The Mystery of Equation 8

I’ve been looking at the Nikolov and Zeller paper again. Among other things, they claim to be able to calculate the surface temperature Ts of eight different planets and moons from knowing nothing more than the solar irradiation So and the surface pressure Ps for each heavenly body. Dr. Zeller refers to this as their MIRACLE equation. He says:

Why aren’t you all trying to disprove our MIRACLE equation rather than banging your heads against walls trying to prove or disprove who knows what and exclaiming you have problems with this or that? The question is how can we possibly have done it – there is no question that our equations work – if you haven’t verified that it works, why haven’t you? […] Why aren’t you thinking: “hmmmm, N&Z have given us an equation that lo-and-behold when we plug in the measured pressures and calculate Tgb as they suggest, gives us a calculated Ts that also matches measured values! You can’t disprove the equation? So maybe we are cooking the data books somehow, but how?

This is supposed to be evidence that their theory is correct, and people keep telling me ‘but they’ve got real evidence, they can make predictions of planetary temperatures, check it out”. Plus it’s hard to ignore an invitation like Dr. Zellers, so I checked it out.

Figure 1. These are not the equations you are looking for.

They first postulate something called the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” or “ATE” effect that makes the earth warmer than it would be without an atmosphere.

The “ATE effect” is measured by something called Nte(Ps), which is defined and estimated in their paper as follows.

where Nte(Ps) is a measure of the “Near-surface Atmospheric Thermal Enhancement” effect.

Nte(Ps) is defined as the actual average surface air temperature of the planet Ts divided by the theoretical “graybody” temperature of the planet Tgb calculated from the total solar insolation So of the planet. Nte(Ps) is estimated using a fitted function of the surface pressure of the planet Ps.

Let me simplify things a bit. Symbolically, the right part of equation (7) can be written as

Nte(Ps) = e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4)       (7Sym)

where “e” is the base of natural logs and Ps is the surface pressure on the planet or moon. There are four tunable parameters (t1 through t4) that are “fitted” or tuned to the data. In other words, those values are repeatedly adjusted and tuned until the desired fit is obtained. This fitting can be easily done in Excel using the “Solve…” menu item. As you’d expect with four parameters and only eight datapoints, the fit is quite good, and their estimate is quite close to the actual value of Nte(Ps).

Amusingly, the result of equation (7) is then used in another fitted (tuned) equation, number (8). This is:

where So is total solar irradiation.

This is their piece de resistance, their MIRACLE equation, wherein they are saying the surface temperature of eight different planets and moons can be calculated from just two variables— Pr, the surface pressure, and So, the total Solar irradiation. This is what amazes the folks in the crowd so much that they write and tell me there is “evidence” that N&Z are right.

Obviously, there is another tuned parameter in equation (8), so we can rewrite this one symbolically as:

Ts = t5 * (Solar + adjustment ) ^ 1/4 * Nte(Ps).        (8Sym)

Let me pause a minute and point something out about equation (8). The total solar irradiation Solar ranges from over 9,000 W/m2 for Mercury down to 1.51 W/m2 for Triton. Look at equation 8. How will adding the adjustment = 0.0001325 to any of those values before taking the fourth root make the slightest bit of difference in the result? That’s just bizarre, that is. They say they put it in so that the formula will be accurate when there is no solar, so it will give the background radiation of 3 Kelvins. Who cares? Truly, it changes Ts by a maximum of a thousandth of a degree for Triton. So for the moment let me remove it, as it makes no practical difference and it’s just confusing things.

Back to the tale. Removing the adjustment and substituting equation 7 into equation 8 we get:

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4) (eqn 9)

This is amazing. These guys are seriously claiming that with only eight datapoints and no less than five tunable parameters , they can calculate the surface temperature of the eight planets knowing only their surface pressure and solar irradiation. And with that many knobs to turn, I am sure they can do that. I did it on my own spreadsheet using their figures. I get about the same values for t1 through t5. But that proves nothing at all.

I mean … I can only stand in awe at the sheer effrontery of that claim. They are using only eight datapoints and five tunable parameters with a specially-designed ad-hoc equation with no physical basis. And they don’t think that’s odd in the slightest.

I will return to this question of the number of parameters in a bit, because even though it’s gobsmacking what they’ve done there, it’s not the best part of the story. Here’s the sting in the tale. We can also substitute equation (7)  into equation (8) in a slightly different way, using the middle term in equation 7. This yields:

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb  (eqn 10)

This means that if we start out by knowing the surface temperature Ts on the right side of the equation, we can then calculate Ts on the left side … shocking, I know, who would have guessed. Let’s check the rest of the math in equation (10) to see why that works out.

Upon inspection it can be seen that the first part of the right side of equation (10),

t5 * Solar^0.25

is an alternate form of the familiar Stefan-Boltzmann equation relating temperature and radiation. The S-B equation can be written as

T = (Solar / c1) ^ 0.25.

where T is temperature and c1 is a constant equal to the S-B constant times the emissivity. We can rewrite this as

T = 1/(c1^0.25) * Solar^0.25

Setting another constant c2 equal to 1 / (c1^0.25) gives me the Stefan-Boltzmann equation as:

T = c2 * Solar^0.25

But this is exactly the form of the first part of the right side of equation 10. More to the point, it is an approximation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb.

We can check this by observing that if emissivity is .9 then constant c1 is 5.103E-8, and c2 is therefore about 66. However, that value will be reduced by the rotation of the planet. Per the N&Z formula in their latest post, that gives a value of about 27.

Their fitted value is 25, not far from the actual value. So curiously, what it turns out they’ve done is to estimate the Stefan-Boltzmann constant by a bizarre curve fitting method. And they did a decent job of that. Actually, pretty impressive considering the number of steps and parameters involved.

But since  t5  * Solar^0.25  is an estimation of the graybody temperature of the planet Tgb, that means that Equation 10 reduces from

Ts = t5 * Solar^0.25 * Ts / Tgb (eqn 10)

to

Ts = Tgb * Ts / Tgb.

and finally to

Ts = Ts

TA-DA!

CONCLUSION

Let me recap the underlying effect of what they have done. They are looking at eight planets and moons.

1. They have used an equation

e^(t1 * Ps ^ t2 + t3 * Ps ^ t4)

with four free parameters to yield an estimate of Ts/Tgb based on surface pressure. As one would expect given the fact that there are half as many free parameters as there are data points, and that they are given free choice to pick any form for their equation without limit, this presents no problem at all, and can be done with virtually any dataset.

2. They have used an equation

t5 * Solar^0.25

with one free parameter in order to put together an estimate of Tgb based on total planetary insolation. Since Tgb does depend inter alia on planetary insolation, again this presents no problem.

3. They have multiplied the two estimates together. Since the result is an estimate of Tgb times an estimate of Ts/Tgb, of course this has the effect of cancelling out Tgb.

4. They note that what remains is Ts, and they declare a MIRACLE.

Look, guys … predicting Ts when you start out with Ts? Not all that hard, and with five free parameters and a choice of any equation no matter how non-physically based, that is no MIRACLE of any kind, just another case of rampant curve fitting …

Finally, there is a famous story in science about this kind of pseudo-scientific use of parameters and equations, told by Freeman Dyson:

We began by calculating meson–proton scattering, using a theory of the strong forces known as pseudoscalar meson theory. By the spring of 1953, after heroic efforts, we had plotted theoretical graphs of meson–proton scattering. We joyfully observed that our calculated numbers agreed pretty well with Fermi’s measured numbers. So I made an appointment to meet with Fermi and show him our results. Proudly, I rode the Greyhound bus from Ithaca to Chicago with a package of our theoretical graphs to show to Fermi.

When I arrived in Fermi’s office, I handed the graphs to Fermi, but he hardly glanced at them. He invited me to sit down, and asked me in a friendly way about the health of my wife and our newborn baby son, now fifty years old. Then he delivered his verdict in a quiet, even voice. “There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics”, he said. “One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process that you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither.

I was slightly stunned, but ventured to ask him why he did not consider the pseudoscalar meson theory to be a selfconsistent mathematical formalism. He replied, “Quantum electrodynamics is a good theory because the forces are weak, and when the formalism is ambiguous we have a clear physical picture to guide us. With the pseudoscalar meson theory there is no physical picture, and the forces are so strong that nothing converges. To reach your calculated results, you had to introduce arbitrary cut-off procedures that are not based either on solid physics or on solid mathematics.”

In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He replied, “How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your calculations?”

I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and said, “Four.”

He said, “I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.” With that, the conversation was over. I thanked Fermi for his time and trouble, and sadly took the next bus back to Ithaca to tell the bad news to the students.

The Nikolov and Zeller equation contains five parameters and only eight data points. I rest my case that it is not a MIRACLE that they can make the elephant wiggle his trunk, but an expected and trivial result of their faulty procedures.

My regards to everyone,

w.

PS—There is, of course, a technical term for what they have done, as there are no new mistakes under the sun. It is called “overfitting”. As Wikipedia says, “Overfitting generally occurs when a model is excessively complex, such as having  too many parameters relative to the number of observations.” Five parameters is far, far too many relative to eight observations, that is a guaranteed overfit.

PPS—One problem with N&Z’s MIRACLE equation is that they have not statistically tested it in any way.

One way to see if their fit is even remotely valid is to leave out some of the datapoints and fit it again. Of course with only eight datapoints to start with, this is problematic … but in any case if the fitted parameters come out radically different when you do that, this casts a lot of doubt on your fit. I encourage N&Z to do this and report back on their results. I’d do it, but they don’t believe me, so what’s the point?

Aother way to check their fit is to divide the dataset in half, do the fit on one half, and then check the results on the other half. This is because fitted equations like they are using are known to perform very poorly “out of sample”, that is to say on data not used to  fit the parameters. Given only eight data points and four parameters for equation 7, of course this is again problematic, since if you divide the set in half you end up with as many parameters as data points … you’d think that might be a clue that the procedure is sketchy but what do I know, I was born yesterday. In any case I encourage N&Z to perform that test as well. My results from that test say that their fit is meaningless, but perhaps their test results will be different.

[UPDATE] One of the commenters below said:

Willis – go ahead – fit an elephant. Please!

Seriously N&Z are only demonstrating in algebra what has been observed in experiments, that heating a gas in a sealed container increases both pressure and temperature.

OK, here’s my shot at emulating the surface temperature using nothing but the data in the N&Z chart of planetary body properties:

Figure 1. Willis’s emulation of the surface temperature of the planetary bodies.

My equation contains one more variable and two less parameters than the N&Z equation. Remember their equation was:

Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)

My equation, on the other hand, is:

Ts = 0.8 * Tgb + 6.9 * Density + 0.2 * Gravity)

Note that I am absolutely not making any claim that temperature is determined by density and gravity. I am merely showing that fitting a few points with a few variables and a few parameters is not all that difficult. It also shows that one can get the answer without using surface pressure at all. Finally, it shows that neither my emulation nor N&Z’s emulation of the planetary temperatures are worth a bucket of warm spit …

[UPDATE 2] I figured that since I was doing miracles with the N&Z miracle equation, I shouldn’t stop there. I should see if I could beat them at their own game, and make a simpler miracle. Once again, their equation:

Ts = 25.3966 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.233001 * Pressure ^ 0.0651203 + 0.0015393 * Pressure ^ 0.385232)

My simplified version of their equation looks like this:

Ts = 25.394 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.092 * Pressure ^ 0.17)

Curiously, my simplified version actually has a slightly lower RMS error than the N&Z version, so I did indeed beat them at their own game. My equation is not only simpler, it is more accurate. They’re free to use my simplified miracle equation, no royalties necessary. Here are the fits:

Figure 2. A simpler version of the N&Z equation 8

Again, I make no claim that this improves things. The mere fact that I can do it with two less tuned parameters (three instead of five) than N&Z used does not suddenly mean that it is not overfitted.

Both the simplified and the complex version of the N&Z equations are nothing but curve fitting. This is proven by the fact that we already have three simple and very different equations that hindcast the planetary temperatures. That’s the beauty of a fitted equation, if you are clever you can fit a lot using only a little … but THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT PRESSURE DETERMINES TEMPERATURE.

For example, I can do the same thing without using pressure at all, but using density instead. Here’s that equation:

Ts = 25.491 * Solar^0.25 * e^(0.603 * Density ^ 0.201)

And here’s the results:

Figure 3. An emulation of the planetary temperatures, using density instead of pressure.

Does this now mean that the planetary temperature is really controlled by density? Of course not, this whole thing is an exercise in curve fitting.

w.

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Richard M
January 25, 2012 2:48 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 25, 2012 at 2:11 pm
No, no, no, and no. Let me say it a different way, as clearly I still have not gotten the point across to you.
I have not “confirmed the relationship may be even stronger”. I’ve just fit the same points with a different curve. So far, N&Z fit it one way, and I’ve fit it three other ways using different variables and different equations and different numbers of parameters.
All that means is that the problem is trivially simple, because there are five tunable parameters and eight data points and I’m given free choice of any equation, no matter how non-physical it might be.
So none of the fits mean anything, Richard.

Willis, you are using a logical fallacy here. Just because there exists multiple fits does not mean there doesn’t exist a meaningful fit.
I’m not trying to assert one exists. I’m simply trying to investigate whether one might exist. One of the reasons is that Miskolczi has found something very similar (a maximum GHE) through other methods. Empirical ones at that. And, then we have the Sorohkin paper as well. When I see lots of evidence pointing in the same direction it often means there’s something useful to be harvested. Or, it may be a bunch of weeds. However, try not to be hasty. If it turns out to be nothing, as you have claimed, then that will become evident eventually.

January 25, 2012 3:27 pm

@Willis
> What N&Z have done is just curve fitting.
@Willis
> N&Z are just “gaming the system” as you put it,
> their fits mean no more than mine do.
Ah, there is a big difference. You admit that you were just fitting data for fitting’s sake.
N&Z did not set about to fit data for just fitting sake. After discovering that they could fit temperature to pressure alone in this data, they followed it up with a scientific theory to explain.
You didn’t carry your fitting pursuit to that next higher level.
Apparently you missed what I wrote previously about this:

Their thesis is not at all about curve-fitting data to 8 points. You’ve got it backwards. In those 8 planetoids they noticed a remarkable correlation between pressure and temperature. Using those 8 planets as a ‘training set’ they were able to come up with an empirical power law which gave a ‘good fit’ between pressure and temperature.
But that was just a preliminary step in their research. Such empirical power laws don’t explain why they work. Zipf’s Power Law predicts word frequencies, city sizes, personal incomes etc but even Zipf couldn’t come up with a good reason why it worked so well. All he could say, waving his hands, was it due to some ‘principle of least effort’.
N&Z have done better than Zipf. They have started a new theory, based in classical physics, which explains _why_ you only need to know pressure to determine temperature.

😐

Joel Shore
January 25, 2012 4:03 pm

John Day says:

N&Z did not set about to fit data for just fitting sake. After discovering that they could fit temperature to pressure alone in this data, they followed it up with a scientific theory to explain.

Man, it must be stand-up comedy night here at WUWT.
There is no scientific theory; it is just a bunch of caballed together nonsense that appeals to people who can’t distinguish between real science and stuff that sounds sort of science-y.

January 25, 2012 4:12 pm

Joel Shore says:
January 25, 2012 at 4:03 pm
“Man, it must be stand-up comedy night here at WUWT.
There is no scientific theory; it is just a bunch of caballed together nonsense”
LOL. Good neologism!

Joel Shore
January 25, 2012 4:28 pm

“Man, it must be stand-up comedy night here at WUWT.
There is no scientific theory; it is just a bunch of caballed together nonsense”
LOL. Good neologism!

I’ll pretend that I did that on purpose! 😉 No wonder the spell-checker didn’t like it.

DeWitt Payne
January 25, 2012 4:41 pm

Ned Nikolov says:
January 25, 2012 at 1:55 pm

The concept of an emission height come from the incorrect application of the SB law when estimating the mean temperature of a sphere (see our Reply part 1). That simple equation produces about 255K (-18C) for Earth. This temperature is then erroneously identified with the actual measured temperature at about 5 km in mid troposphere, and a conclusion is drawn that this is where most of the IR radiation had to be emanating from. The reality is that IR radiation is coming out from all heights in the atmosphere simultaneously including the surface. It’s a continuum of IR fluxes in different wavelengths reaching space from various depths of the atmosphere. That continuum of emitted IR radiation with depth is what enables the remote sensing of vertical temperature and moisture profiles (as well as other atmospheric parameters) from satellites.

When I look at an atmospheric IR emission spectrum to space, I don’t see a continuum. That implies a smooth curve with slowly changing slope like Bremsstrahlung from an x-ray tube or black body radiation. Remote sensing relies on structure in the spectrum. A continuum, by definition, has no, or at least very little, structure. I do agree that the concept of an effective emission height is nothing more than a mathematical construct. But that doesn’t make it meaningless. Calculating an effective temperature by integrating incident radiation over a broad wavelength range and plugging that into the SB equation to get a temperature isn’t an incorrect application of the SB equation. It’s precisely how most IR thermometers, including pyrgeometers, work.

DeWitt Payne
January 25, 2012 4:57 pm

Richard M says:
January 25, 2012 at 2:48 pm

So none of the fits mean anything, Richard.
Willis, you are using a logical fallacy here. Just because there exists multiple fits does not mean there doesn’t exist a meaningful fit.
I’m not trying to assert one exists. I’m simply trying to investigate whether one might exist. One of the reasons is that Miskolczi has found something very similar (a maximum GHE) through other methods. Empirical ones at that. However, try not to be hasty. If it turns out to be nothing, as you have claimed, then that will become evident eventually.

Miskolczi’s results are indeed empirical. A lot of his observed relationships between fluxes are just that, observed, and are not exact relationships even then. But he then treats them as physical law with exact solutions.
The theory he derives is fundamentally flawed. He treats a constant as a variable and a variable as a constant as the need requires to get the equation he wants. The whole concept of a global average optical depth is flawed as well because clouds have an effectively infinite IR optical depth so the global average would also be infinite. So his τ is a mathematical construct with no real physical meaning. He then plugs it into what amounts to a somewhat more complex single slab atmosphere which has an upper limit of doubling the surface flux and claims that therefore the real greenhouse effect also has a limit of 2. See the Miskoloczi posts at Science of Doom for more detail.

Tilo Reber
January 25, 2012 4:59 pm

Willis: “You’ll have to define “meaningful fit” for me before I could comment on that.”
A meaningful fit would be one that could be used to correctly predict the temperature of other planets knowing only the atmospheric pressure and irradiation level. If N&Z have their physics correct, this should turn out to be the case. On the other hand, if you have done a curve fit that fits the data, but that is not based on correct physics, then it will break down as you look at more planets. Of course you could keep adjusting your fit. But your original fit would not have been meaningful. The point, again, is that four or five parameters could be a case of an overfit, or it could be a case of a correct fit. Let’s listen to their part two explanation and then decide if the way that they have done their math is consistent with the physical theory that they have explained. If they can give us good reason for their parameters being what they are, it may well be a “meaningful fit”.

Joel Shore
January 25, 2012 5:10 pm

Tilo Reber says:

Let’s listen to their part two explanation and then decide if the way that they have done their math is consistent with the physical theory that they have explained. If they can give us good reason for their parameters being what they are, it may well be a “meaningful fit”.

The only interesting question left at this point is if Nikolov and Zeller are going to continue this charade or whether at some point they will have enough intellectual integrity to admit their fundamental errors. Based on what we have seen so far, I am afraid that the wise betting money would not be on them doing the latter.

Tilo Reber
January 25, 2012 5:17 pm

Joel Shore: “The only interesting question left at this point is if Nikolov and Zeller are going to continue this charade or whether at some point they will have enough intellectual integrity to admit their fundamental errors.”
I’m not much interested in your opinions Joel. I’m still trying to get you to explain how the moon can maintain an average temperature “a few centimeters” below the surface that is 40 C warmer than the average surface temperature, as you explained earlier.

January 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 25, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Ned Nikolov says:
January 25, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Do you know how much of addition radiation is needed to actually raise the temperature of the Moon by 133K?? 14,800 W m-2 …
Thanks for the question, Ned. You might want to check your units. Watts per square metre is a FLOW of energy, not an AMOUNT of energy. As a result, you can never answer a question of “how much additional radiation is needed” with watts per square metre. You need watt-hours, or watt seconds (joules), or the like. Those are amounts of energy.
Next, the question as posed has no meaning. Presumably the moon will be radiating and losing energy as it is being heated. and to calculate the amount of radiation needed, you MUST specify the starting temperature. This is because of the T^4 relationship. Since you have not specified the starting temperature, your question is not answerable.
Finally, you have not specified how much of the moon we are heating. The top metre? The entire body of the moon? Since temperature change is inversely proportional to mass, we need to know that as well.
In summary, your question is unanswerable as posed, and your answer is impossible as stated.

Willis,
Where did you read ‘total energy’ in Ned’s question?
Solar irradiance is specified as power per unit area, which how he expressed his question.
He is saying that if you want to raise the surface temperature of the moon by 133K, then you’ll need to increase the irradiance by 14,800 W/m²
Do you really care what the total energy is, integrated over the whole Moon for some specified period of time?
I’m beginnning to see why you (and Joel) don’t seem to want to understand the N&Z theory. You seem to think they lack skills as physicists and so it just goes in one ear and out the other as nonsense. Am I correct?
😐

Joel Shore
January 25, 2012 5:31 pm

John Day says:

I’m beginnning to see why you (and Joel) don’t seem to want to understand the N&Z theory. You seem to think they lack skills as physicists and so it just goes in one ear and out the other as nonsense. Am I correct?
😐

No…It doesn’t go in one ear and out the other and we don’t want to not understand it. Willis and I in fact apparently understand Nikolov and Zeller’s work better than anybody else (including them). For example, most people read Section 2(B) of their paper and are apparently dazzled by the fact that they add convection and eliminate the radiative greenhouse effect. I look at it and say, “How amusing…They added convection into the model in a way that by their own statement is wrong (driven the atmosphere to an isothermal condition with height) and then marvel at the fact that this eliminates the greenhouse effect when they could have just read p. 148 of Ray Pierrehumbert’s book and known that the greenhouse effect would disappear if they adopted such an unphysical assumption.”
Some people look at their fit and marvel at the miracle. Willis and I actually endeavor to understand it and play around with the fit and test it.
So, I would say that it is exactly the opposite: The people here who marvel at their theory are the ones who don’t understand it. Those of us who understand it know exactly what is wrong with it.

Richard M
January 25, 2012 5:35 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 25, 2012 at 4:38 pm
Evidence? Evidence is observations. Facts. Data.

You mean like Miskolczi’s 230 observations over 25 years that all yield a constant optical depth?
What you have is a couple of people who think that the greenhouse effect is not possible, doesn’t work, and like that. I doubt greatly that you could give me the elevator speech for either of those theories … but you are willing to promote them.
Curious, that … but not evidence of any kind.

Looks like you’re guilty of what you so often blame others. Where I have “promoted them”? Shouldn’t you be quoting where I supposedly “promoted them”? At least that’s what you have chided others about numerous times.
The fact is I have asked them to try and find a reasonable physical basis for the relationship they have presented. How do you consider that to be “promoting them”? I have also stated I hadn’t been convinced that the GHE can be eliminated in any case where the surface temperature is raised above the incoming solar input. Now, please explain how that “promotes them”?
Unlike you, Willis, I’m willing to wait until more information is available before I commit to any position at all.

Richard M
January 25, 2012 5:45 pm

DeWitt Payne says:
January 25, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Miskolczi’s results are indeed empirical. A lot of his observed relationships between fluxes are just that, observed, and are not exact relationships even then. But he then treats them as physical law with exact solutions.

Nowhere have I stated anything about what Miskolczi theorized. My only reference was to the empirical data he discovered.
The theory he derives is fundamentally flawed …
From everything I’ve read I would have to agree. That is why I did not intend to refer to his theories, only his data. Maybe I should have used another phrase instead of “optical depth”. My point is the GHE appears to behave as if it is independent of the mix of GHGs. One way of viewing K&Z’s equation gets you to the same point. The GHE may have some kind of limiting physical basis.
Instead of just dismissing anything that may not be a complete theory, I’m trying to push people to think of ways that such a limiting effect could exist.

DeWitt Payne
January 25, 2012 5:55 pm

Richard M says:
January 25, 2012 at 5:35 pm

You mean like Miskolczi’s 230 observations over 25 years that all yield a constant optical depth?

No, they don’t. The optical depth of the observations varies all over the map. His constant optical depth is a calculated average of those observations. Again, those observations are all clear sky. The optical depth of a cloud covered sky is very large. But Miskolczi conveniently ignores that fact.

Joel Shore
January 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Tilo Reber says:

I’m not much interested in your opinions Joel. I’m still trying to get you to explain how the moon can maintain an average temperature “a few centimeters” below the surface that is 40 C warmer than the average surface temperature, as you explained earlier.

I already discussed this. It remains somewhat of a mystery as to whether the source that I cited that makes this claim is correct or not and what the reason for it is:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/22/unified-theory-of-climate-reply-to-comments/#comment-874447
At any rate, it is an interesting sidelight but hardly vital for the present discussion. If I was wrong on the point that the temperature somewhat below the surface would have a temperature representative of the fourth root of the average of the insolation rather than just the average of the insolation, then I was wrong. It has no bearing on the fundamental and profound errors with N&Z’s “theory”. I am not perfect…but unlike some others I admit when I may have been mistaken.

January 25, 2012 6:59 pm

John Day says:
January 25, 2012 at 5:20 pm
He is saying that if you want to raise the surface temperature of the moon by 133K, then you’ll need to increase the irradiance by 14,800 W/m²

Whereas what they should really do to raise by most of that 133K is to use a reasonable value for the parameter they have omitted which is responsible for the low mean value they get, namely the heat capacity of the surface.
I’m beginnning to see why you (and Joel) don’t seem to want to understand the N&Z theory. You seem to think they lack skills as physicists and so it just goes in one ear and out the other as nonsense. Am I correct?
They appear to lack the skill to understand the critical role of heat capacity in this model since they studiously ignore all mention of it when it is raised! It’s a nice trick really, omit a critical parameter in your model which greatly exaggerates the value of the parameter under discussion, then claim personal incredulity as to the possibility of the GHE being able to explain such a large ΔT, then back that up by quoting the measured LW power density as being inadequate, while of course knowing that the number you’re using is bogus!

Richard M
January 25, 2012 6:59 pm

DeWitt Payne says:
January 25, 2012 at 5:55 pm
[Richard M says:
January 25, 2012 at 5:35 pm
You mean like Miskolczi’s 230 observations over 25 years that all yield a constant optical depth?]
No, they don’t. The optical depth of the observations varies all over the map. His constant optical depth is a calculated average of those observations.
My understanding was the observation’s average stayed constant over the entire 25 years. In other words, the average itself did not vary over time. The average of the first few years did not vary after more observations. Is that incorrect?

January 25, 2012 7:49 pm

Richard M says: January 25, 2012 at 5:45 pm
“Nowhere have I stated anything about what Miskolczi theorized. My only reference was to the empirical data he discovered.”

Miskolczi produced no empirical data at all. He looked up a database of measured profiles of air temperature and pressure from balloon ascents. Absolutely no measurement of optical depth, or anything involving IR. That all came from his theory.

martin mason
January 25, 2012 7:56 pm

So much passion, willy waving and raging ego and yet it’s all ant f*cking with zero contribution to the real issues that face us over CAGW and zero relevance to the real world which some patently don’t inhabit. The other sad thing is that nobody outside of this small debating club is getting any message from this and the AGW industry must be rubbing its hands to see such bickering on a forum that has done so much to counter their propaganda by it’s unity.
Surely it is obvious that surface pressure has an impact on on near surface temperature, surely GHGs play some part and surely there are many other things which impact the reality of what we see in the chaotic real world which doesn’t have tall cylinders of atmosphere with silver wire connecting bottom to top and where thought experiments and elevator summaries don’t interest real people who are under massive threat from the AGW monster. The only thing obvious from this and other recent threads is that agenda driven people are totally incapable of listening to what anybody else has to say. I for one am sick of this almost infantile bickering and am really thinking of abandoning this site from which I’ve learned so much over the years

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