A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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January 15, 2012 12:00 pm

“conduction will simply cause the gas molecules to reach the surface temperature of the sphere, and no higher.”
Increasing conduction relative to radiation ( which is what increased density at the surface achieves) will reduce the rate of energy flow through the system and result in a warming effect because total system energy content rises given a stable energy input.
Due to the dry adiabatic lapse rate the temperature is not uniform through the atmospheric column. The molecules at the surface are warmer than the average for the atmosphere.
The conductive interchange at the surface is skewed by the dry adiabatic lapse rate in favour of an increased conductive interchange at the surface for a raised surface equilibrium temperature..
In the case of the Earth some 240 Wm2 comes in. The surface reaches a temperature that would require 390Wm2 to go out to space but only 240Wm2 escapes at equilibrium.
The difference of 150Wm2 is attributable to the conductive and radiative interchange between surface and atmosphere. As Willis said, the atmosphere decouples the surface from space.
If there were no GHGs then the conductive interchange would be all we have and on the basis of the N & Z data the surface temperature can be calculated accurately without including a radiative component.
Thus on Earth the radiative component gets dealt with by non radiative energy transfer processes.
That means that for a planet without GHGs as per Willis’s proposed model the conductive surface/atmosphere interchange would be sufficient to keep the surface temperature much as it is now.
Does that qualify as an elevator speech ?

anna v
January 15, 2012 12:03 pm

Jonathan Jones says:
January 15, 2012 at 8:04 am

Anna V,
You say “Thus one cannot have matter as we know it of a given temperature not radiating in some frequencies.” Consider a sample of helium gas at standard temperature and pressure (roughly 270K, 1atm). At what frequencies do you think it will radiate? What transitions will cause this? And what are the relevant transition dipole moments?

Given the emissivity of helium it will have a gray body radiation spectrum appropriate to its temperature . Gray body is Stefan–Boltzmann law times emissivity. Small, I do not dispute it, but still there.
My point was that the thought experiment that Willis claims proves energy violation cannot be carried out with the physical matter we have. That’s all.

Kevin Kilty
January 15, 2012 12:07 pm

Kevin Kilty says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:09 am
Phil’s Dad says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:01 am
I’m not sure about lapse rate warming being the answer as lapse rate cooling in the convection cycle would tend to cancel it out however… does gravity (which can do work) add energy to the equation such that radiation in + work done by gravity = radiation out? (Where the heck does gravity come from anyway?)
Let’s put this gravitational work in its proper perspective…
[SNIP: Let’s not. Lets stick to the topic of the thread. -w.]

Well, it was on the topic of the thread which is gravity, work done by gravity, etc.. Haven’t you, who ever you are, gotten a little liberal with the scissors?

Alan Wilkinson
January 15, 2012 12:18 pm

Paul Dennis, I thought some more about the isothermal equilibrium postulate and concluded it is also unphysical since gravity would then be unable to prevent the escape of gas molecules at the top of atmosphere resulting in continuous loss of matter and energy. This is the difference between Willis’s model and a closed adiabatic column in gravity.
So I don’t think either the isothermal or isentropic models fit.

January 15, 2012 12:24 pm

I don’t see anything in either of those that says “all substances are required to emit thermal radiation until they are at absolute zero”, or even “all substances are required to emit thermal radiation at all temperatures”.

All objects are required to emit photons until they are at absolute zero.
Now you have a quote. Put it to use.

Paul Dennis
January 15, 2012 12:30 pm

Alan Wilkinson,
well of course there is a continuous loss of matter and energy at the top of the atmosphere because there will always be some molecules and atoms with the necessary escape velocity as a function of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Though only a very tiny fraction of molecules will have the necessary energy and the rate of loss will be small.
However, I do agree with you Alan that I haven’t given enough consideration to the boundary conditions at the top of the atmosphere and that the difference between Willis’ model and a ‘closed’ adiabatic column might well be significant. I’m finding the discussion very interesting and it’s posing some interesting problems that require some thought. Thanks for thinking about and responding to this.

January 15, 2012 12:37 pm

Willis said:
“But in my example, there is no compression going on. There is no variation in pressure at all. ”
and over at tallbloke’s
A Watts said:
“As far as I’m concerned, the idea that gravity provides energy input (beyond the one time initial compression during attraction and capture) is simply a misinterpretation.”
I’m amazed that so many modern scientists have that idea.
I learned decades ago that gravity is a constant force all pervasive and always acting.
The only reason we don’t all fall to the centre of the Earth is that the ground is denser than our bodies.
But for gravity every molecule of the planet right down to the core would float off into space.
At every moment our every movement and every movement of every atom molecule or elementary particle is being opposed by the constant gravitational field
It is not akin to a single pressurisation. It is akin to continuously renewed pressurisation and every time anything moves or is prevented from moving by a denser object work is being done and heat energy produced.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are preserved because the heat energy is produced from the change in momentum of molecules caused by movement within the gravitational field.
Heat isn’t produced by gravity itself but by the changes that the gravitational field imposes on matter moving through it.
A Watts said:
“Shut off the energy, and the model planet goes back to steady state equilibrium with the atmosphere clinging like paint again.”
Maybe so but a force is still being applied constantly drawing the ‘paint’ towards the centre of the Earth. That movement is blocked by the density of the ground beneath but the gravitational attraction is still present and to the extent that the ground restrains the paint from falling further an imperceptible amount of heat energy is being constantly produced.
Is that really a surprise to everyone but me ?

hmccard
January 15, 2012 12:38 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm
hmccard says:
January 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm
… and leave the moderating to Willis, eh? (Or is this a new moderating policy?) Although I have been a lurker here at WUWT for several years, I don’t know what the average number of snips per thread is for your blog. However, IMO, the number of snips by Willis in this thread must be at least a 6-sigma outlier. FWIW, the number of self-snips on this thread suggests to me that others share my disappointment.
Willis, I prefer to use the stairs …
I don’t get this complaint. I said that, contrary to my usual practice, I was going to snip this thread to try to keep it on course, to prevent from wandering around the entire universe. I have done so, and now you want to complain that I’m snipping posts … what part of ‘I’m going to snip posts’ was unclear to you?
w
Willis, I was replying to Anthony’s comment. In my comment directed to you, I said that I prefer to use the stairs.

Paul Dennis
January 15, 2012 12:43 pm

Willis,
I’ve posed the question about dry adiabatic lapse rate. I think Roy Spencer has and Anthony too though neither explicitly. In your model the planet surface is uniformly heated and there is no loss of energy from the top of the atmosphere. Under such conditions convection is supressed and the dry adiabat temperature profile cannot be established. My understanding is you think that the lapse rate of temperature can be established without atmospheric movement. I’m not sure this is the case. The texts I’ve seen all suggest that convection is required to establish the dry adiabat lapse rate. e.g. www-as.harvard.edu/education/brasseur_jacob/ch2_brasseurjacob_Jan11.pdf page 13.
“An atmosphere left to evolve without exchanging energy with its surroundings will eventually achieve an adiabatic lapse rate due to the motion of air parcels up and down.”
In the absence of convection then I think the profile should evolve to one of a constant temperature. I’m prepared to be proven wrong on this but haven’t seen a convincing statement that the dry lapse rate can be established without atmospheric movement.

January 15, 2012 12:48 pm

Willis, you insulted me on the basis of a complete misreading of my post:
Stephen Wilde says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:41 am
“It is a rambling inaccurate claim that the rate at which heat is conducted varies by the density of a gas. ”
Actually it isn’t.
It is a claim that if conduction increases relative to radiation then the rate of energy flow through the system declines.
Radiation leapfrogs across non GHGs at the speed of light but conduction from molecule to molecule of a non GHG is slower and the more dense the non GHGs the more radiation is replaced by conduction.
Can you rebut that for me ?
Please do me the courtesy of a considered and polite response.

January 15, 2012 12:51 pm

Stark Dickflüssig said January 15, 2012 at 12:24 pm

All objects are required to emit photons until they are at absolute zero.

And where in Resnick & Halliday (or other physics text) will I find this quote, or its equivalent?

January 15, 2012 12:55 pm

As a very slight aside:
I’d like being able to use gravity in some manner that would provide for vitually unlimited energy.
Cavorite, anyone?

Paul Dennis
January 15, 2012 12:55 pm

Stephen,
I think Willis’ model is correct, bar one aspect which is that of the dry adiabatic lapse rate. I think that in the model the atmosphere will rise to a uniform temperature which is that of the planetary surface. This atmosphere is unable to radiate energy because it is composed exclusively of non-GHG molecules. Thus at equilibrium all the energy is radiated from the planetary surface. There is no conduction of heat through the atmosphere since the surface and atmospheric column are all at the same temperature.
I don’t know if this answers your questions but I’m satisfied that Willis’ reductio ad absurbum approach provides a proof that gravitational effects cannot raise the temperature of the planetary surface.

January 15, 2012 12:59 pm

OT, but someone above mentioned an isolated parcel of non-GHG remaining at a constant higher than 3K temperature since it can’t radiate photons. In the real Universe it will lose heat as particles of rock move through it by conduction to those particles. Heat death of the universe is slow, but inexorable.

anna v
January 15, 2012 1:00 pm

Robert Brown says:
January 15, 2012 at 7:54 am
Anna v :motion in electric fields generates radiation and this radiation gets out of the solid at the frequencies where the solid is transparent and thus the solid cools because energy is lost.

Robert Brown:
In a solid the radiation gets out at the surface, and comes out at the frequencies where the solid is opaque — you have it exactly backwards. Atoms or molecules absorb or emit symmetrically, or nearly so (the laser is an example of an exception, but requires special preparation and states that line up “just right” with an external driver). The whole point of blackbody radiation is that if a solid is a “perfect absorber” — a black body — it is also a “perfect emitter” in all frequencies and hence generates a BB spectrum if it has a given temperature as derived by Planck, subject to his quantization hypothesis.
But you say it yourself: “if a solid is a “perfect absorber” — a black body — it is also a “perfect emitter” .
I was thinking on the production of the photon side.

January 15, 2012 1:12 pm

Paul,
I think Willis is right about the dry adiabatic lapse rate and that you are right about movement being required to achieve it.
The important point is that it must form with or without GHGs. That is the nub of the issue.

January 15, 2012 1:13 pm

LO! thepompousgit maketh a great clamouring, as the tinkling of brass upon January 15, 2012 at 12:51 pm

Stark Dickflüssig said January 15, 2012 at 12:24 pm
All objects are required to emit photons until they are at absolute zero.
And where in Resnick & Halliday (or other physics text) will I find this quote, or its equivalent?

Are you saying it’s untrue, or are you just too lazy to do a text search on the single largest collection of human knowledge in all of history?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=objects+emit+photons+absolute+zero

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