Nothing definitive, but interesting. The area plot above is from NANSEN. The extent plot also shows a turn:
DMI also shows it…
Danish Meteorological Institute (DMI) – Centre for Ocean and Ice – Click the pic to view at sourceBut JAXA does not….suggesting a difference in sensors/processes.
Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) – International Arctic Research Center (IARC) – Click the pic to view at sourceOf course NSIDC has a 5 day average, so we won’t see a change for awhile. Time will tell if this is just a blip or a turn from the new record low for the satellite data set.
More at the WUWT Sea Ice reference page
Wow, yes, it happened again. Just bizarre.
Isn’t it strange that warmunists never have a credible explanation why arctic-ice melting would be a bad thing? How could such a basic question be missed/ignored?
“REPLY: Wasn’t a thesis, just a question. But we know we aren’t allowed to ask questions, so enjoy your moment rooting for less ice. – Anthony”
I’m not rooting for less ice, I’m just not hiding my head in the sand pretending that a blip in one day’s ice would mean that the ice might have “turned a corner”. It shows your willingness to hand-wave away this year’s record melt based on the flimsiest “logic”. Not as bad as Joe Bastardi’s claiming that there’s been a big uptick in ice this week (based on his misreading of a graph marked “Sea Surface Temperature” instead of looking at the one that actually showed ice extent), but not much better. The “smell of climate desperation”, indeed.
Something curious is happening when I reload this page. I’m getting a pop-up:
It doesn’t appear to like a valid email and “anonymous”, and “Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies for March” found at this comment from Just The Facts isn’t loading.
Just remembered this note:
Goes with the red “Service Interruption Notice” at the top of this NSIDC Sea Ice Index page.
So when NSIDC goes down, so does the “colorado.edu” site?
@beng – No love for Warm Arctic, Cold Continents?
dvunkannon says:
September 7, 2012 at 8:12 am
Now you are just grasping at straws. There is no data either way. Who is right? I don’t know. You don’t either.
Tim Folkerts says:
September 7, 2012 at 8:17 am
You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
I don’t see a problem:
http://www.webcitation.org/6AKKakUIo
No wonder this inconvenient chart has been deleted…
Smokey – perhaps it was deleted because it was wrong? Do you really think that all those different agencies measuring arctic ice are in a conspiracy together to lie to us? For what purpose? To get those oil executives all excited at the prospect of exploring for more oil in an arctic with less ice and then laugh at them as the freeze up?
For some reason my last post seems to have vanished without the ‘your post is in moderation’ note so I’ll try again. Please delete this if it is a duplication.
Smokey, perhaps they deleted that chart because it was wrong?
The alternative view is to think that all those different agencies that measure arctic ice are in cahoots to trick the oil companies into thinking they can explore the arctic for oil and then laugh at them as they freeze up. Doesn’t sound very likely.
[Reply: Your last post was rescued from the spam folder. It contained the word ‘conspiracy’, which is why it was automatically sent to spam. ~dbs, mod.]
Robert Murphy [or anyone else],
The natural ebb and flow of Arctic sea ice has been going on for millennia, including during the past hundred years. So explain to us what the problem is if Arctic ice completely disappears.
All the arm waving and wild-eyed predictions of doom should have a scientific basis. But no one ever explains exactly what they believe will happen if the ice melts. Won’t it just freeze up again next winter?
Put your predictions here, in writing. Then we will review whether you were right or wrong. So far, you’ve been wrong about just about everything. One more mistake shouldn’t matter too much. You have only so much credibility to lose, before you have none at all. Since you’re at that point now, make your predictions.
Louise, I prefer to not debate with crazy people. But for the benefit of others, that chart is based on empirical measurements. It was obviously deleted because it doesn’t fit the alarmist narrative.
“Robert Murphy [or anyone else]
…
So explain to us what the problem is if Arctic ice completely disappears.”
I notice you don’t have anything to say against what I actually posted, just goal-post moving. Nonetheless, if the arctic sea ice completely disappears in the summer, it will greatly lower albedo, further increasing warming. It will devastate the wildlife the needs the sea ice to live. It will change long standing weather patterns. You claim that “no one ever explains exactly what they believe will happen if the ice melts”, but of course you know that’s not true.
“So far, you’ve been wrong about just about everything”
I have been? Where? When have you ever been right that I should be concerned with your judgment?
Rob Murphy [or anyone else],
That prediction is far too vague. Further, at high latitudes water reflects almost all incoming solar radiation, thus albedo is a non-issue. And the claims of wildlife being affected, besides being extraordinarily vague, remind me of exactly the same predictions being made prior to the ANWR pipeline construction. It was supposed to ‘devastate’ the caribou herds. That turned out to be complete nonsense.
When I wrote that ‘you’ have been wrong about just about everything, I meant the plural you: the alarmist crowd in general. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But that is still a fact: Sea level rise, runaway global warming, climate disruption, and all the rest of the nonsense simply has not happened. ‘You’ were wrong about everything. Why should it be any different now?
So make your specific predictions. We’ll see if they happen. But past experience says this will be just another false alarm.
[Snip. d-word Policy violation. Any more off-topic comments will be deleted. ~dbs, mod.]
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says: September 7, 2012 at 10:00 am
National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) – click to view at source[/caption]
It doesn’t appear to like a valid email and “anonymous”, and “Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies for March” found at this comment from Just The Facts isn’t loading.
My bad, I hotlinked, instead of saving, this image previously:
Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies for March:
[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="640"]
Since corrected. Apologies.
@David Ball – I’m grasping at straws when you argue that the absence of data supports your claim?? There is no data either way when I just linked you to a journal article in Science?? Which is it, man? Pictures of submarines and newspaper clippings are scientific evidence, there is no scientific evidence, or scientific evidence is unnecessary?
And how long is that natural cycle?
@Smokey – nice chart! Of course, its missing the last two months of data… and the red line means nothing… and the non-existent linear trend line is decidedly negative… other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
dvunkannon,
It is the only chart available. If you have a more recent copy, please post it.
While you’re at it, post your prediction of the incredible doom we face if Arctic ice all melts. Be specific.
The Antarctic holds more than ten times the volume of ice than the Arctic. Since Antarctic ice volume is growing, the cause of the [entirely natural] Arctic decline cannot be due to GHG emissions.
The causes of Arctic ice decline are most likely wind, changing ocean currents, and storms, among others. But the alarmist crowd wants everyone to believe that anthropogenic CO2 is the cause. As I have shown here, that belief is discredited. CO2 has no way of knowing which ice is Arctic, and which is Antarctic. And we have a long way to go before the Arctic is ice-free.
And even if the Arctic becomes ice-free, so what? It’s happened before, routinely and repeatedly. Today is no different.
From Just The Facts on September 7, 2012 at 11:58 am:
And did I blame you? Wasn’t your fault NSIDC went offline, no apologies warranted.
But in a general sense, the site should avoid “live” images when showing a “feature of the moment”. I’ve dug up an article from the archives before where what was supposed to be shown was obliterated by new data.
Up in the original post, both DMI and JAXA have live charts. Do they still show what was discussed? If so, for how much longer?
Don’t forget the “data revisionism”. Best to freeze such charts when posted.
kadaka (KD Knoebel)
Per your comment here;
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/02/wuwt-web-retooling-comments-welcome/#comment-1070243
in terms of the Reference Pages, to “maybe add sub-menus to that bar?”, done. Please take a look and let me know what you think.
Thanks
JTF
@Smokey – a more up-to-date version of the same data is already on the Sea Ice Page here at WUWT, just above the newly added REP memorial map of the Arctic.
On the subject of albedo, water vs ice at high latitudes, etc… er, no. See Fig 2 of
http://www.npolar.no/npcms/export/sites/np/en/people/stephen.hudson/Hudson11_AlbedoFeedback.pdf
The albedo of ocean, under clouds or clear sky, is always lower than ice.
That paper includes a model of an ice-free month (Aug 15 – Sep 15) with these results:
That forcing is globally and annually averaged, so that it can be compared with other forcings, but in reality it would be delivered to a relatively small part of the planet in a relatively short time.
The consequence would be destabilized NH weather, especially in the winter. Warm Arctic, Cold Continents.
But this has all happened before, right Smokely? It is a natural cycle, but for the life of me, I can’t remember what you said was the length of that cycle. And its cause… and the evidence… and the error bars…
And if you’ve got that Mann quote handy, about him being happy about malaria, just send it on!
From Just The Facts on September 7, 2012 at 12:55 pm:
Short toolbar, clean layout. Looks great. Thanks for listening.
The Sea Ice page taking forever to load on dial-up with many timeouts and how I have to “view image” to get individual graphs loaded into the cache so the page finally gets done… That’s me still being on dial-up, and likely can’t be improved until someone has a separate site somewhere with auto-running scripts to make as-displayed versions so the original super-sized images don’t need to be downloaded. Good thing there’s hardly anyone viewing the page on smartphones with non-unlimited data plans, who might complain about having to download many megabytes instead of so many kilobytes…
dvunkannon says:
September 7, 2012 at 12:23 pm
“@David Ball – I’m grasping at straws when you argue that the absence of data supports your claim??
I said that there is not enough data to support either claim.
dvunkannon says:
September 7, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I provided an empirical observation by the young captain of a whaling vessel, whose very lives depended on sea faring knowledge and experience. To dismiss this is both foolhardy and non scientific. There is very little data from the Arctic region that goes back very far, so you are making claims that are less supportable than my position.
Tim Folkerts says:
September 7, 2012 at 8:17 am
Please support your position with data. I looked back through the thread and could not find any to support your position that what is happening in the Arctic is unusual (based on a reasonable timescale).If you are talking 30 years, that seems like a very very small sampling of the 4.5 billion years of earths existence. It seems that the data point I provided, is still more than you have.