Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
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steveta_uk says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:48 am
“Exactly why do the IR photons “slow down” due to increased density of an IR-transparent gas?”
Do you know how Cherenkov radiation is produced?
Do you know how Cherenkov radiation is produced?
Yes – not like this 😉
“I was with you until the last point. The dry adiabatic lapse rate is a result of energy considerations. It does not depend in any way on conduction.”
Conduction involves energy considerations.
The dry adiabatic lapse rate results in a higher temperature at the surface. Since there are no GHGs the energy comes from sun to surface and is then supplied to the air by conduction. Conduction supplies the energy in the gas above the surface.
“No, that is the dry adiabatic lapse rate. It is not a “gravity induced greehouse effect”, there’s no GHG’s, remember?”
Any greenhouse effect there may be from GHGs is seperate from the gravitationally induced effect. Both may be validly termed greenhouse effects but from differing causes. I don’t think the issues can be resolved without recognising both.
Once you accepted the existence of the dry adiabatic lapse rate in a non GHG atmosphere you accepted the gravitationally induced component.
“First, there is no energy going either into or out of the atmosphere in my example in the head post”
That only applies AFTER equilibrium has been reached and I don’t disagree with you there. However any change in solar input or atmospheric mass of non GHGs will result in a change in equilibrium temperature.
“But if it does the surface is radiating to space more than it receives, which violates conservation of energy.”
The surface isn’t radiating to space more than it receives. The conductive energy acquired by the non GHG atmosphere is stored there and bounced back to and fro between surface and atmosphere by conduction.The lapse rate causes the warmest air molecules to be in contact with the surface and because those molecules are at a higher temperature than the average for the atmosphere they feed energy back to the surface more than if the atmosphere were at a uniform temperature throughout. That should cause a higher surface equilibrium temperature and the atmospheric storage reduces the outflow to space to match solar input at equilibrium.
“the fact that the atmosphere absorbs some of the surface radiation decouples the surface from space, and allows its temperature to rise without breaking any natural laws.”
Exactly, you got it. And all without GHGs.
“Exactly why do the IR photons “slow down” due to increased density of an IR-transparent gas?”
The IR photons don’t slow down.
Instead the incoming solar shortwave remains longer as kinetic energy passing between colliding molecules before it is released out again as IR.
johndo9 says:
January 15, 2012 at 4:19 am
Thanks, John. That’s the beauty of my proof. It doesn’t depend on the method.
It also doesn’t matter what physical situation Jelbring uses to explain his hypothetical “Jelbring Effect”. Yes, his example for explaining his claim is different than my example, but his choice of example is irrelevant.
The point is that he says his effect can raise the surface temperature of a planet with a transparent, non-GHG atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
As my proof shows, there is no possible way to do that. My proof doesn’t say that Jelbring’s method for doing so violates conservation of energy. It says that ANY method for doing so violates conservation of energy.
So my proof is very, very relevant to Jelbring’s claims.
Regarding you elevator speech, you say:
But … but … you are the first person here to say the N&Z hypothesis requires GHGs to work. No one else has said that. Hang on … OK, from the N&Z first paragraph, my emphasis:
That means they claim it works WITHOUT GHGS. It also means that you are just guessing, you don’t understand the N&Z theory either.
Is there anyone out there who does understand N&Z? Still looking … since you mention Astonerii above let’s look at his elevator speech:
Well, we’re talking about how it might work in the simplified planet above, not the earth, so bad start.
Again, we’re not talking about the earth. If we were, Astonerii would have to include radiation and latent heat.
This is wrong, and it has been pointed out many times as being wrong. Diatomic gases do not emit in the IR. You see why I skipped this one, John. Because it is demonstrably and provably wrong, for reasons that were established way up-thread.
Huh?
I love this last one. “The lapse rate comes into effect and causes the added warmth at ground level”. That is one of the most vague statements yet. HOW does the lapse rate warm the surface?
And no, the lapse rate is NOT “determined by the mass of the atmosphere”, that’s airy-fairy nonsense. It is completely determined by the force of gravity and Cp, the specific heat of the atmosphere at constant pressure. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MASS OF THE ATMOSPHERE.
So John, your preferred elevator speech is a mess, with a number of scientific statements which are not only untrue, but have been verified as untrue in this very thread before the elevator speech. So somebody’s not paying attention.
w.
steveta_uk says:
January 15, 2012 at 11:01 am
“Yes – not like this ;)”
My point was that the speed of light is dependent upon the material through which it flows, based on the material’s index of refraction.
A million suns which provides 240 per square meter will give world which has earth like atmosphere a temperature of 255 K [-18 C]
Earth at sun distance receives about 1300 watts.
A million worlds which provide about 1300 watts per square meter will give world which has earth like atmosphere the temperature will not not exceed 390 K [116 C].
The reason why earth isn’t 116 C is because it’s a sphere and rotates- it can radiate 4 times the amount of energy it receives.
So earth will warm up until it reach a temperature in which it radiates the same energy as it receives. The possible range is -18 C to around 110 C
Whereas with the million suns at 240 watts per square meter is in the range is not more than -18 C.
So the question isn’t want warms earth, the question is what cools earth. The atmosphere prevent 300 watt of the 1300 watts from reaching the surface- this knocks down highest temperature to below 370 K [90 C]. Next, convection lowers this highest temperature down by around 10 C.
And these temperatures are observable on earth.
Another factor is clouds. Another factor is the spherical shape- or hemisperical shape- at higher
latitudes the sun never provides 1000 watts per square meter.
End of elevator speech.
anna v says:
January 15, 2012 at 4:21 am
Anna, certainly we can have such matter. For example, argon is a monoatomic gas. As a result, it is invisible to electromagnetic radiation, and neither absorbs nor emits.
Diatomic gases are similar. O2 and N2 do not emit in the the IR region corresponding to the kinds of temperatures we are discussing. So although they may radiate/absorb at high temperatures, at the temperatures in question they are essentially perfectly transparent.
So contrary to your claim, depending on the temperature both monoatomic and diatomic gases may neither emit nor absorb at all.
Which is why some gases are called “greenhouse gases” and some are not, because some are transparent to IR.
w.
Dr Brown,
If you’re still following the discussion there is another hypothesis that I saw at Tallbloke’s that also leads to reducing the impact of GHGs on temperature.
http://declineeffect.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Pot-Lid-Sep-2011-v2.1.pdf
Too much complicated, again. Surface is heated by a sunlight, and atmosphere (99% nitrogen and oxygen) is warmed from the surface by conduction and convection. Nitrogen and oxygen thus indirectly absorbs the energy of Sun. The higher density, the more molecules kicking the thermometer, which shows higher temperature. Very few molecules in the atmosphere (like Mars) – theoretical and blackbody temperature = 310K. Does not matter, that Mars thin atmosphere has 6,000 ppm of CO2.
Roger Clague says:
January 15, 2012 at 4:43 am
This is a common misconception. True, heat only flows from hot to cold.
But radiant energy (which is not heat) just radiates, and is absorbed by whatever it might hit regardless of temperature.
w.
Robert Brown said @ur momisugly January 15, 2012 at 8:26 am
As I understand it, while CO2 is perfectly opaque over a range of frequencies, at the upper and lower bounds absorption/emission is less. Thus there is a small change in the atmosphere’s ability to absorb/emit as CO2 concentration rises above current levels. When I first became interested in such things, I too was initially puzzled as a back of envelope calc showed that only a 100 metre column of atmosphere was required for total opacity. Hans Erren who helped my understanding in this linked to a satellite photograph that showed Earth emitting some small amount of radiation at these boundaries.
Louise says:
January 15, 2012 at 4:46 am
Free and open debate, restricted to a specific subject. I told people I would snip off-topic posts. Now, you are all shocked because I did so.
w.
Louise says:
January 15, 2012 at 4:48 am
No, you have not. I have snipped off-topic posts as I said I would. Perhaps some folks think they were inappropriately snipped, and I have invited them (twice from memory) to repost if they feel they were snipped in error. So sue me.
My dear, there are no comments like yours, so the answer is none.
w.
Peter Czerna says:
January 15, 2012 at 5:14 am
Peter, you are doing exactly what I want you (and everyone) to do, which is serious science. My thanks.
w.
wayne says:
January 15, 2012 at 5:46 am
Wayne, what was it you wanted me to apologize for? I don’t mind apologizing … but what did I do to you that needs an apology?
w.
measurement of night time downward radiation
http://www.patarnott.com/atms749/pdf/LongWaveIrradianceMeas.pdf
basically (irradiance in watts/sqm
night1 275
day1 315
night2 290
day2 360
night3 300
day3 410
night4 340
day4 variable ~
night5 340
day5 390
night6 380
day6 375
night7 360
day7 360
night8 270
day8 300
So we know the solar output received in the dark is 0
We know that O2 and N2 have very very very little thermal radiation.
So where does all that downward radiation come from (at least 270W/sqm)
It can only be from GHGs.
During the day we receive about 380W/sqm
So the 270W/sqm is additional to the solar irradiance.
So the average night day temp difference is less than expected (no sideways conduction/wind required)
tallbloke says:
January 15, 2012 at 5:58 am
Thanks, TB. In your considerations, please note that my proof applies to all methods of raising the surface temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature with a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere. So your objection, that the method and the example Jelbring used to explain his theorem is different from my example in the proof, doesn’t matter.
All the best,
w.
Some more grist for the mill. We all know that you do not have to dig very far, nor swim very low, before temperatures plummet. The Earth itself violates the SB conditions because it is not uniformly heated within, and is continually conducting/convecting heat down in daylight, and giving it up again at night.
All right, I’m going to do a Willis here, and declare victory. I am not proclaiming that the GHG hypothesis is wrong, or even mostly wrong. But, clearly the KO intended by using SB to “prove” that it must be the case is just a pat on the cheek.
A) SB holds only for an ideal radiating body at thermodynamic equilibrium.
B) The Earth’s surface is never at thermodynamic equilibrium.
Hence, the SB argument is riddled with holes. QED.
Willis,
Your patience has been astounding! All the complaints about snipping, when you initally stated you would snip, and to what criteria you would snip. It was all up front in the original post.
The most disappointing thing about the whole thread is the number of posters, who, at least as I recall, have previously been able to respond coherently to a clearly posted challenge and who have subsequently in this post looked like goats in loco weed.
Students who responded in such a fashion to a hypothetical question in our theoretical physics oral examinations would have been retaking the entire examination in another six months – instant fail.
Perhaps thinking about layering the gas molecules a layer at a time around the sphere would help people understand that conduction is how the molecules gain energy from the sphere, and how, over time, the original steadystate energy balance is reasserted. Regardless of how many mono-atomic layers you add to the original layer, conduction will simply cause the gas molecules to reach the surface temperature of the sphere, and no higher.
Ian W says:
January 15, 2012 at 6:09 am
No idea what you’re talking about, you need to provide a quotation of my words. I said nothing about non-GHG gases not being able to be above absolute zero.
Huh? Of course the surface can heat the atmosphere. In my example it does so until the atmosphere reaches equilibrium. After that, there is no exchange between the surface and the atmosphere.
Again, no idea what you’re talking about, you need to provide a quotation of my words so we can know where you think I went wrong.
Well, no. Temperature is not the sum of the KE as you claim. It is defined as m/3k (Vrms)^2, where m is molecular mass, Vrms is the root-mean-square velocity, and k is the Boltzmann constant. Since KE is 1/2 m(Vrms)^2, this means that
T = 2* KErms / 3k
Note that there is no “sum of the kinetic energy” term in there anywhere, so your initial, starting claim is untrue.
When you remedy that and start again, we can talk about it further. Thank you for at least giving it a shot, not everyone has had the nerve to do that.
w.
Vince Causey says:
January 15, 2012 at 6:14 am
Thanks, Vince. Why is that conclusion absurd? There’s no physical law that I know of that says that things are required to radiate until they reach absolute zeros.
w.
Bryan,
The definition of a neutral atmosphere is one in which the local lapse rate for a particular parcel of air is the same as the lapse rate for the environment (the DALR). Therefore there are no residual forces on the parcel, no convection occurs and the atmosphere is stable. However, that doesn’t say how the temperature profile was intitially set up which is presumeably by convection of the atmosphere prior to the establishment of neutral conditions.
I’m going to spend some time studying this because I’m coming at this very much from a first principles approach rather than as someone who has studied these things and am very much aware I may have misunderstood some concepts. Thank you for pointing out this informative link and discussing with me.
Phil. says:
January 15, 2012 at 8:05 am
From Wikipedia:
Triple point of Nitrogen = 12.53 kPa
Triple point of Oxygen = 0.152 kPa