Guest essay by Roger A. Pielke Sr.
Main Points
1. The difference in ocean heat content at two different time periods provides the global average radiative imbalance over that time [within the uncertainty of the ocean heat measurements]
2. This global average radiative imbalance is equal to the sum of the global average radiative forcings and the global average radiative feedbacks.
3. The global average radiative forcing change since 1750 is presented in the 2013 IPCC WG1 Figure SPM.5 as 2.29 [1.13 -3.33] Watts per meter squared.
4. The global average radiative imbalance is given in the 2013 IPCC report as 0.59 Watts per meter squared for 1971-2010 while for 1993-2010 it is 0.71 Watts per meter squared.
5. Thus, assuming that a large fraction of the global average radiative forcing change since 1750 is still occurring, the global average radiative feedbacks are significantly less than the global average forcings; i.e. a negative feedback.
6. Such a negative feedback is expected (since the surface temperature, and thus the loss of long wave radiation to space would increase).
7. However, the water vapor and cloud radiative feedback must also be part of the feedback. This water vapor feedback is a key claim in terms of amplifying warming due to the addition of CO2 and other human inputs of greenhouse gases. The IPCC claims that the net cloud radiative feedback is also positive.
8. The IPCC failed to report on the global average radiative feedbacks of water vapor and clouds in terms in Watts per meter squared, and how they fit into the magnitude of the diagnosed global average radiative imbalance.
9. The reason is likely that they would to avoid discussing that in recent years; at least, there has been no significant addition of water vapor into the atmosphere. Indeed, this water vapor feedback, along with any other feedbacks must be ALL accommodated within the magnitude of the global average radiative imbalance that is diagnosed from the ocean heating data!
It certainly appears that, even using the 2013 IPCC WG1 assessment estimates, that the vapor amplification of global warming is not, as least yet, occurring.
I explain and elaborate on these issues below.
Introduction
As I wrote above, the 2013 WG1 IPCC assessment of the magnitude of the radiative forcings on the climate system persists in missing discussing a key fundamental issue, namely the estimated magnitudes of
· the global annual average radiative imbalance,
· the global annual average radiative forcing
· the global annual average radiative feedbacks
and how these quantities are related to each other.
Section 1 The Fundamental Budget Equation
The relationship between the annual global average radiative forcings, radiative feedbacks and radiative imbalance can be expressed by this budget equation
Radiative Imbalance = Radiative Forcing + Radiative Feedbacks
where the units are in Joules per time period [and can be expressed as Watts per area].
The fundamental difference with this approach and that presented in papers such as Stephens et al (2012) – see http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/05-figure-1-from-stephens-et-al-2013.png
is that instead of computing the radiative imbalance as a residual as a result of large positive and negative values in the radiative flux budget with its large uncertainty as shown by Stephens et al, this metric is a robust constraint on the analysis of the radiative fluxes.
As Bob Tisdale reports, the Stephens et al value of the global average radiative imbalance [which Stephens et al calls the “surface imbalance”] is 0.70 Watts per meter squared, but with the large uncertainty of 17 Watts per meter squared!
The Stephens et al paper is
Stephens et al, 2012: An update on Earth’s energy balance in light of the latest global observations. Nature Geoscience 5, 691–696 (2012) doi:10.1038/ngeo158 http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n10/abs/ngeo1580.html [as an aside, that paper, unfortunately, makes the typical IPCC type mistake in stating that the
“Climate change is governed by changes to the global energy balance.”
Changes in the climate system on any time scale is much more than just any changes in the global energy budget as we discuss, for example, in
Pielke Sr., R., K. Beven, G. Brasseur, J. Calvert, M. Chahine, R. Dickerson, D. Entekhabi, E. Foufoula-Georgiou, H. Gupta, V. Gupta, W. Krajewski, E. Philip Krider, W. K.M. Lau, J. McDonnell, W. Rossow, J. Schaake, J. Smith, S. Sorooshian, and E. Wood, 2009: Climate change: The need to consider human forcings besides greenhouse gases. Eos, Vol. 90, No. 45, 10 November 2009, 413. Copyright (2009) American Geophysical Union. http://pielkeclimatesci.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/r-354.pdf
Section 2 The Radiative Imbalance
With respect to the Radiative Imbalance, as I proposed in my paper
Pielke Sr., R.A., 2003: Heat storage within the Earth system. Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 84, 331- 335.
http://pielkeclimatesci.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/r-247.pdf
the radiative imbalance can be estimated based on the changes in the ocean heat content. As written in
Levitus, S., et al. (2012), World ocean heat content and thermosteric sea level change (0-2000), 1955-2010, Geophys. Res. Lett.,doi:10.1029/2012GL051106
“The world ocean accounts for approximately 90% of the warming of the earth system that has occurred since 1955”
Jim Hansen had provided his value of the heating rate in a communication to me in 2005 http://pielkeclimatesci.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/1116592hansen.pdf]
as
The Willis et al. measured heat storage of 0.62 W/m2 refers to the decadal mean for the upper 750 m of the ocean. Our simulated 1993-2003 heat storage rate was 0.6 W/m2 in the upper 750 m of the ocean. The decadal mean planetary energy imbalance, 0.75 W/m2 , includes heat storage in the deeper ocean and energy used to melt ice and warm the air and land. 0.85 W/m2 is the imbalance at the end of the decade.”
More recent information, with respect to the Radiative Imbalance is reported in
Levitus, S., et al. (2012), World ocean heat content and thermosteric sea level change (0-2000), 1955-2010, Geophys. Res. Lett.,doi:10.1029/2012GL051106
“The heat content of the world ocean for the 0-2000 m layer increased by 24.0×1022 J corresponding to a rate of 0.39 Wm-2 (per unit area of the world ocean)…. This warming rate corresponds to a rate of 0.27 Wm-2 per unit area of earth’s surface.”
The IPCC WG1 Chapter 3 [http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5_WGI-12Doc2b_FinalDraft_Chapter03.pdf]
writes
“It is virtually certain that Earth has gained substantial energy from 1971–2010 — the estimated increase in energy inventory between 1971 and 2010 is 274 [196 to 351] ZJ (1 ZJ = 1021 J), with a rate of 213 TW from a linear fit to the annual values over that time period (Box 3.1, Figure 1). Ocean warming dominates the total energy change inventory, accounting for roughly 93% on average from 1971–2010. Melting ice (including Arctic sea ice, ice sheets, and glaciers) accounts for 3% of the total, and warming of the continents 3%. Warming of the atmosphere makes up the remaining 1%. The 1971–2010 estimated rate of oceanic energy gain is 199 TW from a linear fit to data over that time period, implying a mean heat flux of 0.55 W m–2 across the global ocean surface area. Earth’s net estimated energy increase from 1993–2010 is 163 [127 to 201] ZJ with a trend estimate of 275 TW. The ocean portion of the trend for 1993–2010 is 257 TW, equivalent to a mean heat flux into the ocean of 0.71 W m–2.”
Using the 93% dominance of the ocean in this heating, then from the 2013 IPCC report
· 1971-2010 the total earth surface heating rate is 0.59 Watts per meter squared
· 1993-2010 it is 0.71 Watts per meter squared.
Of course, there is the question as to whether the Levitus et al 2012 calculation below 700 meters before 2005 is even robust. The 2013 IPCC WG1 Chapter 3 report writes [highlight added] – http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5_WGI-12Doc2b_FinalDraft_Chapter03.pdf
“Below 700 m data coverage is too sparse to produce annual global ocean heat content estimates prior to about 2005, but from 2005–2010 and 0–1500 m the global ocean is warming (von Schuckmann and Le Traon, 2011). Five-year running mean estimates yield a 700–2000 m global ocean heat content trend from 1957 to 2009 (Figure 3.2b) that is about 30% of that for 0–2000 m over the length of the record (Levitus et al., 2012). Ocean heat uptake from 700–2000 m continues unabated since 2003 (Figure 3.2b); as a result, ocean heat content from 0–2000 m shows less slowing after 2003 than does 0–700 m heat content (Levitus et al., 2012). “
Remarkably, the IPCC report persists in making claims regarding deeper ocean heating before 2005. But that is a subject for another time.
Section 3 The Radiative Forcing
Using even the largest value [the 0.85 W/me value for the Radiative Imbalance from Jim Hansen], however, it is still significantly less than the total anthropogenic change in radiative forcing since 1750 reported by the IPCC.
In Figure SPM.5 in the 2013 IPCC WG, they report that the total anthropogenic change in radiative forcing since 1750 is
2.29 [1.13 -3.33] Watts per meter squared.
They write that
“The largest contribution to total radiative forcing is caused by the increase in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 since 1750.”
and
“The total anthropogenic RF for 2011 relative to 1750 is 2.29 [1.13 to 3.33] W m−2 (see Figure SPM.5), and it has increased more rapidly since 1970 than during prior decades.”
Unfortunately, the IPCC did not provide an estimate of the CURRENT “total anthropogenic RF”.
Some of this forcing would have been accommodated with warming of the climate system since 1750. When I served on the NRC (2005) assessment [http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309095069/html/], one of my colleagues on the Committee (V. Ramanthan), when I asked him this question, he said that perhaps 20% of the CO2 radiative forcing was already equilibrated to. In any case, the CURRENT forcing must be somewhat less, but not probably by more than 20% or so.
Regardless, unless the IPCC estimates of the Radiative Forcing are too positive, this means that the
Radiative Imbalance < Radiative Forcing.
4. Radiative Feedbacks
However, while the warming of the climate system is a negative radiative feedback, and thus we should expect this part to be a negative feedback [since a surface temperature results in an increase of the outgoing long wave radiation to space], added water vapor, if it is there, would be a positive radiative feedback.
In my book
Cotton, W.R. and R.A. Pielke Sr., 2007: Human impacts on weather and climate, Cambridge University Press, 330 pp
in Section 8.2.8 we reported on an analysis of the water vapor feedback by Norm Woods using column assessments for three selected vertical soundings. Norm showed that the positive significant radiative forcing from even modest (e.g. 5% increase is atmospheric water vapor) is significant. [See also http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2006/05/05/co2h2o/].
Norm Woods’s further analysis can be read on this posts
http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/further-analysis-of-radiatve-forcing-by-norm-woods/
Among the conclusions for the representative soundings Norm used are
“with the tropical sounding ….adding 5% more water vapor, results in a 3.88 Watts per meter squared increase in the downwelling longwave flux. In contrast, due to the much lower atmospheric concentrations of water vapor in the subarctic winter sounding, the change from a zero concentration to its current value results in an increase of 116.46 Watts per meter squared, while adding 5% to the current value results in a 0.70 Watts per meter squared increase.”
and
“The effect of even small increases in water vapor content of the atmosphere in the tropics has a much larger effect on the downwelling fluxes, than does a significant increase of the CO2 concentrations.”
However, there appears to be no long trend in atmospheric water vapor! This can be seen in the latest analysis we have;
Vonder Haar, T. H., J. L. Bytheway, and J. M. Forsythe (2012), Weather and climate analyses using improved global water vapor observations, Geophys. Res. Lett., 39, L15802, doi:10.1029/2012GL052094. [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012GL052094/abstract]
Although they write in the paper
“at this time, we can neither prove nor disprove a robust trend in the global water vapor data.”
just the difficulty in showing a positive trend suggests a very muted water vapor feedback at most.
The figure from their paper with respect to this analysis is shown below
The 2013 IPCC WG1 SPM report states with respect to the radiative feedbacks that
“The net feedback from the combined effect of changes in water vapour, and differences between atmospheric and surface warming is extremely likely positive and therefore amplifies changes in climate. The net radiative feedback due to all cloud types combined is likely positive. Uncertainty in the sign and magnitude of the cloud feedback is due primarily to continuing uncertainty in the impact of warming on low clouds.” [http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5SPM_Approved27Sep2013.pdf]
They also write, in contrast to what is seen in the Vonderhaar et al 2012 paper,
“Anthropogenic influences have contributed to observed increases in atmospheric moisture content in the atmosphere (medium confidence)”
This report also write that
“The rate and magnitude of global climate change is determined by radiative forcing, climate feedbacks and the storage of energy by the climate system.”
Of course the report also fails to distinguish “global climate change” [which is much more than just the global average radiative forcings and feedbacks; a mistake also made in Stephens et al 2012].
The IPCC WG1 report discuss the reduced heating and Radiative Forcing in recent years as follows
“The observed reduction in surface warming trend over the period 1998–2012 as compared to the period 1951–2012, is due in roughly equal measure to a reduced trend in radiative forcing and a cooling contribution from internal variability, which includes a possible redistribution of heat within the ocean (medium confidence). The reduced trend in radiative forcing is primarily due to volcanic eruptions and the timing of the downward phase of the 11-year solar cycle. However, there is low confidence in quantifying the role of changes in radiative forcing in causing the reduced warming trend. There is medium confidence that internal decadal variability causes to a substantial degree the difference between observations and the simulations; the latter are not expected to reproduce the timing of internal variability. There may also be a contribution from forcing inadequacies and, in some models, an overestimate of the response to increasing greenhouse gas and other anthropogenic forcing (dominated by the effects of aerosols)…”
Nowhere in this discussion, except implicitly in the mention of internal variability, is the role of the radiative feedbacks including the role of water vapor and clouds presented.
5. The IPCC Failure
The IPCC report has failed to report on the implications of the real world radiative imbalance being significantly smaller than the radiative forcing. This means not only that the net radiative feedbacks must be negative, but they failed to document the magnitude in Watts per meter squared of the contributions to positive feedbacks from surface warming, and from atmospheric water vapor and clouds.
These must be smaller than what the IPCC models are producing.
One clear conclusion from their failure is that the climate system has larger variations in the Radiative Imbalance, Forcing and Feedbacks than is predicted by the model and accepted in the 2013 IPCC assessment report. Judy Curry David Douglass, Roy Spencer, Bob Tisdale, Anastasios Tsonis, Marcia Wyatt and others have been pioneers in advocating this perspective, and the failure in the SPM of the 2013 IPCC WG1 report to discuss this issue is a major failing of the assessment.
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Genghis.
I’m afraid you don’t have a clue despite my best efforts.
Just note that Roger’s findings appear to me to support my proposition rather than yours. If not, I invite his comments because if I’m wrong I’d like to know sooner rather than later.
Here and at my site I have raised the point that Rspecific for a non – Ideal Gas is variable and on the opposite side of the relevant Gas Law equation to Volume (V) so that changes in atmospheric composition can increase V without an increase in Temperature (T).
If that is not correct let someone say so and show it.
I have other things to do with my life if I am following a blind alley.
To go along with all the discussion of outgoing longwave radiation, here are some graphs:
graph1 [past 40 years, OLR]
graph2 [OLR vs T, from 1979]
source [click on ‘global temperatures’ tab]
Stephen Wilde says:
“I have other things to do with my life if I am following a blind alley.”
Your basic circulation model and expansion of the earths atmosphere is correct. Just look at the diagram of the Hadley cells. The fact that air cools as it expands helps your basic theory, which just happens to be good old fashioned Meteorology 101 which the warmists have conveniently neglected.
Water Vapor lowers the Lapse Rate.
Stephen Wilde says:
October 22, 2013 at 2:09 pm
Here and at my site I have raised the point that Rspecific for a non – Ideal Gas is variable and on the opposite side of the relevant Gas Law equation to Volume (V) so that changes in atmospheric composition can increase V without an increase in Temperature (T).
What makes you think that air at pressures below 1atm isn’t very well approximated by the Ideal Gas Law?
In any case the Specific gas constant is not some correction for non-ideality rather it is an alternative value expressed in terms of mass (hence the use of specific, as in specific gravity) rather than molar quantities (J/K.kg vs J/K.mole)
If that is not correct let someone say so and show it.
I have other things to do with my life if I am following a blind alley.
OK!
Genghis.
Thanks for that but why do you not follow through to the logical implications ?
If the atmosphere can expand in response to composition changes without affecting T then AGW theory fails because it cuts the ground away completely yet you still seem to accept the role of GHGs and ignore the role of mass within a gravitational field.
Anyway, I’ve put the issue in play and must await verification or not as the case may be.
Box of Rocks says:
“So you are saying that the water after is is vaporized and turned into steam is responsible for warming the ceramic sphere?”
Yes.
“So how can something that is less than 1% of a control volume release enough energy (at the right wavelength) to impart enough energy in the remaining 99% to either maintains it temperature or in fact increase it.”
It doesn’t have anything to do with ‘volume’ it is all about watts/meter^2.
“Remember – Heat capacity, or thermal capacity, is the measurable physical quantity that specifies the amount of heat energy required to change the temperature of an object or body by a given amount. …. the specific heat of water is 1 BTU/(F°·lb).”
Sure but heat capacity has very little to do with ‘temperature.”
“So if we have a control volume of 1 foot square … How much energy will it loose to it’s surrounding if it cools one degree F?”
Of course it depends on the specific heat. I seem to be missing your point.
“So, Ghengis, what you are saying is that minute amount of CO2 in that 1 square foot can convert enough radiation from one wavelength to another to prevent the CV from cooling, right?”
Yes. It is dependent on the watts going in. You seem to be confusing the GHG’s with a heat source. The heat source is the surface of the ocean that is radiating at 430 Watts/M^2. If there is nothing in the atmosphere to thermalize that radiation, there is going to be very little converted to warming the atmosphere.
JQuip and all,
Not sure I followed all that, but my point remains. ALL the GCM’s use increased water vapor to amplify the effect of increasing CO2 to produce their large Climate Sensitivities of 2, 3, and even 4 or more degrees C increase from doubled CO2. Right now NASA is sitting on a study called NVAP-M which will show no such increase, hence kicking the legs out from under the GCM’s.
I think this should be shouted from the rooftops, in fact I am going upstairs right now…
Michael Moon says:
October 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm
Thank God the data are from Langley rather than Goddard, where Gavin would strangle them in their cradle, or so mutilate them that their mother wouldn’t recognize them.
https://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/news/nvap-m
But, you’re right. It would require a new administration for the conclusions from the data ever to see the light of day.
Stephen Wilde says:
“If the atmosphere can expand in response to composition changes without affecting T then AGW theory fails because it cuts the ground away completely yet you still seem to accept the role of GHGs and ignore the role of mass within a gravitational field.”
No, the expanding atmosphere (due to convection) doesn’t affect the ENERGY in the system, that stays the same. What is does is lower the surface temperature, which invalidates the AGW theory.
The role of mass in the gravitational field provides the limits to the Lapse Rate. The highest the lapse rate can be is 9.8C/km. Where do you think the 9.8 comes from? I will give you a clue “g’ : )
If there was no water vapor in the atmosphere to lower the lapse rate down to 6.5˚C (the environmental lapse rate) or even less than 5˚C/km in an updraft, the surface temperature would be much, much higher.
The Global Warming Theory simply got the sign of the water feedback forcing wrong. Increasing levels of GHG’s will increase the ‘RATE’ of warming, but at the same time as it gets warmer increasing levels of Water Vapor will decrease the “Rate’ of warming.
The biggest problem we have right now is measuring any of these tiny changes, which by itself invalidates the AGW theory : ) And confirms the Meteorology 101 theory.
Ghengis – when a CO2 emits radiation that is a specific wavelength that allows that energy to increase the internal energy of another object, then it is fact an “energy source”.
Heat capacity tell us “how much” energy is required! Then given time, the area under the curve can be calculated….
Yes. It is dependent on the watts going in. You seem to be confusing the GHG’s with a heat source. The heat source is the surface of the ocean that is radiating at 430 Watts/M^2. If there is nothing in the atmosphere to thermalize that radiation, there is going to be very little converted to warming the atmosphere.
Ghengis –
**IF** I understand you and the whole CO2 is evil AGW, greenhouse gas theory, then it is the CO2 molecule along with the other GHGs that in fact thermailze this primary radiation and produce ‘secondary’ radiation that adds heat and energy back into the system that would otherwise be lost into space – before it is radiated into space.
The question is now is not *IF*, the question is *HOW MUCH*? Saying that the ocean gives off – 430 Watts/M^2 is fine. Understand that that radiation field is falling of at a high rate on the order of magnitude of the 4th power so say at 10000 ft asl, the same amount of energy is spread out over a much larger area and the ability of the radiation to do “work” is greatly diminished.
Furthermore, understand that a tiny fraction of the a control volume has to capture the radiation and then re-radiate at a different wavelength leads to the question of how much.
For that 1% to keep the other 99% warm, requires a lot of work….
Box of Rocks says:
“Heat capacity tell us “how much” energy is required! Then given time, the area under the curve can be calculated….”
Of course, and your point is?
Box of Rocks says:
October 22, 2013 at 4:14 pm
“Understand that that radiation field is falling of at a high rate on the order of magnitude of the 4th power so say at 10000 ft asl, the same amount of energy is spread out over a much larger area ”
The area is not really significantly larger. Even the top of the atmosphere at ~100km or so forms a sphere not significantly greater than the surface area of the earth. Earth radius 6,370km TOA radius 6,470 km. The atmosphere is a remarkably thin skin. Imagine a hen’s egg with a proportional atmosphere. It would be about double the thickness of the eggshell. This fact in it self made me into an environmentalist-leaning person, although I don’t accept the CAGW alarm.
Box of Rocks says:
” **IF** I understand you and the whole CO2 is evil AGW, greenhouse gas theory, then it is the CO2 molecule along with the other GHGs that in fact thermailze this primary radiation and produce ‘secondary’ radiation that adds heat and energy back into the system that would otherwise be lost into space – before it is radiated into space.”
No you don’t understand it correctly. Think of the greenhouse gasses as an electric heating coil immersed in a water tank. The electric heater (CO2) warms the water at 430 watts an hour, the temperature of the water will rise until it is radiating exactly the same watts that it is absorbing.
The temperature of the water can’t be determined, solely by specific heat capacity and the electric heaters wattage. Do you understand why?
“The question is now is not *IF*, the question is *HOW MUCH*? Saying that the ocean gives off – 430 Watts/M^2 is fine. Understand that that radiation field is falling of at a high rate on the order of magnitude of the 4th power so say at 10000 ft asl, the same amount of energy is spread out over a much larger area and the ability of the radiation to do “work” is greatly diminished.”
That is THE question isn’t it, and that is what the climate models have tried and failed to answer, because, like you they are solely focused on watts in and specific heat content., Where you differ from the Warmists is that their feedbacks are positive while yours are negative.”
“Furthermore, understand that a tiny fraction of the a control volume has to capture the radiation and then re-radiate at a different wavelength leads to the question of how much.”
Curious, you continue to persist with the idea that the size of the heating element determines the amount of heating. it doesn’t. What it does affect is the ‘rate’ of heating. Let me try another example. Lets say there are no radiative gases in the atmosphere and we have a 100 watt radiative only heat source. The atmosphere will never heat up. Now lets introduce just enough radiative gases into the atmosphere to provide a one atom thick layer that is enough to make the atmosphere opaque to the radiation and now the atmosphere will heat up at a rate of 100 watts.
Now lets double the GHG’s in the atmosphere and guess what? The atmosphere is heating up now at 200 watts, double it again and it goes up to 300 watts, this process continues until the temperature nears equilibrium or a steady state, once it reaches equilibrium we can determine the temperature with the S-B Law. At equilibrium the atmosphere is radiating exactly the same amount of energy it is absorbing. At equilibrium you can add or subtract any amount of GHG’s and the temperature will stay the same.
There is a little bit of sophistry going on here though. We aren’t adding any energy to the system by adding GHG’s we are just adding layers and measuring each layer (flux) again. Double counting. It is an accounting trick, debits have to equal credits (kind of like how the Fed creates money). But this is how physicists figure out the ‘rate’ of heating, it tells them nothing about the temperature of the system.
Don’t confuse the “rate’ of heating with the energy content or the temperature. They are entirely different concepts. Just like the ‘temperature’ anomalies have very little (nothing actually) to do with the actual temperature. They are simply indicative of a change in the system.
I will let you in on a little secret, as the data gathering gets better the temperature anomalies will decrease. The earths total energy budget is static but energy does flow around it and tracking that energy flow is a bugger : )
For that 1% to keep the other 99% warm, requires a lot of work….
Genghis says:
October 22, 2013 at 3:24 pm
You started by saying ‘No’ but then went on to paraphrase my contentions.
Water is indeed a negative rather than positive feedback but that isn’t the point I was making.
My point is that whatever compositional variations occur then if they don’t affect mass the volume of the atmosphere changes to negate the thermal effect that would otherwise have occurred.
That applies whether there is a water cycle or not. The water cycle just helps it along so that less change in volume is necessary.
Radiative (AGW) theory always requires a rise in surface temperature to cause any increase in atmospheric volume. That is where they are stuck in a logical impasse.
The Gas Laws do not require a rise in surface temperature because Rspecific can vary in parallel with V leaving T unchanged.
That is the complete answer to AGW theory unless someone can confirm that I am wrong in my interpretation of the Gas Laws.
Ghengis.
You seem to think that GHGs are needed to warm an atmosphere.
In fact an atmosphere is warmed by conduction at the surface and the energy rises through the column by convection.
GHGs not needed. Only mass irradiated from an external source.
If the gas is radiatively inert then it is ALL about conduction and convection.
If the gas has radiative capability then that supplements conduction and convection by increasing the atmospheric volume that can be achieved.
You make a lot of sound points but then lose logical coherence because you don’t have all the relevant components in your mind yet.
Gary Pearse said:
“The area is not really significantly larger”
It isn’t the area that matters, it is the available extra volume for the molecules to disperse into combined with the strength of the gravitational field which determines how fast density decreases with height.
Its no good applying the rules relating to solids to gases.
Phil said:
“In any case the Specific gas constant is not some correction for non-ideality rather it is an alternative value expressed in terms of mass (hence the use of specific, as in specific gravity) rather than molar quantities (J/K.kg vs J/K.mole)”
That is more to the point of the issue so I need to consider it carefully.
If the specific gas constant is not a correction for non-ideality please explain why it is only applied for non-Ideal Gases.
If the use of ‘specific’ is simply an alternative value expressed in terms of mass then why does the equation also contain m ?
PV = nRT = mRspecificT
n (molar quantities) has already been replaced by (m) mass so why express R differently as well ?
In the real world, different molecules with the same mass do behave differently within a gravitational field so how else do the Gas Laws deal with that ?
It is clear that specific heat is also involved as well as mass:
“Another important relationship comes from thermodynamics. Mayer’s relation relates the specific gas constant to the specific heats for a calorically perfect gas and a thermally perfect gas.
Rspecific = cp – cv
where cp is the specific heat for a constant pressure and cv is the specific heat for a constant volume”
from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_constant#Specific_gas_constant
and of course radiative and absorption capabilities would affect specific heat.
So it cannot be right that “the use of ‘specific’ is simply an alternative value expressed in terms of mass” since it clearly adjusts for characteristics other than mass, in particular, specific heat.
The fact is that in so far as the ‘specific’ aspect is concerned it does adjust the gas constant for different specific heats in the same mass which is why one need not change T but instead V changes.
To summarise.
Rspecific adjusts the gravitational constant R to take account of the differing specific heats of different non-Ideal Gases or different mixtures of non-Ideal Gases.
That specific heat is set by molecular characteristics other than mass such as the radiative and absorption capabilities of GHGs.
Specific heat alters pressure and volume in a gas independently of the strength of the gravitational field or the amount of mass in the molecule.
The adjustment of R to Rspecific to take account of variable specific heats means that different mixtures of non Ideal Gases affect atmospheric Volume and not atmospheric Temperature.
In the term
PV = mRspecificT
P is fixed because whatever the volume of an atmosphere the surface pressure remains the same.
m is fixed because variations in the amount of GHGs do not significantly affect total atmospheric mass.
T is limited by the amount of energy coming in because it is not permitted for energy out to differ from energy in without the atmosphere being lost.
That leaves only Rspecific and Volume as the available variables when the specific heats of non-Ideal Gases vary from those of an Ideal Gas. Since they are on opposite sides of the equation they can change freely relative to one another without affecting the other terms or breaching the Gas Laws.
Adding GHGs alters Rspecific and V but not T.
Stephen Wilde says:
“In the term
PV = mRspecificT
P is fixed because whatever the volume of an atmosphere the surface pressure remains the same.”
Not true at all. Again look at images of a hurricane, the top of the hurricane rises miles into the stratosphere and the base of the Hurricane has the lowest pressures around. A storm is nothing but a mountain of air and it is always accompanied by the lowest pressures.
“m is fixed because variations in the amount of GHGs do not significantly affect total atmospheric mass.”
Water vapor, really screws around with the mass. Humid air is less dense than dry air, but has a higher specific heat.
“T is limited by the amount of energy coming in because it is not permitted for energy out to differ from energy in without the atmosphere being lost.”
You are confusing temperature with energy. Temperature only has meaning at equilibrium and the system is decidedly not in equilibrium.
“That leaves only Rspecific and Volume as the available variables when the specific heats of non-Ideal Gases vary from those of an Ideal Gas. Since they are on opposite sides of the equation they can change freely relative to one another without affecting the other terms or breaching the Gas Laws.”
Nope, they are all variables. That is why this is such a hard problem. If it was only Rspecific = Volume, that is trivial (and obviously false)
“Adding GHGs alters Rspecific and V but not T.”
Adding GHG’s primarily restricts the flow of energy through the atmosphere. Their effect can be most easily seen by changes in temperature.
Think of temperature as the height of water in a stream. If you place a rock (GHG) in the stream it raises the height (temperature) of the water on the upstream side, while immediately behind the rock the water is lower. If you like you could pile a lot of rocks in the stream and really raise the level of the water. That by the way is the AGW theory in a nutshell : ) If it weren’t for that pesky H2O molecule they would be 100% correct.
Stephen Wilde says:
October 23, 2013 at 3:18 am
Phil said:
“In any case the Specific gas constant is not some correction for non-ideality rather it is an alternative value expressed in terms of mass (hence the use of specific, as in specific gravity) rather than molar quantities (J/K.kg vs J/K.mole)”
That is more to the point of the issue so I need to consider it carefully.
If the specific gas constant is not a correction for non-ideality please explain why it is only applied for non-Ideal Gases.
It isn’t, engineers frequently used the mass based equations for ideal gases.
If the use of ‘specific’ is simply an alternative value expressed in terms of mass then why does the equation also contain m ?
PV = nRT = mRspecificT
n (molar quantities) has already been replaced by (m) mass so why express R differently as well?
Because the units of the equation must match!
nRT= mole.(J/K mole).K = J
mRspecT= kg.(J/K kg).K= J
Similarly for specific heat which is the heat capacity per unit mass as opposed to the molar heat capacity which is per mole. Chemists tend to use the latter and engineers the former, nothing to do with non-ideality.
So it cannot be right that “the use of ‘specific’ is simply an alternative value expressed in terms of mass” since it clearly adjusts for characteristics other than mass, in particular, specific heat.
That is exactly what the qualifier ‘specific’ is used for, to indicate a mass based quantity rather than a molar quantity: E.g. specific enthalpy, specific entropy, etc.
Ghengis.
Average global surface pressure does not change. Storms are just local or regional disturbances around the average.
Total atmospheric mass does not change significantly from water vapour variations. Atmospheric humidity is remarkably stable.
Temperature cannot be higher or lower than that required by the S-B equation after deducting the energy exchange between surface and air which holds the air off the ground. Temperature is kinetic energy. Any kinetic energy not required to match outgoing with incoming AND to hold up the atmosphere goes straight to potential energy to change the volume of the atmosphere.
P, T and m are fixed.
Rspecific and V are variable.
The water analogy doesn’t work because water is not a gas.
In so far as GHGs slow down the rate of energy flow the Gas Law requires that any additional energy in the system goes to potential energy via expansion which does not change Temperature.
GHGs cause an atmospheric response that reaches a new equilibrium with Volume and not with Temperature.
Only changes in Mass, Gravity and Insolation reach a new equilibrium with Temperature.
The ‘specific’ part of Rspecific only affects Volume. The Gas Law requires it.
The radiation enthusiasts have treated Rspecific as a universal constant like R instead of as a variable.
They didn’t realise that the radiation flux is only a by product of mechanical processes.
Stephen Wilde says:
You seem to think that GHGs are needed to warm an atmosphere.
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Yes and No : ) GHG’s create the temperature gradient and may increase the total amount of energy in the atmosphere. Without GHG’s the Atmosphere would be 5˚C and isothermal. With GHG’s the temperature 6 feet above the surface is 15˚C and has a lapse rate. I don’t know if there is less energy or more energy in the atmosphere because of GHG’s, it is probably a wash.
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In fact an atmosphere is warmed by conduction at the surface and the energy rises through the column by convection.
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True, but do you understand that the atmosphere in equilibrium would be 5˚C and isothermal?
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GHGs not needed. Only mass irradiated from an external source.
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Without GHG’s the surface temperature would be very cold.
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If the gas is radiatively inert then it is ALL about conduction and convection.
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Of course : )
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If the gas has radiative capability then that supplements conduction and convection by increasing the atmospheric volume that can be achieved.
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Total volume yes, but not the changes in volume that is one of the things H20 does.
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You make a lot of sound points but then lose logical coherence because you don’t have all the relevant components in your mind yet.
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True and I also suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. Luckily I enjoy being wrong and learning too : )
“GHG’s create the temperature gradient ”
The decline in density with height causes the gradient. GHGs can distort it but changes elsewhere negate the effect over the atmosphere as a whole.
“do you understand that the atmosphere in equilibrium would be 5˚C and isothermal”
Not possible due to the density gradient with height.
Your points and my replies are getting repetitive so no point engaging further.
Stephen Wilde says:
Average global surface pressure does not change. Storms are just local or regional disturbances around the average.
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Of course the ‘average’ doesn’t change, by definition.
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Total atmospheric mass does not change significantly from water vapour variations. Atmospheric humidity is remarkably stable.
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Of course the system is remarkably stable. The Sun has been roasting the Earth on a spit for a few billion years.
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Temperature cannot be higher or lower than that required by the S-B equation after deducting the energy exchange between surface and air which holds the air off the ground. Temperature is kinetic energy. Any kinetic energy not required to match outgoing with incoming AND to hold up the atmosphere goes straight to potential energy to change the volume of the atmosphere.
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Almost total nonsense. Yes temperature is kinetic energy, but the S-B law is a radiation law. Do you understand the difference between radiation and kinetic energy? The S-B Law only applies in equilibrium situations and the atmosphere is decidedly not in equilibrium.
I used to agree with you about kinetic and potential energy, until I got slapped down by Professor Brown from Duke (thank you). My example was a single atom that was bouncing up and down like a ball with all kinetic energy at the bottom and all potential energy at the top. simple enough right? Yeah, but wrong. In an actual column of air with a bunch of balls all of the balls will quickly have the same kinetic and potential energy, Isothermal in other words. T is the average of Kinetic + Potential.
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P, T and m are fixed.
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Nope they are decidedly unfixed variables.
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The water analogy doesn’t work because water is not a gas.
In so far as GHGs slow down the rate of energy flow the Gas Law requires that any additional energy in the system goes to potential energy via expansion which does not change Temperature.
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EXPANSION LOWERS THE TEMPERATURE!
Sorry for shouting and no it doesn’t go into potential energy either. The gases at the top of the atmosphere have the same energy as the gases at the bottom.
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GHGs cause an atmospheric response that reaches a new equilibrium with Volume and not with Temperature.
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You have it exactly backwards. Higher temperatures increase the volume. Volume is totally temperature dependent, g is a constant.
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Only changes in Mass, Gravity and Insolation reach a new equilibrium with Temperature.
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Huh? Mass (except when water vapor is added), Gravity and Insolation don’t change. So how can they equilibrate with a change in temperature?
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The ‘specific’ part of Rspecific only affects Volume. The Gas Law requires it.
The radiation enthusiasts have treated Rspecific as a universal constant like R instead of as a variable.
They didn’t realise that the radiation flux is only a by product of mechanical processes.
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Hmm, radiation flux is NOT a direct product of a mechanical process. If you take a hammer and hit an anvil that does not produce an increase in radiation (not much anyway), but if you spin a magnet that does create radiation. Do I need to spell that out better?