A link to where to download the new FOIA2011.zip file is posted below the fold – This will be a top post for a few days -NEW STORIES APPEAR BELOW THIS ONE -I’ve also reversed the order of the updates to be newest at top for better visibility – Anthony
UPDATE50: 1:15 PM PST 11/30 The genesis of RealClimate.org seems to have been found. Surprisingly, the BBC’s Roger Harrabin seems to have been involved in the genesis meeting.
UPDATE49: 10:00 AM PST 11/30 While not email related, just as Climategate breaks David Suzuki commits an egregious propaganda error second only to the 10:10 video where kids are blown up for not going along with carbon reduction schemes at school. He’s targeting kids and Santa Claus at Christmas – Santa’s home is melting.
UPDATE48: 9:20 AM PST 11/30 Dr. Phil Jones on the “lack of warming” -he may need a backup plan.
UPDATE47: 9AM PST 11/30 Fudge factor collection in the emails, or is climate modeling a social issue?
UPDATE46: A look at UEA/CRU’s email infrastructure and email systems in general suggests that the “deleted” emails to/from Phil Jones and others at CRU probably still exist and can be subject to FOIA.
UPDATE45: 1:30PM PST 11/29 If there was award for clueless timing, this would win it no contest: Penn State to lecture on “climate ethics”
UPDATE44: 9AM PST 11/29 Mike Mann reprises the role of Captain Queeg in The Cain Mutiny when seeing de Freitas being vindicated by the publisher of Climate Research (see the update in the article).
UPDATE43: 8AM PST 11/29 An Excel Spreadsheet with Climategate 1 and 2 emails ordered chronologically should be helpful in determining that supposedly missing”context”
UPDATE42: 7AM PST 11/29 The CRU crew says: “what we really meant was…”
UPDATE41: 4AM PST 11/29 James Padget schools Steve Zwick – Guide to Defending the Indefensible. Some people just can’t handle Climategate.
UPDATE40: 12AM PST 11/29 Penn State has the same “look the other way” problem with Climategate as they did with the Jerry Sandusky scandal.
UPDATE39: It seems “vexatious” is Dr. Phil Jones favorite new feeling word after summer 2009.
UPDATE38: Severinghaus says Mike Mann didn’t give a straight answer regarding why trees don’t work as thermometers after 1950
UPDATE37: Climate sensitivity can’t be quantified with the current data according to NCAR’s Wigley, with paleo data – even less so.
UPDATE36: Dr. Chris de Freitas responds to the ugly attempt by The Team at getting him fired.
UPDATE 35: “Stroppy” Dr Roger Pielke Sr. shows just how much a “old boys network” the peer review process is.
UPDATE34: More internal dissent of the hockey stick. Mann tries to beat down the concern over “hide the decline” while not letting the dissenting scientist know there was a decline.
UPDATE33: Gobsmacking! Rob Wilson proves McIntyre and McKittrick correct in an email to colleagues at CRU, showing that when random noise time series are fed into Mike Mann’s procedure, it makes “hockey sticks”. The confirmation that M&M is right never leaves the walls of CRU.
UPDATE32: 9:30PM PST 11/27 BREAKING – Canada to pull out of Kyoto protocol. Another Climategate fallout ?
UPDATE31: 4:30PM PST 11/27 BOMBSHELL An absolutely disgusting string of communications that shows the tribal attempt at getting an editor of a journal fired on made up issues – all because he allowed a publication that didn’t agree with “the Team”. This is ugly, disturbing, and wrong on every level.
UPDATE30: 9:45 AM PST 11/27 Newsbytes. Major crack in the warming wall at the UK prime minister’s office. BBC in collusion with Climategate scientists.
UPDATE29: 9AM PST 11/27 The saga of the missing station data at CRU and the “pants on fire” defense of it as told by Willis Eschenbach. Dr. Phil Jones is between a rock and a hard place, quite.
UPDATE 28: 1:30PM PST 11/26 An email shows the UNFCCC considers activists an essential tool saying “…organized and deeply committed environmental activism has long been an important part of the UNFCCC process…”
UPDATE27: 7AM PST 11/26 Climategate 2 features prominently in WUWT’s newest feature “Hits and Misses”
UPDATE26: 2:50 PM 11/25 Two separate examples show obstruction and collusion by members of “The Team” to prevent any dissenting science from being properly considered by the NRC in 2007.
UPDATE25: 2PM 11/25 Keith Briffa asks another colleague to delete email to avoid FOIA
UPDATE24: 1:30PM 11/25 New Climategate 1/2 combined search engine here
UPDATE23: 9AM PST 11/25 via bishop-hill, strange infighting:
#4101 – Edward Cook tells Phil Jones that Mike Mann is “serious enemy” and “vindictive”. Mike Mann had criticized his work.
Apparently Mann went “a little crazy” over a paper showing the MWP exists.
Details here
UPDATE22: 11AM PST 11/24 Am unsurprising admission from a BBC environmental reporter to Dr. Phil Jones that they really have no impartiality at all (ho ho) when it comes to climate issues.
UPDATE21: 9:50AM PST 11/24 “FOIA2011″ and Climategate – A Chinese-POTUS connection?
UPDATE20: 9:30AM PST 11/24 World renowned climatologist Phil Jones can’t even plot a temperature trend line in Excel. I’ve offered a solution that WUWT readers can help with.
UPDATE19: 9AM PST 11/24 Gail Combs finds some disturbing connections between the Team and The World Bank
UPDATE18: 1:45PM Scott Mandia, aka “Supermandia” wins the award for the silliest climategate rebuttal, ever. It’s like stupid on steroids.
UPDATE17: 12:55PM PST 11/23 Dr. Roger Pielke Jr. has an excellent piece on “Gatekeeping” related to Trenberth and the Pielke-Landsea hurricane paper and the IPCC. You may recall Landsea resigned from the IPCC over this. Pielke says: “The gatekeeping of the IPCC process is abundantly clear, and the shadowy suggestion that they can find out who the reviewers are from another colleague is a bit unsettling as well.” Trenberth looks particularly bad here.
UPDATE16: 11:30AM PST 11/23 Insider scientist at CRU says our “reaction to Mike Mann’s errors was not particularly honest” – story here
UPDATE15: 7:50AM 11/23 Ric Werme found an email from the late John L. Daly to Mike Mann and the team – it is well worth a read here
UPDATE14: 2:45 AM PST 11/23 Willis Eschenbach offers a guest post here explaining how his FOIA requests went astray. Mr. David Palmer was the Freedom of Information Officer for the CRU at the time. In the newly released emails, he expresses his frustration with the whole procedure.
UPDATE13: 12:05AM 11/23 Craig Stone writes:
I have published a searchable database of the emails at http://foia2011.org
All email addresses and phone numbers are automatically redacted. It’s extremely rudimentary right now, but I’ll be refining the functionality and improving the search capabilities and navigation over the course of the next week.
UPDATE 12: 9:30 PM PST We’ve known for some time that Al Gore made up a bunch of claims in his AIT movie that simply weren’t true. Now this revelation in the new email batch shows that in the case of Kilimanjaro’s disappearing snows, even Phil Jones and Dr. Lonnie Thompson don’t believe global warming is the cause, even though Thompson put out a press release nearly a year ago saying just that. Told ya so. Pants on fire and all that. Anything for “the cause” right?
UPDATE11: 4:45PM PST Kevin Trenberth gets all misty eyed and sing-songy at Christmas here
UPDATE10: 4:30PM PST Some thoughts on cracking the big remaining all.7z file here
UPDATE9: 2:25PM PST Josh weighs in with the first satirical cartoon here
UPDATE8: 140PM PST Mike Mann shows his true colors:
email 1680.txt
date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:03:05 -0400
from: “Michael E. Mann”..
subject: Re: Something not to pass on
to: Phil Jones
Phil,
I would not respond to this. They will misrepresent and take out of context anything you give them. This is a set up. They will certainly publish this, and will ignore any evidence to the contrary that you provide. s They are going after Wei-Chyung because he’s U.S. and there is a higher threshold for establishing libel. Nonetheless, he should
consider filing a defamation lawsuit, perhaps you too.
I have been talking w/ folks in the states about finding an investigative journalist to investigate and expose McIntyre, and his thusfar unexplored connections with fossil fuel interests.Perhaps the same needs to be done w/ this Keenan guy.
I believe that the only way to stop these people is by exposing them and discrediting them….
UPDATE7: 1:20 PM PST Phil Jones and Tom Wigley calls another scientist (The former state climatologist of California) a “jerk” for publishing his UHI results.
UPDATE6: 12:08PM PST Here’s an email that collaborates a radio interview I did in Seattle with Thomas Peterson in summer 2007, yes these are 100% real emails, no doubt whatsoever now. More here: Climategate 2.0 – NCDC: “Mr. Watts gave a well reasoned position”
UPDATE 5: 11:00AM PST In a statement, UEA doesn’t deny these emails, but posts about the whitewash investigations of the past, like they matter now.
UPDATE4: 9:45 AM PST I’ve changed the headline from Climategate 2.0 to Climategate 2.0 emails – They’re real and they’re spectacular! with a hat tip to Jerry Seinfeld. The relevance of that headline is particularly interesting in the context of where Dr. James Hansen of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) has his office in NYC.
UPDATE3: 9:25 AM PST – Having read a number of emails, and seeing this quote from Mike Mann in the Guardian:
When asked if they were genuine, he said: “Well, they look like mine but I hardly see anything that appears damning at all, despite them having been taken out of context. I guess they had very little left to work with, having culled in the first round the emails that could most easily be taken out of context to try to make me look bad.”
I’m going to conclude they are the real deal. I’ve posted a BitTorrent link to the file below. One big difference between Climategate 1 and 2 is that in 1, it took days for the MSM to catch on, now they are on top of it.
UPDATE2: 8:45AM PST The Guardian has a story up by Leo Hickman, and this excerpt suggests they may be the real deal:
Norfolk police have said the new set of emails is “of interest” to their investigation to find the perpetrator of the initial email release who has not yet been identified.
The emails appear to be genuine, but this has yet to be confirmed by the University of East Anglia. One of the emailers, the climate scientist Prof Michael Mann, has confirmed that he believes they are his messages.
UPDATE1: 8:20 AM PST These emails have not been verified yet, and this story was posted by one of my moderating staff while I was asleep. Until such time they are verified, tread lightly because without knowing what is behind the rest of the zip file, for all we know it’s a bunch of recipes and collection of lorem ipsum text files. I’m working to authenticate these now and will report when I know more – Anthony Watts
===============================================================
Early this morning, history repeated itself. FOIA.org has produced an enormous zip file of 5,000 additional emails similar to those released two years ago in November 2009 and coined Climategate. There are almost 1/4 million additional emails locked behind a password, which the organization does not plan on releasing at this time.
The original link was dropped off in the Hurricane Kenneth thread at about 4 AM Eastern. It is still there.
Some initial snippets floating around the blogosphere:
<3373> Bradley: I’m sure you agree–the Mann/Jones GRL paper was truly pathetic and should never have been published. I don’t want to be associated with that 2000 year
“reconstruction”.
<3115> Mann: By the way, when is Tom C going to formally publish his roughly 1500 year
reconstruction??? It would help the cause to be able to refer to that
reconstruction as confirming Mann and Jones, etc.
<3940> Mann: They will (see below) allow us to provide some discussion of the synthetic
example, referring to the J. Cimate paper (which should be finally accepted
upon submission of the revised final draft), so that should help the cause a
bit.
<0810> Mann: I gave up on Judith Curry a while ago. I don’t know what she think’s she’s
doing, but its not helping the cause
<2440> Jones: I’ve been told that IPCC is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 would be to delete all emails at the end of the
process
<2094> Briffa: UEA does not hold the very vast majority of mine [potentially FOIable emails] anyway which I copied onto private storage after the completion of the IPCC
task.
JeffId has some initial reaction
From the ReadMe file:
/// FOIA 2011 — Background and Context ///
“Over 2.5 billion people live on less than $2 a day.”
“Every day nearly 16.000 children die from hunger and related causes.”
“One dollar can save a life” — the opposite must also be true.
“Poverty is a death sentence.”
“Nations must invest $37 trillion in energy technologies by 2030 to stabilize
greenhouse gas emissions at sustainable levels.”
Today’s decisions should be based on all the information we can get, not on
hiding the decline.
This archive contains some 5.000 emails picked from keyword searches. A few
remarks and redactions are marked with triple brackets.
The rest, some 220.000, are encrypted for various reasons. We are not planning
to publicly release the passphrase.
We could not read every one, but tried to cover the most relevant topics such
as…
==============================================================
Here’s one about UHI that is convincing:
cc: liqx@cma.xxx
date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:16:37 +0800
from: =?gb2312?B?JUQ1JUM1JUMwJUYyJUMzJUY0IA==?= <limmy@xxx>
subject: Re:Re: thank you
to: p.jones@xxx
Dear Phil,
Again I find that the emails from my CMA mail boxes can not get to you.
From attaches please find the data of 42 urban stations and 42 rural stations (by your
list) and a reference of homogenization of the data. we have tested and adjusted the abrupt
discontinuities of the data during 1951-2001, but the following years (2002-2004) has only
been quality controled and added to the end of the series, but we found the relocation
during these 3 years have minor effects on the whole series in most of the stations.
I partly agree with what Prof. Ren said. and we have done some analysis on the urban heat
island effect in China during past years. The results are differnt with Ren’s. But I think
different methods, data, and selection of the urban and rural stations would be the most
important causes of this. So I think it is high time to give some new studies and graw some
conclusion in this topic. I hope we can make some new achives on this both on global scale
and in China.
Best
Qingxiang
—– Original Message —–
From: “Phil Jones” < p.jones@xxxx >
To: “Rean Guoyoo” < guoyoo@xxxx >
Cc: “%D5%C5%C0%F2%C3%F4” < limmy@xxx>, < liqx@cma.xxx >
Sent: 2007-09-24 16:25:59 +0800
Subject: Re: thank you
Dear Guoyu,
I think I emailed you from America last week. I am away again next week,
but here this week.
I do think that understanding urban influences are important. I will
wait for Dr Li Qingxiang to send some data, but there is no rush, as I am
quite busy the next few weeks.
Best Regards
Phil
At 00:59 20/09/2007, you wrote:
The following message was returned back when I sent via cma site. I send it again via
this site. I also forwarded this message to Dr, Li Qingxiang.
Regards,
Guoyu
Dear Phil,
Thank you for your message of Sept 11, 2007. I have just been back from the US. Sorry
for the delayed response.
I noted the discussion on blog sites. This is indeed a big issue in the studies of
climate change.
In the past years, we did some analyses of the urban warming effect on surface air
temperature trends in China, and we found the effect is pretty big in the areas we
analyzed. This is a little different from the result you obtained in 1990. I think there
might be at least three reasons for the difference: (1) the areas chosen in the analyses
are different; (2) the time periods analyzed are obviously varied, and the aft-1990
period is seeing a more rapid warming in most areas of China; (3) the rural stations
used for the analyses are different, and we used some stations which we think could be
more representative for the baseline change.
We have published a few of papers on this topic in Chinese. Unfortunately, when we sent
our comments to the IPCC AR4, they were mostly rejected.
It is my opinion that we need to re-assess the urbanization effect on surface air
temperature records for at least some regions of the continents. I am glad that you are
going to redo it using the updated dataset. I expect you to obtain the new outcome.
As for the dataset, I believe that Dr. Li Qingxiang could give you a hand. He and his
group conducted a lot work of detection and adjustment of the inhomogeneities in the
past years, and the adjusted and the raw datasets are all stored and managed in his
center. The datasets we used are also from his center.
I’d be happy to discuss some issues with you late, but I would not necessarily be as a
co-author because my contribution would be rather minor.
Best regards,
Guoyu
NCC, Beijing
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. [1]Join our Network Research Panel today!
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 xxxx
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 xxxxx
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email p.jones@xxxxx
NR4 7TJ
UK
—————————————————————————-
=======================263ÌìÏÂÓÊ£ÐÅÀµÓÊ×Ôרҵ=======================
Attachment Converted: “c:\eudora\attach\Detecting and Adjusting Temporal Inhomogeneity in
Chinese Mean Surface Air Temperature Data.pdf” Attachment Converted: “c:\eudora\attach\To
Jones.rar”
====================================================================
Here’s a bit torrent link to the FOIA2011.zip file
You’ll need a bit torrent client
BETTER LINK:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ROCGBR37
Documentation Of A Cozy Interaction Between An AMS BAMS Editor And Phil Jones
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
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barry says:
“I know about the divergence issue in the late 20th century WRT maximum latewood density in certain tree-ring proxies. ‘Trick’ and ‘hide’ are jargon, and you are right that one should approach such informal non-scientific language cautiously. A divergence in the latter part of the proxy DOES NOT automatically mean that the rest of the series is useless. It IS a big red flag, and the data series should be tested. The data series follows the instrumental record very well for a significant period before diverging in the second half of the 20th century. Briffa and others devoted entire studies to this phenomenon. …
On the divergence issue, it is NOT an ‘inescapable conclusion’ that the data is ‘useless’, but that outcome is a strong possibility that must be explored.”
When I first studied statistics, I was taught to beware of spurious correlation. The fact that there is almost perfect correlation over even a long period does not prove cause. And unless cause is proved there is never any guarantee that the correlation will continue. By graduating their “proxies” to known (!) temperatures and obtaining a good fit some climatologists thought that they had unearthed natural thermometers.
When, for more recent periods, these were found wanting they replaced the later measurements obtained from their proxies with real (!) readings but continued to use the same proxies to replicate temperatures for prior periods. After it was pointed out that the data which they had obtained from the proxies did not tally with contemporaneous written records for earlier periods they continued to use the same proxies but overlaid the records by use of models. Hence Mann, after producing his hockey stick, could partially change his position and write “‘Proxy records and results of a three dimensional climate model show that European summer temperatures roughly a millennium ago were comparable to those of the last 25 years of the 20th century, supporting the existence of a summer “Medieval Warm Period” in Europ”.
Despite Briffa and others devoting entire studies to this phenomenom there has never been any satisfactory explanation as to why the proxies did not match later known temperatures and hence the a priori hypothesis, which has still to be disproved, is that the observed correlation between the proxies and real temperatures over the earlier years for which both exist is spurious. It does not necessarfly prove that the “observed” correlation was the result of overzealous graduation but that possibility should be explored. However, instead of ascertaining the reason for the discrepancy, Jones, Mann et al chose to “hide the decline”, perhaps in the hope that the “trick” would remain hidden. Hence their reluctance to provide data, raw or otherwise.
Until these missionaries come up with a rational explanation as to why the proxies which they claim provide an accurate measure of past temperatures ceased so to do in the latter half of the twentieth century, the splicing of the two series remains unsound and the proxy records of dubious validity.
For some real science, see here:
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=8723
“CO2 or Sun?”
It was never CO2 at all as the satellite data shows.
In the following 3 paras from the intro to the readme file the Continental European form of delimiting thousands is used:
“Every day nearly 16.000 children die from hunger and related causes.”
This archive contains some 5.000 emails picked from keyword searches. A few
remarks and redactions are marked with triple brackets.
The rest, some 220.000, are encrypted for various reasons. We are not planning
to publicly release the passphrase.
How many continental Europeans work at UEA?
David, it seems to me that the strongest skepticism derives its strength from focusing upon the strongest science. And for sure, sceptics and non-skeptics alike agree on this: neither Al Gore’s movies nor the purloined CRU emails represent the strongest climate change science.
That’s why the American Institute of Physics (AIP) does everyone a terrific service — sceptics and non-skeptics alike — by hosting its history-oriented scientific survey “The Discovery of Global Warming”. As the AIP’s survey plainly shows, neither the basic science of climate change, nor the human nature that struggles to come to terms with that science, has substantially changed in the last 60 years (essentially since Roger Revell’s climate-change synthesis in the 1950s).
The present-day climate change drama calls to mind the words of a philosopher much-cherished by America’s founders:
As the historian Jonathan Israel has written: “A noble and beautiful thought, no doubt, but was he right? That perhaps, is the question of our time.”
For sure, neither Al Gore’s movies nor the CRU emails nor the innumerable skeptical fulminations against them, have much to do with “the questions of our time”, which include the relatively simple question of whether AGW is real and serious, and also the harder question of whether the human race is capable of constructively addressing serious realities.
Stephen Wilde says:
It was never CO2 at all as the satellite data shows.
Henry@Stephen Fisher
never say never…
Remember I said it looks like that there could be a direct correlation if you compare the results in my tables
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/henrys-pool-table-on-global-warming
with that of the leaf area index shown in the world chart here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/24/the-earths-biosphere-is-booming-data-suggests-that-co2-is-the-cause-part-2/
(I wonder if someone here could tell me how I could get their actual measured figures on this, because I cannot find it in the above blog)
In the red areas, where we find earth is blooming, and more greening, you will note from the results in the tables that the increase in maxima is picked up and trapped by the increasing vegetation. In the blue areas, where substantial de-forestation has been going on, you will find mean temperatures and minima declining or staying unchanged, even though maxima are rising.
So, it seems if you want the earth to be greener, the natural consequence is that it will also get a bit warmer.
But, don’t forget, this extra greening of earth is made possible by the extra carbondioxide that we put up in the air in the first place,
because carbondioxode=plantfood
Hi Henry,
I think the main factor dictating atmospheric CO2 content is the sea surface temperature. Sure, vegetation is involved but in my view a secondary factor.
I believe Murry Salby is shortly going to confirm that the oceans and soil moisture on land are the primary sinks and sources and they are temperature dependent.
So it all comes back to global cloud quantities and global albedo.
0002.txt is interesting if you are interested in dendro timelines. Here is Briffa (in conversation Edward Cook) wanting Mann and Jones left out of some research into apparently how uncertain the dendrochronological studies really are. Has some interesting comments on Bradley in there, too.
A physicist says:
November 26, 2011 at 11:16 am
I hope you can understand my apprehension at allowing the authors of these emails, the world bank, and the U.S. dept. of energy determine that future for me. 🙂
A physicist says:
November 26, 2011 at 11:16 am
For sure, neither Al Gore’s movies nor the CRU emails nor the innumerable skeptical fulminations against them, have much to do with “the questions of our time”, which include the relatively simple question of whether AGW is real and serious….
Your “sceptical fulminations” are instead at the heart of real science’s method and principles. But since you don’t recognize the fact that Climate Science not only does not practice real science, but also intentionally avoids its method and principles, you have no idea how to answer your own “relatively simple” questions, or what your platitude “begging the question” = “presuming the truth of that which is the question” of whether Climate Science has any “strong science” even means!
So you need to address your own problems first.
“We have found a correlation between tree rings and galactic cosmic radiation:”
“I hope doesn’t
>result in scientific excommunication!”
0782.txt Email forwarded by Keith Briffa to someone in uea
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2009.03026.x/full
A relationship between galactic cosmic radiation and tree rings
Sigrid Dengel, Dominik Aeby, John Grace
Article first published online: 14 SEP 2009
DOI: 10.1111/j.1469-8137.2009.03026.x
JPeden, anyone who reads the American Institute of Physics account of Roger Revell’s climate-change synthesis in the 1950s will be struck by the fact that the CRU emails are showing us precisely the same methods of science that Revelle and his colleagues practiced back in the 1950s. As the historian John Tolland was has written, the point is that:
The present debates here on WUWT teach us much about the past struggle of John Revelle and his colleagues in the 1950s … they teach us that science in the 1950s faced the same struggle that today’s climate change scientists are facing: the struggle of new-and-correct scientific ideas to gain acceptance against human nature embodied in the thought-habits of a conservative establishment.
[MODERATOR’S NOTE: You are starting to repeat yourself and dangerously close to being snipped…. again. The topic is the e-mails. Make cogent references if you want to continue to comment. -REP]
Dustbin. Isn’t that where the latest climate conclave is?
One other thing that might be interesting as FOIA2 overlaps FOIA1 in time is to combine both document dumps into one repository and then grepping through in search of various conversations. It might be that portions of context for FOIA2 are actually in 1 and vice versa. One thing I am going to do is put both archives in subdirectories of a parent dir and using grep -r (for GNU grep) to recursively search both directories for desired keywords and people.
Barry – my goodness you’re good at missing the point, twisting and spinning. You say “Raymond Bradley said he was biased. Is Bradley God or something? Is his word law?
We’re discussing the emails, right? Are you meaning to suggest that I should just accept whatever Raymond Bradley says about Michael Mann as being the final, irreducible truth?”
Well, let’s have a look at what I said: “That makes his work suspect. Of its own, that is not enough to dismiss his work, only to be very cautious indeed about it. But examination of his work by various people has shown it to be worse than “suspect”, as in this email which questions whether it is even inside ” the realm of science”:
http://www.ecowho.com/foia.php?file=1675.txt
“Two, will all of you get over the “Hockey Stick Curve”? That’s a tough one. Now that two teams of recognized specialists (North, Wegman) have confirmed the critiques of McIntyre and McKitrick, many have watched the ultimate result in disbelief.”
So, you see, the answer is no, Bradley is not a god, his word is not law. Like anyone else, what he says needs to be checked against other evidence. In this case it turns out that there is overwhelming evidence of which I have quoted a part
re your next comment. How you can spin this one is rather breathtaking. You say “There was no ‘hiding’ going on“. Well, let me remind you that it was not me that said there was hiding going on, it was Phil Jones. Remember?
http://www.ecowho.com/foia.php?file=3451.txt
“I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline”
Again, it is not enough to take even Phil Jones’ word for it, it is necessary to check that what he said is correct. The evidence again is overwhelming, as acknowledged by Andre Bijkirk above. Regarding the unacceptable usage of the proxy data, that is explained well by Solomon Green … http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/22/climategate-2-0/#comment-809311
… ending with “Until these missionaries come up with a rational explanation as to why the proxies which they claim provide an accurate measure of past temperatures ceased so to do in the latter half of the twentieth century, the splicing of the two series remains unsound and the proxy records of dubious validity.“
newzealandclimate says:
November 25, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Something odd here. I posted a link to the following earlier today, and it has disappeared:
I have been searching the emails for New Zealand related content, and just posted this on my site.
http://newzealandclimatechange.wordpress.com/2011/11/26/climategatte-2-salinger-puts-the-boot-into-de-freitas/
The email is from Jim Salinger, who was a ‘scientist’ at NIWA, the organisation that created a junk science temperature record for New Zealand. In the email, he proposes that journal editors write to the dean of University of Auckland with a clear intention to try to get a skeptic, de Freitas, sacked from the university. In another email, Michael Mann approves of the action……most interestingly the head of the IPCC is copied in on the emails of the hatchet job.
Shocking stuff!
===========================
Your previous post is also there, must have been a delay. Thanks for this, and other posting on de Freitas, I was wondering about New Zealand and Salinger of course was the one who fiddled the temperature records there (and a recent successful campaign to get these thrown out of the official record).
Found this email exchange, not from Climategate 2, but from the Grauniad – Hot enough for you? In this week’s email exchange, Dr Jean Paultikof and Dr Chris de Freitas discuss the causes and consequences of global warming
: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2003/aug/16/comment.weather
“I don’t mind saying that I would rather be in Clacton.” 🙂
A physicist says:
November 26, 2011 at 12:43 pm
The point is that these emails show disgusting science and scientists that are more activist than scientist. It doesn’t matter how long such shennanigans have been going on, what’s important is that the Internet and 24-hr “news cycle” now let the whole world see them for the “climsci” that they are–only partially open about the climate, hence the “clim”, and not complete scientists, either, hence the “sci”.
But David Ball is right–“Dustbin” is where climate science is going as the CRU bunch and those advocating “The Cause” are exposed in future repeats of Climategate. Count on upwards of 40+ 5,000-email disclosures. I predict, physicist, you will eventually wear your fingers out trying to support their horrible methodology but it really won’t matter. China and India read this blog and yet continue to finish several coal-fired power plants every week. It appears they know something that you fail to see. Obviously, they’re not taking your argument seriously.
To whoever –
“Most people don’t believe AGW because it goes against common sense, ”
Not sure about America but here in Britain “most people” = dunces who read tabloids and watch X Factor – their opinions on almost everything worth absolutely nothing. Their “common sense” right up there with the “common sense” of the “God doesn’t like gays” wisdom of the numerous sky pixie cult followers that populate this planet.
” Climategate actually provided the evidence to say that it is a big hoax. ”
According to you but not everyone else on the planet. So it’s an opinion.
Climategate actually provided the evidence to say that it is a big hoax.
Climategate scientists DID collude with government officials to hide research that didn’t fit their apocalyptic global warming5,000 leaked emails reveal scientists deleted evidence that cast doubt on claims climate change was man-made
Experts were under orders from US and UK officials to come up with a ‘strong message’
Critics claim: ‘The stink of intellectual corruption is overpowering’
Scientist asks, ‘What if they find that climate change is a natural fluctuation? They’ll kill us all’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2066240/Second-leak-climate-emails-Political-giants-weigh-bias-scientists-bowing-financial-pressure-sponsors.html#ixzz1erNmhTua
A physicist says:
November 26, 2011 at 12:43 pm
JPeden, anyone who reads the American Institute of Physics account of Roger Revell’s climate-change synthesis in the 1950s will be struck by the fact that the CRU emails are showing us precisely the same methods of science that Revelle and his colleagues practiced back in the 1950s.
Thanks! And here I was thinking that Climate Science’s record of not practicing real science was only really fairly well established over a period of about the past 13 years or so, leading to the production of the TAR with Mann’s Hockey Stick icon, Climate Science’s perfect record of failed predictions, the IPCC’s weighted “method”, etc., and the “Revelations” revealed by the two “Climategates”.
“There are no simple lessons in history … it is human nature that repeats itself, not history. We often learn more about the past from the present, in fact, than the reverse.”
And no, I don’t accept any theory of knowledge that sounds like Hegel’s or Marx’s magical Dialectical Materialism or tries to return science to the good old pre-Enlightenment days of Post Normal Science.
Henry, if you get to Sydney I’ll shout you coffee, and we don’t need to fixate on climate change.
Solomon Green @ur momisugly here
You describe the output of paleoclimate as if the scientists do no testing of the data, and offer no caveats with their findings. You also seem to imagine that millennial reconstructions have all included the latewood proxies. What about time series derived purely from boreholes, or other proxies, or that didn’t include the MXD data?
Millennial reconstructions are built from a range of data using different methods. Some studies have more or less data overlap, some have none. The preponderance of studies, even if you throw out all the papers Mann was involved with, tends to corroborate the MBH reconstructions. With a small number of exceptions, most papers agree that the NH MWP was probably as warm as the 20th century NH, but likely not as warm as the last decade/s of the 20th century, and that the LIA was pretty cold.
Being familiar with the wider body of literature, it makes me wonder why people are singling out Mann. Why doesn’t Ray Bradley, who co-authored the hockey stick papers, or Hughes, get as much stick? Is their contribution to the so-called ‘fraud’ somehow unimportant? Why fixate on Mann?
And what about the other authors of non-Mannian papers that come up with the same basic conclusions? Why does no one here mention them? Why, in fact, does no one talk about these other papers that basically corroborate the work of Bradley, Hughes, Briffa, Mann?
Could it be no one here is actually interested in understanding the field in general? Do people actually believe that if Mann was utterly discredited, scientific understanding of millennial temperatures would be virtually unchanged? If so, then you’re waging a political battle, and catty emails from the players are just grist to that mill.
(In reply to a comment above, I’m not trying to convince anyone about what the MWP was like, or whether AGW is something to be concerned about. I’m just knocking on the door to see if there are any actual skeptics here. It’s not even worth approaching tertiary issues until people remember what critical thinking really is. Hint: if you are saying things with a lot of certainty, you’re almost certainly not thinking critically)
barry says:
November 26, 2011 at 5:18 pm
Mann is the “standard bearer” of “The Team”, yet he absolutely refuses to divulge corroboration, methodology, or data; indeed, he threatens lawsuits and colludes with UVa like it were a Penn State pedophile investigation.
Need I go deeper into this, or is his odious and offensive behavior answer enough? (One would think a professor working at a public university would have read the rules of disclosure by now but apparently Mann did not, or did not agree to them.)
So yes, we’re all interested in “the field” as you call it, but you present a red herring. Jones, Mann and others hide or lose their work and you complain we’re not interested in it because (of course) we can’t see the data or methodology.
And we’re supposed to take your offer seriously?
Laughable!
Newsflash brought to you by Junior’s Auto Sales (Telephone BR-549) here on KORN Radio:
Newly released emails show that climate scientists privately express serious doubts about the ability to prove global climate change due to CO2 emissions. This comes on top of the recent backing down of Global Warming impacts on such places as Kilimanjaro in Africa and on Himalayan glaciers and the revelation that United Nations IPCC “consensus” was not as widespread as it was earlier purported to be
The climate scientists have expressed such concerns as “they will kill us” if the people are to discover that the observed temperature changes are due to normal natural climate variation in light of the billions of dollars that have been spent globally and the regulations imposed at great inconvenience on the populations of many countries.
It is reported that massive crowds are currently gathering with pitchforks and torches on the grounds of both the US Capitol building and Penn State University demanding all money spent on “global warming” be returned immediately to taxpayers. At Penn State the crowd has brought a set of 17th century stocks and are demanding Michael Mann be turned over to the crowd.
I have made an update on the de Freitas affair, in which I have put the first half of the narrative in order, and added more commentary. I hope that it makes a better read than the original:
http://newzealandclimatechange.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/climategate-2-and-corruption-of-peer-review/
It is the story of a plot by the ‘team’ to get Chris de Freitas sacked for allowing ‘contrary’ articles to be published in journal of Climate Research. In addition to key member of the team being involved, Pachauri is copied in as cc in many of the most outrageous comments. He does nothing to stop his out of control ‘leading scientists’.
Looking for funding Tyndall Centre