Guest post by Alec Rawls
When he argues that a reduction in forcing will cause cooling Dana Nuccitelli is not actually talking about drinking. He is talking about the solar forcing of global temperature, but the drinking analogy is a handy way to understand where his argument goes off the rails.
Mr. Nuccitelli, who blogs for the consensus-approved Skeptical Science website, was writing about Henrik Svensmark’s GCR-cloud theory of indirect solar forcing, where Galactic Cosmic Rays are hypothesized to seed cloud formation. If Svensmark is right then a strong solar wind, by deflecting some GCR from reaching the earth, in-effect blows some of the clouds away, letting more sunlight through to warm the planet’s surface.
That can’t possibly explain late 20th century warming says Nuccitelli, because GCR deflection has been estimated (see the Krivova-Solanki graph above) to have peaked by 1980. The raw data suggests the actual GCR minimum was ten years later, but set that aside. Nuccitelli thinks it is the change in the level of forcing, not the level of forcing, that determines whether the climate system warms or cools:
So, if GCRs really do amplify the solar influence on global temperatures, since 1980 they are amplifying a cooling effect.
Cooling begins when a forcing passes its peak? Fail. Daily temperatures don’t start falling at noon. They continue rising until mid-afternoon. The hottest time of the year isn’t the first day of summer (the summer solstice, after which the days start getting shorter), the hottest time is mid-summer. To think cooling should start when forcing passes its peak is like thinking you can sober up by drinking just a little more slowly.
Here’s a tip for Dana to keep in mind on New Year’s eve: it is the level of alcohol forcing that matters. If you are drinking alcohol faster than you body is excreting it (not exactly the way the earth excretes heat, but similar enough), then your blood alcohol is rising. You are getting drunker, even if you have lowered the rate of your drinking! That’s right, putting a little less rum in your egg nog will not sober you up! Your increasing inebriation will just be a little less rapid, and it is the same for solar forcing.
When the peak level of forcing appears in the rearview mirror, the downward trend in the forcing that begins at that point does not cause cooling. It just causes warming to be a little less rapid. Only when the energy pouring into the climate system falls to the level of the energy escaping back out does the system stop warming. Empirically, that turns out to be mid-afternoon, mid-summer, and approximately the first decade of the 21st century.
Three blind mice
Dana Nuccitelli produced one of three widely cited rebuttals to my suggestion that a new sentence that was added to the Second Order Draft of AR5, a sentence that admits strong evidence for some substantial mechanism of solar amplification, is a “game changer.” That admission is on page 7-43 of the SOD:
Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system … The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.
That’s a game changer because the only solar forcing included in the IPCC computer models is the very slight variance in solar irradiance (also known as TSI, or “the solar constant”). If there are other solar forcings in play, working through variables that actually vary substantially as solar activity ramps up and down, that kills the report’s key finding (on page 8-4) that we can have “very high confidence that natural forcing is a small fraction of the anthropogenic forcing.”
The two most widely cited rebuttals, which I answered last week, were both by lead authors from the IPCC. Steven Sherwood, one of 15 lead authors of chapter 7, pretended that the admission of evidence for “an amplifying mechanism” was only about GCR-cloud. He then proceeded to claim that the evidence for GCR-cloud points to a weak mechanism, and used that as a grounds for dismissing the idea that any substantial solar forcing beyond TSI could be at work.
Doesn’t follow. The evidence for “an amplifying mechanism” (emphasis added) is entirely separate from the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism. The former is paleo evidence, where numerous studies of the geologic record have found strong correlations between solar activity and climate going back many thousands of years. The evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism is from cloud-chamber experiments and ongoing observations of cloud micro-physics.
It doesn’t matter how unconvinced Sherwood is by the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism. That evidence does nothing to counter the paleo evidence, cited in the draft report, that some mechanism of enhanced solar forcing must be at work. By using his discontent with the GCR-cloud theory as an excuse to dismiss the paleo evidence, Sherwood is inverting the scientific method, and he is lying to the public about what the report says, making him a seriously bad guy.
Apparently weak minds think alike because Nuccitelli did the same thing Sherwood did, only a day earlier. Dana’s post only looks at the GCR-cloud mechanism and completely ignores the draft report’s admission of strong evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification. It is in the context of that more fundamental mistake that Nuccitelli goes on to completely misinterpret the evidence for the GCR-cloud mechanism itself, claiming that anything less than peak forcing causes cooling, arguing in-effect that he can sober up by drinking a little slower. Just tell that to the officer Dana. He won’t even need to give you a breathalyzer.
More evidence that weak minds think alike is the second semi-official rebuttal to my “game change” claim, issued by Joanna Haigh, a lead author of the IPCC’s third report. Haigh proceeds on the same dishonest pretence as Sherwood, telling NewScientist magazine that the new sentence in the draft report is only about GCR-cloud, which she then dismisses with the same drinking-game mistake that Dana makes, claiming that if climate were being driven by solar activity then the planet would have started cooling when solar activity was at its peak:
Haigh points out that the sun actually began dimming slightly in the mid-1980s, if we take an average over its 11-year cycle, so fewer GCRs should have been deflected from Earth and more Earth-cooling clouds should have formed. “If there were some way cosmic rays could be causing global climate change, it should have started getting colder after 1985.”
Sober up Joanna. Have a single shot instead of a double. Works every time.
Which theory has more trouble with flat 21st century temperatures?
It is amusing how Dana Nuccitelli, through sheer incompetence, was able to prefigure the highly credentialed malfeasance of both of these IPCC fraudsters. Still, Nuccitelli has to be credited with at least a bit of misfeasance of his own because he wasn’t satisfied with just assuring his gullible readers that cooling commences when forcing is at its peak. That only supplied an excuse for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming, leaving the conspicuous lack of 21st century warming still to be dealt with. Dana’s solution? Pretend that the flat 21st century temperature record militates against a solar driver of climate:
In fact, GCRs reaching Earth recently hit record high levels (Figure 4), yet temperatures are still way up.
Temperatures have merely flattened out, they haven’t gone down yet, and no Skeptical Science reader will ever learn that this is just what the discovered correlations between solar activity and climate predict. The strongest temperature response to a change in solar forcing is seen with a lag of about ten years (Usoskin et al. 2005), or one solar cycle (Solheim et al. 2012). The theory that is discomfited by flat 21st century temperatures is the CO2-warming theory, which predicts ever more rapidly increasing temperatures.
Dana might actually think that the flat 21st century temperature record causes trouble for the solar-warming theory but there is no way he can think it causes less trouble for the CO2-warming theory. For him to pretend that 21st century temperatures favor the CO2-warming theory is inexcusably dishonest, but as usual, the professionals are even worse. Note this little gem from the SOD (p. 7-44):
The lack of trend in the cosmic ray intensity over the last 50 years (Agee et al., 2012; McCracken and Beer, 2007) provides another strong argument against the hypothesis of a major contribution of cosmic rays to ongoing climate change.
That’s 15 IPCC lead authors all accepting the crackpot idea that you can only get drunk if your rate of drinking is going up. Steady exposure to the high 1950’s level of solar activity will keep you from warming, just as steady swilling of a high level of booze will keep you stone-cold sober. But where Dana only said that “temperatures are still way up” (implicitly acknowledging that they are no longer going up), the draft report here claims that temperatures are still going up (“ongoing climate change”).
Must be a Steven Sherwood sentence. He needs to look at page 10-3 of the SOD (emphasis added):
While the trend in global mean temperature since 1998 is not significantly different from zero, it is also consistent with natural variability superposed on the long-term anthropogenic warming trends projected by climate models.
Note that the “consistent with natural variability” part is a near call, after NOAA admitted in 2008 that 15 years of no warming would falsify current models. But yeah, let’s pretend it is the solar theory that has trouble with the lack of recent warming.
The Guardian, Andrew Sullivan, DeSmog, Romm etcetera, all pwned by Dana Nuccitelli’s error-filled AR5 post
The ensuing Skeptical Science newsletter bragged about how many eco-propagandists picked up on nutty Nuccitelli’s non-stop nonsense and the list is indeed impressive, a glaring testament to the total absence of due diligence on the part of these “journalists,” none of whom thought to question Dana’s advice on how to sober up quick. Here is the SkS tally of eco-scalps:
This was a very big week for SkS in the news. Dana’s IPCC Draft Report Leaked, Shows Global Warming is NOT Due to the Sun was re-posted and/or linked to by The Guardian, New York Times Green, New York Times Dot Earth, Huffington Post, Climate Progress, Mother Jones, Climate Crocks, Carbon Brief, Grist, Daily Beast, DeSmogBlog, Graham Readfearn, Der Spiegel, Maribo, Learn from Nature, Alternative Energy in the 21st Century, and Motherboard. It was also Tweeted by Michael Mann and Chris Mooney, among many others.
The only “consensus” journalist on this list who showed any integrity was Andrew Revkin, who had already written a post on my leak of the draft report. After updating that post with a link to Nuccitelli, Revkin updated again later with a link to the rebuttal that Jo Nova and I wrote about Seven Sherwood. Thanks Andrew, for being an actual journalist.
To put their “big week” in perspective the folks at Credulous Science reached high for sufficient words:
Winston Churchill once said: “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” Not this time; we got the truth’s pants on in record time and nipped this myth in the bud before the contrarians were able to misinform the public.
The “truth” in their rendering is whatever patent falsehoods can be used to fool the ignorant into thinking they should fear CO2. No, nutty ones. You did not forge an exception to Churchill’s dictum. You provided a textbook example of it.
Dana is a poster child for those who feel a moral imperative to “believe the scientists”
For the last two years I have had a lot of fun exposing the large number of top climate scientists who claim that it is not the level of forcing that causes warming, but the trend in the forcing. They are all looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).
Given the enormous pressure on the eco-left to accept what these government-funded climatologists are saying it is not surprising that someone like Dana Nuccitelli would swallow the idea that temperature really is driven by the trend in the forcing, and one super-wacky segment in Dana’s post indicates that he really is accepting that this is how physics works. If you leave a pot of water on a steady flame it won’t heat. If you want to heat the water you have to keep turning the flame up. The segment is titled, “Physical Reality Intrudes on Rawls”:
Rawls has argued to the contrary by claiming that the climate is still responding to the increase in solar activity from the early 20th century, and that GCRs are amplifying that solar warming from over 60 years ago. This argument is simply physically wrong. As Figure 2 illustrates, when solar activity rises, temperatures follow suit very soon thereafter. In fact, during the mid-20th century, solar activity and global surface temperatures both flattened out. Are we to believe that the planet suddenly began responding to the pre-1950 solar activity increase in 1975—2012, after not warming 1940—1975? The argument makes no physical sense.
Obviously I never said that late 20th century warming was caused by solar activity from the early 20th century and Dana does not give a citation for what argument of mine he is referring to but its easy to figure out. I have argued many times that if one combines the strong paleo correlations between solar activity and climate with the fact that solar activity was at what Ilya Usoskin calls “grand maximum” levels from 1920 to 2000 then it is certainly plausible that much of 20th century warming, including late 20th century warming, could have been caused by the sun. 80 years of a high level of enhanced solar forcing just might warm the place up a bit (and it only did warm a bit, about 0.8 °C over the century).
If I am attributing late 20th century warming to the high solar activity that persisted through 2000, why does Dana think I am attributing it to solar forcings from 60 years earlier? He must be fixed on the idea that only a change in the level of solar forcing can cause warming. That’s what all of these top scientists have been telling everyone and there was no rise in solar activity after 1950, hence any solar-caused warming would have to stem from the pre-1950 rise in solar activity.
But come on Dana. That is not what I am saying. That is what they are saying, and I have been trying my darnedest to expose it as a blatant misrepresentation. I’m not attributing late 20th century warming to the pre-1950 rise in solar activity. I’m attributing it to the fact that solar activity remained at close to the same high 1950’s level until 2000 (or 2003). It is the level of the forcing that causes warming, not the trend in the forcing.
I have to feel bad for Dana on this point. It isn’t his fault. He has been systematically duped by this parade of so-called scientists all telling him that a persistent high level of forcing can’t cause continued warming. Makes me want to put him on a milk carton. The poor guy isn’t just lost, he was kidnapped. Want a piece of candy little boy? Credulous Science indeed.

I continue to be amazed at the way you solar guys keep looking at obscure solar data, when it is clear that energy-in follows the 88 year Gleisberg cycle,
as charted here,
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
That this cycle/wave exists has been known for a long time,
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2002JA009390/abstract
I have also proven here
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/#comment-215
that most of modern warming can be explained away by this cycle.
it is clear that the mechanism for this cycle/wave must be something like I explained before,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/28/dana-nuccitellis-holiday-trick-for-sobering-up-quick-put-a-little-less-rum-in-your-egg-nog/#comment-1187099
lsvalgaard said:
“For 2009 the average speed was 367 km/s for an Ap of 4.0;
for 1901-1902 the average speed was 308 km/s for an Ap of 4.4.
The differences are not significant.”
Rubbish! that is highly significant for an average over time, and also shows that your claims that the recent low in solar activity was similar to ~100yrs ago are unfounded. Your first reply saying that early in the 20th century the solar wind was ~400km/s was, to be blunt, lying or deceiving or worse.
Of course this low in SW speed had serious impacts on the weather:
“1902 (Summer):
1. The CET value of 14.3degC was low, but not exceptional in this series (about 1C below the all-series mean); however, according to the University of Berne (reported by the RMetS/’Weather’ 2004), this summer across the whole of Europe was the COLDEST in a joint proxy / instrumental series which began in 1500.” http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/1900_1949.htm
Very grave coffee frost, Brazil: http://www.ico.org/frosts_droughts.asp
Leif
So, even if there were a Modern Grand Maximum is wouldn’t make much difference by your argument.
That alone yes, but together with the rest you get something like this: http://virakkraft.com/Steinhilber-TSI-%20Mann08-temp.png
Ulric Lyons says:
January 3, 2013 at 8:30 am
your claims that the recent low in solar activity was similar to ~100yrs ago are unfounded. Your first reply saying that early in the 20th century the solar wind was ~400km/s was, to be blunt, lying or deceiving or worse. Of course this low in SW speed had serious impacts on the weather
Picking a year or two does not make anything significant. Here is a comparison between Ap vs. Solar Wind Speed V for the last 8 years and the first 8 years of the 20th century: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-vs-V.png
The slightly different level between the red [now] and blue [back then] is due to the changing strength of the Earth’s magnetic field which influences the effect of the wind on geomagnetic activity. If anything Ap is even lower now than then. And as I have shown there is no impact on the weather from low solar wind speed.
Your picking of a single summer is just silly.
lgl says:
January 3, 2013 at 9:12 am
That alone yes, but together with the rest you get something like this
with what averaging interval? and using Mann’s hockey stick…
With 150 years you get something like this:
http://www.leif.org/research/Steinhilber-150yr-Loehle-last-2000-yrs.png
lsvalgaard said:
“Picking a year or two does not make anything significant.”
I call the coldest European Summer since 1500AD extremely significant.
“Here is a comparison between Ap vs. Solar Wind Speed V for the last 8 years and the first 8 years of the 20th century: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-vs-V.png”
The average for 1900.5 to 1907.5 on your paper is ~360km/s. How does that compare (in km/s please) to the average for the last 7ys?
“The slightly different level between the red [now] and blue [back then] is due to the changing strength of the Earth’s magnetic field which influences the effect of the wind on geomagnetic activity.”
What, particularly in 1902? I don’t believe a word of it.
“And as I have shown there is no impact on the weather from low solar wind speed.”
No you have not.
“Your picking of a single summer is just silly.”
Virtually every single year of a lack of sighted Aurora in the Silverman paper is accompanied by colder weather.
The average for 1900.5 to 1907.5 on your paper is ~360km/s. How does that compare (in km/s please) to the average for the last 8yrs?
Ulric Lyons says:
January 3, 2013 at 11:04 am
The average for 1900.5 to 1907.5 on your paper is ~360km/s. How does that compare (in km/s please) to the average for the last 7ys?
416 km/s
I don’t believe a word of it.
I’m not asking you to believe anything. Doesn’t matter what you believe.
Virtually every single year of a lack of sighted Aurora in the Silverman paper is accompanied by colder weather.
Virtually? And look at his Figure 3 and see the auroral count during the Maunder Minimum.
Ulric Lyons says:
January 3, 2013 at 11:15 am
The average for 1900.5 to 1907.5 on your paper is ~360km/s. How does that compare (in km/s please) to the average for the last 8yrs?
since 2005: 423 km/s and temp anomaly was +0.47 degrees
And another data point: for 1973-75 the speed was 500 km/s and the temp anomaly was -0.10 degrees, so comparing short intervals [or a single summer, yikes!] has little meaning.
Leif
with what averaging interval? and using Mann’s hockey stick…
(it’s not Manns hockey stick, it’s Mann 2008, he had learnt a few things then)
That ‘integral’ is made in a different way. It’s the running sum of the whole record, all values minus 5. That probably ‘overtuned’ it but forget the trend, the shape is the important thing. (the Mann curve is a splice of recon and instrument so not real anyway)
More interestingly, I get a total different result from you:
http://virakkraft.com/Loehle-temps-Steinhilber-integral.png
(you should not worry about temps prior to 1300, too few proxies. Loehle does not know the temp in year 500 with 0.2 C accuracy. Different recons show all kinds of temps before yr1000)
The need of a lag using 150 yrs average shows it’s not ‘optimal’. 200 yrs looks much better.
lsvalgaard said:
“And look at his Figure 3 and see the auroral count during the Maunder Minimum.”
Figure 7 is more suitable, and I will next list all the *single* years where little or no Aurora were observed, and compare that land temperature anomalies.
“And another data point: for 1973-75 the speed was 500 km/s and the temp anomaly was -0.10 degrees, so comparing short intervals [or a single summer, yikes!] has little meaning.”
Obviously as the fast SW sped up the trade winds and gave an extended period of La Nina. If we take a look at land temperatures through this period, we find positive deviations from normals.
lgl says:
January 3, 2013 at 12:45 pm
That ‘integral’ is made in a different way. It’s the running sum of the whole record, all values minus 5. That probably ‘overtuned’ it but forget the trend, the shape is the important thing. (the Mann curve is a splice of recon and instrument so not real anyway)
Running sum of the whole record? Makes no sense. So you compare with a curve that is not real? Your are a real moving target here.
you should not worry about temps prior to 1300
Not worry about when your comparison fails?
Not worry about the Medieval warm Period?
Roman optimum, etc?
Ulric Lyons says:
January 3, 2013 at 12:55 pm
I will next list all the *single* years where little or no Aurora were observed, and compare that land temperature anomalies.
list all single years were aurorae were observed and compare those as well.
Leif
It’s the same thing. I subtracted the average for the last period. I could have subtracted a moving average to make it more accurate, pointless with that unreliable data.
There is nothing to compare to before yr 1300. The recons point in all directions. Where is the roman optimum in Loehles? The 200 yrs at 1800-level?
And how did you manage to produce that odd 150-yrs graph? Have you tried 200 yrs?
… and my integral does show the Medieval warm Period.
lgl says:
January 3, 2013 at 2:24 pm
There is nothing to compare to before yr 1300
Yet you claim to see the MWP 🙂
And how did you manage to produce that odd 150-yrs graph? Have you tried 200 yrs?
just plotting the 150-yr trailing moving average.
Here is the 200-yr version:
http://www.leif.org/research/Steinhilber-200yr-average-FFT.png
With a 200-yr average you basically remove all known solar cycles: 11, 22, 88, 120, 200.
What is left is basically power near 1000 years and 2300 years. The same periods as seen by
Obrochta et al http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379112003095
or for full paper: http://www.leif.org/EOS/Obrochta2012.pdf
“Results from the most well-dated, younger interval suggest that the original 1500 ± 500 year cycle may actually be an admixture of the ∼1000 and ∼2000 cycles that are observed within the Holocene at multiple locations. In Holocene sections these variations are coherent with 14C and 10Be estimates of solar variability. Our new results suggest that the “1500-year cycle” may be a transient phenomenon whose origin could be due, for example, to ice sheet boundary conditions for the interval in which it is observed. We therefore question whether it is necessary to invoke such exotic explanations as heterodyne frequencies or combination tones to explain a phenomenon of such fleeting occurrence that is potentially an artifact of arithmetic averaging”
There is no evidence that these are of solar origin. It is much more likely that they are just climate variations which modulate the radionuclide deposition and are mistaken for solar modulation, see discusision here:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1003/1003.4989.pdf
“These and other features suggest that galactic cosmic ray intensity changes which affect the production of 10Be in the Earths atmosphere are not the sole source of the 10Be concentration changes and confirm the importance of other effects, for example local and regional climatic effects, which could be of the same magnitude as the 10Be production changes.”
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1004/1004.2675.pdf
“This is a particular problem for historical projections of solar activity based on ice core measurements which assume a 1:1 correspondence. We have made other tests of the correspondence between the 10Be predictions and the ice core measurements which lead to the same conclusion, namely that other influences on the ice core measurements, as large as or larger than the production changes themselves, are occurring. These influences could be climatic or instrumentally based.”
http://www.leif.org/EOS/2009GL038004.pdf
“A change in atmospheric circulation and transport patterns may bring air masses with varying 10
Be content over longer time scales [to the polar regions]”
lgl your integrated Steinhilber fits to Loehle, Mann 08 look interesting for sure. I have downloaded the data myself and more or less replicated your graphs by adding arbitrary mean offsets prior to integrating. I think it would be interesting to fit an arima model to the Steinhilber data and then use the model for a monte carlo test to see how likely such a fit is to be generated by chance.
Layman Lurker says:
January 3, 2013 at 4:26 pm
I think it would be interesting to fit an arima model to the Steinhilber data and then use the model for a monte carlo test to see how likely such a fit is to be generated by chance.
I don’t think the fit is ‘by chance’. I think it is comparing climate with climate, as there is good evidence [I cited some above] that the radionuclide data is contaminated by climate.
Leif writes “People have scratched and the difference is minute”
Looks to me like the difference is several tenths of a Watt from your own “have a stab at it with minimal data to base it off” graphs. Given ocean warming (the most robust warming measure IMO) is only around 0.6W/m2, I’d say “minute” is the wrong word to be using.
TimTheToolMan says:
January 3, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Leif writes “People have scratched and the difference is minute”
Looks to me like the difference is several tenths of a Watt
The difference in the resulting temperature is about a tenth of a degree. That is minute.
Look carefully at the label on the axes of the left side panels. What does it say?
Leif thanks pointing me to the links in your above comment.
Layman Lurker says:
January 3, 2013 at 7:59 pm
Leif thanks pointing me to the links in your above comment.
You are welcome. The cosmic ray record has great promise once we figure out how the separate the various contributions to it. Which we will with more cores.
Leif
Thanks for confirming my results and what I have said all along. Temps fit the TSI integral, not the TSI (then the dark ages should have enden around 750 and LIA around 1600)
http://virakkraft.com/TSI-integral-climate.png
Only 10% of the last 3000 yrs ‘wrong’ (and the cite in the link is about atlantic, not global)
About the MWP and RWP I’m not saying they are not there, only that the recons are less accurate back then so it makes no sense comparing on an 0.2-0.3 deg C accuracy.
lgl says:
January 4, 2013 at 2:04 pm
Thanks for confirming my results and what I have said all along.
I think this is just confirmation bias. When you remove all known solar cycles, what is left are the 1000-2000 year climate cycles which contaminate the cosmic ray record, so you should not be surprised that you recover that signal. But to explore your opinion a bit more. You would not expect the temperature to go down the next few decades if TSI and solar activity goes down. The change in an integral is just the function being integrated, so if the integral goes down it is because the function goes down.
Dream on Leif.
The temperature to go down the next few decades if TSI and solar activity goes down is exactly what to expect because of the thermal inertia. The integral lags the signal.
Layman Lurker,
How likely such a fit is to be generated by chance?
Very unlikely,
http://virakkraft.com/TSI-integral-Loehle-temp.png