This is something I never expected to see in print. Climate modeler Dr. Gavin Schmidt of NASA GISS comments on the failure of models to match real world observations.
Source:
[ http://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/340605947883962368 ]
While the discussion was about social models, it is also germane to climate modeling since they too don’t match real world observations. Below is an example of climate models -vs- the real world; something’s clearly not right.
Graph source: IPCC AR5 draft
Is it maths or assumptions (or both) that cause the divergence?
UPDATE: In comments, I had a discussion with reader “jfk” which I think is worth sharing. He made some good points, and it helped hone my own thinking on the issue:
jfk says: Submitted on 2013/06/01 at 8:40 am
Well, I still think it’s a bit unfair to Gavin (and I am no fan of his). But hey, it’s Anthony’s site.
For a good review of the many failures of statistical modeling in social sciences (and one or two successes) see the book “Statistical Models: Theory and Practice” by David Freedman. Whether or not climate modeling has devolved to the point where it is social science rather than physics, well, I hope it’s not quite that bad…
REPLY: And I think it is more than a bit unfair to us, that if he believes what he tweets, he should re-examine his own assumptions about climate modeling. We have economies, taxes, livelihood, etc. hinging (or perhaps failing) on the success of these models to predict the climate in the future. The models aren’t working, and Dr. Schmidt knows this. Unfortunately his job is tied to the idea that they do in fact work. I feel no regrets at making this comparison front and center. – Anthony
UPDATE2: RussR in comments, provides this graph below showing Hansen’s modeled scenarios against real world observations. He writes:
Here’s an excel spreadsheet comparing observed temperatures vs. model projection from: Hansen (1988), IPCC FAR (1990), IPCC SAR (1995) and IPCC TAR (2001), in pretty charts.
It can be updated as more observations are added.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78507292/Climate%20Models.xlsx
UPDATE3: Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. adds this in comments.
Climate models are engineering code with quite a few tunable parameters, and fitting functions in their parameterization of clouds, precipitation, land-atmospheric interfacial fluxes, long- and short-wave radiative flux divergences, etc. Only a part of these models are basic physics representations – the pressure gradient force, advection, the Coriolis effect.
The tunable parameters and fitting functions are developed by adjustment from real world data and a higher resolution models (which themselves are engineering code), but only for a quite small subset of real world conditions.
I discuss this issue in depth in my book
Pielke Sr, R.A., 2013: Mesoscale meteorological modeling. 3rd Edition, Academic Press, in press. http://www.amazon.com/Mesoscale-Meteorological-Modeling-International-Geophysics/dp/0123852374/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370191013&sr=8-2&keywords=mesoscale+meteorological+modeling
The multi-decadal global climate model projections, when run in a hindcast mode for the last several decades are showing very substantial errors, as I summarize in the article
http://pielkeclimatesci.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/b-18preface.pdf
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I find Russ R’s graph to be most interesting. As noted before,the closest match to reality is that model which assumes zero CO2 growth after year 2000. Since we all know that is not the case, then it appears that the additional CO2 we have added to the atmosphere has had no impact.
I think it would really help the average person if a simple graph were made: one line showing the average results shown by the models using the assumption that the climate is dependent on CO2; one line showing the results if CO2 levels were ignored (had no impact on climate); and the last line showing actual temps. Let the reader decide which scenario more closely fits reality.
Paul Vaughan says:
June 1, 2013 at 2:59 pm
goldminor (June 1, 2013 at 2:21 pm) suggested:
“Consensus starts to fade, understanding blossoms.”
We’ll see — ( not holding my breath … )
__________________
Agreed. Governments have been overturned for less than what we’ve seen by some stunning climate- related revelations of the past week, yet there’s the US Congress, making lots of noise about carbon tax. I had one Liberal lady friend practically go F5 on me for pointing out the MET office’s admission of no statistical significance to any warming the past century or so. Some people never do catch on.
Instead of CO2 as the driver, put in 10.7 cm Flux appropriately scaled. Then run forward/backward projections. Start from1900, for instance.
I can’t help but get the feeling troll central have dispatched minions to divert the heat off Gavin’s gaffe. That’s the unavoidable downside of a no debate with deniers policy – you end up having your viewpoint represented by rather obvious shills, who do more harm that good to the “cause.”
Pointman
The task ahead is not to debunk several assumptions individual computational climate models may be based on, but to debunk the entire modelling paradigm as it is practiced in contemporary climate science.
What they are doing is to fit multiple, mutually inconsistent computational models of high Kolmogorov complexity to a single run of a unique physical instance (the “climate system”), which is far too large to fit into the lab, therefore can never be studied experimentally. Even observational evidence of the system’s unrepeatable history is patchy at best and for basic parameters (like “Planck weighted average thermal IR optical depth of the atmosphere” or “short wave planetary albedo”) are lacking.
This is why the concept of experimentum crucis can never be applied in this field of inquiry to incrementally eliminate models of poor performance and choose unequivocally between the few remaining competitors.
With enough free parameters to draw detailed representations of superheroes in comics, any such model can be fitted to any history, which means even if their basic assumptions are mutually exclusive, none of them can be falsified. This dire situation is supposed to be rectified by the slogan “All models are wrong, but some are useful”, with no operational definition of the concept “useful”, of course. Which makes choosing the useful ones arbitrary, to be based on preferences unrelated to the actual subject matter.
No wonder predictions of these models diverge widely. They would even more, if “useless” models were included, whose predictions utterly defy (political?) expectations.
The climate community responded to lack of falsifiability, mutual inconsistency & diverging predictions of models in a most curious way. They have invented the concept of “ensemble average”, which is supposed to “wash out” individual quirks of models and produce an outcome which, in a mysterious way, comes closer to reality than any member of said ensemble. However, we can see clearly, that ensemble average can only mirror the fuzzy concept of “useful” at best (preferences of “experts”), nothing else.
The other device introduced to fight uncertainty is the concept of “projection” (as opposed to prediction), which is justified by the existence of several different future “scenarios”, but which, in fact, is good for nothing but to kick unpredictability under the rug. In a sane world it could easily be replaced by genuine predictions over the field of all possible scenarios (emission trajectories & whatnot), but that would make them all too vulnerable to falsification.
The entire hullabaloo is justified by the phrase “there is no other way to make predictions in climate science than by modelling”, with the additional hidden assumption that with modelling it is indeed possible. But, as we have seen above, this hidden assumption is untenable. Which, if we suppose the the first proposition concerning models was true, would imply the unpredictability of climate. But that conclusion is never drawn.
The grave process described above has effectively slipped climate science down on a slippery slope to the level of a full fledged pseudoscience, where outcomes are not determined by nature, but wishful thinking and expectations.
________________________________________
Note all pseudosciences are organized around issues of utmost practical importance (health, fate, inexhaustible energy). On the other hand genuine science never even tries to be practical. The Earth with all its wonderful weather phenomena is something, but who’d care how optical depth determines the statistics of temperature distribution in a fluid, enclosed in a semitranspatent container, put onto a thermally well insulated rotating table in a pith black vacuum chamber whose walls are kept cool by liquid nitrogen wile irradiated by powerful lasers or such? No one but a bunch of weirdo scientists.
Still, that’s the only path that holds some chance to understand climate, because practical appliations usually come quite late in the game, if ever.
For genuine science does right the opposite climate modellers are trying to do. It seeks a single consistent model of low Kolmogorov complexity (a.k.a. “simple”), applicable to multiple runs of a wide class of physical entities, with certain members of said class being suitable to be studied experimentally in the lab.
With no general understanding of closed non-equilibrium quasi steady state thermodynamic systems with a vast number of nonlinearly coupled internal degrees of freedom, radiatively coupled to their environment (one of the many gaping holes in semi-classical physics) one has no hope to make any progress in bringing back climate science to the narrow path which may (or may not) lead to salvation.
“Perfect maths plus bad assumptions still equals BS”
Nice mirror you have there Gavin.
Let the walking back of all the climate fearmongering and hysteria you have been shovelling off the back of the truck for many years begin.
My father had a simple way of saying this. Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!
The science WAS settled…
Robin says:
June 1, 2013 at 8:54 am
“I just finished reading the UN’s Post-2015 plans for all of us so I wouldn’t get too excited that anyone is seeing the light. They are using climate change literally as the basis for remaking societies, economies, and new mindsets and values.”
There is currently a huge lovefest of ICLEI / Agenda 21 in Bonn, Germany, and you might not be surprised that all they talk about is how The Climate Change is the most serious problem for the development of cities (and that while the planet hasn’t warmed in 15 years)
You can’t make it up:
http://www.iclei.org/en/our-activities/our-agendas/resilient-city/resilient-cities-2013-live-blog/day-2.html
Things that make you go hmmm…
The black line (observed temps) and green line (model projection based on zero growth of GHGs) are tracking pretty well.
Doesn’t that prove that whatever Hansen’s model does (internally) with GHG’s is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to temperature, because when the model assumes no change in GHG’s, it gets it RIGHT, no matter what GHG’s do in real life. LOL!
Remove all GHG-code from his model and it works!! GHG’s are innocent!!
Talk about “Hoist by his own petard!”
Unlike most here, I’m something of a fan of Gavin’s despite his CAGW promotion efforts. He is usually very precise in his use of language, as a good scientist should be. When Gavin says ‘assumption’, I think he means exactly that.
Assumption – something taken for granted
As opposed to a theoretical prediction.
Gavin is saying that something outside of the theoretical basis for the model, we haven’t really considered, is an important determinant of what happens. In the context of climate models, he is saying is, that important stuff, we don’t know much about, is missing from the climate models.
Which is a position many here could agree with.
Gavin, bad assumptions forming model + correct maths =rubbish. For those social science models.
But not for my models.
Damn fine comment Anthony, Gavin knows his models are FUBAR or he is an absolute fool.
Robin is correct when he wrote above
“Basically education creates the desired new mindsets with few accurate facts and lots of erroneous supplied concepts that filter daily perceptions in predictable ways. Then media reenforces by what it covers and does not.”
This is very visible in other areas of science as well as that of climate. For example, Monsanto, whcih has taken over swathes of the US goverment and even its legal system by strategic placement of former company officials, is also now susidising educational establishments. It lobbies goverments and the EU relentlessly
Meanhwile the worldwide ‘March on Monsanto’ against GMOs in which hundreds of thousands participated was met with a blanket blackout, save for a tiny mention on CNN.
And as with ‘climate science’, the entire food testing system is now in the hands of people paid to poduce a certain result, favourable to those who pump us full of chemicals, preservatives and sterile GMOs. The very few independent scientists who attempt to publish non-food industy-funded research highlighting the dangers of this new kind of ‘food’ find their reputations trashed and their jobs terminated, all with not a peep from the MSM
The purchase and subsequent perversion of science is very far advanced, in all areas
I have claimed for years that climate science was an infant science. The study of the climate has only 30 (60) years of reliable data for the last 4 billion years unless you ask a geologist or two. Modern geology is also a relatively young science.
The study of man’s behaviors has been pursued for millennia.
It really is absurd for some one to claim that we have the climate figured out, yet cant predict how much rain will fall tomorrow and where it will fall.
It is as absurd to claim the climate models parameters are ‘assumed correctly’ based on 10 years of real research, than to claim that 1000’s of years of study of the human can’t correctly assume parameters. Of course both are chaotic systems and can never be modeled using accepted maths and common assumptions.
It can’t be stated enough that the climate models are falsified. Period. The scientists can’t keep saying just wait another decade. We are approaching two decades of no warming. Richard Feynman said if observations don’t match the guess, then the theory is wrong. It don’t matter how much we have spent, who we are, who we work for, how much my colleagues agree with me, one falsification and the theory is falsified forever. Enough said. Next theory?
What a joke for the philosopher to tackle.
EJ
The point that Anthony is making here is that Gavin is holding others to higher standards than he holds himself to, so Anthony’s entire post is right on the mark.
Berényi Péter,
We can probably agree that if challenged with “Your model is not useful”, a climate-modeler could legitimately answer “Well it’s useful to me!”
the failure of models to match real world
===================
Gavin did not limit his remarks to Social Science Models. He is making a general statement about models; that the errors are far more likely to result from erroneous assumptions. Thus it is fair comment to consider how his remarks apply to climate models.
Mathematical errors can also result from faulty assumptions. One assumes that the data is suitable for a specific type of analysis, while in reality the assumption is wrong. For example, the notion of “calibration” of tree rings to thermometers. This is a classic example of “selection by the dependent variable”, which is a huge statistical No-No, yet is routinely accepted by climate science peer review.
Unfortunately, this points to a problem in peer review. No reviewer is fluent in all disciplines, so when a climate paper deals with statistics, unless the reviewer is a statistician they are likely to miss statistical nonsense. This problem allowed tree ring calibration to corrupt mathematical analysis of past temperatures, creating the shaft of the infamous hockey stick, and much of the public hype and panic over global warming.
Dr. Taleb says:
We can’t “leave the planet the way we got it”. Anything we do, or don’t do, will change the planet. Wrecking the economy, with the dream of not changing the plant, will cause much worse environmental consequences. Many people have pointed out that the best thing for the environment is for us to have enough economic surplus that we can afford to protect the environment.
The economy, as Taleb well knows, is a complex system. If he follows his own advice he will realize that making wrenching changes to the economy will have unintended consequences and many of those consequences will adversely affect the environment.
Is it possible for people with enhanced thinking skills to make poor decisions? Yes it is. It happens time and time again. Having a PhD is not a magic shield against being grindingly stupid. The education just makes it possible to be stupid in a more sophisticated manner. The examples are numerous and everyone has seen many. It’s just that they think that they, themselves, are somehow immune. That leads them to do really dreadful things.
“Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false.” – Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays
The facile mantra that we must “leave the planet the way we got it”, is either stupid or intellectually dishonest. It is also sure to create much evil and human suffering. {/rant}
The problem with the Gavin’s like models is both mathematical and physical.
These models fail to properly reconstruct the climate oscillations at multiple scales such as the multidecadal-to-millennial ones. Thus, they are missing proper physics. The missing physics has to do with astronomical forcings of the climate and with the climate response to them because the missed oscillations are synchronous to astronomical oscillations related to the sun, to the moon and to the planets in general.
The models also fail mathematically because to recover the 20th century warming despite the missing physics, they have exaggerate the GHG effect by arbitrary parameterization of the internal feedbacks of the models.
All these things are clearly explained in my papers. For example in
Scafetta N., 2012. Testing an astronomically based decadal-scale empirical harmonic climate model versus the IPCC (2007) general circulation climate models. Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics 80, 124-137.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682611003385
and more recently in
Scafetta N., 2013. Discussion on common errors in analyzing sea level accelerations, solar trends and global warming. Pattern Recognition in Physics, 1, 37–57. (open access)
http://www.pattern-recogn-phys.net/1/37/2013/prp-1-37-2013.pdf
In particular, in the latter paper (in particular in section 2) there is a detailed discussion of the mathematical/physical errors made also by Gavin to exaggerate the man-made global warming.
There it is demonstrated that the GISS model underestimate the solar signature on climate by a very large factor both at the decadal and millennial scale.
jim2: “I am aghast that Taleb would make such a obviously idiotic statement.”
Why? Taleb wrote a whole book of obviously idiotic statements, his thing on “Black Swans.”
Mike jarosz says:
June 1, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Nothing happens in the U.S. as far as treaties without 2/3 of the U.S Senate approval. Last vote in 1997 was 95 to 0 against destroying the U.S. economy to save the planet. They may be stupid liberals, but they’re not crazy.
You are assuming that they did not vote against the treaty because it would have taken away power from them.
As for volcanos, don’t make the same mistake as climate scientists . Do not assume that the last 100 years is a normal iteration in anyway NATURALLY to the state of affairs on a 4 billion year old planet that has cycles volcanically, weather, and in its climate system that we can not even dream of. In other words, you do not have enough data to make any assumptions about future volcanic eruptions. Any predictions based on 100 years of data are nothing but conjecture and in essence a blind-ass guess which is what climate scientists do. Please don’t scare people in other words on something you do not know anything about. Perhaps there will be an eruption in 2018. Perhaps CAGW will hit and prove us sceptics all wrong. Perhaps a unicorn will fart in China and cause a huge hurricane to hit the US. I have not studied any of these topics to give you a probability based on educated guesses, but I can tell you that the probability of having a volcanic eruption in 2018 is the same as it is for the year 2017 and just a tad lower than that of 2016 when leap year gives an extra day via our calender to make the event just that slightly more likely.
So if you are a betting man, I will bet on 2016 and take my chances with the extra day. If I was you, I would do the same thing if you are betting on the future.
Mike jarosz
June 1, 2013 at 1:23 pm
That vote in the Senate (Gores pet) occurred before the Socialist purged themselves of anyone approaching moderation and before the, now two generations produced by our ‘Socially Enhanced’ re-education system, decided that handing the keys to the Federal Government over to the Chicago mob would be a good idea.
David is right, they are just going around Congress with Executive Orders and Department Mandates. Another reason why this President has refused to appoint Inspector Generals to five key departments including the EPA.
The folks that spend their time studying ENSO statistical and dynamical models are having the same discussions. The old standby statistical models have, in my opinion, out-performed the newer dynamical models in predicting what the ENSO pattern will be. What is interesting is that there is a group of scientists who meet to discuss the whole enchalada and then make a “consensus” guess as to what the oceans and atmosphere will do. This week the consensus dipped below both the dynamical models (which always seem to favor boiling oceans), and the statistical models (which are never as El Nino-ish as the dynamical models are). Could it be that models have lost their shine in all climate circles?
“So, you are saying that if bad assumptions are used to create initial conditions and process dynamics for climate models, and the mathematics are right, that the climate models will still give the right answer? Do tell.”
No, I’m saying Gavin probably has a better idea about the quality of those initial conditions than someone who doesn’t do his job. And trying to co-opt his words into making your arguments for you is about as honest as lifting Darwin’s quote about eyeballs.
By the way, I counted 20+ comments from people who think Gavin was recanting his confidence about climate models before I quit counting. Perhaps changing the title and removing the references to climate would help. You are the only person these people trust, and they are getting a message from you here that is just not true.
As it is it reads like:
“Anthony Watts: The Mathematics are right…the climate models will still give the right answer.”*
insert chart that shows models working
Note:Anthony said nothing like that.(they don’t read this part)
Dere’s eben more smoke commin’ out da machine