Isaac Held's 2-box model: another failed ocean-equilibration excuse for dismissing solar warming

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Dr. Isaac Held, who models fluid dynamics at NOAA, dismisses a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking a 2-box model of ocean equilibration. In his model an upper upper ocean layer (100m or so deep) exhibits a rapid temperature response to any increase in radiative forcing (about 4 years), as has been observed for this part of the ocean. So far so good.

Below sits Held’s second box: the entire rest of the oceans, all modeled as having the same temperature. To see the effect of this highly unrealistic simplification, look at what would happen if an intermediate ocean layer were also modeled, say from 100 to 500 meters in depth. Following a step-up in forcing the rapid temperature response of the upper ocean layer would commence to warm the intermediate ocean layer on some intermediate time scale—from a few decades to a century perhaps—and the decreasing temperature differential between these two layers would decrease the rate of heat loss from the upper layer to the ocean below, causing the upper ocean layer to continue to warm on the decades-to-century time scale.

This is exactly what Held and others are saying will not happen. Their claim is that the 20th century’s persistent high levels of solar forcing could not have caused continued warming and hence cannot be responsible for late 20th century warming. But these claims always rest on unreliable and often unstated assumptions about ocean equilibration. Held’s assumptions are stated, making his example particularly revealing. His argument against solar warming hinges directly on what is unrealistic about his model.

Isaac Held on Raimund Muscheler

My email correspondence with Held began when I cc’d him on my critique of Raimund Muscheler, who had claimed that because the high levels of solar forcing from 1950 to 2000 were “relatively constant,” they were unlikely to cause continued warming:

Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.

This statement by Muscheler was specifically in answer to the possibility of indirect solar forcings that might be much stronger than the slight variation in TSI (Total Solar Insolation). No matter the strength of the forcing Muscheler and others are saying, continued high forcing should not cause continued warming.

Do these people actually think that it is the rate of change in the level of a temperature forcing rather than the level of the forcing that does the forcing? Alternatively, they may be assuming some implausibly rapid ocean equilibration, so that by 1970 or 1980 equilibrium would have been reached, requiring continued forcing of the same magnitude just to maintain that equilibrium.

I thought Held might offer an antidote because at the same meeting that Muscheler had been quoted as dismissing the solar-warming theory, Held had noted that:

“… some 40-70 percent of the [temperature adjustment to a change in forcing] is achieved on a timescale on the order of 4 years, whereas equilibration takes centuries.”

If equilibration takes centuries then it would not have been attained by 1970. Thus continued high levels of forcing should cause continued warming, right?

No, says Held, not in the 2-box model that he was referring to, as he briefly explained to me in his reply:

Alec,

I believe that you have misunderstood my perspective on this. As I have tried to indicate in some of my blog posts, especially #3, 4 and 27, I think the forced temperature response should follow the forcing with only a small time lag (small enough that, in practice, it only affects the volcanic response), despite the existence of long oceanic time scales — the argument being that these deep reservoirs have not warmed enough to significantly affect the heat uptake.

Isaac

As Held puts it in his blog-post #4 (where he introduces his 2-box analysis) the heat capacity of the deeper ocean layer is effectively “infinite” in this model on intermediate time-scales. No matter how much heat gets pumped into the oceans, the deeper ocean layer does not warm significantly over mere decades and so there is no significant reduction in the rate of heat loss from the upper ocean layer. All of the heat that goes into the deeper ocean is regarded as simply disappearing, never to have any effect on upper ocean temperatures except on much longer time scales.

The result is a kind of psuedo-equilibrium where the only thing that will cause further change in the temperature of the upper ocean layer is further change in the level of forcing. Persistent high levels of even a strongly enhanced solar forcing would not cause continued warming of the upper ocean layer in this model. There would just be the rapid temperature response of the upper ocean layer then nothing measurable for generations.

Global Mean Atmospheric Surface Temperature (GMAST) is primarily determined by upper-ocean temperatures, thus according to Held’s 2-box model, where persistent forcing only causes brief warming, the late 20th century increase in GMAST could not have been caused by the high level of solar activity over this period. The highest levels of solar activity were reached in the 50s so the warming effect should have wound down by the 60s. But this 2-box argument turns on the known-to-be-wrong assumption that warming of the upper ocean layer does not warm the next few hundred meters of the ocean any more than it warms the abyss.

Simplified models are fine so long as the insights that are gleaned from them are not driven by the simplifications. For instance, it makes no difference that climate models do not include relativistic effects so long as they are not used to analyze relativistic phenomena, but Held takes this basic principle of science and turns it on its head. His argument that persistent enhanced solar forcing would not cause continued warming turns precisely on the unrealistic simplification that creates his 2-box model. Move just to the next simplest model, a 3-box model, and his argument evaporates. The next ocean layer will warm on intemediate time scales, decreasing the rate of heat loss from the upper layer to the deeper ocean, causing the upper layer to warm.

My second email exchange with Dr. Held

Isaac Held’s remarks to me were very brief and his blog posts are focused on a CO2 driver of late 20th century warming rather than the possibility of a solar driver. I wanted to nail down his position on the latter so I pulled together what his posts seem to imply about solar forcing and asked him to please let me know if I had his position right.

Isaac:

I got a chance to look at the blog posts of yours that you mentioned (3, 4, 6, and 27, and I read a few others too). All very interesting stuff.

On attribution for 20th century warming the focus of these posts is on WMGGs [Well Mixed Greenhouse Gases] and how, by adjusting the climate sensitivity estimate in the GCMs, variation in WMGG can be seen to account pretty well for 20th century temperature history. This doesn’t really get at my specific question, which is whether Raimund Muscheler’s statement can be supported. He was addressing the hypothesis that there might be some enhanced solar forcing effect, as by GCR or uv effects on cloud cover, and he claimed that even a persistent high level of such forcing could not cause warming [or continued warming].

You do make two comments that seem to imply a position here, but please let me know if I’ve got you right on this. First, you left a comment in your post #27 that specifically applies to the question of attribution for late 20th century warming:

“The assumption is not that the climate in 1980 is in equilibrium but that the heat uptake is proportional to the temperature anomaly from some (pre-industrial) equilibrium — ie. the system is in what I called the intermediate regime in post #3. (Actually post #4 — IH 5/17/12)”

As I understand your position, the heat capacity of the second ocean layer is effectively infinite in the intermediate regime and this regime easily persists for multiple decades and even centuries, even for quite substantial heat input into the deeper oceans. This is a direct implication of the 2-box model. Given the vast size of the second ocean layer it’s going to take a long time for this layer to warm enough to take a significant bite out of the rate of heat transfer from the upper ocean layer. As you put it to me in your email response:

“I think the forced temperature response should follow the forcing with only a small time lag (small enough that, in practice, it only affects the volcanic response), despite the existence of long oceanic time scales — the argument being that these deep reservoirs have not warmed enough to significantly affect the heat uptake.”

So with the temperature of the deep oceans essentially fixed over a broad intermediate time scale, the temperature of the upper ocean layer on this time scale is driven entirely (or virtually entirely), by forcings from above, which it responds to rapidly. Thus the only way to get continued warming of the upper ocean layer (necessary for continued warming of GMAST), is for temperature forcings to continue to rise.

CO2 forcing did continue to rise post 1970 while solar forcings were (to use Musheler’s phrase) “relatively constant.” Thus as analyzed by your 2-box model, CO2 is a viable explanation for late 20th century warming while solar-activity driven effects (no matter the mechanism) are not.

Am I understanding you correctly? Is this the argument you are making, or would make?

Sincerely,

Alec

In response, Held seemed to be satisfied with my account of his position:

It sounds like you understand

Isaac

I also understand how Held’s 2-box model fails catastrophically in this application

Add the least bit more realism—an intermediate ocean layer—and a persistent high solar forcing will cause continued warming on intermediate time scales. Isaac Held must understand this too. After all, he has a doctorate in this stuff and has spent his life studying it. Anything that is obvious at first glance to a non-scientist like myself cannot have eluded Dr. Held entirely, making it hard not to suspect that he might be treating this failing of his simplified model as feature rather than a bug. The “consensus” position that late 20th century warming was caused by CO2 depends on finding some way to dismiss the rival solar theory and Held’s hyper-symplified model provides one.

On the other hand, this application is not what Held has been using his 2-box model for. In his blog posts Isaac argues for the utility of the 2-box model entirely on the grounds that it does a remarkably good job of mimicking the behavior of the mainline GCMs, which are never used to examine what kind of behavior enhanced solar forcing might produce. These models are driven pretty much entirely by CO2. That is what Held is fixated on and I have no indication that he had ever used his 2-box model to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming until I urged him to weigh in on Raimund Muscheler’s typical/outlandish statement that a persistent high level of forcing should not cause continued warming.

All the consensus scientists are doing the same thing. The only models they look at are CO2 driven. The only hypothesis they actually try to work through, or even consider, is the CO2-warming hypothesis. When it comes to the possibility of late 20th century warming having been caused by the sun they content themselves with the most unscientific statements imaginable and simply refuse to look deeper.

I have compiled more than a dozen instances of leading IPCC scientists all making simple unconditional statements that because solar activity was not going up in the late 20th century it cannot have caused late 20th century warming. You’d think this was Newton’s Fourth Law: temperature is driven by the trend in the temperature forcing, not the level of the forcing. They all just pretend it is obvious that persistent high levels of forcing cannot cause continued warming.

Only when pressed do these scientists admit that they are making implicit assumptions about ocean equilibration, which they then try to justify with various half-considered rationales. Unfortunately, the only person who has been pressing these scientists on their unstated assumptions is me, so the unscientific statements continue to flow.

When the alternative is to hack-up an untenable excuse, avoidance is much preferred, and that’s where these guys all hang out, Held included. To make sure, I asked him about it: had the implications of his 2-box model for solar warming ever been pulled together and stated explicitly by anyone but me? Had it ever been published as a grounds for dismissing the solar-warming theory? Had it been discussed at meetings or passed around by email? Were people familiar with this argument?

Isaac just offered the modest answer that he found the 2-box model worthwhile because of how well it captures the response of the full-fledged GCMs to rising CO2. So that’s good. It means there has been no worked-out deception on Held’s part, and it means that Held’s excuse for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming is stillborn. In the first instance where Held has ventured to misapply his two-box model to the solar-warming hypothesis it now dies.

This makes FOUR off-the-cuff attempts to support the claim that persistent forcing can’t cause continued warming, all now dead and buried

1. Mike Lockwood cites Stephen Schwartz’ even more unrealistic one-box model of ocean equilibration.

2. Solanki and Schuessler argue that, since the solar-temperature correlations they have found are strongest with short time lags, rapid temperature responses are all they have evidence for and need to consider. Wrong. Rapid temperature responses of imply longer period responses (just as the solar warming of the day is evidence that the lengthening of the day will warm the season), especially in a system with large heat sinks.

3. Muscheler, Schmidt and others point to the pattern of warming. Since temperatures dipped between 1940 and 1970, the oceans must have equilibrated to the high level of solar forcing that began in the 1920s by at least 1940 they suggest, as if the mid-century wiggle in GMAST means there was a similar wiggle in ocean heat content, despite the apparent domination of GMAST by ocean oscillations.

It is perfectly possible that ocean heat content continued to rise when GMAST dipped and this is what the little heat-content data we have from the mid-20th-century suggests. There was no fall-off in the rate of sea level rise over this period and since surface temperatures were slightly down the melt-rate should not have increased, suggesting that thermal expansion remained steady.

4. Now add Isaac Held’s 2-box fail.

All four have been presented as reasons why a solar explanation for late 20th century warming can safely be dismissed as a significant possibility when in actuality not a one of these rationales stands up to the least bit of scrutiny. Besides internal variability, enhanced solar forcing is the alternative hypothesis to the CO2-warming theory, and the consensus has been falsely claiming to have ruled it out.

GCMs are multi-thousand box models

If going from 2 to 3 ocean layers changes model behavior so that persistent forcing does cause continued warming on intermediate time scales then a fortiori models with “as many as 30 [ocean] layers” will also exhibit this continued-warming behavior. In full-fledged GCMs convection, ocean currents and even ocean oscillations are all modeled. Heat that gets poured into the oceans for extended periods of time will come back out on similar time scales.

Have GCM tests with enhanced solar effects been run? There are some strong indications that they have not. In particular, if such tests had been run, and if they supported the claim that that continued strong solar forcing would not cause continued warming, then surely these tests would have been cited by the many scientists who make this claim, but no such citations are ever offered.

I’m trying to verify now whether these tests have been run and will do a full post on the subject in the future. In the meantime, if anyone has any information about whether GCM models with enhanced solar forcing have been tested and where any results might be found, please email me (alec-at-rawls-dot-org) or leave a note in the comments.

Conceptually there is no obstacle. Svensmark, for instance, hypothesizes that solar variance might be responsible for a 1% or 2% variation in low cloud cover. Adding this solar response to existing GCMs would be easy. To get the best fit for a given level of cloud effect climate sensitivity would have to be reduced an offsetting amount (which at the same time would reduce the warming effect of CO2). It’s just a matter of actually running the tests.

It the tests have been run, the lack of citations suggests that the results do not support the “consensus” position. There are three scandalous possibilities. 1) That contrary results were found and are being kept secret. 2) That contrary results were found and are available but are going un-cited because they contradict the statements that many scientists are making. 3) That despite over $100b in public funding for climate research the “consensus” never bothered to test the alternate hypothesis (in the “post-normal science” sense of seeing how well the hypothesis performs in model runs).

The only innocent possibility is that the IPCC has simply neglected to cite model-tests that support its otherwise unsupported claims that late 20th century warming cannot have been caused by the sun, but that really isn’t possible, not just because the “consensus” doesn’t behave this way, but because no legitimate GCM would behave this way. Persistent high levels of forcing must tend to create continued surface warming on intermediate time scales, and it must take quite some doing for a scientist to convince himself otherwise.

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Paul Vaughan
November 16, 2012 11:30 am

vukcevic (November 16, 2012 at 7:30 am) wrote:
“Any one from NASA, NOAA or any well known university is welcome to contact me.”

All of your graphs can easily be nearly-reproduced in minutes using a variety of methods. They won’t need to contact you for anything if they have natural quantitative intuition & capability. (There’s also the communications chill from climategate.) As you know well from the number of page-views you’re getting from mainstream institutions, lack of contact should not be interpreted as lack of curious interest. With a handful of your most notable illustrations you’ve succeeded in raising important questions that have so far not been adequately addressed by mainstream authorities. For publicly volunteering important questions that cannot be deflected and should not be ignored, you deserve commendation. As I am very poor financially I have no money I can afford to donate to you, but I will confidently assert that the mainstream scientists who cannot answer the questions you raise are not worth infinitely more than you, as their secure salaries & pensions suggest in contrast with your unpaid volunteer work.

Paul Vaughan
November 16, 2012 11:40 am

Stephen Wilde (November 16, 2012 at 10:36 am) wrote:
“I am doubtful that cosmic ray counts have a significant effect because there are more than enough condensation nuclei anyway.
Changes in the length of the lines of air mass mixing are a far more likely cause of cloudiness changes.”

We’ve had a miscommunication — severe one on the former, less severe on the latter. Let’s leave it there for now…
All the best…

Rob Potter
November 16, 2012 12:16 pm

Thanks Kev-in-UK – you have distilled my feelings quite accurately.
All the argument about levels of sunspots, TSI etc. is very interesting but at then end of the day there is a strong correlation between sun activity and global temperatures. Now I know correlation is not causation, but I think I would be looking for what the linkage between these two is before trying to find complicated reasons to blame warming on anthropogenic CO2 emissions.

HankHenry
November 16, 2012 12:24 pm

Any comments about why a two box model is needed specifically for the ocean while the rest of the world gets by without this abstraction? Answering that question could provide perspective on where these boxes tie in to other elements of the system.

Robert A. Taylor
November 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Thank you for your reply to my post November 15, 2012 at 9:59 pm
I agree entirely.
Thank you:
Rgbatduke says:
November 16, 2012 at 7:18 am
This is the kind of thing I meant; large scale, long term movements, not small short term ones. I was too telegraphic.

rgbatduke
November 16, 2012 1:58 pm

commendation. As I am very poor financially I have no money I can afford to donate to you, but I will confidently assert that the mainstream scientists who cannot answer the questions you raise are not worth infinitely more than you, as their secure salaries & pensions suggest in contrast with your unpaid volunteer work.
You do know that most “mainstream scientists” work for Universities and government organizations and have “tenure”, this thing that makes it impossible to fire them or affect their pensions in the case of Universities, difficult to fire them in the case of places like NASA or NOAA, right? You do realize that this is a generally good thing as it means that they cannot be fired for being an iconoclast, for refusing to buy into some currently politically correct idea or fad of the moment?
And why do you assert that mainstream scientists “cannot answer the questions you raise” when Leif answers those questions all of the time. It’s just not the case that people always like the answers. Where I am not addressing whether or not his objections are correct, only that there is no lack of scientists with answers with a fair degree of foundation in empirical observation and reason.
One of my many wishes is that people on list/blog would cease the bashing of scientists in general or even climate scientists in general. Bashing specific climate scientists for specific reasons is always welcome of course — right or wrong, one can address it. But you have just damned many people would would, I suspect, claim that they can easily answer these questions. Whether or not they can or can’t they don’t deserve the blanket condemnation.
It’s also another square on the logical fallacy bingo sheets that I wish Anthony would link to the site, and you’d hate for somebody to win just because of your remarks, wouldn’t you?
rgb

November 16, 2012 1:59 pm

Paul Vaughan says:
November 16, 2012 at 11:30 am
…….
Hi Paul. Thanks for the kind words. In my case there is no need for donation and the monetary aspect is totally irrelevant. I enjoy digging into data with the aim to draw attention to odd correlations. One of the recent hits was from The Office of the President of the University of California, most likely the night cleaner reading the WUWT web-pages.

rgbatduke
November 16, 2012 2:01 pm

There is likelihood that the last year tsunami has destroyed the thermocline (you talk of in your previous post) , sending volumes of cold water near or to the surface. This cold water would be flowing down the American west cost now, providing little evaporation and hence ‘drought conditions in the western US’
http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gif
shows that the first block of the colder water has moved away towards the mid Pacific, while second is on the way.

Not implausible, offhand, although I don’t really see how a surface wave can affect the mixing of an entire layer hundreds of meters down on a global scale. But it seems equally likely (given the series of Ninas that aren’t correlated with Tsunamis) that they have some alternative cause, such as a fundamental alteration in the state of the Sun in the current solar cycle (where no, I do not have a good causal description) or something even more subtle.
rgb

Gail Combs
November 16, 2012 2:32 pm

John West says:
November 16, 2012 at 7:03 am
This is all very interesting, but can we formulate a testable hypothesis?….
__________________________________
SWAG – If the TSI is turned down you would see more La Niñas than El Niños. Is that what we are starting to see?

phlogiston
November 16, 2012 3:26 pm

rgbatduke says:
November 16, 2012 at 9:33 am
With the building east Pacific surface and subsurface cold, we could have a La Nina brewing.
Which would make it a triple Nina, right? Sounds like “Climate Change” to me…
It would also explain the midwestern drought, as Nina is correlated fairly strongly with drought conditions in the western US IIRC (as well as with global cooling).

A few months back Bill Illis pointed out that atmospheric conditions favoured La Nina but the ocean was set for el Nino. Now the ocean has swung toward La Nina, I’m not sure if the atmosphere remains also in La Nina territory (the Pacific trades seem not to have changed much). If the two come into phase we could indeed see at least a moderate La Nina – it would be the triple dip.

Gail Combs
November 16, 2012 3:28 pm

I should add when I say TSI and turned down I am also referring to the change in the mix of wavelengths as documented so far by SORCE

Matthew R Marler
November 16, 2012 3:55 pm

Alec Rawls: For a given amount of heat transfer per temperature difference, heat will initially be transferred to the intermediate layer in a 3-box model at the same rate that it would be transferred to the deep layer in the 2-box model, but since the heat capacity of the intermediate layer is so much smaller than the heat capacity of the deep layer in the 2-box model, the intermediate layer will warm up much faster.
ok
I was forgetting that the rate parameters were constrained by the physical properties of the water.

phlogiston
November 16, 2012 4:11 pm

Douglass and Knox concluded that heat transfer to the upper 300m in response to radiative balance changes is relatively fast – in the paper that was the subject of the recently posted failed rebuttal by Nuccitella:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/11/ocean-heat-content-and-earth%E2%80%99s-radiation-imbalance/
Here is their summary:
We determine Earth’s radiation imbalance by analyzing three recent independent observational ocean heat content determinations for the period 1950 to 2008 and compare the results with direct measurements by satellites. A large annual term is found in both the implied radiation imbalance and the direct measurements. Its magnitude and phase confirm earlier observations that delivery of the energy to the ocean is rapid, thus eliminating the possibility of long time constants associated with the bulk of the heat transferred. Longer-term averages of the observed imbalance are not only many-fold smaller than theoretically derived values, but also oscillate in sign. These facts are not found among the theoretical
predictions.
Three distinct time intervals of alternating positive and negative imbalance are found: 1960 to the mid 1970s, the mid 1970s to
2000 and 2001 to present. The respective mean values of radiation imbalance are −0.15, +0.15, and −0.2 to −0.3. These observations are consistent with the occurrence of climate shifts at 1960, the mid-1970s, and early 2001 identified by Swanson and Tsonis. Knowledge of the complex atmospheric-ocean physical processes is not involved or required in making these findings. Global surface temperatures as a function of time are also not required to be known.

In their system the phase shifts are not direct forcing of solar input of CO2 or anything else, but a nonlinear oscillation related to interaction of different oceanic oscillations.

Paul Vaughan
November 16, 2012 4:28 pm

@rgbatduke (November 16, 2012 at 1:58 pm)
You have misinterpreted my remarks.

Kev-in-Uk
November 16, 2012 4:50 pm

Rob Potter says:
November 16, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Too kind – but the point remains (curiously enough,when you think about it, this is the nub that Trenberth was trying to make in his simplistic energy budget workings to’explain’ GHG ‘forcings’!) that in order to have an actual temperature change on earth we must have either:
1) an increase or decrease in incoming energy
and/or
2) an increase or decrease in outgoing energy
there is NO other answer! even if you want to add an imaginary highly variable GHG effect, this STILL has the net effect of altering the radiation in/out budget only in a TEMPORARY fashion via some ‘time lag’ or other until re-equilibrium is reached. Great, say the warmists, that means we can still blame GHG/CO2 – but NO, we cannot discern such a distinction because the time lag is not known (given the complexity of the system) and can only actually be temporary – i.e. for a given GHG effect.once the temp has changed, the radiation budget should be re-equilibriated and temps should return to being ‘static’ after some time or other. The only way this could be proven would be if in the palaeo/proxy record, the temps had been completely static (statistically speaking) thereby illustrating that the biosphere was constantly adjusting and keeping the global temp stable. This is NOT seen – so what caused the changes?.
Obviously, there is the biosphere, the time lags, etc, and the GHG effect to consider in amongst all this to-ing and fro-ing of energy. Sure, increased albedo might decrease temperatures, etc etc-but to try and define that incoming solar radiation is essentially static – is IMHO complete bulldust. You cannot have millenia of ‘stable’ temps and then suddenly have a massive GHG (or other) effect without some form of external ‘trigger’. Once that trigger has been pulled, the biosphere and the wonderful thing that is nature spends a few millenia or more ‘re-setting’ itself to bring us out of the excess situation. This is proven beyond doubt! Ergo, the biosphere always has a net negative feedback.
Moving on, the logical deduction must be that whatever positive and negative effects there are wrt climate change within the biosphere – they MUST never reach a tipping point, where one completely overwhelms the other – else why are we still here? Why has there never been a situation where the earth has boiled dry? or remain encased in ice? After some 4.6 billion years, you would think that it is reasonable to assume that no such tipping point can exist WITHOUT the external influence of something – lets see now – what could that something be:
an asteroid impact or two
mass global volcanic activity
or perhaps the source of the radiation – the sun!
given that PERMANENT hot or cold earth has never happened (yeah, its been hot/cold for many millenia at a time) – even with the known volcanic activity and the presumed asteroid impacts – what does that leave us with as a reasonable explanation for the known palaeo temperature variations……..solar is the only source left (though as I said in my earlier post, more accurately would be to simply use the term ‘radiation energy’ change to keep the anti-solar folks happy!)
As folks surely know by now- I’m only a lowly geologist and engineer – so I must apologise for only taking MACRO view!
regards
Kev

tckev
November 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Another failed exercise in computer modeling, based on gross simplifications and estimates.

tumpys
November 16, 2012 11:13 pm

To boil some water on my cooker i have to keep slowly turning up the hob so it boils, if i just whack it up to full blast the heat fails to warm the water. Cooking for climate scientists!

JazzyT
November 16, 2012 11:15 pm

It looks like just about all of the criticisms of Isaac Held’s model are missing the point. Looking at Held’s pages, which are linked in the e-mails above, you can see that he’s using his two-compartment model as a way of simplifying and comprehending the output of other models–not as a way of coming up with anything new. For example, he compared it to output from a model called CM2.1, and used that model to tune his simple little two-compartment model. Once he saw that they matched, he used the two-compartment model to try and comprehend the output from CM2.1, not to generate new model results. So, it doesn’t make sense to criticize it for being too simplistic to predict anything, or to model things in detail, because that’s not its purpose.
As for having a third box that stretches the time scale out to decades, Matthew Marler is correct: the idea doesn’t mean anything without numbers. But really, if you’re skeptical of a 2-compartment model, it’s hard to say why a 3-compartment model would necessarily be much better. This is actually a case of transient heat conduction in one dimension. The techniques for this are well-known but formidable; I couldn’t find a solved problem that was analogous to the ocean temperature/change of heat input problem, although some were close. I’m not up for doing a week or two’s worth of homework to learn how to do this. Perhaps some Mechanical Engineer here has already done so. That would give an idea of whether there’s really a bunch of cooler water ready to hold down surface temps for decades. I’m doubtful, though. In the end, a solution to the transient heat conduction problem would still be a gross oversimplification; you’d really need a complex model, e.g., a GCM, to get a realistic result. (That’s if the model is realistic, which is another topic entirely.)
Isaac Held and others actually did consider warming with a fast-acting and a slow-acting component, at least for surface air temperature, in a paper that’s linked from one of the ones referenced in e-mail. They didn’t use a three compartment model, instead they used a two-compartment model, with two heat-transfer processes operating on different time scales. Based on the same model as above (CM2.1), they found one component to warming that seems to react quickly (205 years) and another that seems to build up slowly and die down slowly. They call it the “recalcitrant” component. It seems to have little effect by 2100 AD, somewhat more by 2300 AD, but in either case, significantly less than the faster component. The way that it works makes it look like it could drag out a temperature increase due to some forcing process (sun, GHGs, both, etc.) but it doesn’t look like it could [really] store heat underwater and then release it later for delayed warming. We don’t know if that represents reality, but it would explain why Held doesn’t buy into the idea.
The paper is actually kind of interesting, in the way that they tease this out. It gives a good example of why he would want to use these simplistic models, to digest the output of the “real” models. Here’s the link:
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/bibliography/related_files/ih1001.pdf

November 17, 2012 12:40 am

rgbatduke says:
November 16, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Not implausible, offhand, although I don’t really see how a surface wave can affect the mixing of an entire layer hundreds of meters down on a global scale.
May be not the single tsunami but prolong shaking of the ocean floor (vibrations would affect whole depth range over large area) might impact on the integrity of the oceans temperature layers.
Wikipedia earthquakes: lists Japan’s M8+ earthquakes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Japan
01 September 1, 1923 – M8.3
March 2, 1933 – M8.4 ………….Major drought 1934
December 20, 1946 – M8.1
March 4, 1952 – M8.1…………. Major drought 1953-4
May 16, 1968 – M8.2
September 25, 2003 – M8.3
March 11, 2011 – M9.0…………. Major drought 2012
All of March (spring equinox time) Japan’s major earthquake could have a high probability of causing major drought in the USA, considering it takes about 15 months for waters of Kuroshio-Oyashio currents to reach the USA west coast.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/01/tsunami-japan-debris-us-canada
For the two September quakes (autumn equinox) currents would reach USA in mid winter.
Speculative ? Yes, but worth of a note.

November 17, 2012 1:22 am

Dr. Svalgaard is visiting Japan.
There is something odd in the nearby Pacific
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NoaaD.htm
Do check it for yourself

RERT
November 17, 2012 4:27 am

RE: kadaka
I’m aware of the factor of 4 for insolation. That’s why I said, ‘Taking 0.25W/m^2 at face value’.
If you multiply the input by 3/16, you multiply the output by 3/16. Even that level of temperature change is material: 0.11 degrees in 30 years. You can just as easily multiply the 100m water column by 3/16 and get back where you started, especially since the mixing layer is about that deep.
The point is that roughly this level of input is somewhere between material and highly significant depending on the assumptions you want to make. To dismiss it as irrelevant doesn’t make sense.

November 17, 2012 5:17 am

We should know what role TSI variations play in the climate system within a few years.
http://spot.colorado.edu/%7Ekoppg/TSI/TSI_Composite.jpg

Kev-in-Uk
November 17, 2012 6:18 am

vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 12:40 am
I don’t see how a wave passing through a liquid can cause excessive mixing either. Taking it as a simple sine wave of pressure – the liquid doesn’t exactly get mixed up does it? just moved backwards and forwards a bit!
Earthquakes don’t mix up the subsoils/strata very much as the pressure wave passes through! (sure they crack rocks etc, but don’t exactly churn them up do they?)

Kev-in-Uk
November 17, 2012 6:34 am

vukcevic says:
November 17, 2012 at 1:22 am
That’s an interesting correlation – but, correct me of I’m wrong here – on recalling elementary physics, a warmer molecule has more movement, yes? Isn’t movement of molecules related to magnetic flux generation – I’m not sure but it seems to me that warmer air or whatever will find it easier to align to a magnetic field than colder air? So, a rising magnetic flux reading might be expected?
Is this the reason you seem to detect a 10 year lag?