By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
I am very grateful for the many thoughtful postings in response to my outline of the fundamental theoretical upper bound of little more than 1.2 K on climate sensitivity imposed by the process-engineering theory of maintaining the stability of an object on which feedbacks operate. Here are some answers to points raised by correspondents.
Iskandar says, “None of these feedbacks or forcings are ever given in the form of a formula.” In fact, there are functions for the forcings arising from each of the principal species of greenhouse gas: they are tabulated in Myhre et al., 1998, and cited with approval in IPCC (2001. 2007). However, Iskandar is right about temperature feedbacks. Here, the nearest thing to a formula for a feedback is the Clausius-Clapeyron relation, which states that the space occupied by the atmosphere is capable of carrying near-exponentially more water vapor as it warms. However, as Paltridge et al. (2009) have indicated, merely because the atmosphere can carry more water vapor there is no certainty that it does. The IPCC’s values for this and other feedbacks are questionable. For instance, Spencer and Braswell (2010, 2011, pace Dessler, 2010, 2011) have challenged the IPCC’s estimate of the cloud feedback. They find it as strongly negative (attenuating the warming that triggers it) as the IPCC finds it strongly positive (amplifying the original warming), implying a climate sensitivity of less than 1 K. Since feedbacks account for almost two-thirds of all warming in the IPCC’s method, and since it is extremely difficult to measure – still less to provide a formula for – the values of individual temperature feedbacks, an effort such as mine to identify a constraint on the magnitude of all feedbacks taken together is at least worth trying.
Doug says we cannot be sure when the dolomitic rocks were formed. What is certain, however, according to Professor Ian Plimer, who gave me the information, is that they cannot form unless the partial pressure of CO2 above the ocean in which they form is 30%, compared with today’s 0.04%. Yet, during the long era when CO2 concentrations were that high, glaciers came and went, twice, at sea level, and at the equator. Even allowing for the fact that the Sun was a little fainter then, and that the Earth’s albedo was higher, the presence of those glaciers where there are none today does raise some questions about the forcing effect of very high CO2 concentrations, and, a fortiori, about the forcing effect of today’s mere trace concentration. However, in general Doug’s point is right: it is unwise to put too much weight on results from the paleoclimate, particularly when there is so much scientific dispute about the results from today’s climate that we can measure directly.
Dirk H and the inimitable Willis Eschenbach, whose fascinating contributions to this column should surely be collected and published as a best-seller, point out that I am treating feedbacks as linear when some of them are non-linear. For the math underlying non-linear feedbacks, which would have been too lengthy to include in my posting, see e.g. Roe (2009). Roe’s teacher was Dick Lindzen, who is justifiably proud of him. However, for the purpose of the present argument, it matters not whether feedbacks are linear or non-linear: what matters is the sum total of feedbacks as they are in our own time, which is multiplied by the Planck parameter (of which more later) to yield the closed-loop gain whose upper bound was the focus of my posting. Of course I agree with Willis that the non-linearity of many feedbacks, not to mention that all or nearly all of them cannot be measured directly, makes solving the climate-sensitivity equation difficult. But, again, that is why I have tried the approach of examining a powerful theoretical constraint on the absolute magnitude of the feedback-sum. Since the loop gain in the climate object cannot exceed 0.1 (at maximum) without rendering the climate so prone to instability that runaway feedbacks that have not occurred in the past would be very likely to have occurred, the maximum feedback sum before mutual amplification cannot exceed 0.32: yet the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of the feedback sum is 2.81.
Roger Knights rightly takes me to task for a yob’s comma that should not have been present in my posting. I apologize. He also challenges my use of the word “species” for the various types of greenhouse gas: but the word “species” is regularly used by the eminent professors of climatology at whose feet I have sat.
R. de Haan cites an author whose opinion is that warming back-radiation returned from the atmosphere back to the surface and the idea that a cooler system can warm a warmer system are “unphysical concepts”. I know that the manufacturers of some infra-red detectors say the detectors do not measure back-radiation but something else: however, both Mr. de Haan’s points are based on a common misconception about what the admittedly badly-named “greenhouse effect” is. The brilliant Chris Essex explains it thus: when outgoing radiation in the right wavelengths of the near-infrared meets a molecule of a greenhouse gas such as CO2, it sets up a quantum resonance in the gas molecule, turning it into a miniature radiator. This beautifully clear analogy, when I recently used it in a presentation in New Zealand, won the support of two professors of climatology in the audience. The little radiators that the outgoing radiation turns on are not, of course, restricted only to radiating outwards to space. They radiate in all directions, including downwards – and that is before we take into account non-radiative transports such as subsidence and precipitation that bring some of that radiation down to Earth. So even the IPCC, for all its faults, is not (in this respect, at any rate) repealing the laws of thermodynamics by allowing a cooler system to warm a warmer system, which indeed would be an unphysical concept.
Gary Smith politely raised the question whether the apparently sharp ups and downs in the paleoclimate temperature indicated strongly-positive feedbacks. With respect, the answer is No, for two reasons. First, the graph I used was inevitably compressed: in fact, most of the temperature changes in that graph took place over hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. Secondly, it is the maximum variance either side of the long-run mean, not the superficially-apparent wildness of the variances within the mean, that establishes whether or not there is a constraint on the maximum net-positivity of temperature feedbacks.
Nick Stokes asked where the limiting value 0.1 for the closed-loop gain in the climate object came from. It is about an order of magnitude above the usual design limit for net-positive feedbacks in electronic circuits that are not intended to experience runaway feedbacks or to oscillate either side of the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation, which occurs where the loop gain is unity.
David Hoffer wondered what evidence the IPCC had for assuming a linear rise in global temperature over the 21st century given that the radiative forcing from CO2 increases only at a logarithmic (i.e. sub-linear) rate. The IPCC pretends that all six of its “emissions scenarios” are to be given equal weight, but its own preference for the A2 scenario is clear, particularly in the relevant chapter of its 2007 report (ch. 10). See, in particular, fig. 10.26, which shows an exponential rise in both CO2 and temperature, when one might have expected the logarithmicity of the CO2 increase to cancel the exponentiality of the temperature increase. However, on the A2 scenario it is only the anthropogenic fraction of the CO2 concentration that is increased exponentially, and this has the paradoxical effect of making temperature rise near-exponentially too – but only if one assumes the very high climate sensitivity that is impossible given the fundamental constraint on the net-positivity of temperature feedbacks.
DR asks whether anyone has ever actually replicated experimentally the greenhouse effect mentioned by Arrhenius, who in 1895/6 first calculated how much warming a doubling of CO2 concentration would cause. Yes, the greenhouse effect was first demonstrated empirically by John Tyndale at the Royal Institution, London (just round the corner from my club) as far back as 1859. His apparatus can still be seen there. The experiment is quite easily replicated, so we know (even if the SB equation and the existence of a readily-measurable temperature lapse-rate with altitude did not tell us) that the greenhouse effect is real. The real debate is not on whether there is a greenhouse effect (there is), but on how much warming our rather small perturbation of the atmosphere with additional concentrations of greenhouse gases will cause (not a lot).
Werner Brozek asks whether the quite small variations in global surface temperature either side of the billion-year mean indicate that “tipping-points” do not exist. In mathematics and physics the term “tipping-point” is really only used by those wanting to make a political point, usually from a climate-extremist position. The old mathematical term of art, still used by many, was “phase-transition”: now we should usually talk of a “bifurcation” in the evolution of the object under consideration. Since the climate object is mathematically-chaotic (IPCC, 2001, para. 14.2.2.2; Giorgi, 2005; Lorenz, 1963), bifurcations will of course occur: indeed any sufficiently rare extreme-weather event may be a bifurcation. We know that very extreme things can suddenly happen in the climate. For instance, at the end of the Younger Dryas cooling period that brought the last Ice Age to an end, temperatures in Antarctica as inferred from variations in the ratios of different isotopes of oxygen in air trapped in layers under the ice, rose by 5 K (9 F) in just three years. “Now, that,” as Ian Plimer likes to say in his lectures, “is climate change!”
But the idea that our very small perturbation in temperature will somehow cause more bifurcations is not warranted by the underlying mathematics of chaos theory. In my own lectures I often illustrate this with a spectacular picture drawn on the Argand plane by a very simple chaotic function, the Mandelbrot fractal function. The starting and ending values for the pixels at top right and bottom left respectively are identical to 12 digits of precision; yet the digits beyond 12 are enough to produce multiple highly-visible bifurcations.
And we know that some forms of extreme weather are likely to become rarer if the world warms. Much – though not all – extreme weather depends not upon absolute temperature but upon differentials in temperature between one altitude or latitude and another. These differentials tend to get smaller as the world warms, so that outside the tropics (and arguably in the tropics too) there will probably be fewer storms.
Roy Clark says there is no such thing as equilibrium in the climate. No, but that does not stop us from trying to do the sums on the assumption of the absence of any perturbation (the equilibrium assumption). Like the square root of -1, it doesn’t really exist, but it is useful to pretend ad argumentum that it might.
Legatus raised a fascinating point about the measurements of ambient radiation that observatories around the world make so that they can calibrate their delicate, heat-sensitive telescopes. He says those measurements show no increase in radiation at the surface (or, rather, on the mountain-tops where most of the telescopes are). However, it is not the surface radiation but the radiation at the top of the atmosphere (or, rather, at the characteristic-emission altitude about 5 km above sea level) that is relevant: and that is 239.4 Watts (no relation) per square meter, by definition, because the characteristic-emission altitude (the outstanding Dick Lindzen’s name for it) is that altitude at which outgoing and incoming fluxes of radiation balance. It is also at that altitude, one optical depth down into the atmosphere, that satellites “see” the radiation coming up into space from the Earth/atmosphere system. Now, as we add greenhouse gases to the atmosphere and cause warming, that altitude will rise a little; and, because the atmosphere contains greenhouse gases and, therefore, its temperature is not uniform, consequent maintenance of the temperature lapse-rate of about 6.5 K/km of altitude will ensure that the surface warms as a result. Since the altitude of the characteristic-emission level varies by day and by night, by latitude, etc., it is impossible to measure directly how it has changed or even where it is.
Of course, it is at the characteristic-emission altitude, and not – repeat not – at the Earth’s surface that the Planck parameter should be derived. So let me do just that. Incoming radiation is, say, 1368 Watts per square meter. However, the Earth presents itself to that radiation as a disk but is actually a sphere, so we divide the radiation by 4 to allow for the ratio of the surface areas of disk and sphere. That gives 342 Watts per square meter. However, 30% of the Sun’s radiation is reflected harmlessly back to space by clouds, snow, sparkling sea surfaces, my lovely wife’s smile, etc., so the flux of relevant radiation at the characteristic-emission altitude is 342(1 – 0.3) = 239.4 Watts per square meter.
From this value, we can calculate the Earth’s characteristic-emission temperature directly without even having to measure it (which is just as well, because measuring even surface temperature is problematic). We use the fundamental equation of radiative transfer, the only equation to be named after a Slovene. Stefan found the equation by empirical methods and, a decade or so later, his Austrian pupil Ludwig Boltzmann proved it theoretically by reference to Planck’s blackbody law (hence the name “Planck parameter”, engagingly mis-spelled “plank” by one blogger.
The equation says that radiative flux is equal to the emissivity of the characteristic-emission surface (which we can take as unity without much error when thinking about long-wave radiation), times the Stefan-Boltzmann constant 5.67 x 10^–8 Watts per square meter per Kelvin to the fourth power, times temperature in Kelvin to the fourth power. So characteristic-emission temperature is equal to the flux divided by the emissivity and by the Stefan-Boltzmann constant, all to the power 1/4.: thus, [239.4 / (1 x 5.67 x 10^–8)]^¼ = 254.9 K or thereby.
Any mathematician taking a glance at this equation will at once notice that one needs quite a large change in radiative flux to achieve a very small change in temperature. To find out how small, one takes the first differential of the equation, which (assuming emissivity to be constant) is simply the temperature divided by four times the flux: so, 254.9 / (4 x 239.4) = 0.2662 Kelvin per Watt per square meter. However, the IPCC (2007, p. 631, footnote) takes 0.3125 and, in its usual exasperating way, without explaining why. So a couple of weeks ago I asked Roy Spencer and John Christy for 30 years of latitudinally-distributed surface temperature data and spent a weekend calculating the Planck parameter at the characteristic-emission altitude for each of 67 zones of latitude, allowing for latitudinal variations in insolation and adjusting for variations in the surface areas of the zones. My answer, based on the equinoxes and admittedly ignoring seasonal variations in the zenith angles of the Sun at each latitude, was 0.316. So I’ve checked, and the IPCC has the Planck parameter right. Therefore, it is of course the IPCC’s value that I used in my calculations in my commentary for Remote Sensing, except in one place.
Kiehl & Trenberth (1997) publish a celebrated Earth/atmosphere energy-budget diagram in which they show 390 Watts per square meter of outgoing radiative flux from the surface, and state that this is the “blackbody” value. From this, we know that – contrary to the intriguing suggestion made by Legatus that one should simply measure it – they did not attempt to find this value by measurement. Instead, they were taking surface emissivity as unity (for that is what defines a blackbody), and calculating the outgoing flux using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation. The surface temperature, which we can measure (albeit with some uncertainty) is 288 K. So, in effect, Kiehl and Trenberth are saying that they used the SB equation at the Earth’s surface to determine the outgoing surface flux, thus: 1 x 5.67 x 10^–8 x 288^4 = 390.1 Watts per square meter.
Two problems with this. First, the equation holds good only at the characteristic-emission altitude, and not at the surface. That is why, once I had satisfied myself that the IPCC’s value at that altitude was correct, I said in my commentary for Remote Sensing that the IPCC’s value was correct, and I am surprised to find that a blogger had tried to leave her readers with a quite different impression even after I had clarified this specific point to her.
Secondly, since Kiehl and Trenberth are using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation at the surface in order to obtain their imagined (and perhaps imaginary) outgoing flux of 390 Watts per square meter, it is of course legitimate to take the surface differential of the equation that they themselves imply that they had used, for in that we we can determine the implicit Planck parameter in their diagram. This is simply done: 288 / (4 x 390) = 0.1846 Kelvin per Watt per square meter. Strictly speaking, one should also add the non-radiative transports of 78 Watts per square meter for evapo-transpiration and 24 for thermal convection (see Kimoto, 2009, for a discussion) to the 390 Watts per square meter of radiative flux, reducing Kiehl and Trenberth’s implicit Planck parameter from 0.18 to 0.15. Either 0.15 or 0.18 gives a climate sensitivity ~1 K. So the Planck parameter I derived at this point in my commentary, of course, not the correct one: nor is it “Monckton’s” Planck parameter, and the blogger who said it was had been plainly told all that I have told you, though in a rather more compressed form because she had indicated she was familiar with differential calculus. It is not Monckton’s Planck parameter, nor even Planck’s Planck parameter, and it is certainly not a plank parameter – but it is Kiehl & Trenberth’s Planck parameter. If they were right (and, of course, I was explicit in using the conditional in my commentary to indicate, in the politest possible way, that they were not), then, like it or not, they were implying a climate sensitivity a great deal lower than they had perhaps realized – in fact a sensitivity of around 1 K. I do regret that a quite unnecessary mountain has been made out of this surely simple little molehill – just one of more than a dozen points in a wide-ranging commentary.
And just to confirm that it should really have been obvious to everyone that the IPCC’s value of the Planck parameter is my value, I gave that value as the correct one both in my commentary and in my recent blog posting on the fundamental constraint on feedback loop gain. You will find it, with its derivation, right at the beginning of that posting, and encapsulated in Eq. (3).
Thank you all again for your interest. This discussion has generally been on a far higher plane than is usual with climate discussions. I hope that these further points in answer to commentators will be helpful.
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Posted on September 29, 2011 By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
However, it is not the surface radiation but the radiation at the top of the atmosphere (or, rather, at the characteristic-emission altitude about 5 km above sea level) that is relevant:
Perhaps that is, indeed relevant in terms of global warming, however, global warming is not a problem if it only involves warming at 5km above sea level. We are, instead, supposed to be worried about, and preventing, CATASTROPIC global warming, or CAGW. If the warming is not catastrophic, there is no need for us to control “greenhouse gasses”, as they will produce no harmful effects. We then look at the supposed catastrophic effects of global warming, are they said to take place only at 5k altitude? The only ones that I see as possibly warranting the term “catastrophic”, such as the ice melting and the sea rising, or species extinction, take place at ground level (with the exception of some mountain glaciers perhaps, but I suspect that the amount of ice at the poles dwarfs the ice in such glaciers). In addition, the runaway effect from warming of the sea followed by increased evaporation and more of the greenhouse gas water vapor from this increase in infrared radiation must, obviously, take place at sea level (or below). Therefore, while we may say that AGW takes place at 5k altitude, the only thing we have to be concerned about, CAGW, takes place at ground/sea level. This is true unless it can be shown that catastrophe will occur when there is significantly more infrared at 5k altitude but NOT more infrared at sea level. I do not believe that this is even possible, if there is more infrared at 5km, there must also be more infrared at sea level, if there is not more infrared at sea level, the chance of there being significantly more at 5km altitude is essentially none, or so small an increase as to not be worth worrying about or taking drastic action to control.
Considering that the actual catastrophic effects that necessitate us to do something drastic to prevent it are chiefly or entirely effects of increased infrared at sea level, it is that which we must measure, and which we can measure (so why haven’t we??). If there is no more infrared at sea level (and posts made here state that over 35 years there is not) despite increasing CO2, then, since these catastrophic effects are sea level effects, it does not matter to us what is going on at 5km altitude, we are suffering no catastrophe down here, and thus need not be concerned by increasing CO2.
To sum up:
The sole harmful or catastrophic effect of increased CO2 is said to be increased infrared.
These harmful effects are said to take place chiefly at ground/sea level.
We have measured an increase of CO2.
We can measure the increase of infrared at ground/sea level, which is where we are concerned about.
The current limited information I have is that at ground/sea level, and at altitude (at observatories, usually placed on a height), there is no more infrared than there was formerly at anywhere from 25 to 35 years ago, when there was less CO2.
Conclusion, an increase of CO2 does not cause more infrared at ground level where it is said to be catastrophic, therefore, there is no need to control CO2.
Second conclusion, we need to make a careful study of the amount of infrared over time at various altitudes, at various places, and over as long a time period as possible. So far, I have seen two posters on this site who work with infrared detection gear, and they have reported no increase. However, we need DATA, we need an actual wide ranging study with careful controls, we, in short, need to use the scientific method, rather than rely on the word of two posters to this site. The instruments have been around for some time, at least 35 years, surely someone has kept records of what they have detected with those instruments. If we do not at least attempt to make direct measurements of this, the central idea underlying all of CAGW, what are we really doing, is it science? Without direct measurements, all our theories and equations are just fiction, and resemble this:
Milk production at a dairy farm was low so the farmer wrote to the local university, asking help from academia. A multidisciplinary team of professors was assembled, headed by a theoretical physicist, and two weeks of intensive on-site investigation took place. The scholars then returned to the university, notebooks crammed with data, where the task of writing the report was left to the team leader. Shortly thereafter the farmer received the write-up, and opened it to read on the first line: “Consider a spherical cow in vacuum. . . .”
Still, even though neither you nor anyone else I know of have yet sought data on the central, underlying idea that is said to make CO2 so catastrophic, you have done two things. First, you have shown that, if we take the IPCC at their word, the amount of warming they claim will happen seems to be impossible using their figures and current knowledge. Basically, you have shown that their logic is not nternally self consistant.
Second, you have solved catastrophic global warming, as seen here “However, 30% of the Sun’s radiation is reflected harmlessly back to space by… my lovely wife’s smile”. Soooo, we know what to do to prevent this horrible catastrophe, right?
Nick Stokes asked where the limiting value 0.1 for the closed-loop gain in the climate object came from. It is about an order of magnitude above the usual design limit for net-positive feedbacks in electronic circuits that are not intended to experience runaway feedbacks or to oscillate either side of the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation, which occurs where the loop gain is unity.
Just because that’s a value that a prudent electrical engineer might use in designing a circuit, gives no justification for the assumption that it is the limiting value on earth. As mentioned by others the phase relations are also important in a complex system such as the Earth, a circuit like a Wien oscillator where the positive feedback lags the negative would be more appropriate.
The surface temperature, which we can measure (albeit with some uncertainty) is 288 K. So, in effect, Kiehl and Trenberth are saying that they used the SB equation at the Earth’s surface to determine the outgoing surface flux, thus: 1 x 5.67 x 10^–8 x 288^4 = 390.1 Watts per square meter.
Two problems with this. First, the equation holds good only at the characteristic-emission altitude, and not at the surface.
Why do you assume that the S-B equation doesn’t hold good at the surface, and why do you think that non-radiative losses from the surface should be used to calculate the ‘Planck parameter’?
To Willis Eschenbach, – Many thanks for your distinguished contribution to this thread. You are quite right to point out that climate sensitivity is not likely to be a linear response, and also to discern that there is nevertheless a value in staying as close as possible in all respects to the IPCC’s modus operandi, in order to show that even if one does the sums the IPCC’s way we are not going to see much more than 1 K of manmade warming from CO2 emissions this century. The less we change in their methodology, the less they can come back to us and say they wouldn’t have done it that way.
They’re in galloping retreat because they know it ain’t happenin’, and we can run them off the field altogether if we continue to harry them with their own weapons, showing them with painful clarity that even if we do all the math their way it ain’t gonna happen.
And just wait till I get started in on the economics. Just waiting for a last piece of advice from a former member of the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England, and then I’ll be able to demonstrate very, very simply but very, very compelllingly, using the IPCC’s own methods along with those of the hapless Lord Stern, that the cost of trying to Save The Planet is around one or even two orders of magnitude greater than the cost of doing nothing now and adapting in a focused way later.
You may think the IPCC’s science makes very little sense, and you’re right: but the economics – as the Irish would put it – makes no sense at all at all.
“Nick Stokes asked where the limiting value 0.1 for the closed-loop gain in the climate object came from. It is about an order of magnitude above the usual design limit for net-positive feedbacks in electronic circuits that are not intended to experience runaway feedbacks or to oscillate either side of the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation, which occurs where the loop gain is unity.”
But this is the figure that governs the supposed limit on climate sensitivity in this argument. So the real world climate is held to be determined by a design safety limit used for designing electronic circuits? Plus an “order of magnitude”?
Here was your summary argument:
“If, however, the loop gain in the climate object is no greater than the theoretical maximum value g = 0.1, then, by Eq. (4), the corresponding overall feedback gain factor G is 1.11, and, by Eq. (1), climate sensitivity in response to a CO2 doubling cannot much exceed 1.2 K.”
It all depends on that “theoretical maximum value”. And that’s where it comes from?
Legatus says:
September 29, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Posted on September 29, 2011 By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
However, it is not the surface radiation but the radiation at the top of the atmosphere (or, rather, at the characteristic-emission altitude about 5 km above sea level) that is relevant:
Perhaps that is, indeed relevant in terms of global warming, however, global warming is not a problem if it only involves warming at 5km above sea level. We are, instead, supposed to be worried about, and preventing, CATASTROPIC global warming, or CAGW. If the warming is not catastrophic, there is no need for us to control “greenhouse gasses”, as they will produce no harmful effects. We then look at the supposed catastrophic effects of global warming, are they said to take place only at 5k altitude? The only ones that I see as possibly warranting the term “catastrophic”, such as the ice melting and the sea rising, or species extinction, take place at ground level (with the exception of some mountain glaciers perhaps, but I suspect that the amount of ice at the poles dwarfs the ice in such glaciers).
First the temperature at 5km above sea level is linked to the temperature at the surface via the lapse rate, if the temperature at 5km goes up so does that at the surface.
Secondly the ice which will flood us if it melts is at altitude. the mean altitude of the Greenland ice pack is ~ 2km, and the S Pole is on a plateau at an altitude of ~3km.
Willis Eschenbach says:
September 29, 2011 at 11:01 am
These misunderstandings are due to the use of averages. Yes, we can determine some kind of global average feedback. But the fact we can average it does not make it a constant. It is temperature dependent, and varies non-linearly.
Three things come to mind:
“The average American has one ball and one tit. You now know everything you need to know about statistics.” – from _Mr Natural’s Rules of Women and the Universe_, circa 1977
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better
experiment.” – Lord Ernest Rutherford
As Mark Twain famously wrote of that kind of extrapolation:
In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod.
And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
Stretch out your hand and I will place a silver dollar on it. Now suppose this silver dollar is magically connected to a heat pipe which couples the integrated temperature of all the CO2 in our atmosphere. Nice and warm? Nope. Frostbite? Yes, of course. Let’s call it GWF (Global Warming Frostbite).
To Nick Stokes, – Well, you’d have to do quite a bit of background reading to understand why the constraint on feedbacks in an electrical circuit is akin to the constraint on feedbacks in any other object on which they operate. The IPCC itself uses F.W. Bode’s 1945 tome on feedback amplification in electrical circuits as the justification for its use of the feedback approach. Unfortunately, the climate scientists who wrote that bit of the report were not experienced in the design of electronic circuitry, as David Evans most certainly is, so they had not grasped the significance of the theoretical upper limit of 0.01 on the feedback loop gain. Since process engineers sometimes take a risk and design circuitry with a loop gain up to (but never more than) an order of magnitude greater than this, I have of course taken the higher value to do the IPCC all the favors I can.
But the IPCC’s implicit loop-gain values – 0.4-0.8 – are simply way too high to be physically feasible in a climate that has exhibited such formidable temperature-stability for the best part of a billion years. They’re in the wrong ballpark altogether. Just look at my figure displaying the climate-sensitivity curve at various loop gains and you’ll see how absurdly close their values are to the point at which the equation gallops ever-more-steeply upward towards the singularity at a loop gain of 1.
So you could start by reading Bode, which is toughish going but comprehensive, and then move on to Roe (2009), who has a good discussion of the mathematical understanding of both linear and non-linear feedbacks. Then you need to talk to a process engineer: they know a lot more than climatologists do about the mathematics underlying feedbacks. You’ll get some idea of why this is so in the rather fascinating historical opening section of Roe’s paper.
Most climatologists wouldn’t even know what the loop gain in the climate system is. In fact it’s the product of the Planck parameter 0.3125 K/W/m2, discussed in these postings, and the simple sum of all unamplified feedbacks acting on the system (the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of the feedback-sum is 2.063). Multiplying the two gives the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of the loop gain 0.645, which is again absurdly high. Take this absurdity (which, if removed, constrains equilibrium climate sensitivity to little more than 1.2 K), note that this low climate sensitivity matches not only recent temperature trends but also several explicit and implicit climate sensitivities in the literature, and you will see where my admittedly rather telegraphic commentary is coming from. For further details, my longer paper explaining matters rather more fully is of course available.
Legatus says: “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better
experiment.” – Lord Ernest Rutherford
Rutherford inverted the proper time ordering. If your experiment needs statistics, use the results to design a better experiment.
Phil says: First the temperature at 5km above sea level is linked to the temperature at the surface via the lapse rate, if the temperature at 5km goes up so does that at the surface.
That’s the equilibrium case. With disequilibrium “forcings” provided daily by sunrise and sunset, cloud formation and precipitation, there may never be equilibrium. You could have the 5km and surface temperatures swing in opposite directions for a few hours (leading eventually to weeks and years), and the equilibrium assumption be wrong by only a few percent, yet useless for human planing.
Willis Eschenbach says:
September 29, 2011 at 11:01 am
Willis, you make eight great points about how climate sensitivity is inversely proportional to temperatures.
Is there any way we could get these phenomena into figures? Where would we start?
I’m sure the amount of data and number crunching would be huge, but could it be broken down and crowd-sourced?
It is such a compelling argument, and explains for me why we seem to go so quickly from glacial to interglacial and back, and yet why it is so relatively stable at either extreme. So if we could properly derive an overall climate sensitivity number (not the CO2 one, rather an indicator as to how quickly or forcefully the climate is reacting to events at a given time), would that give us any indication as to how far along the road we are in this interglacial? Does that make sense?
To expand on my point of the dolomitic rocks. I apologize for not being more clear about what diagenesis involves. Diagenetic dolomite is not formed at time of deposition; it is a mineralologic alteration which takes place sometimes long after deposition from reactions with circulating fluids within the rock.
The dolomitic rocks you refer to may well have been deposited with calcite or aragonite as the carbonate, in eqilibrium with a low CO2 atmosphere, and later altered to dolomite. The mere existence of dolomite tells us little about the atmosphere at time of deposition. Carbonate rocks are an amazingly open system throughout their geologic lives and without really detailed work their chemistry is a poor proxy for paleo- atmospheric makeup.
Just a minor point in your excellent article, but the only field in which I can contribute!
Here is why I believe we should look anew (actually, for the first time, as far as I know) at the central idea of CAGW, that increased CO2 will cause increased infrared, with all the effects said to follow.
“”Instead of applying observation to the things we wished to know, we have chosen rather to imagine them. Advancing from one ill founded supposition to another, we have at last bewildered ourselves amidst a multitude of errors….
…When matters have been brought this length, when errors have been thus accumulated, there is but one remedy by which order can be restored to the faculty of thinking; this is, to forget all that we have learned, to trace back our ideas to their source, to follow the train in which they rise, and, as my Lord Bacon says, to frame the human understanding anew.”” Lavoisier
We have chosen to imagine that increased CO2 causes CAGW. We have now been shown that there are major problems with this idea, as show by Christopher Monckton in the article above. That being the case, what, then, is the truth? Let us go back to the source of the idea. The source idea that underlies the whole theory is that increased CO2 results in increased infrared, all else follows AFTER that. However, we have NEVER applied observation to the thing we wished to know, we have never bothered to observe whether increased CO2 actually does result in increased infrared, not in a formal, wide ranging, scientific method using study.
Look at the history of the idea of CAGW, it started with an assumption by some guy 150 years ago, that increased CO2 would result in increased heat (only 1C) due to increased infrared. However, since then, has anyone bothered to actually check to see if there actually is increased infrared, to actually check if the original assumption is true by direct observation? We are looking at an idea exactly as described above “”Instead of applying observation to the things we wished to know, we have chosen rather to imagine them. Advancing from one ill founded supposition to another, we have at last bewildered ourselves amidst a multitude of errors”. Thus, the first thing we need to do is to point out to all and sundry that the basic assumption upon which all of this is based has never been directly observed, and from what I can see, has never even been attempted to be observed (odd that…). Having thus sown seeds of doubt in people’s minds, the next task is to do the observation ourselves, find and compile the data of infrared, and then present it, comparing the increase in CO2 to whatever increase or decrease or even lack of change of the infrared. If there is little or no rise in infrared when we know that there is rise of CO2 (as the limited data I now have suggests), we have then arrived at an idea which the great mass of people can use to replace the idea of CAGW which we have sown seeds of doubt about. After all, if we take away their old belief, we need to replace it with something.
Now, some of you may say “but they won’t listen”, well, for many, you may be right. Here is a very appropriate quote about that:
The object of the Author in the following pages has been to collect the most remarkable instances of those moral epidemics which have been excited, sometimes by one cause and sometimes by another, and to show how easily the masses have been led astray, and how imitative and gregarious men are, even in their infatuations and crimes,” wrote Charles Mackay in the preface to the first edition of his Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.” Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”
Thus, we see that it may take some time for the herds, slowly, one by one, to come to their senses. However, it has to start somewhere, why not here, “…the world’s most viewed climate website”? The poll numbers have already shown that the seeds of doubt are wall sown, it is now time to go for the throat, to aim at the central idea upon which the whole edifice of CAGW rests, and kick it out from under them. The result will be that the CAGW supporters whose jobs and power base are threatened by this will take desperate measures, and can be caught out at it, and poked fun at (as in the video investigation done by Anthony Watts). Result ” “If you want any discipline to shape up, first get it laughed at.” – Paul Harvey, and “If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem” Lincoln. However, I would suggest you get at it quickly, the proponents of CAGW have already gained considerable power, especially in government, and if they see their jobs threatened (as they are beginning to), they may remember what George Washington had to say “How soon we forget history … Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. and, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”. I can see a day, not very far off, when websites like this one are not allowed to exist. Make your hay while the sun shines.
Ok, here’s an analogy to make my point clear– picture a piece of silicate petrified wood. The original wood has been entirely replaced by silica but still looks like a log. It grew as a carbonaceous object, was buried, and slowly altered The chemical makeup of the silica tells us nothing of the atmosphere in which the tree grew. Such is the case with many dolomites. They reflect later alteration more than original depositional conditions.
While “1 K or not 1 K” is a question, it is not a scientific question. That the climate sensitivity is 1 K is a theory but it is not a scientific theory. Neither is the theory a scientific theory that the climate sensitivity has a value that is not 1 K.
The “climate sensitivity” is the increase in the equilibrium global surface air temperature from a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration. The equilibrum temperature is not an observable feature of the real world and it follows that the theory in which the climate sensitivity has a particular value, e.g. 1 K, is not refutable by observation. The susceptibility of a theory to refutation by observation is, however, the mark of a theory that is “scientific” in nature.
Monckton’s claim that
is simply wrong because the analysis in Kimoto 2009 is flawed. It is the analysis in Kimoto that will result in computations of Planck parameters that are no more likely correct than values drawn out of a hat.
I have posted specific challenge questions for Monckton.
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/monckton-in-your-own-words-explain-this/
The challenge questions are simple and should be readily answered by anyone who can understand the math and physical claims in the derivation of (18) in Kimoto. The flaws in this derivation were discussed in my previous post: Monckton has not addressed these flaws in any way whatsoever.
I would like Monckton, or anyone who thinks one can use equation (18) in Kimoto to compute Planck parameter– as Monckton has done to drop by and take the challenge. Those who know how to take derivatives and who took know how to solve very simple differential equations will quickly identify the assumptions in the derivation and come to recognize that the derivation of (18) has serious shortcomings.
The shortcomings cannot be overcome by ignoring them, writing “see Kimoto” or decreeing oneself correct.
I will be posting regarding other more nunaced issues touching on Moncktons claims in his current post at a later time.
*CO2 rose by 20% from 1950 to 2000 while temperature rose by 0.6 degrees. This probably underestimates equilibrium climate sensitivity because the effect is reduced by lags and increasing aerosols, but it still gives over 2 C per doubling as a sensitivity.
*The temperature rose 6-8 degrees coming out of the ice ages, which also indicates a high climate sensitivity (positive feedback) to albedo changes that can’t be explained by albedo alone.
*Paleoclimate shows 15 degree ranges for only 20-fold CO2 changes, consistent with sensitivities of 3-4 degrees per doubling.
Lucia,
Do you have to be so rude in addressing Christopher Monckton by his surname only? Especially on his own thread? If you try a little courtesy, perhaps he will respond to you, but I wouldn’t blame him if he didn’t.
Agree with Michael Larkin, Lucia is not being polite [probably because of her forced climb-down over the emails]. But she should really address Lord/Viscount Monckton by his title in her comments. At least once per post. That goes for everyone else, too.
Christopher Monckton and Willis Eschenbach;
Thanks to both of you for summing up some tremendously complex matters in language that almost anyone ought to be able to follow. One knows that one is winning the debate when your detractors descend into outbursts regarding tiny details while refusing to engage the larger issues.
There’s one point that I’d like to add that I’ve found also leaves the warmists with little to say, and that is to expand upon the fact that P (watts/m2) varies directly not with T (in degrees K) but with T raised to the power of 4. This implies a natural NEGATIVE feedback in and of itself that I rarely see addressed at all. Every degree of warming raises the number of watts/m2 to result in the next degree of warming. But there is a much more important (in my opinion) point that comes out of that.
At -40 degrees C, an additional 3.7 w/m2 would result in about 0.5 degrees of warming. At +40 degrees C, an additional 3.7 w/m2 would result in about 1.4 degrees of warming. The notion that the earth would warm 1 degree (or 1.1 or 1.9 or 6.8 or 0.0002 or whatever the actual number is) is a fallacy in and of itself. There is no such thing as an “average” increase in the earth’s temperature that is uniform.
Most of any actual warming would be at the lowest temperatures (where the biosphere gains the most benefit from both increased CO2 AND increased temperatures) and very little warming would occur at peak temperatures during the day (by comparison). So, the bulk of any warming would be at night time lows, at high latitudes, in winter. Day time highs in summer in low latitudes would change very little. The polar bears get to sleep through -36 instead of -40 and the palm trees must suffer day time highs of +38.5 instead of +38.0 to wind up with an “average” of plus one degree.
Ooooh…I’m scared.
Smokey says:
September 29, 2011 at 9:16 pm
Agree with Michael Larkin, Lucia is not being polite [probably because of her forced climb-down over the emails]. But she should really address Lord/Viscount Monckton by his title in her comments. At least once per post. That goes for everyone else, too.>>>
I’ve expressed my respect to Christopher Monckton which he has resoundingly earned. I see no need to refer to him according to an inherited title. Respect is earned, not demanded, that is what democracy is all about.
Lucia on the other hand has descended into minutia. As the saying goes, when you don’t know what you are doing, do it in excrutiating detail.
In reply to R. de Hann, Lord Monckton says, “when outgoing radiation in the right wavelengths of the near-infrared meets a molecule of a greenhouse gas such as CO2, it sets up a quantum resonance in the gas molecule, turning it into a miniature radiator. This beautifully clear analogy, when I recently used it in a presentation in New Zealand, won the support of two professors of climatology in the audience. The little radiators that the outgoing radiation turns on are not, of course, restricted only to radiating outwards to space. They radiate in all directions, including downwards – and that is before we take into account non-radiative transports such as subsidence and precipitation that bring some of that radiation down to Earth.”
Here’s another beautifully clear analogy that comes to the opposite inference:
The little radiators stuck to my microprocessor chip, otherwise known as a heat sink, both radiate and conduct heat from the hotter body to the colder in accordance with the 2nd Law. In a statistical sense is there ‘back-conduction’? Yes, but it is negligible. Is there ‘back-radiation’ from the heat sink to the microprocessor? Yes, but it does not heat the microprocessor because cold cannot heat hot. Now, what happens when I add more radiators [analogous to adding more GHGs] by putting a bigger heat sink on my microprocessor? The cooling rate INCREASES.
However, according to AGW proponents increasing the radiative surface area [such as with a bigger heat sink or adding more GHG radiators to the atmosphere] should DECREASE the rate of cooling.
Go figure
Smokey says:
September 29, 2011 at 9:16 pm
Agree with Michael Larkin, Lucia is not being polite [probably because of her forced climb-down over the emails]. But she should really address Lord/Viscount Monckton by his title in her comments. At least once per post. That goes for everyone else, too.
==============================
I caught that too, Smokey, and I agree with you 100%.
Lucia is a real lady and a smart one at that light years ahead of her time.
But in this case….why not show a little normal protocol respect to someone else as opposed to using their last name as if this were some sort of American football locker room conversation where last names are used on purpose?
He’s a lord and a viscount for christsakes even if you don’t understand the protocol…at least give it try.
Cheers,
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
@ur momisugly Christopher Monckton from Brenchley
Your wrote:
“R. de Haan cites an author whose opinion is that warming back-radiation returned from the atmosphere back to the surface and the idea that a cooler system can warm a warmer system are “unphysical concepts”. I know that the manufacturers of some infra-red detectors say the detectors do not measure back-radiation but something else: however, both Mr. de Haan’s points are based on a common misconception about what the admittedly badly-named “greenhouse effect” is. The brilliant Chris Essex explains it thus: when outgoing radiation in the right wavelengths of the near-infrared meets a molecule of a greenhouse gas such as CO2, it sets up a quantum resonance in the gas molecule, turning it into a miniature radiator. This beautifully clear analogy, when I recently used it in a presentation in New Zealand, won the support of two professors of climatology in the audience. The little radiators that the outgoing radiation turns on are not, of course, restricted only to radiating outwards to space. They radiate in all directions, including downwards – and that is before we take into account non-radiative transports such as subsidence and precipitation that bring some of that radiation down to Earth. So even the IPCC, for all its faults, is not (in this respect, at any rate) repealing the laws of thermodynamics by allowing a cooler system to warm a warmer system, which indeed would be an unphysical concept”.
My dear Christopher Moncktom from Brenchely,
I humbly disagree with your observation that my posting has been based on what you call a common misconception about what the admittedly badly-named “greenhouse effect” is.
May I invite you to have a read at the scientific publication by Professor Nasif Nahle.
Observations on “Backradiation” during Nighttime and Daytime
You can find the the publication here:
http://principia-scientific.org/publications/New_Concise_Experiment_on_Backradiation.pdf
I really would like to see your much appreciated response to his publication which includes a frontal attack on one of the basic equations used in the climate change discussion
P / 5.6704)^0.25 * 100 = K
The alternate equation makes the brilliant Chris Essex CO2 radiators even more irrelevant than they already are.
Also read:
“Do moths make a light bulb burn brighter” Derek Alker
http://noconsensus.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/derek-free-to-all-pdf-to-end-agw-scam-saturday-18_12-version.pdf
I am a great admirer of yours and I have followed all your recorded interviews, “climate fights” and publications over the past years. You’re truly one of our biggest Brothers in Arms and in my humble opinion the best debater of our times.
Thank you in advance for taking your precious time and trouble and thanks for all the work you have done fighting the consensus.
With the kindest regards,
Ron de Haan
He’s a lord and a viscount for christsakes even if you don’t understand the protocol…at least give it try.
Cheers,
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
I know many Americans love those titles, thinking them quaint, but many of us who grow up with inherited privilege are less fond of it.
I would no more address him as “Lord” in an informal setting than I would put “PhD” after Michael Mann’s name.