Monetizing the Effects of Carbon

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A few months ago [2012] in the New York Times Green Blog they talked about “monetizing” the “social cost” of carbon. The article said:

In 2010, 12 government agencies working in conjunction with economists, lawyers and scientists, agreed to work out what they considered a coherent standard for establishing the social cost of carbon. The idea was that, in calculating the costs and benefits of pending policies and regulations, the Department of Transportation could not assume that a ton of emitted carbon dioxide imposed a $2 cost on society while the Environmental Protection Agency plugged 10 times that amount into its equations.

the monetizing of carbonHow does one “monetize” something, and what is a “social cost” when it is in its native habitat?

First, the easy one. A “social cost” is generally some estimated or inferred cost to society from something, in particular a cost that is not reflected in the price of the item itself. For example, alcohol has a social cost in the form of a variety of societal problems. That cost is not included in the raw ex-factory price of alcoholic beverages.

Next, to “monetize” a social cost means 1) to attach some monetary value to that social cost, and then 2) to attach that monetary value to the retail cost of the product in the form of an increased price. In the case of alcohol, that is usually done through government taxes. Sometimes, the revenue from these taxes is dedicated to ameliorating that social cost. In the case of alcohol, that might be in the form of alcohol dependence programs or clinics. Other times the income goes into the general fund.

This is generally not a problem as long as there is widespread agreement about the existence of the social costs. In the case of carbon emissions, however, no such agreement exists. There is no evidence of current costs or damages, only models of possible imagined future damages. Accordingly, even among those who agree that there is a social cost to carbon emissions, there is wide disagreement about the size of those costs.

However, despite the differences, and despite the lack of evidence of any demonstrable costs, the attempt to “monetize” the imagined future damages from carbon emissions continue apace. As you might imagine, I object to the whole process. Oddly, they didn’t listen to me, and the article in the NY Times say that they have settled on a value of $21 per tonne of carbon. The article said one government agency was using $2 a ton and another was using ten times that, or $20 a ton. So I guess they took the average of the two and used that average of $21 per ton for all government calculations … but again I digress.

Over-riding everything in this question is the unthinking, un-acknowledged destruction from jacking up energy prices. This always hits the poor hardest, as I have discussed elsewhere. Energy taxes, including carbon taxes and “monetizations” are the most regressive tax of all. But I digress … I was discussing monetization of carbon.

Let me recapitulate my two main objections to carbon monetization. The first is that for many issues, including carbon, there is no agreed upon way to establish the monetary values. In the case of CO2 there are questions about the very existence of such costs, much less their value. As the NYT article points out, there is great disagreement over the $21 figure even among those who agree that there is some social cost to CO2. Since there is no actual evidence of any actual costs, this is all merely claims and counterclaims, even between adherents. There is no objective way to settle the disagreements.

My second objection is that while people are often in a hurry to monetize the social costs of something, they rarely take the necessary other step. They rarely are in a hurry to monetize the social benefits of something. But if you do one, you have to do the other. After all, this is why it’s called a “cost/benefit” analysis …

I have even had someone seriously argue that there is no need to monetize the social benefits, because they were already included in the market price. After all, he argued, the reason we buy something is because of the perceived benefits. So they are already included in the price.

I find this argument singularly unconvincing. Some benefits are already included in the price, and some aren’t. Since a single counter-example will serve to disprove the general theorem, let me take a social benefit of CO2 as an example. This is the known effect of atmospheric CO2 levels on plants, which is that they increase their production with increasing atmospheric CO2. Obviously, nobody goes out and buys gasoline for their car in order to help the plants, so it is not included in the market price. However, increased plant growth is an undoubted social benefit, a huge one that affects the whole world. Therefore, it is an un-accounted for social benefit, one which does not get included in the price.

Accordingly, let’s take a look at monetizing this un-accounted social benefit. Curiously, the value of increased plant production is both easier and less contentious to calculate than are the claimed social costs of CO2. Why?

Well, it’s because the claimed costs of CO2 are future, imaginary costs that cannot be measured, where the increased plant production is both real and measurable. But I digress.

The folks over at CO2 Science have looked at the experimentally measured increase in plant biomass due to a 300 ppmv increase in atmospheric CO2. The figures are here, in Table 2. The changes are different for each plant, ranging from about 30% to 60%. So let’s be conservative and use the bottom end, an average 30% increase from a 300 ppmv increase. CO2 levels have gone up about 115 ppmv since pre-industrial times. This means that there has been on the order of a 10% increase in the annual production due to CO2.

Now, how much is this 10% increase in global plant production worth? Well, the marvelous FAO database called FAOSTAT puts the value of the annual plant production at ten trillion dollars annually, so lets assume a third of that, say $3.3 trillion dollars. Is $3.3 correct? There you have the problem with monetization … no way to know. But assuming that a 10% increase from some smaller value is due to increased CO2, that puts the annual value of this one single solitary social benefit of CO2 at over $300 billion dollars.

How does that compare to the proposed $21 per tonne social cost? Well, at present we’re emitting about 9.5 gigatonnes of carbon annually. That would mean that the total monetized social cost would be $21 times that number of tonnes emitted, which gives us about $200 billion dollars per year.

So here’s the balance—we have a verified, measurable social benefit to the planet of $300 billion annually, and an unverified, unmeasurable estimated social cost of $200 billion annually. Which leaves me with just one burning question …

When do I get my check for the social benefits I’m providing? The US has provided somewhere around a third of the CO2 responsible for that social benefit, that’s $100 billion per year in benefits … three hundred million Americans, that’s about $333 per American per year …

w.

PS—What’s that I hear you saying? You think I calculated the benefits wrong?

Well, certainly, perhaps I did. After all, it was just a rough cut. But all that does is bring us back to my first objection to “monetizing” CO2 … it’s very hard to get agreement on the actual values.

PPS—Note that I’ve only considered one single social benefit, the increase in plant production. Since their claimed costs relate to claimed future temperature rises, how about the benefit of increased ice-free days at the northern ports if temperatures do rise? And the longer growing seasons if temperatures increase? How much are they worth worldwide? They likely have included the extra costs from air-conditioning to fight the fabled future heat, but have they included the reduction in winter heating? I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point. The whole thing is an exercise in fantasy, shifting sands with no clear answers.

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Mervyn
January 12, 2013 3:59 am

If you hear anyone referring to monetizing the “social cost” of carbon you must automatically think “And the ulterior motive is?”
Well I’ll tell you.
It’s useful for governments as a basis for taxing “we the people”.
It’s especially useful to the international bankers trading in carbon dioxide making squillions in trading fees.
Apart from these two stakeholders, nobody is bothered with such a ludicrous issue… especially when 97% of the carbon dioxide entering the atmosphere each year is from natural sources as declared by the IPCC with its “settled science” bible – the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report of 2007.

Doug Huffman
January 12, 2013 4:04 am

In re social cost; recall BJ Xlinton & Hag promoting taxation of imputed value to divorce taxation from realty reality. SCOTUS first addressed imputed income value in Helvering v. Independent Life Ins. Co., 292 U.S. 371, 378-79 (1934).

mfo
January 12, 2013 4:05 am

I read the article as highlighting, with clarity and a touch of humor, the hijacking of environmentalism by the rapacious prophets of CAGW and the absurdity of trying to calculate the cost of an increase in carbon dioxide.
Such absurdity is embodied in the NRDC tax return where carbon dioxide is described as pollution five times.
http://www.nrdc.org/about/NRDC_990_2010.pdf
I entirely agree that lack of accessible and affordable energy is one of the the major causes of poverty. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to get out more.

Doug Huffman
January 12, 2013 4:11 am

In re monetization; a mere euphemism for profiting from abuse of the commons. See today’s monetization of free Coursera certification.

Claude Harvey
January 12, 2013 4:12 am

In the event there is anyone out there is who is puzzled to note that it is very difficult to find even a single, one-world-socialist anywhere who does not swear fealty to AGW theory regardless of hard facts, there is a reason:
AGW is the granddaddy of all “transfer-the-wealth, centralized-control-of-everything” mechanisms ever invented by man.

Doug Huffman
January 12, 2013 5:07 am

“[L]ack of accessible and affordable energy is one of the the major causes of poverty.” Which precedes what, “affordable” or “poverty”?
A hero poster here posted energy cost analysis suggesting 10¢ as the value of 10 hours on a human powered generator. Meanwhile the value of a barrel of oil hovers around US$100, and simple math reciprocates that to the value of US$1.

chinook
January 12, 2013 5:12 am

The Pompous Git says:
January 12, 2013 at 3:29 am
chinook said January 12, 2013 at 3:09 am
“Enhanced plant growth due to increased co2 is sound science.”
“Much of the enhanced growth due to higher CO2 levels is due to reduced transpiration of water by the plant. The pores in plant leaves that allow gas exchange also allow water vapour to be lost. Higher levels of CO2 lead to decreased pore-size, reducing this latter effect. According to the CSIRO, this leads to a decrease in water runoff.”
CO2 is an essential element in carbohydrate production. It’s a building block for plant food. The effects you mention will enhance that and the plant’s survival and those effects are secondary to or a result of the plants having enough of certain elements to produce their own carb’s. A lack of essential elements and h2o results in poor or no plant growth. I question – “much of enhanced growth” is due to reduced transpiration. For me that means plants will do better during drought conditions and in general, but without co2 the plants will not grow in the first place. Just because a plant has plenty of h2o available or utilizes it more efficiently, if essential elements for it’s carb production are missing, the plant isn’t going to flourish.
Just found this which is interesting: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/01/06/co2-is-plant-food-clean-coal-say-watt/

Lars P.
January 12, 2013 5:21 am

Climate Ace says:
January 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm
I am not too fussed by short term air temperatures. Following global heat makes a bit more sense, IMHO. I am also not too fussed by days, weeks, months, years or even decades of weather – I am happy to go with centuries in any discussion.
Climate science – and especially the greenhouse gases theorists – are not able to explain past variations of the climate. The overall tendencies of such theorists are to negate, deny such variations existed. Example the MWP.
The explanations for the LIA from such groups are in the grotesque area of fringe science, like Genghis Khan the green warrior who killing 40 millions reforested large areas and reduced CO2 with 6-12 ppm causing LIA, or conquistadores doing the same with the Mayans. Or early human killing farting mega-fauna and causing the Younger Dryas.
These theories do not stand a fact check but will remain as historical climate-science lows of the twenties century.
If the greenhouse gases would be as powerful as these theorists think, why did the climate not ran out of balance during the Holocene optimum, when Arctic was largely ice-free? Why did not all that freed Methane run us in Thermaggedon? Or during the previous interglacial, Eemian warming which was 2 degrees warmer then now?
Waiting your happy answer with documented data.
If you need any reference for the any of the above am be happy to provide my sources.

Pops
January 12, 2013 5:34 am

The elephant in the room is that this conversation wouldn’t even be taking place if it weren’t for fossil fuels. The primary benefit of fossil fuels is low-cost energy. The benefit of low-cost energy is that it frees a lot of people to do a lot of things they would not otherwise be able to do because they would be out in the field behind a team of horses trying to produce enough food to last through the winter, or trying to cut enough wood to stay warm through the winter, or hunkering down and trying to survive the winter. The modern world as we know it would not exist but for fossil fuels.
Put a cost on that.

mpainter
January 12, 2013 6:14 am

Climate Ace:
The whole of your argument is predicated on invalid theory. AGW does not exist. In fact, many climatologists say that the earth is starting a prolonged cooling trend. This winter has brought record cold, and people are freezing to death by the scores in the NH and you wish to tax the people who try to keep warm. This is unconscionable.

chris y
January 12, 2013 6:20 am

Lew Skannen says on January 11, 2013 at 10:46 pm
“Our beloved Australian government has done a pretty good job of carbonizing money.
They have burned through billions on this insane CAGW scam.”
Excellent! I nominate Lew Skannen’s quip for quote of the week!
Monetizing carbon carbonizes money.

chris y
January 12, 2013 6:28 am

Lew Skannen’s quote of the week nominee-
Monetizing carbon carbonizes money.

richardscourtney
January 12, 2013 6:42 am

Climate Ace:
At January 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm you assert

In short, IMHO, BAU does not pass Risk Management 101.

A “risk” which does not exist cannot be “managed”.
And problems often result from adopting actions to avoid a risk which does not exist.

There is no evidence – none, zilch, nada – for discernible AGW.
But there is much evidence that discernible AGW does not exist; e.g.
missing ‘hot spot’.
missing ‘Trenberth’s heat’,
missing ‘committed warming’
lack of global warming at 95% confidence for 16 years (and counting) despite increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration,
etc.
Of course, AGW may exist at some trivial level which is too small for it to be discerned, but if it cannot be detected then it cannot be a problem and, therefore, poses no “risk”.
So, there is no “risk” of AGW to be “managed” except in the fertile imaginations of some people, including you.
In the unlikely event that discernible AGW is detected then it would be reasonable to consider what – if any – “risk management” it requires. Until then, absolute rejection and ridicule are the only rational responses to comments such as all of your posts on this thread.
Richard

William Astley
January 12, 2013 7:08 am

Carbon Dioxide: Poison or Essential gas for life on this planet? What is the ideal level of atmospheric CO2 for life on this planet?
Comment: In reply to the question concerning what is the ideal atmospheric CO2 level for plants on this plant. The ideal level is around 1000 ppm. Business as usual will see atmospheric CO2 levels rise from 390 ppm to 560 ppm by 2100. (See figure 1 in the attached review paper, first attachment.)
It is absurd that the benefits of increased CO2 have not been quantified and compared to benign planetary temperature rise. (If the planet’s response to a change in forcing is to resist the change by an increase or decrease of clouds in the tropical region – negative feedback – rather than to amplify the forcing change – positive feedback – then the warming due to doubling of atmospheric CO2 from 280 ppm to 560 ppm will be roughly 1C with most of the warming occurring at high latitudes which will cause the biosphere to expand, particularly in the Northern hemisphere.)
Commercial greenhouses inject CO2 to raise the CO2 level in the greenhouse to about 800 ppm to 1200 ppm to increase in yield and reduce growing times. The fact that higher levels of CO2 increase plant growth rates and cereal crop yield is not new science. We are carbon based life forms. The carbon which we are formed from comes from atmospheric CO2. CO2 is not a poison. Increased atmospheric CO2 will result in an expanded and more productive biosphere.
There is an additional benefit (in addition to an increase in cereal crop yield of up to 40% and benign warming of roughly 1C) for a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from 280 ppm to 560 ppm by the end of this century: Reduced desertification.
Increasing CO2 enables plants to make efficient use of water. That enables plants to survive and to have increased productivity in low water regions which reduces desertification. It also enables the plant to leave more water at its roots which enables synergistic nitrogen producing bacteria to thrive.
C3 plants lose roughly 40% of the absorbed water due to transrespiration. To absorb sufficient CO2 to grow the C3 plant requires more stomata on the surface of their leaves. Water is lost from the stomata as CO2 is absorbed.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/00-077.htm
For the majority of greenhouse crops, net photosynthesis increases as CO2 levels increase from 340–1,000 ppm (parts per million). Most crops show that for any given level of photosynthetically active radiation (PAR), increasing the CO2 level to 1,000 ppm will increase the photosynthesis by about 50% over ambient CO2 levels. For some crops the economics may not warrant supplementing to 1,000 ppm CO2 at low light levels. For others such as tulips, and Easter lilies, no response has been observed.
Carbon dioxide enters into the plant through the stomatal openings by the process of diffusion. Stomata are specialized cells located mainly on the underside of the leaves in the epidermal layer. The cells open and close allowing gas exchange to occur. The concentration of CO2 outside the leaf strongly influences the rate of CO2 uptake by the plant. The higher the CO2 concentration outside the leaf, the greater the uptake of CO2 by the plant. Light levels, leaf and ambient air temperatures, relative humidity, water stress and the CO2 and oxygen (O2) concentration in the air and the leaf, are many of the key factors that determine the opening and closing of the stomata. Ambient CO2 level in outside air is about 340 ppm by volume. All plants grow well at this level but as CO2 levels are raised by 1,000 ppm photosynthesis increases proportionately resulting in more sugars and carbohydrates available for plant growth. Any actively growing crop in a tightly clad greenhouse with little or no ventilation can readily reduce the CO2 level during the day to as low as 200 ppm. The decrease in photosynthesis when CO2 level drops from 340 ppm to 200 ppm is similar to the increase when the CO2 levels are raised from 340 to about 1,300 ppm (Figure 1). As a rule of thumb, a drop in carbon dioxide levels below ambient has a stronger effect than supplementation above ambient.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w7gy1cyyr5yey994/
Carbon dioxide effects on stomatal responses to the environment and water use by crops under field conditions
Reductions in leaf stomatal conductance with rising atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration ([CO2]) could reduce water use by vegetation and potentially alter climate. Crop plants have among the largest reductions in stomatal conductance at elevated [CO2]. The relative reduction in stomatal conductance caused by a given increase in [CO2] is often not constant within a day nor between days, but may vary considerably with light, temperature and humidity. Species also differ in response, with a doubling of [CO2] reducing mean midday conductances by 50% in others. Elevated [CO2] increases leaf area index throughout the growing season in some species. Simulations, and measurements in free air carbon dioxide enrichment systems both indicate that the relatively large reductions in stomatal conductance in crops would translate into reductions of <10% in evapotranspiration, partly because of increases in temperature and decreases in humidity in the air around crop leaves.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/07/090731-green-sahara.html
The green shoots of recovery are showing up on satellite images of regions including the Sahel, a semi-desert zone bordering the Sahara to the south that stretches some 2,400 miles (3,860 kilometers).
Images taken between 1982 and 2002 revealed extensive regreening throughout the Sahel, according to a new study in the journal Biogeosciences. The study suggests huge increases in vegetation in areas including central Chad and western Sudan. In the eastern Sahara area of southwestern Egypt and northern Sudan, new trees—such as acacias—are flourishing, according to Stefan Kröpelin, a climate scientist at the University of Cologne's Africa Research Unit in Germany.
"Shrubs are coming up and growing into big shrubs. This is completely different from having a bit more tiny grass," said Kröpelin, who has studied the region for two decades
In 2008 Kröpelin—not involved in the new satellite research—visited Western Sahara, a disputed territory controlled by Morocco. "The nomads there told me there was never as much rainfall as in the past few years," Kröpelin said. "They have never seen so much grazing land."
"Before, there was not a single scorpion, not a single blade of grass," he said.
"Now you have people grazing their camels in areas which may not have been used for hundreds or even thousands of years. You see birds, ostriches, gazelles coming back, even sorts of amphibians coming back," he said. "The trend has continued for more than 20 years. It is indisputable."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030509084556.htm
Greenhouse Gas Might Green Up The Desert; Weizmann Institute Study Suggests That Rising Carbon Dioxide Levels Might Cause Forests To Spread Into Dry Environments

Jim D
January 12, 2013 7:17 am

davidmhoffer, my comment was along the lines of “follow the money”. Who gets the benefit if the farms are more productive. You say the farmers won’t gain beause supply and demand means the food prices will come down. OK, obviously it won’t if the global population is grows more than 10%, so nobody sees the reduced costs except the farmers, and it can’t be factored in to mitigating climate change costs. This still leaves the government with costs to pay and no funds to pay for it, because cheaper corn doesn’t help them much when they have to build sea-walls. See the disconnect?

beng
January 12, 2013 7:24 am

***
Climate Ace says:
January 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm
I think I will stick with the views of those scientists in BOM and CSIRO whom I know personally (I am not a climate scientist).
***
Naturally you have to support your personal friends no matter what — it’s just the right thing to do. To do otherwise would just be……..heresy.

Richard M
January 12, 2013 7:51 am

Climate Ace and his “whip smart” buddies suffer from the typical arrogance we see among “believers”. They are sad victims of the old adage that goes something like this… “he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it(s failures)”.
About 50 years ago there was a revolution in medical research. It was called double blind studies. Today almost no medical research is accepted without these studies. Why is that? Very simple. It turned out the smartest and best researchers still suffered from confirmation bias, group think and a whole host of problems that led to studies that supported their biases. That pretty much fits the current group of climate scientists. And, any individual (yes, you Climate Ace) who ignores the obvious nature of their bias (their jobs are dependent on it) is just as guilty of this arrogance.
We’ve been here before.

davidmhoffer
January 12, 2013 7:59 am

Jim D says:
January 12, 2013 at 7:17 am
davidmhoffer, my comment was along the lines of “follow the money”. Who gets the benefit if the farms are more productive. You say the farmers won’t gain beause supply and demand means the food prices will come down. OK, obviously it won’t if the global population is grows more than 10%
>>>>>>>>>>>>
How old are you? 12? Someone points out that the economic relationship you based your argument on is false, so you add a new factor to equation that has nothing to do with your own argument?
Then you whine about cheaper corn doesn’t help them when they have to build sea walls. Well Jimmy, you have missed the point entirely. It costs 10 times or more to not have to build sea walls as it does to build them, and that is on the assumption that spending the money to not have to build them can possibly work in the first place.
See the disconnect?
Don’t bother to reply, I’m certain you don’t.

Jim D
January 12, 2013 8:15 am

davidmhoffer, we agree on something. It costs ten times more if you don’t build the defenses against climate change. I will leave it at that. Mitigation is better than adaptation costwise.

davidmhoffer
January 12, 2013 8:17 am

Climate Ace knows some whip smart people and he’s going with their opinion on the science. Gosh, I know some whip smart people who have the opposite view, and I’m going with them. Now what happens when one of us is introduced to some of the whip smart people that the other one knows. How does that work Climate Ace? Do we become conflicted? Resort to having no opinion at all? Or do we choose to believe one set of whip smart people and not the other based on…..what? Coin flip?
What you have chosen Climate Ace, is to abdicate any responsibility to think for yourself.
As for your response to me about a single example being the exception to the rule, you have it precisely backwards. My example is the rule, NY DEFINITION. The entire carbon credits system works by paying poor people and poor countries to NOT use fossil fuels so that those of us who live in rich countries can continue to use fossil fuel. My example illustrates the hardship this places on the poor in developing nations, and it is the rule, not the exception. My example illustrates the massive amount of human labour that is required to replace a tiny gasoline engine that can be run for pennies a day. My example also illustrates the disproportional amount of money the victims of carbon credit system get versus the people who administer them. The entire carbon credit system is the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor.
As for your blathering on about BAU, apparently you seem to think that Business As Usual is the same thing as no change. That isn’t what it means. We’ve been in a BAU world for centuries. Business As Usual REQUIRES CHANGE. Do you think BAU means no new products, no new techniques, no new development? It means the opposite of that. BAU means we keep on coming up with better ways of doing things, inventing new products, developing new resources, improving efficiency, expanding education systems, improving human rights, establishing the rule of law. THAT is what BAU you means, THAT is what we’ve been doing for centuries and THAT is what has lifted billions out of poverty and THAT is what will lift billions more out of poverty.
Unless we’re stupid enough to listen to idiots like Climate Ace who want to stop BAU by ensuring that the poor stay poor in order to save them from being poor.

TimC
January 12, 2013 8:31 am

Doug Huffman said: “re social cost … SCOTUS first addressed imputed income value in Helvering v. Independent”.
I don’t think that Helvering was concerned with “social cost” at all (if I have meaning correctly – it doesn’t seem well defined which perhaps explains why it is generally shown in quotes). Helvering decided that tax could not be levied on a notional rental income imputed from living in or occupying one’s own house or land – or more generally from resources already owned, such as the case of a farm owner living from the produce of his own land and labour.
Whatever it might be I don’t think using resources already owned is a “social cost” – which presumably refers to some (alleged) cost to society at large. However, Willis (and the markets) seems to show here that there is no real cost at all – if anything, a benefit.

davidmhoffer
January 12, 2013 8:34 am

Jim D says:
January 12, 2013 at 8:15 am
davidmhoffer, we agree on something. It costs ten times more if you don’t build the defenses against climate change. I will leave it at that. Mitigation is better than adaptation costwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Apparently you are afflicted with a reading comprehension problem as well. Read what I said again, carefully. If you still think we agree, then your comprehension problem may be permanent and irreversible.

mpainter
January 12, 2013 9:04 am

Jim D says:
January 12, 2013 at 8:15 am
davidmhoffer, we agree on something. It costs ten times more if you don’t build the defenses against climate change. I will leave it at that. Mitigation is better than adaptation costwise.
==============================
Talk about mitigation is foolish drivel. AGW theory and climate models have been refuted by the last sixteen years temperature record. I will leave it at that.

Vince Causey
January 12, 2013 9:14 am

Claude Harvey:
“n the event there is anyone out there is who is puzzled to note that it is very difficult to find even a single, one-world-socialist anywhere who does not swear fealty to AGW theory regardless of hard facts, there is a reason:
AGW is the granddaddy of all “transfer-the-wealth, centralized-control-of-everything” mechanisms ever invented by man.”
This is true, but the strange thing is that the wealth is being transfered from the poor to the wealthy. Traditionally, this is something that socialists protested against. I suppose the meaning of socialism is changing to control-the-masses.

mpainter
January 12, 2013 9:15 am

Climate Ace says:
January 11, 2013 at 10:45 pm
Since everyone seems to have missed it, I will take the liberty of reposting a key paragraph:
This line is taken by luminaries such as Lomberg and Moncton. IMHO, they have failed miserably because they demonstrate a complete inability to address threshold AGW issues, non-linear AGW issues, or to provide a time frame for their ‘demonstrations’. RIRO.
================================
Intelligent people ignore gobbledegoop and obscurities.