Monckton on "pulling Planck out of a hat"

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

My commentary written for Remote Sensing on the empirical determination of climate sensitivity, published by the splendid Anthony Watts some days ago, has aroused a great deal of interest among his multitudes of readers. It is circulating among climate scientists on both sides of the debate. Several of Anthony’s readers have taken the trouble to make some helpful comments. Since some of these are buried among the usual debates between trolls on how awful I am, and others were kindly communicated privately, I have asked Anthony to allow me, first and foremost, to thank those readers who have been constructive with their comments, and to allow his readers the chance to share the comments I have received.

Joel Shore pointed out that Schwartz, whose paper of 2007 I had cited as finding climate sensitivity to be ~1 K, wrote a second paper in 2008 finding it close to 2 K. Shore assumed I had seen but suppressed the second paper. By now, most of Anthony’s readers will perhaps think less ungenerously of me than that. The new .pdf version of the commentary, available from Anthony’s website (here), omits both Schwartz papers: but they will be included in a fuller version of the argument in due course, along with other papers which use observation and measurement, rather than mere modeling, to determine climate sensitivity.

Professor Michael Asten of Monash University helpfully provided a proper reference in the reviewed literature for Christopher Scotese’s 1999 paper reconstructing mean global surface temperatures from the Cambrian Era to the present. This, too, has been incorporated into the new .pdf.

Professor Asten also supplied a copy of a paper by David Douglass and John Christy, published in that vital outlet for truth Energy & Environment in 2009, and concluding on the basis of recent temperature trends that feedbacks were not likely to be net-positive, implying climate sensitivity ~1 K. I shall certainly be including that paper and several others in the final version of the full-length paper that underlies the commentary published by Anthony. This paper is now in draft and I should be happy to send it to any interested reader who emails monckton@mail.com.

A regular critic, Lucia Liljegren was, as all too often before, eager to attack my calculations – she erred in publishing a denial that I sent her a reference that I can prove she received; and not factually accurate in blogging that “Monckton’s” Planck parameter was “pulled out of a hat” when I had shown her that in my commentary I had accepted the IPCC’s value as correct. She was misleading her readers in not telling them that the “out-of-a-hat” relationship she complains of is one which Kiehl and Trenberth (1997) had assumed, with a small variation (their implicit λ0 is 0.18 rather than the 0.15 I derived from their paper via Kimoto, 2009); and selective in not passing on that I had told her they were wrong to assume that a blackbody relationship between flux and temperature holds at the surface (if it did, as my commentary said, it would imply a climate sensitivity ~1 K).

A troll (commenter on WUWT) said I had “fabricated” the forcing function for CO2. When I pointed out that I had obtained it from Myhre et al. (1998), cited with approval in IPCC (2001, 2007), he whined at being called a troll (so don’t accuse me of “fabricating” stuff, then, particularly when I have taken care to cite multiple sources, none of which you were able to challenge) and dug himself further in by alleging that the IPCC had also “fabricated” the CO2 forcing function. No: the IPCC got it from Myhre et al., who in turn derived it by inter-comparison between three models. I didn’t and don’t warrant that the CO2 forcing function is right: that is above my pay-grade. However, Chris Essex, the lively mathematician who did some of the earliest spectral-line modeling of the CO2 forcing effect, confirms that Myhre and the IPCC are right to state that the function is a logarithmic one. Therefore, until I have evidence that it is wrong, I shall continue to use it in my calculations.

Another troll said – as usual, without providing any evidence – that I had mis-stated the result from process engineering that provides a decisive (and low) upper bound to climate sensitivity. In fact, the result came from a process engineer, Dr. David Evans, who is one of the finest intuitive mathematicians I have met. He spent much of his early career designing and building electrical circuitry and cannot, therefore, fairly be accused of not knowing what he is talking about. Since the resulting fundamental upper limit to climate sensitivity is as low as 1.2 K, I thought readers might be interested to have a fuller account of it, which is very substantially the work of David Evans. It is posted below this note.

Hereward Corley pointed out that the reference to Shaviv (2008) should have been Shaviv (2005). Nir Shaviv – another genius of a mathematician – had originally sent me the paper saying it was from 2008, but the version he sent was an undated pre-publication copy. Mr. Corley also kindly supplied half a dozen further papers that determine climate sensitivity empirically. Most of the papers find it low, and all find it below the IPCC’s estimates. The papers are Chylek & Lohman (2008); Douglass & Knox (2005); Gregory et al. (2002); Hoffert & Covey (1992); Idso (1998); and Loehle & Scafetta (2011).

I should be most grateful if readers would be kind enough to draw my attention to any further papers that determine climate sensitivity by empirical methods rather than by the use of general-circulation models. I don’t mind what answers the papers come to, but I only want those that attempted to reach the answer by measurement, observation, and the application of established theory to the results.

Many thanks again to all of you for your interest and assistance. Too many of the peer-reviewed journals are no longer professional enough or unprejudiced enough to publish anything that questions the new State religion of supposedly catastrophic manmade global warming. Remote Sensing, for instance has still not had the courtesy to acknowledge the commentary I sent. Since the editors of the learned journals seem to have abdicated their role as impartial philosopher-kings, WattsUpWithThat is now the place where (in between the whining and whiffling and waffling of the trolls) true science is done.

The fundamental constraint on climate sensitivity

A fundamental constraint rules out strongly net-positive temperature feedbacks acting to amplify warming triggered by emissions of greenhouse gases, with the startling result that climate sensitivity cannot much exceed 1.2 K.

Sensitivity to doubled CO2 concentration is the product of three parameters (Eq. 1):

  • the radiative forcing ΔF2x = 5.35 ln 2 = 3.708 W m–2 at CO2 doubling (Eq. 2), from the function in Myhre et al. (1998) and IPCC (2001, 2007);
  • the Planck zero-feedback climate sensitivity parameter λ0 = 0.3125 K W–1 m2 (Eq. 3), equivalent to the first differential of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer in terms of mean emission temperature TE and the corresponding flux FE at the characteristic-emission altitude (CEA, one optical depth down into the atmosphere, where incoming and outgoing fluxes are identical), augmented by approximately one-sixth to allow for latitudinal variation (IPCC, 2007, p. 631 fn.);
  • the overall feedback gain factor G (Eq. 4), equivalent, where feedbacks are assumed linear as here, to (1 – g)–1, where the feedback loop gain g is the product of λ0 and the sum f of all unamplified temperature feedbacks f1, f2, … fn, such that the final or post-feedback climate sensitivity parameter λ is the product of λ0 and G.

 

The values of the first two of the three parameters whose product is climate sensitivity are known (Eqs. 2-3). The general-circulation models, following pioneering authors such as Hansen (1984), assume that the feedbacks acting upon the climate object are strongly net-positive (G 1: the IPCC’s implicit central estimate is G = 2.81). In practice, however, neither individual temperature feedbacks nor their sum can be directly measured; nor can feedbacks be readily distinguished from forcings (Spencer & Braswell, 2010, 2011; but see Dessler, 2010, 2011).

Temperature feedbacks – in effect, forcings that occur because a temperature change has triggered them – are the greatest of the many uncertainties that complicate the determination of climate sensitivity. The methodology that the models adopt was first considered in detail by Bode (1945) and is encapsulated at its simplest, assuming all feedbacks are linear, in Eq. (4). Models attempt to determine the value of each distinct positive (temperature-amplifying) and negative (temperature-attenuating) feedback in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of original warming. The feedbacks f1, f2, … fn are then summed and mutually amplified (Eq. 4).

Fig. 1 schematizes the feedback loop:

Planck-hat-rebuttal_Figure1

Figure 1. A forcing ΔF is input (top left) by multiplication to the final sensitivity parameter λ = λ0G, where g = λ0f = 0.645 is the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of the loop gain and G = (1 – g)–1 = 2.813 [not shown] is the overall gain factor: i.e., the factor by which the temperature change T0 = ΔF λ0 triggered by the original forcing is multiplied to yield the output final climate sensitivity ΔT = ΔF λ = ΔF λ0 G (top right). To generate λ = λ0 G, the feedbacks f1, f2, … fn, summing to f, are mutually amplified via Eq. (4). Stated values of λ0, f, g, G, and λare those implicit in the IPCC’s central estimate ΔT2x = 3.26 K (2007, p. 798, Box 10.2) in response to ΔF2x = 5.35 ln 2 = 3.708 W m–2. Values for individual feedbacks f1f4 are taken from Soden & Held (2006). (Author’s diagram from a drawing by Dr. David Evans).

The modelers’ attempts to identify and aggregate individual temperature feedbacks, while understandable, do not overcome the difficulties in distinguishing feedbacks from forcings or even from each other, or in determining the effect of overlaps between them. The methodology’s chief drawback, however, is that in concentrating on individual rather than aggregate feedbacks it overlooks a fundamental physical constraint on the magnitude of the feedback loop gain g in Eq. (4).

Paleoclimate studies indicate that in the past billion years the Earth’s absolute global mean surface temperature has not varied by more than 3% (~8 K) either side of the 750-million-year mean (Fig. 2):

Planck-hat-rebuttal_Figure2

Figure 2. Global mean surface temperature over the past 750 million years, reconstructed by Scotese (1999), showing variations not exceeding 8 K (<3%) either side of the 291 K (18 °C) mean.

Consistent with Scotese’s result, Zachos et al. (2001), reviewing detailed evidence from deep-sea sediment cores, concluded that in the past 65 Ma the greatest departure from the long-run mean was an increase of 8 K at the Poles, and less elsewhere, during the late Paleocene thermal maximum 55 Ma BP.

While even a 3% variation either side of the long-run mean causes ice ages at one era and hothouse conditions at another, in absolute terms the temperature homeostasis of the climate object is formidable. At no point in the geologically recent history of the planet has a runaway warming occurred. The Earth’s temperature stability raises the question what is the maximum feedback loop gain consistent with the long-term maintenance of stability in an object upon which feedbacks operate.

The IPCC’s method of determining temperature feedbacks is explicitly founded on the feedback-amplification equation (Eq. 4, and see Hansen, 1984) discussed by Bode (1945) in connection with the prevention of feedback-induced failure in electronic circuits. A discussion of the methods adopted by process engineers to ensure that feedbacks are prevented in electronic circuits will, therefore, be relevant to a discussion of the role of feedbacks acting upon the climate object.

In the construction of electronic circuits, where one of the best-known instances of runaway feedback is the howling shriek when a microphone is placed too close to the loudspeaker to which it is connected, electronic engineers take considerable care to avoid positive feedback altogether, unless they wish to induce a deliberate instability or oscillation by compelling the loop gain to exceed unity, the singularity in Eq. (4), at which point the magnitude of the loop gain becomes undefined.

In electronic circuits for consumer goods, the values of components typically vary by up to 10% from specification owing to the vagaries of raw materials, manufacture, and assembly. Values may vary further over their lifetime from age and deterioration. Therefore engineers ensure long-term stability by designing in a negative feedback to ensure that vital circuit parameters stay close to the desired values.

Negative feedbacks were first posited by Harold S. Black in 1927 in New York, when he was looking for a way to cancel distortion in telephone relays. Roe (2009) writes:

“He describes a sudden flash of inspiration while on his commute into Manhattan on the Lackawanna Ferry. The original copy of the page of the New York Times on which he scribbled down the details of his brainwave a few days later still has pride of place at the Bell Labs Museum, where it is regarded with great reverence.”

One circuit parameter of great importance is the (closed) feedback loop gain inside any amplifier, which must be held at less than unity under all circumstances to avoid runaway positive feedback (g ≥ 1). The loop gain typically depends on the values of at least half a dozen components, and the actual value of each component may randomly vary. To ensure stability the design value of the feedback loop gain must be held one or two orders of magnitude below unity: g <0.1, or preferably <0.01.

Now consider the common view of the climate system as an engine for converting forcings to temperature changes – an object on which feedbacks act as in Fig. 1. The values of the parameters that determine the (closed) loop gain, as in an electronic circuit, are subject to vagaries. As the Earth evolves, continents drift, sometimes occupying polar or tropical positions, sometimes allowing important ocean currents to pass and sometimes impeding or diverting them; vegetation comes and goes, altering the reflective, radiative, and evaporative characteristics of the land and the properties of the coupled atmosphere-ocean interface; volcanoes occasionally fill the atmosphere with smoke, sulfur, or CO2; asteroids strike; orbital characteristics change slowly but radically in accordance with the Milankovich cycles; and atmospheric concentrations of the greenhouse species, vary greatly.

In the Neoproterozoic, 750 Ma BP, CO2 concentration (today <0.04%) was ~30%: otherwise the ocean’s magnesium ions could not have united with the abundance of calcium ions and with CO2 itself to precipitate the dolomitic rocks laid down in that era. Yet mile-high glaciers came and went twice at sea level at the equator.

As in the electronic circuit, so in the climate object, the values of numerous key components contributing to the loop gain change radically over time. Yet for at least 2 Ga the Earth appears never to have endured the runaway greenhouse warming that would have occurred if the loop gain had reached unity. Therefore, the loop gain in the climate object cannot be close to unity, for otherwise random mutation of the feedback-relevant parameters of vital climate components over time would surely by now have driven it to unity. It is near-certain, therefore, that the value of the climatic feedback loop gain g today must be very much closer to 0 than to 1.

A loop gain of 0.1, then, is in practice the upper bound for very-long-term climate stability. Yet the loop gain values implicit in the IPCC’s global-warming projections of 3.26[2, 4.5] K warming in response to a CO2 doubling are well above this maximum, at 0.64[0.42, 0.74] (Eq. 8). Values such as these are far too close to the steeply-rising segment of the climate-sensitivity curve (Fig. 3) to have allowed the climate to remain temperature-stable for hundreds of millions of years, as Zachos (2001) and Scotese (1999) have reported.

Planck-hat-rebuttal_Figure3

Figure 3. The climate-sensitivity curve at loop gains –1.0 ≤ g < +1.0. The narrow shaded zone at bottom left indicates that climate sensitivity is stable at 0.5-1.3 K per CO2 doubling for loop gains –1.0 ≤ g ≤ +0.1, equivalent to overall feedback gain factors 0.5 ≤ G ≤ 1.1. However, climate sensitivities on the IPCC’s interval [2.0, 4.5] K (shaded zone at right) imply loop gains on the interval (+0.4, +0.8), well above the maximum loop gain that could obtain in a long-term-stable object such as the climate. At a loop gain of unity, the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation (Eq. 4), runaway feedback would occur. If the loop gain in the climate object were >0.1, then at any time conditions sufficient to push the loop gain towards unity might occur, but (see Fig. 2) have not occurred in close to a billion years (author’s figure based on diagrams in Roe, 2009; Paltridge, 2009; and Lindzen, 2011).

Fig. 3 shows the climate-sensitivity curve for loop gains g on the interval [–1, 1). It is precisely because the IPCC’s implicit interval of feedback loop gains so closely approaches unity, which is the singularity in the feedback-amplification equation (Eq. 4), that attempts to determine climate sensitivity on the basis that feedbacks are strongly net-positive can generate very high (but physically unrealistic) climate sensitivities, such as the >10 K that Murphy et al. (2009) say they cannot rule out.

If, however, the loop gain in the climate object is no greater than the theoretical maximum value g = 0.1, then, by Eq. (4), the corresponding overall feedback gain factor G is 1.11, and, by Eq. (1), climate sensitivity in response to a CO2 doubling cannot much exceed 1.2 K. No surprise, then, that the dozen or more empirical methods of deriving climate sensitivity that I included in my commentary cohered at just 1 K. If that is indeed the answer to the climate sensitivity question, it is also a mortal blow to climate extremists worldwide – but good news for everyone else.

References

Bode, H.W., 1945, Network analysis and feedback amplifier design, Van Nostrand, New York, USA, 551 pp.

Chylek, P., and U. Lohman, 2008, Aerosol radiative forcing and climate sensitivity deduced from the last glacial maximum to Holocene transition, Geophys. Res. Lett. 35, doi:10.1029/2007GL032759.

Dessler, A.E., 2010, A determination of the cloud feedback from climate variations over the past decade, Science 220, 1523-1527.

Dessler, A.E., 2011, Cloud Variations and the Earth’s Energy Budget, Geophys. Res. Lett. [in press].

Douglass, D.H., and R.S. Knox, 2005, Climate forcing by the volcanic eruption of Mount Pinatubo, Geophys. Res. Lett. 32, doi:10.1029/2004GL022119.

Douglass, D.H., and J.R. Christy, 2009, Limits on CO2 climate forcing from recent temperature data of Earth, Energy & Environment 20:1-2, 177-189.

Gregory, J.M., R.J. Stouffer, S.C. Raper, P.A. Stott, and N.A. Rayner, 2002, An observationally-based estimate of the climate sensitivity, J. Clim. 15, 3117-3121.

Hansen, J., A., Lacis, D. Rind, G. Russell, P. Stone, I. Fung, R. Ruedy, and J. Lerner, 1984, Climate sensitivity: analysis of feedback mechanisms, Meteorological Monographs 29, 130-163.

Hoffert, M.I., and C. Covey, 1992, Deriving global climate sensitivity from paloeclimate reconstructions, Nature 360, 573-576.

Idso, S.B., 1998, CO2-induced global warming: a skeptic’s view of potential climate change, Clim. Res. 10, 69-82.

IPCC, 2001, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Third Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Houghton, J.T., Y. Ding, D.J. Griggs, M. Noguer, P.J. van der Linden, X. Dai, K. Maskell and C.A. Johnson (eds.)]. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom, and New York, NY, USA.

IPCC, 2007, Climate Change 2007: the Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2007 [Solomon, S., D. Qin, M. Manning, Z. Chen, M. Marquis, K.B. Avery, M. Tignor and H.L. Miller (eds.)], Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom, and New York, NY, USA.

Kimoto, K., 2009, On the confusion of Planck feedback parameters, Energy & Environment 20:7, 1057-1066.

Lindzen, R.S., 2011, Lecture to the American Chemical Society, Aug. 28.

Loehle, C., and Scafetta, N., 2011, Climate change attribution using empirical decomposition of climatic data, Open Atmos. Sci. J. 5, 74-86.

Murphy, D. M., S. Solomon, R. W. Portmann, K. H. Rosenlof, P. M. Forster, and T. Wong 2009, An observationally-based energy balance for the Earth since 1950, J. Geophys. Res., 114, D17107, doi:10.1029/2009JD012105.

Myhre, G., E. J. Highwood, K. P. Shine, and F. Stordal, 1998, New estimates of radiative forcing due to well mixed greenhouse gases, Geophys. Res. Lett. 25:14, 2715–2718, doi:10.1029/98GL01908.

Paltridge, G., 2009, The Climate Caper, Connor Court, Sydney, Australia, 110 pp.

Roe, G., 2009, Feedbacks, Timescales, and Seeing Red, Ann. Rev. Earth. Planet. Sci. 37, 93-115.

Schwartz, S.E., 2007, Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of Earth’s climate system, J. Geophys. Res. 112, D24So5, doi:10.1029/2007JD008746.

Schwartz, S.E., 2008, Reply to comments by G. Foster et al., R. Knutti et al., and N. Scafetta on “Heat Capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of Earth’s climate system”, J. Geophys. Res. 113, D15015, doi: 10.1029/2008JD009872.

Scotese, C.R., A.J. Boucot, and W.S. McKerrow, 1999,  Gondwanan paleogeography and paleoclimatology, J. African Earth Sci. 28:1, 99-114.

Shaviv, N., 2005, On climate response to changes in the cosmic-ray flux and radiative budget, J. Geophys. Res., doi:10.1029.

Soden, B.J., and I.M. Held, 2006, An assessment of climate feedbacks in coupled ocean-atmosphere models. J. Clim. 19, 3354–3360.

Spencer, R.W., and W.D. Braswell, 2010, On the diagnosis of radiative feedback in the presence of unknown radiative forcing, J. Geophys. Res, 115, D16109.

Spencer, R.W., and W.D. Braswell, 2011, On the misdiagnosis of surface temperature feedbacks from variations in Earth’s radiant-energy balance, Remote Sensing 3, 1603-1613, doi:10.3390/rs3081603.

Zachos, J., M. Pagani, L. Sloan, E. Thomas, and K. Billups, 2001, Trends, Rhythms and Aberrations in Global Climate 65 Ma to Present, Science 292, 686-693.

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John Whitman
September 28, 2011 9:34 am

My Overview
Monckton says peer reviewed X says Y.
lucia says possibly X has errors about Y.
Monckton says read X.
lucia reads X and says errors in Y.
Author of X says . . .
Monckton says . . .
Commentors say . . .
I hope the discourse stays centered WUWT so we can track everything and benefit from 24/7 moderation and extended exposure.
John

September 28, 2011 9:36 am

Dewald says:
September 28, 2011 at 5:37 am
IMHO opinion the feedback discussions are moot.
Stating without mathematical proof but based on the fact that I can see the sun with my eyes: every molecule in earth’s atmosphere (gas, water vapor, particulates..) has a sight factor that is greater towards space than towards the earth or all other molecules in the atmosphere.
The temperature delta between said molecule and space is much greater that the temperature delta between said molecule and earth or other molecules.
The sight factor between the sun and the earth’s surface is much greater than the sight factor between the sun and and all the molecules in the atmosphere, based on the fact that I can see the sun with my eyes.
Therefore, this is all moot. Man can’t do anything to change the temperature of the atmosphere unless he can change the laws of electromagnetic radiation.

Since your eyes only function in the wavelength range ~0.35-0.8 μm your assertion is not well founded.

September 28, 2011 9:45 am

John

….lucia reads X and says errors in Y.

Precisely. In my post, I say that I would be interested in reading what Monckton or author of X says. Commenters at my blog are discussing X and the possible errors in Y. This impacts paragraph 3 in Monckton’s letter RS.

September 28, 2011 10:23 am

Legatus says: September 27, 2011 at 4:16 pm
CO2 has gone up.
For global warming to be true, this MUST result in increased infrared radiation.
There is the same or less infrared radiation.
Global warming is falsified.

(1) I’d love to see a post around this.
(2) I’d also luuuuuuurve Monckton to take on Miskolczi/Zagoni’s thesis. But Monckton’s theme is to use IPCC science against itself, as was said, hoist by own petards. I still have the strong feeling that Miskolczi has the correct science – and the only thing missing is an explanation that Joe Ordinary can understand (that means all technical details and esoterics need explaining in layman’s language). This would be such a gift to our grandchildren.
(3) Also I’d love to see Monckton or someone taking on and explaining in layman’s language “Bart’s” thesis (Climate Audit, Dessler 2010) that (IF I’ve understood aright) by analysing periodicities (? using FFT) and lags, one can show the direction of causation re. clouds / temperature very clearly.

September 28, 2011 10:49 am

kim says:
September 28, 2011 at 7:02 am
And so does Tom Vonk, whose mother tongue is not English, as is lucia’s.
================

kim,
For the human condition we all have a common mother language. It is body language.
Formal verbal language is always a second language for mankind.
If we were doing these discussions in person it would be easier to communicate due to the added body language factor. Understanding would be facilitated. : )
Personal Note – According to my American born native English speaking father, when I showed up at kindergarten in Upstate New York in the mid 1950’s the teacher said something like this to me, “Master Whitman please, I do not know what language mix you are using, but here we are going to speak English.” I thought my language was English, but it turned out to be a pigeon English/Polish mixture that was heavy on the Polish. The Polish was from my mother, any residual Polish is long since gone.
John

September 28, 2011 11:06 am

Kim–
I missed these direct questions and it seems no one answered. On this

Where did Monckton get his implication that Kiehl and Trenberth(1997) assumed a value of 0.18

This is a point Monckton would have to clarify.

and where are Trenberth’s updated numbers?

My impression is they are in “EARTH’S GLOBAL
ENERGY BUDGET by Kevin E. Trenberth, John T. Fasullo, and Jeffrey Kiehl”
march 2009
I googled and downloaded from “www.atmos.washington.edu/~ackerman/Trenberth_BAMS_2009.pdf”
This paper contains an updated figure (in color!) If you were to pick out the numerical values from this paper and stuff them into equation (18) in Kimoto, you would use the flux due to evapotranspiration is now estimated = 17 w/^2, the latent heat = 80 w/m^2 and the surface radiation = 396 w/m^2.
But my criticism of (18) is that the equation itself is unjustified. Using updated values for the fluxes wouldn’t change that criticism.

kim
September 28, 2011 11:33 am

Thanks again, lucia. Batter up.
=============

September 28, 2011 11:47 am

willis:
“Steven , that’s a bit obscure. Care to fill in the blanks? Is it regarding Lucia’s misunderstanding, which she (properly and correctly) acknowledged above?”
yes. It’s important to get the misunderstanding put aside and focus on the math.

September 28, 2011 11:51 am

James
“Wouldn’t it be easier if you and Lucia would assign a modicum of character to Chris Monckton and quit assuming and insinuating that he’s trying to hide or deceive something or someone?”
I wasnt insinuating anything. My initial reaction was. free the damn mails. Put that to rest. and get down to the real math questions. duh.

September 28, 2011 11:58 am

John
“I hope the discourse stays centered WUWT so we can track everything and benefit from 24/7 moderation and extended exposure.”
really? the problem here is that people will refuse to stay on topic. The topic at Lucias is paragraph 3 and only paragraph 3. paragraph 3 and nothing but paragraph 3. and the math of paragraph 3 and only the math of paragraph three. So if anybody can justify or explain the math of paragraph 3, including monkton, they are welcome to come and explain.
If the people here want to show that kind of discipline then yes it makes no difference where the conversation happens. But all too often you see people distract from the main topic and veer off.
like this comment of mine. which will not generate comments about math, but will instead generate comments about comments

Dave Wendt
September 28, 2011 1:04 pm

lucia says:
September 28, 2011 at 6:45 am
Dave Wendt
The closing of my post –which you quote– is not even remotely a criticism and I don’t know why you think it is.
I quoted that section not because I thought it was a criticism of Monckton, but because the writing in it was so obviously deficient. My point was meant to be a sort of “People who live in glass houses…”. I appreciate your measured response even if it was mostly off point, but I would think that the fact that you’ve felt compelled to respond to a number of commenters here should give you a better appreciation of Monckton’s lot in life. Monckton’s true counterparts in this arena are not the Climategate squad, they are Algore and and all his celebutard allies. For the skeptical community he is just about the only figure who can command media attention just by showing up. As such he is not only vastly outnumbered, but he faces a PR battlespace where the guardians are almost unanimously antagonistic. His real opponents command the highground because when the reports get published their blatherings about 20 foot sea level rises, Earth core temps in millions of degrees, and AGW causing everything from earthquakes to dandruff and ingrown toenails will be admiringly passed along without question, while every word from his mouth or pen will be subjected to much more scrutiny than even the most canonical works in the field.
I’ve spent more time rummaging about in the big dumpster of climate science than I like to think about and have yet to encounter a piece of “science” in which I couldn’t quite a number of points that I found questionable, very often not at the level of mathematical niceities that seem to be your focus, but at the level of basic premises and fundamental logic. I wouldn’t suggest that Monckton should be free from criticism, only that you consider that the mild kerfuffle you faced in this thread is several orders of magnitude less than what is his daily burden. The Lord can definitely seem a bit thinskinned, but from what I’ve observed he does try to respond in kind.

September 28, 2011 1:12 pm

Shevva;
David, excellent post. I hope more people caught it…
If I can add one small condition….
As CO2 levels increase, it becomes easier for biology and chemistry to use more of it….>>>
Thanks Shevva, and yes I agree with your comment. I refuse to get sucked into this who-said-what-when-and-who-was-worse-and-who-was-justified nonsense. It is meaningless and a complete distraction from the science.
I’ve started using this argument presented in a variety of ways, and I have yet to have ANYONE respond in opposition to it. The physics really is that simple, and makes the rest of the argument moot. In order for temperature response of the earth to be linear when CO2 is logarithmic, we’d have to see the following (based on doubling from 280 = +3 with feedbacks)
+100 PPM CO2, feedback 2X
+200 PPM CO2, feedback 3X
+300 PPM CO2, feedback 4X
+400 PPM CO2, feedback 5X
Now I didn’t do the exact math, I’m just guestimating, but the point is pretty plain. If the IPCC accepts that CO2 is logarithmic, then the ONLY way for temperature response to be linear is for the feedback levels to INCREASE as CO2 increases.
There is no plausible explanation in physics for feedbacks to increase to compensate for the direct effects of CO2 decreasing. No warmist or lukewarmist has ever answered my challenge to propose one. No warmist or lukewarmist has ever disputed my reasoning. They all get very quiet and change the subject if they answer at all.
This debate should have been over before it started. Not once have I seen the IPCC or anyone else even try and argue that sensitivity increases with concentration of CO2. They argue what the sensitivity actually IS, but not that it changes! So, if it doesn’t change:
1. It can’t be very high or going from 280 PPM to 400 PPM would have had drastic effects.
2. If it is low, then additional CO2 is meaningless.
Pick one warmists! Which one? 1. or 2.? Or argue that sensitivity changes as concentration increases despite direct effects decreasing if you want. But stop being cowards and ANSWER!

September 28, 2011 1:16 pm

Roger Knights says:
September 27, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Typo(s?)? in:
“… and atmospheric concentrations of the greenhouse species, vary greatly.”
There shouldn’t be a comma, I don’t think, and “species” doesn’t sound right.

George E. Smith [September 27, 2011 at 9:10 pm] commented, but did not justify his exception to Roger Knights’s comment. I shall try to elaborate a bit. First, species is to greenhouse as model is to make, or as token is to type. Taxonomists including the great Linnaeus adopted species with a specific (please pardon the etymological pun) subordinate relationship to genus, but many in the American English-speaking world accept that narrowed meaning exclusively. Some of us still use the word as it evolved millennia ago. Members of a category are its species.
Second is the matter of the errant comma. In American English up to shortly after World War II, a comma often separated a long or complicated subject noun phrase from the verb phrase in standard literary English. I still encounter it in some conservative writings in this country (where a comma is more than part of an emoticon), and even more often in British writing, though I never adopted it myself. It use has little to do with breathing, though, and much more to do with attempting to render the phrase structure of a long clause or sentence more obvious than it otherwise might be.

September 28, 2011 1:18 pm

Please amend in standard literary English to in standard literary usage.

kim
September 28, 2011 1:26 pm

You forgot one question, lucia. Where’s the rabbit of global warming?
Also, what about Tom Vonk’s point supra?
I agree with moshe. The math is on the blackboard for all students to see. Go fill your notebooks, cuz there’s a quiz in the morning.
=================

kim
September 28, 2011 1:34 pm

Oh, and dmh’s question above.
I agree with Shevva, too, and suspect that the biosphere has vast modulating effect.
====================

Monckton of Brenchley
September 28, 2011 1:37 pm

Many thanks to all who have made constructive postings on this thread. Anthony Watts has said that my full reply, which covers a great variety of interesting points from many commentators, must wait for publication until his very big news about the apparent fabrication of Al Gore’s CO2-warming “experiment” has had some time in the top slot.
For now, I shall merely say that I have stated plainly, both in my original commentary and in the posting that heads this thread, that the IPCC’s value for the Planck parameter is correct – a point that a blogger has not only withheld from her readers, misleading them from the headline onwards with the suggestion that I was using a value for the Planck parameter that was less than half the true value, but has repeatedly failed to acknowledge in this thread.
The reason for the single instance in which I used someone else’s value of the Planck parameter is explained in my original commentary with sufficient clarity to be understood by the specialist scientific audience for which it was written, and was explained clearly enough also to the blogger by email in response to her original email to me. This matter will be dealt with at greater length when my full reply is posted. In the meantime, please do not be distracted by suggestions that I have adopted an incorrect value for the Planck parameter. I haven’t, as will soon be made abundantly clear.

kim
September 28, 2011 1:42 pm

The plot thickens. Is Eq. 18 Ramanathan’s?
H/t Paul_K, scrawling on the blackboard.
=================

oxonmoron
September 28, 2011 2:04 pm

It’s useful to contrast Lucia’s blog with Dr Curry’s (climate etc). Dr Curry seems a very gracious lady and her blogs are invariably interesting, informative and well worth visiting.

September 28, 2011 2:10 pm

steven mosher says:
September 28, 2011 at 11:58 am
really? the problem here is that people will refuse to stay on topic. The topic at Lucias is paragraph 3 and only paragraph 3. paragraph 3 and nothing but paragraph 3. and the math of paragraph 3 and only the math of paragraph three. So if anybody can justify or explain the math of paragraph 3, including monkton, they are welcome to come and explain.
If the people here want to show that kind of discipline then yes it makes no difference where the conversation happens. But all too often you see people distract from the main topic and veer off.
like this comment of mine. which will not generate comments about math, but will instead generate comments about comments

—————————-
steven mosher,
It is my desire for the discourse to stay here. Yes.
I think the issues you are describing somewhat relate to the benefits of WUWT for the venue of Monckton & lucia discourse.
There is nothing that prevents main protagonists from staying focused on each other. The intellectual & scientific gene pool here is large enough to actually add to the main protagonist’s discourse.
Also, this is neutral territory.
John

kim
September 28, 2011 2:12 pm

Oops, time for me to clear out.
I find them equally gracious, equally curious, and equally bright, within the error bands, of course.
==============

kim
September 28, 2011 2:20 pm

Judy brooks more foolishness, though. Can’t babble on at lucia’s.
==============

September 28, 2011 3:31 pm

George

I appreciate your measured response even if it was mostly off point, but I would think that the fact that you’ve felt compelled to respond to a number of commenters here should give you a better appreciation of Monckton’s lot in life.

I enjoy interacting with people who discuss what I wrote. That’s why I blog. I would assume Monckton enjoys having people discuss what he wrote. That’s why he posted it here.

September 28, 2011 3:40 pm

Monckton

For now, I shall merely say that I have stated plainly, both in my original commentary and in the posting that heads this thread, that the IPCC’s value for the Planck parameter is correct – a point that a blogger has not only withheld from her readers, misleading them from the headline onwards with the suggestion that I was using a value for the Planck parameter that was less than half the true value, but has repeatedly failed to acknowledge in this thread.

I have no idea what you going on about. I quoted the following from your letter to RSS:

[…] For instance, [19] displays a flow-diagram for the energy budget of the Earth and its atmosphere, such that incoming and outgoing fluxes are shown to balance at the surface. The diagram shows surface radiation as 390 W m–2, corresponding to a blackbody emission at 288 K, equivalent to today’s mean surface temperature 15 °C. If the surface radiative flux were indeed the blackbody flux of 390 W m–2, then by differentiation of the fundamental equation of radiative transfer the implicit value of the Planck parameter λ0 would be ΔT /ΔF = T/4(F+78+24) = 0.15 K W–1 m2 (after including 78 W m–2 for evapo-transpiration and 24 W m–2 for thermal convection), whereupon, assuming feedbacks summing to the IPCC’s implicit central estimate 2.1 W m–2 K–1, equilibrium climate sensitivity ΔT2x = ΔF2x λ0 (1 – 2.1 λ0)–1 = 3.7(0.15)(1.5) = 0.8 K.

Where in you set forth a value of 0.15K W-1 m2, computed using T/4(F+78+24) = 0.15 K W–1 m2 and use it to compute ΔT2x = ΔF2x λ0 (1 – 2.1 λ0)–1 = 3.7(0.15)(1.5) = 0.8 K.
My post engages the method of computing that value of λ0=0.15 K W–1 m2. As for whether or not you “use” it, my post does not discuss it. But clearly, you use the value of to compute ΔT2x = ΔF2x λ0 (1 – 2.1 λ0)–1 = 3.7(0.15)(1.5) = 0.8 K.
If you think my post engages something else, I would invite you to find the material in my blog post, quote it.

September 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Kim

You forgot one question, lucia. Where’s the rabbit of global warming

I don’t understand this question and for that reason will not attempt any answer.

Also, what about Tom Vonk’s point supra?

Which point? It seems to me he wrote a long comment containing more than one point, and even broke into numbered topics to separate major issues.