A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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Stephen Wilde
January 15, 2012 9:45 am

“What two forces are acting for particles in any orbit? I only count one — gravity!”
Plus escape energy makes two.
In fact ANY energy in a molecule causes movement that counts as a second force interacting with gravity.
Are you getting lost in semantic detail and losing the bigger picture ?

Richard M
January 15, 2012 9:57 am

Dr. Brown,
Here’s a paper that discusses some of the issues.
http://climateclash.com/2011/06/21/does-the-tropopause-limit-carbon-dioxide-heat-trapping/
They get a reduced GHE to about .7C per doubling of CO2. I still think this is too high but the details are beyond my capabilities.

gbaikie
January 15, 2012 9:58 am

So, it seems to me the million worlds providing 240 watts, can not without some kind magic increase surface temperature above -18 C.
And therefore taking sun the energy energy and dividing by 4 is wrong.
The million suns are providing a million times more energy but do not increase temperature
above -18 C.
Whereas one sun providing 500 watts per meter could have temperatures above -18 C

wayne
January 15, 2012 10:02 am

Stephen Wilde says:
January 15, 2012 at 9:38 am
wayne, most molecules aren’t in orbit at all.
They constantly vibrate with kinetic energy, fly about with convection everywhere and throughout all those movements of whatever type they are working against but within the constraints of gravity.
There are more molecules nearer the surface due to gravity, more collisions and conduction near the surface due to gravity, slower transfer of energy through the system near the surface due to the extra density caused by gravity.
If one slows down the rate of energy transfer through anything then the equilibrium temperature will rise and the mass of non GHGS will achieve just that They will do so in relation to density which is gravitationally induced.
I am astonished how far this thread has gone away from the basic realities.
— — —
Just trying to help. You were speaking of a molecule leaving the atmosphere and being pulled back into the atmosphere by gravity and you were speaking of the work done. I see no work if the beginning and ending altitudes are identical and that molecule didn’t hit another molecule in the meantime. That molecule IS REALLY IN ORBIT (high eccentricy squashed orbit) during its short excusion so yes, the vis viva equation (conservation of energy) exactly appies here and yes, no work is performed. I’ll get into this matter of orbit mechanics later if you wish, maybe better later at talkshop.
Take Dr. Brown up on his offer of the books, I am. I always find new or forgotten things in each book even though I am pretty well versed already.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:12 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 15, 2012 at 2:46 am
“I didn’t say the individual pieces are at equilibrium, Bart, I don’t even know what that would mean. I said, and you quoted, that it is the system that is at equilibrium.”
Aye yi yi. You are claiming SB consistent radiation from your surface. The surface is exchanging heat with a conductive and convective atmosphere. It is therefore NOT in thermodynamic equilibrium. Fail.
If you do not get it now, I suppose you will not get it. As my old EE prof used to fondly admonish the class, “if you do not understand (fill in the blank), you should drop the class.”

willb
January 15, 2012 10:17 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 15, 2012 at 12:13 am

Whoa, whoa, whoa. The atmosphere is GHG-free. How does the released energy radiate anywhere, when the atmosphere has no GHGs, and as a result can’t radiate in the IR? I fear your explanation dies there …

Willis, thanks for responding to my attempt at an elevator speech. Your comment above refers to the following statement I had made:
Some of the radiating energy from the released latent heat is directed downward through the gaseous, IR-transparent atmosphere and is absorbed by the earth.
Although the atmosphere has no GHGs, my argument for this statement is as follows:
• As the non-GHG gases rise, they will cool.
• When they cool sufficiently, they will go through a phase change.
• A phase change (such as going from gas to liquid) means the molecules have dropped down to a lower energy state.
• When this happens, photons are released. It is irrelevant whether the gas is GHG or non-GHG. The release of photons is required for energy balance to counteract the drop in molecular energy from the phase change.
• These released photons are the radiating latent heat energy in my statement above.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:19 am

wayne says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:02 am
“That molecule IS REALLY IN ORBIT (high eccentricy squashed orbit) during its short excusion so yes, the vis viva equation (conservation of energy) exactly appies here and yes, no work is performed.”
You are 100% correct here. However, work is performed when that molecule is first energized (launched into orbit) and, upon collision with another particle, that work energy is exchanged. I’m not involved in your argument with Stephen – haven’t read enough of it and am wary of Stephen’s loose parlance – just trying to help facilitate your debate to focus on rigorous concepts.

Jeff Hagen
January 15, 2012 10:20 am

Mr. (Dr.?) Eschenbach,
With the stipulation that I am not familiar with the context of this discussion outside of your post nor how it relates to the debates regarding climate science, I have a potential thought about your question. Noted as well that I am not a scientist, but only an engineer. Apologies up front as well for not having read through the voluminous replies to your post before responding, so perhaps the following has already been addressed.
The core issue as I see it is that your hypothesis implicitly assumes that the only significant thermal coupling between the solid body and the gaseous atmosphere of the idealized planetary body in question is via radiation mechanisms. Admittedly without reference to any actual sources of data, it seems to me that we should intuitively assume that the conductive coupling between the surface of the solid body and the adjacent atmospheric gas will be a sufficient factor to noticeably affect the overall system balance. Introducing the presence of the gravity field to the question will cause a convective transfer mechanism within the gaseous atmosphere itself that should further enhance the effectiveness of the conductive coupling between solid and gas at the surface, thus further increasing the influence of the conductive component of coupling between the solid body and the atmosphere relative to the radiative coupling component.
In other words, the hot ground will warm adjacent cooler air, or hot air will warm adjacent cooler ground through direct contact at the molecular level and gravity will physically move hotter air away from the surface and cooler air to the surface so as to maintain a higher temperature differential and therefore more effective conductive coupling at the solid to gaseous interface at the surface and to distribute the energy more effectively throughout the atmospheric column that by internal conductive transfer within the atmospheric gas alone.
I believe that introducing the conductive and convective energy transfer mechanisms is within the bounds of your question as stated.
The conclusion is that even if we assume a perfectly transparent atmosphere with no radiative coupling between solid and gas and no direct solar heating of the gas, there is still a thermal coupling mechanism that introduces energy to the atmosphere. It is my assumption (without data) that this component will be substantial enough to have a noticeable impact on the balance of the idealized system in question.
I have not thought through clearly how this explanation explains the theories you cited as I have not read the full context of the broader question.
One thought to consider is that the solar energy absorbed into the atmosphere by the aforementioned conductive coupling will cause expansion of the atmospheric volume. As the atmosphere goes through day / night cycles, it will go through expansion and contraction cycles that could be considered as mechanical work against the gravity field that creates energy absorbed back into the solid body, thus raising it’s temperature above the minimum due to radiative solar heating alone. In other words, the gas warmed on the day side can not radiate back to space since it is perfectly transparent and thus can only cool by reheating the solid body, thus warming the night side. There will also be friction effects within the convective gas flow and within the warming and cooling solid body itself to consider. However, I am not sure if the day / night cycle is a permissible consideration within your stipulation of an evenly distributed, constant solar radiation.
Another thought to consider is that with the energy coupling to the atmosphere, the effective size of the absorptive body can be considered as larger than the solid body alone for purposes of the net energy balance. In other words, because some of the energy absorbed by the solid body is transferred into the transparent atmosphere, the solid body can absorb more radiative energy than it could were no atmosphere present. The net effect would be that the solid body is apparently absorbing an amount of radiation equivalent to a larger solid body, thus increasing its net energy balance above what it should be for perfect emissivity the actual surface area of the solid body and thereby causing its temperature to be elevated above the theoretical value of the solid body in a vacuum. Because the atmosphere is assumed to be perfectly transparent and thus unable to radiate, the presence of the atmosphere does not introduce any additional capacity for energy rejection. That is, within the ground rules of your question, introduction of the atmosphere permits a net planetary absorption of energy equivalent to a planet with a larger solid body, but maintains a net planetary emission equivalent to the actual size of the solid body, thereby skewing the net energy balance of the planet upward. The presence of the gravity field serves to more effectively distribute the energy throughout the atmosphere than gaseous conduction alone, thus further enhancing the affect of the atmosphere on the net energy balance. This explanation I believe does fit within the your stipulation of an evenly distributed, constant solar radiation. Again though, I have not looked at any data to see if it is a sufficient explanation for the values cited. Perhaps someone more educated than I on the relevant subjects can address whether or not this is a sufficient explanation.
Interesting question. Hopefully these thoughts are of some use to you even if not correct or not directly responsive to your question.

Jeff Hagen
Reply to  Jeff Hagen
January 15, 2012 10:31 am

Of course, I forgot to continue the thought that once equilibrium is reached, it doesn’t matter if the energy is distributed through the atmosphere by conduction or convection, the total will be the same. It is still necessary to introduce consideration of gravity though in order to keep the atmosphere from flying away from the planet. Without gravity, we would have to consider the energy conductively absorbed into the atmosphere as causing the atmosphere to depart the planet and thus not reaching equilibrium until the solid body was again in vacuum and thus violating the assumed conditions. Perhaps that is what was meant by taking gravity into consideration in the original theories?

Paul Dennis
January 15, 2012 10:23 am

Bart,
the surface in Willis’ thought experiment is exchanging heat with a conductive and ‘potentially’ convective medium, a thin, non-GHG atmosphere. However, the heat input in Willis’ model is uniform everywhere at the boundary between the surface and atmosphere. Therefore, there will be no convection. As the atmosphere is non-GHG it won’t lose energy by radiation loss at it’s upper surface (however the upper surface is defined). Thus it will heat up by conduction to the surface temperature. Equilibrium will be established when the atmosphere reaches the surface (Stefan-Boltzmann) and has a uniform temperature throughout. At least that’s my reading of Willis’ thought experiment.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:25 am

The only effect of gravity in all of this is that it effectively forms the constrained space in which atmospheric molecules interact. It does no net work. This is very basic.

Jeff Hagen
Reply to  Bart
January 15, 2012 10:58 am

Bart says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:25 am
“The only effect of gravity in all of this is that it effectively forms the constrained space in which atmospheric molecules interact. It does no net work. This is very basic.”
Agreed. That’s essentially what I was trying to say in my reply to myself. (My apologies to all for not doing a better job of editing my original post before posting.)
If we assume as stipulated that the solar radiation is constant and uniform in time and space and we assume having reached a steady state, gravity is not adding any work. The catch is that if we don’t consider gravity then to reach a steady state we have to assume that the atmosphere has continued to absorb energy through convection until it has expanded to the point that it is effectively removed from the picture, thus departing from the core question. Without being familiar with the theories questions by the original post, I assume this is what they meant by taking gravity into consideration.
I still think that the core business here is that the question as stated can not be addressed purely on the basis of radiation, but must take into consideration conduction between solid and gas as well.

gbaikie
January 15, 2012 10:28 am

gbaikie says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:22 pm
“[SNIP: gbaikie, either give us your elevator speech or falsify my model, your ramblings go nowhere. w.]”
Well that post explained that earth with 10 times the gravity in a million sun world, would have
a much denser atmosphere and the air molecules would move slower than on earth.
And the temperature from the million sun which give 240 watts per square can not exceed -18 C.
So sun providing million times more energy than the sun, does not heat a planet as much as our sun does it earth distance- obviously our moon’s daytime temperature exceeds 120 C.
With million suns providing 240 watts per square meter the Moon would not get above -18 C.
Put a world 10 gees at earth distance from the sun with same amount atmosphere as earth with
no greenhouse gases and the average temperature would exceed earth’s average temperature.
And also Neptune doesn’t even receive 100 watts per square meter from the Sun, but exceeds Venus’s temperature- due to high gravity and large atmosphere.

Stephen Wilde
January 15, 2012 10:30 am

Sorry to give the impression that there is any sort of ‘argument’ with wayne or Dr. Brown for that matter.
I am aware that my parlance is a bit loose for the experienced scientists here but I’m doing my best and picking up a lot along the way.
The only thing I would ask is that readers look past my parlance where it is weak and at the concept I am trying to express.
At some point the conclusions to all this are going to have to be readily comprehensible to the general public so a merging of mytype of style and the more rigorous statements is going to be necessary at some point.
Willis, I have reposted at:
Stephen Wilde says:
January 15, 2012 at 3:36 am
If it doesn’t make sense to you then there is little else I can add.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:31 am

Paul Dennis says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:23 am
Bart,
Therefore, there will be no convection.
I know, but I left the term in there because conduction is not as powerful an effect, and the real world, to which we will return someday I suppose, has powerful convective action going on.
Equilibrium will be established when the atmosphere reaches the surface (Stefan-Boltzmann) and has a uniform temperature throughout.
There will always be a temperature gradient. There will always be a lapse rate. There is no equilibrium possible.

Paul Dennis
January 15, 2012 10:39 am

Willis,
you are absolutely right about thermal conductivity of gases. There is much confusion about thermal conductivity throughout this thread and I think much of it comes from peoples every day experience with vacuum flasks in which they understand that reducing the pressure in the cavity between the walls of a flask reduces the thermal conductivity. I fact the thermal conductivity does not reduce until the mean free path of molecules is greater than the distance between the inner and outer walls of the flask. A high vacuum is required for most flasks for this to be achieved. What does this mean for an atmosphere. It means that the thermal conductivity is constant irrespective of pressure/density as you have pointed out.

Stephen Wilde
January 15, 2012 10:41 am

“It is a rambling inaccurate claim that the rate at which heat is conducted varies by the density of a gas. ”
Actually it isn’t.
It is a claim that if conduction increases relative to radiation then the rate of energy flow through the system declines.
Radiation leapfrogs across non GHGs at the speed of light but conduction from molecule to molecule of a non GHG is slower and the more dense the non GHGs the more radiation is replaced by conduction.
Can you rebut that for me ?

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:42 am

Jeff Hagen says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:20 am
“As the atmosphere goes through day / night cycles…”
Your post shows you are assembling all the pieces properly. However, I believe Willis has enforced uniform heating without day/night cycles in an attempt to form some basis from which to extrapolate additional behavior. Whether any such extrapolation is valid or useful is another argument to be waged.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:45 am

Of course, the very notion of uniform spherical heating requires rather more than a few Suns. The atomic scientists, as I’m sure most here recall, had to construct a semi-uniform spherical shock wave to implode the plutonium in the Fat Man bomb. It’s not particularly easy to do, and requires a very artificial setup.

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:47 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:43 am
“The dry adiabatic lapse rate is a result of energy considerations. It does not depend in any way on conduction.”
No, but conduction depends on it.

steveta_uk
January 15, 2012 10:48 am

“slower transfer of energy through the system near the surface due to the extra density caused by gravity”
Willlis was very explicit in talking about IR from the surface leaving via a non_GHG, i.e. IR translarent atmosphere.
Exactly why do the IR photons “slow down” due to increased density of an IR-transparent gas?

Bart
January 15, 2012 10:50 am

Paul Dennis says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:39 am
“[In] fact the thermal conductivity does not reduce until the mean free path of molecules is greater than the distance between the inner and outer walls of the flask. It means that the thermal conductivity is constant irrespective of pressure/density as you have pointed out.”
Nearly constant. And, only at low altitude. And, the transition altitude will depend on lapse rate.

anna v
January 15, 2012 10:51 am

wayne says:
January 15, 2012 at 5:25 am
The Stefan–Boltzmann law when used for gases is multiplied by the emissivity of that gas, a measured value which has to be measured for all materials, since a true black body is rare.
I have once seen a derivation that gases follow a T^6 law instead of T^4, but cannot find it again :(.
And please, one more, could you clarify what is meant by “on shell / off shell”? (electron shells of course)
This terminology has to do with Feynman diagrams one would write to calculate the interactions quantum mechanically. Off ( mass)shell means the particle ( photon here) is virtual, between two vertices. On (mass) shell means that the photon leaves the molecule and becomes part of the “radiative pool” used to derive the black body radiation formula.

Bryan
January 15, 2012 10:54 am

Paul Dennis says: “Of course if there is a temperature gradient set up by warming at the base and cooling at the top then the heat transport can be by conduction. I don’t, however, see how heat conduction can lead to a temperature gradient defined by the DALR. Surely, the gradient will depend on the rate of warming at the base and cooling at the top. I couldn’t see anything on page 31 that referred to heat conduction.”
The neutral atmosphere is the atmospheric condition for;
1. ……still air
2….. or for air parcels moving at constant speed (no unbalanced force )…….Top of page 15.
The DALR gives the temperature rate for such atmospheric conditions.
These conditions are often met at night…page 31
“stable boundary layer capped by a NEAR NEUTRAL residual layer.”
If the air happens to be still then only two methods of heat transfer are left
1. diffusion or molecular collision (conduction process)
2. radiation
Yet there is no term for radiation in the gradient formula = – g/Cp
Solution
Both these methods must be involved and the radiative effects of CO2 are grossed up in the bulk thermodynamic quantity Cp.

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