I’ve been looking at the Nikolov and Zeller paper again. Among other things, they claim to be able to calculate the surface temperature Ts of eight different planets and moons from knowing nothing more than the solar irradiation So and the surface pressure Ps for each heavenly body. Dr. Zeller refers to this as their MIRACLE equation. He says:
Why aren’t you all trying to disprove our MIRACLE equation rather than banging your heads against walls trying to prove or disprove who knows what and exclaiming you have problems with this or that? The question is how can we possibly have done it – there is no question that our equations work – if you haven’t verified that it works, why haven’t you? […] Why aren’t you thinking: “hmmmm, N&Z have given us an equation that lo-and-behold when we plug in the measured pressures and calculate Tgb as they suggest, gives us a calculated Ts that also matches measured values! You can’t disprove the equation? So maybe we are cooking the data books somehow, but how?
This is supposed to be evidence that their theory is correct, and people keep telling me ‘but they’ve got real evidence, they can make predictions of planetary temperatures, check it out”. Plus it’s hard to ignore an invitation like Dr. Zellers, so I checked it out.
Figure 1. These are not the equations you are looking for.
They first postulate something called the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” or “ATE” effect that makes the earth warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.
The “ATE effect” is measured by something called Nte(Ps), which is defined and estimated in their paper as follows.

where Nte(Ps) is a measure of the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” effect.
Nte(Ps) is defined as the actual average surface air temperature of the planet Ts divided by the theoretical “graybody” temperature of the planet Tgb calculated from the total solar insolation So of the planet. Nte(Ps) is estimated using a fitted function of the surface pressure of the planet Ps.
Let me simplify things a bit. Symbolically, the right part of equation (7) can be written as
Nte(Ps) = e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4) (7Sym)
where “e” is the base of natural logs and Ps is the surface pressure on the planet or moon. There are four tunable parameters (t1 through t4) that are “fitted” or tuned to the data. In other words, those values are repeatedly adjusted and tuned until the desired fit is obtained. This fitting can be easily done in Excel using the “Solve…” menu item. As you’d expect with four parameters and only eight datapoints, the fit is quite good, and their estimate is quite close to the actual value of Nte(Ps).
Amusingly, the result of equation (7) is then used in another fitted (tuned) equation, number (8). This is:

where So is total solar irradiation.
This is their piece de resistance, their MIRACLE equation, wherein they are saying the surface temperature of eight different planets and moons can be calculated from just two variables— Pr, the surface pressure, and So, the total Solar irradiation. This is what amazes the folks in the crowd so much that they write and tell me there is “evidence” that N&Z are right.
Obviously, there is another tuned parameter in equation (8), so we can rewrite this one symbolically as:
Ts = t5 * (Solar + adjustment ) ^ 1/4 * Nte(Ps). (8Sym)
Let me pause a minute and point something out about equation (8). The total solar irradiation Solar ranges from over 9,000 W/m2 for Mercury down to 1.51 W/m2 for Triton. Look at equation 8. How will adding the adjustment = 0.0001325 to any of those values before taking the fourth root make the slightest bit of difference in the result? That’s just bizarre, that is. They say they put it in so that the formula will be accurate when there is no solar, so it will give the background radiation of 3 Kelvins. Who cares? Truly, it changes Ts by a maximum of a thousandth of a degree for Triton. So for the moment let me remove it, as it makes no practical difference and it’s just confusing things.
Back to the tale. Removing the adjustment and substituting equation 7 into equation 8 we get:
Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4) (eqn 9)
This is amazing. These guys are seriously claiming that with only eight datapoints and no less than five tunable parameters , they can calculate the surface temperature of the eight planets knowing only their surface pressure and solar irradiation. And with that many knobs to turn, I am sure they can do that. I did it on my own spreadsheet using their figures. I get about the same values for t1 through t5. But that proves nothing at all.
I mean … I can only stand in awe at the sheer effrontery of that claim. They are using only eight datapoints and five tunable parameters with a specially-designed ad-hoc equation with no physical basis. And they don’t think that’s odd in the slightest.
I will return to this question of the number of parameters in a bit, because even though it’s gobsmacking what they’ve done there, it’s not the best part of the story. Here’s the sting in the tale. We can also substitute equation (7) into equation (8) in a slightly different way, using the middle term in equation 7. This yields:
Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb (eqn 10)
This means that if we start out by knowing the surface temperature Ts on the right side of the equation, we can then calculate Ts on the left side … shocking, I know, who would have guessed. Let’s check the rest of the math in equation (10) to see why that works out.
Upon inspection it can be seen that the first part of the right side of equation (10),
t5 * Solar^0.25
is an alternate form of the familiar Stefan-Boltzmann equation relating temperature and radiation. The S-B equation can be written as
T = (Solar / c1) ^ 0.25.
where T is temperature and c1 is a constant equal to the S-B constant times the emissivity. We can rewrite this as
T = 1/(c1^0.25) * Solar^0.25
Setting another constant c2 equal to 1 / (c1^0.25) gives me the Stefan-Boltzmann equation as:
T = c2 * Solar^0.25
But this is exactly the form of the first part of the right side of equation 10. More to the point, it is an approximation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb.
We can check this by observing that if emissivity is .9 then constant c1 is 5.103E-8, and c2 is therefore about 66. However, that value will be reduced by the rotation of the planet. Per the N&Z formula in their latest post, that gives a value of about 27.
Their fitted value is 25, not far from the actual value. So curiously, what it turns out they’ve done is to estimate the Stefan-Boltzmann constant by a bizarre curve fitting method. And they did a decent job of that. Actually, pretty impressive considering the number of steps and parameters involved.
But since t5 * Solar^0.25 is an estimation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb, that means that Equation 10 reduces from
Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb (eqn 10)
to
Ts = Tgb * Ts / Tgb.
and finally to
Ts = Ts
TA-DA!
CONCLUSION
Let me recap the underlying effect of what they have done. They are looking at eight planets and moons.
1. They have used an equation
e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4)
with four free parameters to yield an estimate of Ts/Tgb based on surface pressure. As one would expect given the fact that there are half as many free parameters as there are data points, and that they are given free choice to pick any form for their equation without limit, this presents no problem at all, and can be done with virtually any dataset.
2. They have used an equation
t5 * Solar^0.25
with one free parameter in order to put together an estimate of Tgb based on total planetary insolation. Since Tgb does depend inter alia on planetary insolation, again this presents no problem.
3. They have multiplied the two estimates together. Since the result is an estimate of Tgb times an estimate of Ts/Tgb, of course this has the effect of cancelling out Tgb.
4. They note that what remains is Ts, and they declare a MIRACLE.
Look, guys … predicting Ts when you start out with Ts? Not all that hard, and with five free parameters and a choice of any equation no matter how non-physically based, that is no MIRACLE of any kind, just another case of rampant curve fitting …
Finally, there is a famous story in science about this kind of pseudo-scientific use of parameters and equations, told by Freeman Dyson:
We began by calculating meson–proton scattering, using a theory of the strong forces known as pseudoscalar meson theory. By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering. We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.
When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice. “There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.
I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a selfconsistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us. With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”
In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?”
I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.”
He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.” With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.
The Nikolov and Zeller equation contains five parameters and only eight data points. I rest my case that it is not a MIRACLE that they can make the elephant wiggle his trunk, but an expected and trivial result of their faulty procedures.
My regards to everyone,
w.
PS—There is, of course, a technical term for what they have done, as there are no new mistakes under the sun. It is called “overfitting”. As Wikipedia says, “Overfitting generally occurs when a model is excessively complex, such as having too many parameters relative to the number of observations.” Five parameters is far, far too many relative to eight observations, that is a guaranteed overfit.
PPS—One problem with N&Z’s MIRACLE equation is that they have not statistically tested it in any way.
One way to see if their fit is even remotely valid is to leave out some of the datapoints and fit it again. Of course with only eight datapoints to start with, this is problematic … but in any case if the fitted parameters come out radically different when you do that, this casts a lot of doubt on your fit. I encourage N&Z to do this and report back on their results. I’d do it, but they don’t believe me, so what’s the point?
Aother way to check their fit is to divide the dataset in half, do the fit on one half, and then check the results on the other half. This is because fitted equations like they are using are known to perform very poorly “out of sample”, that is to say on data not used to fit the parameters. Given only eight data points and four parameters for equation 7, of course this is again problematic, since if you divide the set in half you end up with as many parameters as data points … you’d think that might be a clue that the procedure is sketchy but what do I know, I was born yesterday. In any case I encourage N&Z to perform that test as well. My results from that test say that their fit is meaningless, but perhaps their test results will be different.
[UPDATE] One of the commenters below said:
Willis – go ahead – fit an elephant. Please!
Seriously N&Z are only demonstrating in algebra what has been observed in experiments, that heating a gas in a sealed container increases both pressure and temperature.
OK, here’s my shot at emulating the surface temperature using nothing but the data in the N&Z chart of planetary body properties:
Figure 1. Willis’s emulation of the surface temperature of the planetary bodies.
My equation contains one more variable and two less parameters than the N&Z equation. Remember their equation was:
Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)
My equation, on the other hand, is:
Ts = 0.8 * Tgb + 6.9 * Density + 0.2 * Gravity)
Note that I am absolutely not making any claim that temperature is determined by density and gravity. I am merely showing that fitting a few points with a few variables and a few parameters is not all that difficult. It also shows that one can get the answer without using surface pressure at all. Finally, it shows that neither my emulation nor N&Z’s emulation of the planetary temperatures are worth a bucket of warm spit …
[UPDATE 2] I figured that since I was doing miracles with the N&Z miracle equation, I shouldn’t stop there. I should see if I could beat them at their own game, and make a simpler miracle. Once again, their equation:
Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)
My simplified version of their equation looks like this:
Ts = 25.394 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.092 * Pressure ^ 0.17)
Curiously, my simplified version actually has a slightly lower RMS error than the N&Z version, so I did indeed beat them at their own game. My equation is not only simpler, it is more accurate. They’re free to use my simplified miracle equation, no royalties necessary. Here are the fits:
Figure 2. A simpler version of the N&Z equation 8
Again, I make no claim that this improves things. The mere fact that I can do it with two less tuned parameters (three instead of five) than N&Z used does not suddenly mean that it is not overfitted.
Both the simplified and the complex version of the N&Z equations are nothing but curve fitting. This is proven by the fact that we already have three simple and very different equations that hindcast the planetary temperatures. That’s the beauty of a fitted equation, if you are clever you can fit a lot using only a little … but THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT PRESSURE DETERMINES TEMPERATURE.
For example, I can do the same thing without using pressure at all, but using density instead. Here’s that equation:
Ts = 25.491 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.603 * Density ^ 0.201)
And here’s the results:
Figure 3. An emulation of the planetary temperatures, using density instead of pressure.
Does this now mean that the planetary temperature is really controlled by density? Of course not, this whole thing is an exercise in curve fitting.
w.




John Day says:
January 27, 2012 at 9:52 am
Hey Eli, did you catch this? John says no problem. All N&Z have to do is “run the experiment again”, but this time they just need to “derive the results from first principles”.
This guy is classic, he actually thinks that your suggestion can be implemented easily, all you need to do is just “run the experiment again” and this time keep your eyes open for first principles …
John, that’s too good, that’s your most hilarious post yet, and you don’t even realize it’s funny. Keep’m coming … you’ve actually gotten me and the eponymous lagomorph on the same side of the fence, and not many men can achieve that.
w.
@Willis
> Consider yourself called.
No, I’m calling you on this one Willis. I’m referring to this post:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/23/the-mystery-of-equation-8/#comment-875663
Ned said:
“Do you know how much of addition radiation is needed to actually raise the temperature of the Moon by 133K?? 14,800 W m-2 …”
You said:
“Thanks for the question, Ned. You might want to check your units. Watts per square metre is a FLOW of energy, not an AMOUNT of energy. As a result, you can never answer a question of “how much additional radiation is needed” with watts per square metre. You need watt-hours, or watt seconds (joules), or the like. Those are amounts of energy.”
Ned did have the units right watts/m², power per unit area, not “AMOUNT of energy” as you _incorrectly_ claimed (but won’t admit).
For the umpteenth time, the S-B equation relates temperature to power per unit area. NOT AMOUNT OF ENERGY!!!
That’s all I was referring to. You accused me of not even knowing what Ned was talking about. I countered that I did, which you somehow twisted into saying that I had volunteered to explain N&Z in place of Ned. I made no such statement.
But that’s not as bad as the snarky tone of “You might want to check you units” followed by an elementary-school lecture on the difference between power and energy.
It is this kind of uncalled for venomous ridicule (just one example out of dozens) that you and others have made that explain why Ned and Karl are reluctant to answer (“refused” as you say) your request for an elevator speech.
Perhaps Anthony needs to set up a new thread on this where you are banned from commenting. Then we could have a fruitful discussion with the good Drs. (Just saying.)
> Your elevator speech ends where it should start, with the explanation of how it works.
Actually I thought it did a little more than that, addressing the issues of energy conservation and heat capacity, which have been considered ‘show stoppers’ for many who would otherwise be willing to look at it.
And you’ll have to admit that it’s the best ATE elevator speech given so far, even though I didn’t really explain ATE. Because I’m still trying to wrap my head around the details of that.
Stay tuned.
😐
Tilo Reber says:
January 26, 2012 at 9:06 pm
I don’t need to destroy the experiment because there is no evidence that it proves anything about Equation 8. You can’t test a hypothesis with an experiment unless you understand the physical basis for the hypothesis. Since no one has been able to explain the hypothesis underlying Equation 8, much less linking to known physical laws (i.e. Eli’s challenge to derive it ab initio remains unanswered), handwaving about the ideal gas law notwithstanding, designing an experiment to test it is problematic, to put it mildly. Konrad has obtained a result. What’s implausible is that this result is due to some previously unknown relationship between pressure and temperature. There are lots of possible reasons that are linked to known physical laws that might explain that result. I’ve thrown out a few. But it’s not my responsibility to analyze the experiment in detail. It’s Konrad’s to show that he hasn’t made some fundamental error in reasoning in designing the experiment and that the result has proved the existence of the underlying physical principle of Equation 8, whatever that is. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Then why didn’t you ridicule Eli when he proposed it? I’m not taking credit for the idea. Anthony liked it too.
Maybe because Eli is not threatening your credibility and your strangle-hold on the tone of this discussion?
I really think your ridiculing comments like above should be moderated by Anthony.
John Day,
unfortunately for some, blogs ARE a “beauty” contest. As long as people are animated about Willis’ posts they will continue pretty much as we see them. Willis is. If people start shunning his posts then things will change. No I am not calling for a boycott even though I think Willis would help the discussion along by not heaping the ridicule so quickly and so high. Just suggesting that looking for a policeman to take down the bully isn’t the solution to the issue.
Willis: “You lay out a whole line of reasoning … so what?”
Thanks, Willis. I think that tells me everything that I need to know about your position.
Tilo, I share your frustration. Willis is attacking and ridiculing our attempts to present ideas about this. No wonder N&Z are avoiding get involved. It’s getting toxic here.
Look, folks, I tend toward NZ’s stuff, but they need to rationalize Willis’ basic “transparent atmosphere catch-22” before they go any further. (Even though a “transparent atmosphere” is probably just a big figment.).
And Willis hasn’t “won” until he has refuted all the empirical evidence presented by Huffman for Venus.
John Day says:
January 27, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Call all you want. You said you were not going to answer for Ned. You are referring to a question Ned has not answered. I told you, when I want to know about the music I ask the organ grinder, not the monkey.
I don’t care what you think Ned’s answer will be, or should be, or might be. I don’t care whether you think Ned is right or wrong.
I care what Ned’s answer is.
w.
John Day says:
January 27, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Eli proposed it as A JOKE, John, because he knew it was an impossible task. First, it’s not an “experiment” that they can “do again”, it’s a trivial fitting exercise. Second, there is no way to derive that equation from first principles. None. It’s just a curve fitting exercise, nothing more.
Eli was sending you on a snipe hunt, putting you onto a search for a left-handed monkey wrench, instigating a quest to fetch a bucket of steam.
Amazingly, you bit on Eli’s suggestion, and seriously wanted to relay it to N&Z. You were so astoundingly clueless, you didn’t realize that Eli was just taking the mickey out of you.
Then, when I called Eli’s attention to the fact that you were, of all things, seriously proposing what Eli said in jest, you have now come back to ask why I didn’t ridicule Eli?
Ridicule Eli for making a hilarious and totally unachievable suggestion? I just thought what he said was funny. Hey, I never thought you’d be so out of it as to actually take Eli’s bait.
John, watching you thrash around is painful.
w.
Tilo Reber says:
January 27, 2012 at 2:58 pm
John Day says:
January 27, 2012 at 4:36 pm
You guys insist that the claim of Ned about the 14,800 W/m2 means something. Yet you can’t even say which possibile interpretations of his words is right. Or maybe all of them are wrong. WE DON’T KNOW until Ned comes back to explain them.
So no, Tilo, I don’t care in the slightest about your reasoning, or John’s reasoning. Until Ned comes back we know nothing, you guys are just guessing, and I care as little for your fantasies of what Ned means as I care for my own fantasies in that regard.
w.
PS–For those keeping score, Ned had said:
That statement, by itself, makes no sense at all. Ned also said:
I have no clue what Ned means. I have asked him. He hasn’t answered. John Day claimed he knew the answer and would answer for Ned. Except then he claimed he wouldn’t answer for Ned. Now, John again claims to know the answer. Now he says this was Ned’s meaning:
The temperature corresponding to 14,800 W/m2 is 442 degrees. That’s 133 degrees above 309 degrees. That’s why Ned’s statement makes no sense. John’s statement also makes no sense.
jae says:
January 27, 2012 at 7:10 pm
I have shown that no effect can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature. That’s one win.
I have shown, as has Robert Brown, that the Jelbring hypothesis is falsified. That’s two wins.
I have shown above that the MIRACLE equation is a trivial exercise in curve fitting. Three wins.
Now, there may be other discussions out there, perhaps including “all the empirical evidence presented by Huffman for Venus”. And I might win there too, or I might lose.
But until someone can explain Huffman’s theory to me in a clear and concise way, I’m not touching any evidence. I’ve wasted enough time on gravity-heads this week to last a lifetime. You want me to look at Hoffman, you tell me what his theory is.
w.
Willis Eschenbach,
” I have shown above that the MIRACLE equation is a trivial exercise in curve fitting. Three wins.”\
No, you have shown that it MAY or even PROBABLY is a trivial exercise in curve fitting. If you are going to continue hammering people try being more precise and correct yourself.
@Willis
> You guys insist that the claim of Ned about the 14,800 W/m2
> means something. Yet you can’t even say which possibile
> interpretations of his words is right. Or maybe all of them are
> wrong. WE DON’T KNOW until Ned comes back to explain them.
I hope you understand that it represents the ATE warmth that an atmosphere provides (but I’m not so sure about that).
You keep asking me to derive the steps of the calculation the produced this particular number, and I’ve told you as politely as I can that I DON’T KNOW!
But, unlike you, I don’t automatically assume that if I don’t understand something then it must be nonsense.
Yes, it would be nice to have Ned explain exactly how that exact value was obtained.
Even if it was a miscalculation on Ned’s part, it doesn’t invalidate the theory. It was just a piece of dialog trying to explain the theory. But you have so poisoned the atmosphere here (no pun intended) that I can understand why Ned wouldn’t want you to him ridicule him. “Hey, look folks. Ned made stupid a error! My, what sheer effrontery! That means his theory is wrong!”
@ur momisugly John, watching you thrash around is painful.
That’s the exactly the kind of language that poisons the atmosphere here and prevents any meaningful discussion.
I don’t really care what Eli’s motives were, perhaps he is a troll, his suggestion actually made sense.
Konrad proposed a ‘bottle’ experiment (offline somewhere I didn’t read the details) which I gather was supposed to demonstrate (or not) how pressure effects temperature according to the ATE. If successfull, then I suppose Konrad could claim that it proves it would work the same on the planets. Even I (with remarkable ignorance) can see such an experiment would prove little unless carried out with very precisely defined controls.
Why not just show directly how it works with “live” planets as the experimental subjects?
In fact, N&Z have already started this experiment. Yes, they’ve attempted to fit the data to a power law which Willis doesn’t approve (because he can do it ‘better’).
But they also demonstrated, from first principles, that the simple Ideal Gas Law formula T = P/ ρ • M/R when applied directly to Venus ,Earth and Mars gives reaonable estimates of their surface temps.
But Willis has no patience with this. Oh, but it’s not perfect and there are some planets that don’t fit this simple equation. So it must be nonsense. Don’t try to analyze why it doesn’t work for some planets and come up with a better formula derived from first principles. Right?
If Edison listened to Willis he would have never got past his first failed light bulb attempt.
😐
@ur momisugly John, watching you thrash around is painful.
Actually, your intent seems to be to deliberately cause pain by throwing these poisoned barbs at us, for daring to speak our thoughts on these subjects.
Perhaps some of us lack complete understanding or occasionally make silly statements.
That’s no excuse for this vendetta of personal attacks and ridicule.
It’s really over the top. I wish Anthony would yank you out of here so the rest of us (including N&Z) could have some meaningful discussions about this novel theory.
If it turns out to be wrong, so what? We’ll all learn from this, even from the mistakes, which do not merit your mean-spirited barbs.
😐
John Day says:
No, they haven’t. They just mumble some stuff about the ideal gas law and then draw a conclusion that in no way follows from it and you guys naively believe them! If you can find me a book on climate science that doesn’t discuss the ideal gas law then I will be impressed…The notion that climate science ignores the ideal gas law or that N&Z’s silliness follows from the ideal gas law is a complete falsehood swallowed hook-line-and-sinker by the gullible.
Oh, so now Nikolov and Zeller are Edison, in addition to be Copernicus and Einstein! For those of us who know the difference between actual science and nonsense, these comparisons are just plain silly.
What interests me about the N&Z claim is the attempt to draw all planets/moons into the debate on what the surface temperature of a planet/moon should be. They believe it can be explained by total solar irradiation and pressure (where an atmosphere is present). They present an empirical formula that fits all the data in our solar system. Yes, the “MIRACLE” equation is wrong in the sense that it is empirical and not theoretical and simpler equations likely can be found. But the fact remains that pressure seems to factor in to planetary temperatures in a way that we don’t understand.
I’m with John Daly on this one. There is likely a rational explanation lurking in the background somewhere. I doubt it will be found in this thread.
We don’t even know why some planets (Jupiter, for example) emit more energy than they receive from the sun. Uranium? I don’t think so. Energy trapped during its formation? Probably not. Fusion? Uh – no. So we don’t even know why planetary temperatures are not what they are supposed to be, but we pretend to know that pressure is not related to the answer.
@Steve
> I’m with John Daly on this one. There is likely a rational
> explanation lurking in the background somewhere. I doubt
> it will be found in this thread.
Please don’t confuse me (remarkably ignorant) with the late, great John Daly, whose shoes few are worthy of filling:
http://www.john-daly.com/
> So we don’t even know why planetary temperatures
> are not what they are supposed to be, but we pretend
> to know that pressure is not related to the answer.
Agreed. Isn’t it ironic that we all accept the S-B equation as a reliable estimator of airless planet surfaces, without even considering chemical composition, densisty, heat capacity etc? In other words, each planet’s “dirt” is remarkably different yet seems to have no effect on the GB temperature.
On the other extreme, atmospheres (for those planets lucky enough to possess one) are remarkably more “pure” than the surface “dirt”. Just a nice mixture of a few clean gases.
But when N&Z suggest that atmospheric composition can be ignored for computing the so-called ‘green house effect’ and further suggest it can be computed directly from the Ideal Gas Law, everyone goes into a tizzy and says “You can’t use the Gas Law like that without considering composition! A very tiny amount of CO2 changes everything!! ( But really big changes in carbonates in the ground has no effect at all on the GB temperature)
Double standard? Yes. And even more so because the S-B equation is also based on a similar gas law (Photon Gas Law). (Described in more detail in my ATE elevator speech above).
😐
Steve from Rockwood says:
That is another myth, that we don’t why pressure is a factor. Maybe you don’t, but I quite clearly understand reasons why pressure is a factor:
(1) The most important reason is that because of the way that N&Z have chosen to define T_sb, anything like an atmosphere that causes the temperature distribution to become more uniform on a planet or moon (than it would be under their assumption that local temperature is determined by radiative balance with local insolation) will cause an increase in the average temperature. This increase is not associated with any increase in the radiative power emitted by the surface. It is simply due to the fact that there are many different temperature distributions and corresponding average temperatures that give the same emitted power…and the more uniform distributions among these have higher average temperature. Hence, as you add an atmosphere to a planet, there is more heat transport and storage and as a result, the temperature distribution becomes more uniform and the average temperature higher WITH NO CHANGE IN THE POWER EMITTED BY THE PLANET’S SURFACE. Or, to put it another way, conservation of energy (radiative balance) REQUIRES that a planet with a more uniform temperature distribution (and the same total insolation from the sun) be at a higher average temperature than a planet with a less uniform temperature distribution. Of the 8 bodies that N&Z studied, this is practically the sole reason why the average surface temperature exceeds their calculated T_sb for 5 of them and the majority reason for another two (Earth and Titan). [For example, in the case of Earth, it accounts for ~75% of the purported 133 K discrepancy, with the radiative greenhouse effect accounting for the other ~25%.] Only for Venus is it necessary to invoke a higher surface emission (due to a radiative greenhouse effect) to explain the majority of their surface temperature enhancement. It is somewhat puzzling to me why these concepts seem so difficult for many people to grasp.
(2) There will also tend to be a positive correlation between pressure and strength of the radiative greenhouse effect. Two reasons for this is that a planet obviously has to have a significant atmosphere in order to have a significant amount of greenhouse gases, and that an effect of higher pressures is to broaden the absorption bands of the greenhouse gases, making them more effective.
From what I can gather, it is actually understood: Jupiter is undergoing slow gravitational collapse.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080106005818AA6tNF8 Hence, it is converting gravitational potential energy into thermal energy. This is a way that gravity can “generate” energy that follows accepted Laws of Physics, i.e., obeys conservation of energy, in contrast to the gravity-pressure nonsense like N&Z propose. The Earth and its atmosphere are not undergoing gravitational collapse…and, furthermore, the Earth as seen from space is not emitting more energy than it receives from the sun. The surface of the Earth is doing this, but some of what the surface emits is absorbed by the atmosphere, a process that we call the atmospheric greenhouse effect.
John Day said @ur momisugly January 28, 2012 at 4:29 am
John, I don’t seem to have any problem reading your comments, so I suspect nobody is stopping you. There is a lack of “meaningfulness”. Meaningful: having a recognizable purpose or function resulting from the application of the rules of a language or sign system. Requests for clarification of what the heck N&Z mean have not resulted (so far) in meaningful responses. If there’s a “vendetta” here, it’s being waged on common sense.
@Willis
> I have shown that no effect can raise the
> temperature of a planet with a transparent
> GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical
> S-B temperature. That’s one win.
What’s this ‘win’ stuff? Who’s keeping score in this ‘competition’? Do you think it’s fair that one of the ‘competitors’ is also the ‘referee’?
And why did we start ‘keeping score’ in this competition before the other ‘competitor’ had fair change to complete their presentation (Part II)? All we have is their abbreviated poster-board description and Part I clarification.
And who determined that Willis was correct in the assertion above? (Ans: Willis, of course. He’s the referee).
He’s wrong of course. His argument contains a logical fallacy (‘begging the question’), that even I, who am remarkably ignorant, could spot right after reading it. (In fact it inspired my ATE Elevator Speech. Thanks Willis)
He claims that planets with atmospheres can’t have temperatures above S-B unless some mechanism is in effect. If that mechanism is present then the temperature can be raised. But if that mechanism is not present then it can’t rise above S-B temp.
What is this mechanism? Well, Willis apparently believes that atmostpheric chemical composition is needed to determine planetary temperatures. So that mechanism is the presence (or not) of GHG gases. And it’s the only mechanism that has this capability, according to his proof.
What if someone wanted to claim that some other mechanism could also raise the temperature?
Sorry, we have assumed a priori that GHG-free is the only mechanism. Let’s look at your argument. Oh, you claim ATE is also a mechanism that can explain the rise in temperature? Sorry, that is not GHG-related so it cannot be true.
Now, Willis is very bright, so he will counter: “But ATE has not been proven! So GHG certifiably can only be admitted in discussion. Case closed. I win”
But that’s begging the question. Willis considers this a “show stopper” for ATE and has set this discussion up with that assumption (i.e. he’s already awarded himself one point on the win side). But if we could show that ATE is true, then Willis would be wrong (and his score decreased).
Willis is basically trying to disprove ATE, using the fact that GHG is the only ‘approved’ temperature raising mechanism. Therefore ATE must be false, begging the question.
I stated this in my elevator speech, but I guess I didn’t elaborate the underlying fallacy enough.
So, for the sake of argument, we need to assume ATE would raise the temperature and then prove or disprove that claim on its own merits, not assume it’s false before we attempt to prove it.
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@git
> John, I don’t seem to have any problem reading your comments,
> so I suspect nobody is stopping you.
Thanks for you comment. But note that, in addition to ranting about Willis’ rude behavior, I have posted many comments already (hopefully not too remarkably ignorant) towards a meaningful discussion and trying to entreat N&Z to re-engage (perhaps with assurances that they won’t be regarded as idiots).
I think my elevator speech is a step in that direction. In fact I think I may have found yet another ‘unifying’ theme that might have been overlooked even by N&Z, namely that all planetary temperatures, even the S-B derived temps, are the product of “gas laws”: 1) Photon Gas Law (aka S-B) and 2) Ideal Gas Law.
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John Day says:
January 28, 2012 at 11:20 am
I presume you mean ex nihilo rather than a priori, but that’s just a nitpick. The reason that ghg’s are invoked as the mechanism is because the experimental evidence, particularly, but not limited to, the IR emission spectra observed from high altitude show this to be the case. While the energy balance can’t be closed completely either from space or at the surface because measurement precision is lacking, there just isn’t much room left for any other explanation.
@joel Shore
> No, they haven’t [demonstrated from first principles etc]
According to wayne, who created a concise results table below, when you plug in the values for Venus, Earth and Mars you get 740.40 290.09 210.24 K
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/29/unified-theory-of-climate/#comment-847256
Yes, they should have included this chart in their poster. Perhaps we’ll see it in Part II. In any case, it’s a set of ‘promising results’. That’s all I said it was at this stage. The theory doesn’t have to be complete developed to be worthy of further research.
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@DeWitt Payne
> I presume you mean ex nihilo rather than a priori, but that’s just a nitpick.
No, I meant a priori in the sense that he is assuming beforehand that there exists only one valid mechanism as ‘proof’ that there cannot be any others.
> .. there just isn’t much room left for any other explanation.
Then you accept that other mechanisms are feasible. If ATE turns out to correct, then it obviously will become the defacto explanation.
Yes, I know, if pigs had wings they could fly. But I’m just addressing the logic of Willis’ proof. Not the likelihood that ATE is correct at this point. (We’ll have a better estimate after further discussions with N&Z)
@joel Shore
I read through your paragraph (1) above and confess that I don’t understand it well enough to make a meaningful comment. (But I don’t consider it to be nonsense)
> (2) There will also tend to be a positive correlation between pressure
> and strength of the radiative greenhouse effect.
Yes, of course, but N&Z go further and claim this correlation completly determines temperature from pressure, supplanting the GHE theory.
> … reasons for this is that … an effect of higher pressures is to
> broaden the absorption bands of the greenhouse gases,
> making them more effective.
I’m skeptical (but possibly misinformed) that this broadening effect is due to Doppler shift caused by the increased molecular speeds. I posted a comment about this to Nilolov, but he didn’t respond (up to his neck wrestling with other alligators I guess)
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/29/unified-theory-of-climate/#comment-851868
Can you give me a pointer to what makes the molecules under pressure more efficient absorbers of radiation, given that ‘pressure’ doesn’t exist at the molecular level, just more or less frequent collisions.
Also, you gave a reference in the Pierrehumbert book, page 148, which is the blank page preceding Chap 4. Maybe we have different editions. Can you give me a paragraph reference of that claim you made that ATE was somehow addressed there. Thanks.
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