Guest post by Alec Rawls
Dr. Isaac Held, who models fluid dynamics at NOAA, dismisses a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking a 2-box model of ocean equilibration. In his model an upper upper ocean layer (100m or so deep) exhibits a rapid temperature response to any increase in radiative forcing (about 4 years), as has been observed for this part of the ocean. So far so good.
Below sits Held’s second box: the entire rest of the oceans, all modeled as having the same temperature. To see the effect of this highly unrealistic simplification, look at what would happen if an intermediate ocean layer were also modeled, say from 100 to 500 meters in depth. Following a step-up in forcing the rapid temperature response of the upper ocean layer would commence to warm the intermediate ocean layer on some intermediate time scale—from a few decades to a century perhaps—and the decreasing temperature differential between these two layers would decrease the rate of heat loss from the upper layer to the ocean below, causing the upper ocean layer to continue to warm on the decades-to-century time scale.
This is exactly what Held and others are saying will not happen. Their claim is that the 20th century’s persistent high levels of solar forcing could not have caused continued warming and hence cannot be responsible for late 20th century warming. But these claims always rest on unreliable and often unstated assumptions about ocean equilibration. Held’s assumptions are stated, making his example particularly revealing. His argument against solar warming hinges directly on what is unrealistic about his model.
Isaac Held on Raimund Muscheler
My email correspondence with Held began when I cc’d him on my critique of Raimund Muscheler, who had claimed that because the high levels of solar forcing from 1950 to 2000 were “relatively constant,” they were unlikely to cause continued warming:
Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.
This statement by Muscheler was specifically in answer to the possibility of indirect solar forcings that might be much stronger than the slight variation in TSI (Total Solar Insolation). No matter the strength of the forcing Muscheler and others are saying, continued high forcing should not cause continued warming.
Do these people actually think that it is the rate of change in the level of a temperature forcing rather than the level of the forcing that does the forcing? Alternatively, they may be assuming some implausibly rapid ocean equilibration, so that by 1970 or 1980 equilibrium would have been reached, requiring continued forcing of the same magnitude just to maintain that equilibrium.
I thought Held might offer an antidote because at the same meeting that Muscheler had been quoted as dismissing the solar-warming theory, Held had noted that:
“… some 40-70 percent of the [temperature adjustment to a change in forcing] is achieved on a timescale on the order of 4 years, whereas equilibration takes centuries.”
If equilibration takes centuries then it would not have been attained by 1970. Thus continued high levels of forcing should cause continued warming, right?
No, says Held, not in the 2-box model that he was referring to, as he briefly explained to me in his reply:
Alec,
I believe that you have misunderstood my perspective on this. As I have tried to indicate in some of my blog posts, especially #3, 4 and 27, I think the forced temperature response should follow the forcing with only a small time lag (small enough that, in practice, it only affects the volcanic response), despite the existence of long oceanic time scales — the argument being that these deep reservoirs have not warmed enough to significantly affect the heat uptake.
Isaac
As Held puts it in his blog-post #4 (where he introduces his 2-box analysis) the heat capacity of the deeper ocean layer is effectively “infinite” in this model on intermediate time-scales. No matter how much heat gets pumped into the oceans, the deeper ocean layer does not warm significantly over mere decades and so there is no significant reduction in the rate of heat loss from the upper ocean layer. All of the heat that goes into the deeper ocean is regarded as simply disappearing, never to have any effect on upper ocean temperatures except on much longer time scales.
The result is a kind of psuedo-equilibrium where the only thing that will cause further change in the temperature of the upper ocean layer is further change in the level of forcing. Persistent high levels of even a strongly enhanced solar forcing would not cause continued warming of the upper ocean layer in this model. There would just be the rapid temperature response of the upper ocean layer then nothing measurable for generations.
Global Mean Atmospheric Surface Temperature (GMAST) is primarily determined by upper-ocean temperatures, thus according to Held’s 2-box model, where persistent forcing only causes brief warming, the late 20th century increase in GMAST could not have been caused by the high level of solar activity over this period. The highest levels of solar activity were reached in the 50s so the warming effect should have wound down by the 60s. But this 2-box argument turns on the known-to-be-wrong assumption that warming of the upper ocean layer does not warm the next few hundred meters of the ocean any more than it warms the abyss.
Simplified models are fine so long as the insights that are gleaned from them are not driven by the simplifications. For instance, it makes no difference that climate models do not include relativistic effects so long as they are not used to analyze relativistic phenomena, but Held takes this basic principle of science and turns it on its head. His argument that persistent enhanced solar forcing would not cause continued warming turns precisely on the unrealistic simplification that creates his 2-box model. Move just to the next simplest model, a 3-box model, and his argument evaporates. The next ocean layer will warm on intemediate time scales, decreasing the rate of heat loss from the upper layer to the deeper ocean, causing the upper layer to warm.
My second email exchange with Dr. Held
Isaac Held’s remarks to me were very brief and his blog posts are focused on a CO2 driver of late 20th century warming rather than the possibility of a solar driver. I wanted to nail down his position on the latter so I pulled together what his posts seem to imply about solar forcing and asked him to please let me know if I had his position right.
Isaac:
I got a chance to look at the blog posts of yours that you mentioned (3, 4, 6, and 27, and I read a few others too). All very interesting stuff.
On attribution for 20th century warming the focus of these posts is on WMGGs [Well Mixed Greenhouse Gases] and how, by adjusting the climate sensitivity estimate in the GCMs, variation in WMGG can be seen to account pretty well for 20th century temperature history. This doesn’t really get at my specific question, which is whether Raimund Muscheler’s statement can be supported. He was addressing the hypothesis that there might be some enhanced solar forcing effect, as by GCR or uv effects on cloud cover, and he claimed that even a persistent high level of such forcing could not cause warming [or continued warming].
You do make two comments that seem to imply a position here, but please let me know if I’ve got you right on this. First, you left a comment in your post #27 that specifically applies to the question of attribution for late 20th century warming:
“The assumption is not that the climate in 1980 is in equilibrium but that the heat uptake is proportional to the temperature anomaly from some (pre-industrial) equilibrium — ie. the system is in what I called the intermediate regime in post #3. (Actually post #4 — IH 5/17/12)”
As I understand your position, the heat capacity of the second ocean layer is effectively infinite in the intermediate regime and this regime easily persists for multiple decades and even centuries, even for quite substantial heat input into the deeper oceans. This is a direct implication of the 2-box model. Given the vast size of the second ocean layer it’s going to take a long time for this layer to warm enough to take a significant bite out of the rate of heat transfer from the upper ocean layer. As you put it to me in your email response:
“I think the forced temperature response should follow the forcing with only a small time lag (small enough that, in practice, it only affects the volcanic response), despite the existence of long oceanic time scales — the argument being that these deep reservoirs have not warmed enough to significantly affect the heat uptake.”
So with the temperature of the deep oceans essentially fixed over a broad intermediate time scale, the temperature of the upper ocean layer on this time scale is driven entirely (or virtually entirely), by forcings from above, which it responds to rapidly. Thus the only way to get continued warming of the upper ocean layer (necessary for continued warming of GMAST), is for temperature forcings to continue to rise.
CO2 forcing did continue to rise post 1970 while solar forcings were (to use Musheler’s phrase) “relatively constant.” Thus as analyzed by your 2-box model, CO2 is a viable explanation for late 20th century warming while solar-activity driven effects (no matter the mechanism) are not.
Am I understanding you correctly? Is this the argument you are making, or would make?
Sincerely,
Alec
In response, Held seemed to be satisfied with my account of his position:
It sounds like you understand
Isaac
I also understand how Held’s 2-box model fails catastrophically in this application
Add the least bit more realism—an intermediate ocean layer—and a persistent high solar forcing will cause continued warming on intermediate time scales. Isaac Held must understand this too. After all, he has a doctorate in this stuff and has spent his life studying it. Anything that is obvious at first glance to a non-scientist like myself cannot have eluded Dr. Held entirely, making it hard not to suspect that he might be treating this failing of his simplified model as feature rather than a bug. The “consensus” position that late 20th century warming was caused by CO2 depends on finding some way to dismiss the rival solar theory and Held’s hyper-symplified model provides one.
On the other hand, this application is not what Held has been using his 2-box model for. In his blog posts Isaac argues for the utility of the 2-box model entirely on the grounds that it does a remarkably good job of mimicking the behavior of the mainline GCMs, which are never used to examine what kind of behavior enhanced solar forcing might produce. These models are driven pretty much entirely by CO2. That is what Held is fixated on and I have no indication that he had ever used his 2-box model to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming until I urged him to weigh in on Raimund Muscheler’s typical/outlandish statement that a persistent high level of forcing should not cause continued warming.
All the consensus scientists are doing the same thing. The only models they look at are CO2 driven. The only hypothesis they actually try to work through, or even consider, is the CO2-warming hypothesis. When it comes to the possibility of late 20th century warming having been caused by the sun they content themselves with the most unscientific statements imaginable and simply refuse to look deeper.
I have compiled more than a dozen instances of leading IPCC scientists all making simple unconditional statements that because solar activity was not going up in the late 20th century it cannot have caused late 20th century warming. You’d think this was Newton’s Fourth Law: temperature is driven by the trend in the temperature forcing, not the level of the forcing. They all just pretend it is obvious that persistent high levels of forcing cannot cause continued warming.
Only when pressed do these scientists admit that they are making implicit assumptions about ocean equilibration, which they then try to justify with various half-considered rationales. Unfortunately, the only person who has been pressing these scientists on their unstated assumptions is me, so the unscientific statements continue to flow.
When the alternative is to hack-up an untenable excuse, avoidance is much preferred, and that’s where these guys all hang out, Held included. To make sure, I asked him about it: had the implications of his 2-box model for solar warming ever been pulled together and stated explicitly by anyone but me? Had it ever been published as a grounds for dismissing the solar-warming theory? Had it been discussed at meetings or passed around by email? Were people familiar with this argument?
Isaac just offered the modest answer that he found the 2-box model worthwhile because of how well it captures the response of the full-fledged GCMs to rising CO2. So that’s good. It means there has been no worked-out deception on Held’s part, and it means that Held’s excuse for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming is stillborn. In the first instance where Held has ventured to misapply his two-box model to the solar-warming hypothesis it now dies.
This makes FOUR off-the-cuff attempts to support the claim that persistent forcing can’t cause continued warming, all now dead and buried
1. Mike Lockwood cites Stephen Schwartz’ even more unrealistic one-box model of ocean equilibration.
2. Solanki and Schuessler argue that, since the solar-temperature correlations they have found are strongest with short time lags, rapid temperature responses are all they have evidence for and need to consider. Wrong. Rapid temperature responses of imply longer period responses (just as the solar warming of the day is evidence that the lengthening of the day will warm the season), especially in a system with large heat sinks.
3. Muscheler, Schmidt and others point to the pattern of warming. Since temperatures dipped between 1940 and 1970, the oceans must have equilibrated to the high level of solar forcing that began in the 1920s by at least 1940 they suggest, as if the mid-century wiggle in GMAST means there was a similar wiggle in ocean heat content, despite the apparent domination of GMAST by ocean oscillations.
It is perfectly possible that ocean heat content continued to rise when GMAST dipped and this is what the little heat-content data we have from the mid-20th-century suggests. There was no fall-off in the rate of sea level rise over this period and since surface temperatures were slightly down the melt-rate should not have increased, suggesting that thermal expansion remained steady.
4. Now add Isaac Held’s 2-box fail.
All four have been presented as reasons why a solar explanation for late 20th century warming can safely be dismissed as a significant possibility when in actuality not a one of these rationales stands up to the least bit of scrutiny. Besides internal variability, enhanced solar forcing is the alternative hypothesis to the CO2-warming theory, and the consensus has been falsely claiming to have ruled it out.
GCMs are multi-thousand box models
If going from 2 to 3 ocean layers changes model behavior so that persistent forcing does cause continued warming on intermediate time scales then a fortiori models with “as many as 30 [ocean] layers” will also exhibit this continued-warming behavior. In full-fledged GCMs convection, ocean currents and even ocean oscillations are all modeled. Heat that gets poured into the oceans for extended periods of time will come back out on similar time scales.
Have GCM tests with enhanced solar effects been run? There are some strong indications that they have not. In particular, if such tests had been run, and if they supported the claim that that continued strong solar forcing would not cause continued warming, then surely these tests would have been cited by the many scientists who make this claim, but no such citations are ever offered.
I’m trying to verify now whether these tests have been run and will do a full post on the subject in the future. In the meantime, if anyone has any information about whether GCM models with enhanced solar forcing have been tested and where any results might be found, please email me (alec-at-rawls-dot-org) or leave a note in the comments.
Conceptually there is no obstacle. Svensmark, for instance, hypothesizes that solar variance might be responsible for a 1% or 2% variation in low cloud cover. Adding this solar response to existing GCMs would be easy. To get the best fit for a given level of cloud effect climate sensitivity would have to be reduced an offsetting amount (which at the same time would reduce the warming effect of CO2). It’s just a matter of actually running the tests.
It the tests have been run, the lack of citations suggests that the results do not support the “consensus” position. There are three scandalous possibilities. 1) That contrary results were found and are being kept secret. 2) That contrary results were found and are available but are going un-cited because they contradict the statements that many scientists are making. 3) That despite over $100b in public funding for climate research the “consensus” never bothered to test the alternate hypothesis (in the “post-normal science” sense of seeing how well the hypothesis performs in model runs).
The only innocent possibility is that the IPCC has simply neglected to cite model-tests that support its otherwise unsupported claims that late 20th century warming cannot have been caused by the sun, but that really isn’t possible, not just because the “consensus” doesn’t behave this way, but because no legitimate GCM would behave this way. Persistent high levels of forcing must tend to create continued surface warming on intermediate time scales, and it must take quite some doing for a scientist to convince himself otherwise.
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Kev-in-Uk says:
November 17, 2012 at 6:34 am
……………
Hi Kevin
I don’t think anyone knows how natural variability works or what the extent of it is; if so than even less can be concluded for the AGW.
But let’s have a shot at it.
On the http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NoaaD.htm illustrations map show tectonic fault (red line) and two major currents of the North Pacific, Kuroshio (warm current) and Oyashio (cold current). Relative strength of these currents determines if the N. Pacific and the lands of surrounding continents where lot of the glob temps come from, are warmer or colder. One could suggest that the tectonic movements have some effect on these currents.
So far so good.
Now, for the magnetic field. Its generation and changes of its intensity deep inside the Earth’s (outer) core are even bigger mystery than the climate change.
Movement of the tectonic plates (subduction see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/SubZone.jpg ) interferes with magma flow further down. These disturbances in the flow propagate slowly through the dense magma affecting thermal convection. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Outer_core_convection_rolls.jpg
which is assumed to be the generator of the magnetic field.
What about the 15 year delay?
In the last wiki link there are some cylinders depicted. This appear to be very complex subject, if so inclined look up article by a JPL-NASA scientist and an Oxford professor
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/19162/1/98-0417.pdf
which considers mechanical disturbances propagation between the Earth’s core and lithosphere at various latitudes.
Thus
1. Tectonic movements affect balance of the two major n. Pacific currents (Kuroshio warm and Oyashio cold) and in doing so changes temperature across N. Hemisphere.
2. The same tectonic movements affect magma flow, which propagates slowly further down, where magnetic field is generated, and changes in the MF are observed on the surface.
There are number of experts and the ‘experts’ from many fields of science, which may disagree, offer different more plausible ideas, or declare correlation spurious and the whole charabanc a nonsense.
Kev-in-Uk says:
November 17, 2012 at 6:18 am
…………..
I had in mind rapid vibrations (shaking)
http://science.uniserve.edu.au/school/Seismograph/seismogram.jpg
not a slow moving up/down tsunami wave.
Such vibrations ‘may’ change or obliterate thermal structure or possibly alter balance of the two North Pacific’s major currents (Kuroshio/Oyashio) etc.
I wonder if anyone has found any useful data from the temperature/density layer information found in the war patrol reports of US submarines in WW2. Naturally it is small slice of fairly shallow water. Would it be of any use in ocean temperature discussions?
AD
Some models need to add a planet-Zog box…
vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 8:10 am
rapid shaking? I don’t think the speed of the wave pulse will be high enough to make any difference – surely, the hydraulic mode of movement through a fluid does not preclude the movement of the fluid per se, more that it is the transference of hydraulic pressure from one side to the other. this is of course completely different to convective or stream currents, etc.
(just thinking out loud really!)
@vukcevic
Thanks for the links:
Estimated Values of Magnetic Field
Point: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/#igrfwmm
Grid: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/#igrfgrid
Possibly not transversal waves, such as common sea waves, but a longitudinal wave, basically a pressure wave (sound wave of low frequency).
http://hermes.ffn.ub.es/~albert/ones/wavemotion.html
Without taking into account changing TSI reaching the surface of the ocean this model will be greatly incomplete and missing the main input of solar energy over the period. A 4 percent increase in global low cloud levels will put the Earth back to global temperatures of the 1970’s. Dismissing solar warming without even considering this important observation of the period is complete ignorance. Deliberately done to continue the pseudoscience that climate science mainly represents.
vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 10:16 am
my fluid dynamics is ancient history – but my point is that pressure waves through fluid (as opposed to at the surface) do not cause much actual movement.
re your earlier post – I will have to read through the links and get back to you. I can see problems regarding magma movement – it is a slow process – I find it difficult to see how EM flux can vary with temperature. I may be a geologist , but the last time I read up on that kind of stuff was some 30+ years ago!
vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 7:53 am
can’t get the pdf link to work – dns error.
Never mind, I think I get the general picture. You suspect that at a subduction zone and/or rdge zone, that the movement of the lithosphere/athenosphere can generate magnetic field variations via some kind of dynamo type effect?
I think that whilst this is not impossible, and again from recollection of EM physics – that in order to generate a mag field one requires a dipole of some description? It is considered (or was, last time I read about it!) that the magnetic field is generated by our molten iron core and mantle rotating/moving in some way. I personally consider that the core and mantle probably work by some kind of magneto/stator arrangement (similar to a generator in a bike engine) to produce a combined magnetic field. in a bike stator/magneto generator, the stator (it’s static) plate contains a circle of independent coils, and the magnets are provided in the outer rotating flywheel. This works by generating electricity in each of the coils as the magnets whizz past.
now transfer this to the earths core – which is probably iron (and may be rotating – but not important) and the molten mantle which perhaps has natural convective ‘eddys’ in it. The convective eddys are the coils on the stator plate – and the core is the moving magnet. However, it actually works (whether ist the convective currents moving or the core), we know that reverse shifts take place, where the magnetic poles ‘swap’ over. In order for such flips to occur, we must have something that can change in an instant (geologically speaking). If we have several large eddy ‘cells’ around the core that are generally working ‘together’ to produce the net magnetic field – in geological terms, we could have one of more of these cells disrupted by volcanic eruptions, magma extrusions, seafloor spreading, etc. When one of more of these cells get disrupted, the mag field in that cell gets changed/weakened. I would suggest that at that time, the overall mag field is weaker and some trigger can make it flip into reverse. It could be something as simple as the loss of ‘movement’ within one or more cells causing the convective movements to ‘halt’ – or it could be from an external source (solar flare? or other EM ‘pulse’).
So, I can see a probable mechanism for mag field generation – but I cannot see how subduction zones or plate boundaries will seriously alter a mag field. we are talking small movements here in the order of several millimetres to a couple of centimetres per year – so I don’t see those directly affecting magnetic field properties. At plate boundaries, we will have magma chambers and magmatic ‘movements’ or convections which may well cause local mag field perturbations – but I don’t see how these can be correlated to temperatures as in your interesting graph.
As I said, I’d need to read a bit and get myself up to speed on current core/mantle/PT theory to comment with any real value but from a macro view, I’m struggling to understand why there is a possible link between temps and magnetic field – and a timelagged one at that!
Kevin, I think you may have misunderstood, I was suggesting two independent processes driven by the same cause – the tectonic plates movement.
1. tectonic plates movement affects the warm/cold currents balance in the area and this is reflected in the atmospheric temperatures.
At the same time
2. tectonic plates movement (subduction) affects magma flow, this disturbance eventually reaches geomagnetic dynamo changing intensity of the flux which is more or less instantly registered by geomagnetic stations around the world.
15 years delay may be a bit of a problem but JPL-NASA link in the previous post says:”The total CAM (core angular momentum) exhibits a principal maximum at a 15-year lead with respect to LOD” (length of day) which is the rotation rate of the lithosphere.
Hence two processes the atmospheric temperature change and the MF flux change are independent of each other, but having the same cause there is strong mutual correlation.
Your guess is as good as mine, so here I am tempted to give up.
vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 2:42 pm
Ok,
wrt 1) I don’t see PT movements causing significant thermal changes in water currents just by movement alone – though I accept that geothermal heat may be a factor at crustal thinning zones or volcanic zones, for example?
wrt 2) I need to see that paper to comment – but it is indeed still strange to see such a correlation, and I would say it is sufficiently close to warrant investigation. Are there any similar correlations at other PT boundaries?
Kev-in-Uk says:
November 17, 2012 at 6:18 am
I don’t see how a wave passing through a liquid can cause excessive mixing either….
______________________________________
Have you bothered to look at Bob Tisdale’s Utube? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmjaNO5DD_Q
Arctic – Gakkel Ridge
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NFC1.htm
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LL.htm
Gail Combs says:
November 17, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Sorry Gail, my point was about pressure waves (not surface waves or currents) – as in the type you get from earthquakes (p and s waves). Forget the Tsunami type surface waves – which of course can cause mixing and forget about Currents, which are actual physical movements of fluid through the fluid (if that makes sense). Instead, think about a hydraulic ram system – whereby the pressure applied at one end of the system moves only a small amount of fluid (along the pipe a little) to produce a corresponding movement of fluid at the other end of the system – it doesn’t flow – it’s the hydraulic property of non compression that ‘transfers’ the pressure through the fluid. does my point of little/no mixing make more sense now?
During an earthquake, the tsunami is made by a sudden elevation change in the seabed, which literally lifts or drops the seafloor a signifcant amount over a certain area. this has the effect of instantly producing a ‘cliff’ of water – which then wants to move to a ‘level’ position. A pressure pulse can also be formed, but it is not a turbulent ‘surface wave’ – its more like a sound wave passing through the air – just juggling the air as it passes through but not actually moving/mixing the fluid much.
as I said my FD knowledge is really rusty and old (like me) – but I’m sure a low frequency pressure wave through a fluid doesn’t cause much mixing!
I quickly scanned that vid and I think Bob was on about current mixing at some point in it – which is not what I was referring too – just my bad communication I guess!
I had in mind rapid vibrations (shaking)
http://science.uniserve.edu.au/school/Seismograph/seismogram.jpg
not a slow moving up/down tsunami wave.
Such vibrations ‘may’ change or obliterate thermal structure or possibly alter balance of the two North Pacific’s major currents (Kuroshio/Oyashio) etc.
Why? The net average displacement of molecules in a sound wave is precisely zero. For that matter, when waves move over deep water the net displacement of water in a wave is zero (relative to any currents that might be present). A wave moving from deep water to shallow water builds up a speed differential that causes the water to pile up and overtop, so at the shore there is plenty of mixing, sure, but the shore is a tiny, tiny fraction of the volume and far, far away from midocean.
The expected displacement or disruption of the thermocline or anything else mid ocean after the tsunami wave (which is tiny — order of a meter or two, mid-ocean) has passed is — zero.
The problem with water is that it is incredibly incompressible. So incompressible that at the bottom of the ocean trenches it has only changed density by a few percent relative to the surface. Consequently, it satisfies a pretty rigorous conservation equation for differential flow everywhere else. This makes it rather difficult for transient wave phenomena to mix water. To mix it you have to stir it, and waves do not stir.
rgb
vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Hmmm – I need to understand how and why these apparent correlations exist and to start with, how these graphs have been constructed and what the actual measurements are! is there any methodology statements in your pages?
rgbatduke says:
November 17, 2012 at 3:56 pm
…………..
Hi Dr. Brown
Well, you shot down both the rabbit and the fox. It just looked logical that either kind of wave may have some effect either on the direct heat exchange between the layers or cause break down in the structure.
On the other hand if you recon it is out of question, there is always second possibility that the balance between two currents (Kuroshio-warm and Oyashio-cold) was affected. Another wild guess?
However the other case
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NoaaD.htm
which is strongly backed up by data, I find far more fascinated, and your judgment would be not only welcome, but an important contribution to understanding this unusual phenomenon.
Apparently magma in the core circulates at 1mm/sec i.e. 86m/day http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120729142156.htm
but 15 years for 3000km gives 22m/day in the radial direction, which would suggest the trajectory is indeed a spiral (Coriolis force etc). Although magma is very dense, I am a bit surprised that information could be locked in for a such long period. Apparently does happen in the other direction too, from the core to the surface http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/19162/1/98-0417.pdf
Any ideas ?
Kev-in-UK
There are clear instructions on the link
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NoaaD.htm
just scroll down below the maps of the area.
Alec,
I find this a very strange post. I don’t have the technical skills to assess your argument. But as a regular reader of Isaac Held’s blog, he is hardly an alarmist. His posts are frank and thoughtful.
Yet it appears to me that Prof. Held has kindly volunteered his time in liaising with you via email and you have returned the favour by writing this rather nasty post that publicly accuses him of dishonesty and sloppy science. Have I got that right? Did you have his permission to reproduce his emails here? Did you give him the opportunity to provide any feedback on this? Or was it just a surprise attack, as it appears?
Alex Harvey
@ur momisugly Gail Combs
Nice SWAG!
John West says: @ur momisugly November 18, 2012 at 6:00 am
At least it is verifiable in a fairly short time span and there is a bit of science backing it up.
The change in the solar spectrum: WUWT: SORCE’s Solar Spectral Surprise – UV declined, TSI constant
The TSI composite graph
And the effect of solar radiation on the oceans. Solar Radiation Graph, TOA, Surface, Ocean @ur momisugly 10m and Solar radiation at various ocean depths
I think of it as similar to a kid on a swing. You do not need much energy to change the swinging once the kid is in motion. ENSO is the swing. Whether El Niño (heating) dominates the cycle or La Niña (cooling) is probably dependent on a lot of factors such as how much energy is available to enter the oceans when the cloud cover is less during the La Niña phase.
(Don’t miss Bob Tisdale’s presentations http://www.youtube.com/user/BobTisdale1)
And Yeah it is a SWAG Dr. S.
Notice El Nino’s roughly got stronger during the period while global low cloud albedo was declining. Since 2006 low global cloud has stopped declining therefore based on the ENSO knowledge so far future El Nino’s will not be stronger than the 1997/98 one unless a further decrease in global low cloud albedo occurs in future. Therefore based on what’s been happening recently El Nino’s should become stable/ weaker and any increases in global low cloud albedo in future will further weaker them. The process of ENSO moving warm surface water around the globe towards the pole will be reduced and therefore rises in global temperatures also reduced. This will then lead to peaks and troughs in the ENSO swings at lower levels than compared over the recent warm period.
Gail Combs
( SWAG ? http://www.acronymfinder.com/Slang/SWAG.html number 1 ? )
The video is good presentation and very informative.
Some two years ago I collected geological data, mixture of major earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, around the Equatorial pacific (centered on 5 degree S parallel + & – 10 degrees) from Sumatra to and including Andes mountains.
When normalized, plotted and compared to the Southern Oscillation Index and ENSO the correlation becomes obvious.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SOI.htm
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/ENSO.htm
Is there link between two apparently non related types of events?
Looks like that it could be.
If so, then tectonics is more likely to be the cause rather then the effect.
If so then as always, the mechanism appears to be illusive.
Some of you are getting it.
High solar activity intensifies the polar vortices vertically but contracts them horizontally for shrinking polar air masses at the surface (positive AO and AAO). That is achieved by the change in the mix of wavelengths and particles altering the vertical temperature profile of the atmosphere by changing the balance of ozone destruction and creation differentially at different levels. Ozone decreases in the mesosphere and stratosphere which both cool and the ozone hole over Antarctica gets larger.
The climate zones shift poleward and the subtropical high pressure cells expand.
Global cloudiness reduces, more energy enters the oceans in the subtropics, El Nino comes to dominate over La Nina and the troposphere warms.
The additional sunlight into the subtropical oceans warms the top 200 metres or so producing CO2 outgassing and tropospheric CO2 increases.
The opposite when solar activity is low.
Meanwhile the timing of all the consequences of solar variability is modulated by internal ocean oscillations for multiple periods of time overlapping each other (due to each ocean basin responding separately) for 1000 years or more as the thermohaline circulation runs its course.
The average response time for the oceanic system as a whole being about 800 years as revealed by the temperature / CO2 lag in the various proxy records.
All as per actual observations.