A response to Dr. Paul Bain's use of 'denier' in the scientific literature

Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.

Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by  Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University,  commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely.  – Anthony

Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:

The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.

This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?

For shame.

Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.

By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.

Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.

The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!

Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.

There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.

Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.

This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.

The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.

These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.

The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

In particular, I quote:

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a

friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.

I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government

advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether

drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it

would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a

result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re

being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.

Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?

And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!

Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.

Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.

For shame.

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June 25, 2012 9:51 pm

John Archer,
I think I was quite clear in my post that pointing out how Earth has been warmer in the past is irrelevant for the attribution, sensitivity, or severity of modern day climate change. Forget the anti-AGW “rah rah” stuff and actually think about it. Imagine if someone told you that a huge forest fire couldn’t be dangerous since there have been worse fires in Earth’s 4.6 billion year past. (it’s even worse when he doesn’t get Earth’s past right, which shows that understanding physics and being smart is not sufficient to understand climate…Bob Carter being an influential source for him is probably not helping his eduction in paleoclimate).
It doesn’t end there. Most of the post is a play from the whole “we don’t know everything, so we can’t say anything useful” book. It’s irritatingly off-base from a philosophical standpoint and is rather remarkable coming from a scientist. We don’t need to know every detail about glacial-interglacial variations to say something useful about what doubling or tripling CO2 does. Again, try applying this logic to virtually any aspect of your life, or other scientific disciplines

June 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Robert Brown wriote:

blocking the rate that you lose heat via radiation will increase the temperature of the surface that is radiating until losses in all channels — radiation, convection, conduction and evaporation (of perspiration) once again balance heat production.

Requires emphasis. A small perturbation results in changing the proportion of heat loss by each mechanism.

June 25, 2012 10:12 pm

Now, as far as I know, the only experimentally proven (by Tyndall in 1859) thing about “greenhouse gases” is that they have the ability to absorb and re-emit some portion of infrared radiation. That is all.
And I can readily believe this. Right up to the year. Which leaves you with 152 years of physics to go!
I certainly encourage your continued study. You have some exciting times ahead of you! Why, only two years after this a guy named Maxwell published some amazing results that will help you learn about radiation! A few decades later a guy named Planck and another named Boltzmann and just a ton of other people — Lord Rayleigh, Thomas, Fourier, Arrhenius, Einstein, Bohr, Rutherford — well, they finally assembled a halfway decent picture of atoms and molecules, discovered that space and time are not independent and have a very peculiar transformational symmetry, invented this new kind of physics they called quantum mechanics and — oh yeah — they invented or enabled the invention of stuff like vacuum tubes, diodes, transistors, and the most amazing experimental apparatus! You’ll really enjoy learning about it.
And when you’re done, then you’ll learn just a whole lot more about gases in general, where there isn’t really anything special or peculiar about greenhouse gases, they just are gas molecules that happen to have quantum levels that facilitate the scattering of electromagnetic radiation in certain wavelengths. But of course Tyndall knew practically nothing of this, and had only the most primitive of apparatus. No wonder you are so confused!
My own suggestions would be that instead of trying to go through it year by year you start by getting a book or two on introductory physics and work through them. They will get you through at least Maxwell’s Equations and light at a very elementary level. Then you can tackle a not-too-difficult book on modern physics. That ought to be enough to help you understand why carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas that is directly experimentally observed to help trap heat delivered to the Earth by the sun and, as a consequence, raise the mean temperature of the planet by some debatebable but significant amount about its expected greybody temperature (think, mean temperature of the moon).
Then you can stop wasting everybody’s time, too! We didn’t know you were stuck in the mid-19th century! Goodness, we’ve made a bit of progress since then I can tell you!
rgb

Gary Hladik
June 25, 2012 10:13 pm

davidmhoffer says (June 25, 2012 at 9:25 pm): “If one throws a ball up in the air, itz velocity at the peak of itz trajectory is zero. Since, at the peak of itz trajectory, the velocity is zero, the ball cannot get down.”
And THAT explains why nobody’s been to the moon! Dang, it IS just like eradicating mosquitos! 🙂

Marcel Kincaid
June 25, 2012 10:16 pm

“honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that”
No, that’s not honest at all. *Most* whatchamacallits *do* deny AGW; it’s only a relatively small number who have learned from places like WUWT that it’s politically savvy, at least at times, to acknowledge AGW. The vast majority of whatchamacallits will readily believe *anything* that presents itself as being contrary to “CAGW” or whatever it is that those dastardly hoaxers at CRU claim … even if it rejects the Greenhouse Effect altogether, as with the work of G&T and Tim Curtin and all those folks who claim that the GE violates the 2LOT — even when Roy Spencer tried to set them straight, many continued to believe such nonsense. Whatever you want to call it, that is *not* skepticism. Consider someone like Joe Bastardi who got all upset because a whatchamacallit article at a whatchamacallit site had a disclaimer at the *bottom* of the article rather than the top and he didn’t read that far before spreading it around. He didn’t care about the quality of the content, just what he thought the implications were. And he’s a *leader* of the whatchamacallit movement. And movement it is … ideological politics, not science, certainly not skeptical science.

June 25, 2012 10:18 pm

Requires emphasis. A small perturbation results in changing the proportion of heat loss by each mechanism.
AND an increase in base temperature to drive it, but yes, sure. But in each channel the only way to push more power out is to increase the temperature differential — or do work. To maintain total power balance when you partially block an outgoing channel and maintain the input, the temperature must increase. And it does, until balance is reestablished.
rgb

Greg House
June 25, 2012 10:24 pm

Robert Brown says:
June 25, 2012 at 10:12 pm
Planck …Boltzmann … Lord Rayleigh, Thomas, Fourier, Arrhenius, Einstein, Bohr, Rutherford …quantum mechanic…vacuum tubes, diodes, transistors,…gases in general…Maxwell’s Equations…light……moon.
========================================================
Yeah, Robert, just provide a link… you know… http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/22/a-response-to-dr-paul-bains-use-of-denier-in-scientific-literature/#comment-1018147

Luther Wu
June 25, 2012 10:40 pm

Chris Colose says:
June 25, 2012 at 9:51 pm
“…>
________________________
The points you make are remarkable only for their familiarity.
Logical fallacies wrapped in passionate appeals still fall short of the mark.
Until you realize that there are many are out there with understanding of logic and with reasoning skills developed far beyond those which you currently possess, then you will only expose yourself to dismissal as an undeveloped intellect and will convince no one of anything.
You want to change the world?
Change your thinking.

davidmhoffer
June 25, 2012 10:41 pm

I’ve got it! I figure out the experiment to do. And I mean the ULTIMATE experiment.
First, we get rid of all the mosquitos. This will enable us to go to the moon.
Now, we don’t have to go ourselves. All we need to do is give the moon an atmosphere and see if it heats up. We can even give it an atmosphere with no CO2, see what happens, and then add come CO2 and see what happens then.
OK, so sounds like a tall order, but now that there are no more mosquitos, and we can go to the moon, we can take stuff with us, or even send it in advance. What I propose is that we build a Gigantic Receptical of Earth Gas. Yup, we send it to the moon.
Now I know what everyone is going to say. Since Earth Gas (the technical name for what we commonly call atmosphere) has CO2 in it, we’d have to extract it first for the experiment to be valid. I’ve got that figured too. Magic button. That’s right, an air conditioner. We cool that Earth Gas off until the CO2 freezes and precipitates out. This has an additional bonus. It prevents our detractors from claiming that all we did was send a Gigantic Recepticle of Earth Gas that was full of hot air!
Now here’s the part I am concerned about. Suppose the moon heats up like crazy when we do this? What then? Can we risk being responsible for destroying the moon’s ecosystem? Before we start this experiment, I think we have to consider the amount of hot air on the moon we might have on our hands, and how to get it back inside the Gigantic Receptical ofEarth Gas. This might prove difficult, even with the mosquitos gone, because my understanding is that other similar experiments here on earth have recorded hot air coming out of a Gigantic Receptical of Earth Gas, but never going in.
But let’s assume we get the hot air back into the Gigantic Receptical of Earth Gas. How do we get it back to earth? We know from bog standard physics that once the Gigantic Receptical of Earth Gas reaches the peak of its trajectory (the moon) it cannot ever come back. Maybe we should think this through, because without the hot air that the Gigantic Receptical of Earth Gas spews on a constant basis, the earth might actually cool off and start an ice age.

George E. Smith;
June 25, 2012 10:42 pm

“””””…..Gary Hladik says:
June 25, 2012 at 10:13 pm
davidmhoffer says (June 25, 2012 at 9:25 pm): “If one throws a ball up in the air, itz velocity at the peak of itz trajectory is zero. Since, at the peak of itz trajectory, the velocity is zero, the ball cannot get down……”””””
But once you turn loose of the ball, its acceleration is never zero, till it comes to rest on the surface.
Consider the function y = exp (-1/x^2) to which the global CO2-Temperature data can be fitted at least as good as to T2 = T1 + log ((CO2)2 / (CO2)1)
y = 0 at x =0. dy/dx = 0 at x = 0, so it isn’t moving, and d2y/dx2 =0 at x=0, so it also isn’t accelerating. Every derivative is zero at x = 0, so obviously it can never go any where yet at x = 1, it reaches a value y = 1/e ; go figure.

June 25, 2012 10:43 pm

Marcel Kincaid says:
June 25, 2012 at 10:16 pm
And movement it is … ideological politics, not science, certainly not skeptical science.

Hiya, MK! How’s the view from the pulpit in the CAGW cathedral these days?

June 25, 2012 10:54 pm

Chris Colose says:
June 25, 2012 at 9:51 pm
John Archer,
I think I was quite clear in my post that pointing out how Earth has been warmer in the past is irrelevant for the attribution, sensitivity, or severity of modern day climate change.

Because modern day climate change is different from a couple of million years’ of repetitively cyclical climate change — exactly how?

Patrick Davis
June 25, 2012 10:59 pm

“Robert Brown says:
June 25, 2012 at 10:12 pm
That ought to be enough to help you understand why carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas that is directly experimentally observed to help trap heat delivered to the Earth by the sun….”
No it doesn’t. CO2 cannot trap heat, it simply impossible to do that. Try again.

davidmhoffer
June 25, 2012 11:04 pm

Robert Brown;
A few decades later a guy named Planck and another named Boltzmann and just a ton of other people — Lord Rayleigh, Thomas, Fourier, Arrhenius, Einstein, Bohr, Rutherford — well, they finally assembled a halfway decent picture of atoms and molecules
>>>>>>
Sir, I must reprimand you. You left out Milikan. For this discussion, recalling Milikan, who won a Nobel prize in physics himself, is crucial. Why? (Of course you know this story, but I need an excuse to tell it, so I will pretend you don’t).
See Milikan disputed some of the physics that Einstein came up with. Now a lot of folks thought Einstein was correct because his theories were based on known physics, his logic and math was sound, it was really hard to dispute a lot of what he published.
But Milikan wasn’t content with that. Milikan wanted proof. And only an experiment would provide that proof. But so many scientists went along with Einstein, that no one bothered to do the experiment. So, Milikan decide to do the experiment himself.
Now in those days, the kind of precision equipment that one needs for that particular experiment just wasn’t sitting around on the shelf. Plus, Milikan wasn’t just any physicist, he was a Nobel prize winning physicist, so if he was going to win this argument with Einstein, he was going to make darn sure his experiment was a slam dunk.
Milikan left out no details. No room for other effects, he figured out how to eliminate absolutely every possibility from his experiment except the one exact thing he wanted to measure to prove Einstein wrong. It took him ten years. Now that’s dedication, working on an experiment for a decade just to prove Einstein wrong.
And, as I’m certain you know Dr Brown, Milikan’s experiment, ten years in duration, proved Einstein to be correct.
If only there were other people who, so certain of their knowledge of physics, of how energy flows between hot and cold bodies, and of how the greenhouse effect works, who dispute the work of…. well…. Stefan, Boltzmann, Planck, Wien, Raleigh, Thomas, Fourrier, Arrhenius, Bohr, Rutherford, Einstein, Milikan….. had the fortitude, perserverance, dedication and integrity to STFU and do the experiment they are so certain will prove them right and all those phycists wrong…. but alas, today’s critics of known physics just aren’t made of the same stuff as Milikan was. They’d rather spew hot air than do the actual research required to learn if they are right or not.

June 25, 2012 11:20 pm

davidmhoffer says:
June 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm
She waggled her finger at me, and put me in my place. “If they cannot get rid of mosquitos, tiny little mosquitos, how could they possibly go to the moon?”

Even Noah couldn’t do it, and he only had to swat two of ’em…

Gary Hladik
June 25, 2012 11:25 pm

davidmhoffer says (June 25, 2012 at 10:41 pm): “I’ve got it! I figure out the experiment to do. And I mean the ULTIMATE experiment.
First, we get rid of all the mosquitos. This will enable us to go to the moon.”
Y’know, some threads on WUWT just get better with age. 🙂

June 25, 2012 11:31 pm

Robert Brown says:
June 25, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Remember unleaded gasoline? They removed an additive that cost money, and then sold it for more money.

Not exactly — they just stopped adding it and justified the price increase by saying there was now “more gasoline” in a gallon of gasoline.

George E. Smith;
June 25, 2012 11:43 pm

Rudolph Clausius Statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Loose translation, because he of course said it in German.
No CYCLIC machine may have no other effect than to transport HEAT from a source at one Temperature to a sink at a higher Temperature.
Hidden clues to understanding.
# 1 “””””…..CYCLIC…..””””
#2 “””””…..NO OTHER EFFECT……”””””
#3 “””””…..HEAT……””””””
#4 “””””…..TEMPERATURE……”””””
In particular, note the complete absence of the word ENERGY.
(Solar) Electromagnetic Radiation is a form of ENERGY; it is not a form of HEAT. It can be used to transport ENERGY from one place to anotherand converted into WORK or where that ENERGY can be transformed into HEAT or “heating”, a waste form of energy that can’t be completely converted back to mechanical work.
A grocery cart can also be used to transport ENERGY either in the form of steak which you can eat to keep warm (tofu too) or charcoal brickettes to heat the Weber grill at the global Climate measuring sites. A grocery cart is also NOT a form of electromagnetic radiation.
Temperature appears nowhere in Maxwell’s equations for the electromagnetif field and wave propagation. Maxwell’s equations and his theory of electromagnetism include “epsilon nought” the permittivity of free space, and “mu nough”t the permeability of free space.
Those two fundamental physical constants, and the value of (c), the propagation group velocity of electromagnetic radiation are THE ONLY fundamental constants of physics for which there are exact values. Well I lied, there actually is an exact value for (g) the acceleration due to (earth’s) gravity 9.80665 m/s^2. It has an exact value; nobody knows any place on earth that actually has that particular gravitational acceleration value; but they surely exist somewhere.
Given that Maxwellian Electromagnetism (let’s not forget Heinrich Hertz) has the only exact fundamental physical constants, one would think it is a very solid theory.
And I don’t really care what wiki says about it or much of anything else either.

June 25, 2012 11:59 pm

Robert Brown says
…atmosphere that is conveniently mostly transparent right where the sun has its radiation intensity spectral peak

Henry says
That is also a general misconception,”mostly”. You forget to add that the combined efforts of Oxygen/ozone, H2O and CO2, mainly , turns at least 25% of all incoming sunshine away, to begin with, also by re-radiation, back into space. In the case of H2O and CO2, it re-radiates strongly at around 2 and 4 um – the warm IR radiation. And here I am only talking about the gasses in the atmosphere, not the clouds. So, if the GHG’s were not there, we would get 25% more sunshine, mainly a lot more UV, but also some more IR on our heads.
You have no exact balancesheet of the cooling and warming properties of each of the GHG’s , yet you claim to know for sure that the net effect of more CO2 is that of warming.
Apart from that you seem in complete denial that CO2 also causes cooling by taking part in biological cycle
I have commented on this earlier, here
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/22/a-response-to-dr-paul-bains-use-of-denier-in-scientific-literature/#comment-1017528
For those of you who want to learn more about the GH effect
you should at least try to understand all that I have written here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011

June 26, 2012 12:03 am

Robert Brown says
…atmosphere that is conveniently mostly transparent right where the sun has its radiation intensity spectral peak

Henry says
That is also a general misconception,”mostly”. You forget to add that the combined efforts of Oxygen/ozone, H2O and CO2, mainly , turns at least 25% of all incoming sunshine away, to begin with, also by re-radiation, back into space. In the case of H2O and CO2, it re-radiates strongly at around 2 and 4 um – the warm IR radiation. And here I am only talking about the gasses in the atmosphere, not the clouds. So, if the GHG’s were not there, we would get 25% more sunshine, mainly a lot more UV, but also some more IR on our heads.
You have no exact balancesheet of the cooling and warming properties of each of the GHG’s , yet you claim to know for sure that the net effect of more CO2 is that of warming.
Apart from that you seem in complete denial that CO2 also causes cooling by taking part in biological cycle
I have commented on this earlier, here
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/22/a-response-to-dr-paul-bains-use-of-denier-in-scientific-literature/#comment-1017528
For those of you who want to learn more about the GH effect, both the cooling and warming effect,
you should at least try to understand all that I have written here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011

Marcel Kincaid
June 26, 2012 12:11 am

“‘And movement it is … ideological politics, not science, certainly not skeptical science.’
Hiya, MK! How’s the view from the pulpit in the CAGW cathedral these days?”
This simply further confirms what I wrote … but then, tu quoque fallacies tend to do that.
And when I wrote my comment above, I hadn’t even seen the lengthy attempts by Robert Brown to convince people here of the facts of basic physics, let alone the reality of AGW. This thread alone falsifies his assertion. If he’s going to talk “honestly”, he should explicitly withdraw it .

mydogsgotnonose
June 26, 2012 12:13 am

davidmhoffer; 11.04 pm. Nahle recently used a Mylar balloon to contain the CO2 in a ‘PET bottle’ experiment. He observed no detectable temperature rise: http://www.slayingtheskydragon.com/images/PDFs/BERTHOLD-KLEIN.pdf
Assuming this experiment can be replicated, doesn’t it show that the thermalisation of absorbed IR energy by this GHG is indirect? It operates at constant pressure so no adiabatic temperature rise [and increase in absorptivity], also the PET wall thickness was reduced by a factor of ~12.
The science is easy to deduce; it is probably kinetically preferred for GHGs to act as an energy transfer medium with indirect thermalisation at clouds etc. In turn this may explain Miskolczi. You explain it from basic statistical thermodynamics which it appears modern ‘science’ has forgotten.

June 26, 2012 12:13 am

Bill –
//”Because modern day climate change is different from a couple of million years’ of repetitively cyclical climate change — exactly how?”//
You’re missing the point. While it’s scientifically interesting to figure out whether some time in the past 1,000 years, 10,000 years, two million years, etc were a bit warmer or a bit cooler than today, it’s even more interesting to figure out why and what it means. The atmospheric physics often leads to esoteric details that aren’t of much interest to society. Even more useful to them might be what the modern implications of such a warming would be, of which the past is but one tool to constrain the future.
The last time global temperatures were in excess of modern by at least 1-2 C was probably the last interglacial (~120,000 years ago), due largely to a conspiracy between different orbital parameters than today, though the “global warming” had a different seasonal and latitudinal structure to it. If you want to talk about climate changes on the order of 3-4 C or warmer than modern you need to go back millions of years (to the Pliocene) and even further back to the Eocene for temps like 10 C warmer than modern. Even if you are interested in the long-term evolution of climate throughout the Cenozoic, from a greenhouse to icehouse type climate regime, this is primarily a story of CO2 (which is regulated on these timescales by plate tectonic based phenomena and silicate weathering…you can read a primer of Earth’s climate history by me at
http://blog.timesunion.com/weather/why-does-climate-change-causes-and-timescales/1261/
Unfortunately there is no perfect past analog. Climate changes over the period of civilized humans are small…in terms of global averages, debates about the MWP vs. modern, or early Holocene, etc are arguments about a couple tenths of a degree. While modern changes are readily detectable, the main concern is about future warming if we continue along business-as-usual emission pathways. The only analogs for this are in the distant past, but in these times there were not billions of dollars in coastal infrastructure; there were not wal-mart parking lots that ecology had to deal with (instead of simply moving); and there weren’t 7+ billion people on the planet for resource problems to be an issue. There is also the rate of warming which is important, and a typical glacial to interglacial transition is much slower.
But in all cases, these climates are markedly different than today, and even moreso the greater the temperature anomaly is. Sea levels were at least 6 m higher at the last interglacial, a few tens of meters at the Pliocene. The polar ice sheets were severely reduced in extent, and the atmosphere/ocean dynamics had different structures to it (e.g., something like a “permanent El Nino state” in the Pliocene). The implications for such a transition to a similar state today would be profound, and it’s not farfetched given our capacity to triple or quadruple CO2 on a century timescale. There is no evidence from past climate reconstructions, from modern observations, from theory, or from comprehensive general circulation models that there will be any magic saviour to completely offset the radiative forcing from CO2…such a mechanism is absent in the Holocene (where variability is rather small), and the scant evidence published for low sensitivities may be attractive here but is not well supported in the scientific literature, often for very elementary reasons.
Whether the effects of a Pliocene-like transition is “catastrophic” is not a scientific question, but it is beyond dispute that this would lead to a climate unlike anything agriculture based society has ever seen on a large scale. Evidence from such past climates does not at all point to a “low sensitivity,” and this is something most sensible people take seriously. If you are offended by the term “denier” that stop trying to get past fundamental physics, results from decades of study, and the evidence from the past climate record, with poorly thought out arguments, repetitive one-liner talking points, logical fallacies, appeals to e-mail scandals, and other forms of rhetoric that only work for people with no scientific training.

June 26, 2012 12:16 am

What a load of tripe. The term “denier” is used to describe those who believe current GW is not AGW, I’ve never heard it used to describe those accepting of AGW but skeptical of CAGW.
If Dr. Brown wants to believe the term “denier” is intended to liken “AGW deniers” I’m sure he will, but when I’ve seen it used, it’s use is actually intended to differentiate between AGW skeptics (who have reasoned scientific arguments against the more extreme claims of catastrophe), and the “skeptics” who create their own weird nonscience theories.
[Reply: Without rehashing details that have been posted here regularly, the term “denier” was originally used by a newspaper columnist, and she specifically linked scientific skeptics with Holocaust deniers. ~dbs, mod.]

Marcel Kincaid
June 26, 2012 12:21 am

” CO2 cannot trap heat, it simply impossible to do that. ”
I guess I should throw away my blankets and coats.
And on this thread I learned that energy from the sun cannot travel through space because space is colder than the sun. Well, to tell the truth, I’ve heard this idea that thermal radiation cannot transfer from a hot body to a colder body before from whatchamacallits (certainly not skeptics, but not “deniers” either since they *assert* so many things).

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