Guest post by Alec Rawls
When he argues that a reduction in forcing will cause cooling Dana Nuccitelli is not actually talking about drinking. He is talking about the solar forcing of global temperature, but the drinking analogy is a handy way to understand where his argument goes off the rails.
Mr. Nuccitelli, who blogs for the consensus-approved Skeptical Science website, was writing about Henrik Svensmark’s GCR-cloud theory of indirect solar forcing, where Galactic Cosmic Rays are hypothesized to seed cloud formation. If Svensmark is right then a strong solar wind, by deflecting some GCR from reaching the earth, in-effect blows some of the clouds away, letting more sunlight through to warm the planet’s surface.
That can’t possibly explain late 20th century warming says Nuccitelli, because GCR deflection has been estimated (see the Krivova-Solanki graph above) to have peaked by 1980. The raw data suggests the actual GCR minimum was ten years later, but set that aside. Nuccitelli thinks it is the change in the level of forcing, not the level of forcing, that determines whether the climate system warms or cools:
So, if GCRs really do amplify the solar influence on global temperatures, since 1980 they are amplifying a cooling effect.
Cooling begins when a forcing passes its peak? Fail. Daily temperatures don’t start falling at noon. They continue rising until mid-afternoon. The hottest time of the year isn’t the first day of summer (the summer solstice, after which the days start getting shorter), the hottest time is mid-summer. To think cooling should start when forcing passes its peak is like thinking you can sober up by drinking just a little more slowly.
Here’s a tip for Dana to keep in mind on New Year’s eve: it is the level of alcohol forcing that matters. If you are drinking alcohol faster than you body is excreting it (not exactly the way the earth excretes heat, but similar enough), then your blood alcohol is rising. You are getting drunker, even if you have lowered the rate of your drinking! That’s right, putting a little less rum in your egg nog will not sober you up! Your increasing inebriation will just be a little less rapid, and it is the same for solar forcing.
When the peak level of forcing appears in the rearview mirror, the downward trend in the forcing that begins at that point does not cause cooling. It just causes warming to be a little less rapid. Only when the energy pouring into the climate system falls to the level of the energy escaping back out does the system stop warming. Empirically, that turns out to be mid-afternoon, mid-summer, and approximately the first decade of the 21st century.
Three blind mice
Dana Nuccitelli produced one of three widely cited rebuttals to my suggestion that a new sentence that was added to the Second Order Draft of AR5, a sentence that admits strong evidence for some substantial mechanism of solar amplification, is a “game changer.” That admission is on page 7-43 of the SOD:
Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system … The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.
That’s a game changer because the only solar forcing included in the IPCC computer models is the very slight variance in solar irradiance (also known as TSI, or “the solar constant”). If there are other solar forcings in play, working through variables that actually vary substantially as solar activity ramps up and down, that kills the report’s key finding (on page 8-4) that we can have “very high confidence that natural forcing is a small fraction of the anthropogenic forcing.”
The two most widely cited rebuttals, which I answered last week, were both by lead authors from the IPCC. Steven Sherwood, one of 15 lead authors of chapter 7, pretended that the admission of evidence for “an amplifying mechanism” was only about GCR-cloud. He then proceeded to claim that the evidence for GCR-cloud points to a weak mechanism, and used that as a grounds for dismissing the idea that any substantial solar forcing beyond TSI could be at work.
Doesn’t follow. The evidence for “an amplifying mechanism” (emphasis added) is entirely separate from the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism. The former is paleo evidence, where numerous studies of the geologic record have found strong correlations between solar activity and climate going back many thousands of years. The evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism is from cloud-chamber experiments and ongoing observations of cloud micro-physics.
It doesn’t matter how unconvinced Sherwood is by the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism. That evidence does nothing to counter the paleo evidence, cited in the draft report, that some mechanism of enhanced solar forcing must be at work. By using his discontent with the GCR-cloud theory as an excuse to dismiss the paleo evidence, Sherwood is inverting the scientific method, and he is lying to the public about what the report says, making him a seriously bad guy.
Apparently weak minds think alike because Nuccitelli did the same thing Sherwood did, only a day earlier. Dana’s post only looks at the GCR-cloud mechanism and completely ignores the draft report’s admission of strong evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification. It is in the context of that more fundamental mistake that Nuccitelli goes on to completely misinterpret the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism itself, claiming that anything less than peak forcing causes cooling, arguing in-effect that he can sober up by drinking a little slower. Just tell that to the officer Dana. He won’t even need to give you a breathalyzer.
More evidence that weak minds think alike is the second semi-official rebuttal to my “game change” claim, issued by Joanna Haigh, a lead author of the IPCC’s third report. Haigh proceeds on the same dishonest pretence as Sherwood, telling NewScientist magazine that the new sentence in the draft report is only about GCR-cloud, which she then dismisses with the same drinking-game mistake that Dana makes, claiming that if climate were being driven by solar activity then the planet would have started cooling when solar activity was at its peak:
Haigh points out that the sun actually began dimming slightly in the mid-1980s, if we take an average over its 11-year cycle, so fewer GCRs should have been deflected from Earth and more Earth-cooling clouds should have formed. “If there were some way cosmic rays could be causing global climate change, it should have started getting colder after 1985.”
Sober up Joanna. Have a single shot instead of a double. Works every time.
Which theory has more trouble with flat 21st century temperatures?
It is amusing how Dana Nuccitelli, through sheer incompetence, was able to prefigure the highly credentialed malfeasance of both of these IPCC fraudsters. Still, Nuccitelli has to be credited with at least a bit of misfeasance of his own because he wasn’t satisfied with just assuring his gullible readers that cooling commences when forcing is at its peak. That only supplied an excuse for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming, leaving the conspicuous lack of 21st century warming still to be dealt with. Dana’s solution? Pretend that the flat 21st century temperature record militates against a solar driver of climate:
In fact, GCRs reaching Earth recently hit record high levels (Figure 4), yet temperatures are still way up.
Temperatures have merely flattened out, they haven’t gone down yet, and no Skeptical Science reader will ever learn that this is just what the discovered correlations between solar activity and climate predict. The strongest temperature response to a change in solar forcing is seen with a lag of about ten years (Usoskin et al. 2005), or one solar cycle (Solheim et al. 2012). The theory that is discomfited by flat 21st century temperatures is the CO2-warming theory, which predicts ever more rapidly increasing temperatures.
Dana might actually think that the flat 21st century temperature record causes trouble for the solar-warming theory but there is no way he can think it causes less trouble for the CO2-warming theory. For him to pretend that 21st century temperatures favor the CO2-warming theory is inexcusably dishonest, but as usual, the professionals are even worse. Note this little gem from the SOD (p. 7-44):
The lack of trend in the cosmic ray intensity over the last 50 years (Agee et al., 2012; McCracken and Beer, 2007) provides another strong argument against the hypothesis of a major contribution of cosmic rays to ongoing climate change.
That’s 15 IPCC lead authors all accepting the crackpot idea that you can only get drunk if your rate of drinking is going up. Steady exposure to the high 1950’s level of solar activity will keep you from warming, just as steady swilling of a high level of booze will keep you stone-cold sober. But where Dana only said that “temperatures are still way up” (implicitly acknowledging that they are no longer going up), the draft report here claims that temperatures are still going up (“ongoing climate change”).
Must be a Steven Sherwood sentence. He needs to look at page 10-3 of the SOD (emphasis added):
While the trend in global mean temperature since 1998 is not significantly different from zero, it is also consistent with natural variability superposed on the long-term anthropogenic warming trends projected by climate models.
Note that the “consistent with natural variability” part is a near call, after NOAA admitted in 2008 that 15 years of no warming would falsify current models. But yeah, let’s pretend it is the solar theory that has trouble with the lack of recent warming.
The Guardian, Andrew Sullivan, DeSmog, Romm etcetera, all pwned by Dana Nuccitelli’s error-filled AR5 post
The ensuing Skeptical Science newsletter bragged about how many eco-propagandists picked up on nutty Nuccitelli’s non-stop nonsense and the list is indeed impressive, a glaring testament to the total absence of due diligence on the part of these “journalists,” none of whom thought to question Dana’s advice on how to sober up quick. Here is the SkS tally of eco-scalps:
This was a very big week for SkS in the news. Dana’s IPCC Draft Report Leaked, Shows Global Warming is NOT Due to the Sun was re-posted and/or linked to by The Guardian, New York Times Green, New York Times Dot Earth, Huffington Post, Climate Progress, Mother Jones, Climate Crocks, Carbon Brief, Grist, Daily Beast, DeSmogBlog, Graham Readfearn, Der Spiegel, Maribo, Learn from Nature, Alternative Energy in the 21st Century, and Motherboard. It was also Tweeted by Michael Mann and Chris Mooney, among many others.
The only “consensus” journalist on this list who showed any integrity was Andrew Revkin, who had already written a post on my leak of the draft report. After updating that post with a link to Nuccitelli, Revkin updated again later with a link to the rebuttal that Jo Nova and I wrote about Seven Sherwood. Thanks Andrew, for being an actual journalist.
To put their “big week” in perspective the folks at Credulous Science reached high for sufficient words:
Winston Churchill once said: “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” Not this time; we got the truth’s pants on in record time and nipped this myth in the bud before the contrarians were able to misinform the public.
The “truth” in their rendering is whatever patent falsehoods can be used to fool the ignorant into thinking they should fear CO2. No, nutty ones. You did not forge an exception to Churchill’s dictum. You provided a textbook example of it.
Dana is a poster child for those who feel a moral imperative to “believe the scientists”
For the last two years I have had a lot of fun exposing the large number of top climate scientists who claim that it is not the level of forcing that causes warming, but the trend in the forcing. They are all looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).
Given the enormous pressure on the eco-left to accept what these government-funded climatologists are saying it is not surprising that someone like Dana Nuccitelli would swallow the idea that temperature really is driven by the trend in the forcing, and one super-wacky segment in Dana’s post indicates that he really is accepting that this is how physics works. If you leave a pot of water on a steady flame it won’t heat. If you want to heat the water you have to keep turning the flame up. The segment is titled, “Physical Reality Intrudes on Rawls”:
Rawls has argued to the contrary by claiming that the climate is still responding to the increase in solar activity from the early 20th century, and that GCRs are amplifying that solar warming from over 60 years ago. This argument is simply physically wrong. As Figure 2 illustrates, when solar activity rises, temperatures follow suit very soon thereafter. In fact, during the mid-20th century, solar activity and global surface temperatures both flattened out. Are we to believe that the planet suddenly began responding to the pre-1950 solar activity increase in 1975—2012, after not warming 1940—1975? The argument makes no physical sense.
Obviously I never said that late 20th century warming was caused by solar activity from the early 20th century and Dana does not give a citation for what argument of mine he is referring to but its easy to figure out. I have argued many times that if one combines the strong paleo correlations between solar activity and climate with the fact that solar activity was at what Ilya Usoskin calls “grand maximum” levels from 1920 to 2000 then it is certainly plausible that much of 20th century warming, including late 20th century warming, could have been caused by the sun. 80 years of a high level of enhanced solar forcing just might warm the place up a bit (and it only did warm a bit, about 0.8 °C over the century).
If I am attributing late 20th century warming to the high solar activity that persisted through 2000, why does Dana think I am attributing it to solar forcings from 60 years earlier? He must be fixed on the idea that only a change in the level of solar forcing can cause warming. That’s what all of these top scientists have been telling everyone and there was no rise in solar activity after 1950, hence any solar-caused warming would have to stem from the pre-1950 rise in solar activity.
But come on Dana. That is not what I am saying. That is what they are saying, and I have been trying my darnedest to expose it as a blatant misrepresentation. I’m not attributing late 20th century warming to the pre-1950 rise in solar activity. I’m attributing it to the fact that solar activity remained at close to the same high 1950’s level until 2000 (or 2003). It is the level of the forcing that causes warming, not the trend in the forcing.
I have to feel bad for Dana on this point. It isn’t his fault. He has been systematically duped by this parade of so-called scientists all telling him that a persistent high level of forcing can’t cause continued warming. Makes me want to put him on a milk carton. The poor guy isn’t just lost, he was kidnapped. Want a piece of candy little boy? Credulous Science indeed.

@lsvalgaard (December 30, 2012 at 4:12 am)
Do not ever address me again.
REPLY: Paul, take a deep breath, and step away from the keyboard a few days. – Anthony
lsvalgaard says:
December 30, 2012 at 3:04 am
…….
You do sometime write a bit of nonsense.
Yes I said
– 21.3 years (Hale cycle) period is the primary component in the both solar and Earth magnetic variability.
And I will say that again.
Polar magnetic fields change polarity sign every ~10.6 years, making it a 21.3 year cycle
Sunspots change magnetic polarity sign every ~10.6 years, making it a 21.3 year cycle
For the Earth’s magnetic field main variable component (year to century scale) is at 21.3 years.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/HC.htm
But for the Aa index which has no sign (always a positive number) main component is at ~10.6 year.
Now you are denying that the Aa index is related to solar magnetic cycles…
Rubbish.
Once I find something is imbedded in the data, I shall make a point of it, I don’t need your approval whether to do it or not.
vukcevic says:
December 30, 2012 at 4:46 am
Yes I said
Here is what you said [and my responses]:
vukcevic says:
December 29, 2012 at 11:24 am
Thus the Earth magnetic field differentiates between odd and even cycles.
CMEs don’t behave like that. There is no difference between even and odd cycles: http://www.leif.org/research/Even-Odd-Dst.png
vukcevic says:
December 29, 2012 at 2:27 pm
NASA thinks differently, and I assume they know what they are talking about
It seems not. […] When you look at 100 years of data you find that there is no difference between even and odd cycles as far as the impact of CMEs is concerned: http://www.leif.org/research/Even-Odd-Dst.png so the expectation is wrong.
So, your idea of even/odd cycles is wrong and the notion of giving even and odd cycles different signed sunspot numbers nonsense. Now you are trying to creep back, thinking that the tiny 22-variation in aa and Dst which I explained back in 1978 and which change at maximum rather than at minimum is a primary solar influence. Well, it is not. It is barely detectable.
I don’t need your approval whether to do it or not
When you fail or misinterpret the data, I let you know. Experience shows that you are impervious to learning, so my effort is probably of little impact [just like the 22-yr variation].
leif svalgaard says
UV creates the ionosphere. The day-night cycle results in an electric current about 110 km up. This current has a [small] magnetic effect which we can measure on the ground [was discovered in 1722 by George Graham]. We have kept track of that ever since and the result is that the UV radiation from the Sun [whatever its variability within a cycle is] does not have any long-term trend since then.
Henry says
You still did not get it. I will try one more time. I explained to you the reactions happening on TOA.
What comes through on earth in UV is constant exactly because of the reason that more (certain type) UV causes (manufactures) more ozone, peroxides and nitrous oxides instead ,which subsequently back radiate another portion of far UV that would otherwise have heated the oceans (as water has absorption there)
So, now that ozone & others are increasing (leaving that UV that you measure at ground level the same!) we are cooling.
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
there is no other mechanism that would otherwise explain the facts that I am seeing happening.
HenryP says:
December 30, 2012 at 5:52 am
there is no other mechanism that would otherwise explain the facts that I am seeing happening.
Perhaps you are just seeing things. I wonder how many people would agree with you. Let them speak up now.
Henry says
You still did not get it. I will try one more time. I explained to you the reactions happening on TOA.
What comes through on earth in UV is constant
What determines the conductivity in the ionosphere 100-150 km up [not on Earth] is solar UV, so, indeed, I don’t get what you are trying to say [and I think that is how it should be].
Dr.S.
Well you can deny it as long as you wish, but the AMO and some other indices show and respond directly to the magnetic polarity/oscillations.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NV.htm and
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AMO-recon.htm
Data is there, you know it, eventually sooner or later you will be proven wrong.
vukcevic says:
December 30, 2012 at 6:33 am
Well you can deny it as long as you wish, but the AMO and some other indices show and respond directly to the magnetic polarity/oscillations.
It should rather be phrased as you have not to my satisfaction shown that there is any meaningful or fruitful connection. Certainly you have fooled yourself and may happily live forevermore in that paradise.
Paul, I understand why Anthony tries to calm you down, but be assured I feel sympathy for your emotions.
Chris
Leif, you said “If there is no trend over 170 years but there is a trend in climate, the argument that the sun is responsible weakens.” I thought all of the solar factors were related (solar wind, solar UV, etc) to each other and to this measurement: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-1844-now.png If solar changes didn’t warm us from the LIA that means we need another explanation. I do not believe that explanation is CO2 or CO2 equivalent (e.g. deforestation) because the manmade changes in CO2 prior to the 1940’s are too small. There are possible natural explanations like long term ocean circulation changes and volcanoes.
It seems to me that integrating the Ap index above and below some average (e.g. 12) can start to explain some of the warming and cooling in the 20th century. That is in conjunction with other factors like slow steady CO2 warming and longer term oceanic trends. The atmospheric heat engines explanation for stability of the earth’s climate (specifically convection meridional cells) can account for factors that are not cyclical whether solar or terrestrial. For example if the Ap stays high for an extended period the heat engines limit the warming subject to other factors that control them.
markx says:
December 29, 2012 at 7:05 pm
…..Science funding and research grants are still needed …. we just need to be careful it is not part of a system that automatically points everything in the one direction…..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Neither the EU or the USA can afford government ‘grant money’ Thanks to CAGW, WTO and the bankers we are bankrupt in all except name. In the USA we are not creating enough ‘wealth’ that is producing tangible goods via manufacturing, mining, forestry and Agriculture, to be able to provide grants. Our ever increasing trade deficit is proof of this.
On top of that academia is infested with a useless self-perpetuating ideology. We have a whole generation training in useless ‘green’ ‘environmental’ and ‘sustainability’ careers with a heavy flavoring of hatred for capitalism. Only a good swift kick out the door into the real world will cure that and it is the academics from kindergarten up that need that boot. As it is now it is the kids graduating with a rotten work ethic and even worse useless skills that are paying for the mistakes made by their advisors and teachers. It is time for those insulated in their ivory towers to pay instead.
The dead end kids: The number of young Americans without a job has exploded to 53.4 percent — a post-World War II high, according to the Labor Dept….
The U.S. unemployment rate is reported as 7.8% and falling in the news although it is actually between 23% to 24% and rising. However it is new workers who are hit the worse because they have nothing to offer business.
The work categories that are employing young workers are:
#1 Leisure and Hospitality ~ 37%
#2 Wholesale and Retail Trade (shop clerks and sales reps) ~ 27%
#3 Health and Education ~ 12%
#4 Professional, business & other services ~ 9%
On the very bottom of the list are Ag plus mining, manufacturing, construction, information, transportation and financial. ALL those are under 5% and those first four are the categories that produce this nations wealth. As I keep saying we have become a nation of shop keepers and burger flippers and it is not a ‘sustainable’ (I hate that word) mix. Without a solid foundation of mining, manufacturing and agriculture you just can not support the frills like Leisure, Hospitality, Health and Education where 50% of these new jobs are.
“When we pass the tax boundary…. my best guess is that the train goes off the tracks and we get our worst nightmare of a severe “double dip” recession…. If we do not act, the result will be a crash in tax receipts once the surge is past. If you thought deficits and unemployment have been bad lately, you ain’t seen nothing yet.” ~ top economist Arthur Laffer
leif says
perhaps you are just seeing things
henry says
I am seeing this winter in western Europe
http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=winter42.wpl&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fxa.yimg.com%2Fkq%2Fgroups%2F21524100%2F12735163%2Fname%2Fwinter42.wpl&ei=zpnYULnHFoGV0QWiqYDIDg&usg=AFQjCNHrFgVwHqxPBwLeTxbtc-3hGjHq_g&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.d2k
happening again in 1942 +88 = 2030
mark my words.
eric1skeptic says:
December 30, 2012 at 6:58 am
If solar changes didn’t warm us from the LIA that means we need another explanation. I do not believe that explanation is CO2 or CO2 equivalent (e.g. deforestation) because the manmade changes in CO2 prior to the 1940′s are too small. There are possible natural explanations like long term ocean circulation changes and volcanoes.
Yes there are such other natural explanations. That solar activity and CO2 cannot alone explain the climate variation is evident from http://www.leif.org/research/Global-Temp-TSI-Since-1600.png
There is no doubt solar ‘wiggles’ of the order of a tenth of a degree, but they can hardly be said to be ‘major drivers’ of our climate.
Gail Combs says:
December 30, 2012 at 7:03 am
Only a good swift kick out the door into the real world …
Well, here is such a kick for you: did you look at the sunspot drawing http://www.specola.ch/drawings/2012/loc-d20121229.JPG to count the spots yourself and compare with the official count? Or are you like the people that refused to look through Galilieo’s telescope to avoid seeing the wonders he saw?
Vukcevic
– 21.3 years (Hale cycle) period is the primary component in the both solar and Earth magnetic variability.
And Jupiter-Earth-Venus driving it all: http://virakkraft.com/EMB-AM.png
Changing the orbital speed leading to a rotation speed gradient through the inner of the objects.
Chris Schoneveld says:
December 30, 2012 at 6:47 am
Paul, I understand why Anthony tries to calm you down, but be assured I feel sympathy for your emotions.
so do I. It must be terrible to be so frustrated by exposure to inconvenient facts.
Years ago, I heard the expression “self-eating watermelon”, which seems to apply to our current and worsening economic structure. In effect, we have taxation on each swirl of internal “wealth” as it passes between providers of “services”. As we clean each others’ toilets, the amount that has to be allocated to health, education and welfare (call it “entitlements”) rapidly erodes the initial pool.
Somehow, the use of the term “educators” in place of “teachers” seems very 1984-ish.
Unless we export commodities and the products of knowledge-based industries in an amount greater than the amount we spend outside our own economic bloc, we’ll eventually become another Greece or Spain. To think that all that money from the Rockefellers, Soros and others is being channeled toward efforts to kill natural resource development and exports seems like a travesty of the highest order. What else is there? Too many lawyers, too few engineers and real scientists, too little reality in politics. The climate will continue to change; I worry more about political forces destroying the future for my grandkids.
Having left the computer last night about halfway through this thread, I returned this morning. Shocked, I must say. The level of discourse has decreased considerably – nearly back to 9th grade terminology. Meaning, of course, 9th grade when I was in 9th grade. Perhaps that would be 5th or 6th grade now?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I might point out that folks responsible for data series frequently change data when appropriate. What was wrong and how it is corrected needs to be explained. When so, what’s the problem? Recall how a missing ‘m’ can result in a minus temperature of 15 becoming a plus temperature of 15 [delta t = 30] . Would it not be appropriate to have those incorrect data points changed?
@ur momisugly 5:52 am HenryP says
“. . . now that ozone & others are increasing . . .”
That’s a bit vague. Can you expand and provide context? Thanks.
Mr.Methane says
The climate will continue to change;
Henry says
true. it is going to get colder.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/28/dana-nuccitellis-holiday-trick-for-sobering-up-quick-put-a-little-less-rum-in-your-egg-nog/#comment-1185459
December 30, 2012 at 7:08 am
leif says
perhaps you are just seeing things
henry says
I am seeing this winter in western Europe
Here is the report for near where I live. What is seen here?
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/climate/temp_graphs.php?stn=KYKM&submit=Change+Station&wfo=pdt
The month of December is on the upper right.
John F. Hultquist says:
December 30, 2012 at 8:46 am
I might point out that folks responsible for data series frequently change data when appropriate. What was wrong and how it is corrected needs to be explained. When so, what’s the problem?
In case of the sunspots it is dead-easy to convince oneself what the problem is. Take any drawing from Locarno http://www.specola.ch/e/drawings.html e.g. from yesterday http://www.specola.ch/drawings/2012/loc-d20121229.JPG or made by Sergio Cortesi [observer since 1957] http://www.specola.ch/drawings/2012/loc-d20121105.JPG
Simply count the spots and compare with the official counts given in the upper right. A counting rule: if there are several black spots within the gray penumbra, count each spot.
It seems that the whiners have gone quiet on this.As I mentioned to Gail: don’t be like the people who refused to look through Galileo’s telescope.
John – You can also try to count and report your result here for the two cases.
John says “. . . now that ozone & others are increasing . . .”
That’s a bit vague. Can you expand and provide context? Thanks.
Henry@John
You can try following the discussion here: (below the graphs)
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
if you do not get the hints and clues given there, try understand what I said here
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2011/08/11/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-aug-2011/
Leif Svalgaard says:
“Which are based on obsolete datasets of solar activity. Before you make such conclusions, it might be a good idea to examine the evidence: http://www.leif.org/research/Solar-Petaluma–How%20Well%20Do%20We%20Know%20the%20SSN.pdf”
Dr. Svalgaard, I am deeply disturbed by the approach taken in the above report to correct older observations (for example by multiplying them by 1.2, page 8) to bring them in line with modern observations . Please do NOT do that. Unfurtunately the same approach seems to be taken on the aa index as well.
We are all familiar (from the experience with global temperature data sets) with the dangers of correcting actual older observations, then years later correcting the ‘corrected’ data set, then years later ‘losing’ the original observations (not necesarily due to malfeasance but simply because they are no longer in much use) which however are still vital for analysis.
Also this specific correction does not makes no sense. During a period of ~60 years (a small time period) the ‘Waldmeier’ method was used, which recently it was dropped and they are back to using the old method. And the approach you propose is to modify the entire record prior to 1950 and post ~2000 to match that small segment? In my opinion it woud be much better to correct that Waldmeier anomaly of 1950-2000 rather than the entire record.
If historical continuity is desired, I think a better approach to correcting older observations would be to reduce the fidelity of newer observations to match older observations, not try to modify the entire pror data set to match new conditions. What about when even better telescopes come around? will the entire data set need to be re-corrected? This goes to the point that lost information cannot be recreated, but new information can always be removed. For example if it is desired to account for the effects of going from the Wolf 37 mmx20 telescope to the Wolfer 80mmx64 (or a more modern telescope) I could envision that it would be easy and simple to create a filter that would reduce the fidelity of the more modern image to the older one, and then count the spots as it would have been done then.
This of course implies that two or more sunspot historical record would be kept, One of ‘low fidelity’ dating to the 1700’s to modern times having a historical continuity, and a newer ones dating from the 50’s or 80’s that have more information, but lack the historical continuity,
Regarding your point (I’m paraphrasing) that the sun does not influence climate as there has been no ‘grand maximum’, nor a long term trend for 300 years, that simply doesn’t make sense. You seem to ignore the Maunder minimum, the tail end of which is shown at the begining of your graph, the Dalton minimum shown clearly in your graph ~1800-1825, some smaller decrease ~1875-1900 and the recent decrease post 2000, where the first two sunspot decreases clearly had an effect on world temperatures. In general a lack of long term trend does not imply a lack of local modulation.
Besides… why stop at 1710? (300 hundred years ago) why not go back to 1600? the long term trend would certainly change then.
Leif disappears Maunder from the temperature record http://www.leif.org/research/Global-Temp-TSI-Since-1600.png
lsvalgaard says:
December 30, 2012 at 9:25 am
Leif,
Over the past year, I have read your papers and looked at the slides. I do not have a problem with your SSN corrections. I believe you did explain what was wrong. The international effort toward corrections make sense to me. So, not a problem for me. I was wondering why others think this should not be done. Sorry if my comment was misleading.