Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
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“The temperature would transiently fall, as the atmosphere takes away heat, until is reaches an equilibirum state with the surface, at which point, since there is no possible source of outgoing radiation OTHER THAN THE SURFACE, then Willis’s balance is restored.”
Willis’s balance will be restored but at a higher equilibrium temperature because the lapse rate resulting from the Ideal Gas Law places the warmest molecules of the atmosphere right at the surface.
Therefore the surface becomes warmer than the average temperature of the atmosphere. The more mass in the atmosphere the greater the warming effect at the surface as compared to what the S – B equation would predict.
Within a gravitational field the pull of gravity is a constant force.It is not akin to a single one off pressurisation, it is akin to continuous pressurising. Therefore there is work being done continuously but only as long as there are energetic molecules for the gravitational field to work on.
But (as I explained) this turns out not to be the case. No work is being done by gravity.
You should, perhaps, take a look at the first law of thermodynamics. It states basically that the heat added to or taken out of a system, plus the external work done on a system, has to equal the change in the internal energy of a system. It is the law of conservation of energy in (a fairly thin and transparent) disguise. Now imagine an adiabatic fluid. That is, one where no heat is being added or taken away. If gravity did work on it, the temperature of the fluid would increase without bound. Gravity is constantly adding work, right? No energy is leaving the box (it’s adiabatic). So the energy content of the box has to constantly increase.
Hence, this statement violates the first law, and is simply not correct.
rgb
Anthony Watts says:
January 15, 2012 at 7:44 am
Think lava lamp.
Hey, I’ve got one of those.
If you leave it on long enough, doesn’t the mixture stop moving with the two primary substances now reversed (stuff that was on the bottom is now on the top)?
Equilibrium perhaps?
@JohnWho
True, but if we wanted the lava lamp to model Earth’s atmosphere, we’d have to turn the lamp off/on in 50% duty cycle to simulate rotation, in which case equilibrium would not be a permanent state – Anthony
Robert Brown 8:12, I’m not asserting anything in that post; I’m just asking Anna V to back up her confident expresions of opinion with some elementary calculations.
I am quite familar with two photon processes, the presence of small dipole moments in isotopically mixed diatomics (such as 14N-15N), and the potential effect of transitory complex formation (such as Ar/N2). I asked about He because these effects will be particularly small in that system.
A sample of He will eventually radiate its heat away, but the process will be incredibly slow. Certainly millions of seconds, quite possibly millions of years. Esesentially impossible to measure as it will be overwhelmed by radiation from the container in any real system.
“How can gravity apply continuous work compressing the atmosphere?”
By constantly restraining the propensity of molecules to fly off into space when they are energised by an external heat source such as the sun.
I am puzzled that so many far better qualified contributors than me seem to be unaware of that.
Gravity works ceaselessly as long as there are molecules with any energy at all attempting to escape its embrace.
That is why one can balance an object in a so called ‘permanent’ near Earth orbit so that it neither crashes to the surface nor flies off to space. It is a well established principle but not here it seems.
With a gaseous atmosphere the Ideal Gas Law applies. A temperature gradient is set up from surface to space with the warmest molecules at the surface.
It is the action of gravity on the molecules of the atmosphere that creates that outcome.
No solar input, no energy to be distributed and no lapse rate.I don’t think that anyone says that the gravity itself is the source of the energy.
This is sort of correct, but it isn’t “the ideal gas law” that applies or is relevant. I’m sorry, but it is a bit more complicated than that. Do you have the link to the Caballero PDF? It’s been posted now on a half dozen threads, and I’ve suggested to Anthony that he create a permanent link to it on the toplevel pages. If you want to see how the adiabatic lapse rate is established, it works through it. Truly, it involves things like the bulk compressibility of the gas, which establishes the structure of the pressure gradient in the first place, plus the way the bulk compressibility varies with temperature, plus the imposition of the adiabatic constraint to give you how the temperature and pressure and height all couple, and this is still in the simplest of circumstances.
The reason, by the way, that people are interpreting gravity “as the source of the energy” is that you keep saying things like WORK done by gravity, and as I just pointed out, that is incorrect. Work goes into the First Law, and if gravity did any net work at all there would be serious problems. So perhaps we could all agree if you just stop asserting that gravity is doing (relevant) work. It simply establishes a static equilibrium pressure gradient — nothing more. It is simple to derive the variation of pressure with height without mentioning temperature or work at all, assuming a constant bulk compressibility. It is a statics problem, static equilibrium. No work is done in static equilibrium, because nothing moves, and work is force through a distance.
rgb
By constantly restraining the propensity of molecules to fly off into space when they are energised by an external heat source such as the sun.
I am puzzled that so many far better qualified contributors than me seem to be unaware of that.
Gravity works ceaselessly as long as there are molecules with any energy at all attempting to escape its embrace.
That is why one can balance an object in a so called ‘permanent’ near Earth orbit so that it neither crashes to the surface nor flies off to space. It is a well established principle but not here it seems.
Seriously, you are starting to cause me actual physical pain. Gravity does no work on an object in a circular orbit, and this isn’t a useful description of how gravity binds molecules in a gas at an equilibrium temperature.
Stephen, I don’t want to discourage you — contributing is good and a good way to learn. But you need to either take a course in introductory physics or else study it on your own in some detail. You can visit my website and under the toplevel “Class” heading there are two semesters worth of intro physics textbook. You can learn how gravity and orbits work (among other things) there. I’ll try to put back the thermo chapters soon as well — I removed them for my classes this last year as we omitted thermo.
rgb
Jonathon Jones,
Surely, the He container would lose energy to the 3K background of space, as long as it can be “heated” by the gas it contains (by molecular collisions)? The container will radiate at microwave fequencies.
Everything will suffer “heat death”, as the laws of thermodynamics dictate. Maximum entropy, minimum enthalpy. Or an I missing something?
A sample of He will eventually radiate its heat away, but the process will be incredibly slow. Certainly millions of seconds, quite possibly millions of years. Esesentially impossible to measure as it will be overwhelmed by radiation from the container in any real system.
Agreed, especially the latter as I have no good feel for the former. I was correcting Anna as well.
rgb
Stephen Wilde says:
January 15, 2012 at 8:43 am
“How can gravity apply continuous work compressing the atmosphere?”
By constantly restraining the propensity of molecules to fly off into space when they are energised by an external heat source such as the sun.
I am puzzled that so many far better qualified contributors than me seem to be unaware of that.
— — —
Stephen, you might have the right thought but are just be wording it incorrect, or just thinking of one side of it. Work is invariant of it’s path. So if a molecule starts to leave Earth and gravity pull it back to the same point no work has been performed, energy is identical. (and really what is happening is the molecule just followined it’s geodesic in the gravity curved spacetime, not ‘pulling’, though usually it is easier to see it that way)
Robert Brown says:
January 15, 2012 at 8:26 am
Richard M: [To avoid confusion, I’m NOT stating that the GHE is a chemical reaction, that is simply an analogy. What happens is the GHGs become well mixed in the atmospheric profile due to pressure and heat. Hence, the GH effective radiating altitude gets set very high even with low concentrations. Because the atmospheric profile is changed very little by adding additional GHGs, that altitude does not increase if things like additional CO2 are added. It is that height that determines the overall GHE.]
This seems correct to me, although somebody (Tim F.?) asserted otherwise. Indeed, I suspect that the Earth is largely insensitive to changes in GHG concentrations, and might even operate the opposite way than expected in some cases. Once you are “opaque” you are opaque, and making it twice as opaque doesn’t really happen. I am actually curious as to whether anybody knows anything concrete about this, as it has bothered me for some time. I’d expect alterations in the outgoing radiation profile due to doubling CO_2 concentration to be, well, almost impossible to detect, as radiation of IR from the troposphere is going to still be radiation of IR from the troposphere. Is the troposphere going to move? Will the adiabatic lapse rate change? Why, exactly, is radiative balance going to change?
The change in atmospheric mass from burning fossil fuels converts O2 to CO2. This increases the mass slightly. So, 100 ppm increase of CO2 should increase the mass by .005%. This will change the profile height by even less then .005% due to gravitational compression. Pretty much undetectable.
As you stated the atmosphere is already absorbing all the radiation from the surface except for a couple of bands where increases will have little effect. The energy works it way up to higher altitudes where it is emitted to space. It gets emitted to space because the density of the GHGs drops dramatically once the gases are no longer well-mixed. It is the profile of the atmosphere that defines this point, not the concentration of any particular GHG. Having more GHGs might slow this process down a few micro-seconds but that is about it.
Of course, I could be wrong and I’m willing to listen to alternative descriptions.
I said: “It does not require convection in our adiabatic atmosphere”
Paul Dennis says:
“As I said before I think convection is needed. The definition of the dry adiabatic lapse rate is:
“The dry adiabatic lapse rate (DALR) is the rate of temperature decrease with height for a parcel of dry or unsaturated air rising under adiabatic conditions.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate”
I used to think that still air was a very infrequent phenomena until I read the text below.
The dry adiabatic lapse rate is derived using the condition of hydroSTATIC equilibrium
for the still air (no convection) condition.
Convection itself is a closely related but not a necessary condition.
(See bottom of page 13)
In the absence of convection (still dry air) heated from the bottom and cooled at the top a temperature gradient would be set up and is in fact given by the DALR.
The dry lapse rate can be satisfied by diffusion(molecular conductive heat transfer)
This is what meteorologists call the neutral atmosphere.
The neutral atmosphere can be quite stable particularly at night.
See page 31 and the residual layer.
http://www-as.harvard.edu/education/brasseur_jacob/ch2_brasseurjacob_Jan11.pdf
“Work is invariant of it’s path. So if a molecule starts to leave Earth and gravity pull it back to the same point no work has been performed, energy is identical.”
Agreed in relation to a molecule that is following a geodesic path. But as regards most molecules work is being done constantly as it moves in and out of the geodesic with on average a net tendency for an energised (by the sun) atmosphere to try and escape to space.
“Seriously, you are starting to cause me actual physical pain. Gravity does no work on an object in a circular orbit, and this isn’t a useful description of how gravity binds molecules in a gas at an equilibrium temperature.”
I know that but most molecules are NOT in a circular orbit. I only gave that as an example of how there are always two forces working in opposition such that they can be finely balanced.
Thus molecules energised by the sun are constantly trying to depart and the gravitational field is constantly trying to restrain them. That is why one cannot equate the situation to a single one off pressurisation.
I can accept that my terms of expression may be flawed but the concepts are sound.
Bryan
thanks for that link. I’ll find time to read it but I don’t think it invalidates my point vis-a-vis Willis’ thought experiment. There is no cooling at the top of his atmosphere because it is a non-GHG atmosphere.
Now I’m off to read your link.
Of course, I could be wrong and I’m willing to listen to alternative descriptions.
That is then two of us, as this is exactly the way I was thinking. I’m trying to remember some of the mechanism that I’ve heard somewhere — that increasing concentration alters the line widths (pressure broadening) and hence changes the width of the hole? But this makes little sense — the pressure doesn’t really change, and it could change things in any direction.
Does anyone know the accepted explanation? I can’t believe that this is a great big “hole” in the reasoning, although with the crap about upwelling and downwelling anything is possible.
rgb
Okay, I have updated my N&Z elevator speech with Willis’ comments, and my answers.
Let us see how much of it that survive this time!
kwik says:
January 15, 2012 at 1:55 am
Elevator speech for N&Z;
-The non-GHG-gas can increase its energy via conduction at the surface.
-This means the gas gets a higher temperature. Via conduction.
-Via “bouancy” it will rise.(Figure of speech; Its density lowers, so it rise)
-When ascending it looses its energy (via conduction with other gas molecules)
until “bouyance” equals gravity. Then it stops.
-The air-parcels close to ground that ascended is replaced by others, creating a circulation.
Willis says:
True so far, but the circulation cannot continue forever.
kwik answers:
Remember, this is elevator speech for N&Z. Not your model.
I think they say the sun continously shines, and that drives the pumping.
I cannot find anything wrong with this.
kwik says:
Conduction increase with increased density.
Density increase when the athmosphere has more mass.
Willis says;
The mass of the atmosphere isn’t changing, and I don’t understand why
conduction would increase with density.
Kwik answers:
Remember, this is elevator speech for N&S. Not for your model.
(You asked for someone giving an elevator speech for N&Z)
I understood that this was their main argument; It is the different athmospheric mass on
the different planets, and gravity, that counts.
SB radiation in their paper is also there, but very small.
Conduction/convection is king. (For N&Z, me thinks )
When the total mass of the athmosphere increase, surely density increase
all the way down to the bottom.
When density increase, the molecules are more densily packet.
More densily packet, means more conduction. That sounds good to me. Experienced it
many times myself when cold at sea in Norway.
kwik says:
This is not a perpeteum mobile; The energy comes from the sun.
It does not violate any laws. It radiate finally to space at TOA, instead of at surface.
Willis says;
Sorry, but there’s no GHG’s in the atmosphere … so it cannot “radiate finally to space at TOA”.
Kwik answers:
When you say “cannot radiate”, I must assume you mean “cannot radiate IR”.
When I say “radiate”, I mean radiate on all frequencies.
Willis says:
All the best, thanks for giving it a try.
Kwik says:
All the best to you too, Willis.
“Now imagine an adiabatic fluid. That is, one where no heat is being added or taken away. If gravity did work on it, the temperature of the fluid would increase without bound.”
But we are adding heat from the sun and releasing it to space later on an altered timescale. I’m not suggesting that additional energy is coming from ‘gravity’.
Gravity has an effect on the molecules energised by the sun by incoming solar shortwave. It increases density the nearer the surface you get and that density increases the number of molecular collisions for a slowing down of the flow of energy through the system, an accumulation of energy within the system and a higher equilibrium temperature as a result.
The ‘work’ arises by virtue of the slowing down of the transmission of energy through the system.
I really don’t think my description is as flawed as you make out.
Stephen Wilde says:
January 15, 2012 at 9:11 am
I know that but most molecules are NOT in a circular orbit.
— — —
Oh Stephen… look up vis viva equation. It doesn’t have to be circular, ANY orbit will do.
wayne says:
January 15, 2012 at 8:59 am
I don’t follow your reasoning – if a molecule is trying to escape gravity – it must have kinetic energy in the ‘escape’ direction – the gravitational force pulls it back, so must be countering that energy, ergo, applying force, and doing ‘work’? It doesn’t matter where the energy came from that the molecule got to have the kinetic escape energy, just that gravity counters that energy and brings it back, so it must be applying force and in moving the molecule back, must be doing work?
REPLY:Brownian motion. See the section on the Stokes equation (under the Einstien section) in this Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion
Note the diagram on the right, which looks just like our atmosphere vertical profile.
Anthony
Robert Brown says:
January 15, 2012 at 9:15 am
[Of course, I could be wrong and I’m willing to listen to alternative descriptions.]
That is then two of us, as this is exactly the way I was thinking. I’m trying to remember some of the mechanism that I’ve heard somewhere — that increasing concentration alters the line widths (pressure broadening) and hence changes the width of the hole? But this makes little sense — the pressure doesn’t really change, and it could change things in any direction.
Does anyone know the accepted explanation? I can’t believe that this is a great big “hole” in the reasoning, although with the crap about upwelling and downwelling anything is possible.
I think the pressure broadening argument is in response to the claims of saturation. So, it is true that a little more radiation is absorbed. The claim is this leads to a log reduction and hence the doubling of concentration to get a linear temperature increase. However, I don’t think this addresses the problem of raising the effective radiation altitude at all. More radiation is captured but it still gets emitted at the effective radiation height. In fact, I think both of these work in parallel to cap the overall effect of adding additional GHGs.
I know that but most molecules are NOT in a circular orbit. I only gave that as an example of how there are always two forces working in opposition such that they can be finely balanced.
But there aren’t. What two forces are acting for particles in any orbit? I only count one — gravity! The problem is that your concepts are not sound. Most molecules aren’t in an orbit at all. The things that determine binding of gas molecules to a planet are:
a) Escape velocity (or escape energy). Molecules with a total mechanical energy greater than zero (on a scale where being at rest at infinity is zero) have escape energy. For a planet in crude terms, v_escape = \sqrt{2 G M/R} = \sqrt{2 g R} (the latter in the case of Earth, with g surface gravity and R the radius).
b) The Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution of velocities (or kinetic energies) of molecules in a gas at thermal equilibrium, per mass species. Smaller masses at a given temperature have more of a MB “tail” at any given temperature and are more likely to have escape speed. Consequently, light gases like hydrogen and helium tend to relatively quickly be lost (from Earth’s atmosphere) where O_2, N_2 and so on have much longer lifetimes. All of the components of the atmosphere are partially replaced as they are lost via e.g. outgassing from the crust — otherwise there would be no helium in the atmosphere at all.
Neither of these has much to do with PV = NkT, although one can probably connect the MB distribution to it somehow. Not any obvious way other than equipartition, but somehow.
rgb
What interests me about the gravitational/adiabatic hypotheses is the notion that the mass of the atmosphere could vary so much over time.
The warming if an IR transparent atmosphere by compression (Browning, Pauling, etc) can be completely independent of insolation and radiation.
wayne, most molecules aren’t in orbit at all.
They constantly vibrate with kinetic energy, fly about with convection everywhere and throughout all those movements of whatever type they are working against but within the constraints of gravity.
There are more molecules nearer the surface due to gravity, more collisions and conduction near the surface due to gravity, slower transfer of energy through the system near the surface due to the extra density caused by gravity.
If one slows down the rate of energy transfer through anything then the equilibrium temperature will rise and the mass of non GHGS will achieve just that They will do so in relation to density which is gravitationally induced.
I am astonished how far this thread has gone away from the basic realities.
Bryan,
I’ve had a quick look and see nothing that doesn’t agree with what I have said. Whilst the hydrostatic pressure distribution is used to calculate the dry adiabatic lapse rate, the key statement in the article is on the bottom of page 12:
“The temperature of an air parcel changes anytime its pressure changes, i.e., anytime there is movement in the atmosphere.”.
The key point is the air parcel has to experience a change in pressure by moving for it to cool. This is atmospheric convection.
Of course if there is a temperature gradient set up by warming at the base and cooling at the top then the heat transport can be by conduction. I don’t, however, see how heat conduction can lead to a temperature gradient defined by the DALR. Surely, the gradient will depend on the rate of warming at the base and cooling at the top. I couldn’t see anything on page 31 that referred to heat conduction.
Now if there is no heat loss by radiation at the top of the model atmosphere and the base of the atmosphere is at uniform temperature then convection won’t happen and conduction will ensure the atmosphere is at uniform temperature.
I agree with you this is not a useful model for Earth’s atmosphere in which variable heating at the base, convection, conduction and radiation are occurring.