By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
I am very grateful for the many thoughtful postings in response to my outline of the fundamental theoretical upper bound of little more than 1.2 K on climate sensitivity imposed by the process-engineering theory of maintaining the stability of an object on which feedbacks operate. Here are some answers to points raised by correspondents.
Iskandar says, “None of these feedbacks or forcings are ever given in the form of a formula.” In fact, there are functions for the forcings arising from each of the principal species of greenhouse gas: they are tabulated in Myhre et al., 1998, and cited with approval in IPCC (2001. 2007). However, Iskandar is right about temperature feedbacks. Here, the nearest thing to a formula for a feedback is the Clausius-Clapeyron relation, which states that the space occupied by the atmosphere is capable of carrying near-exponentially more water vapor as it warms. However, as Paltridge et al. (2009) have indicated, merely because the atmosphere can carry more water vapor there is no certainty that it does. The IPCC’s values for this and other feedbacks are questionable. For instance, Spencer and Braswell (2010, 2011, pace Dessler, 2010, 2011) have challenged the IPCC’s estimate of the cloud feedback. They find it as strongly negative (attenuating the warming that triggers it) as the IPCC finds it strongly positive (amplifying the original warming), implying a climate sensitivity of less than 1 K. Since feedbacks account for almost two-thirds of all warming in the IPCC’s method, and since it is extremely difficult to measure – still less to provide a formula for – the values of individual temperature feedbacks, an effort such as mine to identify a constraint on the magnitude of all feedbacks taken together is at least worth trying.
Doug says we cannot be sure when the dolomitic rocks were formed. What is certain, however, according to Professor Ian Plimer, who gave me the information, is that they cannot form unless the partial pressure of CO2 above the ocean in which they form is 30%, compared with today’s 0.04%. Yet, during the long era when CO2 concentrations were that high, glaciers came and went, twice, at sea level, and at the equator. Even allowing for the fact that the Sun was a little fainter then, and that the Earth’s albedo was higher, the presence of those glaciers where there are none today does raise some questions about the forcing effect of very high CO2 concentrations, and, a fortiori, about the forcing effect of today’s mere trace concentration. However, in general Doug’s point is right: it is unwise to put too much weight on results from the paleoclimate, particularly when there is so much scientific dispute about the results from today’s climate that we can measure directly.
Dirk H and the inimitable Willis Eschenbach, whose fascinating contributions to this column should surely be collected and published as a best-seller, point out that I am treating feedbacks as linear when some of them are non-linear. For the math underlying non-linear feedbacks, which would have been too lengthy to include in my posting, see e.g. Roe (2009). Roe’s teacher was Dick Lindzen, who is justifiably proud of him. However, for the purpose of the present argument, it matters not whether feedbacks are linear or non-linear: what matters is the sum total of feedbacks as they are in our own time, which is multiplied by the Planck parameter (of which more later) to yield the closed-loop gain whose upper bound was the focus of my posting. Of course I agree with Willis that the non-linearity of many feedbacks, not to mention that all or nearly all of them cannot be measured directly, makes solving the climate-sensitivity equation difficult. But, again, that is why I have tried the approach of examining a powerful theoretical constraint on the absolute magnitude of the feedback-sum. Since the loop gain in the climate object cannot exceed 0.1 (at maximum) without rendering the climate so prone to instability that runaway feedbacks that have not occurred in the past would be very likely to have occurred, the maximum feedback sum before mutual amplification cannot exceed 0.32: yet the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of the feedback sum is 2.81.
Roger Knights rightly takes me to task for a yob’s comma that should not have been present in my posting. I apologize. He also challenges my use of the word “species” for the various types of greenhouse gas: but the word “species” is regularly used by the eminent professors of climatology at whose feet I have sat.
R. de Haan cites an author whose opinion is that warming back-radiation returned from the atmosphere back to the surface and the idea that a cooler system can warm a warmer system are “unphysical concepts”. I know that the manufacturers of some infra-red detectors say the detectors do not measure back-radiation but something else: however, both Mr. de Haan’s points are based on a common misconception about what the admittedly badly-named “greenhouse effect” is. The brilliant Chris Essex explains it thus: when outgoing radiation in the right wavelengths of the near-infrared meets a molecule of a greenhouse gas such as CO2, it sets up a quantum resonance in the gas molecule, turning it into a miniature radiator. This beautifully clear analogy, when I recently used it in a presentation in New Zealand, won the support of two professors of climatology in the audience. The little radiators that the outgoing radiation turns on are not, of course, restricted only to radiating outwards to space. They radiate in all directions, including downwards – and that is before we take into account non-radiative transports such as subsidence and precipitation that bring some of that radiation down to Earth. So even the IPCC, for all its faults, is not (in this respect, at any rate) repealing the laws of thermodynamics by allowing a cooler system to warm a warmer system, which indeed would be an unphysical concept.
Gary Smith politely raised the question whether the apparently sharp ups and downs in the paleoclimate temperature indicated strongly-positive feedbacks. With respect, the answer is No, for two reasons. First, the graph I used was inevitably compressed: in fact, most of the temperature changes in that graph took place over hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. Secondly, it is the maximum variance either side of the long-run mean, not the superficially-apparent wildness of the variances within the mean, that establishes whether or not there is a constraint on the maximum net-positivity of temperature feedbacks.
Nick Stokes asked where the limiting value 0.1 for the closed-loop gain in the climate object came from. It is about an order of magnitude above the usual design limit for net-positive feedbacks in electronic circuits that are not intended to experience runaway feedbacks or to oscillate either side of the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation, which occurs where the loop gain is unity.
David Hoffer wondered what evidence the IPCC had for assuming a linear rise in global temperature over the 21st century given that the radiative forcing from CO2 increases only at a logarithmic (i.e. sub-linear) rate. The IPCC pretends that all six of its “emissions scenarios” are to be given equal weight, but its own preference for the A2 scenario is clear, particularly in the relevant chapter of its 2007 report (ch. 10). See, in particular, fig. 10.26, which shows an exponential rise in both CO2 and temperature, when one might have expected the logarithmicity of the CO2 increase to cancel the exponentiality of the temperature increase. However, on the A2 scenario it is only the anthropogenic fraction of the CO2 concentration that is increased exponentially, and this has the paradoxical effect of making temperature rise near-exponentially too – but only if one assumes the very high climate sensitivity that is impossible given the fundamental constraint on the net-positivity of temperature feedbacks.
DR asks whether anyone has ever actually replicated experimentally the greenhouse effect mentioned by Arrhenius, who in 1895/6 first calculated how much warming a doubling of CO2 concentration would cause. Yes, the greenhouse effect was first demonstrated empirically by John Tyndale at the Royal Institution, London (just round the corner from my club) as far back as 1859. His apparatus can still be seen there. The experiment is quite easily replicated, so we know (even if the SB equation and the existence of a readily-measurable temperature lapse-rate with altitude did not tell us) that the greenhouse effect is real. The real debate is not on whether there is a greenhouse effect (there is), but on how much warming our rather small perturbation of the atmosphere with additional concentrations of greenhouse gases will cause (not a lot).
Werner Brozek asks whether the quite small variations in global surface temperature either side of the billion-year mean indicate that “tipping-points” do not exist. In mathematics and physics the term “tipping-point” is really only used by those wanting to make a political point, usually from a climate-extremist position. The old mathematical term of art, still used by many, was “phase-transition”: now we should usually talk of a “bifurcation” in the evolution of the object under consideration. Since the climate object is mathematically-chaotic (IPCC, 2001, para. 14.2.2.2; Giorgi, 2005; Lorenz, 1963), bifurcations will of course occur: indeed any sufficiently rare extreme-weather event may be a bifurcation. We know that very extreme things can suddenly happen in the climate. For instance, at the end of the Younger Dryas cooling period that brought the last Ice Age to an end, temperatures in Antarctica as inferred from variations in the ratios of different isotopes of oxygen in air trapped in layers under the ice, rose by 5 K (9 F) in just three years. “Now, that,” as Ian Plimer likes to say in his lectures, “is climate change!”
But the idea that our very small perturbation in temperature will somehow cause more bifurcations is not warranted by the underlying mathematics of chaos theory. In my own lectures I often illustrate this with a spectacular picture drawn on the Argand plane by a very simple chaotic function, the Mandelbrot fractal function. The starting and ending values for the pixels at top right and bottom left respectively are identical to 12 digits of precision; yet the digits beyond 12 are enough to produce multiple highly-visible bifurcations.
And we know that some forms of extreme weather are likely to become rarer if the world warms. Much – though not all – extreme weather depends not upon absolute temperature but upon differentials in temperature between one altitude or latitude and another. These differentials tend to get smaller as the world warms, so that outside the tropics (and arguably in the tropics too) there will probably be fewer storms.
Roy Clark says there is no such thing as equilibrium in the climate. No, but that does not stop us from trying to do the sums on the assumption of the absence of any perturbation (the equilibrium assumption). Like the square root of -1, it doesn’t really exist, but it is useful to pretend ad argumentum that it might.
Legatus raised a fascinating point about the measurements of ambient radiation that observatories around the world make so that they can calibrate their delicate, heat-sensitive telescopes. He says those measurements show no increase in radiation at the surface (or, rather, on the mountain-tops where most of the telescopes are). However, it is not the surface radiation but the radiation at the top of the atmosphere (or, rather, at the characteristic-emission altitude about 5 km above sea level) that is relevant: and that is 239.4 Watts (no relation) per square meter, by definition, because the characteristic-emission altitude (the outstanding Dick Lindzen’s name for it) is that altitude at which outgoing and incoming fluxes of radiation balance. It is also at that altitude, one optical depth down into the atmosphere, that satellites “see” the radiation coming up into space from the Earth/atmosphere system. Now, as we add greenhouse gases to the atmosphere and cause warming, that altitude will rise a little; and, because the atmosphere contains greenhouse gases and, therefore, its temperature is not uniform, consequent maintenance of the temperature lapse-rate of about 6.5 K/km of altitude will ensure that the surface warms as a result. Since the altitude of the characteristic-emission level varies by day and by night, by latitude, etc., it is impossible to measure directly how it has changed or even where it is.
Of course, it is at the characteristic-emission altitude, and not – repeat not – at the Earth’s surface that the Planck parameter should be derived. So let me do just that. Incoming radiation is, say, 1368 Watts per square meter. However, the Earth presents itself to that radiation as a disk but is actually a sphere, so we divide the radiation by 4 to allow for the ratio of the surface areas of disk and sphere. That gives 342 Watts per square meter. However, 30% of the Sun’s radiation is reflected harmlessly back to space by clouds, snow, sparkling sea surfaces, my lovely wife’s smile, etc., so the flux of relevant radiation at the characteristic-emission altitude is 342(1 – 0.3) = 239.4 Watts per square meter.
From this value, we can calculate the Earth’s characteristic-emission temperature directly without even having to measure it (which is just as well, because measuring even surface temperature is problematic). We use the fundamental equation of radiative transfer, the only equation to be named after a Slovene. Stefan found the equation by empirical methods and, a decade or so later, his Austrian pupil Ludwig Boltzmann proved it theoretically by reference to Planck’s blackbody law (hence the name “Planck parameter”, engagingly mis-spelled “plank” by one blogger.
The equation says that radiative flux is equal to the emissivity of the characteristic-emission surface (which we can take as unity without much error when thinking about long-wave radiation), times the Stefan-Boltzmann constant 5.67 x 10^–8 Watts per square meter per Kelvin to the fourth power, times temperature in Kelvin to the fourth power. So characteristic-emission temperature is equal to the flux divided by the emissivity and by the Stefan-Boltzmann constant, all to the power 1/4.: thus, [239.4 / (1 x 5.67 x 10^–8)]^¼ = 254.9 K or thereby.
Any mathematician taking a glance at this equation will at once notice that one needs quite a large change in radiative flux to achieve a very small change in temperature. To find out how small, one takes the first differential of the equation, which (assuming emissivity to be constant) is simply the temperature divided by four times the flux: so, 254.9 / (4 x 239.4) = 0.2662 Kelvin per Watt per square meter. However, the IPCC (2007, p. 631, footnote) takes 0.3125 and, in its usual exasperating way, without explaining why. So a couple of weeks ago I asked Roy Spencer and John Christy for 30 years of latitudinally-distributed surface temperature data and spent a weekend calculating the Planck parameter at the characteristic-emission altitude for each of 67 zones of latitude, allowing for latitudinal variations in insolation and adjusting for variations in the surface areas of the zones. My answer, based on the equinoxes and admittedly ignoring seasonal variations in the zenith angles of the Sun at each latitude, was 0.316. So I’ve checked, and the IPCC has the Planck parameter right. Therefore, it is of course the IPCC’s value that I used in my calculations in my commentary for Remote Sensing, except in one place.
Kiehl & Trenberth (1997) publish a celebrated Earth/atmosphere energy-budget diagram in which they show 390 Watts per square meter of outgoing radiative flux from the surface, and state that this is the “blackbody” value. From this, we know that – contrary to the intriguing suggestion made by Legatus that one should simply measure it – they did not attempt to find this value by measurement. Instead, they were taking surface emissivity as unity (for that is what defines a blackbody), and calculating the outgoing flux using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation. The surface temperature, which we can measure (albeit with some uncertainty) is 288 K. So, in effect, Kiehl and Trenberth are saying that they used the SB equation at the Earth’s surface to determine the outgoing surface flux, thus: 1 x 5.67 x 10^–8 x 288^4 = 390.1 Watts per square meter.
Two problems with this. First, the equation holds good only at the characteristic-emission altitude, and not at the surface. That is why, once I had satisfied myself that the IPCC’s value at that altitude was correct, I said in my commentary for Remote Sensing that the IPCC’s value was correct, and I am surprised to find that a blogger had tried to leave her readers with a quite different impression even after I had clarified this specific point to her.
Secondly, since Kiehl and Trenberth are using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation at the surface in order to obtain their imagined (and perhaps imaginary) outgoing flux of 390 Watts per square meter, it is of course legitimate to take the surface differential of the equation that they themselves imply that they had used, for in that we we can determine the implicit Planck parameter in their diagram. This is simply done: 288 / (4 x 390) = 0.1846 Kelvin per Watt per square meter. Strictly speaking, one should also add the non-radiative transports of 78 Watts per square meter for evapo-transpiration and 24 for thermal convection (see Kimoto, 2009, for a discussion) to the 390 Watts per square meter of radiative flux, reducing Kiehl and Trenberth’s implicit Planck parameter from 0.18 to 0.15. Either 0.15 or 0.18 gives a climate sensitivity ~1 K. So the Planck parameter I derived at this point in my commentary, of course, not the correct one: nor is it “Monckton’s” Planck parameter, and the blogger who said it was had been plainly told all that I have told you, though in a rather more compressed form because she had indicated she was familiar with differential calculus. It is not Monckton’s Planck parameter, nor even Planck’s Planck parameter, and it is certainly not a plank parameter – but it is Kiehl & Trenberth’s Planck parameter. If they were right (and, of course, I was explicit in using the conditional in my commentary to indicate, in the politest possible way, that they were not), then, like it or not, they were implying a climate sensitivity a great deal lower than they had perhaps realized – in fact a sensitivity of around 1 K. I do regret that a quite unnecessary mountain has been made out of this surely simple little molehill – just one of more than a dozen points in a wide-ranging commentary.
And just to confirm that it should really have been obvious to everyone that the IPCC’s value of the Planck parameter is my value, I gave that value as the correct one both in my commentary and in my recent blog posting on the fundamental constraint on feedback loop gain. You will find it, with its derivation, right at the beginning of that posting, and encapsulated in Eq. (3).
Thank you all again for your interest. This discussion has generally been on a far higher plane than is usual with climate discussions. I hope that these further points in answer to commentators will be helpful.
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The climate science debates are all incompetent, and intellectual avoidance of the critical, definitive evidence against the greenhouse effect is on display everywhere, due to a tragically blind faith in the peer-reviewed literature (which after all is responsible for the incompetent IPCC-sponsored “consensus”). The truth is that peer-review is known to be fundamentally corrupted, and the climate literature is absolutely full of scientific garbage (the Kiehl-Trenberth energy budget diagram the prime example), so Christopher Monckton’s approach of trying to work from the peer-review literature to form a true “consensus” is in vain. At bottom, his efforts are just the avoidance behavior of “lukewarm” believers in the greenhouse effect, who simply have not been able and/or willing to really question the radiative transfer theory that must fall right along with the greenhouse effect hypothesis. The only point he makes that is cogent in the context of the truth that there is no greenhouse effect (an increase in atmospheric temperature due to an increase in carbon dioxide) is that the Earth’s surface cannot be treated as a blackbody. With that clear admission, late in coming and under-emphasized as the prime example of THE key error in the radiation transfer theory, lukewarm belief in the IPCC-sponsored greenhouse effect must fall, as my elementary and proper comparison of temperatures in the atmospheres of Venus and Earth makes obvious — yes, obvious, and it should have been obvious 20 years ago when the Venus temperature-pressure data was obtained (that is how incompetent climate science and all the debates really are). From that analysis, the “CO2 climate sensitivity” may be observed to be -0.03°C +/- 0.1°C, or more properly, ESSENTIALLY ZERO. It doesn’t exist. The real effect of increased atmospheric CO2, I claim, is to increase the efficiency/speed of heat transfer within the atmosphere, by increasing the radiative component of that heat transfer — as one of my readers has put it, it merely acts as a heat transfer “lubricant”; it does not change the fundamental equilibrium heat distribution dictated by the governing hydrostatic condition (as long understood in the definition of the Standard Atmosphere). Climate science got off-track when it ignored the fundamental implications of the Standard Atmosphere, and embraced the very idea of “runaway climate”, which was needed so that other scientists could pretend to know the geological past of Earth. That ancient past is not known, and the entire edifice of the earth sciences is a towering monument to empty speculations piled upon unsupported assumptions.
RJ says:
September 30, 2011 at 2:42 am
R. de Haan says:
September 29, 2011 at 10:03 pm
“Thanks. An excellent post”
You’re most welcome but you should thank Prof. Nasif Nahle because he performed the experiment, the measurements and wrote the report.
I only play messenger but do understand the classic greenhouse gas theory.
I only think bigger, more dominating processes dominate leaving the greenhouse gas theory for what it really is. A big, big storm in a very small glass of water, irrelevant by all means and not wort a single dime spending on.
And while we burn all this energy on the subject the political AGW doctrine increases in power.
We have to stop it.
I want my incandescent light bulb back, my electricity and fuel prices down and the freaking bird shredders out of my sight. I want a complete elimination of all emission standards which are now based on CO2 emissions eliminated, I want all eco taxes and all related hubris about clean energy and sustainability eliminated. I want to see an end to the mandatory bio fuel use processing food crops stopped together with all the peak oil hubris. I also want an end to the backslapping and finger pointing of humanity “destroying the planet” and UN Agenda 21 that is intended to put us all in green shackles. And finally I want the quest from the eco fascists for World Government terminated ASAP.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Here’s what lucia won’t let me post after Arthur Smith’s latest comment:
Arthur clouds the issue with water vapor feedback.
==========
Takes me back,
why? I know not,
to Donald Crowhurst’s log.
Specifically the page headed “The Knot” and the idea that Maths is the only certain ground that man today occupies in the Kingdom of God.
Septic Matthew says:
September 29, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Phil says: “First the temperature at 5km above sea level is linked to the temperature at the surface via the lapse rate, if the temperature at 5km goes up so does that at the surface.”
That’s the equilibrium case. With disequilibrium “forcings” provided daily by sunrise and sunset, cloud formation and precipitation, there may never be equilibrium. You could have the 5km and surface temperatures swing in opposite directions for a few hours (leading eventually to weeks and years), and the equilibrium assumption be wrong by only a few percent, yet useless for human planing.
Temperature inversions do exist but for the most part the lapse rate applies
Monckton of Brenchley says:
September 30, 2011 at 6:03 am
Thanks for replying
” I realize there is a small, tiresome, wilfully ignorant faction that does not want to admit the existence of the greenhouse effect at all”
There is a group that do not want to admit that they might have made a mistake by accepting without question this GHG backradiation theory.
If there are 100 balls in a box and 25 are thrown upwards and 1 returns. All this will do at best is slow the cooling rate very slightly as 81 balls are now in the box not 80 (it does not increase the number to 101 and cause warming). But as all this happens at the speed of light the reduced cooling rate will be tiny and make almost no difference to the average temperature over a period. It will never increase the highest possible daily temperature.
GHG backradiation is mostly fiction. Doubling CO2 will make no difference whatsoever. How can it
A cooler atmosphere can not warm a warmer surface. And also this
“Likewise, it is important to recall the law of conservation of energy, which is to the effect that energy can neither be created nor destroyed”
The sun and only the sun warms the surface. GHG backradiation at best slows the cooling rate by a fraction of a second.
And CO2 becoming a miniature radiator. Please confirm that this is a joke.
“and 25 are thrown upwards ”
Ops 20 ball are thrown upwards
Re: positive feedback, empirical CS estimates
You propose a theoretical upper limit of 0.1 for climatic positive feedback, based on analogy to electronic-circuit design parameters. This appears arbitrary, but I see you have given the matter considerable thought. Can you please post a link to your longer paper on this topic?
I’m not questioning that there has to be a small upper limit to positive feedback — a large positive feedback would lead to Venus-like conditions, which (obviously) hasn’t happened. Based on empirical studies, I’m comfortable with a “best guess” of around a 1.5 deg. C temperature rise for doubling CO2. These empirical estimates also have problems, but at least they are based on actual observations, as opposed to theoretical estimates.
Climatologist John Nielsen-Gammon has an interesting layman’s discussion of positive feedback at http://blog.chron.com/climateabyss/2010/09/positive-feedback/
I like his Jimi Hendrix analogy, but he loses me at the internet reader-response bit.
Incidentally, Prof. Nielsen-Gammon’s informal “best guess” for CS is around 2 deg. C, within a range of 1.5 to 4:
http://blog.chron.com/climateabyss/2011/08/roger-pielke-jr-s-inkblot/
Thanks for your interesting article and responses,
Peter D. Tillman
Professional geologist, amateur climatologist
@Monckton of Brenchley (why do I keep thinking it is bletchley? A cryptic question?)
Serious request: After finding my internet down all day, by chance yours was the only web page left and having reread it properly when awake, it is really such a tremendous piece of work that it needs making available to a wider audience who don’t have the benefit of your first class classical education.
But before I embark on such an enterprise, can I ask whether you or anyone else has already produced it in a simpler form?
Mike Haseler
Quote: “The real debate is not on whether there is a greenhouse effect (there is), but on how much warming our rather small perturbation of the atmosphere with additional concentrations of greenhouse gases will cause (not a lot).”
Surely, you have not proven in any way, scientifically, that the warming of CO2 (by re-radiating earth-shine at 14-15 um) is greater than the cooling (by re-radiating sunshine, various wavelengths 0-5 um). Neither have you given any indication of how much heat is chewed up by the CO2 by taking part in the life cycle process( plants and trees need CO2 and warmth to grow)
So how do you know for sure that the net effect of more CO2 is warming rather than cooling?
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
Lucia Liljegren is in danger of losing many normally loyal readers here.
Kimoto makes it quite clear after (18) that he is aware it is an approximation and that the other fluxes are not T^4.
Why is this fact not mentioned?
The reason he uses T^4 as the first approximation is mainly because this is the largest of the fluxes. If a different form was used the result would not be hugely
different – if we suppose the other fluxes are linear in T, for example, Kimoto’s equation becomes
lambda = -(4 Fs,r + Fs,e + Fs,t)/T
and his 6.8 becomes 5.8, a change of only about 15%.
Furthermore, the numerical values of Fs,e and Fs,t are not well known and neither is the form of their dependence on T.
My question yesterday regarding whether she contacted Kimoto to ask him about this was not answered.
Why devote so much time and energy to this anyway?
CM has posted something at WUWT which has no chance of publication, yet she demands that he justify every step of the mathematical arguments in a paper written by someone else! (Something which we are aware he is not able to do, so her attempts to catch him out are quite pointless).
He has explained where he got the numbers from, and yet the false accusation in her thread title (‘out of a hat’) remains.
Why does she not insist that climate scientists whose papers ARE published, explain every step and assumption in their derivations?
I hope she will take note of the comments from Julian Flood, venter and oxonmoron here, and from Noelene, MikeC, gallopingcamel, Heretic and PMH on her blog, which normally is a good example of balance and fairness, but when the subject of CM arises, all this seems to be abandoned.
Kim,
Sad to see that your posts are getting deleted at Lucia’s place.
Lucia’s becoming no different than RC or Tamino in deleting uncomfortable posts and questions. She just wants her own echo chamber it looks like.
How about a phone call, or a meet-up? One of the things I love about blogs is that people can argue without coming to blows, or, worse yet, agreement.
=================
Venter, not deleted. I can always post once, then I go to timeout. I can have both hands tied behind my back and my mouth filled with straw and still make my point. I dance, joyfully.
=====================
Spot on PaulM. Lucia’s completely lost it here. She reacted to CM like a bull reacts to red flag, purely based on emotion, throwing caution and reason to the winds and has come out of the whole issue with a poorer reputation.She’s done everything wrong.
First she criticised CM’s english as florid and opaque,when her own english on her blog posts on this issue was of extremely poor quality, as pointed out by Dave Wendt in the earlier thread. English language is not a field where she should be duelling with CM as she’s nowhere compared to his command of the language.
Then she criticised CM’s representation of facts, before backing down, rightly.
Then she claimed that she did not attack CM, when it was obvious to everyone that she was rude, insulting and attacking.
Then she took off on him to explain every mathematical equation in a published paper which he cited, when she did not seem to have asked the same questions to the paper’s author or the journal concerned for the past 2 years.
Then she selectively quotes Kimoto, leaving out vital information given in the paper about the approximations, like you mentioned. That, in my books, reeks of dishonesty, something she’s literally accusing CM of.
Then she refuses to retract the false accusation of pulling numbers out of the hat in her thread title, after CM shows where he got the numbers from.
Then she doesn’t even seem to get it that CM used IPCC’s own figures for the Planck parameter, for the purposes of this discussion at WUWT, even though he repeated it multiple times.
Then she goes on a tangent about E&E being a bad journal with 90% of articles wrong, without providing basis or evidence for that 90% claim. That argument itself was specious and irrelevant to CM’s article here. But it showed the level of her desperation. On one hand, she accuses CM of pulling numbers out of the hat with no basis. In the same breath, she pulls out numbers with no basis, making a sweeping statement of 90% wrong against E&E, giving no evidence. How’s that for hypocrisy? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and she should either put up or retract. When people want to question her about it, she deletes posts and gags them.
And lastly it’s bad ethics, manners and also cowardly to run away to her own blog and challenge CM on obscure maths from her ramparts, insisting only on a narrow and irrelevant viewpoint of hers about the maths of Kimoto, when CM’s original post was here at WUWT and it encompassed a different issue of which Kimoto was only a cite. If she had any class or manners, she should have stated her arguments here. CM’s article was at WUWT. If she wants to contest it she should do it here. Anthony moderates with a light touch and does not delete or censor posts unless they are abusive.
All in all, it’s been a poor and graceless performance from Lucia.
That is a chamber orchestra which simply outplays any dissonance from ‘lukewarming and do something about it’. The trouble is twofold, warming is good, and we are cooling.
===============
Lord Monckton wrote
quote
“Omne tulit punctum qui miscuit utile dulci”
unquote
You, my lord, are too mischievous for your own good.
JF
(Who failed the Latin stream in the third form….)
[Reply: You should give the translation when posting: “He has gained every point, who has combined the useful with the agreeable.” ~dbs, mod.]
Henry P. @ur momisugly 8:42.
I think we will know the answer to that one when we know what rising CO2 does to humidity. I’ve been waiting, though, for CO2 to earn demonization as a cooling agent. After all, rising CO2 in the paleontological litchurchur is always followed by cooling, sooner or later.
NB, this comment is only half in jest.
=============
Venter, she has posted it here.
===========
Phil says: Temperature inversions do exist but for the most part the lapse rate applies
“for the most part” is a rephrasing of what I have been writing. It’s the “other part” that I have been emphasizing: the “other part” (what I have been calling “model inaccuracy” and such) is large enough to call into question whether anyone actually knows what will happen if more CO2 is added to Earth atmosphere. By the mechanism of increasing the power in uprising columns of warm, moist air (the well-known thermals), increasing cloud cover, and increasing rainfall, increased CO2 could cool the lower troposphere and surface and warm the upper troposphere, and the “lapse rate” would still “apply”. The mathematical models can have an error rate of only 3% or less and still predict the wrong sign of the change induced (if any) by increased CO2.
I should add that, if increased temperatures produce increased cloud cover and increased rain, WUWT should revisit the paper in Nature last winter that showed an increase, across decades, in the maximum recorded rainfalls in the American Central regions. Willis Eschenbach wrote a somewhat insightful but seriously flawed critique of it here on WUWT. While no paper can be perfect, that was fundamentally sound, and will hopefully be followed by other papers using the same methodology (using the generalized extreme value distribution to model extremes.) While indirect (we need simultaneous measures of temperature and rainfall as in the TAO data that Willis is analyzing), it supports his idea that increased temperatures provide negative/quenching feedbacks to inhibit further temperature increases.
Lastly, I was musing on some episodes in the history of science. It has often happened that major contributions were made by amateurs and others who were intensely disparaged by the majority of professionals in the field. Florence Nightingale, for example, knew nothing about either soldiering or medicine, and the mechanism by which cleanliness improved the survival chances of wounded soldiers was totally unknown. You can think of other examples, though not all were disparaged (Wright Brothers, Gregor Mendel.) Christopher Monckton of Brenchley is following their example, and to great effect, it seems to me.
Heh, lucia’s got a rhetorical question over there: What Would Trenberth Say?
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henry@Kim
If you understood how the GH effect works and the principle of subsequent re-radiation,
you are actually one of very few people,
as I experienced again just now here,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/28/video-analysis-and-scene-replication-suggests-that-al-gores-climate-reality-project-fabricated-their-climate-101-video-simple-experiment/#comment-755822
dscott wrote: When you insist on measuring the response of the atmosphere in C or K to Watts/meter^2 you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
On that I think you are mistaken. If the rate of energy inflow increases, the total energy will accumulate sufficiently to raise the mean temperature until the rate of energy outflow equals (at least averaged over the years) the rate of energy inflow. The temperature at which that happens will be measured in C or K, even though the rate of inflow in measured in Watts/meter^2.
Imagine a blanket, HenryP, woven of your own guilt. Isn’t it oppressive?
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A thought about politeness: on the internet everything can be made to sound like an insult, “including ‘the’ and ‘and'”. (I think that’s from Dorothy Parker, about Lillian Hellman.) If you have been accused of writing an insult, the best thing to do is apologize and try more respectfully next time. There is probably no way left to refer to Lord Christopher Monckton of Brenchley that has not been used in mockery by someone.
Consider his phrase “the inimitable Willis Eschenbach”: Christopher Monckton meant it in context respectfully, as probably everyone recognized, but “the inimitable” has been used mockingly millions of times. You have to read multiple interchanges to appreciate their mutual respect.
I suspect that there is no way left that Lucia Liljegren and Lord Monckton can refer to each other in internet postings that does not sound like a cut. Maybe they can meet in person some day and patch things up. Here’s hoping.