for evidence – any evidence – as ex-post-facto justification for their decades of fawning, head-banging acquiescence in the greatest fraud in history shows that they have begun to realize that their attempt at politicizing science itself is failing.

Whether they like it or not, typhoons are acts of God, not of Man.

I asked Professor Salby whether there was enough information in the temperature record to allow him to predict the future evolution of atmospheric CO2 concentration. He said he could not do that.

However, one of the groups working on the dependence of global temperature change on the time-integral of total solar irradiance makes a startling prediction: that we are in for a drop of half a Celsius degree in the next five years.

When I made a glancing reference to that research in an earlier posting, the propagandist John Abraham sneeringly offered me a $1000 bet that the fall in global temperature would not happen.

I did not respond to this characteristically jejune offer. A theory of climate is a hypothesis yet to be verified by observation, experiment and measurement. It is not yet a theorem definitively demonstrated. Explaining the difference to climate communists is likely to prove impossible. To them the Party Line, whatever it is, must be right even if it be wrong.

The group that dares to say it expects an imminent fall in global mean surface temperature does so with great courage, and in the Einsteinian spirit of describing at the outset a test by which its hypothesis may be verified.

Whether that group proves right or wrong, its approach is as consistent with the scientific method as the offering of childish bets is inconsistent with it. In science, all bets are off. As al-Haytham used to say, check and check and check again. He was not talking about checks in settlement of silly wagers.

In due course Professor Salby will publish in the reviewed literature his research on the time-integral of temperature as the driver of CO2 concentration change. So, too, I hope, will the groups working on the time-integral of total solar irradiance as the driver of temperature change.

In the meantime, I hope that those who predict a sharp, near-term fall in global temperature are wrong. Cold is a far bigger killer than warmth. Not that the climate communists of the mainstream media will ever tell you that.

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Greg Goodman
November 14, 2013 7:54 am

Ferdi: “The areas with the largest upwelling are the least sensitive for temperature changes…”
OK, so taking that on face value, and _assuming_ that there has not be any significant change in thermohaline circulation in the last century, we can put that to one side in trying to understand the CO2 SST relationship.
“That gives that the areas with the highest sensitivity for temperature changes don’t contribute anything to the atmospheric increase,…”
Where the hell to you get that from? We’re agreed that they are the most sensitive to SST, we know there has been a rise in SST over the last century, yet you then turn the facts on their collective head and assert that they don’t contribute.
I fail to see how you arrive at that conclusion, Perhaps you could explain your logic.

November 14, 2013 7:55 am

I say, this has really been a most interesting debate between some of the top guys who actually know a bit of what is going on with climate science and who understand what the data are saying. Thanks to all of you who contributed. I am so glad that at least we are all agreed here now that more carbon dioxide is better for the environment.

Anomalatys
Reply to  HenryP
November 14, 2013 7:57 am

“I am so glad that at least we are all agreed here now that more carbon dioxide is better for the environment.”
I think some of the guests here would rather choke to death before ever agreeing to basic science like that!

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 7:57 am

If the atmosphere has low emissivity (it does) and it naturally has a lapse rate (any atmosphere does, following the same equation as discussed incidentally), then the bottom of the atmosphere will naturally be warmer than the blackbody equivalent temperature of the average radiant output. The average of a sequential distribution is found around the middle. In the atmosphere, warmer is at the bottom, average near the middle, coolest at the top.

The average temperature is not what is relevant. What is relevant is what the temperature is at the (average) altitude where the radiation can successfully escape to space without being absorbed again. (The technical description for this is the altitude where the optical thickness of the atmosphere above it is of order 1.) For a radiatively-inactive atmosphere, that level is at the surface…and hence it is the surface temperature this is constrained to be at the blackbody-equivalent temperature.
As you add more and more greenhouse gases, that effective radiating level (where the temperature is constrained to be at the blackbody-equivalent temperature) rises higher and higher in the atmosphere and, hence, when you extrapolate the temperature down from that level to the surface using the adiabatic lapse rate, you get a higher and higher surface temperature.

The radiative greenhouse effect isn’t even found in a real greenhouse.

The fact that the analogy between a real greenhouse and the atmosphere is limited is already well-known, but you seriously think it is useful to learn anything on a site run by somehow who spouts utter nonsense as P*stma does? It is clear that you have borrowed your “average temperature” argument from him also, without realizing that it is nonsense.

Anomalatys
Reply to  joeldshore
November 14, 2013 9:22 am

“As you add more and more greenhouse gases, that effective radiating level rises higher and higher in the atmosphere”
Low emissivity already lets the atmosphere hold a temperature higher than the radiant blackbody equivalent. Then, the natural lapse rate already places the average at the middle. The radiant greenhouse *should be* found in a real greenhouse…it is not as simple as the analogy being limited, it is that a real greenhouse demonstrates that there is no radiative greenhouse because it should be found in a real greenhouse, but isn’t. I read this about thermodynamics and I agree with it: Heat flows from hot to cold; cold does not cause hot to become hotter; hot in warming cold does not become hotter still because it warmed the cold; only the colder temperature rises when it is heated by hot; a temperature can not heat itself. The last one is most important for the radiative greenhouse fellows. Heat output from the surface can’t come back and heat itself up some more. Heat needs a differential to flow and when there is a differential, heat flows one way only.

Gail Combs
November 14, 2013 8:22 am

Greg Goodman says: November 14, 2013 at 5:21 am
So providing ” a description of the writing” obviates the necessity to address the facts presented about the discrepancies in the ice cores?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Greg, the paper was an expansion of the statement Dr. Jaworowski gave to the US Congress as should have been obvious in the sentence I wrote.
Dr. Jaworowski had the expertise and scientific standing to be very dangerous to ‘The Cause’ He also mentioned in that statement “I published about 280 scientific papers, among them about 20 on climatic problems…..For the past 40 years I was involved in glacier studies, using snow and ice as a matrix for reconstruction of history of man-made pollution of the global atmosphere.” so he has had lots of hands on experience with ice cores.
So how was this scientist with an impressive background and tons of expertise treated?

… Zbigniew Jaworowski, past chairman of the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, a participant or chairman of some 20 Advisory Groups of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the United Nations Environmental Program, and current chair of the Scientific Committee of the Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection in Warsaw….
…This perfectly closed system, frozen in time, is a fantasy. “Liquid water is common in polar snow and ice, even at temperatures as low as -72C,” Dr. Jaworowski explains, “and we also know that in cold water, CO2 is 70 times more soluble than nitrogen and 30 times more soluble than oxygen, guaranteeing that the proportions of the various gases that remain in the trapped, ancient air will change….
The Chernobyl accident, whose contaminants he studied in the 1990s in a Scandinavian glacier, provided the most illumination.
“This ice contained extremely high radioactivity of cesium-137 from the Chernobyl fallout, more than a thousand times higher than that found in any glacier from nuclear-weapons fallout, and more than 100 times higher than found elsewhere from the Chernobyl fallout,” he explained. “This unique contamination of glacier ice revealed how particulate contaminants migrated, and also made sense of other discoveries I made during my other glacier expeditions. It convinced me that ice is not a closed system, suitable for an exact reconstruction of the composition of the past atmosphere.”
Because of the high importance of this realization, in 1994 Dr. Jaworowski, together with a team from the Norwegian Institute for Energy Technics, proposed a research project on the reliability of trace-gas determinations in the polar ice. The prospective sponsors of the research refused to fund it, claiming the research would be “immoral” if it served to undermine the foundations of climate research.
The refusal did not come as a surprise. Several years earlier, in a peer-reviewed article published by the Norwegian Polar Institute, Dr. Jaworowski criticized the methods by which CO2 levels were ascertained from ice cores, and cast doubt on the global-warming hypothesis. The institute’s director, while agreeing to publish his article, also warned Dr. Jaworowski that “this is not the way one gets research projects.” Once published, the institute came under fire, especially since the report soon sold out and was reprinted. Said one prominent critic, “this paper puts the Norsk Polarinstitutt in disrepute.” Although none of the critics faulted Dr. Jaworowski’s science, the institute nevertheless fired him to maintain its access to funding….
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=25526754-e53a-4899-84af-5d9089a5dcb6

This was a man who considered science more important than his job so I am very sure that Englebeen and crew wants him buried and forgotten. Reminds me of John Daly and a certain e-mail.
The argument on the honesty of IPCC science is continued: Why and How the IPCC Demonized CO2 with Manufactured Information

Greg Goodman
November 14, 2013 8:29 am

“The prospective sponsors of the research refused to fund it, claiming the research would be “immoral” if it served to undermine the foundations of climate research.”
Yes I recall that comment.
Gail, you may not have realised my comment was aimed at Nick who dismissed the paper as a “rant” , seeming to think that that “description of writing” was sufficient to not address issues raised.

Trick
November 14, 2013 8:30 am

Anomalatys 7:41am: “The radiative greenhouse effect isn’t even found in a real greenhouse.”
Following up on your lead from 7:26am: The atmosphere isn’t trapped in a glass enclosure farmers use for economically growing plants.
Like Stephen Wilde, you can also move toward a better theory of climate considering total energy in the free atm. parcel is not just U but U + W i.e. conserved total energy gas parcel = gas enthalpy = U+pV. You leave out same text book term as Stephen in part causing g/Cp lapse to be only an approximation (off 0% surface up to off ~10% thru earth tropopause so close to ideal and standard lapse rates).

Anomalatys
Reply to  Trick
November 14, 2013 8:36 am

Right so g/Cp gives the correct result…off 0% and less than 10%. This obviously doesn’t change anything about the implications – warmer bottom, cooler top, average middle. A glass enclosure like farmers use should have the radiative greenhouse effect, but doesn’t. Your follow to my lead is not logical.

Gail Combs
November 14, 2013 9:16 am

Greg Goodman says:
…Gail, you may not have realized my comment was aimed at Nick who dismissed the paper as a “rant”…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I did. I just wanted to make sure you (and the peanut gallery) see Dr. Jaworowski for who he was.

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 9:50 am

Anomalatys:
Again, a warmer bottom and a colder top does not save you from having to satisfy the condition that in the steady-state, the power emitted by the Earth system has to equal the power that it receives from the sun. If the atmosphere is transparent to the Earth’s radiation, then that condition will dictate the temperature at the surface and then (if there is still a significant lapse rate in this case) the temperature would fall from that value as you go up in the atmosphere.

A glass enclosure like farmers use should have the radiative greenhouse effect, but doesn’t.

If you want to test the radiative greenhouse effect, you first have to compute the magnitude of the effect that you would expect in a greenhouse enclosure. Unless you have a very tall greenhouse, the temperature difference due to the lapse rate between the bottom and the top will be very small.

Anomalatys
Reply to  joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:02 am

“the temperature would fall from that value as you go up in the atmosphere”
That is not consistent with the definition of an average and the fact that the lapse rate exists, and that the atmosphere has low emissivity. The average must be found in the middle by definition. The power output from the Earth *is equal to the power input.
“If you want to test the radiative greenhouse effect, you first have to compute the magnitude of the effect that you would expect in a greenhouse enclosure. Unless you have a very tall greenhouse, the temperature difference due to the lapse rate between the bottom and the top will be very small.”
So this admits then that the temperature difference between the bottom and average is due to the lapse rate, which is *not a radiative effect. Thanks. Besides, the maths for the radiative GHE doesn’t depend on the height on the greenhouse…this is simply an untrue assertion. It just depends on how much radiation the ceiling sends back. That effect is not observed, because a temperature can’t heat itself up with its own radiation. A real greenhouse should show the effect but doesn’t; tests to show the effect have all failed. Changing the radiative greenhouse effect to a new thing due to the lapse rate is switching the entire reference frame and physics of the radiative greenhouse.

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:03 am

Anomalatys says:

I read this about thermodynamics and I agree with it: Heat flows from hot to cold; cold does not cause hot to become hotter; hot in warming cold does not become hotter still because it warmed the cold; only the colder temperature rises when it is heated by hot; a temperature can not heat itself.

So, you’ve been fooled by someone whose blog is correctly titled “climate of sophistry” because he is a master at sophistry. No model of the greenhouse effect has heat (the net macroscopic flow of energy) being from cold to hot. They all have it from hot to cold.
However, saying that the temperature of a colder object can in no way affect the temperature of a hotter object is the kind of nonsense that appeals to people who do not have experience with steady-state calculations. The Stefan-Boltzmann Equation for heat flow between a warmer object and a colder surroundings tells you that the net rate of heat flow depends on the temperature of both the object and its surroundings. However, for the Earth in steady-state, that net rate of heat flow has to be equal to the heat that is being received from the sun. Hence, the Earth surrounded by the less cold surroundings of a radiatively-active atmosphere will have a steady-state temperature that is higher than the Earth surrounded by the coldness of space (~2.7 K). [Note that a radiatively-inactive atmosphere is the same as no atmosphere at all as far as radiative transfer is concerned…and radiation is the only way energy is communicated in any significant amount between the Earth and space.]
It is impossible to believe the Stefan-Boltzmann Equation and energy conservation and simultaneously believe the nonsense about the temperature of a colder object having no effect on the temperature of a hotter object. It simply cannot mathematically be so.

Nick Stokes
November 14, 2013 10:16 am

Gail Combs says: November 14, 2013 at 8:22 am
“Greg, the paper was an expansion of the statement Dr. Jaworowski gave to the US Congress”

There is no evidence that the Congress ever requested or received such a statement.

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:17 am

Anomalatys says:

So this admits then that the temperature difference between the bottom and average is due to the lapse rate, which is *not a radiative effect. Thanks.

I’ve never said otherwise (although saying it is “due to the lapse rate” is basically just tautology strictly speaking, maybe you mean “due to the stability limit provided by the adiabatic lapse rate”). And, I would emphasize that the adiabatic lapse rate only provides a stability limit on the actual lapse rate. It says that any lapse rate steeper than the adiabatic lapse rate is unstable to convection and that said convection lowers the lapse rate down to the adiabatic lapse rate.
However, lapse rates less steep than the adiabatic lapse rate are allowed and even occur (e.g., the Earth’s stratosphere). As you can see in this thread, there is considerable argument as to what the lapse rate would be in the rather strange limit of a completely radiatively-inactive atmosphere. But, that is for the most part irrelevant to the basic point: In the atmosphere that we actually have, with the troposphere being strongly heated from below and cooled from above (with the latter because of the radiative emission from greenhouse gases), the lapse rate is limited by the adiabatic lapse rate, i.e., the instability to convection that occurs when the lapse rate exceeds the adiabatic lapse rate.

Besides, the maths for the radiative GHE doesn’t depend on the height on the greenhouse…this is simply an untrue assertion.

And you know this how? My guess is that you know this because you have only looked at a model where convection effects are neglected. The people who claim that convection destroys the radiative greenhouse effect have a germ of truth in what they say: It tries to (and does reduce it) but in the end it cannot destroy it because the atmosphere is only unstable to convection as long as the lapse rate is greater than the adiabatic lapse rate. In the atmosphere, this means there is a significant temperature difference maintained between the surface and the effective radiating level (as is discussed in textbooks on the subject, such as the one by Ray Pierrehumbert). That is vital to the greenhouse effect…and I don’t think it would be true in any reasonably-sized greenhouse.

Anomalatys
Reply to  joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:31 am

“the lapse rate is limited by the adiabatic lapse rate”
Right, and so g/Cp works, and it works when you factor in latent heat release to it.
“And you know this how? My guess is that you know this because you have only looked at a model where convection effects are neglected.”
Because any radiative greenhouse diagram which shows the math for it, shows the math. Radiation from the ceiling/atmosphere, causing the surface to heat…however a real greenhouse doesn’t work this way, and it has never been demonstrated anywhere else, not even for the atmosphere. The lapse rate in the atmosphere gets derived without consideration of radiative effects…and radiation certainly doesn’t transfer heat backwards up the gradient. Convection of course cools the surface. Convection is prevented in a real greenhouse and this is the function of a real greenhouse. It is not the function of the supposed atmospheric radiative greenhouse. The radiative effect should be found in a real greenhouse, but isn’t. It isn’t found in other experimental tests and it isn’t found on the surface of the Earth either..

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:19 am

Nick Stokes say:

There is no evidence that the Congress ever requested or received such a statement.

Even if they had, that wouldn’t say much considering the sorts of people that Republicans have called to testify before Congress in regards to climate change.

Bart
November 14, 2013 10:28 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 14, 2013 at 5:31 am
“Conclusion: you have to separate the equations (and the integrals) for fast en slow responses…”
… in order for your preferred explanation to hold. But, it is not possible given the complete lack of phase distortion. It’s -90 degrees across the entire frequency range. You have to integrate everything. When you do, some temperature dependent process, independent of human emissions, is clearly responsible for essentially the entire observed atmospheric concentration.
rgbatduke says:
November 14, 2013 at 6:42 am
I hold your opinions and expertise in the highest regard, Dr. Brown, so please do not think that I am (necessarily) taking an opposing side in this debate. But, respectfully, Stephen has at least a partially valid point. No matter how you slice it, no matter what additional forces you invoke, boosting mass to higher altitude requires an input of energy. Where is it coming from? And, what are the implications for its loss from the source?

Bart
November 14, 2013 10:37 am

joeldshore says:
November 14, 2013 at 10:17 am
“My guess is that you know this because you have only looked at a model where convection effects are neglected.”
And, you know the converse because the authorities you rely upon have proclaimed it otherwise.
I find the problem is very like peeling the layers of an onion. There is no end to the effects and countereffects which serve to reinforce or diminish one side or the other in what are necessarily purely mental exercises.
But, we do know for a certainty that there is something seriously wrong with the current dominant paradigm, because the Earth is not responding as expected to the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere. Faced with that fundamental truth, researchers should not be so eager to assert that they know precisely what happens. We only have a few planets upon which we can base our hypotheses, and we only know one of them fairly well, and we clearly do not understand even that one.

milodonharlani
November 14, 2013 10:37 am

joeldshore says:
November 14, 2013 at 10:19 am
What do you find so objectionable about people of the sort of John Christy, Bill Gray, Richard Lindzen, Roy Spencer, Fred Singer & Willie Soon? You’d prefer maybe Al Gore, Jim Hansen, Bill McKibben, Joe Romm, Ben Santer & Gavin Schmidt? If so, why?

Nick Stokes
November 14, 2013 10:39 am

rgbatduke says: November 14, 2013 at 6:42 am
“globally is precisely balanced by some denser gas falling to replace it, so no net energy leaves the system as all of this goes on (which is the problem I’m discussing with Nick Stokes)”

OK, let’s continue with that analogy, but say that two parcels of equal mass are exchanged – ie one is pulled up and one down, adiabatically. In isothermal air, they do both need to be pulled, because the rising one becomes cool and dense, and the falling one becomes warm and light. So work is done both ways.
Now hold them at their new level until the temperature equilibrates (not adiabatic over long time). The result is that heat has been moved down – the rising parcel moved “coolth” upward. And work was done. So in fact, cons en says that nett heat was created. If the parcels were moved by wind turbulent ke, the air lost some ke. A temperature gradient has been created. Further motion is a classic heat pump – heat is moved against the gradient.
It will continue to be enhanced until the DALR is reached. At that point, it no longer requires force to move air up or down. Heat pumping ceases, and the limit of convective stability is reached.

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:45 am

Anomalatys says:

The radiative effect should be found in a real greenhouse, but isn’t. It isn’t found in other experimental tests and it isn’t found on the surface of the Earth either..

Really? I can think of few things in the sort of science that is on too big a scale to be brought into the laboratory that have been confirmed so dramatically: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CBs09bO1wfc/UYCrTpw8eOI/AAAAAAAABCY/CCm6vAd8uZQ/s640/Earth+Emitted+Radiation+Iris+Modtran+Comparison+Shows+Scatter+Effect.png

joeldshore
November 14, 2013 10:47 am

Bart says:

“My guess is that you know this because you have only looked at a model where convection effects are neglected.”
And, you know the converse because the authorities you rely upon have proclaimed it otherwise.

No…I know it because it is dead-easy to demonstrate by adding convection to a simple model of the greenhouse effect, like “The Steel Greenhouse”.

climatereason
Editor
November 14, 2013 10:57 am

Nick Stokes
Here is the congressional hearing concerned Dr. Jaworowski. It is a matter of record in the Congress diary that this happened.
http://www.warwickhughes.com/icecore/
I make no comment on the credibility of the statement he made at this point
tonyb

November 14, 2013 10:59 am

Greg Goodman says:
November 14, 2013 at 7:54 am
Ferdi: “The areas with the largest upwelling are the least sensitive for temperature changes…”
The areas with the largest upwelling are the Pacific equatorial ocean, with most upwelling near the South American coast and spreading westward with its highest emissions around the Galapagos islands en further. But here the pCO2 is at maximum, thus the influence of some extra temperature increase is minimal (around 5%).
“That gives that the areas with the highest sensitivity for temperature changes don’t contribute anything to the atmospheric increase,…”
These areas are in the mid-latitudes, where the summer/winter temperature difference is large and the ocean surface works as a CO2 source in summer and a CO2 sink in the other seasons. That is quite good visible in the Bermuda station data over 28 years (Fig. 4):
http://www.biogeosciences.net/9/2509/2012/bg-9-2509-2012.pdf
That also shows that the Atlantic Ocean at Bermuda is already a net sink over that period except in the summer months with temperatures above 25 C (Fig. 5). Most of the temperate to subtropic oceans are neutral to net sinks for CO2 over a year, as you can see in Feely’s papers of which I provided the link. A 1 K increase in temperature will not substantially change that. That is also visible in the total dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) trend.
Thus while the seasonal and year by year variability of temperature and CO2 is largest in the mid-to high latitudes, the net contribution of these latitudes to the increase in the atmosphere is negative. But we see a positive trend in the atmosphere. That is either from the deep upwelling in the tropics or from human emissions or a mix of both. That are completely separate processes, hardly to not influenced by temperature variations.
But as most of the variability comes from the mid-latitudes, integrating the fast temperature variations should give a negative trend for CO2…

Trick
November 14, 2013 11:01 am

Anomalatys 8:36am – “A glass enclosure like farmers use should have the radiative greenhouse effect..”
They would same as atm. if the farmer’s enclosed glass top was up at earth tropopause, so you are right, these enclosures don’t mimic the atm. radiative energy transfer physics being quite low in altitude above ground level. The thicker the glass and the stiller the air around the farmer’s enclosure the more important is radiative transfer; the thinner the glass and the greater the external wind speed then radiative transfer can be much less important than conduction, convection energy transfer modes. Energy transfer modes depend very much on the circumstances.
Farmer’s enclosure even can set up a reverse effect under the right circumstance; farmer’s enclosure suppresses warmer air around it from mixing with colder air inside (Hanson 1963, Jnl. App. Met., Vol2. p.793).
Dr. Bohren: “If you find yourself under fire for using the term GHE as shorthand for what happens in the atm. you need merely retort that your thick-walled GH is set in a very calm spot. OTOH, if you either snicker or fume when you hear or see the term GHE, you can draw sustenance from the fact that GHs are often set in windy environments and have thin walls.”
Thinking that thru, reading the cite, should enable move towards a better theory of climate.
******
Anomalatys 9:22am: “The radiant greenhouse *should be* found in a real greenhouse…a real greenhouse demonstrates that there is no radiative greenhouse…”
I merely retort my thick walled GH is set in a very calm spot so radiative transfer rules over the other two.
“…it is not as simple as the analogy being limited…Heat flows from hot to cold..”
Right. Depends on circumstances to determine the dominant energy transfer method.
Anomalatys 9:29am: “Maybe we should think of a way to harness (temperature difference with altitude).”
Can be done but not economically in atm., has been done in ocean, see OTEC.

Anomalatys
Reply to  Trick
November 14, 2013 11:20 am

“I merely retort my thick walled GH is set in a very calm spot so radiative transfer rules over the other two”
This one still doesn’t get hotter than the heat input, and so it still doesn’t support the radiative model.

November 14, 2013 11:04 am

Bart says:
November 14, 2013 at 10:28 am
… in order for your preferred explanation to hold. But, it is not possible given the complete lack of phase distortion.
It is quite difficult to see a phase distortion of a 600 years wave (as the increase of CO2 seems to be – IF temperature is the cause) over 50 years of data…

Bart
November 14, 2013 11:12 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 14, 2013 at 11:04 am
You do not need to look at 600 years to see what has happened in the last 50.

Nick Stokes
November 14, 2013 11:15 am

climatereason says: November 14, 2013 at 10:57 am
“Here is the congressional hearing concerned Dr. Jaworowski. It is a matter of record in the Congress diary”

Tony, can you point to that record? What you linked just says that Dr J wrote a statement that he anticipated (hoped?) might go to Congress. But I believe that there is no record that he appeared at a hearing, or that Congress received the statement.

Anomalatys
November 14, 2013 11:17 am

“No model of the greenhouse effect has heat (the net macroscopic flow of energy) being from cold to hot. They all have it from hot to cold.”
No, they have heat flowing into itself to raise its own temperature. Then, the math isn’t even applicable to a real greenhouse, where it should be.
“However, saying that the temperature of a colder object can in no way affect the temperature of a hotter object is the kind of nonsense that appeals to people who do not have experience with steady-state calculations”
That’s not what is being objected to there and it isn’t what the greenhouse effect is about in any case. Cold doesn’t raise the temperature of hot, in any situation, nor does a source of heat heat itself.
The heat flow between the surface and atmosphere doesn’t have to be constant. Only from surface plus atmosphere to space is it constant. Now if the atmosphere doesn’t emit then that just means it has low emissivity, and so the higher-than-blackbody equivalent temperature has a very simple explanation. If the atmosphere does emit then the total output to space is from oth surface and atmosphere. If the atmosphere absorbs more heat from the surface then it also emits more since its temperature increased. This doesn’t require the surface to become hotter.
“It is impossible to believe the Stefan-Boltzmann Equation and energy conservation and simultaneously believe the nonsense about the temperature of a colder object having no effect on the temperature of a hotter object”
That’s not the issue. The colder object can have an effect, but it doesn’t raise the temperature of the thing warming it.

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