Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In the leaked version of the upcoming United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (UN IPCC) Fifth Assessment Report (AR5) Chapter 1, we find the following claims regarding volcanoes.
The forcing from stratospheric volcanic aerosols can have a large impact on the climate for some years after volcanic eruptions. Several small eruptions have caused an RF for the years 2008−2011 of −0.10 [–0.13 to –0.07] W m–2, approximately double the 1999−2002 volcanic aerosol RF.
and
The observed reduction in warming trend over the period 1998–2012 as compared to the period 1951–2012, is due in roughly equal measure to a cooling contribution from internal variability and a reduced 2 trend in radiative forcing (medium confidence). The reduced trend in radiative forcing is primarily due 3 to volcanic eruptions and the downward phase of the current solar cycle.
Now, before I discuss these claims about volcanoes, let me remind folks that regarding the climate, I’m neither a skeptic nor am I a warmist.
I am a climate heretic. I say that the current climate paradigm, that forcing determines temperature, is incorrect. I hold that changes in forcing only marginally and briefly affect the temperature. Instead, I say that a host of emergent thermostatic phenomena act
quickly to cool the planet when it is too warm, and to warm it when it is too cool.
One of the corollaries of this position is that the effects of volcanic eruptions on global climate will be very, very small. Although I’ve demonstrated this before, Anthony recently pointed me to an updated volcanic forcing database, by Sato et al. Figure 1 shows the amount of forcing from the historical volcanoes.
Figure 1. Monthly changes in radiative forcing (downwelling radiation) resulting from historical volcanic eruptions. The two large recent spikes are from El Chichon (1983) and Pinatubo (1992) eruptions. You can see the average forcing of -0.1 W/m2 from 2008-2011 mentioned by the IPCC above. These are the equilibrium forcings Fe, and not the instantaneous forcing Fi.
Note that the forcings are negative, because the eruptions inject reflective aerosols into the stratosphere. These aerosols reflect the sunlight, and the forcing is reduced. So the question is … do these fairly large known volcanic forcings actually have any effect on the global surface air temperature, and if so how much?
To answer the question, we can use linear regression to calculate the actual effect of the changes in forcing on the temperature. Figure 2 shows the HadCRUT4 monthly global surface average air temperature.
Figure 2. Monthly surface air temperatures anomalies, from the HadCRUT4 dataset. The purple line shows a centered Gaussian average with a full width at half maximum (FWHM) of 8 years.
One problem with doing this particular linear regression is that the volcanic forcing is approximately trendless, while the temperature has risen overall. We are interested in the short-term (within four years or so) changes in temperature due to the volcanoes. So what we can do to get rid of the long-term trend is to only consider the temperature variations around the average for that historical time. To do that, we subtract the Gaussian average from the actual data, leaving what are called the “residuals”:
Figure 3. Residual anomalies, after subtracting out the centered 8-year FWHM gaussian average.
As you can see, these residuals still contain all of the short-term variations, including whatever the volcanoes might or might not have done to the temperature. And as you can also see, there is little sign of the claimed cooling from the eruptions. There is certainly no obvious sign of even the largest eruptions. To verify that, here is the same temperature data overlaid on the volcanic forcing. Note the different scales on the two sides.
Figure 4. Volcanic forcing (red), with the HadCRUT4 temperature residual overlaid.
While some volcanoes line up with temperature changes, some show increases after the eruptions. In addition, the largest eruptions don’t seem correlated with proportionately large drops in temperatures.
So now we can start looking at how much the volcanic forcing is actually affecting the temperature. The raw linear regression yields the following results.
R^2 = 0.01 (a measure from zero to one of how much effect the volcanoes have on temperature) "p" value of R^2 = 0.03 (a measure from zero to one how likely it is that the results occurred by chance) (adjusted for autocorrelation). Trend = 0.04°C per W/m2, OR 0.13°C per doubling of CO2 (how much the temperature varies with the volcanic forcing) "p" value of the TREND = 0.02 (a measure from zero to one how likely it is that the results occurred by chance) (adjusted for autocorrelation).
So … what does that mean? Well, it’s a most interesting and unusual result. It strongly confirms a very tiny effect. I don’t encounter that very often in climate science. It simultaneously says that yes, volcanoes do affect the temperature … and yet, the effect is vanishingly small—only about a tenth of a degree per doubling of CO2.
Can we improve on that result? Yes, although not a whole lot. As our estimate improves, we’d expect a better R^2 and a larger trend. To do this, we note that we wouldn’t expect to find an instantaneous effect from the eruptions. It takes time for the land and ocean to heat and cool. So we’d expect a lagged effect. To investigate that, we can calculate the R^2 for a variety of time lags. I usually include negative lags as well to make sure I’m looking at a real phenomenon. Here’s the result:
Figure 5. Analysis of the effects of lagging the results of the volcanic forcing.
That’s a lovely result, sharply peaked. It shows that as expected, after a volcano, it takes about seven-eight months for the maximum effects to be felt.
Including the lag, of course, gives us new results for the linear regress, viz:
R^2 = 0.03 [previously 0.01] "p" value of R^2 = 0.02 (adjusted for autocorrelation) [previously 0.03] Trend = 0.05°C per W/m2, OR 0.18 ± 0.02°C per doubling of CO2 [previously 0.13°C/doubling] "p" value of the Trend = 0.001 (adjusted for autocorrelation). [previously 0.02]
As expected, both the R^2 and the trend have increased. In addition the p-values have improved, particularly for the trend. At the end of the day, what we have is a calculated climate sensitivity (change in temperature with forcing) which is only about two-tenths of a degree per doubling of CO2.
Here are the conclusions that I can draw from this analysis.
1) The effect of volcanic eruptions is far smaller than generally assumed. Even the largest volcanoes make only a small difference in the temperature. This agrees with my eight previous analyses (see list in the Notes). For those who have questions about this current analysis, let me suggest that you read through all of my previous analyses, as this is far from my only evidence that volcanoes have very little effect on temperature.
2) As Figure 5 shows, the delay in the effects of the temperature is on the order of seven or eight months from the eruption. This is verified by a complete lagged analysis (see the Notes below). That analysis also gives the same value for the climate sensitivity, about two tenths of a degree per doubling.
3) However, this is not the whole story. The reason that the temperature change after an eruption is so small is that the effect is quickly neutralized by the homeostatic nature of the climate.
Finally, to return to the question of the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report, it says:
There is very high confidence that models reproduce the more rapid warming in the second half of the 20th century, and the cooling immediately following large volcanic eruptions.
Since there is almost no cooling that follows large volcanic eruptions … whatever the models are doing, they’re doing it wrong. You can clearly see the volcanic eruptions in the model results … but you can’t see them at all in the actual data.
The amazing thing to me is that this urban legend about volcanoes having some big effect on the global average temperature is so hard to kill. I’ve analyzed it from a host of directions, and I can’t find any substance there at all … but it is widely believed.
I ascribe this to an oddity of the climate control system … it’s invisible. For example, I’ve shown that the time of onset of tropical clouds has a huge effect on incoming solar radiation, with a change of about ten minutes in onset time being enough to counteract a doubling of CO2. But no one would ever notice such a small change.
So we can see the cooling effect of the volcanoes where it is occurring … but what we can’t see is the response of the rest of the climate system to that cooling. And so, the myth of the volcanic fingerprints stays alive, despite lots of evidence that while they have large local effects, their global effect is trivially small.
Best to all,
w.
PS—The IPCC claims that the explanation for the “pause” in warming is half due to “natural variations”, a quarter is solar, and a quarter is from volcanoes. Here’s the truly bizarre part. In the last couple decades, using round numbers, the IPCC predicted about 0.4°C of warming … which hasn’t happened. So if a quarter of that (0.1°C) is volcanoes, and the recent volcanic forcing is (by their own numbers) about 0.1 W/m2, they’re saying that the climate sensitivity is 3.7° per doubling of CO2.
Of course, if that were the case we’d have seen a drop of about 3°C from Pinatubo … and I fear that I don’t see that in the records.
They just throw out these claims … but they don’t run the numbers, and they don’t think them through to the end.
Notes and Data
For the value of the forcing, I have not used the instantaneous value of the volcanic forcing, which is called “Fi“. Instead, I’ve used the effective forcing “Fe“, which is the value of the forcing after the system has completely adjusted to the changes. As you might expect, Fi is larger than Fe. See the spreadsheet containing the data for the details.
As a result, what I have calculated here is NOT the transient climate response (TCR). It is the equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS).
For confirmation, the same result is obtained by first using the instantaneous forcing Fi to calculate the TCR, and then using the TCR to calculate the ECS.
Further confirmation comes from doing a full interative lagged analysis (not shown), using the formula for a lagged linear relationship, viz:
T2 = T1 + lambda (F2 – F1) (1 – exp(-1/tau)) + exp(-1/tau) (T1 – T0)
where T is temperature, F is forcing, lambda is the proportionality coefficient, and tau is the time constant.
That analysis gives the same result for the trend, 0.18°C/doubling of CO2. The time constant tau was also quite similar, with the best fit at 6.4 months lag between forcing and response.
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In this case it’s the Sato paper, which provides a dataset of optical thicknesses “tau”, and says:
The relation between the optical thickness and the forcings are roughly (See “Efficacy …” below):
instantaneous forcing Fi (W/m2) = -27 τ
adjusted forcing Fa (W/m2) = -25 τ
SST-fixed forcing Fs (W/m2) = -26 τ
effective forcing Fe (W/m2) = -23 τ
And “Efficacy” refers to
Hansen, J., M. Sato, R. Ruedy, L. Nazarenko, A. Lacis, G.A. Schmidt, G. Russell, et al. 2005. Efficacy of climate forcings. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D18104, doi:10.1029/2005/JD005776.
Forcing Data
For details on the volcanic forcings used, see the Sato paper, which provides a dataset of optical thicknesses “tau”, and says:
The relation between the optical thickness and the forcings are roughly (See “Efficacy …” below):
instantaneous forcing Fi (W/m2) = -27 τ
adjusted forcing Fa (W/m2) = -25 τ
SST-fixed forcing Fs (W/m2) = -26 τ
effective forcing Fe (W/m2) = -23 τ
And “Efficacy” refers to
Hansen, J., M. Sato, R. Ruedy, L. Nazarenko, A. Lacis, G.A. Schmidt, G. Russell, et al. 2005. Efficacy of climate forcings. J. Geophys. Res., 110, D18104, doi:10.1029/2005/JD005776.
(Again, remember I’m using their methods, but I’m not claiming that their methods are correct.)
Future Analyses
My next scheme is that I want to gin up some kind of prototype governing system that mimics what it seems the climate system is doing. The issue is that to keep a lagged system on course, you need to have “overshoot”. This means that when the temperature goes below average, it then goes above average, and then finally returns to the prior value. Will I ever do the analysis? Depends on whether something shinier shows up before I get to it … I would love to have about a dozen bright enthusiastic graduate students to hand out this kind of analysis to.
I also want to repeat my analysis using “stacking” of the volcanoes, but using this new data, along with some mathematical method to choose the starting points for the stacking … which turns out to be a bit more difficult than I expected.
Previous posts on the effects of the volcano.
Prediction is hard, especially of the future.
Pinatubo and the Albedo Thermostat
Dronning Maud Meets the Little Ice Age
New Data, Old Claims about Volcanoes
Volcanoes: Active, Inactive and Interactive
Stacked Volcanoes Falsify Models

milodonharlani says:
September 22, 2013 at 3:12 pm
suyts says:
September 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Wheat production, as I noted, didn’t recover for seven years, not a short time.
I wasn’t arguing for a major effect from Pinatubo, but merely pointing out that Willis overstated the case. There was at least one major crop that did show a negative response. Moreover, at the time, the agricultural literature I read attributed at least some of the drop in wheat production & lowering in yield to Pinatubo, based upon what to me seemed valid argument & compelling evidence.
==============================================================
No worries. I understand how it is. Crops are of particular interest to me relative to the greater climate discussion. So, when an opportunity presents itself to demonstrate global production has increased in spite of all of the wailing, I usually try to demonstrate it.
sadly you cant calcuate sensitivity that easily from the response to volcanoes.
Imagine if I tried to calculate the sensitivity from the drop in termperature when the sun goes down.
If you want to extract sensitivity information from the relaxation response you have to do a bit more work
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/cms-filesystem-action?file=research/weather-atmos-dynamics/wallace_held.pdf
Here is some more background. with references to papers one should read
http://ceres.larc.nasa.gov/documents/STM/2007-11/ce0711151415Boer.pdf
you need more than a back of the envelope.
The sun doesn’t go down – it goes somewhere else. It is not an impulse when the sun goes somewhere else.
Willis Eschenbach: “T2 = T1 + lambda (F2 – F1) (1 – exp(-1/tau)) + exp(-1/tau) (T1 – T0)”
As my excuse for choosing this time to pick that particular nit, all I can say is that you’ve given this formula more than once before, and each time I’ve failed to understand how it applies to the usual situation with which you’re dealing, i.e., to matching data representing averages over intervals that are potentially significant fractions of the system’s major time constant.
Rather than attempt to set out my misgivings verbally, I’ll just set forth the following code, which draws a graph that compares how I understand you do it with the way I would have thought it should be done.
I do this with some trepidation, since as I recall your formula received Paul_K’s imprimatur, but my frustration over failing to comprehend a one-line formula has overcome my embarrassment at that failure.
simple = function(x, tau, lambda, delta_t, y0= 0){
# For the simple case of a single-pole, scalar (also called “one-box”,
# i.e., dy/dt = lambda / tau * x – y / tau), linear model, boils
# linearSystemResponse() down to a two-line iteration
n = length(x);
xl = lambda * x;
y = numeric(n);
alpha = 1 – exp(-delta_t / tau);
beta = 1 – tau / delta_t * (1 – exp(-delta_t / tau));
ys = y0;
for(i in 1:n){
y[i] = ys + beta * (xl[i] – ys);
ys = ys + alpha * (xl[i] – ys);
}
y;
}
eschenbach = function(x, tau, lambda, delta_t = 1, y0 = 0){
# Implements my understanding of the implementation used at wattsupwiththat.com
# by Willis Eschenbach after discussionwith Paul_K
x = c(0, 0, x);
n = length(x);
y = numeric(n);
y[1] = 0;
y[2] = y0;
for(i in 3:n){
y[i] = y[i – 1] + lambda * (x[i] – x[i – 1]) * (1 – exp(-delta_t/tau)) +
exp(-delta_t/tau) * (y[i – 1] – y[i – 2]);
}
y[-(1:2)];
}
modelImplementationQuery = function(){
# Illustrates my difficulty with applying the Paul_K / Willis Eschenbach
# approach to characterizing a system in accordance with the “one-box” model
# when the system data take the form of averages over intervals whose
# durations may be a significant fraction of the system time constant.
x = rep(1, 5); # The stimulus’s averages over each of five successive intervals
tau = 2; # The (single) time constant of the system to be simulated
delta_t = 1; # The duration of each time interval over which x represents stimulus averages
lambda = 1; # The equilibrium ratio of the system’s response to its stimulus
t = (0:(length(x) – 1)) * delta_t; # Each interval’s start time
# Now compute the system’s response
# averages over those intervals in accordance with . . .
y1 = eschenbach(x, tau, lambda, delta_t); # the Paul_K/Eschenbach approach
#y2 = linearSystemResponse(x, -1 / tau, lambda / tau, delta_t); # my general-purpose routine
y3 = simple(x, tau, lambda, delta_t); # that routine boiled down to the first-order-scalar (“one-box”) case
# Since the data are intended to represent interval averages, plot them at
# respective intervals’ midpoints:
plot(t + delta_t / 2, y3, xlim = c(0, range(t)[2] + delta_t),
ylim = c(0, lambda), xlab = “time”, ylab = “response”);
#points(t + delta_t / 2, y2, pch = 3);
points(t + delta_t / 2, y1, col = “red”);
# Now plot the analytically determined step response:
tFine = seq(t[1], t[length(t)] + delta_t, by = diff(range(t)) / 100);
lines(tFine, lambda * (1 – exp(-tFine / tau)), lty = 3);
}
modelImplementationQuery();
Stephen Wilde:
I am writing to say that as a result of your post at September 22, 2013 at 3:56 pm I shall not be replying to anything else from you.
At September 22, 2013 at 3:02 pm
In your post I am answering you quote my saying of that
And you assert
Not true! You did NOT ask if he had a better idea. You complained that he “does not explain”.
You assert without evidence
That is arm-waving. How do you know “whatever the clouds do”?
And you say to me
I did NOT say you said that! I said that.
I said it in my post at September 22, 2013 at 3:21 pm where I objected to your changing the subject when shown to be wrong
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/22/the-eruption-over-the-ipcc-ar5/#comment-1423928
So, you changed the subject when shown to be wrong, you claim to have not said what you did say, you arm-waved to refute when presented with evidence you didn’t like, and you falsely accused me of misrepresentation. Hence, I see no purpose in further discussion with you.
Richard
milodonharlani says:
September 22, 2013 at 3:12 pm
But the fact is that wheat yield & production fell after 1991 & stayed down for most of the rest of the ’90s.
========
Scab and Vomitoxin….
November 1996
Wheat diseases becoming a national priority
TCK smut and Karnal bunt barely register a bite on U.S. wheat acreage and production, but are bad dogs that bark loudly in the export market. It is the perceptibility of these two fungal diseases in U.S. wheat, not actual infections, that may be blamed for economic losses, largely in lost sales opportunities and testing, containment, and processing costs.
On the other hand, Fusarium head blight, or scab, has been a more tangible disease. Yield and quality losses from scab, and its toxic byproduct, vomitoxin, have devastated half of the six major U.S. wheat classes
It’s estimated that wheat growers in N.D. have lost well over $1 billion to scab in the 1990s, and wheat and barley growers in Minnesota, about $1.2 billion.
http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/November96/Sayler.htm
@Willis Eschenbach
I have real issues with your idea I am afraid Willis and I do not care what relationship you can show on a graph … CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.
So for that to be remotely believed you need to provide mechanisms by which it would do it and correlating a few lines on a graph is far short of that, I think I would rather believe that the decrease in the number of pirates is causing global warming because that is a near perfect fit.
The effect of the eruptions is easily seen in the moving average global temperature data at this climate4you site.
The regular 7.5 year cycle of plateau and dip, plateau and dip is interrupted twice once by El Chichon and once by Pinatubo and manifests itself by the loss of shoulders on the transition between plateau and dip. The temperatures soon bounce back pretty much in line with the atmospheric transition data.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/AllCompared%20GlobalMonthlyTempSince1979.gif
suyts says:
September 22, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Crops are of interest to me, too, as a former wheat rancher whose family still farm wheat.
But I’m more interested in reality even than making a point.
MouruanH says:
September 22, 2013 at 3:53 pm
Try putting <pre> before and </pre> after the block of text that is “preformatted,” e.g.:
See my Guide to WUWT at http://home.comcast.net/~ewerme/wuwt/index.html for more HTML formatting information and experiment at http://wattsupwiththat.com/test-2/
Latitude says:
September 22, 2013 at 4:44 pm
Scab didn’t hit MN wheat until 1993, & the effect on national production was negligible.
Maybe the infestation was a delayed effect of Pinatubo. Who knows?
RERT says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:39 pm
I think I’ll leave that as an exercise for someone else, I’m kinda under the weather today. You can estimate it by multplying the forcing by 0.05. The maximum forcing is -3.8 W/m2, so you’d expect a temperature swing of -0.2°C … for that largest swing.
w.
Richard.
The simplest way to deal with the R&C issue is as follows:
I) If surface atmospheric pressure were higher then more energy would be required to break the bonds between water molecules and evaporation could only occur at a higher temperature than at present. The temperature at which the sea surface temperatures are capped would have to rise The formation of clouds would be delayed until after the evaporation had occurred. It is obvious that higher pressure would need a higher temperature to counter it.
II) If surface atmospheric pressure were lower then of course the opposite would happen.
The key to the temperature at which the cap is set is the amount of energy required to break the bonds between water molecules and that is pressure dependent.
Recognition of these facts rounds off any proposition of a thermostat effect so as to make it plausible in terms of the known physics.
Willis, in my humble opinion, needs such a process to make his hypothesis work.
Gerald Wilhite says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:46 pm
We don’t have good answers to that question, Gerald, but my take is that it is quite small. Estimates for the global geothermal heat flow are on the order of a few tenths of a watt, if that.
The thing about both CO2 and heat coming from volcanoes, either under or over the water, is that volcanoes are not very common. The US is active tectonically on a world scale, but there are only a few active volcanoes at any time. Sure, each puts out heat … but only occasionally. Think about how hard it is, for example, to find an area suitable for geothermal heat in Kansas …
So when you average it 24/7 over the whole US, or the whole planet, you get small numbers. It’s a really, really big world.
As always, YMMV,
w.
@ur momisugly MouruanH
To help prevent a mess with formatting of columnar data on a blog, do this: format in a separate text editor using a mono-spaced font like Courier, !! use NO tabs !!, only spaces. When you post, put a tag, <pre> before your data, put </pre> behind, the PRE tag. Your frustration should vanish. Brush up on how to use the PRE or CODE tags on the web.
A true super eruption of a super volcano might be at odds with your “self regulating” surface temperature hypothesis. Yellowstone for instance:
“The oldest identified caldera remnant straddles the border near McDermitt, Nevada-Oregon, although there are volcaniclastic piles and arcuate faults that define caldera complexes more than 60 km (37 mi) in diameter in the Carmacks Group of southwest-central Yukon, Canada, which is interpreted to have formed 70 million years ago by the Yellowstone hotspot.[5][6] Progressively younger caldera remnants, most grouped in several overlapping volcanic fields, extend from the Nevada-Oregon border through the eastern Snake River Plain and terminate in the Yellowstone Plateau. One such caldera, the Bruneau-Jarbidge caldera in southern Idaho, was formed between 10 and 12 million years ago, and the event dropped ash to a depth of one foot (30 cm) 1,000 miles (1,600 km) away in northeastern Nebraska and killed large herds of rhinoceros, camel, and other animals at Ashfall Fossil Beds State Historical Park. Within the past 17 million years, 142 or more caldera-forming eruptions have occurred from the Yellowstone hotspot.[7]” per Wikipedia (sorry)
Living 243 mi from this caldera, much of the soil here is imbued with bentonite, a form of ancient volcanic ash. I suspect the atmospheric effects of such an eruption might last longer and be more significant than those you have looked at from the recent past.
milodonharlani says:
September 22, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Scab didn’t hit MN wheat until 1993, & the effect on national production was negligible.
====
I thought you were talking global?….dunno, I grew cows
From the link….
“Scab and vomitoxin were significant problems this year in the soft red winter wheat growing area, which includes Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Arkansas, and Kentucky. Michigan’s ag director said that “wet weather and warm temperatures have created the worst outbreak of wheat scab in that state in 100 years.” It was the second major scab outbreak for the SRW growing area in the 1990s, with the previous occurrence in 1991.”
I’m going to throw this out there, because for me, ANY Global Warming/Cooling theory no matter which way you lean, has a HUGE gap in it. We didn’t “discover” tectonic plate movement etc until the 1970’s. So “baby” science and added to it the fact that ocean floor is so vast and so hard to reach in some places that we just don’t have a complete picture of what the heck goes on down there.
NOW, that said, in recent years, ocean specialists have been shocked over and over again when they find HUGE geothermal vents in the ocean floors spewing HOT WATER and CO2 and other “greenhouse gases” 24/7. They have ALSO recently discovered that submarine volcanoes can and DO “erupt” just like surface volcanoes (which they previously thought could not happen due to temperatures and deep sea pressures-so for the most part they expected ‘pillow lava’ and mild spreading etc.
SO….it seems to me, that according to the research I’ve read, that there could be at least TWICE as many “active” submarine volcanoes (they estimate many, MANY more-in the thousands) going off-venting-erupting, etc PLUS the tectonic activity which allows HOT WATER and CO2 etc to enter the oceans all the time. Any “consensus” crap I can find on volcanic forcing is based SOLELY on land volcanoes that are KNOWN, and old, OLD measurements/calculations that don’t even begin to touch the ocean floor activity that I suspect IS GOING ON ALL THE TIME. In some cases the CO2 is so hot and under such pressure that it’s LIQUID CO2. A “superfluid”.
Now, over centuries-that would of course cause oceans to warm, AND cause serious CO2 outgassing as those lower, compressed waters are mixed in with the oscillations etc. HUGE amounts of increase. But I don’t know all the mechanics and formulas regarding how much it could rise or intermix etc or how “fast” the effects of it could be seen on the surface and in the atmosphere. I HIGHLY suspect that once we discover and figure it out, ANY “slight” increase in CO2 in the atmosphere could be blamed totally on submarine volcanism. AND-because it wouldn’t be putting the particulate matter into the air, it wouldn’t cause “cooling” necessarily but the CO2 and methane and sulphates etc would STILL be affecting climate.
ANYONE? Can I get a serious “scientist” to look into this as a serious contributor to our climate? Here are just a FEW of the hundreds of links I have to get you started:
http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/submarine
http://www.iceagenow.com/Archived_Articles-2011.htm (this guy might not be right about all of his info, but he’s been tracking underwater volcanic activity for a long time and has links up the wazoo on his “old website”)
http://oceantoday.noaa.gov/deepoceanvolcanoes/
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/10/21/explosive-underwater-eruptions-are-deepest-yet-seen/
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/underwater-volcanos-eruption-kills-fish-offers-clues-to-c
Anyone? Thanks 🙂
Stephen Wilde says:
September 22, 2013 at 1:59 pm
I have no problem with that. However, I have respectfully asked you to do your respectful consideration of that issue elsewhere. And I do have a problem with you bringing it up again. It’s not up for debate. It is divisive, it leads to food fights, and it attracts trolls. Jelbring and any discussion of his work are like some kind of bizarre sub-etheric signal to the lunatic fringe to start piling on. I’m not interested. I know Jelbring is wrong, I’ve proven it to my satisfaction, and the smartest and best scientists I know agree with me. Appeal to authority? I don’t mind if the person actually IS an authority, and I’d say Robert Brown is.
So I ask you politely again …
Take it elsewhere. This is not the thread for that. Tallbloke has lots of threads discussing that very thing. Go there or somewhere else with it, Jelbring in any guise is not welcome on my thread.
w.
PS—There’s backstory. I’ve been fighting this pernicious nonsense of Jelbrings for over a decade now … so when some starry-eyed newbie comes in going “Ooooo, Jelbring” I reach for the airsickness bag. Take it away, Stephen. Not interested.
This does not mean I think Willis is wrong. I think Willis is uninformed-as is most of the scientific community about how MUCH volcanic activity is happening that no one is reporting AND how that can be extrapolated into how much COULD BE happening and we just can’t record/measure yet.
“Tambora’s 1815 outburst was the largest volcanic eruption in recorded history”
Yet, HADCET was barely perturbed other than the temperatures staying below normal which started years earlier.
Reblogged this on sainsfilteknologi and commented:
The Eruption Over the IPCC AR5
Good informative post Willis. It made me wonder about equilibrium mechanisms.
What about micro-organisms as one of the equilibrium agents? They are everywhere in abundance and react to changing circumstances on short time scales. With this picture in mind you can easily see them as an active part of the weather system:
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/images/b/ba/Amatof2.jpg
They did find a lot of them up there:
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/7/2575
”Quantitative PCR and microscopy revealed that viable bacterial cells represented on average around 20% of the total particles in the 0.25- to 1-μm diameter range and were at least an order of magnitude more abundant than fungal cells, suggesting that bacteria represent an important and underestimated fraction of micrometer-sized atmospheric aerosols.”
Did read a book from Lovelock years ago. But I am not thinking macro-mechanisms here, just micro-organisms and shorter timescales. Guess this is speculative stuff still, not easily studied.
I know of one intriguing example of temperature equilibrium in living organisms, apart from the warm-blooded animals: tree-leaves, from this post on WUWT:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/06/13/surprise-leaves-maintain-temperature-new-findings-may-put-dendroclimatology-as-metric-of-past-temperature-into-question/
So live can be very adept in maintaining an equilibrium. I would speculate the biosphere is one of the players in the game.
Latitude says:
September 22, 2013 at 5:10 pm
It’s insignificant. Outbreak in 1991 occurred in year with then highest global production. Climate does affect fungal diseases, of course, but US scab had almost no measurable affect on world production.
To attribute global decline in wheat production to scab in US is, excuse me, simply nuts. Affect of drought in Australia was much greater, which began in second half of 1991, coincidentally after the Pinatubo eruption.
Philip Bradley says:
September 22, 2013 at 2:14 pm
This is why climate science is such a mess. People are pattern-finding machines, and in far too many cases, they find what are not patterns. That’s why we invented statistics.
The binomial distribution says that if you flip a coin seven times, you get five or more heads A QUARTER OF THE TIME!!! And that’s exactly the odds of five of seven volcanoes occurring in half of the year.
So you look at that result, which has NO STATISTiCAL SIGNIFICANCE AT ALL, and you build a whole theory about how volcanoes operate out of it …
Folks, don’t come in here without a fist full of numbers to back your play. I’m tired of this kind of nonsense. We’ve been doing this for some years now, so it’s time to man up, stop the handwaving, and RUN THE NUMBERS before you uncap your electronic pen.
Sorry to make an example out of your foolishness, Philip, it’s not personal. I just can’t tell you how tired I am of people claiming significance where none exists.
w.