Guest post by Floyd Doughty
Some years ago when I was investigating the climate change issue in my spare time, I ran across a short article by James Hansen on the GISS website under “Education Resource Materials”, dated January, 1999. James Hansen is arguably the father of modern Anthropogenic Global Warming dogma. So I saved the web page for future reference because of some of the predictions contained within it, as well as the incredibly balanced and well-reasoned attitude expressed regarding the philosophy of scientific investigation. We could all benefit from Dr. Hansen’s wisdom. For example,
“Skepticism thus plays an essential role in scientific research, and, far from trying to silence skeptics, science invites their contributions. So too, the global warming debate benefits from traditional scientific skepticism”.
And another gem:
“Although scientists have a right to express personal opinions related to policy issues, it seems to me that we can be of more use by focusing on the science and carrying that out with rigorous objectivity. That approach seems to be essential for the success, as well as the “fun”, of scientific research”.
Given what has transpired in the intervening 13 years, it is not surprising that I can no longer find the article on the GISS site (but I may not have dug deeply enough). Therefore, I am making my copy of the article available to you for your reading pleasure. There is such a wealth of fascinating statements contained in this short document, it is impossible to decide where to begin. I suspect others will find numerous points to comment on. By the way, the embedded link to Dr. Hansen’s book review is still working, and I found that to be an interesting read as well.
I found Dr. Hansen’s chart of projected global temperature anomalies intriguing, particularly in light of the observational record of the last decade:
This chart, as displayed in the January, 1999 document, is a replica of the global temperature projections, considering three scenarios that Dr. Hansen presented during his celebrated 1988 United States Senate testimony, but updated with the actual observed GISS temperature record as of 1998.
Scenario A represented projected global temperatures assuming “a fast growth rate for greenhouse gases”. Scenarios B and C “have a moderate growth rate for greenhouse gases until year 2000, after which greenhouse gases stop increasing in Scenario C”. I thought it might be enlightening, or at least entertaining, to compare the current GISS global temperature record with what was presented in January, 1999. The “… traditional analysis … global annual-mean surface air temperature change …” data series was downloaded from
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/ (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/Fig.A.txt)
This time series was plotted in Microsoft Excel. Unfortunately, time series data values that were used to produce the original chart did not seem to be available. Therefore, the Excel chart of the current GISS global temperature record was rather crudely scaled and overlain onto an image of the original chart, with the following result:
The data shown in red are from the original image published in 1999. The blue points are what are currently available for download at the GISS website. The slight apparent time shift in the vertical grid lines was necessary because, for some reason, Dr. Hansen originally plotted yearly averages between tick marks rather than centered on tick marks. The vertical scales have not been altered, and are as exact as I can make them with the manual overlay. The blue observational data points seem to roughly lie between Dr. Hansen’s Scenario B (moderate, continued growth rate in greenhouse gases) and Scenario C (moderate growth rate in greenhouse gases until year 2000, after which greenhouse gases stop increasing). Interestingly, the data currently available for download (blue) seem to be indicating a slightly warmer trend than what was presented in 1999 (red). After manually applying a slight downward bulk shift (or “bias”) to the overlay of the current record (blue), the two time series seem to be in slightly better agreement:
It seems the historical GISS temperature record has been somewhat altered, or “adjusted” since January of 1999, such that historical global temperature anomaly values are now slightly more positive than what was published at that time. Perhaps a base line change was applied to the data since the 1999 article. But data after 1988 appear to be “adjusted” to a greater extent than data prior to 1988. Well, it is what it is, and the best we can do is to calibrate the current GISS temperature time series to the years prior to 1988, under the charitable assumption that perhaps the points that were added to the original 1988 chart in the 1999 article were accidentally mis-posted.
Now that the current version of historical temperature measurements are approximately calibrated to the historic record as presented by Dr. Hansen to the United States Senate in 1988, it seems that the GISS record in the years following 1988 have roughly approximated Dr. Hansen’s Scenario C. But wait – that scenario was a projection of temperature variations assuming greenhouse gases stop increasing after the year 2000. Did I miss something? Was the IPCC wildly successful after all?
It is also illustrative to compare Dr. Hansen’s 1988 prediction with the satellite record. UAH NCDC temperature data from analyses by Roy Spencer and John Christy was downloaded from Dr. Spencer’s website:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures (http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt)
Since these data are monthly averages of global temperature derived from satellite measurements, the global temperature data series was further averaged over each calendar year to enable direct comparison with the raw, currently available GISS data. The UAH NCDC chart was then manually scaled and bulk shifted in order to calibrate with the original 1999 GISS data (since the base periods for the two data sets are different). The result of this crude scaling exercise is shown with the UAH NCDC data in green, compared with the current, unbiased GISS data in blue:
After applying the manual bulk shift to compensate for the different base line periods, it appears that the satellite data agree reasonably well with the current, unbiased GISS surface station data – except for the trend, as others have pointed out. GISS estimates since 1998 seem to be consistently higher than the UAH NCDC satellite estimates. More accurately stated (since the calibration was visual only), the GISS trend appears more positive than the UAH NCDC satellite data trend. Interesting. Now it looks like Dr. Hansen’s Scenario C global temperature forecast that he presented to the United States Senate in 1988 was amazingly accurate, according to the satellite-derived global temperature record. That is truly a remarkable achievement. So now let’s employ a bit of faulty logic that is similar to that which is routinely applied by AGW proponents: “The observational data fit the model, so the model must be accurate”. Anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions must have ceased in the year 2000. And I missed it. Rats.
In the interest of full disclosure, I must unambiguously state that I am a state board-certified Professional Geophysicist nearing retirement after more than 38 years spent in the search for new oil and gas reserves. As such, AGW proponents may simply dismiss my comments as the ravings of an “oil company shill”. There is no statement that I can swear to that would convince them otherwise. So be it. The truth is that the observations, opinions, and views I have expressed are the result of independent critical thought, are strictly my own, and do not in any way represent those of my employer, the oil industry in general, or any other entities.
Floyd Doughty
May 10, 2012
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Source – the Wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20010223232940/http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/
The Global Warming Debate
By James Hansen — January 1999
The only way to have real success in science … is to describe the evidence very carefully without regard to the way you feel it should be. If you have a theory, you must try to explain what’s good about it and what’s bad about it equally. In science you learn a kind of standard integrity and honesty. — Richard Feynman
In my view, we are not doing as well as we could in the global warming debate. For one thing, we have failed to use the opportunity to help teach the public about how science research works. On the contrary, we often appear to the public to be advocates of fixed adversarial positions. Of course, we can try to blame this on the media and politicians, with their proclivities to focus on antagonistic extremes. But that doesn’t really help.
The fun in science is to explore a topic from all angles and figure out how something works. To do this well, a scientist learns to be open-minded, ignoring prejudices that might be imposed by religious, political or other tendencies (Galileo being a model of excellence). Indeed, science thrives on repeated challenge of any interpretation, and there is even special pleasure in trying to find something wrong with well-accepted theory. Such challenges eventually strengthen our understanding of the subject, but it is a never-ending process as answers raise more questions to be pursued in order to further refine our knowledge.
Skepticism thus plays an essential role in scientific research, and, far from trying to silence skeptics, science invites their contributions. So too, the global warming debate benefits from traditional scientific skepticism.
I have argued in a recent book review that some “greenhouse skeptics” subvert the scientific process, ceasing to act as objective scientists, rather presenting only one side, as if they were lawyers hired to defend a particular viewpoint. But some of the topics focused on by the skeptics are recognized as legitimate research questions, and also it is fair to say that the injection of environmental, political and religious perspectives in midstream of the science research has occurred from both sides in the global warming debate.
So, what to do? Most scientists are willing to spend part of their time communicating with the public about how science works. And they should be: after all, the financial support for most research is provided ultimately by the public. But one quickly learns that such communication is not easy, at least not for many of us.
In late 1998, I was asked to debate the well-known greenhouse skeptic Dr. Patrick Michaels of the University of Virginia. I summarize here some key points in the debate, “A Public Debate on the Science of Global Warming”, held at the New York Hilton, Nov. 20, 1998, and organized by the American Association for the Rhetoric of Science and Technology. A copy of my entire contribution may be downloaded as a PDF document (Note: This document is 597 kB and requires a special viewer such as the free Adobe Reader.).
I agreed to participate in this debate with Dr. Michaels after learning that he had used (or misused) a figure of mine in testimony to the United States Congress. The figure showed the first predictions made with a 3-D climate model and time-dependent climate forcings — it was a figure from a paper that we had published in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1988 and it had been a principal basis for testimony that I gave to the United States Senate in 1988.
The figure that we published is reproduced here as Fig. 1.
Fig. 1: Climate model calculations reported in Hansen et al. (1988).
It shows the simulated global mean temperature for three climate forcing scenarios. Scenario A has a fast growth rate for greenhouse gases. Scenarios B and C have a moderate growth rate for greenhouse gases until year 2000, after which greenhouse gases stop increasing in Scenario C. Scenarios B and C also included occasional large volcanic eruptions, while scenario A did not. The objective was to illustrate the broad range of possibilities in the ignorance of how forcings would actually develop. The extreme scenarios (A with fast growth and no volcanos, and C with terminated growth of greenhouse gases) were meant to bracket plausible rates of change. All of the maps of simulated climate change that I showed in my 1988 testimony were for the intermediate scenario B, because it seemed the most likely of the three scenarios.
But when Pat Michaels testified to congress in 1998 and showed our 1988 predictions (Fig. 1) he erased the curves for scenarios B and C, and showed the result only for scenario A. He then argued that, since the real world temperature had not increased as fast as this model calculation, the climate model was faulty and there was no basis for concern about climate change, specifically concluding that the Kyoto Protocol was “a useless appendage to an irrelevant treaty”.
Although scientists have a right to express personal opinions related to policy issues, it seems to me that we can be of more use by focusing on the science and carrying that out with rigorous objectivity. That approach seems to be essential for the success, as well as the “fun”, of scientific research.
Fig. 1 is a good case in point. We now know (Hansen et al. 1998a, 1998b) that the growth rate of greenhouse gases in the period 1988-1998 has been flat, very similar to scenarios B and C (which are nearly the same until year 2000). Thus we can compare real world temperature changes in the past decade (filled circles in Fig. 1) with model calculations for the B-C scenarios. Taking account of the fact that the real world volcano occurred in 1991, rather than 1995 as assumed in the model, it is apparent that the model did a good job of predicting global temperature change. But the period of comparison is too short and the climate change too small compared to natural variability for the comparison to provide a meaningful check on the model’s sensitivity to climate forcings. With data from another decade we will be able to make a much clearer evaluation of the model.
As the opinions in the global warming debate do not seem to be converging, it seems to me that one useful thing that can be done is to clearly delineate the fundamental differences. Then, as our scientific understanding advances over the next several years, we can achieve more convincing evaluations of the global warming issue. (Stated less generously, this is a way to pin down those who keep changing their arguments.)
Table 1 summarizes chief differences that I delineated for the sake of a discussion with Richard Lindzen, who has provided the intellectual underpinnings for the greenhouse skeptics, in October 1998. I also used this list (Table 1) as the principal fodder for my “affirmative closing argument” in the debate with Pat Michaels.
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Table 1. Key Differences with Skeptics
1. Observed global warming: real or measurement problem?
Hansen: global warming is 0.5-0.75°C in past century, at least ~0.3°C in past 25 years.
Lindzen: since about 1850 “…more likely … 0.1±0.3°C” (MIT Tech Talk, 34, #7, 1989).
2. Climate sensitivity (equilibrium response to 2xCO2)
Lindzen: ~< 1°C
Hansen: 3±1°C
Comments: paleoclimate data, improved climate models, and process studies may narrow uncertainties; observed climate change on decadal time scales will provide constraint if climate forcings are measured; implicit information on climate sensitivity can be extracted from observed changes in ocean heat storage.
3. Water vapor feedback
Lindzen: negative, upper tropospheric water vapor decreases with global warming.
Hansen: positive, upper and lower tropospheric water vapor increase with global warming.
References: (these include references by Lindzen stating that, in response to global warming, water vapor will decrease at altitudes above 2-3 km).
Comment: accurate observations of interannual changes (several years) and long-term changes (1-2 decades) of upper tropospheric water vapor could provide defining data.
4. CO2 contribution to the ~33°C natural greenhouse effect
Lindzen: “Even if all other greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide and methane) were to disappear, we would still be left with over 98 percent of the current greenhouse effect.” Cato Review, Spring issue, 87-98, 1992; “If all CO2 were removed from the atmosphere, water vapor and clouds would still provide almost all of the present greenhouse effect.” Res. Explor. 9, 191-200, 1993.
Lacis and Hansen: removing CO2, with water vapor kept fixed, would cool the Earth 5-10°C; removing CO2 and trace gases with water vapor allowed to respond would remove most of the natural greenhouse effect.
5. When will global warming and climate change be obvious?
Lindzen: I personally feel that the likelihood over the next century of greenhouse warming reaching magnitudes comparable to natural variability remains small.
Hansen: “With the climatological probability of a hot summer represented by two faces (say painted red) of a six-faced die, judging from our model by the 1990s three or four of the six die faces will be red. It seems to us that this is a sufficient ‘loading’ of the dice that it will be noticeable to the man in the street.” J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364, 1988.
6. Planetary disequilibrium
Hansen: Earth is out of radiative equilibrium with space by at least approximately 0.5 W/m2 (absorbing more energy than it emits).
Comments: This is the most fundamental measure of the state of the greenhouse effect. Because the disequilibrium is a product of the long response time of the climate system, which in turn is a strong function of climate sensitivity, confirmation of the disequilibrium provides information on climate sensitivity and an indication of how much additional global warming is “in the pipeline” due to gases already added to the atmosphere.
This disequilibrium could be measured as the sum of the rate of heat storage in the ocean plus the net energy going into the melting of ice. Existing technology, including very precise measurements of ocean and ice sheet topography, could provide this information.
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Differences 1 (reality of global warming) and 2 (climate sensitivity) are very fundamental. From my perspective, strong evidence is already accumulating that weighs heavily against the skeptics contentions that there is no significant global warming and that climate sensitivity is low. These issues will become even clearer over the next several years.
Difference 3 (water vapor feedback) is related to climate sensitivity, but is so fundamental that it deserves specific attention. The topic has resisted definitive empirical evaluation, because of the poor state of water vapor measurements and the fact that tropospheric temperature change has been small in the past 20 years. Ozone depletion, which affects upper tropospheric temperatures, has also complicated this problem. This situation will change if, as I would anticipate, ozone depletion flattens and global temperature continues to rise.
Difference 4 has an academic flavor, and is perhaps not worth special efforts. But it illustrates a lack of understanding of the basic greenhouse mechanism by Lindzen.
Difference 5 is fundamental because substantial efforts to curb global warming may require that climate change first be apparent to people. If our assessments are right, we are in fact on the verge of warming being noticeable to the perceptive person-in-the-street. (See related material Global Temperature Trends and the Common Sense Climate Index.)
Difference 6, concerning the planetary “disequilibrium” (imbalance between incoming and outgoing radiation) is the most fundamental measure of the state of the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. The disequilibrium should exist if climate sensitivity is as high (and thus the ocean thermal response time so long) as we estimate, and if increasing greenhouse gases are the dominant climate forcing mechanism. We have presented evidence (Hansen et al. 1997) of a disequilibrium of at least 0.5 W/m2. This imbalance is the basis by which we could predict that record global temperatures would occur within a few years, that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s, and that the first decade of next century will be warmer than the 1990s, despite the existence of natural climate variability. I do not know of a reference where Lindzen specifically addresses planetary radiation imbalance, but his positions regarding climate sensitivity and the ocean response time clearly imply a smaller, negligible imbalance.
The important point is that the planetary radiation imbalance is measurable, via the ocean temperature, because the only place this excess energy can go is into the ocean and, probably to a less extent, into the melting of ice. If our estimates are approximately right, this heat storage should not escape detection during the next several years.
In summary, all of these issues are ones that the scientific community potentially can make progress on in the near future, if they receive appropriate attention. The real global warming debate, in the sense of traditional science, can be resolved to a large extent in a reasonable time.
References:
- Hansen, J. 1998. Book review of Sir John Houghton’s Global Warming: The Complete Briefing. J. Atmos. Chem. 30, 409-412.
- Hansen, J., I. Fung, A. Lacis, D. Rind, S. Lebedeff, R. Ruedy, G. Russell, and P. Stone 1988. Global climate changes as forecast by Goddard Institute for Space Studies three-dimensional model. J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364.
- Hansen, et al. 1997. Forcings and chaos in interannual to decadal climate change. J. Geophys. Res. 102, 25679-25720.
- Hansen, J., M. Sato, J. Glascoe and R. Ruedy 1998a. Common sense climate index: Is climate changing noticeably? Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 95, 4113-4120.
- Hansen, J., M. Sato, A. Lacis, R. Ruedy, I. Tegen, and E. Matthews 1998b. Perspective: Climate forcings in the industrial era. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 22, 12753-12758.
Chuck Wiese says:
May 13, 2012 at 12:01 am
“Eric Adler: Here is more indegestion for you. Below is the link to the NCDC climate records for the 48 lower US. When you click on this, select the last ten to fourtenn years of record and use a thirty year mean or longer base period and select the annual mean US temperature record.. Here you will find that my cooling trends are not limited to but a few select stations. So again, explain why CO2 would cause nightime temperatures to rise,but daytime maximums to fall greater to average out to a nation wide cooling trend, and match that up to the claims that CO2 causes the climate to warm. I will love to read your explanation. I’m sure it will be a breakthrough in science:”
There are a number of things wrong with your argument. First of all the US is 3% of the earth’s surface. Global warming does not mean that all areas warm at equal rates, and even over the long term, some areas get cooler and some get warmer. Other factors, El Nino, solar and aerosols which are sources of noise, can have short term effects larger than CO2.
If you look at good versus bad stations in the US, even over a center, there is a distribution of trends which ranges form -1 to plus 2 degrees per century, regardless of station quality. Look at figure 3 of the following report:
http://berkeleyearth.org/pdf/berkeley-earth-station-quality.pdf
HenryP says:
May 12, 2012 at 4:52 am
“A couple of days ago I pointed out at Warwick Hughes site that the conventional explanation for UHI is likely wrong, because cities generally have a higher albedo than surrounding areas. The cause of UHI is likely reduced evapotranspiration.”
So explain why night time temperature is influenced more by the UHI than daytime temperature? Doesn’t evaporation occur during the daytime and condensation at night? Doesn’t condensation release heat? Your argument doesn’t make any sense.
Eric Adler,
Show us your “–1 to +2º per century:
http://catallaxyfiles.com/files/2012/05/Mean-Temp-1.jpg
Eric Adler says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/10/a-blast-from-the-past-james-hansen-on-the-global-warming-debate-from-13-years-ago/#comment-984198
Henry says
It seems you got me confused with somebody else. I never said any such thing as what you claim.
I told you why I looked at maxima rather than any of those other stupid variables that everybody who is anybody in climatic science looks at and where I cannot even find out how often and how precise they are calibrated?
Because of this, hey – all of them, including you and all of the sceptics here – do not actually see what is most obvious.
http://letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
If you think my sample of 44 is too small then I challenge you to repeat my test with another 44 stations and at the same balance by latitude and 70/30 sea -inland. See what you get and then you get back to me?
Eric Adller said: “Are you really a meteorologist?
That is one hell of a run-on sentence that doesn’t lead to any conclusion.”
“I don’t see why you bother to mention Svensmark and cosmic rays. There is no real evidence to support the idea that cosmic rays influence the formation of clouds. Svensmark had to wait over a week for clouds to result from a burst of cosmic rays, in a few cherry picked cases. Real analysis of a larger number of events showed no correlation between Cosmic Rays and cloudiness. ”
Eric: To someone like you who is not a meteorologist, I can understand why it doesn’t make sense. You make no sense to me. The upshot of the statement is that solar shortwave radiation controls the saturation vapor pressure of the atmosphere by absorptive warming and convective heat transfer. GHG’s do not, in fact, they lower the saturation vapor prressure of air through radiational cooling of the troposphere in exchange for a higher effective emission height of the ground radiation and surface GHG effect. That puts a brake on GHG growth unless the solar short wave is increased. That is basic physics, but apparently too hard for you to understand claiming some sort of climate experise.
Svensmark’s new paper has drawn a lot of atttention. The jury is out on the actual physical verification, but the correlations are as astounding as the solar magnteic correlation is to temperature. Only a fool would discard those correlations in favor of CO2 causing warming, considering its r squared is about .38 compared to > = .92 for solar magnetic to temperature.
Eric Adler said: “There are a number of things wrong with your argument. First of all the US is 3% of the earth’s surface. Global warming does not mean that all areas warm at equal rates, and even over the long term, some areas get cooler and some get warmer. Other factors, El Nino, solar and aerosols which are sources of noise, can have short term effects larger than CO2.
If you look at good versus bad stations in the US, even over a center, there is a distribution of trends which ranges form -1 to plus 2 degrees per century, regardless of station quality. Look at figure 3 of the following report:”
Eric Adler: No. There are a number of things wrong with your argument. The 3% nonsense is al the more reason to be suspicious of your reasoning. If the oceans can truly buffer the total earth climate, then why does that small 3% refuse to warm? And the rest of your comments are as ridiculous as the first. So if the USA cooled for the last 14 years, which is what it has done, how did that happen as CO2 radiation has increased? Have we had a long wave trough persist in this part of the world acting as a cold air dump from the arctic while everyone else warmed for 14 years? Sorry, Eric, not in the records. So what is causing the cooling? Like every warmer I have spoken with you NEVER answer the question except for answering the above with unrelenting poppycock that makes no sense!
So I’ll ask you again because you did not answer the question. Why is the continental USA cooling when CO2 radiation increased in these areas? Why are GLOBAL temperatures not warming when Hansen’s models said they would? Hansen’s modeling predicted warming everywhere and don’t tell me it didn’t because I am in posession of climate model forecasts for the Pacific Northwest that predicted 1 degF of warming per decade through this past decade when , in fact, the Northwest COOLED by 1.61 degF, which makes a huge error of 2.61 degF. Explain that! The cooling in some places and warming in others does not fit any synoptic matching of jet stream patterns that would cause a persistant outflow of cold from the arctic in any one region. So like I’ve said, if you can’t explain the cooling in a rational, verifiable scientific way that can justify the claim that CO2 is causing global warming, the divergence in temperature trends compared to modeling forecasts completely invalidates and falsifies your claims and all the claims of Hansen and the warming priests. I am again waiting for a satisfactory answer that is not made of poppycock and blather.
Eric Adler said: “So explain why night time temperature is influenced more by the UHI than daytime temperature? Doesn’t evaporation occur during the daytime and condensation at night? Doesn’t condensation release heat? Your argument doesn’t make any sense.”
Eric: This again proves you don’t understand basic meteorology or physics. The night UHI effect is not caused by condensation. It is caused by radiational cooling from the ground that causes a temperature inversion and reduced vertical mixing up a dry adiabat to warmer air above relative to its hydrostatic height. That is especially true in the winter and cooler weather months. That decreased mixing allows for a discernable difference in temperature in urban vs. rural areas because the building heat energies do not get large enough to break a nightime inversion and some day inversions to convect away the small amount of heat energy that accumulates into the surrounding air and raises the temperature compared to rural settings with less heat emitting structures. The less convection, the lesser amount of Joules of energy transfer to raise the local ambient air temperature.
Chuck Wiese says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/10/a-blast-from-the-past-james-hansen-on-the-global-warming-debate-from-13-years-ago/#comment-984352
Henry@Chuck
I think I can confirm what you say there
I refer specifically to my table on minima
http://letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
(the third table, on the bottom)
Note that Las Vegas here has the highest warming rate on (my) record
e.g. compare to Cheyenne (in the same minima table)
but I do think that increasing vegetation especially in Las Vegas – it used be desert- may also have played its role here/
it (i.e. the new vegetation) is doing the same thing, giving an additional UHI effect?
Rgrds.
Henry
If chinese sulfates are cooling the planet, should not the planet have been cooling from 1900-1940 when the US was building an enormous amount of coal power plants and dumping huge amounts of sulfates into the atmosphere? The planet was warming at that time and it is blamed on CO2 emissions by the US? What gives? Chinese power plants are cooling the earth and ours before SO2 scrubbing were warming itt?
Also I think Hansen’s scenario A is the proper one to be compared to actual temperatures. Mount Moana Loa shows steadily increasing CO2 content…. business as usual has been occurring.
Chuck Wiese wrote:
“Eric: To someone like you who is not a meteorologist, I can understand why it doesn’t make sense. You make no sense to me. The upshot of the statement is that solar shortwave radiation controls the saturation vapor pressure of the atmosphere by absorptive warming and convective heat transfer. GHG’s do not, in fact, they lower the saturation vapor prressure of air through radiational cooling of the troposphere in exchange for a higher effective emission height of the ground radiation and surface GHG effect. That puts a brake on GHG growth unless the solar short wave is increased. That is basic physics, but apparently too hard for you to understand claiming some sort of climate experise.”
Of course the sun is the supplier of the energy which heats the earth’s surface, and evaporates water from the surface. This does not negate the physics of the greenhouse effect, which says that greenhouse gases absorb some of the upwelling radiation and emit about 1/2 of it in a downward direction back to the earths surface Your account omits this effect.. In fact the lapse rate and the higher emission altitude due to the presence of GHG’s is what keeps the earth’s surface temperature higher. This lowers the rate of energy lost to outer space. This makes nights on earth much warmer than they would otherwise be without GHG’s in the atmosphere. If GHG’s increase in concentration in the atmosphere, slightly less upwelling radiation will be transmitted to outer space. Blocking by GHGs, of radiation which is coming from the sun, is not high enough, to prevent a net increase of heat to the surface. GHG’s are transparent to short wave radiation.
At the same time, the warming of the surface increases evaporation of H2O which is a greenhouse gas, enhancing the warming effect. In fact warmer ocean surfaces will also enhance the emission of CO2 into the atmosphere, which is a positive feedback mechanism, which was responsible for deglaciation which ended past ice ages.
When the surface becomes warm enough to produce enough upwelling radiation so that its rate of escape to outer space, matches the incoming solar radiation, the warming stops. I guess that is what you mean by a “brake”. But really the term “brake” as applied to GHG’s is not a proper description and is misleading. If the GHG’s were absent the earth would be much colder, because at a given temperature, the absence of GHG’s would cause an increase in the rate of escape of long wave radiation to outer space.
The description I provided was a simple one dimensional one, which doesn’t phenomena that are important to weather and climate such as clouds, ocean currents wind, terrain etc.
alcheson says:
May 14, 2012 at 7:04 am
“If chinese sulfates are cooling the planet, should not the planet have been cooling from 1900-1940 when the US was building an enormous amount of coal power plants and dumping huge amounts of sulfates into the atmosphere? ”
You are omitting the fact that the intensity of the sun’s radiation was increasing during that time. Climate is complicated and using one variable to determine what is happening is wrong. In fact we need a huge number of measurements and computers to do the job.
The earth’s population was smaller and consumption was less than it is now. Check out some old hindcasts on this web site.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm
Eric Adler says:
May 11, 2012 at 5:19 pm
I am having trouble understanding why Doughty wrote this blog post….
Eric, I’m sorry you are having trouble understanding. I also apologize for not responding sooner. I have been without internet service since last Thursday evening, and this is the first chance I have had to respond. Hopefully you are still monitoring the comments.
If you don’t understand why I wrote the post, I suggest you re-read the post, as well as Dr. Hansen’s original article. I made an attempt to explain myself at May 10, 2012 at 9:03 pm . My comparison of Dr. Hansen’s predictions to the observational record was simply a humorous device to introduce his original article to a wider audience. I would not ask anyone to draw significant conclusions from my crude attempts to manually compare the predicted temperatures to the subsequent measurements. I was simply trying to make people aware of Dr. Hansen’s original 1999 article and stimulate discussion. Based on the comments, it seems as if I was successful. In particular, regarding Dr. Hansen’s Table 1, spelling out “Key Differences with Skeptics”, I expected the informed reader to use his or her own judgment to determine which items have become more or less resolved with time, if any. You may have noted that Tom Murphy at May 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm did just that. In addition, I thought Dr. Hansen’s expectations for timing of the resolution of the global warming question were significant. According to him, the issue should have been resolved by now. Also, I thought it was worth highlighting the spectacular irony of Dr. Hansen’s attitude toward “skeptics” then as compared to now. Perhaps I was too subtle for you. My mistake – and I apologize. If that doesn’t clear things up for you, I’m afraid it is hopeless.
In regards to your comment at May 11, 2012 at 10:49 am Eric, where you challenge my objectivity, I am very glad that you brought up the issue of cognitive dissonance. It just so happens that about three months ago I responded to a relative’s friend, who questioned why so many who call themselves “climate scientists”, and who are ostensibly well-educated, are convinced that the CAGW dogma is a correct view of the world. The following is a portion of my response:
“The new crop of scientists who got into the field in the late 80’s and early 90’s all had what could be considered to be good motives. They were mostly environmentalists who wanted to do something truly great in their science careers. So they developed a near-messianic mission in their own minds to “save the earth”. What nobler calling could there be? But that presumes that the earth needs to be saved. A better, less biased goal would have been “to better understand the mechanisms of climate”. Unfortunately, they bought into those old, faulty climate theories and have based their life’s work on them. They have published papers pointing out the evils of CO2 and predicting doom unless we reduce our CO2 emissions. Their entire professional lives have been spent railing against CO2. And since they were surrounded by others who also didn’t question the status quo (“CO2 is bad”), they fell prey to groupthink. Is it any wonder that it is difficult, if not impossible, for them to accept that their entire career has been spent chasing a specter that didn’t exist in the first place? Talk about demoralizing. I’m not saying they’re bad people. They truly wanted to do the right thing. It would be difficult for any of us to admit consciously that our entire world view and life’s work was, in fact, worthless and wrong. I truly believe that many of them are incapable of unbiased investigation into the AGW issue, because subconsciously they are really terrified of proving themselves wrong”.
So you see Eric, the cognitive dissonance is on the pro-AGW “climate scientist” side, not the skeptics.
Another point that you might consider regarding the “…statistics that show economic geologists, who work on resource extraction are among the most skpetical of AGW:
http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf
“The two areas of expertise in the survey with the smallest percentage of participants
answering yes to question 2 were economic geology with 47% (48 of 103) and meteorology with 64% (23 of 36)..”
Eric, you proposed that geoscientists and meteorologists held their views regarding AGW largely due to cognitive dissonance, but there are alternative explanations for those statistics. Geoscientists are better aware than the general public that the climate of the earth has always been in flux, and has experienced much greater atmospheric CO2 concentrations in the past, with generally beneficial results. Meteorologists have a deep understanding of the mechanisms of weather and climate, and therefore realize that attributing any significant effect to a trace gas is simply ludicrous. There is simply no hard data (that doesn’t suffer from one or more of the basic logical fallacies) that supports the concept of CO2 climate forcing. And meteorologists are all about the hard data.
As for me personally, if I could fuel my car with magic pixie dust that produced only CO2 emissions, but at a higher rate per mile than my current hydrocarbon-based fuel (even at a slightly elevated price), I would gladly do so – even though my career has been spent searching for and discovering new sources of hydrocarbons. Why? I am a rational environmentalist, and additional CO2 in the atmosphere is much more preferable to the other emissions that result from the burning of fossil fuels (as small as they may be). And expensive catalytic converters would no longer be needed. As a geoscientist, I am more familiar with the geologic record than most people. Compared with most of geologic history, the earth is currently starved for CO2. You must know that when atmospheric CO2 concentration was at many times current levels, the biosphere was much more robust and prolific. The earth was lush with green. Huge coral reefs larger than the Great Barrier Reef and massive limestone beds were formed. Life diversity exploded. It is the ultimate hubris for CAGW proponents to claim that they and they alone know what the optimum concentration of CO2 should be in the atmosphere.
One final item relating to your suggestion that I may be subject to prejudice:
Since college, I have always been a strong supporter of nuclear power, although I would derive no financial benefit from its increased implementation. Nuclear power makes sense to me. Where power generating stations are needed far from traditional natural gas or coal reserves, nuclear power is the best option.
That’s about all I can do for you Eric. Based on the number of your comments, it is apparent that you very much enjoyed reading and discussing this post. I’m glad I could be of service.
F.
Floyd,
You wrote:
“Geoscientists are better aware than the general public that the climate of the earth has always been in flux, and has experienced much greater atmospheric CO2 concentrations in the past, with generally beneficial results. ”
Economic geologists are not the worlds leading expert on the history of the earth.
The gelologists who are most expert on paleontology, American Quaternary Association , and the International Union for Quaternary Research both support the IPCC position on global warming.
The International Union has stated:
http://www.inqua.org/documents/iscc.pdf
“Human activities are now causing atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gasses – including carbon dioxide, methane, tropospheric ozone, and nitrous oxide – to rise well above pre-industrial levels….Increases in greenhouse gasses are causing temperatures to rise…The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. A lack of full scientific certainty about some aspects of climate change is not a reason for delaying an immediate response that will, at a reasonable cost, prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system
….Minimizing the amount of this carbon dioxide reaching the atmosphere presents a huge challenge but must be a global priority… ”
For people who understand the science there is sufficient hard data to justify action to reduce emissions.
Eric Adler said: “This does not negate the physics of the greenhouse effect, which says that greenhouse gases absorb some of the upwelling radiation and emit about 1/2 of it in a downward direction back to the earths surface Your account omits this effect.. In fact the lapse rate and the higher emission altitude due to the presence of GHG’s is what keeps the earth’s surface temperature higher. This lowers the rate of energy lost to outer space. This makes nights on earth much warmer than they would otherwise be without GHG’s in the atmosphere. If GHG’s increase in concentration in the atmosphere, slightly less upwelling radiation will be transmitted to outer space. Blocking by GHGs, of radiation which is coming from the sun, is not high enough, to prevent a net increase of heat to the surface. GHG’s are transparent to short wave radiation.
At the same time, the warming of the surface increases evaporation of H2O which is a greenhouse gas, enhancing the warming effect. In fact warmer ocean surfaces will also enhance the emission of CO2 into the atmosphere, which is a positive feedback mechanism, which was responsible for deglaciation which ended past ice ages.
Eric: You’re wrong…..again. My account does not omit the GHG effect. I described it quite well but you don’t understand basic radiation and are just repeating the seltzered out bromides of Lacis and Hansen. The GHG effect is not due to the downward flux ( 1/2 sphere ) of radiation that is absorbed by the GHG’s alone. It is defined as the the difference between the surface directed upward flux from the ground and the outgoing longwave radiation that reaches space.
It is G = Sg-OLR, where G is the greenhouse factor. The upwelling radiation at TOA is not the other half of the direction of propagation of the flux or upward flux. That radiation, Su, is dependent on the respective optical depth of each absorbing constituent, which is a function of the respective density, ( concentration ) path length, and absorption coefficient as per the Beer/Lambert equation. The equation of radiative transfer is the determinant of what radaition actually gets out to space after it enters the gas phase from absorption and is a function of emission as detailed by tropospheric temperature profiles and it is not 1/2, it is far greater,
Your story goes astray and becomes poppycock the minute you assume adding more CO2 causes additional surface evaporation of water that leads to amplification of water vapor and additional greenhouse effect from this. There is no proof of this and the records indicate the founding work was correct, not the Lacis/Hansen baloney. Absorption of IR by CO2 in the presence of a hydrological cycle is not a forcing on temperature and proves nothing. The 61 year NOAA record shows the mean precipitable water vapor in the troposphere decreased by .649%.
Like I said, GHG’s cool the troposphere, and that is a fact for both CO2 and water vapor. Adding more CO2 causes a lowering of the effective emission height of water vapor due to increased cooling and a lower saturation vapor pressure. You can expect that the emission height of water vapor will counter CO2 by either lowering or creating more cloud cover from an enhancement of the hydro cycle and it would take very little change to wipe out the effects of CO2 in terms of any rising temperatures because of this fact. The founding work demonstrated that water vapor alone absorbs and emits enough IR BY ITSELF to trigger moist convection to 10 Km, which means its thermodynamic properties caused it to self mitigate by radiational cooling of the troposphere and starting a hydrological cycle.
Water vapor and the hydro cycle regulate the earth’s greenhouse factor, not CO2. That assumption is crap. It was from the day Hansen and Lacis assumed it to be so without studying or providing any refutations to this important founding work.
You also continue not to answer any of my questions above in this thread, including the calculation I offered you on carbon reduction and the fact that this proportionality constant of mass to ppmv shows quite well that any global or local reduction efforts are fraudulent and will accomplish nothing except to make the special interest sloths very wealthy and give the government more of everyone’s hard earned money to waste.
You have no credibility from my point of view from your failure to answer any of these questions using anything of scientific value or failing to be able to explain the falling temperatures and stasis.
@ur momisugly Henry P: Nice work up on the global temperatures. I’m not familiar with all of the settings of Las Vegas, but if there was increased vegitation planted around the area, that could definately add to a night UHI effect from a higher water vapor concentration in the area which would reduce outgoing IR compared to desert ground. But in the day, that works to an opposite effect with higher temperatures. Bottom line is that GHG gases elevate the mean temperatures but reduce extremes in both direction.
Chuck Wiese says:
@ur momisugly Henry P: Nice work up on the global temperatures
Nice work there from you too, @ur momisuglyEric Adler,
unfortunately there are none so blind as those who do not want to see…
I am hoping that people will now start looking at the right variable….before it is too late….
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/12/tisdale-an-unsent-memo-to-james-hansen/#comment-985677
Regards,
Henry
Chuck Wiese says:
May 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm
“Eric Adler said: “So explain why night time temperature is influenced more by the UHI than daytime temperature? Doesn’t evaporation occur during the daytime and condensation at night? Doesn’t condensation release heat? Your argument doesn’t make any sense.”
Eric: This again proves you don’t understand basic meteorology or physics. The night UHI effect is not caused by condensation. It is caused by radiational cooling from the ground that causes a temperature inversion and reduced vertical mixing up a dry adiabat to warmer air above relative to its hydrostatic height. That is especially true in the winter and cooler weather months. That decreased mixing allows for a discernable difference in temperature in urban vs. rural areas because the building heat energies do not get large enough to break a nightime inversion and some day inversions to convect away the small amount of heat energy that accumulates into the surrounding air and raises the temperature compared to rural settings with less heat emitting structures. The less convection, the lesser amount of Joules of energy transfer to raise the local ambient air temperature.”
I am having difficulty parsing the run-on sentence which makes up the main part of your explanation. I don’t see how radiational cooling can cause the temperature near the ground to be warmer in urban areas versus rural areas. Also what is the antecedent to “its” in the phrase “reduced vertical mixing up a dry adiabat to warmer air above relative to its hydrostatic height.”? Being a meteorologist doesn’t excuse the use of overly complex sentences which are hard to prase.
I didn’t claim that nighttime UHI effects had anything to do with condensation. You were the one who mentioned condensation as part of your explanation, and I was disputing that. Lack of Evapo-transpiration would account primarily for daytime warming, versus rural areas with more plant life and more cooling during the day by transpiration.
According to what I have read, the UHI is mainly a result of urban environments absorbing more heat during the day, due to materials used, and the tall buildings reducing the rate of upwards directed radiation which cools the earth’s surface at night. The reduction in wind velocity leading to reduced convection is believed also a factor but somewhat less important than the others I mentioned.
Chuck Wiese says:
May 14, 2012 at 7:29 pm
“The GHG effect is not due to the downward flux ( 1/2 sphere ) of radiation that is absorbed by the GHG’s alone. It is defined as the the difference between the surface directed upward flux from the ground and the outgoing longwave radiation that reaches space.
It is G = Sg-OLR, where G is the greenhouse factor. The upwelling radiation at TOA is not the other half of the direction of propagation of the flux or upward flux. That radiation, Su, is dependent on the respective optical depth of each absorbing constituent, which is a function of the respective density, ( concentration ) path length, and absorption coefficient as per the Beer/Lambert equation. The equation of radiative transfer is the determinant of what radaition actually gets out to space after it enters the gas phase from absorption and is a function of emission as detailed by tropospheric temperature profiles and it is not 1/2, it is far greater, ”
There is no contradiction between my statement about the mechanism that is responsible for the greenhouse effect, and your definition. Some upwelling radiation is outside the absorption spectrum of the gases in the atmosphere and goes directly from the surface of the earth into space. I never claimed that 1/2 of the upwelling radiation exits.
“Your story goes astray and becomes poppycock the minute you assume adding more CO2 causes additional surface evaporation of water that leads to amplification of water vapor and additional greenhouse effect from this. ”
Nobody I know of claims that CO2 by itself causes more evaporation. It is the temperature increase due to CO2 that causes more evaporation, ending up with more water vapor in the environment.
“There is no proof of this and the records indicate the founding work was correct, not the Lacis/Hansen baloney. Absorption of IR by CO2 in the presence of a hydrological cycle is not a forcing on temperature and proves nothing. The 61 year NOAA record shows the mean precipitable water vapor in the troposphere decreased by .649%.”
The NOAA record is based on weather balloon measurements, which are screwed up. This has been understood quite well since 1991.
http://www.arl.noaa.gov/documents/JournalPDFs/Elliott&Gaffen.BAMS1991.pdf
More recent satellite measurements show water vapor content in the atmosphere increasing with increasing surface temperature according to what would be predicted from the Clasius Clapeyron relationship for saturation water vapor content of air, versus temperature. Since evaporation is a rapid process, this feedback process can be established by short term measurements.
Your claim that CO2 does not reduce outgoing radiation is a ridiculous. This has been understood and accepted since 1859. Hansen and Lacis did not invent this idea.
“Like I said, GHG’s cool the troposphere, and that is a fact for both CO2 and water vapor. Adding more CO2 causes a lowering of the effective emission height of water vapor due to increased cooling and a lower saturation vapor pressure.”
The emission height is not relevant. It is the emission temperature of the radiation that determines how much radiation escapes. What happens is that as the CO2 concentration increases less radiation in the absorption bandwidth reaches the top level of the troposphere, which becomes cooler. This lowers the effective emission temperature in the band. This is also true for water vapor. This has been observed by satellite measurements of the outgoing radiation:
.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6826/abs/410355a0.html
It is very easy to write a sentence which is totally BS. It takes more work to prove it is wrong. I don’t have the time to counter every single piece of nonsense that you write.
REPLY: I call BS on your last sentence Mr. Adler. You spend countless hours here haranguing people. In fact doing a search of comemnts for your common handle “eadler” yields 1337 items. So, clearly you have time. But I’ll help you out and give you the time you need. Take a 48 hour time out – Anthony
Eric Adler (or is it Addle-r) says:
May 14, 2012 at 5:14 pm
“The gelologists who are most expert on paleontology, American Quaternary Association , and the International Union for Quaternary Research both support the IPCC position on global warming”.
Haven’t the Ad Verecundiam and Ad Populum logical fallacies suffered enough abuse from those of your kind, Mr. Steig?
[Moderator’s Note: Good try, but he really is Eric Adler and making fun of people’s names is not really good form. -REP]
Floyd Doughty says:
May 16, 2012 at 8:32 am
“Eric Adler (or is it Addle-r) says:
May 14, 2012 at 5:14 pm
“The gelologists who are most expert on paleontology, American Quaternary Association , and the International Union for Quaternary Research both support the IPCC position on global warming”.
Haven’t the Ad Verecundiam and Ad Populum logical fallacies suffered enough abuse from those of your kind, Mr. Steig?”
You claimed that economic geologist’s knowledge of the history of the earth’s climate explains their opposition to the theory of AGW. I claim that the official position of the Quaternary Science community, who know the most about AGW disproves your hypothesis that economic geologists’ position is based on superior knowledge. I consider that a fair argument. If we are talking about the opinion of a majority of experts, this is not considered to be an Ad Populum logical fallacy. The term comes from the idea that the opinion of an uneducated populace cannot be relied on.
Economic geologists are unique among earth scientists in the proportion who disagree with AGW, according to the Doran Poll.
I don’t object to being mistaken for Eric Steig. Since I am not a climate scientist by profession, it seems to me a tribute to my erudition as an amateur, although I certainly don’t have the expertise that he has.
Floyd Doughty says: @ur momisugly May 14, 2012 at 12:36 pm …..
_________________________
Thank you for the clarification.
I agree with you about demonizing a vital plant nutrient (CO2) that was getting to be in critically short supply according to Mauna Loa data. It is not only idiotic but potentially suicidal over the long term to limit or sequester CO2. I also agree that nuclear esp. thorium should be exploited to the fullest as an energy source.
What many people do not seem to realize is the increase in inventions and creativity is directly proportional to the amount of energy available to a civilization. If your total focus is putting enough food on the table it is really hard to thing about coming up with new inventions.
Henry@Eric Adler
I must tell you, again, that
a) there is no global warming, eehhh, at least not from 1994
http://www.letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
(as investigated independently by myself)
b) others have confirmed that global warming is over,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/12/tisdale-an-unsent-memo-to-james-hansen/#comment-985514
i.e. the extent of the warming/cooling does not fall within the errors of current measurement
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/12/tisdale-an-unsent-memo-to-james-hansen/#comment-985677
c) earth’s capacity to store energy, in oceans, in vegetation, in weather systems/hydrological cycles,etc. is able to hide the fact that earth has started cooling down – as my results also show, but eventually that spare energy will run out……
d) I’m hoping that Orssengo is wrong and that global cooling will stop before 2030
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/orssengo3.png
e) From all of this, I predict that before this year has ended people will seriously begin to wonder whether global cooling is here (remember my name!)
http://www.letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
Blessings.
Henry
Henry says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/12/tisdale-an-unsent-memo-to-james-hansen/#comment-987003
Eric Adler said: “The NOAA record is based on weather balloon measurements, which are screwed up. This has been understood quite well since 1991.
http://www.arl.noaa.gov/documents/JournalPDFs/Elliott&Gaffen.BAMS1991.pdf”
OK. There has been some criticism about this like there is anytime that warmers get confronted with data they don’t like. So here is a merging of satellite water vapor data:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0154323443c4970c-pi
It is obvious that water vapor absolute humidity is not growing. If anything it is decreasing. That is not consistent with modeling projections. It is way off because the models assume constant realative humidity with rising temperatures, which means they are way off the mark with absolute humidity as the projected warming of the last decade hasfailed as I have already pointed out.
Eric Adler said : “The emission height is not relevant. It is the emission temperature of the radiation that determines how much radiation escapes. What happens is that as the CO2 concentration increases less radiation in the absorption bandwidth reaches the top level of the troposphere, which becomes cooler. This lowers the effective emission temperature in the band. This is also true for water vapor. This has been observed by satellite measurements of the outgoing radiation”
Another statement that proves you don’t understand basic meteorology. The emission heioght is absolutely relevant! It is a function of temperature in a non homogeneous, hydrostatic atmosphere like the earth’s and is directly proportional to the emission temperature and related through the relationship dp/dz = – pg/RT. Let’s see. I think I see a T for temperature and a z for pressure altitude here. z = TaveR[ln(p/Po)] Solved in this manner, z is the geopotential thickness of two pressure surfaces and expans and contracts as a function of the maen TEMPERATURE.
Eric Adler said: “Your claim that CO2 does not reduce outgoing radiation is a ridiculous. This has been understood and accepted since 1859. Hansen and Lacis did not invent this idea.”
In the presence of GHG gas like water vapor that changes phase, this has not been proven. The only thing people like you do is look at the theoretical absorption and call it a forcing on temperature. That is absolutely false if you can’t prove that water vapor is amplified atmospherically by CO2 and you haven’t proven this. The opposite seems to be the case as one would expect from the founding principles. Again, look at the real data.
Eric Adler said: “It is very easy to write a sentence which is totally BS. It takes more work to prove it is wrong. I don’t have the time to counter every single piece of nonsense that you write.”
Eric: It is also easy to change the subject and ignore relevant questions that you refuse or cannot answer. You still have not satisfactorily explained the declining temperatures and stasis and you haven’t addressed the fact that any CO2 reduction strategies will fail to stop atmospheric CO2 growth, which means according to you and Hansen, we are all going to suffer not because of what we have done with carbon emissions, but that the earth is adding CO2 and not absorbing enough to stop growth, so the earth is what is going to kill us all off, not ourselves. Care to explain this? I’ve asked you three times already and you keep bobbing and ducking the questions. Answer them. Please!
Correction to the equation above. Forgot the gravity term: z = TaveR[Ln(p/Po)] / g