The Mystery of Equation 8

I’ve been looking at the Nikolov and Zeller paper again. Among other things, they claim to be able to calculate the surface temperature Ts of eight different planets and moons from knowing nothing more than the solar irradiation So and the surface pressure Ps for each heavenly body. Dr. Zeller refers to this as their MIRACLE equation. He says:

Why aren’t you all trying to disprove our MIRACLE equation rather than banging your heads against walls trying to prove or disprove who knows what and exclaiming you have problems with this or that? The question is how can we possibly have done it – there is no question that our equations work – if you haven’t verified that it works, why haven’t you? […] Why aren’t you thinking: “hmmmm, N&Z have given us an equation that lo-and-behold when we plug in the measured pressures and calculate Tgb as they suggest, gives us a calculated Ts that also matches measured values! You can’t disprove the equation? So maybe we are cooking the data books somehow, but how?

This is supposed to be evidence that their theory is correct, and people keep telling me ‘but they’ve got real evidence, they can make predictions of planetary temperatures, check it out”. Plus it’s hard to ignore an invitation like Dr. Zellers, so I checked it out.

Figure 1. These are not the equations you are looking for.

They first postulate something called the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” or “ATE” effect that makes the earth warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.

The “ATE effect” is measured by something called Nte(Ps), which is defined and estimated in their paper as follows.

where Nte(Ps) is a measure of the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” effect.

Nte(Ps) is defined as the actual average surface air temperature of the planet Ts divided by the theoretical “graybody” temperature of the planet Tgb calculated from the total solar insolation So of the planet. Nte(Ps) is estimated using a fitted function of the surface pressure of the planet Ps.

Let me simplify things a bit. Symbolically, the right part of equation (7) can be written as

Nte(Ps) = e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4)       (7Sym)

where “e” is the base of natural logs and Ps is the surface pressure on the planet or moon. There are four tunable parameters (t1 through t4) that are “fitted” or tuned to the data. In other words, those values are repeatedly adjusted and tuned until the desired fit is obtained. This fitting can be easily done in Excel using the “Solve…” menu item. As you’d expect with four parameters and only eight datapoints, the fit is quite good, and their estimate is quite close to the actual value of Nte(Ps).

Amusingly, the result of equation (7) is then used in another fitted (tuned) equation, number (8). This is:

where So is total solar irradiation.

This is their piece de resistance, their MIRACLE equation, wherein they are saying the surface temperature of eight different planets and moons can be calculated from just two variables— Pr, the surface pressure, and So, the total Solar irradiation. This is what amazes the folks in the crowd so much that they write and tell me there is “evidence” that N&Z are right.

Obviously, there is another tuned parameter in equation (8), so we can rewrite this one symbolically as:

Ts = t5 * (Solar + adjustment ) ^ 1/4 * Nte(Ps).        (8Sym)

Let me pause a minute and point something out about equation (8). The total solar irradiation Solar ranges from over 9,000 W/m2 for Mercury down to 1.51 W/m2 for Triton. Look at equation 8. How will adding the adjustment = 0.0001325 to any of those values before taking the fourth root make the slightest bit of difference in the result? That’s just bizarre, that is. They say they put it in so that the formula will be accurate when there is no solar, so it will give the background radiation of 3 Kelvins. Who cares? Truly, it changes Ts by a maximum of a thousandth of a degree for Triton. So for the moment let me remove it, as it makes no practical difference and it’s just confusing things.

Back to the tale. Removing the adjustment and substituting equation 7 into equation 8 we get:

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4) (eqn 9)

This is amazing. These guys are seriously claiming that with only eight datapoints and no less than five tunable parameters , they can calculate the surface temperature of the eight planets knowing only their surface pressure and solar irradiation. And with that many knobs to turn, I am sure they can do that. I did it on my own spreadsheet using their figures. I get about the same values for t1 through t5. But that proves nothing at all.

I mean … I can only stand in awe at the sheer effrontery of that claim. They are using only eight datapoints and five tunable parameters with a specially-designed ad-hoc equation with no physical basis. And they don’t think that’s odd in the slightest.

I will return to this question of the number of parameters in a bit, because even though it’s gobsmacking what they’ve done there, it’s not the best part of the story. Here’s the sting in the tale. We can also substitute equation (7)  into equation (8) in a slightly different way, using the middle term in equation 7. This yields:

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb  (eqn 10)

This means that if we start out by knowing the surface temperature Ts on the right side of the equation, we can then calculate Ts on the left side … shocking, I know, who would have guessed. Let’s check the rest of the math in equation (10) to see why that works out.

Upon inspection it can be seen that the first part of the right side of equation (10),

t5 * Solar^0.25

is an alternate form of the familiar Stefan-Boltzmann equation relating temperature and radiation. The S-B equation can be written as

T = (Solar / c1) ^ 0.25.

where T is temperature and c1 is a constant equal to the S-B constant times the emissivity. We can rewrite this as

T = 1/(c1^0.25) * Solar^0.25

Setting another constant c2 equal to 1 / (c1^0.25) gives me the Stefan-Boltzmann equation as:

T = c2 * Solar^0.25

But this is exactly the form of the first part of the right side of equation 10. More to the point, it is an approximation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb.

We can check this by observing that if emissivity is .9 then constant c1 is 5.103E-8, and c2 is therefore about 66. However, that value will be reduced by the rotation of the planet. Per the N&Z formula in their latest post, that gives a value of about 27.

Their fitted value is 25, not far from the actual value. So curiously, what it turns out they’ve done is to estimate the Stefan-Boltzmann constant by a bizarre curve fitting method. And they did a decent job of that. Actually, pretty impressive considering the number of steps and parameters involved.

But since  t5  * Solar^0.25  is an estimation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb, that means that Equation 10 reduces from

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb (eqn 10)

to

Ts = Tgb * Ts / Tgb.

and finally to

Ts = Ts

TA-DA!

CONCLUSION

Let me recap the underlying effect of what they have done. They are looking at eight planets and moons.

1. They have used an equation

e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4)

with four free parameters to yield an estimate of Ts/Tgb based on surface pressure. As one would expect given the fact that there are half as many free parameters as there are data points, and that they are given free choice to pick any form for their equation without limit, this presents no problem at all, and can be done with virtually any dataset.

2. They have used an equation

t5 * Solar^0.25

with one free parameter in order to put together an estimate of Tgb based on total planetary insolation. Since Tgb does depend inter alia on planetary insolation, again this presents no problem.

3. They have multiplied the two estimates together. Since the result is an estimate of Tgb times an estimate of Ts/Tgb, of course this has the effect of cancelling out Tgb.

4. They note that what remains is Ts, and they declare a MIRACLE.

Look, guys … predicting Ts when you start out with Ts? Not all that hard, and with five free parameters and a choice of any equation no matter how non-physically based, that is no MIRACLE of any kind, just another case of rampant curve fitting …

Finally, there is a famous story in science about this kind of pseudo-scientific use of parameters and equations, told by Freeman Dyson:

We began by calculating meson–proton scattering, using a theory of the strong forces known as pseudoscalar meson theory. By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering. We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.

When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice. “There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.

I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a selfconsistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us. With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”

In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?”

I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.”

He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.” With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.

The Nikolov and Zeller equation contains five parameters and only eight data points. I rest my case that it is not a MIRACLE that they can make the elephant wiggle his trunk, but an expected and trivial result of their faulty procedures.

My regards to everyone,

w.

PS—There is, of course, a technical term for what they have done, as there are no new mistakes under the sun. It is called “overfitting”. As Wikipedia says, “Overfitting generally occurs when a model is excessively complex, such as having  too many parameters relative to the number of observations.” Five parameters is far, far too many relative to eight observations, that is a guaranteed overfit.

PPS—One problem with N&Z’s MIRACLE equation is that they have not statistically tested it in any way.

One way to see if their fit is even remotely valid is to leave out some of the datapoints and fit it again. Of course with only eight datapoints to start with, this is problematic … but in any case if the fitted parameters come out radically different when you do that, this casts a lot of doubt on your fit. I encourage N&Z to do this and report back on their results. I’d do it, but they don’t believe me, so what’s the point?

Aother way to check their fit is to divide the dataset in half, do the fit on one half, and then check the results on the other half. This is because fitted equations like they are using are known to perform very poorly “out of sample”, that is to say on data not used to  fit the parameters. Given only eight data points and four parameters for equation 7, of course this is again problematic, since if you divide the set in half you end up with as many parameters as data points … you’d think that might be a clue that the procedure is sketchy but what do I know, I was born yesterday. In any case I encourage N&Z to perform that test as well. My results from that test say that their fit is meaningless, but perhaps their test results will be different.

[UPDATE] One of the commenters below said:

Willis – go ahead – fit an elephant. Please!

Seriously N&Z are only demonstrating in algebra what has been observed in experiments, that heating a gas in a sealed container increases both pressure and temperature.

OK, here’s my shot at emulating the surface temperature using nothing but the data in the N&Z chart of planetary body properties:

Figure 1. Willis’s emulation of the surface temperature of the planetary bodies.

My equation contains one more variable and two less parameters than the N&Z equation. Remember their equation was:

Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)

My equation, on the other hand, is:

Ts = 0.8 * Tgb + 6.9 * Density + 0.2 * Gravity)

Note that I am absolutely not making any claim that temperature is determined by density and gravity. I am merely showing that fitting a few points with a few variables and a few parameters is not all that difficult. It also shows that one can get the answer without using surface pressure at all. Finally, it shows that neither my emulation nor N&Z’s emulation of the planetary temperatures are worth a bucket of warm spit …

[UPDATE 2] I figured that since I was doing miracles with the N&Z miracle equation, I shouldn’t stop there. I should see if I could beat them at their own game, and make a simpler miracle. Once again, their equation:

Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)

My simplified version of their equation looks like this:

Ts = 25.394 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.092 * Pressure ^ 0.17)

Curiously, my simplified version actually has a slightly lower RMS error than the N&Z version, so I did indeed beat them at their own game. My equation is not only simpler, it is more accurate. They’re free to use my simplified miracle equation, no royalties necessary. Here are the fits:

Figure 2. A simpler version of the N&Z equation 8

Again, I make no claim that this improves things. The mere fact that I can do it with two less tuned parameters (three instead of five) than N&Z used does not suddenly mean that it is not overfitted.

Both the simplified and the complex version of the N&Z equations are nothing but curve fitting. This is proven by the fact that we already have three simple and very different equations that hindcast the planetary temperatures. That’s the beauty of a fitted equation, if you are clever you can fit a lot using only a little … but THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT PRESSURE DETERMINES TEMPERATURE.

For example, I can do the same thing without using pressure at all, but using density instead. Here’s that equation:

Ts = 25.491 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.603 * Density ^ 0.201)

And here’s the results:

Figure 3. An emulation of the planetary temperatures, using density instead of pressure.

Does this now mean that the planetary temperature is really controlled by density? Of course not, this whole thing is an exercise in curve fitting.

w.

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Bomber_the_Cat
January 24, 2012 11:22 am

Lucy Skywalker says:
January 24, 2012 at 3:38 am
“I get the feeling that there are a number who can see Willis’ limitations who are no longer coming here to post.”
Yes, their goose has been well and truly cooked by Willis’s article, their fox has been shot. Anyone with a basic knowledge of science, or in this case,just basic mathematics, is aware that when the number of ‘fudge factors’ exceeds the number of unknowns then any ridiculous proposition can be formalised. It isn’t really a ‘Miracle’. Well done Willis – that’s what I call a game-changer.
Lucy, have you ever thought that you and Tallbloke do harm to the sceptic cause by promoting nonsense?
Apart from that you made a good post Lucy, I see that you write well – maybe you should seek a career down that path. Have you ever tried fiction or fairy stories?
Oh – just looked at your website! Good luck.

January 24, 2012 11:38 am

Robert Brown says:
January 24, 2012 at 9:17 am
And note from my argument (and a bit of actual arithmetic, sigh), one of the two forms fit is “one” for all but two points. So really what they have done is joined two fits — an exponential that is 1 for mars and pressures below but a two-parameter fit of Earth and Venus that is as “miraculously” good as you like — I think I could make it 100% accurate with algebra and a hand calculator, but that’s just me, trying to fit an arbitrary two parameter monotonic function that can be made to cut off arbitrarily sharply for pressures below a cutoff with two data points, or I could let a routine split the 2% maximum error up among Mars, Venus and Earth.
The three moons — all with very similar insolation and atmospheric pressures — and Mars are then fit with the two remaining parameters (the ones where 54 Kbar is the characteristic pressure). And look at the exponent! 0.065! It can transform even a tiny number into a big one! Talk about sensitivity…

Agreed, the obvious reason for the pressure dependence of Earth and Venus is the pressure dependence of their atmospheric absorption/emission due to pressure broadening of the absorber/emitter spectral lines, far from falsifying the Greenhouse theory this result is what would be expected. The GHE is amplified by pressure (no surprise to anyone who understands the physics)!

January 24, 2012 12:02 pm

Willis Eschenbach writes:
neither my emulation nor N&Z’s emulation of the planetary temperatures are worth a bucket of warm spit…
I agree with you regarding the quality and value of your input.

January 24, 2012 12:38 pm

kdk33 said January 24, 2012 at 10:02 am

The lapse rate doesn’t apply to the ocean because water is incompressible.

What utter tosh! Water at the bottom of the ocean is denser than water at the surface at the same temperature. From the Wikibloodypedia:

The compressibility of water is a function of pressure and temperature. At 0 °C, at the limit of zero pressure, the compressibility is 5.1×10−10 Pa−1. At the zero-pressure limit, the compressibility reaches a minimum of 4.4×10−10 Pa−1 around 45 °C before increasing again with increasing temperature. As the pressure is increased, the compressibility decreases, being 3.9×10−10 Pa−1 at 0 °C and 100 MPa.

JPeden
January 24, 2012 12:40 pm

Alan Millar says:
January 24, 2012 at 7:53 am
William M. Connolley says:
January 24, 2012 at 7:08 am
“AM> So what is the difference between the the two sets of models?
Part of it is: if you take the GCMs code, and the correct initial conditions, they will predict tomorrow’s weather, or next week’s weather, for you”
So I could run GISS model E initialised with todays conditions and get next weeks weather could I William?

No! But you can “Forecast the…er…Facts”. Naturally, being a Great Sophist*, William doesn’t say whether the “Facts” will turn out to be empirically correct or not. And why bother, when prediction success is not his goal to begin with?
*Note to William, there aren’t any…

Mike M
January 24, 2012 12:43 pm

It seems so painfully familiar it got me wondering if either Nikolov or Zeller ever wrote a textbook for fluid mechanics?

Legatus
January 24, 2012 1:06 pm

“smug nitpickery”

Nitpickery, whether (considered) smug or not, is what is called “The Scientific Method”. You present your idea, all the methods and data you used to verify that idea, to the public, and they then try and “pick” it apart (try it themselves, see if it works). This is known as “falsification”, if it succeeds, your idea is partially or completely wrong and you go back to the drawing board. Pride often causes people to not acknowledge that it is time to start over. Pride is the enemy of science, too much pride and we would still be using stone tools (if that).

Not their science, but their style

The actual main reason Galileo was put on trial for “heresy” was because of his style. He constantly insulted his detractors, and so they wanted to hurt him. This is also shown by recent scholarship that shows that the church itself was actually on Galileo’s side. The entire scientific method was invented to get around the problems of people choosing style over substance. Before the method was used, it was all style, you decided what the natural world was like based on who had a better styled argument on which Old Dead Greek Guy was right and which was wrong. I, for one, would rather have “nitpickery”, whether smug or not, with substance, instead of lack of or incorrect substance no matter the style. If you prefer style over substance, you will be taken in by con artists a lot, you can even take yourself in this way. You will note that in the end, everyone has come to believe Galileo despite the fact that he had terrible style (his nitpickery was very smug).
Just as an aside, what Napoleon then followed his preferred generals statement with was “Good generals make their own luck”. Setting things up so that you are more likely to get a lucky break (walking down seventh street when you suspect you might get into a fight on third street), being able to spot that break, knowing what to do to take advantage of it (perhaps already having set things up so that you can do so), and doing so fast before it gets away, are what he is talking about. The set of people who have had luck presented to them is greater than the set of people who have taken advantage of it (and possibly arraigned things so that it could happen) and been called “lucky”.

Joel Shore
January 24, 2012 1:31 pm

Regarding the difference between the parameters in climate models and the parameters in a simple empirical model:
There is a big difference. A simple empirical model is designed to fit one particular piece of data and as such the empirical form is designed to do this. Climate models are designed totally differently: They are designed to emulate the atmosphere mechanistically. Their parameters are of an entirely different sort.
While von Neumann statement about free parameters is true for properly-chosen free parameters, it is also true that I could give you a function with 1 million free parameters that nonetheless could still not fit some very simple data.
And, the proof is in the pudding: Despite the fact that you have close to 20 climate models out there, none of them have been able to successfully fit the historical global temperature record without anthropogenic forcings. Even if you believe in a mass conspiracy theory that has prevented any groups from trying to do this or reporting a successful result of doing this, you have models in the public domain that any “AGW skeptic” could use to disprove my statement.
Now, there is one point worth noting: Since the forcing due to anthropogenic aerosols is a big unknown, it is true that models that include anthropogenic forcings that have different climate sensitivities can do equally well in reproducing the global temperature record by having different aerosol forcings. This is the reason why, in practice, the historical global temperature record does not constrain the value of the climate sensitivity that well.
So, despite the fact that the climate models tell us that the global temperature record can’t be reproduced without anthropogenic forcings, this record does not do that much to constrain what the climate sensitivity of the models has to be in order to get a good fit. Climate sensitivity is better constrained by other empirical data and most significantly by a combination of all empirical data available. Such data includes paleoclimate data (especially the Last Glacial Maximum)), data from major volcanic eruptions like Mt Pinatubo, and data on the present-day seasonal cycle.

January 24, 2012 1:42 pm

[SNIP: Dr. Nikolov: I’d like to believe that you would have second thoughts about this. Could I ask you to, uhhh, rephrase this? -REP]

Jan Kjetil Andersen
January 24, 2012 2:00 pm

I admire your patience Willis. Good work.
I suspected something was very wrong when they claimed that the mean temperature of a planet is not affected by the uniformness of the temperature. That is simply not consitent with the non-linearity of the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Joel Shore
January 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Willis: Strange then that neither you nor any other skeptics have ever taken me up on my challenge to “retune” the models and show how you can fit the historical global temperature record without the anthropogenic forcings! At some point, the people who claim this is possible have to demonstrate it, no?
That is why I went through the trouble of demonstrating a specific case with N&Z whereby I did change the data (by artificially lowering the surface temperature data for the 3 celestial bodies that had a significant radiative greenhouse effect back down to the conventially-calculated blackbody emission temperature) and then I retuned their model and showed how it still fit this changed data! If you did the same thing with a climate model, you might have a convincing case. In the absence of doing so, not so much!

Burch
January 24, 2012 2:16 pm
William M. Connolley
January 24, 2012 2:44 pm

> 1. You take a model which has been carefully tuned to replicate the past using inputs a, b, c, d, and e.
No, that isn’t how GCMs are built. It is funny, that as soon as you stray away from the stuff you know about, you go hopelessly wrong.

January 24, 2012 2:50 pm

Legatus said January 24, 2012 at 1:06 pm
[several things I must agree with]
but…

You will note that in the end, everyone has come to believe Galileo despite the fact that he had terrible style (his nitpickery was very smug).

We believe Galileo where he was correct. Unfortunately, Galileo was a man of great style and relished being the life and soul of the party in an era without television. He promoted, in his subsequently banned book “Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems”, the idea that tides were caused by the rotation of the Earth contra Galilean Relativity, and insulted the Pope in the same book. It’s worth noting that Galileo wrote inside his own copy of the book that he knew his tides argument was utter balderdash (paraphrasing here).
Immediately before this, Galileo was also embroiled in a vicious dispute with the Jesuit astronomer Fr de Grassi. de Grassi had demonstrated that comets occupied space between the Earth and sun; Galileo insisted they were an atmospheric phenomenon. Galileo had engineered his own downfall by alienating his friends such as the Jesuits and the Pope, and playing into the hands of his enemies The Pigeon League. [/nitpick]

scf
January 24, 2012 3:45 pm

“By using two functions of the pressure, what they have done is to provide what is essentially two equations spliced together, one of which covers the Earth and Venus, and the other of which covers the rest of the planets.”
This makes me less impressed with their curve-fitting abilities. It’s the trivial way to get to what they want:
1. create a curve that maps one subset and is 0 elsewhere
2. create a curve that maps the other subset and is 0 elsewhere
3. Add the two curves. We have a curve that maps everything!
Of course, they’ve used the exponential version of this recipe:
1. create an exponential curve that maps one subset and is 1 elsewhere
2. create an exponential curve that maps the other subset and is 1 elsewhere
3. Multiply the exponentials. We have a curve that maps everything!
Terry Oldberg had some good points about the statistics involved. When fitting curves, It is necessary that one use up any and all available datapoints, so that nobody can take your curve and map it to an observed event that you’ve missed.
I can’t wait until scientists manage to measure the irradiation, surface temperature and surface pressure of another planet. Then we’ll be able to see how equation 8 stacks up. Personally, I’m not confident that it will stand strong.

January 24, 2012 5:08 pm

Joel Shore,
How well do the models do when the aerosol OR solar forcing is taken out??
Oh yeah, they are tuned to have all those forcings!! Snicker.

Tilo Reber
January 24, 2012 6:01 pm

Joel Shore: “Strange then that neither you nor any other skeptics have ever taken me up on my challenge to “retune” the models and show how you can fit the historical global temperature record without the anthropogenic forcings!”
You have a climate model that can fit the historical data for more than a few hundred years? Got a charted sample of that somewhere?

January 24, 2012 6:01 pm

WIllis, it does not surprise me that a “cowboy” like you was one of the first to spot bullshit when you saw it. Great work on this Topic thread, I no longer give any scientific credence to the work of N&Z. THANKS!
– Ira

jorgekafkazar
January 24, 2012 6:33 pm

John Marshall says: “…Jupiter, with its atmosphere of hydrogen and helium, radiates more heat than it receives. since there are no GHG’s in the Jovian atmosphere there must be another mechanism to create that extra heat and that must be gravity.”
No, there’s plenty of methane in Jupiter’s atmosphere, so wrong on that count. The extra heat may be from Uranium or other radioactive elements in the core, so your last “must” is wrong, too. Some say there may be some fusion, too, but we lack evidence of that.

jae
January 24, 2012 6:38 pm

Uh, Willis:
Perhaps the BEST empirical evidence for the NZ ideas is presented by Huffman, concerning his treatise on the origin of the temps on Venus. Whose treatise you evidently have completely discarded, IIRC, by stating that it “gives you a headache!” Oh, yah, W., that’s a very scientific reason to ignore him, indeed! (Could the “headache” be caused by the Confirmation Bias Syndrome?)
You (as well as all the other self-proclaimed “experts” here, BTW, including, especially, the expert-sounding Brown, Joel, et. al.) seem to carefully ignore Huffman’s proofs. But in all fairness and honesty, maybe it’s time that you tried to discredit his empirical data for Venus, also? If you do that, then I think you will have also proved NZ wrong, and I will admit I’m also wrong. But not before, I’m thinking…
And beyond all this physics, which I admit is over my head, we have no evidence AT ALL that increases in GHGs have ever caused increases in temperature. The present era is a very good example. Where’s the beef?

jae
January 24, 2012 6:43 pm

Ira:
“WIllis, it does not surprise me that a “cowboy” like you was one of the first to spot bullshit when you saw it. Great work on this Topic thread, I no longer give any scientific credence to the work of N&Z. THANKS!
– Ira”
REAL scientific conversation in action, Ira. LOL. It could easily be in the Climategate emails!

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